ISKCON (and) Hinduisim

[Guest guest]

your problem is that you mix philosophy, politics, behaviour and so on

 

i surely prefere to live in the same house with a peaceful advaitin or mayavadi than a violent muslim

 

but this is not our discussion

 

the original one was "why vaishnavas (or hk) think that they are not hindus?"

 

my answer is "because the differences among hindus, in the fundamental concepts of the various school, are even more greater than from these schools and some "non hindu" religion"

 

another example is that an advaitin is more close to buddhism than to vaishnavism and a mayavadi is a buddhist in other dress

 

religion is a thing, who i want as neighborhood is another

 

as i said, as i do not judge if to be your friend by skin colour, nationality, caste, culture, politic ideas... i do not judge even by religion

 

so if i do not feel to be in the same your "hinduism" what's the problem? and why i have to explain thai i do not thing that bhagavad gita is the only scripture if i have not said it? and why i have not to say that sometimes, because christian believe in one god, it is more easy to turn them in vaishnavas than an hindu who apparently is very close but there's the same old stuff that we are god, anyone is god, we will discover that we are god, krsna is nothing but brahman that takes a shape and so on?

 

why all this fear to be different?

[Guest guest]

And human beings also have the formless soul or life force inside the body, which is not at all physical. So is the concept of Saguna Brahman and Nirguna Brahman.

 

many thanks for the help.. but this is a different concept from vaishnavism (and you so are free to criticize vaishnavism and to put it out of hinduism)

 

soul is not formless, it has not material form, but it has spiritual form

 

if forms is not present in the spiritual realm, how can exist in the material one?

 

material form is birth, death, disease

 

spiritual form is satcitananda

 

it is not possible to be nirguna and simultaneously sat cit ananda

 

nirguna is "no attribute"

 

sat is an attribute... eternal

cit is an attribute... conscious

blissful is an attribute.... blissful

 

and there's variey in the spiritual realm, not oneness in the advaitin sense, because if one's conscious he has to be conscious of something else, and if one's blissful it is due to some relationship

 

so in the absolute state no material gunas but infinite spiritual gunas, no material variety but infinite spiritual variety... and the oneness is expressed in being one in an eternal loving relationship wth god, krsna, vishnu

 

i do not want, to preach vaishnava idea, i want only to demonstrate why me and you do not belong to the same religion even if we use similar terminology, concepts and so on

[Guest guest]

That was an example, how humans can have organs of different and opposite functions, have form and formless attributes, but still function harmoniously.

 

So does different philosophies and different paradigms makes hinduism a rich religion.

[Guest guest]

Ha. ha.

 

As if Vaishnavaites and for that matter Hk's agree unanimously.

 

 

[Guest guest]

or it is an example of the fact that one can be peacefully friend of everyone without being pushed forcefully into a group

 

krsna is universal, vishnu is universal, brahman is universal, siva is universal.... why this hindu pride to make them only "indians"?

 

now that all over the world so many people is accepting these messages you feel the need to put boundaries?

 

sarva-dharman parityajya

mam ekam saranam vraja

aham tvam sarva-papebhyo

moksayisyami ma sucah

 

 

TRANSLATION

Abandon all varieties of (sectarian) religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Foolish.

 

*******soul is not formless, it has not material form, but it has spiritual form

if forms is not present in the spiritual realm, how can exist in the material one?********

 

He seems to have seen the spiritual form.

 

Atoms are wave forms but they appear to us as iron, copper and water etc.

 

[Guest guest]

fool is who having no answers insults people

 

but no problem... if you hindu champion think that we are foolish why all this thread to call us in hinduism?

 

so let us alone and bye!!

[Guest guest]

" if you hindu champion think that we are foolish why all this thread to call us in hinduism?"

 

Again its the same problem.

Only you think Vaishnavas are not hindus.

What we say is, " Its not correct". Vaishnavas are a sect of hindus.

[Guest guest]

only imposition and no demonstration.... useless

 

if you are happy in this way.. no problem :-)

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

This problem will go on for A person who thinks Hindu is a religion.

 

Hindu is a way of life, seeking to explore the supreme brahman,various concepts existed in the vedic times and i dare say will exist in future. Unity has been a natural progresion,it is born out of mutual respect for a soul's eternal quest to seek the truth.

 

although there are different concepts within the Hindus, there exists common approach both external and internal.

