who is shiva?

[thiruvengadam 0]

a quote from

 

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8107/sats2.html

 

"Who is Lord Shiva ? Shiva is the supreme reality. Always united with Shakti, He alone turns into many as the Lord of Creation and withdraws Himself to the original state of One as the Lord of Destruction. <font color="red"> Thiru-jnana-sambhandar enumerates five qualities of Lord Shiva in his poem, (creation, protection, destruction, hiding, and blessing)</font color> . He is invisible, unmanifest and Nirguna (formless), but to please his devotees whose mind cannot comprehend His glory, He takes on forms to bless them. Shankara in his lalita trishati bhashya explains this very clearly,

 

bhaktaanugrahaaka vigraha vattam vinaa devataayaa buddhavanaaropeNa

saguNopaasana vigrahavantah aN^gikartavyaa iti pratishhThaapitam

(If the dieties do not possess forms to bless their devotees, the devotees cannot grasp them mentally and sagunopaasana becomes impossible..)

 

But how should we worship ? Shankara says in the bhashya on how to worship Lalita,

 

tathaapi tadapavaada purassaram shuddha chaitanyaabheda

dhyana ruupa mukhya bhajanam mukhya meva

A devotee must meditate only on his oneness with pure awareness in worship.

 

Is it possible to describe the glory and nature of Shiva ? When Lord Brahma and Lord Vishnu have failed, should we even attempt to do that ? That's why a devotee says,

 

tava tattvam naajaanaami, kidrsosi mahesvara, kyadrosi mahadeva

taddrsya namo namaH

Oh Great one, I do not know the Truth about you, or who/what you are. However, let me salute that nature of yours.

 

When a devotee approaches Ishvara or Ishta-devata with reverence, he thinks he is the body. He has the dehatma-buddhi.

 

dehaM - body

 

Man is bitten by the snake of ignorance and thinks himself as limited, ignorant, and suffers from the notion of 'I am the doer.' By surrendering the notion of an individuality due to wise words by sages, he concludes [atleast intellectually],

 

na ahaM - [body is] not I

 

But then, if we are not the bodies, then surely Lord Shiva cannot be only the body either. Instead of asking, 'Who is Lord Shiva and what is His nature,' he asks himself,

 

ko.ahaM - who am I ?

 

Due to the everpresent grace of Lord Shiva-Shakti and Guru, he realizes [not immediately, of course]

 

so.ahaM - I am That.

 

He was always That. A king dreams that he was a beggar. Was he ever a beggar ? No, he only thought he was a beggar. He only realized who he really was (a king) after waking up. Similarly, after one removes the [perceived] avidya, one realizes that 'I am[always was/and always will be] That.' <font color="red"> As Lord Rama [of Ramayana] says in the Shiva Purana, 'We are all manifestations of Lord Shiva..' </font color>

 

Thus shrii shankara says in the aatmashhaTakaM

 

manobuddhyaha.nkaarachittaani naahaM

na cha shrotrajivhe na cha ghraaNanetre .

na cha vyomabhuumiH na tejo na vaayuH

chidaana.ndaruupaH shivo.ahaM shivo.aham.h

I am not the intellect, ego, mind. Neither am I hearing, taste, smell, sight. Nor am I space, earth, light, air, field of consciousness. I am the pure consciousness of bliss. I am Shiva. I am Shiva.

 

[shiva here means pure consciousness].

 

daasaste.ahaM dehadR^ishhTyaa.asmi shaMbho

jaatasteM.asho jiivadR^ishhTyaa tridR^ishhTe |

sarvasyaa.a.atmannaatmadR^ishhTyaa tvameve\-

tyevaM me dhiirnishchitaa sarvashaastraiH ||

<font color="red"> Oh Lord ! In the form of body I am your servant. In the form of life, O three-eyed one, I am part of yourself. In the form of soul, you are within me and in every other soul. I have arrived at this conclusion through my intellect and on the authority of the various scriptures." </font color>

 

The last para realy inspires me.....can i know the opinion of the wise in the forum who believes in the verse from veda which states <font color="blue">"Iam One, the wise know me by many forms" </font color>

 

 

[bhadramoorthi 0]

I agree with your points completely.

