Worship of Siva versus Worship of Lord Vishnu

June 17, 2005

(Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 10)

pramuJNcha dhanvanastvamubhayorArtniyorjyAm.h |

yAshcha te hasta ishhavaH parA tA bhagavo vapa ||

O Bhagavan ! You are endowed with great lordship and worship (by others). Untie the bow string from the two ends of Your bow. Abandon the arrows in Your hand.

BinduMadhav · June 17, 2005

Atanu Bhaiyya,

{RIG VEDA 10.191.3: SA VISHNU SA SHIVA SA RUDRA SO'KSHARA SAH}

This obviously refers to Sriman Narayana. He is Vishnu, So is He Rudra, He is Akshara, etc.

NarayanasUkta in MahAnArAyanOpanishad supports it: "Sa Brahmah Sa Shivah Sa Harih SEndrah SOksharah ParamasvarAt".

This means that Rudra is not Narayana. Narayana, really comes in the form of Rudra. So Rudra is a form of Narayana. This means that Rudra is not the Supreme, he is just one of them gods.

So, in this instance, I respectfully submit that you are wrong.

June 18, 2005

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Atanu Bhaiyya,

{RIG VEDA 10.191.3: SA VISHNU SA SHIVA SA RUDRA SO'KSHARA SAH}

This obviously refers to Sriman Narayana. He is Vishnu, So is He Rudra, He is Akshara, etc.

NarayanasUkta in MahAnArAyanOpanishad supports it: "Sa Brahmah Sa Shivah Sa Harih SEndrah SOksharah ParamasvarAt".

This means that Rudra is not Narayana. Narayana, really comes in the form of Rudra. So Rudra is a form of Narayana. This means that Rudra is not the Supreme, he is just one of them gods.

So, in this instance, I respectfully submit that you are wrong.

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Bindu, your post is about Shiva and Vishnu. Why suddenly you are talking about Narayana?

It is unfortunate that Narayana who is unlimited, indescribable has become an object of human mind. You understand object of human mind?

And you do not understand the followings:

shvetAshvatara upaniShad

eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH |

KAIVALYOPANISHAD, INCLUDED IN THE KRISHNA-YAJUR-VEDA.

7. Meditating on the highest Lord, allied to Uma, powerful, three-eyed, blue-necked, and tranquil, the holy man reaches Him who is the source of all, the witness of all and is beyond darkness (i.e. Avidya).

9. He alone is all that was, and all that will be, the Eternal; knowing Him, one transcends death; there is no other way to freedom.

23-24. For me there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor air, nor ether. Thus realising the Paramatman, who lies in the cavity of the heart, who is without parts, and without a second, the Witness of all, beyond both existence and non-existence – one attains the Pure Paramatman Itself.

25. He who studies the Shatarudriya, is purified as by the Fires, is purified from the sin of drinking, purified from the sin of killing a Brahmana, from deeds done knowingly or unawares. Through this he has his refuge in Shiva, the Supreme Self. One who belongs to the highest order of life should repeat this always or once (a day).

MAITREYOPANISHAD, INCLUDED IN THE SAMA-VEDA

III-12. I am of the form which fills everything, possessing the characteristics of Existence, Consciousness and Bliss. I am of the form of all holy places, I am the supreme Atman, I am Shiva.

MAHA NARAYANA UPANISHAD

I-70: ------- He dwells together with Uma (His power giving spiritual illumination) in the hearts of devotees which are holier than other parts of their body (the seat of the Divine) -----

II-2: I take refuge in Her, the Goddess Durga, who is fiery in lustre and radiant with ardency, who is the Power belonging to the Supreme --------

XIII-4: Narayana is the Supreme Reality designated as Brahman. Narayana is the highest (Self). Narayana is the supreme Light (described in the Upanishads). Narayana is the infinite Self. [Narayana is the most excellent meditator and meditation.]

XIII-5: Whatsoever there is in this world known through perception (because of their proximity) or known through report (because of their distance), all that is pervaded by Narayana within and without.

XIV-1: Verily Aditya is He; ------

XVI-1: [by these twenty-two names ending with salutations they consecrate the Sivalinga for all] – the Linga which are representative of Soma and Surya, and holding which in the hand holy formulas are repeated and which purifies all:

Nidhanapataye Namah !

Nidhanapataantikaya Namah !

Urdhvaya Namah !

Urdhva Lingaya Namah !

Hiranyaya Namah !

Hiranya Lingaya Namah !

Suvarnaya Namah !

Suvarna Lingaya Namah !

Divyaya Namah !

Divya Lingaya Namah !

Bhavaya Namah !

Bhava Lingaya Namah !

Sarvaya Namah !

Sarva Lingaya Namah !

Shivaya Namah !

Shiva Lingaya Namah !

Jvalaya Namah !

Jvala Lingaya Namah !

Atmaya Namah !

AtmaLingaya Namah !

Paramaya Namah !

Parama Lingaya Namah !

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XXIII-1: Supreme Brahman, the Absolute Reality, has become an androgynous Person in the form of Umamaheshvara, --------

XXIV-1: All this verily is Rudra. To Rudra who is such we offer our salutation. We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of creatures all that is indeed this Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

XXV-1: We sing a hymn that confers on us happiness in the highest degree to Rudra who is worthy of praise, who is endowed with the highest knowledge, who rains objects to the worshippers most excellently, who is more powerful and who is dwelling in the heart. Indeed all this is Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

LXXV-1: Salutations to Rudra, and to Rudra who is Vishnu. Guard me from death.

MAHA UPANISHAD

Iv-83-87. ---a desert all the water (in mirages) is an illusion – only the desert is real; (similarly) on reflection all the three worlds are nothing more than consciousness.

