Swami Narayan and Vallabha on Shiva

Ganeshprasad · October 14, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Re

(It is mainly recognised by Gaudiya sampradaya, but that does not mean it is not bona fide. The prayers to Krsna from Brahma were discovered in Kerala by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu - he is predicted in countless Vedic scriptures as an incarnation of Krishna.)

You do not get the point do you, I said the supreme lord is glorified and that is all that matters.

Re

(I am not rejecting Bhagavat Purana - where do you get that idea from?)

You simply have to read your statements, you had said you accept what Shiva and Brahma says more than what Prajapati worship. Therefore I quoted to you what Brahma had said SB 4.6/45. and that is why you resorted to Brahma Samhita. In other words you did not like what you read in Bhagvat puran what Brahma is saying

Now you are saying you agree to part of what Brahma says. Let me quote this again and see if you agree or not.

SB 4.6.42: Lord Brahmā said: My dear Lord Śiva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way.

SB 4.6.43: My dear lord, you create this cosmic manifestation, maintain it, and annihilate it by expansion of your personality, exactly as a spider creates, maintains and winds up its web.

You have a knack of changing the flow of discussion to suit you, let me know if you agree to above?

Jai Shree Krishna

Ganeshprasad · October 14, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Re

(Let us please not demean Sanatana Dharma. If you believe without doubt that Maha Visnu or Krishna is the Supreme Lord, you are true -- since such a belief exists in the Supreme concsiousness alone. In that case, Lord Shiva will be the best aspect of the Supreme Lord. But then if you demean Shiva, you are only demeaning the Supreme Lord by demeaning His best aspect.

Similarly, if I demean Visnu, considering Shiva as the Supreme Lord (which belief also exists in the Supreme concsiousness alone), and then I demean the Supreme Lord.)

Such a realization is worthy of highest praise, for you have realized the essence of supreme who is one without a second. Goswami Tulsidas said some thing similar in the worship of sri Ram. May god bless you, you are a pillar of strength in my own conviction.

Jai Shree Krishna

October 15, 2004

"SB 4.6.42: Lord Brahma said: My dear Lord Shiva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way."

I accept what Brahma says. And as Brahma expands on this point in the Brahma Samhita, there is no difference between Lord Vishnu and Lord Shiva in their original positions, but still Lord Shiva is different from Lord Vishnu. The example is given that the milk in curd is not different from the original milk from which it was made.

"SB 4.6.43: My dear lord, you create this cosmic manifestation, maintain it, and annihilate it by expansion of your personality, exactly as a spider creates, maintains and winds up its web"

Yes, I accept what Brahma says and to elaborate:

BS 5.45: Just as milk is transformed into curd by the action of acids, but yet the effect curd is neither same as, nor different from, its cause, viz., milk, so I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whom the state of Shambhu is a transformation for the performance of the work of destruction.

In other words, Govinda is the personality that Brahma refers to who expands to create, maintain and annihalate the cosmic manifestation. The self-realised soul can see the presence of the Lord in everyone, especially the spiritual master. Since Lord Shiva is the spiritual master of the universe, Brahma treats him like God. We are all taught to treat Guru as good as God, since he is the medium. Also, Shiva is the divine halo of the Supreme Lord, so one can understand when Brahma prays to him as the Supreme Lord. This is not say that Brahma has no knowledge of the source of the divine halo, as confirmed in the Brahma Samhita.

Now, you answer my question, do you agree with the following statements from Brahma and Shiva respectively?

Quote 1: BS 5.43 - Brahma says: Above Mahesh Dham is Hari-Dhama, and above them ALL is located Krsna's realm of Goloka. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, who has allotted Lord Shiva and the devis the authority to rule their respective graded realms.

Quote 2: SB 4.24.43: Shiva says: Lord Krishna you are also the supreme controller of Rudra.

October 15, 2004

or in your opinion, two without a third...

October 15, 2004

it is true that brahma addresses shiva as the creator, maintainer and annihalator of the cosmic manifestation.

it is true that brahma addresses Shiva as the Supreme Brahman.

but later on in that same story regarding Daksha's sacrifice, the following confirm the identity of Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Firstly, Lord Shiva explains who is superior:

SB 4.7.29: Lord Shiva said: My dear Lord, my mind and consciousness are always fixed on Your lotus feet, which, as the source of all benediction and the fulfillment of all desires, are worshiped by all liberated great sages because Your lotus feet are worthy of worship. With my mind fixed on Your lotus feet, I am no longer disturbed by persons who blaspheme me, claiming that my activities are not purified. I do not mind their accusations, and I excuse them out of compassion, just as You exhibit compassion toward all living entities.

Lord Brahma himself:

SB 4.7.31: Lord Brahma said: My dear Lord, Your personality and eternal form cannot be understood by any person who is trying to know You through the different processes of acquiring knowledge. Your position is always transcendental to the material creation, whereas the empiric attempt to understand You is material, as are its objectives and instruments.

and the Gandharvas say:

SB 4.7.43: The Gandharvas said: Dear Lord, all the demigods, including Lord Shiva, Lord Brahma, Indra and Marici and the great sages, are all only differentiated parts and parcels of Your body. You are the Supreme Almighty Great; the whole creation is just like a plaything for You. We always accept You as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and we offer our respectful obeisances unto You.

So Lord Shiva is a differentiated part and parcel of Vishnu's body.

Lord Vishnu himself says:

SB 4.7.50: Lord Vishnu replied: Brahma, Lord Shiva and I are the supreme cause of the material manifestation. I am the Supersoul, the self sufficient witness. But impersonally there is no difference between Brahma, Lord Shiva and Me.

1) In terms of causing the material manifestation, Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu are all the supreme cause

2) In terms of personal realisation, Vishnu is superior for he is the supersoul, the self sufficient witness.

3) In terms of impersonal realisation, there is no difference but that is only because there is no difference between anything in the impersonal conception.

SB 4.7.54: The Lord continued: One who does not consider Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva or the living entities in general to be separate from the Supreme, and who knows Brahman, actually realizes peace; others do not.

The key to this verse is that one must treat all living entities as divine since they are all parts and parcels of God. This does not mean that one should worship all souls as God. It means that in one's actions one should not treat souls differently, because they are all divine. They are all expansions of Vishnu and his energies.

Ganeshprasad · October 15, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Re

(I accept what Brahma says. And as Brahma expands on this point in the Brahma Samhita, there is no difference between Lord Vishnu and Lord Shiva in their original positions, but still Lord Shiva is different from Lord Vishnu. The example is given that the milk in curd is not different from the original milk from which it was made. )

(Yes, I accept what Brahma says and to elaborate:

BS 5.45: Just as milk is transformed into curd by the action of acids, but yet the effect curd is neither same as, nor different from, its cause, viz., milk, so I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whom the state of Shambhu is a transformation for the performance of the work of destruction.)

(In other words, Govinda is the personality that Brahma refers to who expands to create, maintain and annihalate the cosmic manifestation. The self-realised soul can see the presence of the Lord in everyone, especially the spiritual master. Since Lord Shiva is the spiritual master of the universe, Brahma treats him like God. We are all taught to treat Guru as good as God, since he is the medium. Also, Shiva is the divine halo of the Supreme Lord, so one can understand when Brahma prays to him as the Supreme Lord. This is not say that Brahma has no knowledge of the source of the divine halo, as confirmed in the Brahma Samhita.)

1.You say, you accept what Brahma is saying, but then you try and disqualify it, by quoting from another source, I ask you again if you accept Bhagvad puran as spotless why don’t you accept as it is?

2.supreme Brahman is one without a second, there is nothing beyond that, so tell me where from another ingredient spring from to make this transformation? The verse says they are one but different just as milk and curd are, so what does that prove?

Lord Shiva is always beloved of Uma, just as Krishna is to Radha or Ram is to Sita. You have no problem accepting Ram As Krishna, for although they are one they are different.

3. You forget one thing it is Lord Vishnu who is Spiritual Master of Lord Brahma, so does this mean you are now going to think other way round? I do not think so.

Re

(Now, you answer my question, do you agree with the following statements from Brahma and Shiva respectively?

Quote 1: BS 5.43 - Brahma says: Above Mahesh Dham is Hari-Dhama, and above them ALL is located Krsna's realm of Goloka. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, who has allotted Lord Shiva and the devis the authority to rule their respective graded realms.

Where is the problem in that, lord shiva also reside in crematorium

Karpur gauram karunaa avataaram,

Sansaar saaram bhujgendra haaram,

Sadaa vasantam hridayaarvinde,

Bhavam Bhavaani sahitam namaami 1

I bow to that camphor-hued, white complexioned

(Lord Shiva), who is Incarnation of compassion,

Who is the very essence of (consciousness; the

Knowing principle) of life (of the embodied soul);

Who wears snakes as garlands, whose eternal abode

is in the heart of the devotee, I bow to Him (Lord

Shiva) and His consort Bhavaani (Uma or Parvati).

Brahma also said this

SB 4.6/45 O most auspicious lord, you have ordained the heavenly planets, the spiritual Vaikuṇṭha planets and the impersonal Brahman sphere as the respective destinations of the performers of auspicious activities. Similarly, for others, who are miscreants, you have destined different kinds of hells which are horrible and ghastly. Yet sometimes it is found that their destinations are just the opposite. It is very difficult to ascertain the cause of this.

