Swami Narayan and Vallabha on Shiva

October 8, 2004

The Svetasvatara Upanishad (4.7-8) goes on to describe that, “The Supreme Lord is He who is referred to by the mantras of the Rig-veda, who resides in the topmost, eternal sky, and who elevates His saintly devotees to share that same position. One who has developed pure love for Him and realizes His uniqueness then appreciates His glories and is freed from sorrow. What further good can the Rig mantras bestow on one who knows that Supreme Lord? All who come to know Him achieve the supreme destination.”

bg 9.16-18 I am also the Rig, the Sama, and the Yajur Vedas.

October 8, 2004

"For there springs the well of honey [or Soma] in Vishnu’s highest step.”"

Visnu's highest steps but not Visnu is the highest. At Visnu's highest step, the father -- Somnath is there.

Vishnu is adored by Rudra since Visnu's highest steps reach Him.

Ganeshprasad · October 8, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Re

(Krsna and Rudra are both the Supreme Lord? When they are undivided? Can you please logically explain that statement?)

Nothing to explain really, one supreme Brahman going by different names

Bg 13.17 read it again it says undivided, yet appears as if divided in being; he, the object of knowledge, is the creator, sustainer and destroyer of (all) beings.

Read the above in cojonction with below

SB 8.7.21: The prajāpatis said: O deva deva, Mahādeva, Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds.

Do we have more then one supersoul?

And the next verse says assumes these forms not divided

SB 8.7.23: O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.mes read again

Re

(Rudra beholds Krsna with wonder in the Bhagavad Gita. Can you explain how that can be if Krsna and Rudra are undivided?)

All the forms of the lord are transcendental therefore it is not difficult for them to behold and see the universal form of the lord, I may ask you the same question why are Adityas also looking in wonder is Vishnu divided?

Re

(If the Srimad Bhagavatam says that the Lord divides himself when entering into the material manifestation, that clearly shows that the consequential representations (Brahma-Vishnu-Rudra) are the products of that division, not the cause.)

That apparent division actually declares their oneness, do you want me to quote those verses?

Re

(Shiva says so. All the religions except those coming from the Vedas are described as mleccha dharma, or not even qualified for mode of ignorance. Yet God sends those religions down also, so even they serve some purpose according to time, place and circumstance. The next stage from mleccha dharma is destroying ignorance, that is where Shiva, the all-merciful Lord of the material world serves his purpose. Those who are intelligent worship Shiva in order to get his mercy so that they may receive the favour of the Supreme Lord who also created Shiva i.e Krsna.

Shiva, who is the subject of discussion in these so called tamsic purans, have a look who is reciting this and who is the author? And this mleccha god are names of Krishna but Shiva is not?

Re

(That is why Shiva pulls all the stops and convinces Yogamaya to give him access into the gopi pastimes.)

He is Gopishvara say no more.

Re

(If this is from Bhagavad Gita, please see the proper translation. Please do not mix two different quotes from the Bhagavad Gita together. You mix the Rudra quote from Chapter 10 and mention the Chapter 13 quote as if it is a direct purport.)

That is a subjective view of yours, if you are able to tell me where the translation that I provided differs we may compare the two.

Re

(Although the Supersoul appears to be divided among all beings, He is never divided. He is situated as one. Although He is the maintainer of every living entity, it is to be understood that He devours and develops all.)

So the one who creates maintains and destroys appears to be divided yet is only one supersoul

SB 8.7.21: The prajāpatis said: O deva deva, Mahādeva, Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds.

Krishna says he is the supersoul, prajapati says Shiva is the supersoul

Can we have two? So when Krishna says I am Shankra does this make sense? Am I mixing the two verse or am my making my point that the two are but one.

Re

(The Lord is situated in everyone's heart as the Supersoul. Does this mean that He has become divided? No. Actually, He is one. The example is given of the sun: The sun, at the meridian, is situated in its place. But if one goes for five thousand miles in all directions and asks, "Where is the sun?" everyone will say that it is shining on his head. In the Vedic literature this example is given to show that although He is undivided, He is situated as if divided. Also it is said in Vedic literature that one Vishnu is present everywhere by His omnipotence, just as the sun appears in many places to many persons.)

You need not explain this to me, it is you who is having problem understanding the undividable nature of the supreme lord who creates maintains and destroys.

Re

(The real meaning behind this is wonderfully explained by Lrod Brahma in the Brahma Samhita. (Sambhu = Shiva)

And the other guest who is quite learned in Vedas has explained the nature of Sambhu nicely. I have no excess to Brahma Samhita therefore I can not comment.

Jai Shree Krishna

October 8, 2004

"In other words, Shiva is divine, but not quite the same as Krishna."

Please let us see word by word translation and not the purport that you reproduce from Brahman Samhita.

These slokas are from Sri Brahma Samhita.

Book 1 TEXT 8

niyatih sa rama devi

tat-priya tad-vasam tada

tal-lingam bhagavan sambhur

jyoti-rupah sanatanah

ya yonih sapara saktih

kamo bijam mahad hareh

WORD FOR WORD

The goddess, the regulator; the spiritual potency of Him; beloved of Him; under the control of lingam—bhagavan sambhuh-- jyotih-rupah-- eternal; that yonih is potency (saktih ), the desire; the seed; and mahat--the faculty of cognition of the Supreme Lord Hareh.

Please note eternal jyoti rupa. So, Sakti is the desire, the seed, and the faculty of cognition of Hareh. And Sakti – the regulator is under the control of lingam rupi eternal Bhagwan Shambhu. She is the potency of supreme Lord Hareh.

Book 1 TEXT 10

saktiman purusah so 'yam

linga-rupi mahesvarah

tasminn avirabhul linge

maha-visnur jagat-patih

WORD FOR WORD

The lord of the world MahaVishnu is manifest in Saktiman (joined to his sakti-female consort), Maheshvar- the great Lord who is linga rupi.