Externaly we all go to same temples,worships the same Lord in different forms, and internaly we must transend the three gunas.

Take Karma out of the equation and all the concepts and the meaning of life falls apart.

 

People from outside calls this Hindu, most of us have no problem with this but someone who has taken up a part of this way of life, wants to be divisive

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

[Guest guest]

This problem will go on for A person who thinks Hindu is a religion.

--wrong.. this is not the problem.. If me and you together join a group we must have something in common and something who makes us different from others. My point is that hinduism is not in this way. Many so called hindu schools have opposite beliefs and many hindu schools are more close to some non hindu religions than to some hindu ones. We are at a more basic level, call hinduism as you want, religion, dharma, way of life, style, tradition, no problem... my point is that there's not a strong common point who reunites all these different religions, dharmas, subgroups, schools coming vaguely from india.

 

Unity has been a natural progresion,it is born out of mutual respect for a soul's eternal quest to seek the truth.

--artificial unity is useless and mutual respect is to be done also respecting differences

 

Externaly we all go to same temples,worships the same Lord in different forms,

--but with opposite purposes.. a personalist will go to the temple thinking that the archa murti is the supreme, the impersonalist will go to the temple seeing this murti as a maya's form to help ignorant people to reach absolute, The first wil see this position as the worst blasphemy and offence. How can they be in the same religion?

 

and internaly we must transend the three gunas.

--this is a very marginal part of religion, to transcend materialism to reach spiritualism is in every religion,, they will call it virtue instead of sattva but the meaning is the same. Many schools also do not consider it a goal to be achieved with separated efforts.

 

People from outside calls this Hindu

--and this gives the well known problem that people very often believe that hinduism is a mix of strange, polytheist and tribal beliefs. And this comes from the fact that hinduism has not a real common generative concept (it is demonstrated also by the fact that at every request "wich is the general, common principle of hinduism, every one gives a different answer)

So this non-definition gives also bad propaganda.. why every one has to be trapped in this name?

[Guest guest]

********my point is that there's not a strong common point who reunites all these different religions, dharmas, subgroups, schools coming vaguely from india. ******

 

Vedas are the common books for all hindus, that unite Vaishnavas, Saivas, Smarthas and all other sects. Gita comes after that.

 

I put the blame on you to look for reasons to divide the hindus.

 

I also alllege that you made some statement in the thread and your ego is big enough not to accept the facts, and you are repeatedly arguing.

 

YOu are not a guru or an exponent of hinduism to understand the complexities of hinduism.

 

 

[Guest guest]

I would agree with you, that it is the Vedas that are the authority, but these sects came after and were largely based on Puranas and Agamas. I believe these two smriti's and their commentators have caused much of the sectarian problems we have today.

 

If there is a sect today that vagely resembles the religion of the Vedas, it is probably the Smarthas as their view that all gods are different forms or manifestations of the One God is in line with what is revealed through Vedic mantras.

 

The philosophical argument comes really from 3 or more interpretations of the Upanishads, that of Advaita, Vishistadvaita and Dvaita and how the founders of these re-hashed schools. The Upanishads are shruti and the concluding portion of the Vedas and they are common to all Hindus, the difference is the interpretation. Simply because there is a different interpretation of the Upanishads view of God, Soul and matter some sects want to split from Hinduism and become a seperate religion, because they can't stand being lumped with the others. This will only cause more problems and is really just another excuse for an argument.

 

[Guest guest]

Vedas are the common books for all hindus, that unite Vaishnavas, Saivas, Smarthas and all other sects. Gita comes after that.

--but they take them all with different and opposite meaning, so this common following does not exist

 

I put the blame on you to look for reasons to divide the hindus.

--and now i know what is your personal concept of hindu tolerance and freedom... blame on who has different opinion (without even any serious attempt to demonstrate that this opinion is wrong)

 

I also alllege that you made some statement in the thread and your ego is big enough not to accept the facts, and you are repeatedly arguing.

--why not to accept the opinion difference? why insult? why i am supposed o belong to the same your group if you keep on insulting who does not agree with you?

 

YOu are not a guru or an exponent of hinduism to understand the complexities of hinduism.