Quote 2: SB 4.24.43: Shiva says: Lord Krishna you are also the supreme controller of Rudra.

Get this in prospective he says you are controller of ego which is known as Rudra.

Lord Shiva did not say you are my controller, and even if he said that it would not matter

Jai Shree Krishna

Ganeshprasad · October 15, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Re

(it is true that brahma addresses shiva as the creator, maintainer and annihalator of the cosmic manifestation.

it is true that brahma addresses Shiva as the Supreme Brahman.)

But you think his addressing is fake or Brahma is lying.

And Prajapati also said the same but that does not matter does it?

Lord Vishnu also declared the one ness of the three, after the Daksha’s sacrifice.

It is true Lord Shiva Praises Lord Vishnu or Brahma or Vice Versa.

But then Lord Krishna says the same in other places, which you brush it off as lila,

This way we can go on and on and on

Jai Shree Krishna

October 16, 2004

Re: "1.You say, you accept what Brahma is saying, but then you try and disqualify it, by quoting from another source, I ask you again if you accept Bhagvad puran as spotless why don’t you accept as it is?"

SB 4.6.42: Lord Brahma said: My dear Lord Shiva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way.

As I have said countless times before, Brahma addresses shiva as the controller of the material manifestation. Correct. Brahma is combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, since he destroys it and allows it to manifest again. I accept. Shiva is also Supreme Brahman beyond cosmic manifestation, since he is a transformation of Govinda (Param-brahman) for the performance of the work of destruction.

SB 4.6.43: My dear lord, you create this cosmic manifestation, maintain it, and annihilate it by expansion of your personality, exactly as a spider creates, maintains and winds up its web.

He creates manifested things through shivalingam, he maintains through shakti, he annihalates through his dance of destruction. Again, I accept.

Re: "2.supreme Brahman is one without a second, there is nothing beyond that, so tell me where from another ingredient spring from to make this transformation? The verse says they are one but different just as milk and curd are, so what does that prove? You have no problem accepting Ram As Krishna, for although they are one they are different."

Do not try to limit Supreme Brahman by saying he can't transform himself. In one sense everything (brahman) is God and his energies. However, we are discussing about God himself, Parabrahman. Milk and curd are one and different, but where does curd come from? Milk. Where does Shiva come from? Krishna. That is the point Brahma makes. As for Rama, Rama is Vishnu-tattva. Shiva is Shiva-tattva. Rama is as opulent as Krishna, but he doesn't display his full opulence in his form as Rama. In contrast, Shiva is not a form of Krishna, he is the divine halo of Krishna. Shiva is very opulent, but He doesn't display full opulence for he is not as opulent as Krishna. As a plenary portion of Krishna, he is limited to that portion.

"3. You forget one thing it is Lord Vishnu who is Spiritual Master of Lord Brahma, so does this mean you are now going to think other way round? I do not think so."

If you want me to go through guru-tattva with you, then fine. One can have many siksha gurus. Brahma is formally the disciple of Vishnu (diksha guru), but he has many siksha gurus, such as Lord Shiva.

Don;t change the point, do you accept BS 5.43, the specific sentence:

Govinda has allotted Lord Shiva and the devis the authority to rule their respective graded realms.

Do you accept Brahma's statement that Shiva gets his authority from Krishna?

October 16, 2004

Jai Shree Krishna,

"But you think his addressing is fake or Brahma is lying.

And Prajapati also said the same but that does not matter does it?

Lord Vishnu also declared the one ness of the three, after the Daksha’s sacrifice.

It is true Lord Shiva Praises Lord Vishnu or Brahma or Vice Versa.

But then Lord Krishna says the same in other places, which you brush it off as lila,

This way we can go on and on and on"

As for Brahma, I accept what he says as the truth, as explained in post above.

Now Prajapati:

8.7.21: The prajapatis said: O greatest of all demigods, Mahadeva, Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet.

The Supersoul is Vishnu, but can be accessed via Shiva, for he is Vishnu's direct representative. The Vedas explains:

patim vishvasyatmeshvaram shashvatam. shivam acyutam - The Supersoul can also be called as or addressed as Maheshvara, Shiva and Acyuta.

8.7.22: O lord, you are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire universe because you are its ruler. Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are also the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship.

One can attain impersonal liberation through Shiva because Shiva can undertake the universal form, as explained by Krishna: bg 9.4 In My impersonal feature I pervade this entire universe

8.7.23: O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Vishnu and Maheshvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.

Shiva is self-effulgent (the divine halo of Krishna). Shiva is supreme lord of the material world. Shiva does create the material world through shivalingam.

8.7.24: You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, impersonal Brahman, which is originally Parabrahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation.

Shiva causes all things to manifest, he is self-effulgent, he is impersonal Brahman. originally that impersonal brahman is parabrahman (Krsna).

Now Lord Vishnu's declaration:

SB 4.7.50: Lord Vishnu replied: Brahma, Lord Shiva and I are the supreme cause of the material manifestation. I am the Supersoul, the self sufficient witness. But impersonally there is no difference between Brahma, Lord Shiva and Me.

Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu are all supreme cause. Factually, Vishnu is the Supersoul, but if one desires impersonal liberation, then there is no difference between them.

...or you maybe referring to this declaration from Vishnu:

SB 4.7.54: The Lord continued: One who does not consider Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva or the living entities in general to be separate from the Supreme, and who knows Brahman, actually realizes peace; others do not.

Here, Vishnu is talking about all living entities. They are not separate from Vishnu. they are all dependent on Him.

As for Lord Krishna in Mahabharata:

The blessed Vishnu said: "I salute Mahadeva. Salutations to Thee. O Thou that art eternal origin of all things. The Rishis say that Thou art the Lord of the Vedas.

Shiva is eternal, and he is the origin of all things. Things are manifest. Brahman is not manifest. Krishna prays to Lord Shiva, but then we are taught to pray to Surya every morning, not because he is Supreme Lord, but because he provides us with every material thing in our daily life. If one prays to Shiva to get protection from material problems, or to help one to realise the supreme that is fine.

It's not going on and on...if one wants to accuse Shiva (or Brahma in the Brahma Samhita) of lying when they say the following then fine:

Shiva:

SB 4.24.44: Please be merciful upon me and show me that form, for only that form worshiped by the devotees can perfectly satisfy all the demands of the senses.

NOTE: only Krsna's form can satisfy the demands of a devotee's spiritual senses.

SB 4.24.58: My dear Lord, Your lotus feet are the cause of all auspicious things and the destroyer of all the contamination of sin. I therefore beg Your Lordship to bless me by the association of Your devotees

NOTE: Shiva is all auspicious, so he prays to Krsna to keep him that way, because Krsna is the source of all auspicious things.

SB 4.24.61: Although You are never disturbed by such changes and alterations, the living entities are disturbed by them, and therefore they find the cosmic manifestation to be different or separated from You. My Lord, You are always independent, and I can clearly see this fact.

NOTE: Shiva says Krsna is always independent (even independent of Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva trinity)

SB 4.24.62: It is stated both in the Vedas and in the shastras that are corollaries of the Vedas, and indeed everywhere, that it is only You who are to be worshiped. That is the expert version of all the Vedas.

NOTE: only Krsna is to be worshipped.

SB 4.24.63: My dear Lord, You are the only Supreme Person.

NOTE: the ONLY supreme person. Shiva can not therefore also be the only supreme person.

SB 4.24.68: My dear Lord, all actually learned persons know You as the Supreme Brahman and the Supersoul. Although the entire universe is afraid of Lord Rudra, who ultimately annihilates everything, for the learned devotees You are the fearless destination of all.

NOTE: Shiva specifically says 'actually learned', for there are some so-called learned people who would suggest otherwise.

SB 4.24.73: We chanted these prayers in praise of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and became completely free from all ignorance. Thus we were able to create different types of living entities.

NOTE: Shiva had to chant this in order to become free from ignorance, also his power to create came from praying to Krsna.

Hare Krishna

Ganeshprasad · October 16, 2004

Jai Ganesh

SB 4.6.42: Lord Brahma said: My dear Lord Shiva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way.

Re

(As I have said countless times before, Brahma addresses shiva as the controller of the material manifestation. Correct. Brahma is combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, since he destroys it and allows it to manifest again. I accept. Shiva is also Supreme Brahman beyond cosmic manifestation, since he is a transformation of Govinda (Param-brahman) for the performance of the work of destruction. )

Your acceptance of Lord Shiva Supreme Brahman is enough to understand What Krishna says I am Shankara amongst Rudra. Supreme Brahman is one without a second, therefore no matter how much twist you put in your argument, they are one.

SB 4.6.43: My dear lord, you create this cosmic manifestation, maintain it, and annihilate it by expansion of your personality, exactly as a spider creates, maintains and winds up its web.

Re

(He creates manifested things through shivalingam, he maintains through shakti, he annihalates through his dance of destruction. Again, I accept.)

Wonderful and this is what Krishna says in gita, describing brahman( 13.13) and then he says

Undivided, yet appears as if divided in beings; He, the object of knowledge, is the creator, sustainer, and destroyer of (all) beings. (13.17)

Re

(Do not try to limit Supreme Brahman by saying he can't transform himself.)

