Ingersoll the great

[sampath]

The probability is that no God has cursed, and that no God will bless, this earth. Man suffers and enjoys according to conditions. The sun shines without love, and the lightning blasts without hate. Man is the providence of man. When a professor in a college finds a fact, he should make it known, even if it is inconsistent with something Moses said.

 

 

Science has nothing in common with religion. Facts and miracles never did, and never will agree. They are not in the least related. They are deadly foes. What has religion to do with facts? Nothing. Can there be Methodist mathematics, Catholic astronomy, Presbyterian geology, Baptist biology, or Episcopal botany? Why, then, should a sectarian college exist? Only that which somebody knows should be taught in our schools. We should not collect taxes to pay people for guessing. The common school is the bread of life for the people, and it should not be touched by the withering hand of superstition.

 

Imagine the Lord God with a bone in his hand with which to start a woman, trying to make up his mind whether to make a blonde or a brunette!

 

Why should a woman ask pardon of God for having been a mother? Why should that be considered a crime in Exodus, which is commanded as a duty in Genesis? Why should a mother be declared unclean? Why should giving birth to a daughter be regarded twice as criminal as giving birth to a son? Can we believe that such laws and ceremonies were made and instituted by a merciful and intelligent God? If there is anything in this poor world suggestive of, and standing for, all that is sweet, loving and pure, it is a mother holding in her thrilled and happy arms her prattling babe.

Nature works on that "sacred" day. The earth turns, the rivers run, the trees grow, buds burst into flower, and birds fill the air with song. Why should we look sad, and think about death, and hear about hell? Why should that day be filled with gloom instead of joy?

How long, O how long will mankind worship a book? How long will they grovel in the dust before the ignorant legends of the barbaric past? How long, O how long will they pursue phantoms in a darkness deeper than death?

 

 

How long, O how long will man listen to the threats of God, and shut his eyes to the splendid possibilities of Nature? How long, O how long will man remain the cringing slave of a false and cruel creed?

 

How touching when the learned and wise crawl back in cribs and ask to hear the rhymes and fables once again! How charming in these hard and scientific times to see old age in Superstition's lap, with eager lips upon her withered breast

According to the theologians, God prepared this globe expressly for the habitation of his loved children, and yet he filled the forests with ferocious beasts; placed serpents in every path; stuffed the world with earthquakes, and adorned its surface with mountains of flame.

 

Notwithstanding all this, we are told that the world is perfect; that it was created by a perfect being, and is therefore necessarily perfect. The next moment, these same persons will tell us that the world was cursed; covered with brambles, thistles and thorns, and that man was doomed to disease and death, simply because our poor, dear mother ate an apple contrary to the command of an arbitrary God.

 

And we are called upon to worship such a God; to get upon our knees and tell him that he is good, that he is merciful, that he is just, that he is love

 

 

 

 

[maadhav]

sampath bhai,

 

your heart is poetic (assuming you used your words), and you feel some pain and great dissatisfaction due to the current the human situation.

 

what was the golden age that was perfect in your view please?

 

which country was and/or is most perfect in your view please?

 

which culture is best for all the world please?

 

who is ingresoll pleae?

 

which book all shoud read to get wise please?

 

[sampath]

Golden age that was perfect in my view:

 

Age of chandra guptha.Megasthanis visited India then and said "I have never seen a people more civilized than Indians.They dont know lies,theft and crime.Even if a bar of gold lays unclaimed on street nobody touches it.People are happy and intelligent to the core"

 

Which country was the most perfect?

 

Magatha under Chandraguptha and Chanakya.

 

Which culture is best for all the world?

 

Indian.

 

Who is INgersoll please?

 

Greatest visionary of 19th century and philosopher.

 

Which book all should read to get wise please?

 

Thirukural-By Thiruvalluvar.

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(And we are called upon to worship such a God; to get upon our knees and tell him that he is good, that he is merciful, that he is just, that he is love)

 

you better beleive that who else but he who goes every where we go? he fufills our desires.

 

 

Re

(Age of chandra guptha.Megasthanis visited India then and said "I have never seen a people more civilized than Indians.They dont know lies,theft and crime.Even if a bar of gold lays unclaimed on street nobody touches it.People are happy and intelligent to the core")

 

and why do you think that was the situation?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[maadhav]

<< Golden age that was perfect in my view:

 

Age of chandra guptha.Megasthanis visited India then and said "I have never seen a people more civilized than Indians.They dont know lies,theft and crime.Even if a bar of gold lays unclaimed on street nobody touches it.People are happy and intelligent to the core"

 

Which country was the most perfect?