--but even a non guru has given rational reansons that you, expert of all complexities, cannot answers if not with insults and bad words

 

if your purpose is to reunite, i think that you have failed, if i want to reunite myself with someone i do not insult him

 

if you are a ral hindu my interest to join hinduism is less than when we have started to discuss, bye :-)

[Guest guest]

*****why not to accept the opinion difference? why insult? why i am supposed o belong to the same your group if you keep on insulting who does not agree with you?*****

 

Its not a opinion difference.

Its factually incorrect.

Thats the reason why I am against it.

I am least concerned if you belong to any group. I am only objecting your ignorant views on Vaishnavism and hinduism.

 

My purpose is not to reunite. Off course Hinduism is better off without a fanatic who does not accept the facts.

 

 

All I am asking you is not to mislead others into believing that Vaishnavism another religion.

 

[Guest guest]

"All I am asking you is not to mislead others into believing that Vaishnavism another religion."

 

opinion difference, and i think that yours is a lost battle because maybe vaishnavas are in the same number from west and east... if not a little more from west

 

but if you think that i mislead, you are free to think so

 

the fact is that you have not given any demonstration but only insulting... this is a real fact,

 

indian religions are very well known for eloquence and capacity to sustain subjects with logic and rationality, without blind faith.. so if you want to be indian ot hindu or vaishnava, surely you have to learn something more on how to behave in discussion and debates to honour indian tradition

 

namaste

[Guest guest]

"opinion difference, and i think that yours is a lost battle because maybe vaishnavas are in the same number from west and east... if not a little more from west"

 

Only due to Hare krishnas, who are not accepted by other Vaishnavas. Is this the superiority complex you got? It's a number game to you?

 

[Guest guest]

"opinion difference, and i think that yours is a lost battle because maybe vaishnavas are in the same number from west and east... if not a little more from west"

 

Only due to Hare krishnas, who are not accepted by some other Vaishnavas. Is this the superiority complex you got? It's a number game to you?

 

[Guest guest]

Only due to Hare krishnas, who are not accepted by some other Vaishnavas

--there's not lack of acceptation but some disagreeing.. but if you think of non acceptation this is not a problem for me.. i have no fear of opinion's difference

 

Is this the superiority complex you got? It's a number game to you?

--like i have said if you want to convince you cannot do it with critics and insults

 

my opinion is that, being a concept not belonging to scriptures, there's no need to use this name "hinduism"

 

and there's no use to give to vaishnavism the name of a nation when it is preached all over the world

 

there's no need to became indian or hindu to learn and practice vaishnavism

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

Re

(--wrong.. this is not the problem..)

I see Hindu as a way of life you see it as religion. It is wrong as well as not a problem,so what is it?

 

Re

(If me and you together join a group we must have something in common and something who makes us different from others. My point is that hinduism is not in this way. Many so called hindu schools have opposite beliefs and many hindu schools are more close to some non hindu religions than to some hindu ones.)

 

When we go to school, we are all a student. When we study spirituality we are fellow seekers. We study from same books, we worship the same gods. We all accept the Karma principal, dharma principals are the same, goal of life is to reach the supreme Brahman. Since the Lord is undefineable, unfathomable, not limited in any sense, the concepts of this same supreme varies depending on from which angle one is looking.

 

Re

(We are at a more basic level, call hinduism as you want, religion, dharma, way of life, style, tradition, no problem... my point is that there's not a strong common point who reunites all these different religions, dharmas, subgroups, schools coming vaguely from india. )

 

What you call basic level, are actually fundamental principal to understand the supreme.

In any case without the basic principal say 2+2 , more complex maths equation will fall apart.

 

 

Re

(--artificial unity is useless and mutual respect is to be done also respecting differences)

 

Unity can not be artificial. Respect yes, tolerance also; nice virtue.

 

Re

(Externaly we all go to same temples,worships the same Lord in different forms,

--but with opposite purposes.. a personalist will go to the temple thinking that the archa murti is the supreme, the impersonalist will go to the temple seeing this murti as a maya's form to help ignorant people to reach absolute, The first wil see this position as the worst blasphemy and offence. How can they be in the same religion?)

 

Who says same religion?

Same way of life, different concepts, Vedas talk of Maya, impersonal Brahman, Bhagvan.

 

 

Re

(and internaly we must transend the three gunas.

--this is a very marginal part of religion, to transcend materialism to reach spiritualism is in every religion,, they will call it virtue instead of sattva but the meaning is the same. Many schools also do not consider it a goal to be achieved with separated efforts.)