I have no reason to, if the supreme Brahman is transformed with added ingredient he has become some thing more than before, are there two Brahman now? How can the supreme Brahman who transformed suddenly become less? Brahman is one without a second the wise know him by different names.

Re

( In one sense everything (brahman) is God and his energies. However, we are discussing about God himself, Parabrahman. Milk and curd are one and different, but where does curd come from? Milk. Where does Shiva come from? Krishna. That is the point Brahma makes. As for Rama, Rama is Vishnu-tattva. Shiva is Shiva-tattva. Rama is as opulent as Krishna, but he doesn't display his full opulence in his form as Rama. In contrast, Shiva is not a form of Krishna, he is the divine halo of Krishna. Shiva is very opulent, but He doesn't display full opulence for he is not as opulent as Krishna. As a plenary portion of Krishna, he is limited to that portion.)

Krishna Bhakta will say what you are saying and a Shiva Bhakta will say different.

There is only one supreme tattva.

Re

(If you want me to go through guru-tattva with you, then fine. One can have many siksha gurus. Brahma is formally the disciple of Vishnu (diksha guru), but he has many siksha gurus, such as Lord Shiva.)

No, no, have a look at the point you were making.

Re

(Don;t change the point, do you accept BS 5.43, the specific sentence:

Govinda has allotted Lord Shiva and the devis the authority to rule their respective graded realms.)

SB 4.6/45 O most auspicious lord, you have ordained the heavenly planets, the spiritual Vaikuṇṭha planets and the impersonal Brahman sphere as the respective destinations of the performers of auspicious activities. Similarly, for others, who are miscreants, you have destined different kinds of hells which are horrible and ghastly. Yet sometimes it is found that their destinations are just the opposite. It is very difficult to ascertain the cause of this.

Brahma is contradicting, In Bhagvad he says one thing. Now samhita even if one accept as Brahma puran later day addition, is saying some thing different. As I say I have no problem accepting both, since the lord is being praised, I accept all the statement even the contradictory ones. Every thing is not simply black and white there are things well beyond my imagination, I will reserve my judgment if and when I meet my maker, nothing I have heard from you has changed the way I perceive things, infact our discussion has if any thing cemented my faith even more, that the mukand priya shiva, are but one expect of the same supreme lord.

Jai Shree Krishna

Ganeshprasad · October 16, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Faking or not you have made a lot of points, using your interpretation of the verses, i will not be able to do justice answering them, more i discuss i find my self trying to discuss against Krishna that is not my goal for he is my worsipble Lord.

I will take a break and enjoy the Navratri festival.

Ambe Mat Ki Jai

Jai Shree Krishna

October 17, 2004

I repeat a sloka from Sri Brahma Samhita (which you only referred to). Friend, arguments take one away from God. But contemplation of sacred scriptures brings God nearer to us. So, contemplate.

Book 1 TEXT 8

niyatih sa rama devi

tat-priya tad-vasam tada

tal-lingam bhagavan sambhur

jyoti-rupah sanatanah

ya yonih sapara saktih

kamo bijam mahad hareh

WORD FOR WORD

The goddess, the regulator; the spiritual potency of Him; beloved of Him; under the control of lingam—bhagavan sambhuh-- jyotih-rupah-- eternal; that yonih is potency (saktih ), the desire; the seed; and mahat--the faculty of cognition of the Supreme Lord Hareh.

Devi is the desire, the seed, and the faculty of cognition of Hari – the Lord of the Universe. And Sakti – the regulator (Niyati) is under the control of lingam rupi eternal Bhagwan Shambhu. She is the potency of supreme Lord Hareh.

Now, friend ask yourself: Which person will entrust one’s potency -- the desire, the seed, and the faculty of cognition (Devi in short) to another man called Saktiman?

Just for this Vichara assume and say to yourself: “Devi is my power of cognition, my desire, and my seed. I entrust Her control to Saktiman. I am the Lord of the Universe”.

October 17, 2004

********Shiva is eternal, ----- Krishna prays to Lord Shiva, but then we are taught to pray to Surya every morning, not because he is Supreme Lord, -----.************

You beat everyone hollow.

WE pray everyday to Surya but He is not the Supreme. And actually we are superior to Surya. Similarly Krishna prays to Shiva but He is actually the Lord of Shiva.

October 17, 2004

Though it is like 'Puja of Ganga Mata with water of Ganga Mata'

Uma-Mahesvar, who is OM, please accept these on the occassion of Navaratri.

Who is Aditi?

HYMN LXXXIX. Visvedevas.

1. MAY powers auspicious come to us from every side, never deceived, unhindered, and victorious, That the Gods ever may be with us for our gain, our guardians day by day unceasing in their care.

2 May the auspicious favour of the Gods be ours, on us descend the bounty of the righteous Gods. The friendship of the Gods have we devoutly sought: so may the Gods extend our life that we may live.

7 The Maruts, Sons of Prani, borne by spotted steeds, moving in glory, oft visiting holy rites, Sages whose tongue is Agni, brilliant as the Sun,-hither let all the Gods for our protection come.

10 Aditi is the heaven, Aditi is mid-air, Aditi is the Mother and the Sire and Son. Aditi is all Gods, Aditi five-classed men, Aditi all that hath been born and shall be born

Note: Vaishnava Puranas proclaim that tongue of Visnu is Agni. In Rig Veda, it is said that Maruts are sages, borne of Prisni, whose tongue is Agni.

Aditi is mother of Adityas -- the wise ordainer of the Universe. And then Aditi (a being without a second -- Mother) is all: the heaven, the earth, the father, the son etc.

HYMN XLIII. Rudra.

1 WHAT shall we sing to Rudra, strong, most bounteous, excellently wise,

That shall be dearest to his heart?

2

That Aditi may grant the grace of Rudra to our folk, our kine,

Our cattle and our progeny;

Note: Aditi grants the grace of Rudra.

Who is Rudra?

Yajur Veda: iv. 5. 9.

a ----------.

p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods

Note: Very clear. Rudra is the soul of all – even the Gods. Some people say He is material. How then He is the soul of Gods?

Book 6 HYMN XLIX. Visvedevas

10 Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father.

Him great and lofty, blissful, un-decaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us.

Note: Un-decaying, father of the universe, who is honored with these songs.

Rig Veda 7.46.2

To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call.

Note: Self dependent God. What does it mean?

RV HYMN CLXIV. Visvedevas.

1. OF this benignant Priest, with eld grey-coloured, the brother midmost of the three is lightning. The third is he whose back with oil is sprinkled. Here I behold the Chief with seven male children.

2 Seven to the one-wheeled chariot yoke the Courser; bearing seven names the single Courser draws it. Three-naved the wheel is, sound and undecaying, whereon are resting all these worlds of being.

13 Upon this five-spoked wheel revolving ever all living creatures rest and are dependent.

Its axle, heavy-laden, is not heated: the nave from ancient time remains unbroken.

14 The wheel revolves, unwasting, with its felly: ten draw it, yoked to the far-stretching car-pole. The Sun's eye moves encompassed by the region: on him dependent rest all living creatures.

46 They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, and heavenly nobly-winged Garutman.

To what is One, sages give many a title they call it Agni, Yama, Matarisvan.

48 Twelve are the fellies, and the wheel is single; three are the naves. What man hath understood it? Therein are set together spokes three hundred and sixty, which in nowise can be loosened.

Note: Upon this five-spoked wheel revolving ever all living creatures rest and are dependent. Its axle, heavy-laden, is not heated: the nave from ancient time remains unbroken.

Twelve are the fellies, and the wheel is single; three are the naves.

Please note that the wheel is one. But “the Courser; bearing seven names the single Courser draws it” So, there is a single courser who bears seven names.

Are these seven names the name of the Adityas? And who is the single courser? Is it Manyu?

Yajur Veda i. 8. 6.

a -------

d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

e The mole is thy beast, O Rudra; rejoice in it.

f This is thy portion, O Rudra, with thy sister Ambika; rejoice in it.

g -------

The god Tryambaka;

That he may make us prosperous,

That he may increase our wealth,

That he may make us rich in cattle,

That he may embolden us.

i To Tryambaka we make offering,

The fragrant, increaser of prosperity;

Like a cucumber from its stem,

From death may I be loosened, not from immortality.

k This is thy portion, O Rudra; rejoice in it; with it for food, do thou go away beyond the Mujavants.

l With unstrung bow, thy club in thy hand, clad in skins.

Note: Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas.

9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard.

10 For these songs have spread abroad the fame of human kind, the Bull Brhaspati and Soma's brotherhood.

11 For these songs, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

14 With hymns of praise we sing him who is throned as Lord over these fearless tribes, the Self-resplendent One. We praise Night's youthful Lord benevolent to men, the foeless One, the free, with all celestial Dames.

Note: On account of these songs (Rig Veda) the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

---- the Self-resplendent One. We ------- the free, with all celestial Dames (Gopishwara?)

.

Book 1 HYMN LXXII. Agni.

1. THOUGH holding many gifts for men, he humbleth the higher powers of each wise ordainer. Agni is now the treasure-lord of treasures, for ever granting all immortal bounties.

2 The Gods infallible all searching found not him, the dear Babe who still is round about us. Worn weary, following his track, devoted, they reached the lovely highest home of Agni.

