what is a happy life

November 6, 2004

***********And that in my opinion is fool..*************

You may find out "who you are?"

Your opinion is worthless.

..worthless.. but you have simply no logical answers..

:-D

Ganeshprasad · November 7, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Re

(Like, a person who is in shade is in happiness but he does not know it. He goes out to scorching Sun and then he realizes that the original state was one of bliss. Rig Veda tells that in deep sleep jiva is one with Brahman but Jiva does not know it, since Lord veils the truth.)

in other words we can only be happy when we reconnect with Brahman(god)

Why does lord veils the truth? Did we desire that?

Re

THe same truth some sages state in different fashion: Consciousness plus waking is waking state. Consciousness plus dream is dream state. Consciousness plus deep sleep is sleep state. But pure Consciousness is ever there. This pure Consciousness is realizable during waking by stilling the mind (The Turiya state)

One who has control over the mind is tranquil in heat and cold, in pleasure and pain, and in honor and dishonor; and is ever steadfast with the Parmatma (6.07)

The mind is like a monkey, how does one still the mind to reach the Turiya state?

Because the mind, indeed, is very unsteady, turbulent, powerful, and obstinate, O Krishna. I think restraining the mind is as difficult as restraining the wind. (6.34)

Re

(The chinmudra of Lord Dakshinamurti is symbolic of this truth. The silence ensuing at the end of OM is also this truth. And a mind absorbed at the source of "I" is also this truth.)

Please expand what is chinmudra, who is Lord of Dakshinamurti?

I can understand the mind fixed on the source of I is easy to relate to but hard to fix.

*********What is the root of our desire?****************

re

(Scriptures say that the original proclamation of one concsiousness: "I am Brahman", is the original desire.)

I fail to see how the proclamation I am Brahman be root of my desire. The desire that leads to misery and pain.

Re

(Atanu was not born with his conscious free will. AS Atanu, he did not choose parents. Atanu did not know that he will participate in these debates. So, who desires?)

I am sure the karma is the answer to above.

Who am I? and Who desires? are the fundamental questions.

Re

(Moreover, do we carry load on our head when we board a train? Similarly, all load (as well as pleasurable acts and their fruits) can be simply surrendered to the Lord.)

In real sarnagati I am sure the lord carries all our burden, but like dog underneath a cart thinks he is carrying all the waight that is my sorry state.

**********Am I this ego?*****************

Re

(During deep meditation, when mind is not attached to external objects, the concept "I am this" is replaced by "I-I" or "I am". This is said to be pure Consciousness, which exists as ONE in the middle of everywhere and every being. It experiences "I am Atanu" and "That is Ganeshprasad". But all these experiencing is within one single Consciousness only. The ego sense assumes ownership of Atanu and starts ruling Atanu. Once that ego sense is sought, it is not found -- during meditation and on rational enquiry as well. And once ego (bhanda Asur) is killed Jiva is liberated. Actually jiva is free always but ego sense hides the truth.)

Who is this ego and from where does this come from?

Krishna says some thing like this, Ahankre Vimudh Atma thinks he is the doer I can not remember the whole sloka.

Re

In Br. Up., it is stated that Maya bound jivas are pasus to Devas, who do not like to lose control. For removal of the veil we need the grace of Aditi -- Lakshmi, Sarawaswati, and Durga.

This episode is recounted in Keno Up., wherein Durga grants the vision of Brahman to Indra.

One job of Durga (Shiva Duti) -- during Dasa Hara, is to kill Bhanda Asur (the shameless ego, which claims ownership of "I").

How does one receive the grace of Aditi?

Re

(Sir, I am sure, there is no ignorance for you. Only more and more practice in meditation will take you to the destination.)

I do not deserve your praise, but yes more one practice then the veil of ignorance is removed with the grace of the lord.

Re

(Devi Kalottara is a set of teaching imparted to Devi by Lord Shiva. Kallottara is that which comes at the end of time.

If you wish and If I find a digital copy, I will post it. )

Thanks that will be very nice

Jai Shree Krishna

Ganeshprasad · November 7, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Re

(All karma is of mind and not of soul.)

i do not understand, how can mind accumulate Karma it is a tool not the doer.

Re

(Even, Lord of the Universe gives control of his power of cognition and desire to Saktiman Purusa.)

Please explain is the lord of universe and saktiman purusa two different entity?

Jai Shree Krishna

November 7, 2004

Dear Ganesh Prasad Ji,

**********Please explain is the lord of universe and saktiman purusa two different entity?****************

Not at all. The Lord of the Universe is the embodied OM, comprising of the Consciousness and its movement in totality, and who has controlled His self by the Self (Purusa component of Him).

My self, my prana, my intellect, my senses, and my body cannot be independent beings. The consciousness is the root. When its movement subsides (when Devi comes in contact with the Lord), Turiaya and Turiyatta ensues.

Control of the monkey is the key.

Om Namah Vasudevayya Namah

Om Namah Sivayya

November 8, 2004

I feel timid to reply to you. But let us check each other on progress from time to time. There may be nothing novel for you in the following.

************in other words we can only be happy when we reconnect with Brahman (god)***********************

Is there is a question of reconnection? Since connection was never broken. Brahman is all, so where is the connection and lose connection? All this is consciousness alone. Seeing the body as self makes one see the solid universe and duality and the all pervading Sutratma is missed. But there is no lose connection.

So, happiness is simply in Hridaya. Do you have experience of suddenly waking up from deep sleep and feeling blissfull? Then mind statrs attaching to objects and the bliss goes.

Have you ever experienced this?

**************Why does lord veils the truth? Did we desire that? *******************

In Br. Up., it is stated that Maya bound jivas are pasus to Devas, who do not like to lose control. This is the only clear cut statement I can find. Most other explanations are hazy.

It is also told that when Jiva makes effort, Indra sends hurdles -- to test and perhaps also to obstruct.

In Yoga Vashishta, Lord Shiva tells sage Vashishta the following:

“Indeed only that cid akasha (the infinite consciousness) which alone exists even after the cosmic dissolution exists even now, utterly devoid of objectivity. The concepts and notions that are illumined by the consciousness within it shine as this creation on account of the movement of energy within consciousness, precisely as dreams arise during sleep. Otherwise it is totally impossible for an object of perception to exist outside of the consciousness.”

So, I feel that veiling is not intentional but is inherent energy (Devi) of consciousness like heat is the property of fire.

There is no real cause for the Universe but the energy of the Lord – and that again is unintentional. We invent cause and effect. Everything exists as it is eternally.

Vayu will not be known if not for its movement. Likewise, Brahman will not be known without its energy, which also is the Maya.

*************The mind is like a monkey, how does one still the mind to reach the Turiya state? *************************

By Self effort; total surrender with entire mind (bhakti), continuous nama japa, and Vicara constitute Self effort. Grace is constant.

**************Please expand what is chinmudra, who is Lord of Dakshinamurti?

I can understand the mind fixed on the source of I is easy to relate to but hard to fix.************************

Three open fingers indicate three maya states – waking, dream, and deep sleep. Two closed fingers, forming a circle indicate the constant underlying consciousness.

Lord Dakshinamurti is the south facing incarnation of Lord Shiva, who assumed this silent form to teach Sanaka etc., the mind born sons of Brahma, the Brahma gyan.

*********************I fail to see how the proclamation I am Brahman be root of my desire. The desire that leads to misery and pain.**********************

The proclamation is the root Aham Kara – the declaration “I am” and then “I am Brahman”.

Jiva is the vehicle of inherent energy of the consciousness, ego sense is the vehicle of jiva, intelligence of ego sense, mind of intelligence, prana of the mind, the senses of prana, the body of the senses and motion is the vehicle of the body. Such motion is karma.

Mind is conditioned consciousness, but the consciousness is not conditioned. The conditioning is a notion in consciousness. Taking this notion as real, mind assumes “I will do that” and “This is my object” etc. So, karma, which is as notional as the conditioning of the consciousness, resides in mind alone.

Realizing that the conditioning is a notion, one is freed of future karma but sanchita karma remains.

But due to non realization that the conditioning itself is a notion, association of I with the body assumes reality and then all ills follow.

********************Who is this ego and from where does this come from?

Krishna says some thing like this, Ahankre Vimudh Atma thinks he is the doer I can not remember the whole sloka.**************************

As said earlier, ego is aham kara – the cry of “I am Brahman”.

