Worship of Siva versus Worship of Lord Vishnu

BinduMadhav · June 22, 2005

My dear Thiruvengadam,

After you stop laughing (grin), read the following carefully, if necessary a couple of times.

{i thought i would never talk to u but seing u in such a situation made me soft....}

I think it is my turn to grin widely, my dear Thiruvengadam with the lovely name. What situation? I don't find this or any other situation particularly distressing.

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i do agree that saranathan, ravilochanam, shyam guest, srinivasa guest are u but i do have to point out that all their way of projecting their view point was very similar to that of urs....though their language style was different....

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What? You agree that Saranathan, Ravilochanan, etc are all ME? This is pure arrogance. What leads you to this conclusion, my good friend? Have you any proof? If you don't have any proof, I suggest that you keep such an opinion about my person to yourself.

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Bindu i want u to understand a great secret....that is...in winning an argument u actually loose the other person....now tell me what is more important to a hindu? winning an argument or winning a soul?

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Wow! I did not know that you, of all persons, is into harvesting the souls. I thought you were a Hindu. But you sound like a Christian. Winning a soul? To who? To Lord Vaishnav Siva or to Lord Jesus Christ?

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... u have all the rights to present ur view points but u have no rights to say that others are wrong ...

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If two persons express differing opinions about a subject, either one of them is wrong or both of them must be wrong. Do you understand why I am saying that others (who express their opinion that Siva is supreme) is wrong? If you and other Saivites do not accept the authority of Srimad Bhagavatham, Srimad Bhagavad-Gita or the Vedas, which clearly indicate that Rudra is born of BrahmA's forehead, just tell me so. I will understand how much of a Hindu you are.

All I see is evasion of the truth. You Saivites cannot truly face the truth. The scriptures clearly state that Sriman Narayana, the Shankha-Chakra-GadA-dhaari is the Supreme Lord, Parama Purusha or Sarvottama. Go back and read the commentaries of Srinivasan, Ravilochanan, Shyam, Saranathan and others, who, by the way, is not me.

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Bindhu, 'a good had and yet unknown is a good not had'-John Milton fron 'The lost Paradise (On his blindness)'

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I truly suggest that you read Milton's "Paradise Lost". Your quote is either full of typos or you are not quoting it right.

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as a hindu u should have learned how to love differences and accept completely different view points and yet stick on to urs.....

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I love the differences. In fact, I respect them. Unlike the Saivites, who drive the good Vaishnavs out of their state to a more tolerant state like Karnataka. I understand that the position of the Saivites is wrong, but they get my tolerance. Can you, as a Saivite, say that you or your ancestors have, are or will do the same for Sri Vaishnavs?

Son, I have to acknowledge that you have a lovely name, which reminds me of sweet Lord Venkateshvara. But I don't see any sweetness in your writing here. Nor do I see logic in them.

Like I have said, Thiruvengadam, I feel sorry for you.

June 22, 2005

***** After you stop laughing (grin), *********

Sound of gritting teeth, I hear. There is grin?

BinduMadhav · June 22, 2005

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No one here gets upset At lord Hari being supreme, any Hindu would or should get upset if Lord hara is depicted as lusty or being killed off. I am sorry to state that most of your posts came across condescending on others although you have mellowed a bit lately, just my observation.

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Where did I say that Siva is killed off? Someone else (was it Shyam) narrated a Puranic episode of Lord Vishnu's Chakra cutting off Rudra's head, but it was not me. As far as Siva being lusty, I am not saying it, our scriptures say that. You one of them Saivites too (wide grin)?

BinduMadhav · June 22, 2005

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***** After you stop laughing (grin), *********

Sound of gritting teeth, I hear. There is grin?

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If you were BinduMadhav, you would have a totally different attitude in life. This (or other similar) situations are amusing to me. If this situation were to cause me to grit my teeth, I would not be the true follower of Siva or the true Bhakta of Lord Hari.

June 22, 2005

****** which clearly indicate that Rudra is born of BrahmA's forehead, ************

Oh, really? I thought someone said, Rudra is born of sperm?

And that Rudra born of Brahma's forehead,is he called Manyu? Did he tear off a head of Brahma?

And that Rudra who shines from forehead of Vishnu, is he he called Shambhu? Is this sambhu, the controller of pragnya of Vishnu?

Well, this being, who comes out from forehead seems to be born os sperm and not eternal. Right ho.

June 22, 2005

Your avatars killed Rudra

June 22, 2005

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***** After you stop laughing (grin), *********

Sound of gritting teeth, I hear. There is grin?

---------

If you were BinduMadhav, you would have a totally different attitude in life.

Fortunate I am that I am not.

June 22, 2005

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'tasyendro vahmirUpeNa dhanurjyAmachChinatsvayam.h'

(Indra in the form of Agni himself breaks the 'heart of his bow' into pieces) and concludes

'etadrudrasya dhanuH | rudrasyatveva dhanurArtniH shira utpipeSha | sa pravargyo.abhavat.h'

(That bow belonged to Rudra. Since that belonged to Rudra, his 3 heads broke into pieces) and thus conveys an incident where Indra severes the head of Rudra.

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Ravilochanan has not told the incident by his own imagination but has quoted from Sruti(Taittreya Aranyaka).

Atanu's emotional outbursts will not prove the above verse wrong. Sruti can never be false and it clearly says that Rudra's heads were severed by Indra.

let Atanu reconcile with this reality.

There is an upAkhyAna to this effect also (atredaM kilopAkhyAnam.h)

In some kalpa, Indra without telling other gods, meditating upon Lord Narayana, started a sacrifice. Then the Gods sent Rudra to spoil that yajna.When Rudra created havoc there, Indra meditated upon the Lord. Then Vishnu's

chakra reached Indra and beheaded Rudra. Later he was brought to life due to Parvati praying the Lord.

*************

Zealots become blind in no time.