------

4 Making them known to spacious earth and heaven, the holy Ones revealed the powers of Rudra.

Note: He humbles the higher powers of each wise ordainer. Searching for Him God’s reached the highest home of Agni and there holy Ones revealed the powers of Rudra.

In highest home of Agni only powers of Rudra are revealed.

Who is Manyu?

HYMN LXXXII. Manyu.

1. HE who hath reverenced thee, Manyu, destructive bolt, breeds for himself forthwith all conquering energy. Arya and Dasa will we conquer with thine aid, with thee the Conqueror, with conquest conquest-sped.

2 Manyu was Indra, yea, the God, was Manyu, Manyu was Hotar, Varuna, Jatavedas.

The tribes of human lineage worship Manyu. Accordant with thy fervour, Manyu, guard us.

3 -----

4 For thou art, Manyu, of surpassing vigour, fierce, queller of the foe, and self-existent,

Shared by all, victorious, subduer: vouchsafe to us superior strengith in battles.,

------

Note: Manyu is self existent and shared by all. Manyu was Indra.

Book 10 HYMN LXXXIV. Manyu.

1. BORNE on with thee, O Manyu girt by Maruts, let our brave men, impetuous, bursting forward, March on, like flames of fire in form, exulting, with pointed arrows, sharpening their weapons.

2 Flashing like fire, be thou, O conquering Manyu, invoked, O Victor, as our army's leader. Slay thou our foes, distribute their possessions: show forth thy vigour, scatter those who hate us.

Who is Indra?

Book 10 HYMN LXXIII. Indra.

1. THOU wast born mighty for victorious valour, exulting, strongest, full of pride and courage. There, even there, the Maruts strengthened Indra when his most rapid Mother stirred the Hero.

-----

10 When others call him offspring of the Courser, my meaning is that Mighty Power produced him. He came from Manyu and remained in houses: whence he hath sprung is known to Indra only.

---------

Note: Indra came from Manyu, another name of Siva.

Please note: Earlier we have seen that the one single wheel is yoked to a courser who assumes seven names. In this verse it is said that Indra is son of courser and who is “Mighty power”.

Rig Veda Book 6 HYMN XIII. Indra.

1. INDRA, when Soma juices flow, makes his mind pure and meet for lauds. He gains the power that brings success, for great is he.

20 That mind of Rudra, fresh and strong, moves conscious in the ancient ways, With reference whereto the wise have ordered this.

Note: Now it is clear that Indra is the mind of Rudra.

Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XII. Indra.

14 Aditi also hath brought forth a hymn for Indra, Sovran Lord: The work of sacrifice for help is glorified.

27 When Visnu, through thine energy, strode wide those three great steps of his, Then thy two beautiful Bay Steeds carried thee on.

28 ----------------------

Note: Visnu through Indra’s energy took wide strides and formed the quarters. Yes, Rudra’s Mind only creates Visnu.

Book 1 HYMN CI. Indra.

-----

5 He who is Lord of the entire world that moves and breathes, who for the Brahman first before all found the Cows; Indra who cast the Dasyus down beneath his feet,-him girt by Maruts we invoke to be our Friend.

7 Refulgent in the Rudras' region he proceeds, and with the Rudras through the wide space speeds the Dame

Note: Indra remains refulgent in the Rudras' region, and with the Rudras through the wide space speeds the Dame

Note: Indra first came to know about Brahman. This is mentioned in Keno Upanishad where Parvati first reveals the secret of Brahman to Indra. It is Durga alone who can open the gates of knowledge.

Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XV. Indra.

1. SING forth to him whom many men invoke, to him whom many laud. Invite the powerful Indra with your songs of praise.

2 -----

9 Visnu, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise: In thee the Maruts' company have great delight.

-------------

Note: Visnu sings Indra’s praise

Book 10 HYMN CXTII. Indra.

1. THE Heavens and the Earth accordant with all Gods encouraged graciously that vigorous might of his. When he came showing forth his majesty and power, he drank of Soma juice and waxed exceeding strong.

2 This majesty of his, Visnu extols and lauds, making the stalk that gives the meath flow forth with might

Note: Visnu extols and lauds majesty of Indra

Who is Visnu?

Book 5 HYMN LXXXVII. Maruts.

1. To Visnu, to the Mighty whom the Maruts follow let your hymns born in song go forth, Evayamarut; To the impetuous, strong band, adorned with bracelets, that rushes on in joy and ever roars for vigour.

2 They who with might were manifest, and who willingly by their own knowledge told it forth, Evayamarut. Maruts, this strength of yours no wisdom comprehendeth: through their gifts' greatness they are moveless as the mountains.

3 Who by the psalm they sing are heard, from lofty heaven, the strong, the brightly shining Ones, Evayamarut; In whose abode there is no mightier one to move them, whose lightnings are as fires, who urge the roaring rivers.

4 He of the Mighty Stride forth strode, Evayamarut, out of the spacious dwelling-place, their home in common. When he, himself, hath yoked his emulous strong horses on heights, he cometh forth, joy-giving, with the Heroes.

Note: Is Visnu Evayamarut? I do not know.

Book 1 HYMN CLV. Visnu-Indra.

1. To the great Hero, him who sets his mind thereon, and Visnu, praise aloud in song your draught of juice,--

----------

3 These offerings increase his mighty manly strength: he brings both Parents down to share the genial flow. He lowers, though a son, the Father's highest name; the third is that which is high in the light of heaven.

6 He, like a rounded wheel, hath in swift motion set his ninety racing steeds together with the four. Developed, vast in form, with those who sing forth praise, a youth, no more a child, he cometh to our call.

Note: It is clear that He is a Son who lowers the Father’s highest name.

And, here the reference to the one wheel is seen again.

So, Visnu has a birth, like Indra has a birth from the courser – Manyu.

Book 1 HYMN CLVI. Visnu

1. FAR-SHINING, widely famed, going thy wonted way, fed with the oil, be helpful. Mitra-like, to us. So, Visnu, e'en the wise must swell thy song of praise, and he who hath oblations pay thee solemn rites.

2 He who brings gifts to him -----------, Who tells the lofty birth of him the Lofty One, shall verily surpass in glory e'en his peer.

3 Him have ye satisfied, singers, as well as ye know, primeval germ of Order even from his birth.

Note: Again we see that Visnu is born. And the birth is a lofty one.

HYMN XCVI. Soma Pavamana

1. IN forefront of the cars forth goes the Hero, the Leader, winning spoil: his host rejoices. Soma endues his robes of lasting colours, and blesses, for his friends, their calls on Indra.

5 Father of holy hymns Soma flows onward, the Father of the earth, Father of heaven: Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the Father who begat Indra and Visnu.

Note: So, Visnu has a father. “the Father who begat Indra and Visnu”

Book 4 HYMN III. Agni.

1. WIN, to assist you, Rudra, Lord of worship, Priest of both worlds, effectual

Sacrificer, Agni, invested with his golden colours, before the thunder strike and lay you senseless.

6 What, when thou blazest on the lesser altars, what to the mighty Wind who comes to bless us, True, circumambient? what to Earth, O Agni, what wilt thou say to man-destroying Rudra?

7 How to great Pusan who promotes our welfare,- to honoured Rudra what, who gives oblations? What sin of ours to the far-striding Visnu, what, Agni, wilt thou tell the Lofty Arrow.

Note: Visnu is the lofty arrow.

Yajur Veda vi. 2. 3.

The Asuras had three citadels; the lowest was of iron, then there was one of silver, then one of gold. The gods could not conquer them; they sought to conquer them by siege; therefore they say--both those who know thus and those who do not--'By siege they conquer great citadels.' They made ready an arrow, Agni as the point, Soma as the socket, Visnu as the shaft. They said, 'Who shall shoot it?' [1] 'Rudra', they said, let him shoot it.'

Note: Confirmed again: Visnu is the lofty arrow.

So, Indra is born to free waters (the Goddesses) from the clutches of Vrita by anger of Rudra. Then Visnu is borne to destroy the Asuras.

But it is one courser who draws the wheel assuming seven wheels. As we have seen before and I repeat it here.

RV HYMN CLXIV. Visvedevas.

1. Here I behold the Chief with seven male children.

2 --- bearing seven names the single Courser draws it. Three-naved the wheel is, sound and undecaying, whereon are resting all these worlds of being.

Yoga Vashishta

In Yoga Vashishta (MahaRamayana), the Muni tells Rama that after the interval of 34560 million human years Isana, Jyotirupa, Avyaya, Sambhu (all names of Siva) starts his work. Sambhu is one consciousness. When Sambhu is still and blissfull (when His Prakriti is still) He is Krishna.

When there is kinetic movement within this consciousness (movement of His Prakriti or Durga), Visnu is borne and the the Universe appears.

First of all this Sambhu creates Hiranyagarbha, (by a slight movement of thought) also known as Visvarupi (Visnu) or Mahan or Bhootagraja which means the first thing in the world. Vedanthis call his Hiranyagarbha as Sutratma. Yogasastra calls it ‘Mahan’ or ‘AJA’. The Sankhyasastra calls it Vicitrarupa, Visvatma and Ekasara.

Hiranyagarbha prepared all the things forming this world and occupied those himself. Thus he himself turned into many forms and hence got the name Visvarupa and Bahurupa. He generates himself in innumerable forms and becomes visible. This change from invisible to visible or unmanifest to manifest is named as Vidyasarga.