Fire is pure but its nature is to burn. Likewise, the soul is pure seer but its prakriti has the movement. Prakriti is not the “I” but it is of the “I”. Conditioned consciousness that the mind is, assumes identity of the movement and I.

***************How does one receive the grace of Aditi?******************

Aditi and Lord are not two different beings. Aditi means one without a second. Rig Veda states: Heaven, earth, gods, son, and sire – all is Aditi alone. Rig Veda also proclaims that the Lord is male but He is really a female.

So, worshipping the movement and Brahman as one is the prescription.

******************Re (All karma is of mind and not of soul.)

i do not understand, how can mind accumulate Karma it is a tool not the doer.*************

Mind accumulates karma in the form of notion and memory – conscious and sub conscious. Realizing the real nature of Mind, which is pure consciousness, clears off the notion.

“I did that” or “I have to do this” are wrong notions and these notions alone constitute karma.

Knowing that “Prakriti acts” is the prescription of the Lord.

Ganeshprasad · November 8, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Re

(I feel timid to reply to you. But let us check each other on progress from time to time. There may be nothing novel for you in the following.)

Why, you are much more learned then I am, I would love to keep up with each other from time to time. You are someone I can relate to as both of us have love for that supreme lord who goes by many names.

Everything you have written is refreshing and sometime hard for me to digest.

Re

(Is there is a question of reconnection? Since connection was never broken. Brahman is all, so where is the connection and lose connection? All this is consciousness alone. Seeing the body as self makes one see the solid universe and duality and the all pervading Sutratma is missed. But there is no lose connection.)

I like this, connection was never broken. So why do I feel detached?

So where from the avidhya comes to perceive the body as self?

**************Why does lord veils the truth? Did we desire that? *******************

re

(In Br. Up., it is stated that Maya bound jivas are pasus to Devas, who do not like to lose control. This is the only clear cut statement I can find. Most other explanations are hazy.)

are devas control freaks? Why are jivas maya bound? Desires-- again the same question why?

re

(It is also told that when Jiva makes effort, Indra sends hurdles -- to test and perhaps also to obstruct.)

yes we read this in purans all the time.

For the rest of your answers I have few questions which I will ask later if I may

meantime our only hope is the grace of aditi

*************The mind is like a monkey, how does one still the mind to reach the Turiya state? *************************

By Self effort; total surrender with entire mind (bhakti), continuous nama japa, and Vicara constitute Self effort. Grace is constant.

Shivam

Jai Shree Krishna

November 12, 2004

************I like this, connection was never broken. So why do I feel detached?

So where from the avidhya comes to perceive the body as self? ****************

The false sense of “I am this” during waking and dream states is the cause of duality and feeling of detachment. This resides in mind.

This false sense of “I am this” is not real but arises from a notion in consciousness.

Do you feel detached while in deep sleep? Do you know the mind in deep sleep? Do you say “I am this” in deep sleep?

Chhandogya Upanishad

Chapter III — The Serene Self and Satya Brahman

3

"That Self abides in the heart. The etymological explanation of heart is this: This one (ayam) is in the heart (hridi); therefore It is called the heart (hridayam). He who knows this goes every day in deep sleep to. Brahman, dwelling in the heart

Chapter VI — The Course after Death for the Illumined

3

When a man is asleep, with the senses withdrawn and serene and sees no dream, then he has entered into these arteries. Then no evil touches him, for he has obtained the light of the sun.

Chapter VIII — Concerning Sleep, Hunger, Thirst, and Death

1

Uddalaka the son of Aruna said to his son Svetaketu: "Learn from me, my dear, the true nature of sleep. When a person has entered into deep sleep, as it is called, then, my dear, he becomes united with Pure Being (Sat), he has gone to his own Self. That is why they say he is in deep sleep (svapiti); it is because he has gone (apita) to his own (svam).

*****************are devas control freaks? Why are jivas maya bound? Desires-- again the same question why?********************************

Why do not the Devas fight Asuras all the time?

Enquire “Who is maya bound?” and “Who has the desire?”

You are bound to find that it is not I that is maya bound or desirous. Since I is only a limiting notion in consciousness itself.

You may still ask the most difficult question: But why does consciousness limit itself?

Then I will ask you why does Agni Deva burn people? Why does Vayu deva cause destruction?

Lord Shiva instructs Vashista:

Cidasti hi Sartre ha sarvabhutamayatmika

Calonmukhatmikaika tu nirvikalpa para smrta

The omniscient consciousness which is all in all exists in this body both as the changing and as the unchanging and unmodified one.

Just as a woman dreams herself to be another with another as her husband in dream, the same consciousness assumes another aspect and functions differently. By stages, it assumes insentient and inert forms.

Consciousness thus becomes its own object and creates space, air, time etc within itself and becomes Jiva followed individualised finite intellect and mind. From this arises the world appearance and notions like “I am an untouchable” etc.

This consciousness which is conditioned by self-limitation is afraid of itself.

End of citation

So, I feel that self limitation is inherent nature of consciousness like burning to ash is the nature of fire. But returning back to the highest state is also the nature of consciousness.

Lord Shiva again teaches;

Consciousness does not truly undergo any modification, nor does it become impure. The impurity itself is imaginary; imagination is the impurity. When this is realized the imagination is abandoned and impurity ceases. By self-effort this imagination can be easily rejected: if one can drop a piece of straw, one can with equal ease also drop the three worlds!

End of Citation

So, Lord Shiva says that it is easy.

Ganeshprasad · November 12, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Re

(Not answers but discussions)

With every answer raises a new question.

But today on this auspicious day of Diwali I like to wish you and every one, Diwali greetings and happy New Year

Diwali is joyous occasion the home coming of Sri Ram

Triumph of good over evil

Time for reflection.

Tasoma joytirGamaya

Once again HAPPY DIWALI TO ALL.

Jai Shree Krishna

November 12, 2004

Let us have bi-directional question answer sessions.

Such sessions may be better than the inane supremacy and oneness vs. many ness discussions I get etangled in.

Ganeshprasad · November 13, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Re

(The false sense of “I am this” during waking and dream states is the cause of duality and feeling of detachment. This resides in mind.)

Tell me what is not false? Whose mind?

Re

(This false sense of “I am this” is not real but arises from a notion in consciousness.)

What ever arises must have some reality.

Re

(Do you feel detached while in deep sleep? Do you know the mind in deep sleep? Do you say “I am this” in deep sleep?)

No, but I wake up and see or feel no other reality other then the world I was in before I went to deep sleep, like anesthetic affect I did not stop existing.

Re

(Chhandogya Upanishad

Chapter III — The Serene Self and Satya Brahman

3

"That Self abides in the heart. The etymological explanation of heart is this: This one (ayam) is in the heart (hridi); therefore It is called the heart (hridayam). He who knows this goes every day in deep sleep to. Brahman, dwelling in the heart

Chapter VI — The Course after Death for the Illumined

3

When a man is asleep, with the senses withdrawn and serene and sees no dream, then he has entered into these arteries. Then no evil touches him, for he has obtained the light of the sun.

Chapter VIII — Concerning Sleep, Hunger, Thirst, and Death

1

Uddalaka the son of Aruna said to his son Svetaketu: "Learn from me, my dear, the true nature of sleep. When a person has entered into deep sleep, as it is called, then, my dear, he becomes united with Pure Being (Sat), he has gone to his own Self. That is why they say he is in deep sleep (svapiti); it is because he has gone (apita) to his own (svam).)

Do you see any difference in the self and the Brahman?

Let me try and understand this, the self has no consciousness while in deep sleep, does not perceive things, but the super consciousness is always aware.

So do you see the difference?

Re

(Why do not the Devas fight Asuras all the time?)

Yes this is going on all the time, this is a constant battle that rages on within also.

Re

(Enquire “Who is maya bound?” and “Who has the desire?”

You are bound to find that it is not I that is maya bound or desirous. Since I is only a limiting notion in consciousness itself.)

If it is not I then who is maya bound and who desiring, how can I be limiting notion if I have no existence?

Re

(You may still ask the most difficult question: But why does consciousness limit itself?

Then I will ask you why does Agni Deva burn people? Why does Vayu deva cause destruction?)

Is limiting one self a natural function? like the agni to burn.