 

Also Lord Siva manifests into Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, Iswara and SadaSiva

[Guest guest]

He is invisible, unmanifest and Nirguna (formless), but to please his devotees whose mind cannot comprehend His glory, He takes on forms to bless them.

--that conclusion is not really the explanation of the reality.. it is only purposeful to make a step out from the buddhism. To believe that the absolute is nirguna is much better than to believe that the absolute does not exist.

 

But Sri Shankara Acharya shows his real and inner belief when he chants "bhaja govinda.."

 

all the following conclusions are polluted by your initial error.. so it is useless to discuss them

 

(shiva is a sat cit ananda individual.. ABSOLUTE reality... not a subordinate of nirguna brahman, do not criticize Lord Shiva please)

[Guest guest]

text 45

ksrim yatha dadhi vikara-visesa-yogat

sanjayate na hi tatah prthag asti hetoh

yah samhutam api tatha samupaiti karyad

govindam adhi purusam tam aham bhajami

JUST AS MILK IS TRANSFORMED INTO CURDS BY THE ACTION OF ACIDS,BUT YET THE EFFECTS IS NEITHER SAME AS,NOR DIFFERENT FROM ITS CAUSE,VIZ.,MILK,SO I ADORE THE PRIMEVAL LORD GOVINDA OF WHOM THE STATE OF SAMBHU IS A TRASFORMATION FOR THE PREFORMANVE OF THE WORK OF DISTRUCTION.

 

PURPORT BY SRILA BHAKTISIDDANTA SARASVATI GOSWAMI THAKURA

 

(The real nature of Sambhu ,the presiding diety of Mahesadhama is described)Sambhu is not a second Godhead other than Krsna.Those ,who enterian such discriminating sentiment ,commit a great offense againist the Supreme Lord .

The supremancy of Sambhu is subservient to that of Govinda;hence they are not really diffrent from each other.

The non-distinction is estabished by the fact that just as milk treated with acid turns into curd so Godhead becomes subservient when He Himeslf attains a distinct personality by the addition of a particular element of adulteration.

this personality has no independent initive.The said adulterating principle is constituted of a combination of the stupefying quailty of the deluding energy .the quailty of nonplenitude of the marginal potency and a slight degree of the ecstatic -cum- cognitive principle of the plenary spiritual potency.

This speifically adulterated reflection of the principle

of the subjective portion of the Divinity is Sadasiva,in the form of the effulgent masculine-symbol god Sambhu. from whom Rudradeva is manifested .

In the work of mundane creation as the material cause ,in the work of preservation by the destruction of sundry asuras and in the work of distruction to conduct the whole operation,Govinda manifests Himself as guna-avantara in the form of Sambhu who is the separated portion of Govinda imbued with the principle of His subjective plenary portion.

The personality of the destructive principle in the form of time has been identified with that of Sambhu by scriptural evidences that have been adduced in the commentary .The purport of the Bhagavata slokas,viz., vasis-navanam yatha sambhuh,ecty.,is that Sambhu.in the pursuance of the will of Govinda ,works in union with his consort Durga-devi by his own time energy,

He teaches pios duties(dharma_)various tantra-sastras,ect suitable for jivas in diffrent grades of conditional existence.In the obedience to the will of Govinda by preaching the cult of illusionism (Mayavada)

and speculative agama-sastras .

The 50 attributes of indiviual souls are manifest in a far vaster measure in Sambhu and 5 additional attributes not attainable by jivas are also partly found in him.

So Sambhu cannot be called jiva ,He is the lord of jiva but yet partakes of the nature of a separated portion of Govinda.

 

My humble obeisances unto the Lotus Feet Of Srila Sarasvati THAKURA Prabhupada

The eternal master of my Spiritual Master Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

and to all the humble devottees that try to understand the the truth from the Authorizied sources

YS

Pita dasa

 

 

[thiruvengadam 0]

-----

But Sri Shankara Acharya shows his real and inner belief when he chants "bhaja govinda.."

-----

unlike u vaisnavites we saivites always know how to respect govinda for we realise that govinda is non other than Shiva....and my dear,did u note that by saying "Sri Shankara Acharya shows his real and inner belief " u dont say that shankaracharya is a great govinda devotee but u only mean that shankara was a fake for he had something in his heart and preaches something else to the people....what else can u mean by "real and inner belief"..do u mean that he has a outerself?