Hiranyagarbha gives rise to Ahankara (the I sense the conditioned Chit) and Virat Prajapati (Brahma). This process is called as Avidyasarga. From Ahankara all the microscopic things evolved ( Suksma-Bhuth-Sristi).

Then arose five Mahabhutas-Akas, Vayu, Teja, Apah, Prthvi and its subjects namely Sabda, Sparssa, Rupa, Rasa, Gandha. After this the last of fifth generation evolved with five sense organs and the mind.

At the time of dissolution, Lord Himself in the form of Rudra absorbs everything within Himself.

October 17, 2004

"Your acceptance of Lord Shiva Supreme Brahman is enough to understand What Krishna says I am Shankara amongst Rudra. Supreme Brahman is one without a second, therefore no matter how much twist you put in your argument, they are one."

ok, but i shall pray to the source of Shiva, Krishna as the Supreme Lord. Not the other way round. if you want to do the more indirect process, that's your choice.

"Wonderful and this is what Krishna says in gita, describing brahman( 13.13) and then he says

Undivided, yet appears as if divided in beings; He, the object of knowledge, is the creator, sustainer, and destroyer of (all) beings. (13.17)"

Yes, Krishna is the original - the others are divided appearances

"I have no reason to, if the supreme Brahman is transformed with added ingredient he has become some thing more than before, are there two Brahman now? How can the supreme Brahman who transformed suddenly become less? Brahman is one without a second the wise know him by different names."

Supreme Brahman has no added ingredient. Curd has no added ingredient from milk. it is a transformation.

Now Shiva is the transformation. Krishna is the transformer. Shiva is the result of the transformation. Krishna is the source of the transformation.

"Krishna Bhakta will say what you are saying and a Shiva Bhakta will say different.

There is only one supreme tattva."

No shiva bhakta will say shiva tattva is same as vishnu tattva. saivites will also agree that shiva tattva is separate. God has multifarious energies, of which there are three major categories. Spiritual energy - Krishna and his personal expansions. Marginal energy - souls including Shiva, the highest of souls in the marginal energy. Finally, material energy - which is inanimate.

"No, no, have a look at the point you were making"

I have looked, i see no problem

"Govinda has allotted Lord Shiva and the devis the authority to rule their respective graded realms.)

SB 4.6/45 O most auspicious lord, you have ordained the heavenly planets, the spiritual Vaikuṇṭha planets and the impersonal Brahman sphere as the respective destinations of the performers of auspicious activities. Similarly, for others, who are miscreants, you have destined different kinds of hells which are horrible and ghastly. Yet sometimes it is found that their destinations are just the opposite. It is very difficult to ascertain the cause of this."

Srimad Bhagavatam is saying Shiva decides who goes to Vaikuntha, who goes to impersonal brahman and who goes to heaven.

Brahma Samhita says Krishna gives Shiva the authority to rule his realm.

Why is there any contradiction?

Now i repeat, do you agree that Shiva gets his authority from Krishna?

October 17, 2004

"Faking or not you have made a lot of points, using your interpretation of the verses, i will not be able to do justice answering them, more i discuss i find my self trying to discuss against Krishna that is not my goal for he is my worsipble Lord.

I will take a break and enjoy the Navratri festival."

1) you will see that there is no interpretation in the verses by Shiva. He says Krishna is the only form to be worshipped. Simple as that.

2) never mind. we agree to disagree. I'm saying Krishna is source of Shiva. U say Krishna is absolutely identical in every way to Shiva.

3) Have a very auspicious Navratri.

Jai Shree Krishna

October 17, 2004

"WE pray everyday to Surya but He is not the Supreme. And actually we are superior to Surya. Similarly Krishna prays to Shiva but He is actually the Lord of Shiva."

You misunderstand me. Praying is praying. But you have to produce a more specific example. A devotee prays to the Lord. The Lord prays to his sincere devotee. But who is praying in the mood of a devotee? Who is praying in the clearcut attitude that the person he is praying to is the Supreme Lord of all material, spiritual worlds, all that is manifest and unmanifest, as the onl original person, as the only perosn to be worshipped? Lord Shiva is praying to Krishna in that clear mood in Srimad Bhagavatam.

October 17, 2004

"1. MAY powers auspicious come to us from every side, never deceived, unhindered, and victorious, That the Gods ever may be with us for our gain, our guardians day by day unceasing in their care.

2 May the auspicious favour of the Gods be ours, on us descend the bounty of the righteous Gods. The friendship of the Gods have we devoutly sought: so may the Gods extend our life that we may live......"

and your post goes on...please get back to me with one quote saying that Shiva is:

1) supreme controller of both the material and spiritual worlds

2) source of all manifest AND unmanifest things

3) the ONLY original person

4) the only form to be worshipped

5) the only form tht can satisfy a devotee's spiritual senses

....then i may start to agree

October 18, 2004

Prabhupada: No, Vaishnavam Yatha Shambhu: “Amongst the Vaishnavas, Shambhu, Lord Siva, is the greatest Vaishnava.” (Srimad Bhagavatam 12.13.17). So we worship Lord Siva as Vaisnava. We gives respect to Vaisnavas. So why not Lord Siva? Lord Siva is a big Vaisnava. But generally, the devotees of Lord Siva, they take Lord Siva is independent God. That is offensive. If you know that Lord Siva is also a devotee, you can give more respect to Lord Siva. Krsna will be pleased.

If one wants to devote themselves to Shiva, then there is a correct way to do so:

In the Padma Purana, it is said:

aradhananam sarvesam

visnor aradhanam param

tasmat parataram devi

tadiyanam samarcanam

Once, Parvati-devi asked Lord Siva,

"Of all kinds of worship, whose

worship is best?"

Then, Lord Siva told her plainly, "The worship and devotional service of Lord Narayana, Visnu, is the highest."

Then Parvati became a little mortified and disappointed, thinking, "But I

am serving Siva, so I hold a lower position."

Then the next line came - tasmat parataram devi tadiyanam samarcanam.

"But higher than the worship of Narayana is worship of the devotees of Lord Narayana. That is even greater than devotion to the Lord Himself."

Then, Parvati smiled, thinking, "Then I am serving the devotee of the Lord.

Siva is a devotee: vaisnavanam yatha sambhuh. So, I am doing the best thing."

This is also confirrned by Krsna, in the Adi Purana :

ye me bhakta-janah partha

ne me bhaktas ca te janah

mad bhaktanam ca ye bhaktas

te me bhaktatama matah

"Those who worship Me directly are not real devotees; real devotees are those who are devoted to My devotees."

October 18, 2004

"....then i may start to agree"

You disagreeing is a better proposition.

Contemplate, why Hari's power of cognition is under control of Saktiman.

There is no need to quote anything. For blind, day and night are same. You can only believe Bhagavatam and Vishnu Puran but not Rig Veda, Yajur Veda, Upanishads -- all the original uncontaminated Shruti.

But you will get all answers shortly.

October 18, 2004

"You misunderstand me."

You don't understand yourself. In all your posts you contradict yourself again and again.

October 18, 2004

Book 10 HYMN LXXIII. Indra.

1. THOU wast born mighty for victorious valour, exulting, strongest, full of pride and courage. There, even there, the Maruts strengthened Indra when his most rapid Mother stirred the Hero.

-----

10 When others call him offspring of the Courser, my meaning is that Mighty Power produced him. He came from Manyu and remained in houses: whence he hath sprung is known to Indra only.

Note: Indra is Offspring of the courser -- The controller.

Rig Veda Book 6 HYMN XIII. Indra.

1. INDRA, when Soma juices flow, makes his mind pure and meet for lauds. He gains the power that brings success, for great is he.

20 That mind of Rudra, fresh and strong, moves conscious in the ancient ways, With reference whereto the wise have ordered this.

Note: Now it is clear that Indra is the mind of Rudra.

Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XII. Indra.

14 Aditi also hath brought forth a hymn for Indra, Sovran Lord: The work of sacrifice for help is glorified.

27 When Visnu, through thine energy, strode wide those three great steps of his, Then thy two beautiful Bay Steeds carried thee on.

28 ----------------------

Note: Visnu through Indra’s energy took wide strides and formed the quarters.

Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XV. Indra.

1. SING forth to him whom many men invoke, to him whom many laud. Invite the powerful Indra with your songs of praise.

2 -----

9 Visnu, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise: In thee the Maruts' company have great delight.

-------------

Note: Visnu sings Indra’s praise

Book 10 HYMN CXTII. Indra.

1. THE Heavens and the Earth accordant with all Gods encouraged graciously that vigorous might of his. When he came showing forth his majesty and power, he drank of Soma juice and waxed exceeding strong.

2 This majesty of his, Visnu extols and lauds, making the stalk that gives the meath flow forth with might

Note: Visnu extols and lauds majesty of Indra

Visnu lauds Indra. Visnu extols Indra. : Visnu sings Indra’s praise.

And Indra is mind of Rudra, Son of courser.

HYMN LXXXIX. Visvedevas.

10 Aditi is the heaven, Aditi is mid-air, Aditi is the Mother and the Sire and Son. Aditi is all Gods, Aditi five-classed men, Aditi all that hath been born and shall be born

Aditi is mother of Adityas -- the wise ordainer of the Universe. And then Aditi (a being without a second -- Mother) is all: the heaven, the earth, the father, the son etc.