Re

(Lord Shiva instructs Vashista:

Cidasti hi Sartre ha sarvabhutamayatmika

Calonmukhatmikaika tu nirvikalpa para smrta

The omniscient consciousness which is all in all exists in this body both as the changing and as the unchanging and unmodified one.

Just as a woman dreams herself to be another with another as her husband in dream, the same consciousness assumes another aspect and functions differently. By stages, it assumes insentient and inert forms.

Consciousness thus becomes its own object and creates space, air, time etc within itself and becomes Jiva followed individualised finite intellect and mind. From this arises the world appearance and notions like “I am an untouchable” etc. )

Does this mean the supreme consciousness delude it self by it self and become jiva, at the same time omniscient one is always conscious, I don’t understand this.

How do you compare this to what Lord Krishna says in bg.

mamaivamso jiva-loke

jiva-bhutah sanatanah

manah-sasthanindriyani

prakrti-sthani karsati

Atma in the body is My eternal indivisible fragment indeed. Atma gets bound (or attached, and is called Jeevaatma) due to superimposition or association with the six sensory faculties, including the mind, of perception. (15.07)

Or

There was never a time when I, you, or these kings did not exist; nor shall we ever cease to exist in the future. (2.12)

or

The Lord abides in the heart of all beings, O Arjuna, causing all beings to act by His power of Maya as if they are mounted on a machine. (18.61)

So question still remain why the lord who is omniscient either deludes it self or allow his own eternal parts to be deluded?

Re

(This consciousness which is conditioned by self-limitation is afraid of itself.)

Yes the one who knows the self is never afraid but why would the self who knows the truth put a limitation on the self?

Re

(So, I feel that self limitation is inherent nature of consciousness like burning to ash is the nature of fire. But returning back to the highest state is also the nature of consciousness.)

In other word experience the dark side to come back to light.

Re

(Consciousness does not truly undergo any modification, nor does it become impure. The impurity itself is imaginary; imagination is the impurity. When this is realized the imagination is abandoned and impurity ceases. By self-effort this imagination can be easily rejected: if one can drop a piece of straw, one can with equal ease also drop the three worlds!)

So, Lord Shiva says that it is easy.

Well the whole creation is a mystery, at times it too much to contemplate we need his grace to unravel all this with his grace it truly is easy.

Jai Shree Krishna

November 14, 2004

***********Re

(The false sense of “I am this” during waking and dream states is the cause of duality and feeling of detachment. This resides in mind.)

Tell me what is not false? Whose mind?*****************************

The existence (of one Lord) as pure consciousness (“I”) is alone the absolute truth.

Rig Veda states that Indra-Manyu is the mysterious ancient mind of Rudra. It is born due to effect of slight movement of the consciousness.

*******************Re

(This false sense of “I am this” is not real but arises from a notion in consciousness.)

What ever arises must have some reality. **************************

Yes. But the reality is not as perceived through the senses. Rig Veda asks: “How bone less gives rise to the bony?”

I repeat the query: “How bone less gives rise to the bony?” And remember Lord is omnipresent, so not a single thing is outside him.

Since a mind arises in the consciousness, it is real but this mind is not independent of the base.

A gold bangle is simply a name of a form of the base material gold. But until we ponder deeply, we take the bangle as an independent thing. Just think about a gold bangle for a moment and you will realize that it is just a concept – a name.

***************Re

(Do you feel detached while in deep sleep? Do you know the mind in deep sleep? Do you say “I am this” in deep sleep?)

No, but I wake up and see or feel no other reality other then the world I was in before I went to deep sleep, like anesthetic affect I did not stop existing.**************************

Yes, that is the point. While in dream, do you know that the dream world is unreal? When life is over will one know that one had a palace? But when one is in deep sleep, the mind rests and we do not see duality.

Yes. No one stops existing in all the four states: waking, dreaming, sleeping, and Turiya. Existence is the one absolute truth that underlies all states.

No other religion has analysed the four states. Hinduism is unique. Upanishads are replete with examples of these four states.

Brahma Sutra delineates a difference between the dream and the waking states. The former is created by Jiva and the latter is by Lord.

****************** (Chhandogya Upanishad

Let me try and understand this, the self has no consciousness while in deep sleep, does not perceive things, but the super consciousness is always aware.

So do you see the difference?******************************

Yes, I am aware of the difference. In deep sleep the jiva is conditioned by nescience and tamas. Otherwise everyone would have attained salvation by sleeping.

This part is also explained in Chandogya. First Brahma told Indra that “deep sleep is Brahman”. Indra went away satisfied but came back dissatisfied.

Brahma then explained to Indra that it was first necessary for Jiva to know that during deep sleep he rests in Brahman but is not aware that he visited Brahman.

The next step is to still the mind in waking state to consciously attain the deep sleep state sans the tamas. Of course, this is not easy. Whatever, Lord Shiva may say.

********************Re

(Why do not the Devas fight Asuras all the time?)

Yes this is going on all the time, this is a constant battle that rages on within also.************

Yes. Actually whatever happens, happens within the consciousness only – whether that is happening within the physical body limits or outside.

Otherwise, definition of yogi in Gita: one who sees me in everyone and everyone in me, cannot be true

*******************Re

(Enquire “Who is maya bound?” and “Who has the desire?”

You are bound to find that it is not I that is maya bound or desirous. Since I is only a limiting notion in consciousness itself.)

If it is not I then who is maya bound and who desiring, how can I be limiting notion if I have no existence?*************************************

Exactly, the notion of conditioning is limiting – but it is a notion, since, Brahman cannot be partitioned.

Actually no one is Maya bound. This is the truth and this is the grace. Karma bondage is in mind, which is artefact of thoughts in consciousness. By enquiry mind dissolves into consciousness.

You have no real independent existence as Ganeshprasad – the body. “I” has the existence, but not limited in the body as it is perceived. The perceived existence with body as the main reality (for most) is Maya. That Maya is not real. It vanishes when the small I is searched.

When mind stills the truth is illuminated: “How bone less gives rise to the bony?”

Continuous nama japa or silent vicara of “Who am I?” are the two methods to still the mind. Continuous nama japa, leads to a state where one knows that the nature of japa (wave) and oneself are similar. “How bone less gives rise to the bony?”

I know it will be hard to digest that the nature of “nama” and “small self” are same. Do not try to digest it but churn it.

“How bone less gives rise to the bony?”

*************Re

(You may still ask the most difficult question: But why does consciousness limit itself?

Then I will ask you why does Agni Deva burn people? Why does Vayu deva cause destruction?)

Is limiting one self a natural function? like the agni to burn.****************

May be the example has not been the most appropriate one. What I meant was prakriti and not natural function. I meant only the “nature”.

The Gita verse (15.07) you have cited and Yoga Vashista as below answers this:

“Consciousness does not truly undergo any modification, nor does it become impure. The impurity itself is imaginary; imagination is the impurity. When this is realized the imagination is abandoned and impurity ceases. By self-effort this imagination can be easily rejected: if one can drop a piece of straw, one can with equal ease also drop the three worlds”

What Yoga Vashista says is that consciousness does not limit itself but imagines itself to be its own object. The conditioned CID is thinking that it is such and such body when actually it is pure consciousness -- devoid of conditioning. And “Consciousness does not truly undergo any modification, nor does it become impure”. It remains super conscious.

Rig Veda says” ADITI is the world, the heaven, the father, and the son and all that is”.

******************* (Lord Shiva instructs Vashista:

The omniscient consciousness which is all in all exists in this body both as the changing and as the unchanging and unmodified one.

----------Consciousness thus becomes its own object and creates space, air, time etc within itself and becomes Jiva followed individualised finite intellect and mind. From this arises the world appearance and notions like “I am an untouchable” etc.

Does this mean the supreme consciousness delude it self by it self and become jiva, at the same time omniscient one is always conscious, I don’t understand this.

How do you compare this to what Lord Krishna says in bg

Atma in the body is My eternal indivisible fragment indeed. Atma gets bound (or attached, and is called Jeevaatma) due to superimposition or association with the six sensory faculties, including the mind, of perception. (15.07)

Or

There was never a time when I, you, or these kings did not exist; nor shall we ever cease to exist in the future. (2.12)

or

The Lord abides in the heart of all beings, O Arjuna, causing all beings to act by His power of Maya as if they are mounted on a machine. (18.61)

So question still remain why the lord who is omniscient either deludes it self or allow his own eternal parts to be deluded?***********************************

As discussed above, the omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent consciousness does not delude but exists without any modification. But due to its inherent prakriti, nounemenon and phenomenon appear – apparently.

