Mixed relationships and Hinduism

[Guest guest]

Is inter-caste marriage truly an atrocious thing as a lot of Hindus I know claim to be, or is it just more of a cultural thing? I read that some of you are saying that there are yogis and gurus that completely denounce the idea of caste (since it has evolved into something that's not very noble), so would these same people say that inter-caste marriage is okay? I know a lot of you say that caste is determined by qualities, but let's face it, a lot of uninformed Hindus still view caste as something you're born into and it will always be something that you're born into.

 

 

Is it true that inter-racial (Indian/white/black) relationships are clearly banned? For instance, is it a bad deed if a white man that chooses to adopt the Hindu philosophy, follows the Dharma and marries an Indian girl? Do the scriptures view inter-caste relationships as the equivalent of an Indian marrying a non-Indian, or is all of this just stuff that arose from culture?

 

 

[Guest guest]

i dont know anywhere where intercaste marraige is explicitly banned. that would be a cruel violation of human rights and a clear case of sin/adharma

 

i do believe that intercaste marraige should be allowed as i also believe the caste system as it is now is deplorable and wrong. marraige between two people that love eachother should be allowed, regardless of what each of the individual's circumstances are.

[Guest guest]

A lot of Hindu nationalists claim that inter-caste marriage and inter-racial relationships are "clearly banned" in the Bhagavad Gita.

 

 

In my college textbook for my religion class, it included a lot of "supposed verses" from Hindu texts. I remember reading something that mentioned a Brahmin man marrying a Sudra woman would go to hell? Then again, this book was written by a white author, and I understand that a lot of books try to misrepresent Hinduism and post things that wouldn't be considered "scriptures" to noble Hindus. Also, I was raised that Hindus don't believe in the abrahamic concept of hell. So, I guess that quote about the Brahmin man doesn't make sense.

 

 

 

I have seen cases (people I know) where "high-caste" women divorce their husbands, because they were very abusive, unfaithful and cruel to them. These same women end up finding kinder men, but their husbands are of a different caste. For example, my mom's friend married a Vaishya man (who is a great person and treats her w/equality and respect), when she was a Kshatriya. The male relatives, who consider themselves to be very religious, throw a huge fit and blame the woman.

 

 

I don't understand, isn't it wrong to treat your wife like an animal in the first place? Doesn't everybody have the right to a happy marriage? Why would the relatives get mad at for divorcing such a horrible husband that doesn't respect his own wife, and remarrying somebody that treats her right and makes a successful marriage?

 

 

Since these people consider themselves to be so religious, I was just wondering if there were any verses that labeled inter-caste marriage to be bad. I'm just trying to understand what makes them so angry. I personally think one's character should matter more than social caste when it comes to finding a life partner. I think that would be common sense for anybody. My mom told me that some people in India get mad at these things, because marrying within your caste has been ingrained within our culture for thousands of years, and that people want to preserve the ways of Indian culture.

 

 

Is maintaining a tradition more important than doing what you think is right in Indian culture?

 

 

Being a second-generation Indian-American, I just don't understand these things..........

 

[Guest guest]

so it's a little different from the Abrahamic version of hell, because that hell is a final resting place.

 

In Hinduism, you do go to hell or heaven, but it's only temporary and then you're back on Earth trying to extinguish your desires so you can merge with Brahman finally.

 

Heaven and hell are mentioned in the Mahabharata that I read at least.

[Guest guest]

{A lot of Hindu nationalists claim that inter-caste marriage and inter-racial relationships are "clearly banned" in the Bhagavad Gita.}

 

Which Hindu nationalists have said this? I don't know of one. I find alot of them are actually anti-caste. Inter-caste and inter-racial relationships are not banned in the Gita rather the true meaning of caste determined by actions and not birth is explained well. In the beginning of the Gita there is a part where Arjuna says that traditions die if women marry outside of caste/clan, etc. Well that was true back in those days because traditions were very important and different castes really did follow a different way of life to others, ate different foods, reacted differently, etc. It's clear to see that in those times if a woman married out of caste she would have to adpat to the way of life of her husbands caste with may be very different to what she was brought up with. Also her family looses out as they have lost those traditions they taught forever. Of corse that's not relevant to that extent today, however that is the reason parents still want their kids to at least marry Hindus. I think most parents would say to their kids if they wanted to marry a partner of a different race is, "What's wrong with an Indian? Why couldn't you find an Indian partner?". Most parents expect their kids to marry another Indian, no questions asked.