 

Marginal? wow

 

 

Re

(--and this gives the well known problem that people very often believe that hinduism is a mix of strange, polytheist and tribal beliefs. And this comes from the fact that hinduism has not a real common generative concept (it is demonstrated also by the fact that at every request "wich is the general, common principle of hinduism, every one gives a different answer)

So this non-definition gives also bad propaganda.. why every one has to be trapped in this name? )

 

Well known to who? Who is trying to make propaganda? No one is trapping anyone. One is free to choose that is the beauty of Hindu way of life.

May be you can demonstrate here, apart from different concepts that does exists, what are the different answers, to common principals?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

 

[Guest guest]

(--wrong.. this is not the problem..)

I see Hindu as a way of life you see it as religion. It is wrong as well as not a problem,so what is it?

--it is not important for our discussion now... there's a name, a definition, i am simply saying that this name, definition, style, religion, way and so on does not really unite anything

 

When we go to school, we are all a student. When we study spirituality we are fellow seekers.

--there's not a moment when a spiritualist is no more a student, one does not stop to learn..... if seeking is the common point there's also buddhist, christians, muslims who are seeking

 

We study from same books

--many times interpreting them in opposite ways

 

we worship the same gods

---many times having of these gods different conceptions and, sometimes, thinking that these gods are maya, illusion, a thing to discard (mayavadis and advaitins)

 

We all accept the Karma principal, dharma principals are the same

---karma is a very basic law, also science beliefs in some sort of cause-effect law... so basic to put together people with opposite concepts on more fundamental matters

 

goal of life is to reach the supreme Brahman.

--many thinks that brahman is not the supreme, many thinks that choosing to go to nirguna brahman instead of param brahman is like a spiritual suicide, worst than materialism or atheism

 

Since the Lord is undefineable, unfathomable, not limited in any sense, the concepts of this same supreme varies depending on from which angle one is looking.

--yes and no.. there's vision that one judges compatible with his one, others different in some details, other opposite, other blaspheme.. so where is the commpn principle to say that we are belonging to the same group?

 

What you call basic level, are actually fundamental principal to understand the supreme.

--religions are united by more esoteric matters, by the common understanding on who is the living being, who is god and so on.

And if we go in details the indian religions have also opposite beliefs on why we are subjected to karma law, how can we get out from it, who is the source of karma law, what is to do to get out.... if we dig we find tremendous differences even in basics

 

Unity can not be artificial

--it seems to me that searching this hindu unity is artificial and done for no spiritual reason, but political, national pride, revenge against muslims and so on... of course i will change my idea when a demonstration of the opposite will be given

 

(Externaly we all go to same temples,worships the same Lord in different forms,

--but with opposite purposes.. a personalist will go to the temple thinking that the archa murti is the supreme, the impersonalist will go to the temple seeing this murti as a maya's form to help ignorant people to reach absolute, The first wil see this position as the worst blasphemy and offence. How can they be in the same religion?)

Who says same religion?

Same way of life

--ok... how can they be in the same way of life?.... i do not consider blasphemy compatible with my own way of life, so there's no need for me to join the same group of someone who, for me, is blaspheming

 

different concepts, Vedas talk of Maya, impersonal Brahman, Bhagvan.

--but the interpretations are opposite, christians say god, muslims say god... but we are not muslims or christian but something different

 

Marginal? wow

--yes.. in comparison with other more important truths, to recognise that we do not act with our own powers but that these powers are given by god it is surely marginal... all religions say this

 

Who is trying to make propaganda? No one is trapping anyone. One is free to choose that is the beauty of Hindu way of life.

--yes, the only thing that it is said by every hindu advocate is that hinduism is everything and the opposite of everything, and this is very blissful... in a sense it is a nice idea, in another sense it is another kind of fundamentalism, that everything has to be watered and that who goes deeper is a fanatic... not enough to reunite so many spiritual ideas

 

apart from different concepts that does exists, what are the different answers, to common principals?

--i have already said them even in the message that you were answering.... if you do not see them as differences, it is clear that we do not belong to the same "hinduism"... so there's no need of it

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

( --it is not important for our discussion now... there's a name, a definition, i am simply saying that this name, definition, style, religion, way and so on does not really unite anything)

 

Unity in diversity democratic, individuals’ choice to accept or reject, no mixing of groups

but mutual respect of each others. You are coming from outside finding very hard to understand this but believe me what you fail to see does exist.