The truth is that the nounemenon and phenomenon are not two things but Brahman alone.

*****************Re

(This consciousness which is conditioned by self-limitation is afraid of itself.)

Yes the one who knows the self is never afraid but why would the self who knows the truth put a limitation on the self?*************************************

No, the Self does not put a limitation. It just exists with its Prakriti. Conditioning in the phenomenon causes ills. But sages and Lord himself tells us that there is nothing to fear if jiva gives up doership.

***********Re

(So, I feel that self limitation is inherent nature of consciousness like burning to ash is the nature of fire. But returning back to the highest state is also the nature of consciousness.)

In other word experience the dark side to come back to light.******************

May be true partly as we try to explain unexplainable. But scriptures do not reveal this intention of Brahman. On the contrary, Yoga Vashista states the following:

It is mind’s nature to search for cause and effect relationship. But actually it is Kaktaliya. A crow sits on a coconut tree and a coconut falls and mind ascribes cause and effect.

Yoga Vashistha also states that the concepts of oneness and diversity are just concepts. Brahman exists as nounemenon and phenomenon eternally as such. Phenomenon has diversity but anything cannot exist outside of Lord. So this Universe is nothing but one Brahman.

********************Re

(Consciousness does not truly undergo any modification, nor does it become impure. The impurity itself is imaginary; imagination is the impurity. When this is realized the imagination is abandoned and impurity ceases. By self-effort this imagination can be easily rejected: if one can drop a piece of straw, one can with equal ease also drop the three worlds!)

So, Lord Shiva says that it is easy.

Well the whole creation is a mystery, at times it too much to contemplate we need his grace to unravel all this with his grace it truly is easy**************************

There is no creation. Everything exists eternally (but not as we see things as solid objects). This is what yoga Vashista says. This is difficult to appreciate.

In Brahman’s mind the phenomenon appears and in it the phenomenon is absorbed to reappear again. But nothing is created in the sense of something new appearing.

“How bone less gives rise to the bony?”

”ADITI is the earth, the heaven, the father, and the son and all that is”.

Ganeshprasad · November 17, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Re

(The existence (of one Lord) as pure consciousness (“I”) is alone the absolute truth.)

Who perceives this truth?

Re

(Rig Veda states that Indra-Manyu is the mysterious ancient mind of Rudra. It is born due to effect of slight movement of the consciousness.)

What caused the movement?

re

(Yes. But the reality is not as perceived through the senses.)

Senses are not perfact absolute truth is beyond the sense persaption so how does one know the truth?

Re

(I repeat the query: “How bone less gives rise to the bony?” And remember Lord is omnipresent, so not a single thing is outside him.)

I agree nothing can exist out side of lord, and since nothing is created the answer must be within.

Re

(Since a mind arises in the consciousness, it is real but this mind is not independent of the base. )

Nothing can be independent of the base but here is a real dilemma, at least for me without the independence, the individual life has no meaning it would be simply a robotic existence.

Re

(A gold bangle is simply a name of a form of the base material gold. But until we ponder deeply, we take the bangle as an independent thing. Just think about a gold bangle for a moment and you will realize that it is just a concept – a name.)

True there is no difference in the property but the transformation is real even for this inert material. Life force is a separate issue even though from the same force and dependent on it, yet independent to experience pain and pleasure.

Re

(Yes, that is the point. While in dream, do you know that the dream world is unreal? When life is over will one know that one had a palace? But when one is in deep sleep, the mind rests and we do not see duality.)

Material world is also like a dream world ie temporary therefore we can never be happy.

Although we do not see duality in deep sleep, as you say the mind is at rest, so after the rest the comes the waking.

Re

(Brahma Sutra delineates a difference between the dream and the waking states. The former is created by Jiva and the latter is by Lord. )

Both is conscious the jiva who is part of the lord is leaving in dream world of material existence experiencing nightmare as well as pleasure while the lord is always awake full of bliss.

Re

(Yes, I am aware of the difference. In deep sleep the jiva is conditioned by nescience and tamas. Otherwise everyone would have attained salvation by sleeping.)

And what is this conditioning?

Re

(This part is also explained in Chandogya. First Brahma told Indra that “deep sleep is Brahman”. Indra went away satisfied but came back dissatisfied.

Brahma then explained to Indra that it was first necessary for Jiva to know that during deep sleep he rests in Brahman but is not aware that he visited Brahman.

The next step is to still the mind in waking state to consciously attain the deep sleep state sans the tamas. Of course, this is not easy. Whatever, Lord Shiva may say.)

This we have to do nothing is easy, but just as father encourages the child so does the lord.

Re

(Exactly, the notion of conditioning is limiting – but it is a notion, since, Brahman cannot be partitioned.)

Whose conditioning is it? Brahman can not be partitioned at the same tome it can not in ignorance either.

Re

(Actually no one is Maya bound. This is the truth and this is the grace. Karma bondage is in mind, which is artefact of thoughts in consciousness. By enquiry mind dissolves into consciousness. )

Why would Krishna say

thisdaivi hy esa guna-mayi

mama maya duratyaya

mam eva ye prapadyante

mayam etam taranti te

My divine Maya consisting of three Gunas or states of mind is difficult to overcome. Only they who surrender unto Me cross over this Maya. (7.14)

Re

(You have no real independent existence as Ganeshprasad – the body. “I” has the existence, but not limited in the body as it is perceived. The perceived existence with body as the main reality (for most) is Maya. That Maya is not real. It vanishes when the small I is searched.)

Who is this consciousness that perceive this body as the self remember the Brahman can not be partitioned.

Re

(When mind stills the truth is illuminated: “How bone less gives rise to the bony?”Continuous nama japa or silent vicara of “Who am I?” are the two methods to still the mind. Continuous nama japa, leads to a state where one knows that the nature of japa (wave) and oneself are similar. “How bone less gives rise to the bony?”

I know it will be hard to digest that the nature of “nama” and “small self” are same. Do not try to digest it but churn it.

“How bone less gives rise to the bony?”)

The process you mention, to churn, here all argument disappear at least for me.

Re

(May be the example has not been the most appropriate one. What I meant was prakriti and not natural function. I meant only the “nature”.)

this make sense.

Re

( “Consciousness does not truly undergo any modification, nor does it become impure. The impurity itself is imaginary; imagination is the impurity. When this is realized the imagination is abandoned and impurity ceases. By self-effort this imagination can be easily rejected: if one can drop a piece of straw, one can with equal ease also drop the three worlds”)

This apparent impurity arises from coming in contact with prakriti.

Re

(What Yoga Vashista says is that consciousness does not limit itself but imagines itself to be its own object. The conditioned CID is thinking that it is such and such body when actually it is pure consciousness -- devoid of conditioning. And “Consciousness does not truly undergo any modification, nor does it become impure”. It remains super conscious.)

Re

(As discussed above, the omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent consciousness does not delude but exists without any modification. But due to its inherent prakriti, nounemenon and phenomenon appear – apparently.)

Apparent phenomenon and the seer are two different thing.

Re

(The truth is that the nounemenon and phenomenon are not two things but Brahman alone.)

There is nothing outside of Brahman, but within there is variety that is the real experience how can you negate that?

Re

(No, the Self does not put a limitation. It just exists with its Prakriti. Conditioning in the phenomenon causes ills. But sages and Lord himself tells us that there is nothing to fear if jiva gives up doership.)

This also true, the Lord says,

Those who perceive that all works are done by the (Gunas of) Prakriti alone, and thus they are not the doer, they truly understand. (See also 3.27, 5.09, and 14.19) (13.29)

Re

(Yoga Vashistha also states that the concepts of oneness and diversity are just concepts. Brahman exists as nounemenon and phenomenon eternally as such. Phenomenon has diversity but anything cannot exist outside of Lord. So this Universe is nothing but one Brahman.)

But the variety within this one Brahman is fact for all to see. Concept will remain a concept until realized.

Re

(There is no creation. Everything exists eternally (but not as we see things as solid objects). This is what yoga Vashista says. This is difficult to appreciate.)

Transformation is apparent for us all to see but just as lord say having once been you never cease to be.

Re

(In Brahman’s mind the phenomenon appears and in it the phenomenon is absorbed to reappear again. But nothing is created in the sense of something new appearing.