[Guest guest]

There were a couple of "Hindu nationalists" posting on a regular Desi talk forum, and were lecturing that inter-caste marriage will result in moral decline and how they considered it to be the equivalent of race-mixing. Another Indian man was claiming that most Indians are "pure Aryans," because race-mixing is "banned in the Bhagavad Gita." You have to forgive me, since I don't know much about Hindu Nationalism. I went ahead and took these men's word for it when they told me that "most Hindu nationalists agreed with these things."

 

 

 

That makes sense about the cultural traditions dying out when you marry a different caste, but you're also right how that doesn't necessarily exist today. All of the inter-caste/inter-geographical location (Punjabi marrying a Telegu) couples I know are doing perfectly fine. I have Hindu friends from different backgrounds. My parents have Hindu friends from different backgrounds. We all get along very well and still have a lot in common. There are no major differences. When it all comes down to it, it's the same culture. I think we are better off if we all reunite, instead making such a fuss about little differences (being from Punjab when somebody else is from Gujurat).

 

 

I completely understand why Indian parents would want their kids to marry a Hindu. It's just the caste thing that I didn't understand. Thankfully, my parents aren't obsessed with caste and they are happy as long as my partner is Indian.

 

 

Since I was asking about caste, it just led me to be curious about inter-racial relationships as well, since those same Hindu nationalists that I have talked to claimed that marrying a non-Indian is a "sin."

[maadhav 0]

<< I completely understand why Indian parents would want their kids to marry a Hindu. It's just the caste thing that I didn't understand. >>

 

current caste or jati when used as un-human or unspiritual discrimination is actualy malprctice of the varnasrma dharma as given in gita and the vedas.

 

mixing of varnas is not encouragd in the vedic culture.

if each varna does its duty per gita, and raises its childen into that culture and dharma, then the whole society can progress towards god regardless of which varna one is.

 

currently there are very few people practicing their own varna dharma fully or correctly. consequently most people are shudras. so, in that sense any one can marry any one else as long as both parites agree to live in peace for them selves and for others.

 

when varna A person marries varna B person, then one or both need to compromise one's own varna dharma or give up one and pick the spouse's varna dharma. this is difficult and can become a cause for strife. that is why it is wise to marry one like you in guna and karma.

 

every society in the world has caste in one form or another. an educated person will not marry a street bum, no matter how much a street bum wants to marry a queen.

 

businessmen will marry in businessmen families,

politicians to politicians, etc. you will not find a rich person marry a janitor. so this is caste in practice everywhere, it is not wrong. each needs to understand one's place in society and the value each varna contributes to the society, and respect each other.

 

<< Thankfully, my parents aren't obsessed with caste and they are happy as long as my partner is Indian. >>

 

this also is a wise discrimination. they believe that an indian will have some vedic culture in his sanskaras.

that will cause less or no problem for you, they believe.

 

unfortunately, there are some Indians in body only and not is soul. so, choose as you like.

 

<< Since I was asking about caste, it just led me to be curious about inter-racial relationships as well, since those same Hindu nationalists that I have talked to claimed that marrying a non-Indian is a "sin." >>

 

it is sin when you care for the vedic culture and live by it seriosuly, and when you know it is the most wonderful thing on this earth, and then you give it up (or deprive a hindu boy to marry you, and have hindu children raised) and marry some one who is anti-hindu and will force you to give up hinduism.

 

a culture is transferred to new genertion by the mothers. if mothers give up hinduism, hinduism will be dead in 25 years. that is why muslims go way out to entice hindu girls to marry them and then force them to become muslims, or just use them as whores and make money.

 

there are non indians who live by the vedic culture.

you could marry them and there is no sin doing it.

i assume you are a hindu.

 

[Guest guest]

"currently there are very few people practicing their own varna dharma fully or correctly. consequently most people are shudras."

 

 

Wait, I thought all of the varnas were considered equal in the scriptures, and that true Hindus don't discriminate between higher and lower beings? So, was being a Shudra basically always considered a bad thing?

 

 

"there are non indians who live by the vedic culture.

you could marry them and there is no sin doing it.

"

 

 

Yes, that's exactly what I asked in my initial post--If it's okay to marry a non-Indian that devotes him/herself to vedic culture. Obviously, there's going to problems when a Hindu marries a non-Indian Christian/Jewish/Muslim.

 

 

 

"i assume you are a hindu."

 

Yes, I am. Let me just clarify that I personally would like to stay within my race (Indian), but I was just plain curious about the inter-racial question.