 

who denied that shiva is obsolute reality? i only say that shiva is the concept of all concepts....by meaning absoute reality i dont mean his blood and skin....i mean His omnipresence......do u think u can confine shiva with just a sketch of his? He is maha vishnu,he is Brahma....He is Brahman.....that is why i meant that is the concept of all concepts.....the forms we give to him are subjected to our human mind...he is far beyond that......u know why shiva is worhipped as shiva linka? do u what the shiva links represents? now do go back and tell me ur vaishnava tale of a rishi wanting to find, who amoung the trinity is the greatest cursed shiva that he will not be prayed in his form.....the truth is that the linga has no begining nor end....it implies that God is formless and comes in the form in which we please just to please us.....the concept of linga came when maha vishnu and brahma were fighting for supremacy and shiva appeared as an infinite fire pillar and said that who finds the pillar's end is the supreme....both accepted defeat and bowed down at shiva's feet....it was then shiva proclaimed that maha vishnu will be know as his equal....for brahma lied that he found the end with the support of the ketaki flower....

[thiruvengadam 0]

in devaram it is sung

"thedi knadukonden, thitumalum (vishnu) nanmugannum (brahma) thedi thedonar devanai enullai thedi knadukonden"

 

it means that "i found Lord shiva (whom even maha vishnu and brahma couldnt find) when i searched in me (myself)..."

 

devaram is full of devotion....when it says that i found Lord Shiva in me what does it mean? it means that God is in u....Advaitam....

 

the problem with vaishnavites is that they can only read line by line ...they cant read indetween lines to get the true essence of what is actually been said with the help of these lines....

 

if ur so purticular to quote from Sri Brahma, then i would like to quote from the Rigveda....the most ancient and the most auspicious of all that has been written...

"

"God, verily, is one, though variously described since the functions are manifold and His divine attributes many. Compareed to Him, we, the tiny little selves, are infinitesimals whilst He is Infinity in all positive parameters. To this divine one, ....., in the words of the Vedic texts, offers invocations in various adjectivals and adveribials, according to His attributes and functions. So often, we prefer to call Him agni, the foremost adorable, sometimes indra, the most resplendent, sometimes varuNa, or the most venerable, sometimes as aryaman, the supreme law-giver; He alone is the divine virility and vitality in us, and is therefore known as rudra; He verily, is the savitR, since everything is born of Him; He is divya, or effulgent; He is the law-abider, and hence is known as yama; He alone is the measure and a benevolent friend to us, and hence, His name is mitra; He is the supreme Lord and therefore bRihaspati and brahman; He pervades the entire universe and hence He is viShNu; He is blissful and hence known as soma and on account of His benevolence and kindness, He is called, shiva, shankara and mayaskara."

The Veda stands for the purest type of monotheism.

 

now dare to compare this with any other book by any guru, including the puranas (when contradict themself....do u know that out of 18 puranas 6 talks on the supremacy of shiva and 6 on vishnu...if u can come with one purana then i can come with another)and claim it to be wrong.....

[Guest guest]

what man r u thinking?........to one post u say i support siva advaita school........then where the difference between vishnu and siva came that Vishnu has to touch Shiva's feet and then as if proclaiming the cartinal in Rome, Shiva proclaims that Vishnu is equal to him.......hmm nice humour.......i pity u people very much...

 

i know u dont follow advaita or saivism....ur main aim is to oppose Vaishnavism and u have chosen so many paths for it.anyhow dont say one day "in an election shiva got absolute majority and hence president Divine mother proclaimed Shiva as PM and Vaishnvaism is a fit for nothing opposition".....

 

please stop this type of stupid discussions

[thiruvengadam 0]

-----

what man r u thinking?........

-----

iam thinking that ur the greatest man on earth and that ur wisdom knows no bounds.....iam thinking whether to become ur devotee or not.....

 

---

i know u dont follow advaita or saivism....ur main aim is to oppose Vaishnavism and u have chosen so many paths for it.anyhow dont say one day "in an election shiva got absolute majority and hence president Divine mother proclaimed Shiva as PM and Vaishnvaism is a fit for nothing opposition".....

---

i just couldnt control myself from laughing....