“How bone less gives rise to the bony?”

”ADITI is the earth, the heaven, the father, and the son and all that is”.)

So this is all the play of brahman’s mind?

Jai Shree Krishna

November 20, 2004

Ganeshprasad Ji,

Due to certain work I am not being able to participate fully. I will resume as soon as Lord wishes.

But for the time being I request you to consider the followings.

***************** Nothing can be independent of the base but here is a real dilemma, at least for me without the independence, the individual life has no meaning it would be simply a robotic existence.**************************

************************ Re

(A gold bangle is simply a name of a form of the base material gold. But until we ponder deeply, we take the bangle as an independent thing. Just think about a gold bangle for a moment and you will realize that it is just a concept – a name.)

True there is no difference in the property but the transformation is real even for this inert material. Life force is a separate issue even though from the same force and dependent on it, yet independent to experience pain and pleasure.***************************

Just imagine an amount of Gold as omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent God. There is nothing else and being omniscient It is all intelligent and being omnipotent It can do anything.

There being no Sun, there is no time and no space as well.

It has a continuous feeling “I am”. But It wants to know “What I am?”. So, It first assumes itself to be Brahman.

Imagine the Brahman to be an idea of a Gold bangle – the Sun. Now just being a modification of infinite intelligence, this Gold Bangle has intelligence. At this stage it is not deluded yet. Brahman gathers a body called Virat (the shape of the Bangle). Even at this stage the bangle knows that It is the origin.

Next the Gold bangle being intelligent and powerful – starts creating new shapes. The new shapes also are intelligent since the consciousness pervades.

The new shape, say a gold ring has intelligence since it is nothing but IT with a feeing that I am of this shape and this name.

The shape then says “I am a ring”. It can say so because it is intelligent. Actually it should say “I am a shape made in Gold and Gold is the source of my consciousness”.

Similarly, if Atanu says: “I am a limited and conditioned form of the unlimited consciousness and this form is temporary and not real vis-à-vis the consciousness”, then the delusion will be over.

Surprising, how even after studying Gita many still do not perceive that individuality is now there and gone tomorrow.

*********************** There is nothing outside of Brahman, but within there is variety that is the real experience how can you negate that?***********************

********************* Transformation is apparent for us all to see but just as lord say having once been you never cease to be.*********************

True, Lord says that You, me, all kings have existed eternally, But how? As Arjuna the man or as Dhritarashtra the man? No. All obviously exist as Spirit.

Now whether the spirit will have individuality or not will depend on the Self effort to uncover the delusion and grant of appropriate reward by the Lord.

Now also remember that the Lord has said that “know that I am the only doer” (actually my prakriti). So, if individuality is maintained then how will one ever realize that Lord is the doer?

Ganeshprasad · November 20, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Re

(Due to certain work I am not being able to participate fully. I will resume as soon as Lord wishes.)

No problem, may gauri putra Ganesh help you accomplish your work unhindered.

Re

(Just imagine an amount of Gold as omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent God. There is nothing else and being omniscient It is all intelligent and being omnipotent It can do anything.

There being no Sun, there is no time and no space as well.

It has a continuous feeling “I am”. But It wants to know “What I am?”. So, It first assumes itself to be Brahman.)

Please tell me how can omniscient not know what the self I is?

Re

(Imagine the Brahman to be an idea of a Gold bangle – the Sun. Now just being a modification of infinite intelligence, this Gold Bangle has intelligence. At this stage it is not deluded yet. Brahman gathers a body called Virat (the shape of the Bangle). Even at this stage the bangle knows that It is the origin.

Next the Gold bangle being intelligent and powerful – starts creating new shapes. The new shapes also are intelligent since the consciousness pervades.

The new shape, say a gold ring has intelligence since it is nothing but IT with a feeing that I am of this shape and this name.

The shape then says “I am a ring”. It can say so because it is intelligent. Actually it should say “I am a shape made in Gold and Gold is the source of my consciousness”.

Similarly, if Atanu says: “I am a limited and conditioned form of the unlimited consciousness and this form is temporary and not real vis-à-vis the consciousness”, then the delusion will be over.)

Sure, why create new shape and then become deluded?

Bg4.5 The Blessed Lord said: Many, many births both you and I have passed. I can remember all of them, but you cannot, O subduer of the enemy!

Here there is a clear distinction, Brahman knows all, does not get illusioned but the individual jivas does.

Re

(Surprising, how even after studying Gita many still do not perceive that individuality is now there and gone tomorrow.)

Only to return again and again until the self is realized.

Re

(True, Lord says that You, me, all kings have existed eternally, But how? As Arjuna the man or as Dhritarashtra the man? No. All obviously exist as Spirit.

Now whether the spirit will have individuality or not will depend on the Self effort to uncover the delusion and grant of appropriate reward by the Lord.)

We simply have to be sincere to receive his grace.

Re

(Now also remember that the Lord has said that “know that I am the only doer” (actually my prakriti). So, if individuality is maintained then how will one ever realize that Lord is the doer?)

I ask you if there is no individuality what is there to be realized?

Jai Shree Krishna

November 21, 2004

*****************Apparent phenomenon and the seer are two different thing.**************

It is surprising how answers come up. I read the following just after reading your question:

Devotee: “If it is said that Ananda is the Self itself, then who is it that experiencies it?”

Guru: “That is the point. So long as there is one who experiences, it shall have to be stated that Ananda is the Self itself. When there is is no one to experience , where there is the question of a form of Ananda? It is only that which ‘IS’ remains. That IS is ‘Ananda’. That is the Self. So long as the feeling that the Self is different from oneself there will be one who enquires and experiences, but when one realizes the SEl;f there will be no one to experience. Who is there to ask? What is there to say? In common parlance, however, we shall have to say that Bliss is the Self or is our real nature (Swarupa)”.

************Please tell me how can omniscient not know what the self I is?

Answer will come. But at the moment I can say that air will not know itself if not for its movement.

***********Sure, why create new shape and then become deluded?*****************

It is Mind that creates and gets deluded. The Self is never deluded. And the effort is to force the mind subside and see the Self shine. The self is shining eternally and the mind sitting on the Self has covered it up.

************Bg4.5 The Blessed Lord said: Many, many births both you and I have passed. I can remember all of them, but you cannot, O subduer of the enemy!

Here there is a clear distinction, Brahman knows all, does not get illusioned but the individual jivas does.**********************

Yes, there is clear distinction. Not only here. In Upanishads, mention is made of two birds (souls) within. One bird enjoys joy and pain and is never at rest and another bird is the Bliss itself.

Now does this Upanishad say that this is the goal. No.

In the first stage Jiva knows only of one bird I – the ‘body-mind’. Then scriptures teach jiva that there are two things – Purusha and Prakriti (Shiva –Parvati). And then scriptures also teach that one who controls Prakriti by the Purusha becomes THAT.

BRIHADARANYAKA-UPANISHAD Part 1

FOURTH BRAHMANA.

1. In the beginning this was Self alone, in the shape of a person (purusha). He looking round saw nothing but his Self. He first said, 'This is I;' therefore he became I by name. Therefore even now, if a man is asked, he first says, 'This is I,' and then pronounces the other name which he may have. And because before (purva) all this, he (the Self) burnt down (ush) all evils, therefore he was a person (pur-usha). Verily he who knows this, burns down every one who tries to be before him.

-----

7. Now all this was then undeveloped. It became developed by form and name, so that one could say, 'He, called so and so, is such a one. ' Therefore at present also all this is developed by name and form, so that one can say,'He, called so and so, is such a one.'

---------

10. Verily in the beginning this was Brahman, that Brahman knew (its) Self only, saying, 'I am Brahman.' From it all this sprang. Thus, whatever Deva was awakened (so as to know Brahman), he indeed became that (Brahman); and the same with Rishis and men. The Rishi Vamadeva saw and understood it, singing, 'I was Manu (moon), I was the sun.'

Therefore now also he who thus knows that he is Brahman, becomes all this, and even the Devas cannot prevent it, for he himself is their Self.

Now if a man worships another deity, thinking the deity is one and he another, he does not know. He is like a beast for the Devas. For verily, as many beasts nourish a man, thus does every man nourish the Devas. If only one beast is taken away, it is not pleasant; how much more when many are taken! Therefore it is not pleasant to the Devas that men should know this.

