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ISKCON (and) Hinduisim

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gokul will give his answer.. but i can say that karma is a very marginal theory and that it is hidden in all religions

 

or better.. it is very natural to think that if i made an action i have to get a reaction now or the next day, month, year, century, yuga

 

so it cannot be a theory to put a religion only on it, the other religion ideas are on esoteric things, on the main ideas on transcendence.. who's god. are we souls or bodies... not on external concepts

 

so if the only thing in common for the so called hidus is the simplest part of karma theory it is not enough

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dear saketramji,

 

i have to refer "Bhagavath-Gita" & works of "Madhvacharya" to give you exact answer. I will refer & tell.

 

Before that you have once said you are "Madhava birth" by birth.

 

so hers my dooubt. i am a great devotee of Rayaru, mukya pranaru & madhvaru . after studying three great philosophies dwaitam appears more sensible to me. i am a sourashtra brahmin. am i eligible to embrace dwaitam ? will any madhva guru accept me & initiate me ? waht should i do ?

please guide me regarding this.

 

Please dont skip this question as its very important to my life.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Shri Pujyaya Guru Raghavendraya

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My question was based on the facts that christianity does not have this karma theory any sin you do are forgiven so you dont carry anything ,ur a clean slate if you confess to jesus.I dont know about ISLAM.Since people here claim that iskcon/vaishnavism is not a part of hinduism how is that handled ?

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*****Dont think, Hinduisms greatness lies in accomodating all these differnt philosophies?

..hinduism does not accomodate, simply he puts things together indiscriminately. A good person is already peaceful and tolerant without the need to create a fase religion to force all together******

 

A good Christian will not accomodate other religions.

A good muslim will not accomodate other religion.

A good Hindu and and average hindu and even an illiterate hindu is accomodative of other religions.

 

 

*****Christian believes in Christ totally not related to hinduism. You are making a faulty lofic by comparing dissimilar faiths

..see at the principles, names are not so important... a vaishnava believes in a personal god, a christian believes, an advaitin says that this personal god is maya. I do not want to say that hindus are inferior to others, because it is not true at all, i only want to say that hinduism is not one religion, it is many religions, many opposite.******

 

Thats the way the religion is built. based on diverse philosophies offereing the freedom of thought and action. That is the uniqueness of hinduism.

 

Hindus right from the childhood are taught that, Vishnu has 10 avtars and Krishna is one of the Avtars. Krishna lived like a man and died like a man. He off course expressed his divine powers. But thats all different. It is Vishnu, Perumal or SrimanNarayanan that is god. All others are avtars.

 

 

 

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dear saketramji,

 

Before that you have once said you are "Madhava birth" by birth.

 

so hers my dooubt. i am a great devotee of Rayaru, mukya pranaru & madhvaru . after studying three great philosophies dwaitam appears more sensible to me. i am a sourashtra brahmin. am i eligible to embrace dwaitam ? will any madhva guru accept me & initiate me ? waht should i do ?

please guide me regarding this.

 

Please dont skip this question as its very important to my life.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Shri Pujyaya Guru Raghavendraya

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saketramji, I am hearing that vaishnavism?iskon is different from Hinduism for the first time in my life.

 

I somehow feel that this sort of post creates a divide even among hindus.

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I really dont know an answer to this, Cos i never had anybody asking this question.Since my whole family was a madhva family i was brought up like that with teachings like "Hari Sarvothama, Vayu Jeevothma". I have had mudhradhana in the rayaru mutt.But going by madhvacharya's teaching u are already doing that as he said "As there is no other god other than hari" .He meant vishnu to be supreme.

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A good Hindu and and average hindu and even an illiterate hindu is accomodative of other religions

--transalate it as "one of the many hindu religions is accomodative.." it is good and very nice.. but not enough to make a unique religion (also many christians are accomodative.. )

 

Thats the way the religion is built. based on diverse philosophies offereing the freedom of thought and action. That is the uniqueness of hinduism.

--freedom of belief is a great thing, but is it a religion in itself?

 

Hindus right from the childhood are taught that, Vishnu has 10 avtars and Krishna is one of the Avtars.

--it is not my fault.. bhagavad gita is there, very easy to read and understand.. if we want to consider scriptures instead of popular beliefs i think that it is more serious

 

Krishna lived like a man and died like a man

--consider better the scriptures and you will find that this is not exact.. krsna is god

 

It is Vishnu, Perumal or SrimanNarayanan that is god. All others are avtars.