 

[Guest guest]

{Wait, I thought all of the varnas were considered equal in the scriptures, and that true Hindus don't discriminate between higher and lower beings? So, was being a Shudra basically always considered a bad thing?}

 

The problems starts when those born into the family of a certain caste believe they are of that caste no matter what they do and treat others as 'lower' or 'higher'. According to the religion varna or caste is determined by actions and qualities in a person (gunas) - the type of person they are not what family they come from. But for a long time people have been calling themselves of the caste they were born into even if they lack the virtues or temprament of people of those case. Marrying into another family with the same caste/background is a cultural tradition not religion, through it has now become inter-twined. That is why the caste systems is such as mess.

 

It will die out soon as cultures are always evolving, always adapting. For example there's no way the Indians in US and UK will have the same culture as those in India. As a matter of fact even in India those in the cites have a different culture to those in villages and every state has a different culture to the neighboring state.

 

Now a shudra is not born into a family who were traditionally known as 'shudras'. A shudra becomes that by his/her actions. A Person born into a Brahmin family can become a shudra and vice-versa. In the case of Valmiki he was a shudra who became a Brahmin due to his actions and now is one of the most respected sages in Hinduism.

 

{Yes, that's exactly what I asked in my initial post--If it's okay to marry a non-Indian that devotes him/herself to vedic culture. Obviously, there's going to problems when a Hindu marries a non-Indian Christian/Jewish/Muslim.}

 

Yes, as long as it's not a mixed-religion marriages there shouldn't be a problem, though parents will still want their kids to marry Indians. I know of one case where and Indian guy married a girl and his parents were very happy, but then again she was 1/2 Indian. Though there still are a few westerners who live the Hindu life, such as David Frawley, they are few and far between. Some of the westerners who take it very seriously actually become monks, like those of the Ramakrishna order in the west as well as the Hare Krishnas.

 

 

[barney 0]

Just follow your heart and be peace with yourself and God. Some of them here contradict their own statment and the scriptures. You are a girl and should follow the boy's path if he insist but if he wishes to follow your path that would be fine. Marriage to two souls is based on love and understanding. If the two does not exist even if you marry in your own race and relgion it would be disastrous and life would be hell. So be wise and go with your heart.

[Guest guest]

Barney, no need for you to get arrogant again as you like to do so on these boards. She just came asking the view of Hinduism on inter-case and inter-racial marriages. And people said what they knew about it. She's not talking about her own relationships, either.

 

Barney, just remember you only represent your own point of view and not the view of some authority on Hinduism. Suppose a girl was with a muslim partner and he insisted she convert to Islam and say goodbye to Hinduism, your advice would be to go ahead with the conversion! Even if the girl was happy being a Hindu? Well who needs missionaries when we have people like you! Before you calling other people utter rubbish, why don't you take a look in the mirror?

[barney 0]

If you are a Hindu than you must believe in destiny and karma. But I don't think you understand that do you? So, commenting to your reply will be a waste of time.

[maadhav 0]

"currently there are very few people practicing their own varna dharma fully or correctly. consequently most people are shudras."

 

<< Wait, I thought all of the varnas were considered equal in the scriptures, and that true Hindus don't discriminate between higher and lower beings? So, was being a Shudra basically always considered a bad thing? >>

 

the scripture compare the vedic society to a person

whoss head is brahanas

arms are kshatriyas,

belly is vaishyas,

and legs are shudras.

 

now, no part can live without the other three, still

head has more importance than armass,

arms are more important than belly,

and belly is more important than legs.

 

shudras do labor mostly.

and no one likes to do labor.

this class is the least intelligent.

the only thing they can do is labor/service.

 

becaue of that shudras are usually poor.

but in an ideal vedic society, they are taken care of.

 

unfortunatley the hindus malprcticed varnasram for a long time.

 

drona was a brahmana by nature, but then he also chose to act like a kshatriya. same for chanakya.

 

after independece the congressies made many shudras school teachers and politicians. India is suffering due to this since then.

 

as time demands, one can develop guna and karma of another varna.

 

India has produced many saints from shudras.

and saints are above brahmans even.

 

 

[barney 0]

#now, no part can live without the other three, still

head has more importance than armass,

arms are more important than belly,

and belly is more important than legs".

 

You forgot that legs are more important than all the other parts, as without it you cannot move an inch accept to crawl in your butt.

 

maadhavji, come back to the ground instead of foating in the air.