 

Re

(--there's not a moment when a spiritualist is no more a student, one does not stop to learn..... if seeking is the common point there's also buddhist, christians, muslims who are seeking)

 

Yes learning is on going process, that is why we are talking, we may have some similarity and we may disagree on others but you and I are part of this forum, if you can see the point.

As for Christians and Muslim although they are also seeking but they are not of the same school there way of life is different they study their own scripture

While with Buddhist I can identify with them more closely even though there concept of the supreme is different, but there way of life is so similar.

 

 

Re

(We study from same books

--many times interpreting them in opposite ways)

 

And why should that be a problem? I look at a bottle half empty some one else might see that as half full.

I see a rainbow it is beautiful, I like one color more then the others someone may like opposite then me and someone colorblind may only see one or two colors, someone else like them all. still a rainbow

 

Re

(we worship the same gods

---many times having of these gods different conceptions and, sometimes, thinking that these gods are maya, illusion, a thing to discard (mayavadis and advaitins)

 

Conceptions will remain until the truth is realized.

 

 

Re

(---karma is a very basic law, also science beliefs in some sort of cause-effect law... so basic to put together people with opposite concepts on more fundamental matters)

 

 

If the basic law is not understood, nothing can make sense. That is why others can’t answer why people suffer? They say why is god so cruel? Why does god allow so much killing? So it is important to know this basic things first and only then you can progress towards more fundamental matters.

 

 

Re

(--many thinks that brahman is not the supreme, many thinks that choosing to go to nirguna brahman instead of param brahman is like a spiritual suicide, worst than materialism or atheism)

 

So let it be their their choice.

 

 

Re

( --yes and no.. there's vision that one judges compatible with his one, others different in some details, other opposite, other blaspheme.. so where is the commpn principle to say that we are belonging to the same group?)

 

Yes, and that goes on, different groups within the same university of Vedic (Hindu) dharma.

 

 

Re

( --religions are united by more esoteric matters, by the common understanding on who is the living being, who is god and so on.)

 

Scarcely one out of thousands of persons strives for perfection of Self-realization. Scarcely any one of the striving, or even the perfected persons, truly understands Me. (7.03)

 

different concept will follow until we realize

Where is the question of uniting different concepts of god?

We can have common practice, common laws common scriptures but common understanding?

Look at what Lord Krishna is saying.

 

Re

(And if we go in details the indian religions have also opposite beliefs on why we are subjected to karma law,)

 

Why, is a difficult question to answer. Gahana karmano gatih.

 

Re

(how can we get out from it, who is the source of karma law, what is to do to get out.... if we dig we find tremendous differences even in basics)

 

Really? Care to elaborate.

All I know is I am getting fruit of my action, good or bad, as a result of my Karma. There is a lot more to it but this my simple understanding.

 

 

Re

(Unity can not be artificial

--it seems to me that searching this Hindu unity is artificial and done for no spiritual reason, but political, national pride, revenge against muslims and so on... of course i will change my idea when a demonstration of the opposite will be given)

 

No I am not searching for unity it was there well before Muslim came, and it is here now, different concepts are not a new phenomina.

Fact that Hindu dharma has survived thousand years of occupation is a testimony in itself. How could we have survived the false propaganda, forcible conversion?

Revenge is not in nature of Hindu, no country would have let the symbol of occupation survived a minute longer. The fact that many eyesore still exist on the holy land which a constant reminder to us of their cruelty is an example in itself of our patience.

National pride is natural.

Politics? Raj niti should be based on dharma.

 

 

Re

 

(Same way of life

--ok... how can they be in the same way of life?.... i do not consider blasphemy compatible with my own way of life, so there's no need for me to join the same group of someone who, for me, is blaspheming)

 

Absolutely no need to join any group, but if you are following certain way of life, reading the same scriptures, worshiping the same god but with different concept, people will identify you as the same. At the end of the day it is an individual’s choice, we came to this world alone we leave alone, and only thing that goes with us is our Karma. Concept of the supreme lord is still a concept, our realization will be our own, and we can only pass that on as a concept.

 

Re

 

(--but the interpretations are opposite, christians say god, muslims say god... but we are not muslims or christian but something different)

 

That is because they study different scriptures, there way of life is different, they do not believe in reincarnation they believe in eternal hell and heaven, they say animals have no soul, I am an individual who follow Hindu way of life, I belong to no group. I am an infidel or a heathen according to some.

