Vaishnavas are not hindus?!!!!!!!!

[Guest guest]

if you want to keep a position you have to sustain it logically... to say "let us not vascillate" without valid arguments and demnstrations it is useless

[Guest guest]

yes vaishnavas are not to be labelled as a national religion, vaishnavism has to spread all over the world, if identified with hinduism it is not philosophically correct and would be more difficult to show to people of other nationality

 

personally i would like to know the reason of this obstination to keep everything under that hindu flag

 

i see only political and nationalist interest

[Guest guest]

<-- The topic under discussion is, some people have claimed that Vaishnavas are not hindus and vaishnavism is not hinduism -->

 

I am not diverting. One of the Guests blamed vaishnava view as sectetarial & blamed vaishnavas dont follow vedas. thats why i answered him.

 

so its only the Guest diverting the topic. not me.

 

anyway i have no problem when someone calls me a hindu. i am just bothered about my salvation, not with these "petty" issues.

 

[Guest guest]

who is bothered only by his salvation is first of all educate and appreciative toward others, but you offend the ones who think that this debate is important for spirituality

 

it is your attempts to mask your bad behaviour and fanaticism with great devotion that seems very "petty"

 

 

[Guest guest]

< --- who is bothered only by his salvation is first of all educate and appreciative toward others, but you offend the ones who think that this debate is important for spirituality

 

it is your attempts to mask your bad behaviour and fanaticism with great devotion that seems very "petty"

--- >

 

Taking my stand is not a fanatism. only blaming others as secterarial is fanatism.

 

anyway do u have any more abusing words to hurl at me ? u can hurl all the abuses, as i am not bothered.

 

but you are abusing me without any proper reason [ my vaishnava views may sound a bad behaviour to you. wat to do ? you seem to be tamasic ]

 

I just asked the guest to demonstrate his view/stand. so i think hurling abuses is the way of demonstration from your side. ok i bear it .

 

May God Krishna bless you.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Shri Guru Raghavendraya

[Guest guest]

Dear Gokul

 

If hari dasas are not hindus , then where does madvacharya & Ramanujacharya fall into.

 

One more request for all who are posting under the name guest ,please put ur name or atleast use some nick name as it is very confusing to know who is saying what as there are guest all around.

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

 

(Friend and Vaishnava, two in one package. )

I have never read anywhere Arjun declared himself to be a Vaishnava, he is called that by inference.

 

Re

(You can't be a Friend of Krsna, without being a Vaishnava, Arjuna says I have dined with, been familiar with you, I did not know you are Supreme God, Arjuna was sorry, but he had no reason to be, those are qualities of a Vaishnava.)

 

We all have relationship with the Lord, Vaishnava is a designation.

What! Qualities of a Vaishnava are to be sorry when you do not have to be sorry?

Re

 

(You can't find this in any common man, thats includes Hindus.)

Arjun was not a common man that will be a hard act to follow in this day and age.

Jivas are for ever sorry, making mistakes all the time.

Jai Shree Krishna

The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

 

[Ganeshprasad 0]

 

Jai Ganesh

Re

(--no, this verse speak of the moment when the duties are fulfilled and it is the time of abandone everything..)

 

Arjun wanted to do this in the first place lamenting seeing no good coming out of this war, he wanted to abandon every thing.Bg.2 Arjun laments

 

Bg.18.59/60

If due to ego you think: I shall not fight; this resolve of yours is vain. Your own nature will compel you (to fight). (18.59)

What you do not wish to do out of delusion; you shall do even that against your will, bound by your own nature-born Karma, O Arjuna. (18.60)

 

Re

( including sectarian and nationalistic religion (not religion at all.. religion means connection.. yoga)

 

Yes no one likes sectarians

but how are you going to separate the two, if you cant strike a balance, if you do not have law and order where is your chance to practice your religion?

 

Re

(I don't think you can put Vaishnava into a catagory of a Religion,)

Yes Vaishnava is one who worship Lord Vishnu.It is a way of life,religion has no meaning for this.

--of course, so the "hinduism" religion has no meaning too

 

Yes if you want to put it that way, it is a way of life.

 

Re

(religion?--the one accepted by faith, birth, tradition, nationalism)

Faith, very essential

Birth- no accident.

Tradition- worth holding on to

Nationalism- natural but no need to brag about

 

Re

 

It is said to follow the path of dharma is like walking on a double edged sword.

(--so let us do not mix nationalism with spirituality... hindu means india )

 

When a soul is in material condition of life the two is inseparable, that is why Krishna says

Bg. 16.24

Therefore, let the scripture be your authority in determining what should be done and what should not be done. You should perform your duty following the scriptural injunction.