HYMN XLIII. Rudra.

1 WHAT shall we sing to Rudra, strong, most bounteous, excellently wise,

That shall be dearest to his heart?

2 That Aditi may grant the grace of Rudra to our folk, our kine,

Our cattle and our progeny;

Note: And Aditi grants the grace of Rudra.

Rig Veda 7.46.2

To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call.

He through his lordship thinks on beings of the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial sway.

Note: You think that you are real. You are only a thought in Rudra. He thinks of beings of the Earth and the Heavens.

He through his lordship thinks on beings of the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial sway.

Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas.

9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard.

10 For these songs have spread abroad the fame of human kind, the Bull Brhaspati and Soma's brotherhood.

11 For these songs, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

14 With hymns of praise we sing him who is throned as Lord over these fearless tribes, the Self-resplendent One. We praise Night's youthful Lord benevolent to men, the foeless One, the free, with all celestial Dames.

Note: On account of these songs (Rig Veda) the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

All else --- Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu ---- claim and merit praise on account of Him alone.

Sarveshvara

SU III, 3-4

i) 3. On all sides eye, on all sides face,

on all sides arms, on all sides feet,

he, God, the One, creates heaven and earth,

forging them together with arms and wings.

4. He who is source and origin of the Gods,

the Lord of all, Rudra, the mighty sage,

who produced in ancient days the Golden Germ--

may he endow us with purity of mind!

SU V, 13

ii) Without beginning and end is he; in the midst

of chaos he is and brings forth all things.

Creator is he, and sole pervader, of manifold forms.

When a man knows God he is freed from all fetters.

SU VI, 7-9; 16-19

iii) 7. Of lords the Lord Supreme, of kings the King,

of Gods the God, him let us worship--the transcendent

Lord of all worlds and wholly worthy of worship.

8. In him exists neither action nor organ of action;

no one is found his equal or superior to him.

His supreme power is revealed in manifold forms;

inherent to his nature is the working of his strength and wisdom.

9. None in this world is his master, none his cornmander.

He has no distinctive sign; he is the Cause.

Himself unruled, ungenerated, he rules the sense organs.

16. He is the Creator of all, the knower of all things,

the source of the Self, the Knower, the Author of time,

possessor and master of all the qualities, omniscient,

the Lord of both Nature and Spirit, the cause of liberation

from this world's cycle and the bondage of earthly existence.

17. Identical with it, immortal, by nature the Lord,

omnipresent and wise, the guardian and eternal ruler

of the world is he. No other Ground can be found.

18. In him who in days of old created Brahma

and imparted to him the Veda, in this God, who is illumined

by his own intelligence, I take refuge, longing for liberation,

19. In him who is undivided, inactive, peaceful,

irreproachable, free from blemish, the supreme bridge

to immortality, who resembles a fire whose fuel

is wholly consumed.

Maha-Narayana Upanishad

I-7: That alone is Fire: That is Air; That is Sun; That verily is Moon; That alone is shining Stars and Ambrosia. That is Food; That is Water and He is the Lord of creatures.

I-70: The Supreme represented as the ocean has overflown to the whole creation. He has created at first creatures according to the deserts of their various past deeds. He is the ruler of the universe and the munificent giver of gifts to the devotees. He dwells together with Uma (His power giving spiritual illumination) in the hearts of devotees which are holier than other parts of their body (the seat of the Divine) and therefore superior and elevated like a peak and affording protection. The Jiva who is his abode grows to be infinite. He is the Lord who delights the individual souls by guiding according to their deeds and conferring on them fruits of their actions.

II-2: I take refuge in Her, the Goddess Durga, who is fiery in lustre and radiant with ardency, who is the Power belonging to the Supreme who manifests Himself manifoldly, who is the Power residing in actions and their fruits rendering them efficacious (or the Power that is supplicated to by the devotees for the fruition of their work). O Thou Goddess skilled in saving. Thou takest us across difficulties excellently well. Our salutations to Thee.

VIII-1: The Supreme Being, Indra, who is the most excellent Pranava taught in the Vedas, who ensouls the entire universe, who leads the collection of Vedic utterances in Gayatri and other metres standing in their beginning, who is capable of being attained by the worshippers and who is the first in the causal link, taught the contemplative sages the sacred wisdom of the Upanishad, Himself being the subject-matter of them, in order to strengthen them with the power of knowledge. I salute the gods for removing the obstacles in my path to illumination. For the same I also reverence the Manes. The triple regions of Bhuh, Bhuvah and Suvah and the entire Veda are comprised in Om.

XIII-4: Narayana is the Supreme designated as Brahman. Narayana is the highest Self. Narayana is the supreme Light. Narayana is the infinite Self. [Narayana is the most excellent meditator and meditation.]

XV-2: Aditya, the supreme cause of the universe, is the giver of light and water and is the source of all energy. He is denoted by the syllable Om. That form of the sun is Brahman. That is the pervading cause of all. That is water, fire, flavour and ambrosia. The three Vyahritis representing the three worlds and the Pranava representing the cause of the universe denote that Brahman.

Thus by these three the threefold knowledge alone shines. He who is within the sun is the Golden Person

XVI-1: [by these twenty-two names ending with salutations they consecrate the Sivalinga for all] – the Linga which is representative of soma and Surya, and holding which in the hand holy formulas are repeated and which purifies all:

.

XVI-1: [by these twenty-two names ending with salutations they consecrate the Sivalinga for all] – the Linga which are representative of Soma and Surya, and holding which in the hand holy formulas are repeated and which purifies all:

Nidhanapataye Namah !

[salutations to the Lord of the dissolution of the universe !]

Nidhanapataantikaya Namah !

[salutations to the end maker (Yama who is responsible for the death of all creatures) !]

Urdhvaya Namah !

[salutations to the Most High standing at the head of the categories which evolve into the universe !]

Urdhva Lingaya Namah !

[salutations to the principle of Sadasiva embodying the power of Intelligence !]

Hiranyaya Namah !

[salutations to Him, He who is beneficial and charming to creatures !]

Hiranya Lingaya Namah !

[salutations to Him, He who is visualized as the Linga made of gold !]

Suvarnaya Namah !

[salutations to Him, He who is endowed with attractivesplendour !]

Suvarna Lingaya Namah !

[salutations to Him, He who is of the form of Linga made of suvarna (silver) !]

Divyaya Namah !

[salutations to Him, He who is the source of bliss in heaven !]

Divya Lingaya Namah !

Salutations to Him, He who is worshipped as the divineemblem !]

Bhavaya Namah !

[salutations to Him, He who is the source of the cycle of birth and death !]

Bhava Lingaya Namah !

[salutations to Him, He who is worshipped as the Linga byhuman beings !]

Sarvaya Namah !

[salutations to Him, He who is the suppresser of the universeat the time of final dissolution !]

Sarva Lingaya Namah !

[salutations to Him, He who has the shape of the Linga emblem of Sarva, who gives bliss !]

Shivaya Namah !

[salutations to Him, He who is most auspicious !]

Shiva Lingaya Namah !

[salutations to Him, He who has the form of Sivalinga !]

Jvalaya Namah !

[salutations to Him, He who has the form of a flaming splendour !]

Jvala Lingaya Namah !

[salutations to Him, He who has the form of the brilliant Linga !]

Atmaya Namah !

[salutations to Him, He who is the Spirit Atman dwelling in all creatures !]

AtmaLingaya Namah !

[salutations to Him, He who is concealed in the heart of all creatures being their inmost Self !]

Paramaya Namah !

[salutations to Him, He who is unsurpassed !]

Parama Lingaya Namah !

[salutations to Him, He who is the Supreme Lord of bliss and liberation indicated by the Linga emblem !]

XXI-1: May the Supreme who is the ruler of all knowledge, controller of all created beings, the preserver of the Vedas and the one overlord of Hiranyagarbha, be benign to me. I am the Sadasiva described thus and denoted by Pranava.

XXII-1: Salutations again and again to Hiranyabahu [One who has ornaments of gold on the arms or possessing a form having the golden hue], Hiranyavarna [He who is the source of the syllables of the Vedas which are as precious as gold], Hiranyarupa [He who is shining in splendour], Hiranyapati [the Lord of riches wholesome and charming], Ambikapati [the consort of Ambika, the Mother of the universe], Umapati [The master of Uma, Brahma-vidya personified as such], Pasupati [the Lord of all created beings].

XXIII-1: Supreme (Param) Brahman, the Absolute Reality, has become an androgynous Person in the form of Uma-maheshvara, dark blue and reddish brown in hue, absolutely chaste and possessing uncommon eyes. Salutations to Him alone who is the Soul of the universe or whose form is the universe.

XXIV-1: All this verily is Rudra. To Rudra who is such we offer our salutation. We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of all. The universe the created beings and whatever there is manifoldly and profusely created in the past and in the present in the form of the world, all that is indeed this Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

XXV-1: We sing a hymn that confers on us happiness in the highest degree to Rudra who is worthy of praise, who is endowed with the highest knowledge, who rains objects to the worshippers most excellently, who is more powerful and who is dwelling in the heart. Indeed all this is Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

LXVIII-1: Om that is Brahman. Om that is Vayu. Om that is the finite self. Om that is the Supreme Truth. Om that is all. Om that is the multitude of citadels 9the bodies of creatures). Salutations to Him.