 

u vaishnavites have ur won way....i never denied it...do have a look at this thread "vedas prove the supremacy of vishnu" and u will understand why u vaishnavas have gained such great respect and love from the people of other sects....i always wonder at the great interpretation skills u have....from where did u learn this?

 

---

i pity u people very much...

---

stop pitying us and reply for the questions i have asked u regarding Sri Shankara acharya having a real and inner belief...if u cannot answer u will come with a conclusion that its a stupid discussion.....hey i know u people....ur policy is go to a person, first tell him kindly that krishna is God head,if he doesnt accept then threaten him.if he still doent accept them bang him on his head and run away...

 

o great of the greates didnt u note that i have declared that iam a saivite and though i believe in one God, didnt i make it clear that i see Him as Shiva? if ur were not clear then, make it clear now.....at the same time i have great respect for maha vishnu for i believ vishnu is non other than shiva when shiva does the work of protection....

 

<font color="blue"> for sensible vaisnavites iam really sorry for the irony in my post-hope u understand what brought me to that level.iam really sorry if i have hurt ur feelings..the above post is only meant for fanatics in vaishnavism...i would appreciate any sensible discussion from ur side...iam not a kind of person who wont accept his mistakes...we shall discuss healty and try to know more about our religion and at the same time learn to respect each others sects and religion.</font color>

 

there is this sincere question i wan to ask...hinduism is made up of broadly 6 sects (if iam not wrong) but why is that the conflict is only between vaisnavism and the other sects....i never saw any conflict between the other 5 sects....why so?does it shows the attitude of vaishnavite who can not accept a second stand even in sects where they dont have prime importances?do clarify my doubt....its a sincere question....

 

 

[Guest guest]

unlike u vaisnavites we saivites always know how to respect govinda for we realise that govinda is non other than Shiva....

--shankara is not ignorant.. if he wants he can chant "bhaja shiva..." if he wants to chant about "shiva.."

But with you there's a bigger problem.. you believe that Shiva and Govinda areillusory and Brahman the only absolute truth

 

who denied that shiva is obsolute reality? i only say that shiva is the concept of all concepts....

--concept means that you have conceived shiva inyour limited mind... that's not absolute. Shiva is a concept and the transcendental identity who's beyond such concept. Shiva is ALL REAL... form,body, personality, concept, activity, associates and behaviour.... ALLTRANSCENDENTAL.

Do not givelimits to Sri Shiva thinking that something of Him is real, something unreal...

 

.the forms we give to him are subjected to our human mind..

---again you are blaspheming Shiva saying that his transcendental form is created by your mind

 

..

 

 

[ramanuja 0]

Hello All,

 

I am Ramanuja from Srirangam,Trichy.

I belong to Vada Kalai sampradayam of Sri Vaishnavism expounded by Sri Sri Ramanujar.

 

The person Sri Maan Thiruvengadam, says that all other sects join on one side and Vaishnavism stands alone.

 

Yes,its true.When the incarnation of Shiva,Adi Shankara Bhagavad . came to this world,his mission was to misguide the egoistic people who sacrificed animals and spoke of caste system inspite of the Buddha Avatara of Emperuman opposing them.

 

So as a mission,he had to deceive arrongant people and protect Bhakthi yoga far beyond the reach of arrongant fellows.

But the entire secret of Emperuman Maha Vishnu,he revealed in Bhaja Govindam.

 

Thats why we say follow Shiva but not imitate him.Shankarar can claim he is God because he is Shiva himself.But not we.

 

And all other sects got merged in advaita losing their identity and very few Veera Shaivas exist to remain separate from advaitic illusion.

 

But it is our pride Vaishnavism that stood the tough times of Shankara Dig Vijayam and with the grace of Periya Perumal of Srirangam,still glorin brightly all over the world.

 

Emperuman Thiruvadigale Charanam!!!!!!!

 

Adiyen Bhagavada Dasan,

Ramanuja

 

[thiruvengadam 0]

----

Yes,its true.When the incarnation of Shiva,Adi Shankara Bhagavad . came to this world,his mission was to misguide the egoistic people who sacrificed animals and spoke of caste system inspite of the Buddha Avatara of Emperuman opposing them.