He who remains giving up what is implied and expressed, is Shiva himself, the best of the Brahman-Knowers. That un-decaying being is the substratum (of all), without comparison beyond words and mind, eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent and subtle.

When the pure knowledge of Brahman alone remains, it is pure consciousness and the being with such pure consciousness is undecaying substraum of all -- Shiva.

SRI BRAHMA SAMHITA Book 1 TEXT 8.

niyatih sa rama devi

tat-priya tad-vasam tada

tal-lingam bhagavan sambhur

jyoti-rupah sanatanah

ya yonih sapara saktih

kamo bijam mahad hareh

Devi is the desire, the seed, and the faculty of cognition of Hari – Mahat. And She, the Sakti – the regulator (Niyati) is under the control of lingam rupi eternal Bhagwan Shambhu. She is the potency of Mahat Hareh.

It is clear who and what controls the cognition apparatus of even Vishnu. What to talk of you. Impelled by Him alone all think and act. One who understands the mind of mind, one attains peace.

Rig Veda Book 6 HYMN XIII. Indra.

1. INDRA, when Soma juices flow, makes his mind pure and meet for lauds. He gains the power that brings success, for great is he.

20 That mind of Rudra, fresh and strong, moves conscious in the ancient ways, With reference whereto the wise have ordered this.

It is Indra's mind as well.

Never mind Bindu. Vishnu and Indra have the ancient mind of Rudra. If you do not have the consciousness of ancient Rudra, then you are unlucky really.

June 19, 2005

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YV vi. 5. 6.

------ The gods kept Rudra away from the sacrifice [2], he followed the Adityas; they took refuge in the creatures for two deities,

Adityas flee and take refuge in creatures.

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whenever the Vedas refer to Adityas and Rudras they refer to the devatas except Visnu and Rudradeva. why don't u understand 5this simple thing. Batta Baskara, Sayana, Madhva Acharyas, Sri Vaishnava Acharyas as well as Appaya Dikshita(a Shaivite) have accepted this. so if Adityas flee then that does not include Visnu.

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Yajur Veda i. 8. 15.

a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

b ------

c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu

d On the instigation of the Maruts may I conquer.

e Be mind ready.

f May I be united with power and strength. (Shiva and Shakti)

g Thou art the spirit of cattle; like them may my spirit be.

--

useless. these verses refer to the Yajamana of Rajasuya Yagna. what makes u think that Rudradva is mentioned here. ur assumption (Shiva & Shakti) is baseless. Upakrama Nyaya has to be followed.

the first three mantras praise the Yajamana.In the next three the Yajamana prays for favour.

also when the Yajamana is praised that thou art the stride of Visnu, it means that the Yajamana is powerful as His stride. Baskara has accepted it. But Atanu would not.

Mahanarayanopanishad: Namo Rudraya Vishnave....

atanu argues that the above verse means 'Salutations to Rudra who is Visnu'

this is misinterpretation and nothing else. Atanu knows English but no Sanskrit.

for if the verse meant so, then it should have been 'Namo Rudraya yascha Visnu... ' or 'Namo Rudraya vai Visnu...'

but the verse is clear 'Namo Rudraya Visnave.....'

'Rudraya' means 'to Rudra'(For advantage of Rudra')

'Visnave' means 'to Visnu'(For advantage of Rudra')

the meaning is clear but Atanu won't accept.

Siksha Valli of Taittreya Upanishad says,

'yatrasow KESHANTO vivarthathe'

this vakya is found in the mantra describing the Paramatma who resides in the hearts of the beings.

note the word 'KESHANTO'.

'Ka' refers to Brahmadeva. 'Isha' refers to Rudradeva. 'Anta' means end.

'KESHANTO' means 'One who brings an end to Brahmadeva and Rudradeva'.

thus it clearly says that someone else is the Samharaka of Brahmadeva and Rudradeva. the verse in which this vakya says about the God who resides in the hearts of beings. because the verse says that He is the Samharaka of Brahmadeva and Rudradeva, the deity cannot be Rudradeva.

Narayana Sukta says 'Padmakosha ............. Hridayanchapyatho Mukham'.

thus the deity in the hearts is Narayana and it is Narayana(Visnu) who is referred to as KESHANTA. also note that the name 'Narayana' refers only to Visnu.

also, in Harivamsa of Mahabharata (Ithihasa and hence a good pramana), Shiva himself says,

'KA iti Brahmano naama ISOHAM sarva dehinaam |

aavaam tavange samboothow tasmaat KESHAVA naamvaan ||'

Meaning :

'Ka' is a name of Brahmadeva. I am the 'Isa' of all bodies(note: only bodies and not souls). We both were born from Him and hence He is called 'Keshava'.

Based on this, it can be found that the above interpretation of 'KESHANTO' is absolutely correct. Let Atanu understand the truth.

verses in Sanskrit cannot be interpreted without following Sanskrit grammar.

when Adi Sankara said 'nahi nahi rakshati dukrinkarane' He wanted everyone to sing 'Bhaja Govindam' and also it is famous that the song was sung for an old Pundit who was still memorising grammar. but the same Sankara follows various grammar rules and nyayas in his Upanishad Bhasyas. but Atanu will not consider the way in which Sankara's commentaries are written in which he follows the grammar rules carefully.

Atanu does not need them for they are hurdles in his way to prove the contrary to what the Vedas say.

---

And these ignorant people say that Rudra is born of Brahma's semen.

This foolish guy is not spiritual. Do you think that you create your own semen? Semen and Milk, these two are the inexauhstible creations of God.