LXXIV-1: O Rudra, thou art the binding knot of the breaths and the organs of senses functioning in the body. Enter me as the end-maker of sorrows and increase and protect me by that food which I have taken in.

LXXV-1: Salutations to Rudra, and to Rudra who is Vishnu. Guard me from death.

End of Citation

Yajur Veda i. 8. 6.

a -------

d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

Yajur Veda: iv. 5. 9.

a ----------.

p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods

Finally

No doubt Shri Krishna is the supreme God Head. That is what He says in Gita. No doubt that Krishna is none other than Mahesvara.

yo mam ajam anadim ca vetti loka-mahesvaram

asammudhah sa martyesu sarva-papaih pramucyate

He alone who knows Me as unborn, beginning less, and as Mahesvara, the Supreme Controller of all the worlds, is undeluded among mortals and freed from all sins.

I am an ignorant person. I don’t know why Lord Shiva is called Mahesvara and I do not know why Krishna proclaims Himself to be Mahesvara.

I also do not understand why Upanishad’s state : Narayana is the Supreme Self. But then again say that Rudra “is that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of all”.

Actually, you know, you are just a poser; an imposter. You are just a thought in Rudra’s Mind.

All things are in Rudra’s mind and no where else. And that is why Aditi is Heaven and Earth. Aditi is Sire (Soma) and Son (Adityas). Aditi is the movement of Rudra. And Aditi alone grants the Grace of Rudra (Oh, Sorry, Grace of Krishna).

You only cite one Purana. And you do not understand it is very clear from Ganesh Prasad Ji and your discussions (your mis-discussions of course).

Now go ahead and claim that the Vedas are Tamasic.

These will be too high for you. But a time will come when you also contemplate.

October 19, 2004

"Note: Visnu sings Indra’s praise"

Now, a devotee will sing the praise of God. God will sing the praise of his devotee. For example, we know that Narada is a devotee of Narayana, yet Krishna sings his praise. This is inconclusive and does not have any relevancy to deciding who is Supreme Lord.

"He through his lordship thinks on beings of the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial sway"

I have never doubted Shiva's control over beings of the earth and heaven.

"Note: On account of these songs (Rig Veda) the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise."

again, this is regarding earth and heaven - material dimensions.

") 3. On all sides eye, on all sides face,

on all sides arms, on all sides feet,

he, God, the One, creates heaven and earth,

forging them together with arms and wings.

4. He who is source and origin of the Gods,

the Lord of all, Rudra, the mighty sage,

who produced in ancient days the Golden Germ--

may he endow us with purity of mind!

SU V, 13

ii) Without beginning and end is he; in the midst

of chaos he is and brings forth all things.

Creator is he, and sole pervader, of manifold forms.

When a man knows God he is freed from all fetters.

SU VI, 7-9; 16-19

iii) 7. Of lords the Lord Supreme, of kings the King,

of Gods the God, him let us worship--the transcendent

Lord of all worlds and wholly worthy of worship.

8. In him exists neither action nor organ of action;

no one is found his equal or superior to him.

His supreme power is revealed in manifold forms;

inherent to his nature is the working of his strength and wisdom.

9. None in this world is his master, none his cornmander.

He has no distinctive sign; he is the Cause.

Himself unruled, ungenerated, he rules the sense organs.

16. He is the Creator of all, the knower of all things,

the source of the Self, the Knower, the Author of time,

possessor and master of all the qualities, omniscient,

the Lord of both Nature and Spirit, the cause of liberation

from this world's cycle and the bondage of earthly existence.

17. Identical with it, immortal, by nature the Lord,

omnipresent and wise, the guardian and eternal ruler

of the world is he. No other Ground can be found.

18. In him who in days of old created Brahma

and imparted to him the Veda, in this God, who is illumined

by his own intelligence, I take refuge, longing for liberation,

19. In him who is undivided, inactive, peaceful,

irreproachable, free from blemish, the supreme bridge

to immortality, who resembles a fire whose fuel

is wholly consumed. "

Rudra creates heaven and earth - i agree.

source and origin of the Gods - he creates material world through sivalingam and then the demigods are born.

None in this world is his master, source of liberation from this world...

yes, no one is higher than Shiva in THIS WORLD. He can give impersonal liberation...

the supreme bridge

to immortality

he is the highest means to reahc immortality since he is the highest Vaishnava, the highest devotee of Krishna. We can serve him because it is the best way to please Krishna and thus acheive immortality

October 19, 2004

Maha-Narayana Upanishad

I-70: The Supreme represented as the ocean has overflown to the whole creation. He has created at first creatures according to the deserts of their various past deeds. He is the ruler of the universe and the munificent giver of gifts to the devotees. He dwells together with Uma (His power giving spiritual illumination) in the hearts of devotees which are holier than other parts of their body (the seat of the Divine) and therefore superior and elevated like a peak and affording protection. The Jiva who is his abode grows to be infinite. He is the Lord who delights the individual souls by guiding according to their deeds and conferring on them fruits of their actions.

Note: The Supreme - yes, Shiva is supreme lord of the universe. Shiva gives gifts, he directs people according to past deeds, yes I agree.

XIII-4: Narayana is the Supreme designated as Brahman. Narayana is the highest Self. Narayana is the supreme Light. Narayana is the infinite Self. [Narayana is the most excellent meditator and meditation.]

Note: Narayana is infinite - an attribute only possessed by God.

XVI-1: [by these twenty-two names ending with salutations they consecrate the Sivalinga for all] – the Linga which is representative of soma and Surya, and holding which in the hand holy formulas are repeated and which purifies all:

Note: Shiva creates material manifestation with Shivalinga

XVI-1: [by these twenty-two names ending with salutations they consecrate the Sivalinga for all] – the Linga which are representative of Soma and Surya, and holding which in the hand holy formulas are repeated and which purifies all:

Nidhanapataye Namah !

[salutations to the Lord of the dissolution of the universe !]

Note: Shiva is specifically for destruction

Nidhanapataantikaya Namah !

[salutations to the end maker (Yama who is responsible for the death of all creatures) !]

Urdhvaya Namah !

[salutations to the Most High standing at the head of the categories which evolve into the universe !]

Note: the universe - not all the universes

Divyaya Namah !

[salutations to Him, He who is the source of bliss in heaven !]

Note: heaven - a material planetary system

Sarvaya Namah !

[salutations to Him, He who is the suppresser of the universeat the time of final dissolution !]

Note: destruction

Parama Lingaya Namah !

[salutations to Him, He who is the Supreme Lord of bliss and liberation indicated by the Linga emblem !]

Note: bliss is feature of impersonal liberation - personal liberation contains eternity, unlimited bliss and unlimited knowledge

XXI-1: May the Supreme who is the ruler of all knowledge, controller of all created beings, the preserver of the Vedas and the one overlord of Hiranyagarbha, be benign to me. I am the Sadasiva described thus and denoted by Pranava.

Note: controller of the created beings - not the uncreated beings

XXIII-1: Supreme (Param) Brahman, the Absolute Reality, has become an androgynous Person in the form of Uma-maheshvara, dark blue and reddish brown in hue, absolutely chaste and possessing uncommon eyes. Salutations to Him alone who is the Soul of the universe or whose form is the universe.

Note: yes supreme Krishna has become Shiva to rule the material manifestation

XXIV-1: All this verily is Rudra. To Rudra who is such we offer our salutation. We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of all. The universe the created beings and whatever there is manifoldly and profusely created in the past and in the present in the form of the world, all that is indeed this Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

Note: again, all created things - not the unmanifest things

LXXV-1: Salutations to Rudra, and to Rudra who is Vishnu. Guard me from death.

Note: Rudra, Vishnu and Brahma are all supreme cause of material manifestation.

October 19, 2004

Yajur Veda i. 8. 6.

a -------

d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

Note: Rudra is the strongest, he deosn't give way to pressure or influence. As the purest devotee of Krsna he never strays in his service of controlling the cosmic manifestation.

Yajur Veda: iv. 5. 9.

a ----------.

p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods

Note: Shiva is spiritual master of all gods, so he is present in their heart (Spiritual Master is manifestation of Supersoul)

Finally

No doubt Shri Krishna is the supreme God Head. That is what He says in Gita. No doubt that Krishna is none other than Mahesvara.

yo mam ajam anadim ca vetti loka-mahesvaram

asammudhah sa martyesu sarva-papaih pramucyate

He alone who knows Me as unborn, beginning less, and as Mahesvara, the Supreme Controller of all the worlds, is undeluded among mortals and freed from all sins.

I am an ignorant person. I don’t know why Lord Shiva is called Mahesvara and I do not know why Krishna proclaims Himself to be Mahesvara.

Note: There is no need to be ignorant, just listen to Lord Shiva in Padma Purana, 'Krishna is the highest from to be worshipped'.

I also do not understand why Upanishad’s state : Narayana is the Supreme Self. But then again say that Rudra “is that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of all”.

Note: Rudra, being spiritual master, is also manifestation of Supersoul. Narayana is described as infinite, is Shiva described as infinite?

Narayana Upanishad specifically says 'before Brahma and Shiva, before anything was manifest, there was only Narayana'

All things are in Rudra’s mind and no where else. And that is why Aditi is Heaven and Earth. Aditi is Sire (Soma) and Son (Adityas). Aditi is the movement of Rudra. And Aditi alone grants the Grace of Rudra (Oh, Sorry, Grace of Krishna).