'etadrudrasya dhanuH | rudrasyatveva dhanurArtniH shira utpipeSha | sa pravargyo.abhavat.h'

(That bow belonged to Rudra. Since that belonged to Rudra, his 3 heads broke into pieces

Whose three heads? Rudra’s? This is another classic example of extrapolation. sa becomes Rudra.

And then further, the zealot says there is an upAkhyAna (with such words they try to look smart). Here he says, Visnu’s chakra beheaded Rudra. Bow and arrow becomes chakra now.

I have the reality here:

RV 8. HYMN LXVI. Indra.

1. SCARCELY was Satakratu, born when of his Mother he inquired, Who are the mighty? Who are famed?

2. Then Savassi declared to him Aurnavabha, Ahisuva: Son, these be they thou must o'erthrow

3 The Vrtra-slayer smote them all as spokes are hammered into naves: The Dasyu-killer waxed in might.

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6 Down from the mountains Indra shot hither his well-directed shaft: He gained the ready brew of rice.

7 ONE ONLY IS THAT SHAFT OF THINE, WITH THOUSAND FEATHERS, HUNDRED BARBS, WHICH, INDRA, THOU HAST MADE THY FRIEND.

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10 All these things Visnu (arrow) brought, the Lord of ample stride WHOM THOU HADST SENT-

A hundred buffaloes, a brew of rice and milk: and Indra, slew the ravening boar

11 MOST DEADLY IS THY BOW, SUCCESSFUL, FASHIONED WELL: GOOD IS THINE ARROW, DECKED WITH GOLD.

This bow and this arrow are well described in Vedas.

Sages pray to Indra to arrive under Rudra’s leadership. And these zealots say: Indra killed off Rudra.

YV iv. i. 2.

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b Swiftly run hither, O steed,

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d In each need more strong,

In each contest, we invoke,

As friends, Indra to aid us.

e Hastening [1] come hither, trampling the enemy,

Come with wondrous skill from the leadership of Rudra;

COME WITH WONDROUS SKILL FROM THE LEADERSHIP OF RUDRA;

************

The following lines in the nR^isimha-tApanIya Upanishad :

eSha dehAnte tamasaH paramaM dhAma prApnuyAt.h | yatra virajo nR^isimho

bhAsate tatra upAsate | tasadR^ishA munayaH

talk of Lord Narasimha being located in 'paramaM dhAma' (Moksha sthAna: vaikuNTha). At the beginning of tApanIya Upanishad, in the line "kevalaM jyotirekamanAdyanantaM", Lord Narasimha is said to be devoid of a beginning and an end.

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This guy has not seen “tamasaH paramaM dhAma” AND HE ADDS Moksha sthAna: vaikuNTha FROM HIS SIDE.

And HE HAS not read this also: (I hope people read without shutting their mind)

MAITRAYANA-BRAHMAYA-UPANISHAD

5. 2. 'IN THE BEGINNING TAMAS ALONE WAS THIS. ------- HE WHO IS CALLED RUDRA.

June 22, 2005

Yajur Veda i. 8. 15.

a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

b ------

c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu

--

f May I be united with power and strength. (Shiva and Shakti)

g Thou art the spirit of pasus; like them may my spirit be.

The atma is all. The Self is all.

Ganeshprasad · June 22, 2005

Jai ganesh

Re

(Where did I say that Siva is killed off? Someone else (was it Shyam) narrated a Puranic episode of Lord Vishnu's Chakra cutting off Rudra's head, but it was not me. As far as Siva being lusty, I am not saying it, our scriptures say that.)

Our scripture says a lot of things but if we base our opinion on those stories without actually understanding them then we are likely to commit a grave mistake.

There are enough of those Hindu bashers (Muslims, xians) who make mockery of our lord and that include Krishna also, let us not give them the opportunity.

As for Lord Shiva if you followed Bhagvatam then such remark you would not have made, read this again Devas praying to Lord Shiva

33. Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities.

People with little fund of knowledge make fun of Krishna also not understanding the Chir haran lila.

Re

(You one of them Saivites too (wide grin)?)

For me spiritual path is not a humor with wide grin or otherwise (although there is no harm in having fun with respect)

I do not care for any designation as long as I can develop love for god.

Jai Shree Krishna

Ganeshprasad · June 22, 2005

Jai Ganesh

Pranam Atanu ji

Re

(Zealots become blind in no time.)

with the grace of Lord Shiva the darkness

is removed

Jai Shree Krishna

BinduMadhav · June 22, 2005

Atanu Bhaiyya,

I know you have Siva fixed in your heart. Which is great, since Siva is one step towards Sriman Narayana Vasudeva.

But all the quotes you are providing are not adequate.

How about Devi Sukta in which Lakshmi Devi says: "I make whosoever I like Ugra (or Rudra or Siva), BrahmA, a Rishi or a wise man; I bend the bow of Rudra to slay the enemies of Lord (Narayana)"? Here it states clearly that Rudra gets his power from Devi. Does the list have Vishnu? Nah!

Bhaiyya, you can not alter the Shruti, which is the truth. Truth is Truth; it is immutable.

June 23, 2005

i actually meant that i dont believe that ur all those ppl....that was a typo....

iam quite busy now...will reply to ur other ques later in the evening...

June 24, 2005

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Whose three heads? Rudra’s? This is another classic example of extrapolation. sa becomes Rudra.

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Surprising! at the end Atanu tries to turn to grammar which he does not accept as a neccessity at all.

the sruti says,

"rudrasyatveva dhanurArtniH shira utpipeSha | "

read the vakya and u will find the answer, Atanu. also ur argument that it is not Rudra's heads stand defeated.

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10 All these things Visnu (arrow) brought, the Lord of ample stride WHOM THOU HADST SENT-

A hundred buffaloes, a brew of rice and milk: and Indra, slew the ravening boar

--

where does the verse say that Visnu is the arrow? don't spread ur stupidity to others. u r not able to counter the interpretations given by the Vaisnavas and instead u quote other verses and that too as usual by leaving verses in between in order to cheat the reAders.

u r unable to counter 'KESHANTO'.