 

Magatha under Chandraguptha and Chanakya.

 

Which culture is best for all the world?

 

Indian. >>

 

i have no disagreement.

by indian culture you mean the vedic culture.

 

 

<< Who is INgersoll please?

 

Greatest visionary of 19th century and philosopher. >>

 

please tellmore about it that coudl help solve hindu problems.

 

<< Which book all should read to get wise please?

 

 

Thirukural-By Thiruvalluvar. >>

 

no disagreement, however, i would say gita.

 

[sampath]

If all mankind realises this it will survive

 

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/how_to_reform_mankind.html

[barney]

A great thinker and reformist that he was but only a few understood him well. This is what he wrote about the Bible.

 

 

About the Holy Bible

by Robert G. Ingersoll

1894

**** ****

Somebody ought to tell the truth about the Bible. The preachers dare not, because they would be driven from their pulpits. Professors in colleges dare not, because they would lose their salaries. Politicians dare not. They would be defeated. Editors dare not. They would lose rs. Merchants dare not, because they might lose customers. Men of fashion dare not, fearing that they would lose caste. Even clerks dare not, because they might be discharged. And so I thought I would do it myself.

 

There are many millions of people who believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God -- millions who think that this book is staff and guide, counselor and consoler; that it fills the present with peace and the future with hope -- millions who believe that it is the fountain of law, Justice and mercy, and that to its wise and benign teachings the world is indebted for its liberty, wealth and civilization -- millions who imagine that this book is a revelation from the wisdom and love of God to the brain and heart of man -- millions who regard this book as a torch that conquers the darkness of death, and pours its radiance on another world -- a world without a tear.

 

They forget its ignorance and savagery, its hatred of liberty, its religious persecution; they remember heaven, but they forget the dungeon of eternal pain. They forget that it imprisons the brain and corrupts the heart. They forget that it is the enemy of intellectual freedom. Liberty is my religion. Liberty of hand and brain -- of thought and labor, liberty is a word hated by kings -- loathed by popes. It is a word that shatters thrones and altars -- that leaves the crowned without subjects, and the outstretched hand of superstition without alms. Liberty is the blossom and fruit of justice -- the perfume of mercy. Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy.

 

I

 

THE ORIGIN OF THE BIBLE.

 

A few wandering families -- poor, wretched, without education, art or power; descendants of those who had been enslaved for four hundred years; ignorant as the inhabitants of Central Africa, had just escaped from their masters to the desert of Sinai. Their leader was Moses, a man who had been raised in the family of Pharaoh and had been taught the law and mythology of Egypt. For the purpose of controlling his followers he pretended that he was instructed and assisted by Jehovah, the God of these wanderers.

 

Everything that happened was attributed to the interference of this God. Moses declared that he met this God face to face; that on Sinai's top from the hands of this God he had received the tables of stone on which, by the finger of this God, the Ten Commandments had been written, and that, in addition to this, Jehovah had made known the sacrifices and ceremonies that were pleasing to him and the laws by which the people should be governed.

 

In this way the Jewish religion and the Mosaic Code were established.

 

It is now claimed that this religion and these laws were and are revealed and established for all mankind.

 

At that time these wanderers had no commerce with other nations, they had no written language, they could neither read nor write. They had no means by which they could make this revelation known to other nations, and so it remained buried in the jargon of a few ignorant, impoverished and unknown tribes for more than two thousand year's.

 

Many centuries after Moses, the leader, was dead many centuries after all his followers had passed away -- the Pentateuch was written, the work of many writers, and to give it force and authority it was claimed that Moses was the author.

 

We now know that the Pentateuch was not written by Moses.

 

Towns are mentioned that were not in existence when Moses lived.

 

Money, not coined until centuries after his death, is mentioned.

 

So, many of the laws were not applicable to wanderers on the desert -- laws about agriculture, about the sacrifice of oxen, sheep and doves, about the weaving of cloth, about ornaments of gold and silver, about the cultivation of land, about harvest, about the threshing of grain, about houses and temples, about cities of refuge, and about many other subjects of no possible application to a few starving wanderers over the sands and rocks.