Hindu means a way of life

 

Jai Shree Krishna

The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Sakteramji,

 

<--- If hari dasas are not hindus , then where does madvacharya & Ramanujacharya fall into.

--->

 

i didnt tell anywhere vaishnavas are not hindus.

 

only some guest started this controversial topic of telling vaishnavas are not hindus.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Shri Guru Raghavendraya

[Guest guest]

"only some guest started this controversial topic of telling vaishnavas are not hindus."

 

Actually it all started when one guest in another thread claimed that Vaishnavas cannot be hindus.

 

That thread is titled ISKCON(and) Hinduism. And I have just C&P from that.

 

So I started this thread to clarify.

 

"i didnt tell anywhere vaishnavas are not hindus."

 

Then what do you want to say? Do you say Vaishnavas are Hindus are not? Its a simple question. Your answer is like Rajni Voice.

 

I cannot allow a certain sect or gumbal to divide hinduism because a certain guru or an individual has taught so.

[Guest guest]

"if you want to keep a position you have to sustain it logically... to say "let us not vascillate" without valid arguments and demnstrations it is useless "

 

You talk as though you have given a convincing answer?

[Guest guest]

(--no, this verse speak of the moment when the duties are fulfilled and it is the time of abandone everything..)

Arjun wanted to do this in the first place lamenting seeing no good coming out of this war, he wanted to abandon every thing

--nice objection.. the answer is that there's nothing bad in renunciation, the bad is to renunciate when we are not ready. Sannyasa stage is for everyone, but at the end of life. So for arjuna in kuruksetra the real renunciation was to follow his karma with dedication to krsna.. and the conclusion of a life devoted to god through turning karma in yoga is the total renunciation, sarva dharma, any duty, any sectarian religion and so on

 

, if you do not have law and order where is your chance to practice your religion?

--law and order is a government business.. i do not understand how they will come by uniting artificially different religions or ways to think the transcendence in one

 

Bg. 16.24

Therefore, let the scripture be your authority in determining what should be done and what should not be done. You should perform your duty following the scriptural injunction.

---this instruction is precious and absolute... is it suggesting to identify dharma with a nation?

 

Hindu means a way of life

---hindu means various way of life.. many extremely different and sometimes opposite...

 

(no religion is called with the name of a nation... christianism is not "palestinism" and buddhism is not "tibetanism" and so on.. so why we have to do a thing like that with india?)

[Guest guest]

"if you want to keep a position you have to sustain it logically... to say "let us not vascillate" without valid arguments and demnstrations it is useless "

You talk as though you have given a convincing answer?

 

as i have said the problem is yours

 

gaudya vaishnavas all over the world have no need, meaning and interest to call themselves with the name of a nation even, of course, appreciating india, appreciating place of pilgrimage and appreciating also the fact that indian people have mantained a great part of the original sanatana dharma very much better than all the people of the world

 

so if you want to promote something you have to make the main effort .. but you are judging and insulting.. not the best way to convince anyone

[Guest guest]

vaishnavas are monotheists and they worship Vishnu tattva only and no one else.

 

there are 4 types of Vaishnavas mentioned in BG.

 

rest are materialists who worship demigods other than absolute truth.

 

 

[Guest guest]

vaishnavas are monotheists and they worship Vishnu tattva only and no one else.

 

not exact.. devatas are to worship as servants of sri vishnu and as helps for us to obtain devotion for vishnu

 

no despise of devatas, only giving them the right place

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

(--no, this verse speak of the moment when the duties are fulfilled and it is the time of abandone everything..)

Arjun wanted to do this in the first place lamenting seeing no good coming out of this war, he wanted to abandon every thing

--nice objection.. the answer is that there's nothing bad in renunciation, the bad is to renunciate when we are not ready. Sannyasa stage is for everyone, but at the end of life. So for arjuna in kuruksetra the real renunciation was to follow his karma with dedication to krsna.. and the conclusion of a life devoted to god through turning karma in yoga is the total renunciation, sarva dharma, any duty, any sectarian religion and so on

 

, if you do not have law and order where is your chance to practice your religion?

--law and order is a government business.. i do not understand how they will come by uniting artificially different religions or ways to think the transcendence in one

 

Bg. 16.24

Therefore, let the scripture be your authority in determining what should be done and what should not be done. You should perform your duty following the scriptural injunction.

---this instruction is precious and absolute... is it suggesting to identify dharma with a nation?