 

#shudras do labor mostly.

and no one likes to do labor.

this class is the least intelligent.

the only thing they can do is labor/service.

 

becaue of that shudras are usually poor.

but in an ideal vedic society, they are taken care of#.

 

This is total suppression of the backward people by the upper class morons including ignorant brahmins who misquote the scriptures to the illetrate backward people so the they can keep them at bay and make them do all the labour work which the lazy zamidars and rich would not. Working in the fields has nothing to do with gunas. If a sudra is more compassion and loving towards God and his creatures around him then he is a better human being then the snobbish brahmins.

 

What are you trying to spread here maadhavji? Unnity among Hindus or segragation? I wonder who your guru is?

 

 

[maadhav 0]

once a reporter asked prabhupada

what he would do if he gets power.

 

prabhupada said (in my words:) "i would make sure that each person follows his religion strictly. or i will punish him."

 

the idea is that no one should malpractice one's religion, but it is unfortunate that all do, and hindus also do malpractice. that needs to stop.

 

as i have said, we need work to do within, and without.

 

[Guest guest]

I thought you are a reasonable guy.

 

I think, one can live without the legs and arm etc. I cannot imagine anyone alive without head ( may be you might have seen someone without head).

 

There is nothing wrong with the caste system. Problems for dalits are caused not by brahmans, but by caste hindus.

 

And if you are aware of reality, brahmans are the one caste who are discriminated against by the governments in India.

[barney 0]

Do not judge a book by its cover. Is reasonable being discriminate about caste? Here we are trying to do away with caste yet there are some of them trying to segregate the Hindus by caste. First find the defination for Brahmin and then come back to me. In this 21st century a labourer's son has become a doctor, an engineer, admistrator, a temple gurukal and infact in my country one was a Havard graduate who became a health minister. So, where is your caste consciousness if you think it must prevail. Do you think children from the sudras should be deprived of proprer education? Is that what Hinduism teaches you and Maadhav? You must be kidding...

[Guest guest]

Barney you are a speculator. Speculate speculate thats all you can do.

 

no reasoning based on scripture, just throw in gibberish with great fervor to see it accepted by others.

 

Mental speculator.

[Guest guest]

{If you are a Hindu than you must believe in destiny and karma.}

 

Well in case you didn't know Barney, every second we live we can change out lives as we go along. Certain things will happen which are unavoidable, according to the law of karma but our lives have not been written before they happen, it's how we deal with the karma that will determine future karmas and it's effect. By your rationale we are like robots as if everything has been pre-determined. I've asked some swami's and gurus about this and they say we have freewill and we make our future by choices. It's easy to blame everything that happens and will ever happen on 'destiny' but it's rather irrational and a laid-back attitude to have.

 

Lose the arrogant stance barney and then we can talk. You know Hinduism says that pride and arrogance is a bad thing, so why not learn a lesson from the sages.

[Guest guest]

1. In India 50% of the seats in government cannot be accessed by Brahmins and upper caste hindus. DO you think this is not discrimination againt brahmins?

2. In Tamilnadu, 71% of the seats in Engineering, Medical or as a matter of fact any admission is not accessible to Brahmins. So is for government jobs.

3. When Kanchi Shankaracharya was arrested, Karunanidhi and other Dravidian politicians were happy that Brahminism has fallen.

 

These are facts. The fact is , in the current times brahmins are being suppressed.

So come to terms with reality. It may be different in Malaysia and Singapore, but in India, Brahmins are hunted down for no fault of theirs.

[Guest guest]

#every second we live we can change out lives as we go along#

 

If such changes has is destined to happen ten it would happen coz that is fated to happen. No one can escape the law of karma. If the girl is destined to marry someone of a diffeent race or religion then that is her karma and you or anyone else cannot change that. Your present life has be predestined according to your past karma and the future will be determind according to your present karma. Just like a sudra becoming an engineer or a doctor. If you think that is irrational then it is your way of thinking to avoid the subject.

 

#Lose the arrogant stance barney and then we can talk#

 

Why? Should I agree to everything you believe? You have your opinion and I have mine so that is not arrogancy but merely making a point. First you should study the karma sastra and learn to understand it. Destiny of life can be change provided it is destined to be so otherwise it what you have and will be.