 

It is now not only admitted by intelligent and honest theologians that Moses was not the author of the Pentateuch, but they all admit that no one knows who the authors were, or who wrote any one of these books, or a chapter or a line. We know that the books were not written in the same generation; that they were not all written by one person; that they are filled with mistakes and contradictions. It is also admitted that Joshua did not write the book that bears his name, because it refers to events that did not happen until long after his death.

 

No one knows, or pretends to know, the author of Judges; all we know is that it was written centuries after all the judges had ceased to exist. No one knows the author of Ruth, nor of First and Second Samuel; all we know is that Samuel did not write the books that bear his name. In the 25th chapter of First Samuel is an account of the raising of Samuel by the Witch of Endor.

 

No one knows the author of First and Second Kings or First and Second Chronicles; all we know is that these books are of no value.

 

We know that the Psalms were not written by David. In the Psalms the Captivity is spoken of, and that did not happen until about five hundred years after David slept with his fathers.

 

We know that Solomon did not write the Proverbs or the Song; that Isaiah was not the author of the book that bears his name; that no one knows the author of Job, Ecclesiastes, or Esther, or of any book in the Old Testament, with the exception of Ezra.

 

We know that God is not mentioned or in any way referred to in the book of Esther. We know, too, that the book is cruel, absurd and impossible.

 

God is not mentioned in the Song of Solomon, the best book in the Old Testament.

 

And we know that Ecclesiastes was written by an unbeliever.

 

We know, too, that the Jews themselves had not decided as to what books were inspired -- were authentic -- until the second century after Christ.

 

We know that the idea of inspiration was of slow growth, and that the inspiration was determined by those who had certain ends to accomplish.

 

 

 

[maadhav]

<<

About the Holy Bible

by Robert G. Ingersoll

1894

**** ****

Somebody ought to tell the truth about the Bible. The preachers dare not, because they would be driven from their pulpits. Professors in colleges dare not, because they would lose their salaries. Politicians dare not. They would be defeated. Editors dare not. They would lose rs. Merchants dare not, because they might lose customers. Men of fashion dare not, fearing that they would lose caste. Even clerks dare not, because they might be discharged. And so I thought I would do it myself.

 

There are many millions of people who believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God -- millions who think that this book is staff and guide, counselor and consoler; that it fills the present with peace and the future with hope -- millions who believe that it is the fountain of law, Justice and mercy, and that to its wise and benign teachings the world is indebted for its liberty, wealth and civilization -- millions who imagine that this book is a revelation from the wisdom and love of God to the brain and heart of man -- millions who regard this book as a torch that conquers the darkness of death, and pours its radiance on another world -- a world without a tear.

 

They forget its ignorance and savagery, its hatred of liberty, its religious persecution; they remember heaven, but they forget the dungeon of eternal pain. They forget that it imprisons the brain and corrupts the heart. They forget that it is the enemy of intellectual freedom. Liberty is my religion. Liberty of hand and brain -- of thought and labor, liberty is a word hated by kings -- loathed by popes. It is a word that shatters thrones and altars -- that leaves the crowned without subjects, and the outstretched hand of superstition without alms. Liberty is the blossom and fruit of justice -- the perfume of mercy. Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy. >>

 

barney,

thanks for posting this.

 

some so called 'hindus' who keep saying "all religions are same, all paths are same" need to read this and judge themselves if what they are telling is the truth.

i certainly know it is not.

 

ali sina of iran is an "ingersoll" from islam.

please check his web page http://www.golshan.org

 

that is why the hindus need to keep the vedic land free from the invaded aggresive ideologoes. these are not compatible with sanatana dharma or gita.

 

does any xian read about ingersoll?

does any church talk about ingersoll?

 

most only know ingersoll-rand, a company that produces tractor like equipment for construction and land moving.

 

the hindus need to tell the xians about ingersoll.

[maadhav]

sampath ji,

 

i have not visited the link yet, but barney shared some info about ingersoll, and i thanked him. i also thank you for brining this matter to the attention here.

 

<< If all mankind realises this it will survive >>

 

could you please give a short summary what you would like the mankind realize to survive?

without that info, my commnets are:

 

- what is the threat in your view to the mankind please?

 

to me, one who gives up fighting totally (even with the asuras and adharma) is dead any way even if he is walking around or breadhing. for the minority saddam and his followers, the rest of the majority iraqis were dead even if they were/are breadhing and walking around. they could not subdue saddam. US is helping them, making them alive, and it seems hard to make them alive.

 

- why "all mankind" has to realize it?