 

 

Re

(Marginal? wow

--yes.. in comparison with other more important truths, to recognise that we do not act with our own powers but that these powers are given by god it is surely marginal... )

 

To transcend the three gunas are marginal to you may be. I am struggling to give up my ego.

The threefold fruit of works — desirable, undesirable, and mixed  accrues after death to the one who is not a renunciant (Tyagi), but never to a Tyagi. (18.12)

 

Re

(all religions say this)

 

give example.

 

 

 

Re

(--yes, the only thing that it is said by every hindu advocate is that hinduism is everything and the opposite of everything, and this is very blissful... in a sense it is a nice idea, in another sense it is another kind of fundamentalism)

 

Go on have your cake and eat it.

 

Re

(, that everything has to be watered and that who goes deeper is a fanatic... not enough to reunite so many spiritual ideas)

 

Who goes deeper finds the pearl; in Hindu a sanyasi is revered. Spiritual ideas can only be respected.

 

 

Re

(apart from different concepts that does exists, what are the different answers, to common principals?

--i have already said them even in the message that you were answering.... if you do not see them as differences, it is clear that we do not belong to the same "hinduism"... so there's no need of it )

 

What are the differences to common principals please list them, if I don’t see them as different surely it means we agree?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

 

[Guest guest]

Unity in diversity democratic, individuals’ choice to accept or reject, no mixing of groups

but mutual respect of each others. You are coming from outside finding very hard to understand this but believe me what you fail to see does exist.

--if you understand why do not you explain it to me? unity in diversity and so on are not enough, you can give this definition to everything

 

Yes learning is on going process, that is why we are talking, we may have some similarity and we may disagree on others but you and I are part of this forum

--yes, this is a similarity .. we have some differences and some similarities... i discuss if these similarities make us belong to the same religious or spiritual brand, or way of salvation, way to see the life and so on

 

(We study from same books

--many times interpreting them in opposite ways)

And why should that be a problem?

--it is not at all a problem.. only i do not think that we belong to the same group, that's all... no problem at all

 

(we worship the same gods

---many times having of these gods different conceptions and, sometimes, thinking that these gods are maya, illusion, a thing to discard (mayavadis and advaitins)

Conceptions will remain until the truth is realized.

--so let us not negate differences until we feel them... when we will be realized maybe we will take other decisions.. no problem

 

If the basic law is not understood, nothing can make sense. That is why others can’t answer why people suffer? They say why is god so cruel? Why does god allow so much killing? So it is important to know this basic things first and only then you can progress towards more fundamental matters.

--of course you are very right... indeed it is for me not enough to put opposite schools in the same group. I have many things in common with chinese, but ia m not chinese, i ahve many things in common with an advaitin, but i have too much things in opposition to make impossible to make a group with him. If a people see me and him together and say "you are hindus" this has no meaning and creates a big confusion.. he is more close to a buddhist than to me and i am more close to a christian than to him. So if i am not in a group with christian, i am not in a group with advaitins (and i think that they do not want to be grouped with me)

 

(--many thinks that brahman is not the supreme, many thinks that choosing to go to nirguna brahman instead of param brahman is like a spiritual suicide, worst than materialism or atheism)

So let it be their their choice.

--different choice... different names... no problem

 

( --yes and no.. there's vision that one judges compatible with his one, others different in some details, other opposite, other blaspheme.. so where is the commpn principle to say that we are belonging to the same group?)

Yes, and that goes on, different groups within the same university of Vedic (Hindu) dharma.

---so where's the project, the program, the common ground of this university if in a classroom some one teachs the opposite of the other one? there's nothing like that in schools and universities

 

different concept will follow until we realize

--there's no need, we are already different.... let us unite if we will find something in common, why unite whimsically?

 

Where is the question of uniting different concepts of god?

--if you are speaking of a religion, a way to get salvation, a way to reach the absolute what do you want to unite? wich common principle is needed if not the same concept of god?

 

We can have common practice, common laws common scriptures but common understanding?

--this is required... but there's nothing bad if it is not in this way.. we are different and that's enough, no problem in living in peace

 

Look at what Lord Krishna is saying.