--

Vedas are saying so. Ravilochanan had just quoted from Vedas (Shatapatha Brahmana). Atanu is the one who does not understand. Atanu is the one who is ignorant. the verses have been given and let him try to reinterpret if he can. He will not do that for he cannot do that as the verses are clear .

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He has not reconciled with this shruti wherein it says Rudra gave birth to Hirayanagarbha. He simply has no time to reconcile his blindness to these.

Svet Up.

4.12

He, the creator of the gods and the bestower of their powers, the Support of the universe, Rudra the omniscient, who at the beginning gave birth to Hiranyagarbha—may He endow us with clear intellect!

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once again attained names cannot give a person the glories of the true owner of the name. the 'Rudra' mentioned here is not 'Rudradeva'.

Atanu has not reinterpreted the verses from Shatapatha. so he cannot object to the fact that Rudra's names are attained and not his natural names.

Atanu says that the above verse proves Rudradeva as the creator of Brahmadeva. but the verse clearly proves that the deity referred to is Narayana(Visnu).

MahaNarayana Upanishad says 'Narayanat Hiranyagharbo Jayate'. 'Narayana' name does not refer to Rudradeva. It refers only to Visnu and every Vedic Pundit will accept that. so it is clear that the deity referred to in the above verse is Visnu for 'Rudra' name is not a monopoly. if Atanu does not accept, the mistake is his. the truth is that 'Rudra' name refers to Narayana(Visnu) and if it is not taken so then Svetashvatara and MahaNarayana Upanishads will contradict each other. Vedas cannot contradict.

also Rudra and Narayana cannot be one and same. because Rudra says in Shatapatha that he is 'Anapahatapaapma'(not cleansed of sins). Subala Upanishad says '.....Apahatapaapma divyo deva eko Narayana' and thus Narayana is Apahatapaapma(untouched by sins). thus Rudra and Narayana cannot be one and the same and neither can Rudra be an avatar of Narayana.

also MahaNarayana Upanishad says

'Narayanat Ekadasha Rudro Jayate'

(ie) from Narayana the 11 Rudras were born. by clearly saying '11 Rudras'(Ekadasha Rudras) the Upanishad has laid out that Rudradeva too was born from Narayana. and it has been proved above that Rudradeva cannot be an avatar of Narayana. so the fact is established.

--

XXIII-1: Supreme Brahman, the Absolute Reality, has become an androgynous Person in the form of Umamaheshvara, --------

----

now it has been established that Rudradeva is not an avatar of Parambrahmah Narayana. then the above verse can also be easily interpreted. the Sruti say that Brahman wished 'Let me take many forms' and thus He created the world.

In BG Krishna says that He is shark among fishes etc. thus here it is clear that the above verse refers to the glories of Narayana and Rudra is one of them. Visnu and Ramachandra are also declared as His glories. but all avatars are also glories. but all glories are not avatars. or then lions and sharks as well as Garuda have to be considered as avatars which is not possible. if Atanu does not understand, it is his ignorance and nothing else.

June 19, 2005

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You people are expert in using uncivil language like hypocrite etc.

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I have viewed various earlier posts made by u. u do not have any right to say this for u r receiving what u gave to others.

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Namo Agriyaya cha prathamaya cha

If agriyaya was first born (as you say, then there was no need for prathamay cha.

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Ravilochanan had said that 'Agriyaya' means first. he never said first born. First born was Brahmadeva and not Rudradeva.

these verses do not establish the Supremacy of Rudradeva in anyway. also Shatapatha says that Rudra was nameless when he was born and that he got his names from Brahmadeva. so these names are attained names. they do not matter much.

also shatarudriya itself says that Rudra was born from Brahmadeva's tears. but Atanu will not consider those verses. the difference between Shailali,Shatapatha and Satarudriya Brahmanas is that all the three say that Rudra was born from Brahmadeva but in different ways. the difference can be easily sorted out as it can be taken that these verses refer to Rudrotpatthi of different Kalpas.

Atanu must understand these things.

June 19, 2005

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You have conveniently misplaced self resplendent in the first verse. And you have conveniently removed 'for these songs' in the third verse.

If it was not so, then there is no point of using 'in as much as' in the second verse

Next time around, remove 'inas much as also'.

in every post your translations are differing.

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whatever Ravilochanan has done ir right as per Sanskrit as well as Nyayas.

your thinking regarding 'In as much as' is also wrong.

'for these songs' - the term has been explained with their intent made clear as follows:

".......... Rodasi_, the Maruts, and Vis.n.u are worshipped (by us). "

'for these songs' are sung by us to worship these deities.

the first verse praises Rudra and mounted Maruts.

the second verse by 'in as much as' conveys that the deities mentioned there also are praised so.

the third verse conveys that the deities mentioned are worshipped by the songs sung.

11 For these songs, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

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Atanu says '......claim and merit praise'. It can also mean that the praises for Rudra and other deities mentioned above are due to these deities and hence for these songs these deities of the 11th verse and hence they claim praise for themselves .

though Atanu's translation is misinterpretation, it can be meant in the above manner also. so if we take such a meaning then Atanu has defeated his cause by himself.

as for the change in the in terpretation of Purusha sukta's 17th mantra, Ravilochanan has given the reason that he had made punctuation mistakes (a comma was put instead of a full stop). atanu does not have any proper arguments and hence he is referring to these to get himself out of this tangle.

even when his interpretations are proved wrong, Atanu will smply repeat his earlier interpretations and say that only his interpretations are right. he will not give any reasons and will just say that whatever has been given by the other party is wrong. this shows that he does not know the basic manner of arguments. it will be a waste of time to argue with such incapable persons.

June 19, 2005

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Cheaters and liars. To provide ammunition to delusions these so-called bhaktas go to any extent.