End of citation

Br. Up. , part II

IV-v-7: The Brahmana ousts (slights) one who knows him as different from the Self. The Kshatriya ousts one who knows him as different from the Self. Worlds oust one who knows them as different from the Self. The gods oust one who knows them as different from the Self. The Vedas oust one who knows them as different from the Self. Beings oust one who knows them as different from the Self. All ousts one who knows it as different from the Self. This Brahmana, this Kshatriya, these worlds, these gods, these Vedas, these beings and these all -- are this Self.

Now. Ganeshprasad ji I request you to enlighten me.

"Who is Maya bound?"

Ganeshprasad · November 21, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Who is maya bound

This is simple to answer, the jivas coming in contact with prakriti( whose nature is for ever changing) are maya bound.

Question is why. You have given very nice answers, they all make sense but does not completely satisfy the self. On one hand the lord is all, nothing can exist outside of him, yet he can not be maya bound, on the other hand we have jivas who are maya bound. If I follow your line of thought I end up thinking i have no real existence, but the upadhi of the mind. If I follow duality I ask why leave bliss and choose to be in illusion.

So let us keep churning initially poison will flow for that we need Lord Shiva’s(who controls the prakriti) help next the nectar will follow.

Re

( Now. Ganeshprasad ji I request you to enlighten me.

"Who is Maya bound?" )

for this you will have to ask maya pati.

Jai Shree Krishna

November 23, 2004

***********You have given very nice answers, they all make sense but does not completely satisfy the self. ******************

Yes, nothing short of the experience of Self can satisfy the self. That is the beginning of spiritual journey. Isn’t it?

Fame, money, love of another, arguments, discussion, science, words --- nothing satisfies self. Words and reasoning cannot reach THAT.

*******************On one hand the lord is all, nothing can exist outside of him, yet he can not be maya bound. On the other hand we have jivas who are maya bound. If I follow your line of thought I end up thinking i have no real existence, but the upadhi of the mind.************

Yes, nothing can exist outside IT. But those things that you are talking about being apparently outside are the phenomenon and not the subject itself.

Like, air. When air moves, it makes beautiful music or a mantra or noise. But mantra is effect of movement and a concept of a form of air. It is not the air. With formation of a beautiful piece of music the air is not altered.

Similarly, I exist all the time truly as the unaltered subject but not as the phenomenon. It is just nature of mind (being intelligent but also being limited) to associate with phenomenon and not the subject. Also, the phenomenon sits on the subject. So, the subject is not seen with organs of the mind.

Jiva and the universe are the phenomenon which has as support the infinitely intelligent and un deluded Lord. Like a report written by me will not understand me but I will understand the report similarly how can the phenomenon understand the subject fully. But when consciousness and its movement are understood the limited consciousness that the mind is overcomes the limitation simply by rejecting the imagination of limitation.

Bhava-Bhavani has to bless.

It is truly not my line of thinking. It is what a Self realized Guru who remained in samadhi 100 % of the time teaches.

I exist but not as the body. I exist as pure consciousness, but not bound within the body. The body-mind is an effect like a song is an expression of air.

I do not exist as the phenomenon but as the subject.

***************** If I follow duality I ask why leave bliss and choose to be in illusion.**********

Without duality there would be no love for the Lord to start with. So, it is critically essential. But hatred, fear etc. that accompany duality will take jiva towards the goal. The sense of I (small i) will never allow one to love everyone equally as Lord stipulates.

******************So let us keep churning initially poison will flow for that we need Lord Shiva’s(who controls the prakriti) help next the nectar will follow.****************

Again from Yoga Vashishta, Shiva teaches Vashishta that immature minds worship form and obtain worthless fruits.

Lord says that consciousness is all. One grasps and perceives so-called other objects (outside so-called body limits) because consciousness is continuous and ONE. Else how can one perceive things outside the body? Nothing is outside the consciousness and nothing is outside you.

Lord says that worship that unbroken consciousness. That continuous consciousness is Lord Shiva. Its movement is Durga and effect is the universe with all devas down to a blade of grass.

When Durga touches Lord, movement stops and all else disappear leaving Bliss alone -- the bliss of existence.

Ganeshprasad · November 26, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Re

(Yes, nothing short of the experience of Self can satisfy the self. That is the beginning of spiritual journey. Isn’t it?)

Yes the inquiry in to the self is the beginning of the spiritual journey, dissatisfaction arises out of falsely identifying the self to be this body.

Re

(Fame, money, love of another, arguments, discussion, science, words --- nothing satisfies self.)

How can it? This are all temporary the soul is eternal.

Re

( Words and reasoning cannot reach THAT. )

only the sincere endeavor and with his grace one may reach.

Mandukya Upanishad says

Nantah-prajnam, na bahih prajnam, no'bhayatah- prajnam, na prajnanaghanam, na prajnam, na-aprajnam; adrishtam-avyavaharayam-agrahyam-alakshanam-acintyam avyapadesyam-ekatmapratyayasaram, prapancopasarnam, santam, sivam-advaitam, caturtham manyante, sa atma sa vijneyah.

He is not knowable by perception, turned inward or out ward,nor by both combined. He is neither that which is known, nor that which is not known nor is he the sum of all that might be known he can not be seen, grasped, bargained with. He is undefinable, unthinkable, indescribable. The only proof of his existence is union with him. The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second. This is the fourth condition of the self the most worthy of all.

Re

(Yes, nothing can exist outside IT. But those things that you are talking about being apparently outside are the phenomenon and not the subject itself.

Like, air. When air moves, it makes beautiful music or a mantra or noise. But mantra is effect of movement and a concept of a form of air. It is not the air. With formation of a beautiful piece of music the air is not altered.)

This is the point the supreme consciousness, unaltered like air, is always concisions yet the jivas are also conscious of them self, I do not know what atanu is thinking or the next person this is my limitation but the lord knows all. Just like mantra is not air the effect jivas are not the cause and yet both exist.

Re

(Similarly, I exist all the time truly as the unaltered subject but not as the phenomenon. It is just nature of mind (being intelligent but also being limited) to associate with phenomenon and not the subject. Also, the phenomenon sits on the subject. So, the subject is not seen with organs of the mind.)

Ofcourse the lord exist unaltered all the time so does the phenomenon, for having once been you never cease to be.

Re

(Jiva and the universe are the phenomenon which has as support the infinitely intelligent and un deluded Lord. Like a report written by me will not understand me but I will understand the report similarly how can the phenomenon understand the subject fully.)

I agree.

Re

(But when consciousness and its movement are understood the limited consciousness that the mind is overcomes the limitation simply by rejecting the imagination of limitation.)

so that which is trying to understand even if it is imagination of limited consciousness has to exist or else what need is there to understand?

Re

(Bhava-Bhavani has to bless. )

Yes

Re

(It is truly not my line of thinking. It is what a Self realized Guru who remained in samadhi 100 % of the time teaches. )

What is your line of thinking?

Re

(I exist but not as the body. I exist as pure consciousness, but not bound within the body. The body-mind is an effect like a song is an expression of air.)

This body and mind are born out of desires, you will find this pure consciousness is so tengaled up in this body,senses and mind that it actually thinks it is this and thus all the problems. You may ask how can this pure consciousness be deluded by something that is is temporary, I have no answer except just as the magnet apparently looses its strength by being covered by cloth or a diamond its light if it is covered so is the self.

Re

(I do not exist as the phenomenon but as the subject. )

All I know is I exist and I am not the subject now, therefore no possiblity to become one.

Re

(Again from Yoga Vashishta, Shiva teaches Vashishta that immature minds worship form and obtain worthless fruits.)

We are not aspiring to worship devas to obtain worldly goods.

Re

(Lord says that consciousness is all. One grasps and perceives so-called other objects (outside so-called body limits) because consciousness is continuous and ONE. Else how can one perceive things outside the body? Nothing is outside the consciousness and nothing is outside you.

Nothing is outside of the consciousness but if there is nothing to perceive within what is the consciousness conscious off?

Re

(Lord says that worship that unbroken consciousness. That continuous consciousness is Lord Shiva. Its movement is Durga and effect is the universe with all devas down to a blade of grass.)

Since every thing is eternal the cause and effect coexist and the effect is chasing the cause its resting place.

Re

(When Durga touches Lord, movement stops and all else disappear leaving Bliss alone -- the bliss of existence.)

You have to be conscious to experience the bliss.