ACCEPT THE REALITY - BRAHMA AND SHIVA ARE COME TO THEIR END AT THE HANDS OF VISNU(NARAYANA).

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This guy has not seen “tamasaH paramaM dhAma” AND HE ADDS Moksha sthAna: vaikuNTha FROM HIS SIDE.

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The following lines in the nR^isimha-tApanIya Upanishad :

eSha dehAnte tamasaH paramaM dhAma prApnuyAt.h | yatra virajo nR^isimho

bhAsate tatra upAsate | tasadR^ishA munayaH

talk of Lord Narasimha being located in 'paramaM dhAma' (Moksha sthAna: vaikuNTha).

see for urself carefully. 'Paramam dhama' refers to Parama Padam which is referred in Kathopanishad as follows:

" .....paramaapnothi tad Visno Paramam padam". (3rd Valli)

the verse says about the moksha sthana attainable by A PERSON who CONTROLS INDRIYAS.

the word 'paaramaapnothi' indicates that it lies on the other side (ie) it is beyond this material world.

it identifies the place as VISNU's PARAMAM PADAM. so the MOksha Sthana is Vaikuntha. If u do not accept the Tapaniya verse then see this verse from Kathopanishad.

At the beginning of tApanIya Upanishad, in the line

"kevalaM jyotirekamanAdyanantaM",

Lord Narasimha is said TO BE DEVOID OF BEGINNING OR AN END.

"MAITRAYANA-BRAHMAYA-UPANISHAD" IS NOT A PRAMANA AND IT HAS NOT BEEN QUOTED BY SANKARA, RAMANUJA OR MADHVA.

don't post from unknown Upanishads and if u do so we can also post from various Upanishads which clearly speak about Visnu's Supremacy and Rudra's inferiority.

but now I will quote from Gopala Tapani which is a pramana Upanishad,

"rshabhadvaja vandhyaaya paarthasaarathaye nama.h |"

MEANING:

"SALUTATIONS TO PARTHASARATHY WHO IS WORSHIPPED BY RUDRA."

Mahopanishad says " evam Narayana aseet....."

ONLY NARAYANA EXISTED. 'Narayana' refers only to Visnu. it refers to no other deity. as for the birth of Visnu mentioned in Mahopanishad it is avatar. it has been already proved with the help of Purusha Sukta and Mudgalopanishad by Saranathan. the speciality of 'Narayana' name puts the argument to rest.

Vedas have called only 'Narayana' as Parambrahmah. this is to make clear the fact that only Visnu is the Supreme. for the name 'Narayana' does not refer to anyone else. but still people like Atanu without understanding talk rubbish.

all the names of Rudra are attained names. the verses from Shatapatha, Shailali as well as Shata Rudriya clearly indicate that Rudra was born from Brahmadeva in different ways. this shows that Rudra was born in different manners in different Kalpas. or else it would mean that Sruti is contradictory and it cannot be so. thus he is a normal Jiva.

attained names cannot give glories of the true owner of the name to Rudradeva. Atanu has no answers for this nor for the clear verses from Shatapatha in which Rudra says that HE IS ANAPAHATAPAAPMA (not cleansed of sins).

also Subala Upanishad says,

" ....... APAHATAPAAPMA DIVYO DEVA EKO NARAYANA.H |"

thus Narayana is Apahatapaapma(untouched by sins). Rudradeva is not so and hence Rudradeva cannot be an avatar of Narayana nor can he be Narayana himself.

all the arguments of Atanu ends there.

Atanu,

if u still want to shout and post nonsense, do it as u wish and it does not matter much to us. it is an utter waste to argue with people like u who do not know about the subtle ways of the Vedas and the method of interpretation. Adi Sankara too followed these rules but u consider urself superior to Sankara that u do not follow them in any place.

so keep shouting at the highest pitch until u tear ur throat, if u wish .

u have not answered any one of the main points of arguments of Vaisnavas and hence u have failed in ur attempt.

learn from ur Guru how to argue and interpret and then argue with the Vaisnavas if u can.

Visnu is KESHAANTA.

UR SCREAMING WILL NOT CHANGE IT.

June 24, 2005

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ACCEPT THE REALITY - BRAHMA AND SHIVA ARE COME TO THEIR END AT THE HANDS OF VISNU(NARAYANA).

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It should have been:

ACCEPT THE REALITY - BRAHMA AND SHIVA ARE TO THEIR END AT THE HANDS OF VISNU(NARAYANA).

Atanu will turn to English grammar and will write some nonsense as he did to Raghuramji's posts. now that I've corrected the mistake let him not try to exploit such flow through mistakes.

June 24, 2005

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Yajur Veda i. 8. 15.

a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

b ------

c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu

--

f May I be united with power and strength. (Shiva and Shakti)

g Thou art the spirit of pasus; like them may my spirit be.

these verses have been explained before and also u add the words Shiva and Shakti as per ur convenience.

keep on parroting and u have no other go.

u will say that grammar is not neccessary.

then,

"rodayatih sarvam antakala iti Rudra.h|"

{let me try ur way of interpretation(as per one's convenience). still even this interpretation does not become wrong by grammar or nyaya, for the Vaisnavas are true to Vedas.)

Meaning:

" HE cries at THE END OF EVERYTHING (PRALAYA) and hence he is called RUDRA."

WHY DOES HE CRY AT PRALAYA?

BECAUSE HE WILL ALSO DIE AT THE HANDS OF 'KESHAANTA'.

how is this interpretation, Atanu?

u might say something else but even this interpretation is correct. so u cannot counter this. u might shout something but that matters nothing to me.

bye bye!!!!

keep on shouting.

June 24, 2005

u people will never change....if such be ur fate...then what can we do....i think Vishnu has to come Himself to make u clear...but u will even then not accept....

keep fighting and bring shame not only to urself but also to Sanathana dharma as a whole......such people like u are the reason why india has not yet developed.....