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these words are fit only for Atanu himself.

the verses have been given. if Atanu does not accept the interpretation then let him try to reinterpret.

Ravilochanan has not told the incident by his own imagination but has quoted from Sruti(Taittreya Aranyaka).

Atanu's emotional outbursts will not prove the above verse wrong. Sruti can never be false and it clearly says that Rudra's heads were severed by Indra.

let Atanu reconcile with this reality.

There is an upAkhyAna to this effect also (atredaM kilopAkhyAnam.h)

In some kalpa, Indra without telling other gods, meditating upon Lord Narayana, started a sacrifice. Then the Gods sent Rudra to spoil that yajna.When Rudra created havoc there, Indra meditated upon the Lord. Then Vishnu's

chakra reached Indra and beheaded Rudra. Later he was brought to life due to Parvati praying the Lord.

Narayana Parambrahmah

also Mahanarayana Upanishad says,

sarvabhUtasthamekaM nArAyaNaM kAraNarUpaM shokamohavinirmuktaM viShNuM

dhyAyan.h | shrIdadhAti...

and thus rules out the possibility of Vishnu ever getting deluded (viShNormoha atyantAbhAvasya evAvedanAchcha).

this verse clearly proves that Visnu is beyond delusion which is an essential attribute of Brahman.

The following lines in the nR^isimha-tApanIya Upanishad :

eSha dehAnte tamasaH paramaM dhAma prApnuyAt.h | yatra virajo nR^isimho

bhAsate tatra upAsate | tasadR^ishA munayaH

talk of Lord Narasimha being located in 'paramaM dhAma' (Moksha sthAna: vaikuNTha). At the beginning of tApanIya Upanishad, in the line "kevalaM jyotirekamanAdyanantaM", Lord Narasimha is said to be devoid of a beginning and an end.

The Smriti:

brahmaNamindraM rudraM cha yamaM varuNameva cha |

nihatya harate yasmAttasmAddharirihochyate ||

"On the account of being the destroyer (nihatya harate yasmAt) of Brahma,Indra, Rudra, Yama and Varuna, he is called 'Hari'."

clarifies that the very word, Hari, indicates His being the destroyer and not the destroyed.

More so, in the shruti

'hariM harantamanuyanti devAH | vishvasyeshAnaM

vR^iShabhaM matInAM'

Rudra (conveyed by the word 'IshAna') is said to be

killed by Hari. The Devas follow that Hari, who destroys (harantaM) Rudra.

let Atanu reconcile to the reality .

June 19, 2005

Saranathan has become guest. He has become others. Like Lord he acts.

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RV 8.012.27 When Visnu, through thine energy, strode wide those three great steps of his, Then thy two beautiful Bay Steeds carried thee on.

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RV 8.012.27 When your (younger brother) Visnu by (his) strength stepped his three paces, then verily your beloved horses bore you.

Against the RV verse, the guest gives his translation (claiming this to be Sayana’s. As if Sayana wrote in English.

Let it be like that. God takes care of the truth as always. As per guest’s translation, Visnu is younger brother of Indra, who is born of Manyu (Shiva). So, Param Atma is younger brother of Indra. Ha Ha.

BRAHMAN, WHO IS ONE WITHOUT A SECOND IS YOUNGER BROTHER OF THE LORD OF HEAVENS AND HAS A BIRTH.

HA. HA.

And further that the translation of guests et al are ill motivated is clear from these:

Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XV. Indra.

1. SING forth to him whom many men invoke, to him whom many laud. Invite the powerful Indra with your songs of praise.

2 -----

9 Visnu, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise: In thee the Maruts' company have great delight.

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Book 10 HYMN CXTII. Indra.

1. THE Heavens and the Earth accordant with all Gods encouraged graciously that vigorous might of his. When he came showing forth his majesty and power, he drank of Soma juice and waxed exceeding strong.

2 This majesty of his, Visnu extols and lauds, making the stalk that gives the meath flow forth with might

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7.100.03 This deity, by his great power, traversed with three (steps) the many-lustrous earth; may Vis.n.u, the most powerful of the powerful rule over us, for illustrious is the name of the mighty one.

note: Rudra is praised as powerful and so also Indra,Agni etc. But Visnu is the 'Most Powerful of the Powerful.'

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Wishful thinking.

HYMN XXXIII. Rudra.

3 Lord of all beings art thou in glory, Rudra, armed with the thunder, MIGHTIEST OF THE MIGHTY. Transport us over trouble to well-being repel thou from us all assaults of mischief.

9 With firm limbs, multiform, the strong, the tawny adorns himself with bright gold decorations: THE STRENGTH OF GODHEAD NEVER DEPARTS FROM RUDRA, HIM WHO IS SOVRAN OF THE UNIVERSE, THE MIGHTY.

Note: Rudra has been described as mightiest of the mighty and not as powerful. And the strenghth of God Head is His.

*******

Siksha Valli of Taittreya Upanishad says,

'yatrasow KESHANTO vivarthathe'

this vakya is found in the mantra describing the Paramatma who resides in the hearts of the beings.

note the word 'KESHANTO'.

'Ka' refers to Brahmadeva. 'Isha' refers to Rudradeva. 'Anta' means end.

************

This is the beauty of Vaisnav grammar. They can, like magic, make any meaning from anything. Yes it a power only available with staunch Vaisnavs.

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Svet Up.

4.12

He, the creator of the gods and the bestower of their powers, the Support of the universe, Rudra the omniscient, who at the beginning gave birth to Hiranyagarbha—may He endow us with clear intellect!

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once again attained names cannot give a person the glories of the true owner of the name. the 'Rudra' mentioned here is not 'Rudradeva'.