Jai Shree Krishna

November 27, 2004

Jai Ganesh

******************Yes the inquiry in to the self is the beginning of the spiritual journey, dissatisfaction arises out of falsely identifying the self to be this body. *****************

Yes, enquiry into the Self is the beginning. My Guru also teaches that enquire “Who is enquiring?”

************************(Fame, money, love of another, arguments, discussion, science, words --- nothing satisfies self.)

How can it? This are all temporary the soul is eternal.******************************

Enquire: “where is the atma (soul)?” “What is atma?” or “wherefrom the atma comes?” I mention here that atma is I.

**********************

Mandukya Upanishad says

Nantah-prajnam, na bahih prajnam, no'bhayatah- prajnam, na prajnanaghanam, na prajnam, na-aprajnam; adrishtam-avyavaharayam-agrahyam-alakshanam-acintyam avyapadesyam-ekatmapratyayasaram, prapancopasarnam, santam, sivam-advaitam, caturtham manyante, sa atma sa vijneyah.

He is not knowable by perception, turned inward or out ward,nor by both combined. He is neither that which is known, nor that which is not known nor is he the sum of all that might be known he can not be seen, grasped, bargained with. He is undefinable, unthinkable, indescribable. The only proof of his existence is union with him. The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second. This is the fourth condition of the self the most worthy of all.

*********************************

This is the ultimate knowledge you have cited.

‘The only proof of his existence is union with him.’

What remains after union with HIM? Does Jiva unite with Brahman as sugar with sand or as sugar in water?

‘world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second. This is the fourth condition of the self the most worthy of all. ‘

This brings tears to my eyes. This answers the above question. When He is ‘ONE without a SECOND’, then union with HIM cannot sustain a SECOND atma.

The phenomenon disappears in HIM. Durga, the one phenomenon unites with Lord and only the Bliss exists. Merging cannot be like sugar and sand.

********************(Yes, nothing can exist outside IT. But those things that you are talking about being apparently outside are the phenomenon and not the subject itself.

Like, air. When air moves, it makes beautiful music or a mantra or noise. But mantra is effect of movement and a concept of a form of air. It is not the air. With formation of a beautiful piece of music the air is not altered.)

This is the point the supreme consciousness, unaltered like air, is always concisions yet the jivas are also conscious of them self, I do not know what atanu is thinking or the next person this is my limitation but the lord knows all. Just like mantra is not air the effect jivas are not the cause and yet both exist.*******************************

I differ here. Or rather perspective of my Guru differs. I intuitively believe the perspective of my Guru since nothing else satisfies.

You say: “Just like mantra is not air the effect jivas are not the cause and yet both exist”. But I say that mantra exists as a form of air. Otherwise the mantra has no independent existence.

The Jivas are conscious because they are consciousness alone. But jives are other since there is program written by Lord to make it so. The limited consciousness that Jivas are, are not outside the pure consciousness.

From small experiences I have had, I can state the followings.

The bliss is within. This state is perceived when senses do not see objects. Or when the Self takes over, and lets the consciousness (that is me) know that a sound appearing to be outside my body is within the consciousness that I am.

Such are small blissful states of which I have experience of. But, the desires in memory (mind) and duties (on account of those memories) bring me out.

There is a state called Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi attained by the highest sages who while appearing to fulfil their karma remain in the Self.

This state is not different from “renouncing all doership”.

My Guru states that “I” is the foremost name of the Lord. One who abides continuously in “I”, knowing “I” to be the Self and not the body attain Sahaja Nirvikalpa -- the fourth state.

Abiding in “I” means, first identifying (through meditation) the atma sphurana – the fountain head of “I”.

**************Of course the lord exist unaltered all the time so does the phenomenon, for having once been you never cease to be.*********************

But Upanishads say that “world disappears in him”? Phenomenon has a disappearance from time to time when Shiva desires to dissolve.

After dissolution, all including the Devas, remain in Lord as nescience (memory), but not as reality apart from the ONE LORD. Lord Vishnu also sleeps on Sheshnag, which is residual nescience.

Sheshnag has no end but still it is nescience. It is a memory and observer of Lord’s dance of dissolution.

********************Re

(It is truly not my line of thinking. It is what a Self realized Guru who remained in samadhi 100 % of the time teaches. )

What is your line of thinking?*******************************

I try not to think but I try to meditate on statements. This brings out flashes of intuition. I intuitively feel most comfortable with Maharshi Ramana’s teachings that:

The Self itself is Bliss and it is always there. It does not arrive from some place. You cannot expect it be outside your own consciousness and also you cannot expect it to arrive from somewhere at sometime. Know that it is your consciousness (when devoid of imaginations of quality) itself is bliss.

Sometimes, you will have a feeling of bliss on waking up; soon to be replaced by thoughts “I have to do this or that”. This bliss is a faint memory of the bliss of association with Brahman in deep sleep. The sense of small I obstructs the permanence of the bliss.

Self effort is required to know the Self.

Fate and destiny pertain to the karma affected mind-body “I” and not the real Self – “I”.

There is no free will till one does not know the “I”. Till then Niyati controls.

Only free will available to small i is the choice “whether to endeavor to know the Self (the subject) or to enjoy the objects (phenomena). It is a free choice.

Absolute renunciation of the sense of doership is the final emancipation and the final goal.

That above is not possible till desires and sankalpas remain.

Desires and sankalpa do not leave a jiva until the knowledge of “I” is not attained.

The knowledge of “I” is attained on continuous absorption of mind in nama japa or “I” itself.

Without giving up the body-mind I, nothing can be attained that is of eternal nature. And what is not eternal is not bliss.

Questions on dvaita, vishishta advaita, or advaita are conjectures alone since mind is involved. The only truth is that there is one Lord. Depending on the severity of the conditioning, dvaita, vishita advaita, all paths are good.

****************Re

(I exist but not as the body. I exist as pure consciousness, but not bound within the body. The body-mind is an effect like a song is an expression of air.)

This body and mind are born out of desires, ------- You may ask how can this pure consciousness be deluded by something that is is temporary, I have no answer except just as the magnet apparently looses its strength by being covered by cloth or a diamond its light if it is covered so is the self. ***************

Yes. On this my Guru says that the question “whose is the primordial Karma?” is a forbidden question. Instead just enquire “who am I?”

*************Re

(I do not exist as the phenomenon but as the subject. )

All I know is I exist and I am not the subject now, therefore no possiblity to become one.********

Yes. You or anyone for that matter has no possibility of becoming the subject since there is no question of “becoming”.

When you “become” you are not eternal. That is not the truth. The truth is that there is no second consciousness.

Because of a dense covering of desire the pure light is veiled. But the light is there already. It is supporting your intellect.

Do not you see the light during meditation?

The truth is that all phenomenons are facet of unlimited glory of Lord. That is why Shri Rudram is an essential read and meditation.

The chief of Gods is HIM and the chief of thieves is also HIM. How can anything be outside?

The river water is HIM and the fire is also HIM. How can anything be outside?

The illnesses that strike, through food, is HIM and the medicine tendered is HIM. How can anything be outside?

The auspicious is HIM. The terrible is HIM. The defeated is HIM. The victor is HIM.

He is the shining soul of all (Yajur Veda). So, if He is the soul then what is Atanu’s soul?

******************Re

(Again from Yoga Vashishta, Shiva teaches Vashishta that immature minds worship form and obtain worthless fruits.)

We are not aspiring to worship devas to obtain worldly goods.******************

Then what you are aspiring for?

Whatever consciousness wishes that materializes. That is the omnipotent power of consciousness. That is how the Universe appears in consciousness.

The solution is to just exist 'as one is' without any sankalpa whatsoever, knowing that the Universe is Brahman.

But being without sankalpa is the most difficult part.

There are stories replete in Puranas that Lord fulfills wishes but surprisingly always with conditions. As far as I understand, probably Lord readily grants wishes for enjoyments of objects as different from HIM. But the karma (bad or good) accompanies.

****************

Nothing is outside of the consciousness but if there is nothing to perceive within what is the consciousness conscious off?***********************

************ so that which is trying to understand even if it is imagination of limited consciousness has to exist or else what need is there to understand? ******************************

I have clubbed together above two points, since both are similar.

I saw the answer given by my Guru to a similar question and I had posted it earlier. I will repeat the same.

Devotee: “If it is said that Ananda is the Self itself, then who is it that experiencies it?”