--this thread is not the place to go in details .. me and you are vaishnavas, if you consider the vishnu aspect superior to krsna aspect and e the opposite it is not at all important now, The main fact is that we are not in the same religion with someone who says that both vishnu and krsna are maya and the brahman is the only absolute... this is my point

(i do not argue with vaishnavas, if one thinks that krsna is the supreme, or vishnu, or varaha, or narasimha he goes to vaikunta in the planet of that aspect of god (not that god.. god is one), so vaikunta is vaikunta, if we agree on it there's no reason to argue even if one has his preference)

 

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Iam not saying Vaishnavites are not Hindus, if you read this whole thread u will understand that it has been mentioned by some not by me.

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I did not mean you.

I am pointing to you out that somebody in this forum has such an idea. Sorry if I have communicated wrong.

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Its something like this Jesus was by birth Jew but his followers are christians. May be like that Krsna by birth was a hindu but his followers(only people who mention that vaishnavas are not hindus) belong to a different sect. konjam thalai suthudhu.

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Dear Saketramji,

 

you can enquire my queries to your parents/community. i think they will answer. pls help. i wanna really come inside madhvam. tell them that i am a vaishnava & sourashtra brahmin, so that they can consider me.

 

you are very fortunate to be born in madhva family. gee you are also very fortunate to be have mudraa in "rayaru mutt". hmmm

 

if i am not liberated after this birth, krishna should atleast allow me to born in a madhva family in my next birth

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Shri Pujyaya Guru Raghavendraya

 

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****(also many christians are accomodative.. )*****

They are not accomodative of other faiths.

 

***Hindus right from the childhood are taught that, Vishnu has 10 avtars and Krishna is one of the Avtars.

--it is not my fault.. bhagavad gita is there, very easy to read and understand.. if we want to consider scriptures instead of popular beliefs i think that it is more serious****

There are older books than Gita. Gita is not the only book of Hinduism. If you are taught that gita is the only book, just step out of the ring and see what else is there, in vaishnavism itself.

So dont fault others who are practicing hinduism and not have just read one book.

 

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Yes.

I am also Kuzhambified to see such seperatist views in this forum.

Especially back in India, where we are broght up as hindus, going to all temples, praying all gods, saints etc.

And especially in tamilnadu where we tolerate even the scum of dravidian politics.

And that too considering the fact that my neighbour is a madwa brahmin ( we are tamil smarthas) and they worship all hindu gods, celebrate all hindu festivals, go to tirupati, mantralayam, go to tiruttani, visit murugan temples, and all that. And I have lot of iyengar friends who visit Kanda Kottam regularly.

 

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It's very simple to understand if you care to use your head.

 

Vaishnavism is a part of Hinduism that believes in Vishnu as Saguna Brahman or Ishwar - the personal God. Other forms of Hinduism substitute Vishnu with Shiva or Shakti and yet other forms believe in only the Impersonal Nirguna Brahman which has no form. Then you got those who believe that God is both personal and impersonal and makes itself accessible to different people of different levels or spiritual views.

 

In the case of other religions such as Christianity and Islam, they believe that their way is the ONLY true way and all other religions are false and will lead their followers to hell. I am telling you as it is. This sort of view is incompatible with Hinduism. For example, Islam believes in destroying idols whereas many Hindus worship God through idols. So tell me if a muslim comes and shashes the Krishna idol you pray to, would you believe the Allah they worship is the same as Krishna you worship? If you do then you need to reassess the situation. Why would God give two different revelations (Koran and Gita) which splits people into groups.

 

We agree that all these religions believe in God, but what they differ on is the 'concept' of God and the revelations which are DIFFERENT. Just because Vaishnavism may be closer to Christianity in terms of both having a personal God compared to Smartha (Advaita Vedanta) or Arya Samaj which believe in an impersonal God, it doesn't make them the same or closer as they disagree in some fundamental aspects. For example, in Christianity it is ONLY through Christ and none other that you achieve salvation, for Vaishnavism it is through Vishnu's grace, devotion and good karma. Christians DO NOT believe that their concept of God is Vishnu, they believe in their 'father in heaven', they DO NOT accept law of Karma, reincarnation, moksha, etc or any Hindu avatar to be true. They say it is all false, including your Krishna and needs to be destroyed. So learn to face the facts.