***************

As usual this is the classic beauty of Vaisnav mind.

Svet. Up. 4.12

He, the creator of the gods and the bestower of their powers, the Support of the universe, Rudra the omniscient, who at the beginning gave birth to Hiranyagarbha—may He endow us with clear intellect!

Rudra in above verse does not refer to Rudra. Ha. Ha.

Be happy with your self delusion. Who stops you?

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'Narayanat Ekadasha Rudro Jayate'

(ie) from Narayana the 11 Rudras were born. by clearly saying '11 Rudras'(Ekadasha Rudras) the Upanishad has laid out that Rudradeva too was born from Narayana. and it has been proved above that Rudradeva cannot be an avatar of Narayana. so the fact is established.

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The guest has elsewhere said Adityas and Vishnu are not same. And Rudras and Rudra are not the same.

But now for convenience, Rudra is made same as 11 Rudras.

In that case, reconsider this:

YV vi. 5. 6.

------ The gods kept Rudra away from the sacrifice [2], he followed the Adityas; they took refuge in the creatures for two deities,

Adityas flee and take refuge in the creatures. What a shame. This is Daksha Yagna story.

But it does not end here. Who are the Rudras?

HYMN LXXVII. Maruts.

2 The youths have wrought their ornaments for glory through many nights,-this noble band of Maruts. Like stags the Sons of Dyatis have striven onward, the Sons of Aditi grown strong like pillars.

MARUTS ARE SONS OF DITI (DYATI) AND ADITI.

RV HYMN CLXVI. Maruts.

1. ---- With fire upon your way, O Maruts loud of voice, with battle, Mighty Ones, achieve your deeds of strength.

2 Bringing the pleasant meath as 'twere their own dear son, they sport in sportive wise gay at their gatherings. The Rudras come with succour to the worshipper; self-strong they fail not him who offers sacrifice.

Note: The above make it abundantly clear that, Maruts are Rudras. They are brothers of Indra. And Vishnu is also a Marut --- the Evayamarut.

HYMN CLXX. Indra. Maruts.

2 The Maruts are thy brothers. Why, O Indra, wouldst thou take our lives?

HYMN LXXXVII. Maruts.

4 HE OF THE MIGHTY STRIDE FORTH STRODE, EVAYAMARUT, ----

7 SO MAY THE RUDRAS, MIGHTY WARRIORS, EVAYAMARUT, WITH SPLENDID BRILLIANCY, LIKE FIRES, BE OUR PROTECTORS; -----

8 COME IN A FRIENDLY SPIRIT, COME TO US, O MARUTS, AND HEAR HIS CALL WHO PRAISES YOU, EVAYAMARUT. LIKE CAR-BORNE MEN, ONE-MINDED WITH THE MIGHTY VISNU, KEEP ENMITY FAR FROM US WITH YOUR DEEDS OF WONDER.

And wherefrom these Maruts-Rudras had their birth?

HYMN LXIV. Maruts.

2 They spring to birth, the lofty Ones, the Bulls of Heaven, divine, THE CHILDREN OF RUDRA, ---

3 YOUNG RUDRAS, demon-slayers, never growing old, they have waxed, even as mountains, irresistible. They make all beings tremble with their mighty strength, even the very strongest, both of earth and heaven.

12 THE PROGENY OF RUDRA WE INVOKE WITH PRAYER, ------

HYMN LXXXV. Maruts.

1. THEY who are glancing forth, like women, on their way, doers of mighty deeds, swift racers, RUDRA'S SONS, THE MARUTS have made heaven and earth increase and grow: in sacrifices they delight, the strong and wild.

HYMN LIX. Maruts.

8 May Dyaus, the Infinite, roar for our banquet: may Dawns toil for us, glittering with moisture. Lauded by thee, these Maruts, SONS O RUDRA, O RSI, HAVE SENT DOWN THE HEAVENLY TREASURE.

So Young Rudras , who are Maruts, are the progeny of Rudra (Dyaus).

SO, WHEN YOU CITE:

'NARAYANAT EKADASHA RUDRO JAYATE', YOU YOURSELF PROVE THAT NARAYANA IS RUDRA (OF VEDA SAMHITA). AND SATA RUDRIYA IS IN VEDA SAMHITA AND NOT IN BRAHMANAS, WHICH ARE INTERPRETATIONS (AND WHICH VARY A LOT). IN SAMHITA IT IS PURUSHA WHOSE HYMNS ARE WRITTEN BY RISHI NARAYANA.

RUDRA IS PURUSHA OF VEDAS WITH THOUSAND ARMS AND THOUSAND EYES DIRECTLY (AND NOT BY THE STRENGTH OF BEING PARAM PADAM).

RV HYMN XC. Purusa.

1. A THOUSAND heads hath Purusa, a thousand eyes, a thousand feet. On every side pervading earth he fills a space ten fingers wide.

-------------

13 The Moon was gendered from his mind, and from his eye the Sun had birth; Indra and Agni from his mouth were born, and Vayu from his breath.

14 Forth from his navel came mid-air the sky was fashioned from his head Earth from his feet, and from his car the regions. Thus they formed the worlds.

---------

YV

namo astu nIlagrIvAya sahasrAxAya mIDhushhe |

atho ye asya sattvAno .ahaM tebhyo .akaraM namaH ||

Salutations be to the blue-throated, He who has a thousand eyes and who showers blessings as Parjanya. Also, I bow to His followers, the pramatha- gaNas.

Sahasrani sahasradha bahuvostava hetayah |

Tasamishano bhagavah parachina mukha krudhi ||

In your arms exist thousands of kinds of weapons in thousands of numbers. But Bhagavan, You art Lord and master of them. Turn their hurtful faces away from us.