Guru: “That is the point. So long as there is one who experiences, it shall have to be stated that Ananda is the Self itself. When there is no one to experience, where there is the question of a form of Ananda? It is only that which ‘IS’ remains. That ‘IS’ is ‘Ananda’. That is the Self. So long as the feeling that the Self is different from oneself there will be one who enquires and experiences, but when one realizes the Self there will be no one to experience. Who is there to ask? What is there to say? In common parlance, however, we shall have to say that Bliss is the Self or is our real nature (Swarupa)”.

So, Atanu can only say that this question will ever remain unanswered till one realizes the Self.

Till one realizes the Self there is always the other.

******************Re

(Lord says that worship that unbroken consciousness. That continuous consciousness is Lord Shiva. Its movement is Durga and effect is the universe with all devas down to a blade of grass.)

Since every thing is eternal the cause and effect coexist and the effect is chasing the cause its resting place.********************************

Here again I beg to differ although such differences do not hold water since all arguments are of mind.

Sage Vashishta repeatedly -- through duration of a month or more--- taught Lord Rama that there is no cause and effect in the sense of cause giving rise to effect which is different from the cause. Without realizing this there is no chance of salvation. Cause and effects are the reasoning of the mind which by nature is limited -- though intelligent (through intelligence of consciousness). The delusion is that the mind is independently intelligent. The truth is that (as per the sage) that mind/s has/have no real existence apart from the pure consciousness. All reasoning of cause and effect are in the mind.

On the same line, Varuna taught Bhrigu that a one pointed mind alone is Brahman. A mind devoid of thoughts is Brahman.

Initially the reflected consciousness that we are, feel a fear that a mind devoid of thought is useless. But even in a mundane way that is not the case.

Best of literature, science – say for example writings of Upanishads, happen super consciously when mind is silent.

Even best quality sarees in India come from places like Varanasi or Kanchipuram.

Even rational thoughts begin through intuitive flashes. The western philosophy has placed great importance on rationality but it is misplaced. Great scientists, philosophers and artists know and proclaim that without intuition they cannot produce anything.

Present day quantum scientists, as per me, are the greatest karma yogis. Many of them proclaim that consciousness is one without partition. The uncertainty principle itself has enshrined the fact that mind or its instruments can never arrive at the ultimate truth.

Quantum physics also knows that out of so called vacuum quarks of opposite polarity appear, exist and vanish.

And there is an intuitive feeling that the so called vacuum, out of which the quarks appear and again vanish, is the supremely intelligent consciousness itself. Eminent scientists also proclaim that Shiva’s dance depicts the supreme truth that nothing exists eternally except Shiva -- or whatever name one wishes to give That.

I am not trying to pull support from science since science itself knows that it cannot know the truth. But shruti that you have cited and many other shrutis state that all small “I”’s are the state of flux and not eternal. Only the big I – the Self is eternal.

Know your soul as the consciousness temporarily limited with upadhis and slowly you will become consciousness -- even being in the body. I agree that what I say has not been fully experienced and established in me, but churning of these material will certainly be beneficial – for Ganesh Ji and for Atanu.

Rational mind can never surpass the super conscious mind that obtains inputs directly from the Lord.

I give one example of delusion below.

If you are knowledgeable about programming then you will know that it is easy to write instructions that alter key strokes or makes things happen on some key stroke. For example, I can write a code which converts “a” keystroke on a key board to “b” on the screen.

Now, just imagine how easy it is for Lord to install such a program in mind to keep HIM forever pure -- so that desires are fulfilled at the level of mind (software) and not in the hardware. One sees a bag of . and urine and one gets aroused and loses all sense. The sexual desire is the primordial and the toughest to get over. Then for defense of a belief one is ready to kill and so forth.

No end to delusions if your soul (I call it ahamkara or I sense attached to body-mind or some imaginary thing) does not know the real “I”. Soul is atma, the “I exist” sense. Now, whether bliss is possible with the sense of individual I is intact, that even a novice like me doubts.

I will explain it more. When the sense of individual atma remains then how can that atma see another atma (say an enemy) as Brahman? But the truth is that all is Brahman.

It is never possible. The ugly arguments among devotees seen here or elsewhere are the mildest of the results of staunchly believing in individual atma.

Upanishads first teach that one is not body-mind but an atma. But taking that as meaning eternal existence of infinite number of atmas is to ignore truth of other shrutis that proclaim oneness. To me this seems to be an obstacle – put in place by Ganesha himself – so that impure do not desecrate Brahman.

********He is not knowable by perception, turned inward or out ward nor by both combined. He is neither that which is known, nor that which is not known nor is he the sum of all that might be known he can not be seen, grasped, bargained with. He is undefinable, unthinkable, and indescribable. The only proof of his existence is union with him. The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second. This is the fourth condition of the self the most worthy of all.*******************

The only proof of his existence is union with him.

Jai Bhole please bless us. You drink poison for the sake of immortality of Devas. Cannot you bless us also? What is impossible for you?

Ganeshprasad Ji, Devas are eternal because Lord drinks the poison -- otherwise not.

Jai Bhole.

maadhav · November 27, 2004

<< Ganeshprasad Ji, Devas are eternal because Lord drinks the poison -- otherwise not. >>

i would not enter too deep into this debate,

but would share what the scriptures say.

if devas were eternal, then there was no ned for shiva to drink the poison. shiva just saved teh devas and others from death by drinking teh poison. still he did not let teh poison go to the stomach, je just stored itn inhis throat.

conaseuqnty his throat became blue and he therefore is also known as nilakantha.

(a side point: the nuclearwaste is similar to that poison. no one want it, it has no good use, and no one wants to store it on their lands, and so far siva has not offered to consume it probably becaue teh waste producers have not requested him with faith.)

krishna says in gita: aham aadir hi devaanam.

thus devas came after krishna; meaning devas are not eternal. krishna also describes brahma's day, night, and life spans. so even brahma is not eternal, and each universe has a brahma, manus, etc.

so, our bodies or deva/devi's bodies are not eternal.

but our souls and deva/devi's souls are eternal.

this is clear from prabhupada's literature.

hope it hepls.

sarava deva namaskaara keshavam pratigachchhati.

Ganeshprasad · November 27, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Re

(This brings tears to my eyes. This answers the above question. When He is ‘ONE without a SECOND’, then union with HIM cannot sustain a SECOND atma.)

your tears are real for you search for that which is one without a second, in what form that union takes place only time will tell.

Re

(Questions on dvaita, vishishta advaita, or advaita are conjectures alone since mind is involved. The only truth is that there is one Lord. Depending on the severity of the conditioning, dvaita, vishita advaita, all paths are good.)

On this note i shall take a break, we will cotinue if you wish later in new year

Jai Bhole please bless us.

Jai Shree Krishna

November 28, 2004

I feel comfortable with what you say.

Only, as we had discussed long back, I have been told that the union is not like milk and curd but like river water meeting the ocean. And I intuitively feel OK with the latter view.

This difference does not matter, however. Attaining HIM is the main goal of all, barring none.

maadhav · November 28, 2004

<< Only, as we had discussed long back, I have been told that the union is not like milk and curd but like river water meeting the ocean. And I intuitively feel OK with the latter view. >>

yes, advaitis' view is that:

when a statue of salt goes to investigate an ocean,

it vanishes in the ocean without a trace.

to vaishnavs (bhaktas) this is a spiritual suicide.

a bhakta wants bhagavan to serve Him. without this separation, bhakti or loving exchange with bhagavan is not possible. for a bhakta, bhakti is the means and the end.

this is a very tricky and failproof method of using maya against maya to defeat maya and achieve bhagavan. gyan yogis, however do not prefer it, becaue they have a lot of brain power and the ego about it.

so krishna has said:

bahUnAm janmanAm ante

gyAnvAna mAm prpadyate

vAsudev saram iti

sa maAtma sudurlabha

it is very difficult to get bhagavn by gyan yoga, but still it is a valid path. when some one has a lot of brain power, he can do it, even though it takes a long time.

but i say we should not waste time in debating this - which is best or what is truth of these two paths. the real danger around is terrorism by the barbaric ideology. that needs our attention and concerted effort to get free from it in bharat.

would you join the effort please?

November 29, 2004

****He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.*******

I will love HIM as one without a second and then it is HIS will alone.

November 30, 2004

It is pleasant to converse with you. I will always wish to do so when you wish.

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