---

 

hey cant u people say anything else.....?

anything u cant accept or anything wich doesnt accepts the superiority of vishnu, u people call it a mission to misguide the egoistic people.....very funny

 

if u call other sects as egoistic people then who ru? ur the most egoistic person i have ever seen....

 

iam getting sick of ur posts.....this forum is becoming really unbearable....

 

iam get

[Guest guest]

the thing is very simple..

 

you write some fantasy..

 

some one gives some philosophical objections..

 

you don't know how to answer..

 

simple and clear

[Guest guest]

u call that a philosophical explanation?

hahaha....

[Guest guest]

philosophy sometimes can be very simple...

[Guest guest]

philosophies can be simple yet be very complexed in their meaning....

[Guest guest]

All the dualistic interpretions of the various sects of Hinduism are misguided and are not based on the Upanishads.

The truth is beyond conception and can only be known in Samadhi.It is truly absurd and immature to argue whether vishnu is superior to or equal to shiva since from the point of view of vishnu and shiva there is no separation.

What Shankaracharya has realized all can realize as the SELF is common to all. We need not grovel at the feet of brahmins and idols but we can realize our true nature as being completely FREE!

 

[Guest guest]

Shivam is the pure intelligence in which everything resides. And in those who give control of their Shakti to this saktiman purusa, in them the saktiman purusa manifests as the third eye -- the knowledge.

 

 

[Guest guest]

****** But Sri Shankara Acharya shows his real and inner belief when he chants "bhaja govinda.."*******

 

 

Dear Guest,

 

Why every discussion has to become comparison? Lord is Lord. Sankara wrote bhakti hymns for Shiva, Parvati, Ganesha, Dakshinamurti, Vishnu -- all. Knowing that He is praising in bhakti mode the supreme being who is undefinable, unthinkable, unspeakable and neti-neti.

 

Is it not because we want our God to be in our mould and as per our thinking and preference that we compare ? God cannot be in our mould. We are in his mould as he wishes. God is all.

 

What you say about Bhaja Govindam is actually a proof of unlimited God. Sankara has written for bhaktas like us on all dieties. Pick your preference and do not belittle the other.

 

Whether you agree or not belittling is a sign of inferiority complex.

 

If you gain the knowledge, you will know that Vishnu is Shiva's Shakti and Shiva is Vishnu's shakti. Shiva and Vishnu are two sides of one coin and the coin is the Lord (for this example).

 

Sankara in Sivanand lahari calls Shiva by the name of Mahalakshmi. And Shakti he calls Vishnu.

 

I have seen the same thing in Upanishads (if you are not inclined to agree with Sankara).

 

 

With love to all Saivaa and Vaishnavas.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"But Sri Shankara Acharya shows his real and inner belief when he chants "bhaja govinda.."

 

Just because he says bhaja govinda, doesn't mean he accepts Krsna as the only Supreme.

 

All it means is that bhakti is as valid a path as any to reach God. Perhaps it is more powerful than any path, and for that, you need an entity to worship, or at least most do. So he picks Krsna as one to worship and sing praises of. That does not mean he believes in Dvaita. It just means he can divorce his mind from his heart, and know God in two different ways, the way God may actually be, and the way he idealizes God to be.

[Guest guest]

Mr Thiruvengadam,

 

your anger is uncalled for...read the post carefully...it reads,i quote, "egoistic people who sacrificed animals"- not everybody. Everybody who has a material body are egoistic, if you get angry for that, that is sad. So, people who are self-centered and kill animals for their gain are not correct and hence Sri Sankara emerged.

 

So, please read the post properly and reply.

 

Thanks

 

anand

[thiruvengadam 0]

Dear Mr.Ramanuja,

 

No matter which ever group of people u point to, ur whole arguments fails when u say that Shankara took birth to misguide others.....

 

its very easy to say such statements when u cant disprove what has been told in advaita....it is equivalent to the christians calling other Gods as devils.....as simple as it

 

i dont object when u fight for what u believe is right....i only object when u fight claiming that what others believe is not right....who r u to say what is right and what is not right? did Vishnu come and say that all other Gods are inferior to him?infact in gita krishna says aim rudra....what explanation do u give for this?when krishna is rudra then definitely rudra is krishan....the point is very clear....right from the vedas, upanishads to Gita the essence of Advaita is very clear...God is one...if God is one then from where comes the claim of superiority?if He is all then how com His one form be greater than the other?