Bhagavan Nilgriva is described as with thousand arms and thousand eyes in Yajur Veda (Sata Rudriya) as in Purusha Sukta above. And Bhagavatam describes who is the father of planets, and whose eyes are sun and and Moon. And who is directly situated as Param Brahman.

Bhagavatam (Churning of ocean)

24. You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, Supreme Brahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation.

Note: Supreme Brahman

25. O lord, you are the original source of Vedic literature. You are the original cause of material creation, the life force, the senses, the five elements, the three modes and the mahat-tattva. You are eternal time, determination and the two religious systems called truth [satya] and truthfulness [rta]. You are the shelter of the syllable om, which consists of three letters a-u-m.

26. O father of all planets, learned scholars know that fire is your mouth, the surface of the globe is your lotus feet, eternal time is your movement, all the directions are your ears, and Varuna, master of the waters, is your tongue.

27. O lord, the sky is your navel, the air is your breathing, the sun is your eyes, and the water is your semen. You are the shelter of all kinds of living entities, high and low. The god of the moon is your mind, and the upper planetary system is your head.

End of citation

And Lord Hanuman is a Marut. Vishnu and Indra have Lord Ship because of service from Rudras. Become spiritual. Do not cultivate hatred for the one who is showers all boons.

Or keep on spreading ill words at your own peril. Visnu himself is Evayamarut and He will take care.

If you don’t feel your eyes going wet at: “--- these Maruts, SONS O RUDRA, O RSI, HAVE SENT DOWN THE HEAVENLY TREASURE”, then you are not fit to be a bhakta at all. You people are merely acting as Dasas.

HYMN LVII. Maruts.

7 Vouchsafe to us, O Maruts, splendid bounty in cattle and in steeds, in cars and heroes. Children of Rudra, give us high distinction: may I enjoy your Godlike help and favour.

If the Maruts-Rudras provide God like help then what is Rudra, their father?

HYMN LVIII. Maruts.

1. Now do I glorify their mighty cohort, the company of these the youthful Maruts, Who ride impetuous on with rapid horses, and radiant in themselves, are Lords of Amrta.

If sons of Rudra are Lords of Amrta, then what is Rudra?

HYMN LX. Maruts.

7 O MARUTS, LORDS OF ALL, when Agni and when ye drive downward from sublimest heaven along the heights, Shakers of all, rejoicing, slayers of the foe, give riches to the Soma-pressing worshipper.

If Maruts are Lords of all, then what is Rudra?

Some people without having read Vedas, insult the God of Veda Samhita, taking their limited knowledge as final. We have had enough of insulting Vedas. Lord, please stop it now.

Narad Pancharatra:

Shivo Harirhariha Shakshatchiva Eva Nirupitaha |

Shivadveshi Haridrohi Vishnum Nityam Bhajanapi ||

‘Shiva is Hari and Hari is none other than Shiva. An enemy of Shiva is an enemy of Hari, even though he may daily worship Vishnu.’

June 19, 2005

Lord Shiva has been described as Param Brahman in Bhagavatam.

Bhagavatam (Churning of ocean)

24. You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, Supreme Brahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation.

He has been praised as one who yields to no second and as Bhagavan in Yajur Veda Samhita

Sahasrani sahasradha bahuvostava hetayah |

Tasamishano bhagavah parachina mukha krudhi ||

Yajur Veda i. 8. 6. d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second

He is the Akshara (undecaying) father of all in Rig Veda samhita

Rig Veda 10.191.3: sa vishnu sa shiva sa rudra so'kshara sah

RV Book 6 HYMN XLIX. Visvedevas.

10 Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father. Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us.

And who has been described as one without a second in Shruti:

shvetAshvatara upaniShad

eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH |

Such an undecaying akshara Lord has been killed thrice by zealots: once through Vak (in another post), then through Indra, and then through Hari. All by one zealot, I guess.These zealots alter scriptures as per their requirement.

Can one ever match such shameful insult to sacred literature? And most readers are silent. They talk of matching the onslaught of Christians and Moslems.

June 19, 2005

Loads of junk posted on this topic could have been avoided had the names of the guest been as 'guest'.

Fellow Vaishnavas & Bindu have a lot of respect for a few advaithins and then they begin dumping their junk upon them.

Thereafter it's a pretention of keeping the subject of their posts very sporty & then going on & on.

Please give guest names to these vaishnavas only if they want to sell you a vacuum cleaner and if you need one.

June 19, 2005

Yajur Veda i. 8. 6. d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

BinduMadhav · June 20, 2005

Atanu Bhaiyya,

You wrote:

-------------------

Yajur Veda i. 8. 6. d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

-------------------

Bhaiyya, I agree that Rudra yields to no second, but only among the gods. But there is no comparison between Lord Krishna Vasudeva and Siva. Lord Krishna easily defeated Siva and it was only Siva's prayers that protected his protege (Banasura). What sayest thou, Bhaiyya?

June 20, 2005

Bindu you are old news to this forum, you have become bored. Maybe you should visit Christian, Muslim forums and spark your arguments with them. Maybe you will be doing a favour to the Hindu community.

BinduMadhav · June 20, 2005

Dear Atanu Bhaiyya,

You wrote:

------------

Can one ever match such shameful insult to sacred literature? And most readers are silent. They talk of matching the onslaught of Christians and Moslems.

-------------

Atanu, my dear friend, please don't be so angry. You know in the depth of your heart (where you claim Siva resides) that Ravilochanan, Srinivasan and other great scholars are putting forth arguments in favor of Lord Vishnu, not to put down Rudra deva, who deserves venerance, but purely to highlight the greatness of the Supreme Lord. No one is distorting the Vedic literature.