Shiva's heart is Vishnu and Vishnu's heart is Shiva

June 24, 2005

No need to enter into any discussion with your kind, because lies are your only weapon.

Only the truth will remain.

The sacrificer himself becomes Visnu. Sacrificer's soul is the steps of Visnu and bolts of Indra. And Visnu has some one else as his heart. Some one else protects him. Visnu attends on Aswins and He lauds and sings praise of Indra.

Yajur Veda i. 8. 15.

a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

b ------

c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu

--

f May I be united with power and strength.

g Thou art the spirit of pasus; like them may my spirit be.

YV iii. 2. 6.

a Thou art the milk of the great ones, the body of the All-gods; may I to-day accomplish the cup of the speckled ones; thou art the cup of the speckled ones; thou art the heart of Visnu,

YV i. 2. 2.

a To the purpose, to the impulse, to Agni, hail! To wisdom, to thought, to Agni, hail! To consecration, to penance, to Agni, hail! To Sarasvati, to Prisan, to Agni, hail!

g Thou art the protection of Visnu, the protection of the sacrificer, grant me protection.

YV vi. 1. 11.

Or rather they say, 'By Agni and Soma, Indra slew Vrtra'. In that he offers an animal to Agni and Soma, it slays hostile things for him;

8. HYMN XV. Indra.

8 O Indra, Heaven and Earth augment thy manly power and thy renown; The waters and thy mountains stir and urge thee on.

9 Visnu the lofty ruling Power, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise:

8. HYMN XXXV. Asvins.

14 With Visnu and the Angirases attending you, and with the Maruts come unto your praiser's call. Accordant, of one mind with Surya and with Dawn, and with the Adityas, Asvins! come.

10. HYMN CXTII. Indra.

1. THE Heavens and the Earth accordant with all Gods encouraged graciously that vigorous might of his.

When he came showing forth his majesty and power, he drank of Soma juice and waxed exceeding strong.

2 This majesty of his Visnu extols and lauds, ------

Sama Veda XI Indra

2. O Indra, heaven and earth augment thy manly force and thy renown: The waters and the mountains stir and urge thee on:

3. Vishnu in the lofty ruling power, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise:In thee the Maruts' company have great delight.

June 24, 2005

*******"rodayatih sarvam antakala iti Rudra.h|"

{let me try ur way of interpretation(as per one's convenience). still even this interpretation does not become wrong by grammar or nyaya, for the Vaisnavas are true to Vedas.)

Meaning:

" HE cries at THE END OF EVERYTHING (PRALAYA) and hence he is called RUDRA."

WHY DOES HE CRY AT PRALAYA?

BECAUSE HE WILL ALSO DIE AT THE HANDS OF 'KESHAANTA'.*********

Foolish. It is you who will cry.

June 24, 2005

******

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Whose three heads? Rudra’s? This is another classic example of extrapolation. sa becomes Rudra.

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Surprising! at the end Atanu tries to turn to grammar which he does not accept as a neccessity at all.

********

There is no grammar involved. You replace sa with Rudra. Any child will see that.

Foolish attempts by you and none other.

June 24, 2005

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eSha dehAnte tamasaH paramaM dhAma prApnuyAt.h | yatra virajo nR^isimho

bhAsate tatra upAsate | tasadR^ishA munayaH

talk of Lord Narasimha being located in 'paramaM dhAma' (Moksha sthAna: vaikuNTha).

see for urself carefully. 'Paramam dhama' refers to Parama Padam which is referred in Kathopanishad as follows:

" .....paramaapnothi tad Visno Paramam padam". (3rd Valli)

**************

eSha dehAnte tamasaH paramaM dhAma prApnuyAt. Tamas is the param dhama.

paramaapnothi tad Visno Paramam padam". (3rd Valli): Visno is param Padam.

Param Padam and not Param. Padam means part or feet.

Visnu is Lord's gatim.

June 24, 2005

"rodayatih sarvam antakala iti Rudra.h|"

{let me try ur way of interpretation(as per one's convenience). still even this interpretation does not become wrong by grammar or nyaya, for the Vaisnavas are true to Vedas.)

Meaning:

*********

" HE cries at THE END OF EVERYTHING (PRALAYA) and hence he is called RUDRA."

WHY DOES HE CRY AT PRALAYA?

BECAUSE HE WILL ALSO DIE AT THE HANDS OF 'KESHAANTA'.

how is this interpretation, Atanu?

***********

Well you compare your own translations above. I have already pointed out that your translations wear different color every time. You correctly seek the opinion: "how is this interpretation, Atanu?"

Your interpretaion simply exposes your bitterness. I like the exposure.

"rodayatih sarvam antakala iti Rudra.h|"

Maha Kala

June 24, 2005

Yajur Veda i. 8. 15.

a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

b ------

c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu

--

f May I be united with power and strength. (Shiva and Shakti)

g Thou art the spirit of pasus; like them may my spirit be.

Yes, I added Shiva and Shakti. That is my emphasis.

But I do not reverse the meaning. Remove Shiva and Shakti and still the fact remains that: SOME ONE ELSE IS VISNU'S STEPS, STEPPINGS, AND STRIDES AND iNDRA'S BOLT.

IT IS THE ATMA. THE SELF.

June 24, 2005

*******

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YV vi. 5. 6.

------ The gods kept Rudra away from the sacrifice [2], he followed the Adityas; they took refuge in the creatures for two deities,

Adityas flee and take refuge in creatures.

---

whenever the Vedas refer to Adityas and Rudras they refer to the devatas except Visnu and Rudradeva. why don't u understand 5this simple thing. Batta Baskara, Sayana, Madhva Acharyas, Sri Vaishnava Acharyas as well as Appaya Dikshita(a Shaivite) have accepted this. so if Adityas flee then that does not include Visnu.