Note: That is because Rudra is compassionate to all fallen souls, so he thinks about them all the time.

Now go ahead and claim that the Vedas are Tamasic.

Note: I never calimed the vedas tamasic

NOW, here are shastra from a range of sources:

The Svetasvatara Upanishad (5.6): “He is the most esoteric aspect hidden in the Upanishads which form the essence of the Vedas. Brahma knows Him as the source of himself as well as the Vedas. The gods like Shiva and the seers of the ancient, like Vamadeva rishi realizing Him, ever became dovetailed in His service and therefore they naturally became immortal.”

GopalaTapani Upanishad (1.22): Sri Krishna is that Supreme Divinity as the Paramount Eternal Reality among all other sentient beings and the Fountain-source of consciousness to all conscious beings. He is the only reality without a second but as a Supersoul dwelling in the cave of the hearts of all beings He rewards them in accordance with their respective actions in life. Those men of intuitive wisdom who serve Him with loving devotion surely attain the highest perfection of life. Whereas those who do not do so never gain this highest beatitude of their lives.

Chandogya Upanishad (3.17.6-7):

“Ghora Angihasa rishi advised his disciple that he should invoke Bhagavan Sri Krishna, the Son of Devakidevi [devakiputra], by repeating this triad thinking as if death is sitting upon his shoulder: ‘Thou art the Indestructible; Thou art the Unchangeable; Thou art the very Substratum that enlivens the entire universe.’”

Bhagavad-gita (10.12-13):

Lord Krishna is the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. He is the primal God, transcendental and original, the unborn and all-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Narada, Asita, Devala, and Vyasa proclaim this.

Krishna is the original Personality, the Godhead. He is the only sanctuary of the manifested material world. He knows everything and is all that is knowable. He is above the material modes. With limitless form, He pervades the whole cosmic manifestation (Bg.11.38).

Krishna is the father of the complete cosmic manifestation, the worshipable chief and spiritual master. No one is equal to Him, nor can anyone be one with Him. He is immeasurable(Bg.11.43).

Srimad Bhagavatam 1.1.1:

“O my Lord, Sri Krishna, son of Vasudeva, O all-pervading Personality of Godhead, I offer my respectful obeisances unto You. I meditate on Lord Sri Krishna because He is the Absolute Truth and the primeval cause of all causes of the creation, sustenance and destruction of the manifested universes. He is directly and indirectly conscious of all manifestations, and He is independent because there is no other cause beyond Him. It is He only who first imparted the Vedic knowledge unto the heart of Brahmaji, the original living being. By Him even the great sages and demigods are placed into illusion... Only because of Him do the material universes, temporarily manifested by the reactions of the three modes of nature, appear factual, although they are unreal. I therefore meditate upon Him, Lord Sri Krishna, who is eternally existent in the transcendental abode, which is forever free from the illusory representations of the material world. I meditate upon Him, for He is the Absolute Truth.”

“Nothing can be said to exist independent of Lord Acyuta--nothing heard or seen, nothing in the past, present or future, nothing moving or unmoving, great or small. He indeed is everything, for He is the Supreme Soul.” (SB.10.46.43)

“I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts. (Bg.10:8)

Brahma-samhita (5.40):

“I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord who is endowed with great power. The glowing effulgence of His transcendental form is the impersonal Brahman, which is absolute, complete and unlimited, and which displays the varieties of countless planets with their different opulences in millions and millions of universes.”

"Goloka Vrindavana-dhama is a place of ever-increasing joy. There is a temple whose pinnacle is made of rubies. In that temple there is a great golden throne inlaid with many jewels. In this way one should meditate on the divine realm of the Supreme Lord, Sri Vrindavana-dhama.” (Gautamiya Tantra 4)

In relation to Lord Shiva:

“A person who is directly surrendered to Lord Krishna, or Vishnu, in unalloyed devotional service is immediately promoted to the spiritual planets. I, Lord Shiva, and other demigods attain these planets only after the destruction of the material world. You are all devotees of the Lord, and as such I appreciate that you are as respectable as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself. I know in this way that the devotees also respect me and that I am dear to them. Thus no one can be as dear to the devotees as I am.”

(SB: 4.24 29-30)

Ramayana (Uttara-Kanda, Doha 45), Lord Rama says “With joined palms I lay before you another secret doctrine: without adoring Sankara (Lord Shiva) man cannot attain devotion to Me.”

Bhagavad-gita (11.15). Therein we find: “Arjuna said: My dear Lord Krishna, I see assembled together in Your [universal] body all the demigods and various other living entities. I see Brahma sitting on the lotus flower as well as Lord Shiva and many sages and divine serpents.”

Brahma-samhita (verse 15). Therein we find it said “The same Maha-Vishnu created [His next expansion of] Vishnu [Garbhodakashayi Vishnu] from His left limb, Brahma, the first progenitor of beings, from His right limb and, from the space between His two eyebrows, Shambhu, the divine masculine manifested halo.”

Skanda Purana, Sri Sanatkumara-samhita 26-35:

Narada: "O Lord, of all mantras what mantra needs no purashcharana, no nyasa, no yoga, no samskara, and no other thing? A single utterance of the Lord’s holy name gives the highest result. O master of the demigods, if I am competent to hear it, please kindly tell me the Lord’s holy name.”

Lord Sadashiva said: “O fortunate one, your question is excellent. O you who wish for the welfare of all, I will tell you the secret chintamani [wish-fulfilling] jewel of all mantras. I will tell you the secret of secrets, the most confidential of all confidential things. I will tell you what I have not told either the goddess or your elder brothers. I will tell you two peerless Krishna mantras that are the crest-jewels of all mantras. One is:

“‘Gopijana-vallabha-charanau sharanam prapadye.’ (I take shelter of the feet of He who is the gopi’s beloved.) This mantra has three compound words, five individual words and sixteen syllables.

“The second mantra is: ‘Namo gopijana-vallabhabhyam.’ (Obeisances to the divine couple, who are dear to the gopis) This mantra has two words and ten syllables.

In texts 36-41, Lord Sadashiva continues: “One who either with faith or without faith once chants this five-word mantra resides among Lord Krishna’s gopi-beloveds.

text 54-77:

“Please hear, O Narada, and I will tell you the meaning of these mantras. The material world is manifested by the Lord’s maya potency and other external potencies. The spiritual world is manifested by the Lord’s chit potency and other internal and everlasting spiritual potencies. The protector of these potencies is said to be the gopi Sri Radha, who is Lord Krishna’s beloved. The transcendental goddess Sri Radha is the direct counterpart of Lord Sri Krishna. She is the central figure for all the goddesses of fortune. She is the pleasure potency of Lord Krishna. The wise say that She is the pleasure potency of Lord Krishna. Durga and the other goddesses in the world of the three modes are a million-millionth part of one of Her expansions. She is directly Goddess Maha-Lakshmi and Lord Krishna is Lord Narayana. O best of sages, there is not the slightest difference between Them. O best of sages, what more can I say? Nothing can exist without them. This universe made of spirit and matter together is Their potency. She is Durga and Lord Hari is Shiva. Lord Krishna is Indra and She is Shachi. She is Savitri and Lord Hari is Brahma. She is Dhumorna and Lord Hari is Yama. O Narada, please know that everything is Their potency. Even if I had many hundreds of years, I could not describe all Their glories.”

Vedanta-sutras (2.2.35-41): "if one is serious about attaining spiritual enlightenment and liberation, he must avoid worshipping Shiva as the Supreme Being, for it is unclear among Rudra Sampradaya whether Shiva is God or an unembodied void into which one will merge and lose individuality. The prominent Saivite view is that Shiva is a material manifestation of that void or Brahman. Thus, this understanding of the Absolute Truth is not cosistent, and the process will deliver uncertain results."

Durga:

Narada Purana (1.3.27) : “Durga is the great Maya, the trustworthy upholder of the universe. In view of her being the material cause of the universe, she is [also] called prakriti by scholars.”

Srimad-Bhagavatam (3.5.25) "the external energy works as both cause and effect in the cosmic manifestation. This external energy is known as maya or illusion, and through her agency only is the entire material manifestation made possible."

Brahma-samhita (5.19) "the primary material elements were originally separated. Then through the spiritual power of the Supreme, in His knowledge potency, maya was moved. It is through this combination of the efficient or spiritual potency in conjunction with the inactive material causal principles of maya that the elements and the different entities develop into a state of cooperation. Thus, it is by this combination of energies that the material creation can manifest, and the spiritual living beings appear as the materially conditioned souls within the material elements of the creation. In a graphic description, it is explained that maya appears like a huge pot filled with the innumerable universes that are like mustard seeds within it"

Vedanta-sutras (2.2.42-45) "to consider that Shakti or energy alone can be the independent cause of the world is not a complete understanding. The reason is that energy alone cannot create without the cooperation, direction, and facility from the energetic, which, in this case, is the Creator or Supreme Being. Energy must have a source, meaning the energetic. Thus, Shakti is ultimately the energy of the Supreme Lord. She is not nor can be the sole cause of the world. She works most closely with the energy of the Lord in the form of Lord Shiva."

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Swami Narayan and Vallabha on Shiva

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