 

Please DO NOT dodge the issue, learn to accept that all religions teach different things, though there are some similarites between them.

 

I agree with the previous post that there are many more scriptures in Hinduims for exaple our Shrutis are Vedas and Upanishads and the Gita is a commentary on the Upanishads, by Sri Krishna which show you how to live the Upanishdic message in daily life.

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Its something like this Jesus was by birth Jew but his followers are christians. May be like that Krsna by birth was a hindu but his followers(only people who mention that vaishnavas are not hindus) belong to a different sect.

--"may be" is not a good point... see scriptures and theologies of the various hindu schools and you will see that it is impossible to find a real fundamental common theory among them

 

your concept of who is krsna demonstrates how this incompatibilities between so called hindus are deep

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****(also many christians are accomodative.. )*****

They are not accomodative of other faiths.

••ok.. you are speaking of things that you do not know

 

There are older books than Gita. Gita is not the only book of Hinduism. If you are taught that gita is the only book, just step out of the ring and see what else is there, in vaishnavism itself.

••if you want to discuss you surely do not want to make jokes.. bring other books and sustain your ideas with the other books, no problem

 

So dont fault others who are practicing hinduism and not have just read one book.

••this is a nice way to avoid discussion.. easy jokes, insults and speculations.. show that you can rationally and logically answer to my points if you can. Otherwise you are blindly believing in something that you do not understand

 

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******There are older books than Gita. Gita is not the only book of Hinduism. If you are taught that gita is the only book, just step out of the ring and see what else is there, in vaishnavism itself.

••if you want to discuss you surely do not want to make jokes.. bring other books and sustain your ideas with the other books, no problem*******

 

No Jokes. Vedas are older than gita, Upanishads are older than gita. Your ignorance makes you think its a joke.

 

What else do you need? YOu are close minded. First explore what hinduism is, then you will find I am not joking.

 

I point out the way, you still require a proof.

I explain logically that there is more to hinduism, and Vaishnavas are hindus. But still you dont seem to get it.

 

And there are tamil vedas, and tamil vaishnava literature, tamil saiva literature and all that. So its pure ignorance to consider that Gita is the only book.

 

 

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Vaishnavism is a part of Hinduism that believes in Vishnu as Saguna Brahman or Ishwar - the personal God. Other forms of Hinduism substitute Vishnu with Shiva or Shakti and yet other forms believe in only the Impersonal Nirguna Brahman which has no form. Then you got those who believe that God is both personal and impersonal and makes itself accessible to different people of different levels or spiritual views.

•••and this is a very nice thing... the problem is for classification.. to say that me and you belong to the same religion or form a religion it is required to have common beliefs at least on the fundamentals. You have written of three positions each one believing that the other is maya. Example: a vaishnava does not despise nirguna brahman, but a vaishnava thinks that brahman is the effulgence of vishnu and that it is not possible an eternal realization of brahman because the soul has to act and , from brahman, she comes back in the material world until he realizes the personal supreme aspect of god

 

for an advaitin a vaishnava is an ignorant who needs images and puppets to concentrate on some spiritual idea

 

so nothing bad, variety is very nice, but how conciliate these opposites in a religion?

 

,

 

In the case of other religions such as Christianity and Islam, they believe that their way is the ONLY true way and all other religions are false and will lead their followers to hell.

••it is not a very important subject to say if hinduism exist or not or if gaudya vaishnavas are hindus. Indian people are very nice and tolerant.. but this does not build a religion

 

So tell me if a muslim comes and shashes the Krishna idol you pray to, would you believe the Allah they worship is the same as Krishna you worship?

••one can say anything, also that he's a follower of a religion and not practise it, allah means "the highest" paramatma means "the highest of living beings".. the fact that one can disturb other religious faiths has nothing to do with religions, even if he claims to be religious. And what's the problem? are hare krsna saying that they are not hindu but muslims? so why bother? why i have to explain to you that i am not muslim?

 

Vaishnavism may be closer to Christianity in terms of both having a personal God compared to Smartha (Advaita Vedanta) or Arya Samaj which believe in an impersonal God, it doesn't make them the same or closer as they disagree in some fundamental aspects.