***********

Remember this when you refer to 'Narayanat Ekadasha Rudro Jayate' and conclude as below:

’”(ie) from Narayana the 11 Rudras were born. by clearly saying '11 Rudras'(Ekadasha Rudras) the Upanishad has laid out that Rudradeva too was born from Narayana”

Rudras are Maruts, children of Rudra as verse after verse of Rig Veda prove. Nararyana is Rudra.

and shame: Adityas flee and take refuge in creatures.

**********

-------

Yajur Veda i. 8. 15.

a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

b ------

c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu

d On the instigation of the Maruts may I conquer.

e Be mind ready.

f May I be united with power and strength. (Shiva and Shakti, my emphasis)

g Thou art the spirit of cattle; like them may my spirit be.

--

useless. these verses refer to the Yajamana of Rajasuya Yagna. what makes u think that Rudradva is mentioned here. ur assumption (Shiva & Shakti) is baseless. Upakrama Nyaya has to be followed.

the first three mantras praise the Yajamana.In the next three the Yajamana prays for favour.

also when the Yajamana is praised that thou art the stride of Visnu, it means that the Yajamana is powerful as His stride. Baskara has accepted it. But Atanu would not.

**********

You simply by pass “Thou art the spirit of cattle”. And say it is meaningless. Read again, using common sense and not with Pandit like mood.

Yajur Veda i. 8. 15.

a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu

g Thou art the spirit of cattle; like them may my spirit be.

And these are also true:

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou I art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull;

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down; --- Rudra when offered.

***********

Mahanarayanopanishad: Namo Rudraya Vishnave....

atanu argues that the above verse means 'Salutations to Rudra who is Visnu'

************

There is nothing to argue. The meaning is clear: Prostrations to all pervading Rudra (it may or may not be referring to Lord Vishnu).

This is supported by the followings:

Yajur Veda v. 5. 9.

i The Rudra in the fire, in the waters, in the plants, the Rudra that hath entered all beings, to that Rudra be homage

YV iv. 5. 5.

a Homage to Bhava and to Rudra.

b Homage to Çarva and to the lord of cattle.

c Homage to the blue-necked one, and to the white-throated.

d Homage to the wearer of braids, and to him of shaven hair.

e Homage to him of a thousand eyes, and to him of a hundred bows.

f HOMAGE TO HIM WHO HAUNTETH THE MOUNTAINS, AND TO ÇIPIVISTA.

-------------

It is very clear. Sata Rudriya is 100 names of Rudra. Your tortuous arguments are of no avail.

************

Siksha Valli of Taittreya Upanishad says,

'yatrasow KESHANTO vivarthathe'

this vakya is found in the mantra describing the Paramatma who resides in the hearts of the beings.

note the word 'KESHANTO'.

'Ka' refers to Brahmadeva. 'Isha' refers to Rudradeva. 'Anta' means end.

Atanu does not need them for they are hurdles in his way to prove the contrary to what the Vedas say.

***********

Yes, Atanu does not need such tortuous acrobatics, which make you laughing stock and nothing else. Atanu has very direct shruti as support.

eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH |

SU III, 3-4

i) 3. On all sides eye, on all sides face,

on all sides arms, on all sides feet,

he, God, the One, creates heaven and earth,

forging them together with arms and wings.

4. He who is source and origin of the Gods,

the Lord of all, Rudra, the mighty sage,

who produced in ancient days the Golden Germ--

may he endow us with purity of mind!

**********------------------------

He has not reconciled with this shruti wherein it says Rudra gave birth to Hirayanagarbha. He simply has no time to reconcile his blindness to these.

Svet Up.

4.12

He, the creator of the gods and the bestower of their powers, the Support of the universe, Rudra the omniscient, who at the beginning gave birth to Hiranyagarbha—may He endow us with clear intellect!

--------------------------------

once again attained names cannot give a person the glories of the true owner of the name. the 'Rudra' mentioned here is not 'Rudradeva'.

Atanu says that the above verse proves Rudradeva as the creator of Brahmadeva. but the verse clearly proves that the deity referred to is Narayana(Visnu).

**********

I have said it before. Do not be a laughing stock. Your name was acquired, and so you are not you. Foolish

And, where does the verse prove that the diety is Narayana? Do not insert your opinion.

*******

also MahaNarayana Upanishad says

'Narayanat Ekadasha Rudro Jayate'

(ie) from Narayana the 11 Rudras were born. by clearly saying '11 Rudras'(Ekadasha Rudras) the Upanishad has laid out that Rudradeva too was born from Narayana. and it has been proved above that Rudradeva cannot be an avatar of Narayana. so the fact is established.

**********

As has been shown above, Rudras (Maruts) are children of Rudra. So, Rudra is Purusha of Vedas.

Conclusive.

And why do not you take cognizance of the following:

Maha Narayana Upanishad

I-70: ------- He dwells together with Uma (His power giving spiritual illumination) in the hearts of devotees which are holier than other parts of their body (the seat of the Divine) -------

XIII-4: Narayana is the Supreme Reality designated as Brahman. Narayana is the highest (Self). Narayana is the supreme Light (described in the Upanishads). Narayana is the infinite Self. [Narayana is the most excellent meditator and meditation.]

XIII-5: Whatsoever there is in this world known through perception (because of their proximity) or known through report (because of their distance), all that is pervaded by Narayana within and without.

XVI-1: [by these twenty-two names ending with salutations they consecrate the Sivalinga for all] – the Linga which are representative of Soma and Surya, and holding which in the hand holy formulas are repeated and which purifies all:

Nidhanapataye Namah !

Nidhanapataantikaya Namah !

Urdhvaya Namah !

Urdhva Lingaya Namah !

Hiranyaya Namah !

Hiranya Lingaya Namah !

Suvarnaya Namah !

Suvarna Lingaya Namah !

Divyaya Namah !

Divya Lingaya Namah !

Bhavaya Namah !

Bhava Lingaya Namah !

Sarvaya Namah !

Sarva Lingaya Namah !

Shivaya Namah !

Shiva Lingaya Namah !