Scarcely one out of thousands of persons strives for perfection of Self-realization. Scarcely any one of the striving, or even the perfected persons, truly understands Me. (7.03)

--no objection.. if you think that no one knows the truth, why do you want to make a group where no one knows why they were grouped and for wich purpose?

 

(how can we get out from it, who is the source of karma law, what is to do to get out.... if we dig we find tremendous differences even in basics)

Really? Care to elaborate.

All I know is I am getting fruit of my action, good or bad, as a result of my Karma. There is a lot more to it but this my simple understanding.

--this is how it works, not why

 

No I am not searching for unity it was there well before Muslim came

--i also think that originally there was a unity, but there was also a conceptual unity that did keep people together... and that was all over the world, not only in india.. in this way it is factual and productive to be united, same concept, same name.. sanatana dharma

 

Fact that Hindu dharma has survived thousand years of occupation is a testimony in itself.

--no hindu dharma is not original, hindu is, like other religions, a product of kali yuga, a corruption of the original sanatana dharma that, in my opinion was vaishnava dharma (i do not claim now to be right, simply i am not ina group who thinks that this opposite conceptions are all together the same dharma and that they were originally existing in satya, treta, dvapara yugas...)

 

National pride is natural.

--but it has nothing to do with spiritual dharma and usually does not give the name to religions.. so if the worsippers of christ are christians, the worshippers of vishnu, shiva, nirguna brahman are vaishnava, shaivites, advaitins... why hindu? why a name who resembles a nation? why one who loves christ is not a palestinian but a shaivite has to be (h)indian even if he's from poland? national pride is natural as you have said, so it is a crime to lose even one people who would want to worship vishnu, or siva, or ganesh and so on but he does not belong to india

 

but if you are following certain way of life, reading the same scriptures, worshiping the same god but with different concept, people will identify you as the same.

--so let us stop this identification for external things, this is not an advantage for anyone, it creates confusion

 

At the end of the day it is an individual’s choice, we came to this world alone we leave alone, and only thing that goes with us is our Karma. Concept of the supreme lord is still a concept, our realization will be our own, and we can only pass that on as a concept.

--it is very nice that every word i read from this message is meant to make more vague the reasons to be an hinduist. It is like you were saying "nothing is real and definite so let us unite on nothing" instead of finding reasons to unite.

 

(--but the interpretations are opposite, christians say god, muslims say god... but we are not muslims or christian but something different)

That is because they study different scriptures, there way of life is different, they do not believe in reincarnation they believe in eternal hell and heaven, they say animals have no soul,

--so me and you are not christian or muslim.. or maybe chinese, football players, f1 pilots and other billions of "we are not...".... it makes us hinduist?

 

I am an individual who follow Hindu way of life

--that i think that it does not exist or, if your definitions are right, i do not think that vaishnavism belongs to it(the original subject of the thread)

 

To transcend the three gunas are marginal to you may be. I am struggling to give up my ego.

---it is marginal as a concept to put together people under the same way of salvation when in more important things the differences are huge... not that i have transcended the 3 gunas

 

Re

(all religions say this)

give example.

---all religion say that we have to give up material life (the one under the 3 gunas) and join spiritual life.... ways and goals differ, but this is very basic. The word religion means reunion with the absolute (.... leaving the relative)

 

in a sense it is a nice idea, in another sense it is another kind of fundamentalism)

Go on have your cake and eat it.

---yes, because also the imposition of an artificial unity is imposition, fundamentalism, fanaticism... no one knows why, but we have to be united

 

Who goes deeper finds the pearl; in Hindu a sanyasi is revered. Spiritual ideas can only be respected.

--so show these common spiritual ideas in the different religions that you want to unite under the same name

 

What are the differences to common principals please list them

--for example on what is the neture of the absolute, who is or what is.... the most important thing of a spiritual path

 

if I don’t see them as different surely it means we agree?

--no it means that we disagree on another subject... you see no difference, i see difference... so we do not belong to the same hindu denomination for this reason too

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

What EXACTLY is the iskon definition of 'hindu' that they so dispise being a part of?

 

Do other Gaudiya sects and other Vaishnava sects have such a big hissy fit about being called 'hindu'?

[Guest guest]

the questions are not correct, maybe you despise who not thinks like you, read all the debate and you will find opinion differences and no despise... if not from you

(in the other thread you said that you hate vaishnavas who think different by you)