between Krsna and Siva in proper perspective.

Pankaja_Dasa · May 21, 2004

Conversation:

_____

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, in Winnipeg there is one very pious east Indian man who for many years has been worshiping somewhat, worshiping Lord Siva. And his wife is also a very quite chaste woman and sincere follower-and so were her parents-of Lord Siva. And he is reading your Bhagavad-gita. He visits our temple. And I have given him the first volume of Canto Four which discusses Lord Siva a great deal. And he has read in one of your purports that Krsna is more pleased when you worship His devotee than when you worship Him directly. And Lord Siva is a very great devotee of Krsna. So he has now interpreted that to mean that if he worships Lord Siva so nicely, then actually he is pleasing Krsna more. So he is experiencing some difficulty because of this and I'm not quite sure how to instruct him that actually...

Prabhupada: Difficulty?

Brahmananda: That... Our Godbrother has difficulty in replying to this interpretation that Krsna says, "You can please Me by worshiping My devotee," and Lord Siva is the devotee of Krsna. So therefore this man says, "Then I shall worship Lord Siva. In that way I shall please Krsna."

Prabhupada: But if he accepts Lord Siva is devotee of Krsna, then by worshiping Lord Siva he will be benefited. If he thinks Lord Siva is independent, then he will not be benefited.

Devotee (3): I've got him to accept that Lord Siva is devotee of Krsna, but there's no practical instruction in his worldly activities coming.

Prabhupada: No, vaisnavanam yatha sambhuh: "Amongst the Vaisnavas, Sambhu, Lord Siva, is the greatest Vaisnava." So we worship Lord Siva as Vaisnava. We gives respect to Vaisnavas. So why not Lord Siva? Lord Siva is a big Vaisnava. But generally, the devotees of Lord Siva, they take Lord Siva is independent God. That is offensive. If you know that Lord Siva is also a devotee, you can give more respect to Lord Siva. Krsna will be pleased.

Devotee (3): Srila Prabhupada, he does not chant Hare Krsna, he chants om sivaya namah.

Prabhupada: That's all right.

Devotee (3): It's all right?

Prabhupada: He will gradually become devotee. When God, Lord Siva, will be pleased upon him, he will advise to worship.

Devotee (3): He is already trying to tell him to follow in your footsteps surely, so just before I left he said he will try once again to chant sixteen rounds of japa, Hare Krsna. He has tried already. He has a taste for...

Prabhupada: If he simply understands that Lord Siva is a Vaisnava and if he worships Lord Siva, then he will get the benefit.

Brahmananda: I was just thinking that in Hyderabad you also spoke something very unpopular when you were discussing about the worship of Lord Siva and Lord Krsna. And you used the example of the milk and the curd.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Brahmananda: And one man in the audience, he asked you, "Who is the milk and who is the curd?" And you said that "Krsna is the milk, and Siva is the curd." And he did not like that.

Prabhupada: There is milk and the curd. So one must become milk, one must become curd. So if Krsna is the origin of everything, then He must be the milk.

Sarva-karana-karanam [bs. 5.1].

isvarah paramah krsnah

sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah

anadir adir govindah

sarva-karana-karanam

[bs. 5.1]

So He is the cause of all causes. So if milk is the cause of curd, then Krsna is the milk. Come on. (some children enter room) Cause of all causes. Come forward. (end)

______

May 21, 2004

These are wild stories,

Prabhupada's and your perspectives and not proper perspectives

May 21, 2004

demonstrate it... in this way it is only an insult that you have done to yourself

atanu · May 22, 2004

Govindramji,

It is a forum. At least I do not use words like "cheater" as ephitets for Gurus. Neither do I call anyone Asura, fanatic etc.

Enough proof has been provided from Vedas in two threads: “The Lord is one” and “For your utmost pleasure Raghuramji”

Also read:

‘Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father.

Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us.’

Note: Blissful, un-decaying, father of the Universe.

Biased purports cannot get precedence over Rig Veda. I still hold: Lord is one. Shiva is Vishnu and Vishnu is Shiva.

Regards,

Atanu

May 22, 2004

siva is surely subordinate and krsna is the supreme as krsna says in the gita

but, of course, in some sense krsna and siva are the same like, in some sense krsna and jesus, krsna and the spiritual master, krsna and me are the same

so, for the fanatics that do not want to recognise that the divine principle is one and there's not polytheism.. sometimes one is strict to explain the truth putting more attention on oneness

and for the impersonalists/nichilists who want to blur the image of god to continue to make what they want and gratificate themeselves.. one has to put more attention on discrimination

so we can say that lord siva is subordinated to vishnu in the sense that he diplays less features.. the same with sri vishnu.. he is krsna when he's doing his job of controlling the universe

but, because krsna displays the intimacy that vishu does not shows.. we, considering intimacy more elevated that officiality, say that krsna is the supreme personality and vishnu and siva are derivate or subordinate

where's the difficulty?

if you criticize a great master devotee of the lord you are actually insulting yourself

Pankaja_Dasa · May 22, 2004

These are wild stories,

Prabhupada's and your perspectives and not proper perspectives

This how Gaudiya Vaishnava's look at it. If you want to argue, then ok, but do it in a respectfull manner.