Jvalaya Namah !

Jvala Lingaya Namah !

Atmaya Namah !

AtmaLingaya Namah !

Paramaya Namah !

Parama Lingaya Namah !

------------------

XXIV-1: All this verily is Rudra. To Rudra who is such we offer our salutation. We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of creatures all that is indeed this Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

XXV-1: We sing a hymn that confers on us happiness in the highest degree to Rudra who is worthy of praise, who is endowed with the highest knowledge, who rains objects to the worshippers most excellently, who is more powerful and who is dwelling in the heart. Indeed all this is Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

LXXV-1: Salutations to Rudra, and to Rudra who is Vishnu. Guard me from death.

***

--

XXIII-1: Supreme Brahman, the Absolute Reality, has become an androgynous Person in the form of Umamaheshvara, --------

----

now it has been established that Rudradeva is not an avatar of Parambrahmah Narayana.

********

Yes Narayana or Purusha is Rudra-Shiva. Vishnu is an Avatar.

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down; ---------- Rudra when offered, ----- the heaven when arrived at completion.

********-----

Namo Agriyaya cha prathamaya cha

If agriyaya was first born (as you say, then there was no need for prathamay cha.

-----

Ravilochanan had said that 'Agriyaya' means first. he never said first born. First born was Brahmadeva and not Rudradeva.

------

Atanu must understand these things.

*************

It is you who kill off the God have to understand that you are incurring sin. Atanu is clear.

Sata Rudriya, as the name itself indicates is hundred names of Rudra. The Bhagwan. No language pyrotechnics. Simply, ETERNAL BHAGWAN. And you are foolish that you kill off Bhagwan. Shameless you.

Namo Agriyaya cha prathamaya cha

Salutations to Him who was before all things and who is foremost.

Namah purvajaya chaparajaya cha

Salutations to Him who was before all and who will be born after all.

My translation stands. If Agriyaya and Prathamaya both mean pratham, then there is no need to say: Namo Agriyaya cha prathamaya cha

And there is no need to say: Namah purvajaya chaparajaya cha

***************

You have conveniently misplaced self resplendent in the first verse. And you have conveniently removed 'for these songs' in the third verse.

If it was not so, then there is no point of using 'in as much as' in the second verse

Next time around, remove 'inas much as also'.

in every post your translations are differing.

-----

Atanu says '......claim and merit praise'. It can also mean that the praises for Rudra and other deities mentioned above are due to these deities and hence for these songs these deities of the 11th verse and hence they claim praise for themselves .

though Atanu's translation is misinterpretation, it can be meant in the above manner also. so if we take such a meaning then Atanu has defeated his cause by himself.

***************

Atanu has not defeated his cause. There is no cause of Atanu.

The praises cannot merit claim because of earth and heaven – that would be foolish.

OK. Let us put the omitted phrases and see for ourselves (misplaced parts are added in bold letters).

10.092.09 Address SONGS today with reverence to Rudra the SELF RESPLENDENT, powerful destroyer of the heroes, (who is accompanied) by the mounted (Maruts), the granters of wishes, together with whom he, propitious, possessing kinsmen, besprinkles (the worshippers) from heaven.

10.092.10 IN AS MUCH AS Br.haspati, the showerer (of benefits) and the kindred of Soma (the Visvedeva_s), bestow food (for the support) of people, Atharvan was the first to invigorate (the gods) with sacrifices; with strength the gods and Bhr.gus discovered (the cattle). [With strength: i.e., with the strength acquired from the sacrifice which they had eaten; having gone to the sacrifice made by Atharvan, they discovered the cattle; cf. RV 1.83.5].

10.092.11 FOR THESE the heaven and earth, abounding with waters, the Nara_s'am.sa rite with its four fires, Yama, Aditi, the divine Tvas.t.a_, (Agni) the giver of wealth, the R.bhus, Rodasi_, the Maruts, and Vis.n.u MERIT AND CLAIM PRAISE (or ‘are worshipped (by us)’) .

----- ‘for these, the Heaven etc., are praised by us’ is meaning less. Then, what is the meaning of ‘in as much as’, if not to link with the praises of Rudra?

Simply the correct, unbiased translation is:

RV 10.092

9 WITH HUMBLE ADORATION SHOW THIS DAY YOUR SONG OF PRAISE TO MIGHTY RUDRA, RULER OF THE BRAVE: WITH WHOM, THE EAGER ONES, GOING THEIR ORDERED COURSE, HE COMES FROM HEAVEN SELF-BRIGHT, AUSPICIOUS, STRONG TO GUARD.

10 FOR THESE HAVE SPREAD ABROAD THE FAME OF HUMAN KIND, THE BULL BRHASPATI AND SOMA'S BROTHERHOOD. ATHARVAN FIRST BY SACRIFICES MADE MEN SURE: THROUGH SKILL THE BHRGUS WERE ESTEEMED OF ALL AS GODS.

11 FOR THESE, THE EARTH AND HEAVEN WITH THEIR ABUNDANT SEED, FOUR-BODIED NARASMSA, YAMA, ADITI, GOD TVASTAR WEALTH-BESTOWER, THE RBHUKSANAS, RODASI, MARUTS, VISNU, CLAIM AND MERIT PRAISE.

The praises cannot merit claim because of earth and heaven – that would be foolish.

But ON ACCOUNT OF THESE SONGS OF PRAISE (WHICH ARE TO RUDRA) ALL CLAIM AND MERIT PRAISE.

Very clear. No tortuous arguments.

YAJUR VEDA I. 8. 6. D

RUDRA ALONE YIELDETH TO NO SECOND.

June 24, 2005

*******

--------------------------------

YV vi. 5. 6.

------ The gods kept Rudra away from the sacrifice [2], he followed the Adityas; they took refuge in the creatures for two deities,

Adityas flee and take refuge in creatures.