If you believe Siva to be the Supreme Lord, I will respect your beliefs. It is just that I am convinced that our literature portrays him as such, after reading your posts. That is all.

June 20, 2005

******* but he is not God ***********

Oh! this is new knowledge. Thanks. Isha is not God. And are Bhagwan and God two different beings? May be Mr. Madhav is correct.

Anyway, thanks.

Vikirida vilohita Namaste astu bhagavaha, Yaste sahasragam hetayo nyamasmanniva pantu tah ||

Sahasrani sahasradha bahuvostava hetayah |

Tasamishano bhagavah parachina mukha krudhi ||

pramuJNcha dhanvanastvamubhayorArtniyorjyAm.h |

yAshcha te hasta ishhavaH parA tA bhagavo vapa ||

And while Krishna was fighting Banasura, Lord Shiva yawned and yawned. Amusing story. Speaks a lot about leela of Bhagavo.

Bhagavatam

Kansa had sent a cruel ogress Pootana to kill all the newly born babies in his kingdom. ----------. Lord Krishna was only six days old then.

Pootana's breasts were filled with poison. Such as someone lifts a sleeping snake mistaking it for a rope. Similarly Pootana lifted the baby who proved her death. Pootana took the baby to secluded place and began to breast feed him. Lord Krishna prayed to Lord Shiva who came to stay in His throat and drank all the poison from the milk.

June 20, 2005

MAITRAYANA-BRAHMAYA-UPANISHAD

10. The devas and the demons, wishing to know the Self, went into the presence of Brahma . Having bowed before him, they said: ‘O blessed one, we wish to know the Self, do thou tell us.' Then, after having pondered a long while, he thought, these demons are not yet self-subdued; therefore a very different Self was told to them (from what was told to the devas).

On that Self these deluded demons take their stand, clinging to it, destroying the true means of salvation (the Veda), preaching untruth. What is untrue they see as true, as in jugglery. Therefore, what is taught in the Vedas, that is true. What is said in the Vedas, on that the wise keep their stand. Therefore let a Brahman not read what is not of the Veda, or this will be the result.

Yajur Veda i. 8. 6. d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

Sita Upanishad, included in the Atharva-Veda

4. The letter sa denotes truth immortal;

Achievement; Siva with his consort.

BinduMadhav · June 21, 2005

My dear guest,

You wrote:

-----------------------------

Bindu you are old news to this forum, you have become bored. Maybe you should visit Christian, Muslim forums and spark your arguments with them. Maybe you will be doing a favour to the Hindu community.

----------------------------

You are perhaps right. I am bored that I am listening to the same old arguments about the greatness of Siva. There is nothing new in Atanubhai's arguments.

All the same, I am very grateful (almost gleeful) that such passionate arguments are put forth by both my fellow Vaishnavites and my enemy (grin), i.e., my buddies in the Saivite community. Such debates lead to more understanding by all the parties.

The only thing is someone has to summarize the entire thread. If no one else will do it, I will do it myself in the next few weeks.

But go to a Christian or Muslim forum? Thanks, no. I may have my differences with my Hindu friends, but I love them and I would rather listen to them talk about Siva than any Christian talk about Jesus Christ or Muslims about Allah or Prophet Mohammed. And I know what their reactions will be if I talk about Lord Krishna to them.

June 21, 2005

**********You are perhaps right. I am bored that I am listening to the same old arguments about the greatness of Siva. There is nothing new in Atanubhai's arguments. ********

The reason you get bored even after seeing a wealth of quotes from the literature about the greatness of Shiva is because, you are adamant.

If at all you read vedas being neutral you will very easily find out who is great.

And one more point is, first you have been calling everybody else fools and idiots and were displaying tremendous ego. Now that you have been tamed, its time for you to approach the literature with a fresh perspective and find out that, afterall, advaitic stage is the ultimate stage, and devotion, knowledge, action etc are only paths to that stage.

June 21, 2005

Only fools are grateful for the pain of passionate arguments. What if you are looking for more such pains. I would say no-problem. One day you'll get tired of it.

Like the philosophic view of looking at Vijay (Amitabh bachan) with the pain of bullets in him, lying on his mother's lap, at the shiva shrine in 'Deewar' movie.

He say's "Mom, I am tired, Mom".

June 21, 2005

Bindu, saranathan, ravilochanam, shyam guest, srinivasa guest and some more guests are all same.

He is keeping a sporty veneer. That is all. He has poison inside him.

When Devi (Vak), who is consort of Rudra-(and also of Visnu), says: I bend the arrow for Rudra towards the hater of religion", they translate it as " I kill Rudra for his hatred of devotion.

Absolutely forgetting the vedic shrutis that say: Rudra protects the sacrifice (Vishnu) and the sacrificer.

YV i. 8. 6.

c Thou art the protection of cattle, the protection of the sacrifice; give me protection.

d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

Their egos have forced them to close their intellect. But this fellow is to be pitied, since he does not know impelled by what he appears to keep a brave front while bleeding inside.

These mad guys get Rudra killed. They cite the episode of Yama being subdued by Indra, to prove that. They forget that Vedas say that Soma-Pavamana is Indra's self.

And Indra works under Rudra's protection and leadership.

YV iv. i. 2.

------

b Swiftly run hither, O steed,

-----------

------------

d In each need more strong,

In each contest, we invoke,

As friends, Indra to aid us.

e Hastening [1] come hither, trampling the enemy,

Come with wondrous skill from the leadership of Rudra;

HYMN LXXIV. Soma-Rudra.