••the same thing as muslims, no one want to make gaudya vaishnava a christian sect.. and the other concepts you have brought (only through christ, different name of god (vishnu and jahveh), no karma law, no recognising of avatars and so on) do not bring advaitism more close (krsna/vishnu is maya.. the personal god is an illusion for people at the lower stage of spiritual life)

 

They say it is all false, including your Krishna and needs to be destroyed. So learn to face the facts.

••i am preaching from 20 yrs in the west, i know what is the situation... ad you do not know

 

Please DO NOT dodge the issue, learn to accept that all religions teach different things, though there are some similarites between them.

••this is my point... i have started saying that someone believes that hinduism is one religion but they are at least Three with some external similarity. Vaishnavas so, as you are rightly saying, are not christians, muslim, buddhist and hindus

 

I agree with the previous post that there are many more scriptures in Hinduims for exaple our Shrutis are Vedas and Upanishads and the Gita is a commentary on the Upanishads, by Sri Krishna which show you how to live the Upanishdic message in daily life.

––all scriptures have the same value ... it is the opposite interpretations that differentiate religions even among the so called "hindus"

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No Jokes. Vedas are older than gita, Upanishads are older than gita. Your ignorance makes you think its a joke.

••the joke is that you have speculated that i believe that gita is the only valid scripture... and you are going on thinking to have found a very clever thing to win the discussion

 

I explain logically that there is more to hinduism, and Vaishnavas are hindus. But still you dont seem to get it.

••the thing that you have to explain is how opposite beliefs on fundamental principles can belong to the same school, dharma, religion and so on... i am not criticizing anyone, i think only that artificially unite things that are not really to be united is a great problem.

 

So its pure ignorance to consider that Gita is the only book.

••a bigger ignorance is to put words in people's mouth usng a discussion like a battle without any will to explain and to be explained

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Do you mean to conclude or Convinced that Vaishnavas are not Hindus?

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"i am preaching from 20 yrs in the west, i know what is the situation... ad you do not know"

 

In your 20 years of preaching, you don't seem to have learn't much.

 

It's easy to say that others don't know, I'm not going to boast about my knowledge of Hinduims and other faiths, but at least I take each religion as it is - as the followers see it and as their scripture teaches.

 

"allah means "the highest" paramatma means "the highest of living beings".. the fact that one can disturb other religious faiths has nothing to do with religions, even if he claims to be religious."

 

Well, now I know you truly don't know what you're talking about! You're one of those people who are in denial. So what if the words mean the same thing? If the God of a religion teaches that other religions are false and those who don't follow the religion I have laid down is a non-believer and is destined for eternal hell, then how can you say it's got nothing to do with the religion? It is surely a big part of the religion! The religion means that other religions and their practices need to be destroyed and the people converted to the 'true' religion of God and it is not a bad thing but the duty of the believers to 'save' the non-believers from following 'false' religions.

 

I think it's pretty much straightforward, no need to strain your brain over it.

 

 

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He is in the denial mode.

SO he will not agree at all.

 

When Govindram raised this issue, i gave an example of habits and I believe he is pretty much convinced or may boe does not want to argue anymore. But this guy seems to be relentless and a hard core fanatic.

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"••the joke is that you have speculated that i believe that gita is the only valid scripture... and you are going on thinking to have found a very clever thing to win the discussion"

 

If you have read the other scriptures of hinduism and know the exact posotion of Gita with respect to Vedas and Upanishads and other literature, you will not make a clown of yourself like this.

 

"••the thing that you have to explain is how opposite beliefs on fundamental principles can belong to the same school, dharma, religion and so on... i am not criticizing anyone, i think only that artificially unite things that are not really to be united is a great problem."

 

Just take the case of human body. THink about it. Human body has different organs that does different functions, and some does exactly opposite. Take for example mouth. The job of mouth is to eat. Where the job of the other end is entirely opposite. Yet the human body is a single entity.

There is no artificial unity. Its all harmony. And thats the way the hinduism is followed.

And human beings also have the formless soul or life force inside the body, which is not at all physical. So is the concept of Saguna Brahman and Nirguna Brahman.

 

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simply i think that hinduism or religion commonly related with india are not one... at least personalist, impersonalist and nichilists

 

it is possible to convive, to help each other, to do some things together, but there's not enough common basis to be one religion together

 

this is my only point

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