---

whenever the Vedas refer to Adityas and Rudras they refer to the devatas except Visnu and Rudradeva. why don't u understand 5this simple thing. Batta Baskara, Sayana, Madhva Acharyas, Sri Vaishnava Acharyas as well as Appaya Dikshita(a Shaivite) have accepted this. so if Adityas flee then that does not include Visnu.

***********

Remember this when you refer to 'Narayanat Ekadasha Rudro Jayate' and conclude as below:

’”(ie) from Narayana the 11 Rudras were born. by clearly saying '11 Rudras'(Ekadasha Rudras) the Upanishad has laid out that Rudradeva too was born from Narayana”

Rudras are Maruts, children of Rudra as verse after verse of Rig Veda prove. Nararyana is Rudra.

and shame: Adityas flee and take refuge in creatures.

**********

-------

Yajur Veda i. 8. 15.

a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

b ------

c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu

d On the instigation of the Maruts may I conquer.

e Be mind ready.

f May I be united with power and strength. (Shiva and Shakti, my emphasis)

g Thou art the spirit of cattle; like them may my spirit be.

--

useless. these verses refer to the Yajamana of Rajasuya Yagna. what makes u think that Rudradva is mentioned here. ur assumption (Shiva & Shakti) is baseless. Upakrama Nyaya has to be followed.

the first three mantras praise the Yajamana.In the next three the Yajamana prays for favour.

also when the Yajamana is praised that thou art the stride of Visnu, it means that the Yajamana is powerful as His stride. Baskara has accepted it. But Atanu would not.

**********

You simply by pass “Thou art the spirit of cattle”. And say it is meaningless. Read again, using common sense and not with Pandit like mood.

Yajur Veda i. 8. 15.

a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu

g Thou art the spirit of cattle; like them may my spirit be.

And these are also true:

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou I art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull;

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down; --- Rudra when offered.

***********

Mahanarayanopanishad: Namo Rudraya Vishnave....

atanu argues that the above verse means 'Salutations to Rudra who is Visnu'

************

There is nothing to argue. The meaning is clear: Prostrations to all pervading Rudra (it may or may not be referring to Lord Vishnu).

This is supported by the followings:

Yajur Veda v. 5. 9.

i The Rudra in the fire, in the waters, in the plants, the Rudra that hath entered all beings, to that Rudra be homage

YV iv. 5. 5.

a Homage to Bhava and to Rudra.

b Homage to Çarva and to the lord of cattle.

c Homage to the blue-necked one, and to the white-throated.

d Homage to the wearer of braids, and to him of shaven hair.

e Homage to him of a thousand eyes, and to him of a hundred bows.

f HOMAGE TO HIM WHO HAUNTETH THE MOUNTAINS, AND TO ÇIPIVISTA.

-------------

It is very clear. Sata Rudriya is 100 names of Rudra. Your tortuous arguments are of no avail.

************

Siksha Valli of Taittreya Upanishad says,

'yatrasow KESHANTO vivarthathe'

this vakya is found in the mantra describing the Paramatma who resides in the hearts of the beings.

note the word 'KESHANTO'.

'Ka' refers to Brahmadeva. 'Isha' refers to Rudradeva. 'Anta' means end.

Atanu does not need them for they are hurdles in his way to prove the contrary to what the Vedas say.

***********

Yes, Atanu does not need such tortuous acrobatics, which make you laughing stock and nothing else. Atanu has very direct shruti as support.

eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH |

SU III, 3-4

i) 3. On all sides eye, on all sides face,

on all sides arms, on all sides feet,

he, God, the One, creates heaven and earth,

forging them together with arms and wings.

4. He who is source and origin of the Gods,

the Lord of all, Rudra, the mighty sage,

who produced in ancient days the Golden Germ--

may he endow us with purity of mind!

**********------------------------

He has not reconciled with this shruti wherein it says Rudra gave birth to Hirayanagarbha. He simply has no time to reconcile his blindness to these.

Svet Up.

4.12

He, the creator of the gods and the bestower of their powers, the Support of the universe, Rudra the omniscient, who at the beginning gave birth to Hiranyagarbha—may He endow us with clear intellect!

--------------------------------

once again attained names cannot give a person the glories of the true owner of the name. the 'Rudra' mentioned here is not 'Rudradeva'.

Atanu says that the above verse proves Rudradeva as the creator of Brahmadeva. but the verse clearly proves that the deity referred to is Narayana(Visnu).

**********

I have said it before. Do not be a laughing stock. Your name was acquired, and so you are not you. Foolish

And, where does the verse prove that the diety is Narayana? Do not insert your opinion.

*******

also MahaNarayana Upanishad says

'Narayanat Ekadasha Rudro Jayate'

(ie) from Narayana the 11 Rudras were born. by clearly saying '11 Rudras'(Ekadasha Rudras) the Upanishad has laid out that Rudradeva too was born from Narayana. and it has been proved above that Rudradeva cannot be an avatar of Narayana. so the fact is established.

**********

As has been shown above, Rudras (Maruts) are children of Rudra. So, Rudra is Purusha of Vedas.

Conclusive.

And why do not you take cognizance of the following:

Maha Narayana Upanishad

I-70: ------- He dwells together with Uma (His power giving spiritual illumination) in the hearts of devotees which are holier than other parts of their body (the seat of the Divine) -------

XIII-4: Narayana is the Supreme Reality designated as Brahman. Narayana is the highest (Self). Narayana is the supreme Light (described in the Upanishads). Narayana is the infinite Self. [Narayana is the most excellent meditator and meditation.]

XIII-5: Whatsoever there is in this world known through perception (because of their proximity) or known through report (because of their distance), all that is pervaded by Narayana within and without.

XVI-1: [by these twenty-two names ending with salutations they consecrate the Sivalinga for all] – the Linga which are representative of Soma and Surya, and holding which in the hand holy formulas are repeated and which purifies all:

Nidhanapataye Namah !

Nidhanapataantikaya Namah !

Urdhvaya Namah !

Urdhva Lingaya Namah !

Hiranyaya Namah !