Hare krsna.

May 22, 2004

Who is insulting whom? You are insulting Rudra-Shiva of Rig Veda. You people call great masters cheaters, fanatics etc.

I just bring to light the Rig Veda slokas and you become incoherent with rage, since you have no support other than purports which do not allign with shruti.

As embodied, Krishna is result of Adhyajna of Adhyatma. Adi Purusha Vishnu simply cannot be subordinate to Krishna.

Atanu

maadhav · May 22, 2004

Govindarama ji,

I wish you agree to the following,

but okay if you could not.

such analysis/arguemnets as this one - who is supreme, siva or krishna - is useless and foolish at this time of international terrorism. we the hindus have been suffering this terrorism since 1000 years in india. so the priority of the time is to unite on the lot of common ground and interests we all the hindus have and fight the asuric ideologies in india.

also note that the anti-hindus do have interst to cause internal strife within us, and they raise such debates/strifes like this when ever they can.

we do not want to fall in their trap.

a way to reslove the argument in the favor of the hindus and against the enemies is like this:

we hindu say, "we do not want to debate the issue at this time. those of us who are krishna devotees would first go to krishna and find from him direclty what the real asnwer is. same for the siva worshippers. they will first go to siva and find the asnwer directly from siva. this way we will not argue or dabate within us. any one - hindu or non hindu - who questions this, need to either realize krishna or siva first and then get the answer from Him. do not ask us. we have free will to worship any of the deva/devis, and we will exercise it. it does not matter if some one does not like it.

Please let me know what you think.

May 22, 2004

Yes I would try to be more respectful.

If only some debaters, disguised as guest, did not call esteemed Gurus cheaters and people fanatics and asuras etc.

Atanu

May 22, 2004

As embodied, Krishna is result of Adhyajna of Adhyatma. Adi Purusha Vishnu simply cannot be subordinate to Krishna.

krsna is not "embodied".. krsna is spiritual form, sat citananda rupa.. and also sri vishnu

May 22, 2004

If only some debaters, disguised as guest, did not call esteemed Gurus cheaters and people fanatics and asuras etc.

wich are the esteemed gurus called cheaters?

May 22, 2004

Whether Govindramji agrees or not, I agree.

But you also insinuate that anti hindus indulge in such debates to divert from real issues.

Just check up, who started this thread, comparing infinite beings.

Atanu

May 22, 2004

"krsna is not "embodied".. krsna is spiritual form, sat citananda rupa.. and also sri vishnu "

Krishna as spirit drove the chariot. Krishna as spirit took birth. Krishna as spirit grew up stealing butter etc. etc.

"wich are the esteemed gurus called cheaters?"

What is wich. I assume it is which.

Vivekananda and Ramakrishna have been given ephitets of cheaters. Shirdi Sai Baba a possible fake. And Sathya Sai Baba an Asura ( or was it rebell).

Pankaja_Dasa · May 22, 2004

The problem is Hindu' the term it includes everything from Vaishnava's to Shivites, as you can see from this forum, this is why Guests etc Reply to say 'Oh thats not true'.

Thats the first problem,

The others are:- will take care of themselves, through the spreading of the Sankirtana Movement, this should be your aim, and everybodys, there is no way '2' ways about it.

Look Prabhuji you know about Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His mission, let Krsna take care of the so-called demons.

As a side note I'd like to say, your hatred for Muslims is not very healthy, because there are no Muslims {body} in Goloka, only Krsna devotees.

May 22, 2004

"krsna is not "embodied".. krsna is spiritual form, sat citananda rupa.. and also sri vishnu "

Krishna as spirit drove the chariot. Krishna as spirit took birth. Krishna as spirit grew up stealing butter etc. etc.

...if matter can do these things.. spirit can do them much better...

maadhav · May 22, 2004

<< Look Prabhuji you know about Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His mission, let Krsna take care of the so-called demons. >>

my view is that we need to follow krishna at this time, not chaitanya. follow chaitanya when there is no terrorism.