 

Hindu means a way of life

---hindu means various way of life.. many extremely different and sometimes opposite...

 

(no religion is called with the name of a nation... christianism is not "palestinism" and buddhism is not "tibetanism" and so on.. so why we have to do a thing like that with india?)

 

 

 

NOT Atall

You have answered most of my post out of context if i have time i will get back to it

 

 

Jai Shree Krishna

The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

 

 

[maadhav 0]

<< Most of racial tension is caused by designations, which would be good to get rid off, I am Muslim/Hindu etc >>

 

designations are real, meaning they exist,

and play a useful role in comunication.

the world cannot function without names and classifications.

e.g. if you and i have the same user name, and same look, and same everything, then it really will confuse the world.

then i could commit a crime and you will be punished.

 

there is america and there is india. these are different designations. if you change your designation arbitrarily from indian to american, that will not help you get in america.

 

there is islam, and there is sanatana dharma.

these two are different. just by you thinking you are not a hindu will not make you a muslim. you are what you are.

 

there are races, but hnduism is not about races.

recently pope said somthing like, "the children of abraham (meaning arabs or the muslims) should give up terrorism."

you see, he thinks in terms of races - blood relations. we don't. we hindus say that it is adharm to kill or forcibly convert any one. but for islam and xianity it is okay, and recommended by their books. to us it is adharma per gita.

 

even a statement like "a am an HK or a vaishnava" also has a designation. Hk's keep telling the world that they are not setarian, but they make two sectors: vaishnava and non vaishnava. while the hindis can live happily with many differetn sects, HK's find difficult to live with non vaishnavas.

 

so, names, forms, different qualities and colors, different ideologies and religions, are there. that is reality.

what we need to do is study/analyse/find what is best for all, and what could give most happiness to most people most of the times.

 

there are levels of knowledge of a thing.

e.g. say a watch.

first designation: watch.

second: made of gold, not brass

3rd; digital not mechanical

4th: quatrz controlled, not GPS controlled.

5th: how may components

6th: material of each component or method of manufacturing or quality.

7th: atomic structure and forces of each component

 

you see, all these are designations.

 

in hinduism we have three realizations:

 

1)

AhAra nidrA bhaya maithunam cha

sAmAnyam etad pashhubhir narANAm

 

eating, sleeping, mating, and defending are common activities between man and animals. all know this, and most stop there and think that we all are animals only. but hinduism does not stop there. it says:

 

2)

sAhitya sangIta kalAvihinaH

sAkshAt pashhuH puchchha vishANa hIna

 

this says a man without literature, music, and arts is just an animal without a tail. some stop here, but hinduism dose not. it says:

 

3) yat karosi yad asnAsi..tat kurusva mad arpaNa

 

here krishna says:

what ever you do, what ever you eat, do it for me only.

there are many such verses that say that we need to be god conscious, else we are no men but animals.

that means we should read scripture literature, sing praise of god and goldy peoplema devotees, and do art about god and his lila, etc. only. no need to make a superman movie.

just read hanumanji's lila. no need to read arabian knoghts, just read deeds of ghatotghachchha.

this is the final realization, final designation that we are an eternal part of krishna, we are his devotees. many will know this, but a few only will realize it and live by it. that however does not mean the previous two designations are wrong. they are real, but not at the deepest level. it will take time for one to move from 1) to 2) to 3).

 

At any given time, all teh people in the world will not be at only one level. this is a reason for conflicts and wars.

and this cannot be avoided. so the only choice is to fight if that is the last option left. we fight for dharma, not like raavana or ben ladin who fight for adharma. now they will say it is their religion, but what do we care?

we know dharma from gita, and live by it.

 

could you agree?

never say you are not a hindu.

say it, and be/feel happy about it,

and be readly to convince others

why it is soo... good to be a hindu.

 

 

[Guest guest]

even a statement like "a am an HK or a vaishnava" also has a designation. Hk's keep telling the world that they are not setarian, but they make two sectors: vaishnava and non vaishnava. while the hindis can live happily with many differetn sects, HK's find difficult to live with non vaishnavas.

---so why all this effort for hinduism? it seems to me that you are in difficulty to deal with non hindus and you do not bear the fact that there's many tendences and it is impossible to reunite them under the "hindu" name.

The other fact is that it is very easy to see thah undiscriminate union is worse than division. So it is stupid to think that if i do believe to be in a religion different from yours i think at you at an enemy.

And this is your problem... you have some political purpose and you simply want to use the hinduism as a war weapon, so you are interested in union even if based on nothing.

 

I am very afraid of people afraid of difference..