Hiranya Lingaya Namah !

Suvarnaya Namah !

Suvarna Lingaya Namah !

Divyaya Namah !

Divya Lingaya Namah !

Bhavaya Namah !

Bhava Lingaya Namah !

Sarvaya Namah !

Sarva Lingaya Namah !

Shivaya Namah !

Shiva Lingaya Namah !

Jvalaya Namah !

Jvala Lingaya Namah !

Atmaya Namah !

AtmaLingaya Namah !

Paramaya Namah !

Parama Lingaya Namah !

------------------

XXIV-1: All this verily is Rudra. To Rudra who is such we offer our salutation. We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of creatures all that is indeed this Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

XXV-1: We sing a hymn that confers on us happiness in the highest degree to Rudra who is worthy of praise, who is endowed with the highest knowledge, who rains objects to the worshippers most excellently, who is more powerful and who is dwelling in the heart. Indeed all this is Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

LXXV-1: Salutations to Rudra, and to Rudra who is Vishnu. Guard me from death.

***

--

XXIII-1: Supreme Brahman, the Absolute Reality, has become an androgynous Person in the form of Umamaheshvara, --------

----

now it has been established that Rudradeva is not an avatar of Parambrahmah Narayana.

********

Yes Narayana or Purusha is Rudra-Shiva. Vishnu is an Avatar.

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down; ---------- Rudra when offered, ----- the heaven when arrived at completion.

********-----

Namo Agriyaya cha prathamaya cha

If agriyaya was first born (as you say, then there was no need for prathamay cha.

-----

Ravilochanan had said that 'Agriyaya' means first. he never said first born. First born was Brahmadeva and not Rudradeva.

------

Atanu must understand these things.

*************

It is you who kill off the God have to understand that you are incurring sin. Atanu is clear.

Sata Rudriya, as the name itself indicates is hundred names of Rudra. The Bhagwan. No language pyrotechnics. Simply, ETERNAL BHAGWAN. And you are foolish that you kill off Bhagwan. Shameless you.

Namo Agriyaya cha prathamaya cha

Salutations to Him who was before all things and who is foremost.

Namah purvajaya chaparajaya cha

Salutations to Him who was before all and who will be born after all.

My translation stands. If Agriyaya and Prathamaya both mean pratham, then there is no need to say: Namo Agriyaya cha prathamaya cha

And there is no need to say: Namah purvajaya chaparajaya cha

***************

You have conveniently misplaced self resplendent in the first verse. And you have conveniently removed 'for these songs' in the third verse.

If it was not so, then there is no point of using 'in as much as' in the second verse

Next time around, remove 'inas much as also'.

in every post your translations are differing.

-----

Atanu says '......claim and merit praise'. It can also mean that the praises for Rudra and other deities mentioned above are due to these deities and hence for these songs these deities of the 11th verse and hence they claim praise for themselves .

though Atanu's translation is misinterpretation, it can be meant in the above manner also. so if we take such a meaning then Atanu has defeated his cause by himself.

***************

Atanu has not defeated his cause. There is no cause of Atanu.

The praises cannot merit claim because of earth and heaven – that would be foolish.

OK. Let us put the omitted phrases and see for ourselves (misplaced parts are added in bold letters).

10.092.09 Address SONGS today with reverence to Rudra the SELF RESPLENDENT, powerful destroyer of the heroes, (who is accompanied) by the mounted (Maruts), the granters of wishes, together with whom he, propitious, possessing kinsmen, besprinkles (the worshippers) from heaven.

10.092.10 IN AS MUCH AS Br.haspati, the showerer (of benefits) and the kindred of Soma (the Visvedeva_s), bestow food (for the support) of people, Atharvan was the first to invigorate (the gods) with sacrifices; with strength the gods and Bhr.gus discovered (the cattle). [With strength: i.e., with the strength acquired from the sacrifice which they had eaten; having gone to the sacrifice made by Atharvan, they discovered the cattle; cf. RV 1.83.5].

10.092.11 FOR THESE the heaven and earth, abounding with waters, the Nara_s'am.sa rite with its four fires, Yama, Aditi, the divine Tvas.t.a_, (Agni) the giver of wealth, the R.bhus, Rodasi_, the Maruts, and Vis.n.u MERIT AND CLAIM PRAISE (or ‘are worshipped (by us)’) .

----- ‘for these, the Heaven etc., are praised by us’ is meaning less. Then, what is the meaning of ‘in as much as’, if not to link with the praises of Rudra?

Simply the correct, unbiased translation is:

RV 10.092

9 WITH HUMBLE ADORATION SHOW THIS DAY YOUR SONG OF PRAISE TO MIGHTY RUDRA, RULER OF THE BRAVE: WITH WHOM, THE EAGER ONES, GOING THEIR ORDERED COURSE, HE COMES FROM HEAVEN SELF-BRIGHT, AUSPICIOUS, STRONG TO GUARD.

10 FOR THESE HAVE SPREAD ABROAD THE FAME OF HUMAN KIND, THE BULL BRHASPATI AND SOMA'S BROTHERHOOD. ATHARVAN FIRST BY SACRIFICES MADE MEN SURE: THROUGH SKILL THE BHRGUS WERE ESTEEMED OF ALL AS GODS.

11 FOR THESE, THE EARTH AND HEAVEN WITH THEIR ABUNDANT SEED, FOUR-BODIED NARASMSA, YAMA, ADITI, GOD TVASTAR WEALTH-BESTOWER, THE RBHUKSANAS, RODASI, MARUTS, VISNU, CLAIM AND MERIT PRAISE.

The praises cannot merit claim because of earth and heaven – that would be foolish.

But ON ACCOUNT OF THESE SONGS OF PRAISE (WHICH ARE TO RUDRA) ALL CLAIM AND MERIT PRAISE.

Very clear. No tortuous arguments.

YAJUR VEDA I. 8. 6. D

RUDRA ALONE YIELDETH TO NO SECOND.

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