 

OM NAMA SHIVAYA

[Guest guest]

Its Good to have a debate always. Debates used to happen those day too like Ashtavakra' or Gargi's debates. But it should be in a more polite manner. Lets pray Goddess Sarawati for that.

 

Anyway I think, there are several Marga's to devotion as said in the the Bhagavadgita. Its left to the individuals to choose the marga they like and convenient. Because different people of different profession find different margas as convenient.

 

I have feeling that Shankaracharya or Ramanujacharya showed us the margas and interpretations in their Bhaasyas. I do not think they forced their interpretations on people. Its probably some fanatic Gurus/followers down the centuries who forced it on people.

 

We have thousands of sects/subsects/sub sub sects today, each following some interpretation in India that people are not able to follow many of them in the modern world and just ignoring them or follow them partly.

I wonder how these sects came into existence.

 

 

I welcome interpretations on this by people in the Forum.

[Guest guest]

Its Good to have a debate always. Debates used to happen those day too like Ashtavakra' or Gargi's debates. But it should be in a more polite manner. Lets pray Goddess Sarawati for that.

 

Anyway I think, there are several Marga's to devotion as said in the the Bhagavadgita. Its left to the individuals to choose the marga they like and convenient. Because different people of different profession find different margas as convenient.

 

I have feeling that Shankaracharya or Ramanujacharya showed us the margas and interpretations in their Bhaasyas. I do not think they forced their interpretations on people. Its probably some fanatic Gurus/followers down the centuries who forced it on people.

 

We have thousands of sects/subsects/sub sub sects today, each following some interpretation in India that people are not able to follow many of them in the modern world and just ignoring them or follow them partly.

I wonder how these sects came into existence.

 

 

I welcome interpretations on this by people in the Forum.

[barney 0]

While the world is fighting against terrorism and poverty we Hindus here are fighting who's diety is superior. The division in SSSD is not the scriptures but school of different thoughts. People of small mind would only say such whereas the knowledgable would accept all four as one but different approach. Praising Krishna or Vishnu is equalent to praising Shiva, Brahman or Sakthi. Follwers of Krishna from the west have a different concept due to the teaching of their Master who found the most effective way to convience the westerners to accept Krishna. The following of one Supreme Being which is emphasised in the Gita is in par with the Bible, Tora or Koran. ISKON found that it is better to speak of one Supreme Being to the West than to confuse them with multiple Gods.

 

Anyway most Hindus know and understand that God is one but they strongly believe that HE has the power to manifest in many forms and such forms are mentiond in the puranas. HARI and SHIVA are one and those who do not believe such are ignorant of the scriptures. Waging war of words would not solve or achive anything. We must study what Hinduism can do to help raise the standard of living of the poor Hindus. Go to the slums of India and see the suffering of these people who have been negleted by the corrupt politicians who only whan to make their own life

comfortable while the ordinary citizens suffer throughout their lives. Can the Hindu samaj do something about it?

 

Religious fanatics are not only against US but they are also against Hindus in India. Discuss on that issue to see what we Hindus can do to save Hinduism from such people. Let the moorthies do their part while we who are their ambassaors on earth do our part to protect mother earth and her children from being destroyed by sucide bombers. Just talking about the wonders of Krishna, Vishnu or Shiva will not save us from these aliens or feed the poor. We have a duty to our religion and fellow human beings so stop this nonsense and get craking.

[Guest guest]

I understand that one of the points in the Dvaita philosopy states that this world is REAL.

 

While Advaita indicates, world is UNREAL/Maya.

 

It just came to my mind that, it could be both, based on the way one sees. We have read in the science that Light behaves both like particle and as waves.

 

Krishna once demonstrated Maya to Narada which shows this world is all unreal. But at the same time, we are all living in a real world.

 

May be we need more illustrations for the interpretations and need to study/ meditate deeper on the scriptures. Surely they were written by great people and not by fools. they must be true. Hte only thing is we need to devote our time and soul to it.

 

I observed in many conversations that people having less knowledge talk more than those who have. I am not pointing anybody, but this happens often. We need to get more deeper knowledge and debates like this could help to share interpretations with more learned people in this Forum adding to the knowledge.