[Guest guest]

I have nothing against Brahmins except that what Hinduism has become today is due to their ignorant, misinterpretation and orthodox way of thinking. Their ancestors refused to teach the non brahmins as they believed that it was their right to keep the sastras to themselves and instead misinterpreted the scriptures to the non brahmins by saying that only brahmins had the right to the scriptures and all others should only accept what is being told by them. Otherwise India would not be what it is today where hundreds of thousand converting to other relgions because they are fed up of being suppressed by the upper class Hindus. If you read the life of Swami Ragavendra you will learn that the Swami was snubbed by the brahmin community for reason that he thought the scripture to a cowheard. Have you not read that part? In TN DMK is the enemy of Hinduism and so is ADMK. I know at one time DMK members desecrated Hindu idols in temples during the Priyar's leadership. But yet Hindus of TN are still supporting this parties who are the enemies of Hinduism. Who formulated such laws? In fact there should not be any percentage to anyone accept on merits alone. If the people support such laws it was due to their own ignorancy of legislation. If a student of any class excels well in studies then he should be given prefrence and so is any job vacancy. TN government is a corrupted government from the leader to the office boy so here whoever bribes with more cash he would get a place filled irrespective of what class he belongs to. So, it is not discrimination but corruption.

[Guest guest]

There is nothing offensive since the initial question was raised concerning the intercaste marriage.

 

It is rightly answered that the law of karma and it’s workforce bring the eligible life partners together but there is also freewill. Man can make his own choice controlling his desires/greed. The choice is given to man considering both i.e. his present desires and his past deeds. The youngsters who always flirts looses in return on this ground. That is why we see sometimes that both the life-partners are not equally fair or intelligent etc. Besides, those who desire more than they deserve, have to sacrifice something in return after marriage takes place and the quarrels starts with the difference between the partners. Hinduism does not believe in relationships outside marriage. Hinduism is not against inter-cast marriages but priority is given to persons of identical castes because there is a lot common and lesser adjustments. If the required food is available in local market, we need not opt for national or international market to avoid complexities. Finally, it is the understanding between the husband and wife which prevails. (Please note that our purpose of life is not just marriage but realization of god.)

 

Drawbacks of cast System in Hinduism is another issue. In brief, in the past the low cast tribes in India have been suppressed to such an extent that they were not considered as part of Hindus. As a result, they converted themselves to ‘Bouddhha Dharma’. Therefore, to overcome their poverty and illiteracy, Indian Government provided concessions in the form of reservations etc. Unfortunately, this has not benefited those who are really suffering but those who are already living in urban areas. Richer became more rich. At the same time, not only Brahmins, but also the other class of people treated this against their rights.

 

[barney 0]

Yes, as I have said above intermarrige has its advantages and disadvantages but that would be the problem of the involed party to solve. Even marriage in the same community does not fair well. Dowry becomes the main issue and in these days for a man to accept the proposal many questions are put forth such as the status of the gril, her eduction, how much can the father in law could give as dowry and many other petty issues which could be avoided. Hinduism s not to be blamed for such behaviour of low mentality human beings.

 

It is the duty of every Hindu to teach the good moral in Hinduism and allow the followers to think rationaly. What was applied in the vedic period cannot be applied in all situation in today's world. Changes must be made to accomadate present state of time otherwise Hinduism would lose out to other faiths. Moderation is the key to spread Hinduism beyond the shores of India. Westerners love for Hinduism is the influence of Adviata Vedatham and Swami Vivekananda's influence in the west. So, we as Hindus, it is our duty to practice moderation instead of being authoritarians in order stop Hindus from becoming non Hindus.

[Guest guest]

{If such changes has is destined to happen ten it would happen coz that is fated to happen. No one can escape the law of karma. If the girl is destined to marry someone of a diffeent race or religion then that is her karma and you or anyone else cannot change that.}

 

No Barney, Karma and Fate is not the same thing. Destiny is not even a part of it but is a western way of thinking. It is quite hoplesss to say all that has ever happened is destiny and beyond our control. Certain things are beyond out control and that is karma, but we still have free will with how we face things and rise to challenges which determine the future karma and it's effects, otherwise the law of karma would be nonsense (if you believe in destiny). Who knows whether inter-racial or inter-religious marriages will be in a persons karma, but by saying it's destiny shows you're failing to look at the bigger picture. So if you believe more in Fate and destiny, you can't really believe in karma, since you believe we have no control and can't determine out future.

 

{You have your opinion and I have mine so that is not arrogancy but merely making a point.}

 

I was referring your arrogance in saying everyone else is talking rubbish (as if you alone talk sense). Please don't try to dodge that. You show alot of arrogance on these boards with different people who don't agree with your views.