<< As a side note I'd like to say, your hatred for Muslims is not very healthy, because there are no Muslims {body} in Goloka, only Krsna devotees. >>

i do not hate persons, i hate asuric actions or the actions of the asuric ideology followers. arjun loved bhishma, but he killed him because krishna said him to.

asuras and asuric ideologieis must be killed. it is good to love them and kill them, but it is not bad at all to not love them and kill them. the reality is that most people cannot love enemy. only a very rare person can love an enemy. gandhi foolishly loved the muslims, and you know what happened to him.

just sankirtan does not take care of the problems.

the history shows that we hindus were just doing that

peacefully in our hindustan, and islam invaded and slaughtered us. no hindu or HK will be spared by islam

if islam gets enough power. check the history and you will come to this realization.

our toleracne we showed to islam in india

is understood by the musilms as our cowardice and foolishness., and thier strength and might.

more we tolerate more bullish/terrorist they become.

you can see this behaviour enve in curren times in teh matter of kashmir. every time some one coms totalk of peace or negotiation, the muslim reaction is a bloody attack on hindus. now, you want to love them?

sure love, but you cannot tolerate them.

only the stones can tolerate adharma.

Pankaja_Dasa · May 22, 2004

All Glories to Sri Guru & Gauranaga!

my view is that we need to follow Krishna at this time, not chaitanya. Follow chaitanya when there is no terrorism.

That is not what's the Issue, Caitanya is Krsna its the same thing.

___

I would like to say to you provide Sastric Verses which predict Muslims as Asuras, or of any Vaishnava's saying the same.

May 23, 2004

<< Look Prabhuji you know about Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His mission, let Krsna take care of the so-called demons. >>

my view is that we need to follow krishna at this time, not chaitanya. follow chaitanya when there is no terrorism.

•••we are in kali yuga in the material world... every two second a person die, so death, injustice, murders and terrorism is not avoidable. So it is insane to put aside spiritual realization and only think at terrorism or whatever mundane and material

asuras and asuric ideologieis must be killed

•••so we have to be killed.. if we were sura (=saints), we were in vaikunta. The fact that we are in this material world shows that we are rebels against sri krsna bhagavan.. asuras... so following your logic and we have to be killed. And in a sense it is true... if we do not manage to go back home back to godhead very soon, we can be at the end of kali yuga and executed by sri kalki avatara. So better to quit this terrorist material world as soon as possible... helping also others to quit

just sankirtan does not take care of the problems.

•••sankirtan is the name of the lord... if you do not believe in the power of the lord's name i do not understand why you are calling yourself religious and hinduist. Why you talk as an atheist and you call yourself an hindu or vaishava or whatever?

only the stones can tolerate adharma.

•••so do not be a stone and stop saying adharmic things like blaspheming the harinama

so promote freely your ideas about anti terrorism but please leave them detached from religion.... they're different matters

May 23, 2004

You say:

•••so we have to be killed.. if we were sura (=saints), we were in vaikunta. The fact that we are in this material world shows that we are rebels against sri krsna bhagavan.. asuras... -----"

All that have taken a dress by birth through wombs need not be asura perpetually. It is true that birth is due to tendency to move away from the Lord, but during life time, many become devoteees and follow different paths which lead back to Lord.

Madhavji is absolutely correct that our endeavour should be to resist and fight asuric tendencies. But I feel that this should be done with love and all the time knowing that asuras have also descended from the Lord.

May 23, 2004

"...if matter can do these things.. spirit can do them much better... "

There is no end to contradictions. Matter is inert and cannot do anything. It is spirit that is the WILL. The WILL of ONE LORD. Only LORD is the DOER. We are under Maya that the dress is doing this and that.

But Krishna himself says: in this embodiment I am the Adhyajna.

So, to help mankind, He took up a dress.

Do you have problem here also? Yes. I anticipate a problem since you are prone to disagree to everything on impulse and then flounder because of self contradiction.

Atanu

May 23, 2004

"siva is surely subordinate and krsna is the supreme as krsna says in the gita"

Your saying "surely" will not make things any surer. Savitar-Rudra-Aditi-Vishnu (one entity really) is the Supreme in Rig Veda. Gita does not contradict Rig Veda.

In Gita Krishna says I am That un-decaying Supreme Brahman. Upanishad's also say: You art That.

There is no contradiction.

A Jnani (a real Jnani and not book worms like us)is That. One who has torn through the illusions and established himself perpetually in Sahaja Samadhi is That. He forgets his dress etc.

And Krishna? He is Adhyajna. How can He be not the Supreme?

Atanu

May 23, 2004

A few points:

1) One person early in this forum kept saying 'Siva is independent' - well of course, u see all pure devotees are granted independence in the sense that they are the only people with control over their senses and their destiny...Krishna grants Narada Muni the freedom to travel wherever he wants in the three worlds...Similarly, Krishna empowers Shiva to destroy the creation...

2) The one entity is regarding the fact that both Krishna and Shiva share the aspect of all-pervading Brahman

3) When they say 'she is the power of Vishnu' it is similar to Radha being the power behind Krishna...the purest devotee i.e. Radha is so devoted, that she controls Krishna without any intention of controlling Him...