1. HOLD fast your Godlike sway, O Soma-Rudra: let these our sacrifices quickly reach you. Placing in every house your seven great treasures, bring blessing to our quadrupeds and bipeds.

Then what Visnu-Agni does/do?

YV

i. 8. 22.

a O Agni and Visnu, great is your greatness;

Rejoice ye in the secret names of the ghee;

that places in every house seven treasures,

May your tongue move forth to the ghee.

b O Agni and Visnu, great is your dear abode;

Ye taste the ghee, rejoicing in its secrets;

In every home increasing lauds,

May your tongue move forth to the ghee

Visnu Agni know the amrta.

And,

YV iii. 2. 6.

a Thou art the milk of the great ones, the body of the All-gods; may I to-day accomplish the cup of the speckled ones; thou art the cup of the speckled ones; thou art the heart of Visnu,

THOU ART THE HEART OF VISNU

Someone else verily is the heart of Visnu.

Let blind be bind, if God wishes them to be so. Be happy and sing Bhaja Govindam or Om Nama Sivayya or Om Namah Narayana or Hare Rama Hare Krishna or Mata Durge Namah.

BinduMadhav · June 21, 2005

Some 'Guest' wrote:

-------------------

The reason you get bored even after seeing a wealth of quotes from the literature about the greatness of Shiva is because, you are adamant.

If at all you read vedas being neutral you will very easily find out who is great.

-------------------

I am adamant and I admit it. That is because I have been taught by my Acharya what is the truth and what is not. He has commanded me to speak the truth quietly but firmly. Lord Krishna/Hari/Vishnu IS the Supreme Lord of the visible and invisible, transcendant and immanent, Para and Apara. All other deities are created by Him, are not Jivanmuktas, and they worship him.

But am I dogmatic about my views? Not necessarily. If you think I am dogmatic, then perhaps the Guru-Shishya relationship should be shot down, because it will not work any more. Does not Hinduism command us to find a Guru for our spiritual guidance?

------------

And one more point is, first you have been calling everybody else fools and idiots and were displaying tremendous ego. Now that you have been tamed, its time for you to approach the literature with a fresh perspective and find out that, afterall, advaitic stage is the ultimate stage, and devotion, knowledge, action etc are only paths to that stage.

-----------

You are absolutely wrong in stating that I have been calling everyone fools. Read all my posts carefully and you will find out that I have always been very considerate of others' feelings. The only time I called someone a fool was when I commented on Rajasekhar's opinion that Bhakti is not a path. I realized my mistake and I immediately apologized (although I have never heard from him). He probably does not even care; but apparently, all the rest of the Saivites on this group have decided to keep reminding me that I am an egotistical person. One mistake and one is never forgiven (grin). How about Atanubhai, who has called me names multiple number of times?

But I am wasting my breath here. Allow me to point out to you that all our scriptures are open to interpretation. They are not, obviously, set in stone and clarity. So if I interpret Lord Hari as the Supreme, why are you so upset? Until I joined this group, I did not know that Hindus get upset by others' opinions.

BinduMadhav · June 21, 2005

Guest wrote:

-------------------

Bindu, saranathan, ravilochanam, shyam guest, srinivasa guest and some more guests are all same.

He is keeping a sporty veneer. That is all. He has poison inside him.

--------------------

I am BinduMadhav. I am not Saranathan, nor am i Ravilochanan, nor Shyam, nor Srinivasa. If you read the posts carefully, you will notice distinction in writing styles.

I don't have poison inside me and others have no poison in them either. Scholarly arguments for one side of the debate does not mean that the person has evil intent. Take it a little easy, son. Just remember that we did not write the scriptures. Unless, of course, you are such a staunch Advaitin that you don't differentiate between us and the seers; in which case, that bitterness does not belong in you at all.

June 21, 2005

You take it easy, kid. Try to make sure that you bring a good name to scriptures, your acharya, your institution & Lord Krishna.

Are you belonging to a hindu group that was scooted out of india during the british time, and founded abroad. Maybe that could be why the org. is using all it's might to upset hindus. Never mind the scriptures buddy.

Ganeshprasad · June 21, 2005

Jai Ganesh

No one here gets upset At lord Hari being supreme, any Hindu would or should get upset if Lord hara is depicted as lusty or being killed off. I am sorry to state that most of your posts came across condescending on others although you have mellowed a bit lately, just my observation.

Jai Shree Krishna

June 22, 2005

hi Bindhu,

i thought i would never talk to u but seing u in such a situation made me soft....

i do agree that saranathan, ravilochanam, shyam guest, srinivasa guest are u but i do have to point out that all their way of projecting their view point was very similar to that of urs....though their language style was different....

Bindu i want u to understand a great secret....that is...in winning an argument u actually loose the other person....now tell me what is more important to a hindu? winning an argument or winning a soul?

by stating the above para i have not attered any judgement for our discussion....i mentioned it only for ur own understanding of the results of a heated argument...look at all the mails u have got....now dont tell me that u dont care and ur only main objective is to fight for ur view points.....u have all the rights to present ur view points but u have no rights to say that others are wrong...in many occations u have said that the other person is wrong...who are u to pronounce judgement? ru God?

Bindhu, 'a good had and yet unknown is a good not had'-John Milton fron 'The lost Paradise (On his blindness)'

as a hindu u should have learned how to love differences and accept completely different view points and yet stick on to urs.....one can perceive u only by the words u write and for sure u have not made a good show in presenting urself.....

u wanted a summary of this argument....just scroll up and the few above posts will tell u the summary....in a nutshell 'Bindhu shows his ignorance' will be the summary...i know it will be very harsh on u but its the truth....truth is always bitter....

all the best...hope u have learned ur lesson....

with love

Thiruvengadam

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