 

the vedic literature says that in this material world "all" will never come to an agreement. at any time in future, there always will be more or less suras and asuras. so, conflict, big or small, violent or non violent, cannot be avoided in this world. the only thing one can do is to make a choice - from or for which side to fight.

 

krishna recommeds all the mankind to remain on the sura side (choose divine nature) and fight asuras. -- asuras will alwasy be willing to fight due to their demoniac nature. they will keep weapons legally or illegally. in contrast the gandhians have legally disarmed the hindus. all the gandhains have taught the hindus is to lick the rear of muslims and other non hindus and tell "we enjoy it." they however are clever in bribary because it is non violent. they do not care the interst of the nation or dharma. in my view they are asuras also (till they give up adharma).

 

- should we hindus care for the survival of "all mankind" or survival of hindustan as a vedic nation and the vedic dharma and culture?

 

if we totally give up saving hinduism and our lives, then that is suicidal, and all the anti-hindu would like it and would love us (dead). so, suppose we do not care to live and do not care if hinduism lives, then pretty soon we and our dharma is extinct, and there will not be hindustan. still, the mankind would survive. all the anti hindus would survive and take possession of our hindustan and you will see mosques or churches every where, but not a temple.

 

do you like that kind of sirvival?

 

i do not and, i want the hindus to understand that no one should desire that kind of mankind survival.

only the suras need to survive and win on the vedic land.

becaue, if a sura turnes into an asura, the suras would give him chance to become a sura again with some time limit. but if asuras win, they simply kill suras dead.

you review islam history and it will prove my point.

 

so, instead of worrying "the survival of mankind" we need to worry about the survival of hinduism in hindustan first, and ensure most hindus know dharma well and live by it without malpracticing it.

 

now about life and death:

 

no one wants to die, but death comes, sooner or later to all. so the wise thing to do is to choose how to live and how to die; when to live and when to die.

 

in a peaceful vedic varnasram society

a brahmana or a yogi would choose to quit the body at a holy tirtha and at an auspicious moment.

a kshatriya would choose to die fighting asuras.

a vaishya would choose to die afte colelcting a lot of money and giving a lot of charity.

a shudra would chose to die serving well the society.

 

but when the asuras do terrorism and adharma, killings an destructions, then the choices of how to live and die change. then "yuddhaaya krita nischaya... says krishna.

 

when a hindu, hindustan, or the vedic dharma and culture is under serious threat, then a hindu of any varna can do any other varna's karma. this is called kranti (internal or eternal change in short time for the survival of what deserves to survive.)

 

some demoniac lives and some asuric ideologies do not need to survive. get it?

 

namaskar!

 

[Guest guest]

taken from a lecture by swami vivekananda:

 

 

"What you only grasp intellectually may be overthrown by a new argument; but what you realise is yours for ever. Talking, talking religion is but little good. Put God behind everything &#8212; man, animal, food, work; make this a habit.

 

Ingersoll once said to me: "I believe in making the most out of this world, in squeezing the orange dry, because this world is all we are sure of." I replied: "I know a better way to squeeze the orange of this world than you do, and I get more out of it. I know I cannot die, so I am not in a hurry; I know there is no fear, so I enjoy the squeezing. I have no duty, no bondage of wife and children and property; I can love all men and women. Everyone is God to me. Think of the joy of loving man as God! Squeeze your orange this way and get ten thousandfold more out of it. Get every single drop."

 

also:

 

Since the time of Vivekananda, Vedanta has silently but surely influenced the thought currents of the world, and built a consensus of amity among all the branches of human knowledge. When Vivekananda visited America, Robert Ingersoll, the famous orator and agnostic, told him: "Forty years ago you would have been hanged if you had come to preach in this country, or you would have been burnt alive. You would have been stoned out of the villages if you had come even much later." But today the religions are in a process of continuous dialogue. The voice of Vedanta can be heard in such movements as "Save the Planet,Conserve the Forests,Preserve the Ozone Layer,Stop Cruelty to Animals", "One World, One Family," and others. At the present time, there is more consciousness of world unity than ever before. The voice of spirituality is becoming louder and louder, and the wave of spiritual democracy is breaking down the barrier of religiosity

 

hari om.

 

[maadhav]

dear guest,

 

knowing what you posted,

a hindu can relate to ingersoll better.

 

please pick a user name and visit this forum every day.

 

a side point:

vivekanand could sqeeze the orange better than ingersoll. but all are no sanyasis lik him, but still the true hindus can sqeeze the orange better than others.