4) Why is there such an obsession with insulting Islam in this forum? There's no Vaishnav spirit here...

5) Your fear about Vedic decline is unfounded...The only need is to practice the Vedic teachings, not go round denying Muslims their legitimacy...The fact that Vedas still remain after all invasions etc show the power of tolerance, not the weakness of it...One must follow the laws of God, to get ultimate happiness...there is no special circumstance when we disregard everything for the sake of protecting this vague 'Hindu' unity...

Haribol!

maadhav · May 23, 2004

<< That is not what's the Issue, Caitanya is Krsna its the same thing. >>

so then follow gita first.

krishna has the ultimate weapon: sudarshan

gita never gets stale.

some deluded could loose interest in gita though.

each avatar has different mission and different display of opulences. chanting/dancing before asuras with ak-47's cannot help at all. it is a sure way to get utter defeat and destruction of the vedic culture and vedic infrastructiure.

<< I would like to say to you provide Sastric Verses which predict Muslims as Asuras, or of any Vaishnava's saying the same. >>

please read daivasura sampad vibhag yoga chapter of gita.

then look the characteristic of the muslims who invaded and ruled india, tehn see the history of islam invasions and how we the hindus have duffered over 1000 years. afte that ask your self:

who are asuras for us?

then share your answer here.

i supppose you are not telling that each and everything must be predicted in the vedic scriptures. if you do, then your birth also is not predicted, nor mine, and we both do not exist then, per your view. no one can agree to this. and so you would need to correct your understanding.

of course it would be your choice.

maadhav · May 23, 2004

<< my view is that we need to follow krishna at this time, not chaitanya. follow chaitanya when there is no terrorism.

•••we are in kali yuga in the material world... every two second a person die, so death, injustice, murders and terrorism is not avoidable. >>

and so fighting is unavoidable.

the question is, on which side you want to fight?

to not fight is adharma,

and you can fight non violentlya also

if you cannot fight violently.

<< asuras and asuric ideologieis must be killed

•••so we have to be killed.. if we were sura (=saints), we were in vaikunta. >>

every society has enemies internal as well as external.

now, no one can win over the enemy by killing the self, generally. one has to live to fight asuras. we are here to do krishna's work and have come here from vainkuntha to do the job. [firefighters can live in airconditioned houses, but they prefer to jump in fire to do their dharma.] narad can live happily in vainkuntha, but he travels every where instead. figure why.

<< The fact that we are in this material world shows that we are rebels against sri krsna bhagavan.. >>

many yes, but not us hindus (hk's included)

we are the victims of those who rebell against krishna.

<< so following your logic and we have to be killed. >>

understand what i said above. we have to live and unite to fight. vainkuntha is already ours.

<< And in a sense it is true... if we do not manage to go back home back to godhead very soon, we can be at the end of kali yuga and executed by sri kalki avatara. >>

kalki does not kill his devotees, us.

why not reduce some burden of kalki now?

<< So better to quit this terrorist material world as soon as possible... helping also others to quit >>

not a good conclusion if you understand what i said above.

<< just sankirtan does not take care of the problems.

•••sankirtan is the name of the lord... >>

sankarshaNa, not sankirtan.

sanmirtana is a verb, not a noun.

<< if you do not believe in the power of the lord's name >>

go in paksitan or saudi arabia, and make tHE muslims dance by chantoing hare krishna. then see how long you live.

DEMONSTRATE AND PROVE YOUR POWER.

go to israel and make jews and palestianians dance with hare hrishna mantra. why waste time with the hindus?

i am not saying nama has no power,

but the degree and sphere of power are differnt.

your canting can make me dance,

but it can make a muslim shoot at you so easily.

sure you will go to vainkuntha very fast that way, but your devotee friends who also want to go will keep suffering here from the asuras. is that teh way you want to go to vainkuntha?

<< only the stones can tolerate adharma.

•••so do not be a stone and stop saying adharmic things like blaspheming the harinama >>

wow, what a response from a devotee

to one who loves krishna.

<< so promote freely your ideas about anti terrorism but please leave them detached from religion.... they're different matters >>

sorry, not different as i see them.

only krishna can help you understand this.

i cannot.

a hindu lives by dharma, not religion.

these two are different.

May 23, 2004

STOP being hypocritical and YOU follow the Gita.

1) The only reason Mahabharata was justified as a dharmic war was because Krishna desired it.

2) How do we know Krishna desires us to denounce Islam all round the world?

Firstly, Krishna is not here personally to tell us...

So we must go to a BONA FIDE SPIRITUAL MASTER...are u saying that your spiritual master is telling u to go and denounce Islam?

thats outrageous..

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between Krsna and Siva in proper perspective.

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