Note: In the purports Linga rupi is translated as “in the form of male generating organ. On the other hand, in all Sanskrit scriptures “Linga” means indicatory sign.

So, Maha Vishnu is manifest in the jyoti rupa sanatana bhagwan linga rupi Mahesvara.

Book 2 TEXT 15

vamangad asrjad visnum

daksinangat prajapatim

jyotir-linga-mayam sambhum

kurca-desad avasrjat

(The same) MahaVishnu created Vishnu from his left limb, Brahma from

his right limb and from the space between his eye brows manifests Sambhu the

divine halo.

Again, Shambhu is manifest in Maha Vishnu.

So, the vertical eye that we see in Visnu is the divine Shambhu. What will Vishnu do without the divine halo? And what will divine Shambhu do without the Visnu form.

Shambhu is the divine light of all and Vishnu is the divine body of the light. They are not separable. They are part of ONE consciousness Bhava or Lord Shiva or Maha Vishnu or Krishna; whatever you prefer.

Bhava is eternal. Bhavani is eternal. Vishnu is eternal. Other interpretations come and go.

Niyati is Bhavani and her controller is Shambhu.

October 10, 2004

"Vishnu is adored by Rudra since Visnu's highest steps reach Him."

SB 4.3.23: Lord Shiva said: I am always engaged in offering obeisances to Lord Vasudeva in pure Krishna consciousness. Krishna consciousness is always pure consciousness, in which the Supreme Personality of Godhead, known as Vasudeva, is revealed without any covering.

Here is a quote confirming Krishna's potency from the YAJUR VEDA:

Yajur Veda, The Kalisantarana Upanishad:

bhagavata AdipuruShasya nArAyaNasya nAmoccAraNamAtreNa nirdhRtakalir

bhavati| nAradah punah papraccha tannAma kimiti |

Tr: "By merely uttering the names of the Primeval Purusha, who is

Bhagavan Narayana, one is freed from the clutches of Kali."

Narada asked again: "What are those names of Narayana?"

sa hovaca hiraNyagarbhah |

Tr: Lord Brahma said:

hare rAma hare rAma rAma rAma hare hare |

Tr: O Hari, O Rama, O Hari, O Rama , O Rama O Rama, O Hari, O Hari!

hare kRShNa hare kRShNa kRShNa kRShNa hare hare |

Tr: O Hari, O Krishna, O Hari, O Krishna , O Krishna O Krishna,

O Hari, O Hari!

If you base all your beliefs on just the Rig Veda, rejecting all else, then that is your weakness. The acharyas accept the conclusion of all the Vedas, not just the Rig Veda.

October 10, 2004

"Bg 13.17 read it again it says undivided, yet appears as if divided in being; he, the object of knowledge, is the creator, sustainer and destroyer of (all) beings.

Read the above in cojonction with below

SB 8.7.21: The prajāpatis said: O deva deva, Mahādeva, Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds.

Do we have more then one supersoul?

And the next verse says assumes these forms not divided

SB 8.7.23: O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.mes read again"

Even if your interpretation of what is said is genuine, let's just take Shiva's view himself. He is a higher authority than Prajapati or Atri Muni. This is Shiva's view:

SB 4.3.23: I am always engaged in offering obeisances to Lord Vasudeva in pure Krsna consciousness. Krsna consciousness is always pure consciousness, in which the Supreme Personality of Godhead, known as Vasudeva, is revealed without any covering.

"All the forms of the lord are transcendental therefore it is not difficult for them to behold and see the universal form of the lord, I may ask you the same question why are Adityas also looking in wonder is Vishnu divided?"

Krishna is also source of Vishnu.

"That apparent division actually declares their oneness, do you want me to quote those verses?"

But it is explicitly said that the Lord divides himself when enterig into the material manifestation. Not that he stays in his original form. Are you saying the Srimad Bhagavatam is wrong when it says that this is the case?

"Krishna says he is the supersoul, prajapati says Shiva is the supersoul

Can we have two? So when Krishna says I am Shankra does this make sense? Am I mixing the two verse or am my making my point that the two are but one"

Shiva's view is higher than prajapati's:

SB 4.3.23: I am always engaged in offering obeisances to Lord Vasudeva in pure Krsna consciousness. Krsna consciousness is always pure consciousness, in which the Supreme Personality of Godhead, known as Vasudeva, is revealed without any covering.

"You need not explain this to me, it is you who is having problem understanding the undividable nature of the supreme lord who creates maintains and destroys."

The Supreme is undividable. In the material manifestation he divides himself according to Srimad Bhagavatam. Are you rejecting this?

Are you rejecting what Shiva says?

SB 4.24.33: Lord Shiva addressed the Supreme Personality of Godhead with the following prayer: O Supreme Personality of Godhead, all glories unto You. You are the most exalted of all self-realized souls. Since You are always auspicious for the self-realized, I wish that You be auspicious for me. You are worshipable by virtue of the all-perfect instructions You give. You are the Supersoul; therefore I offer my obeisances unto You as the supreme living being.

SB 4.24.42: Lord Shiva said: My dear Lord, You are the supreme cause of all causes, Sri Krsna.

Does Krishna ever offer his obeisances to Shiva as Supreme cause of all causes, Supersoul? No, because the position of Shiva is devotee of Krsna. This is confirmed.

And before u say that Krsna and Shiva are the same again. listen to Shiva once more:

SB 4.24.63: My dear Lord, You are THE ONLY SUPREME PERSON, the cause of all causes

KEY word is Only.

"And the other guest who is quite learned in Vedas has explained the nature of Sambhu nicely."

In the learned guest's quote it explicitly says Shambhu is manifest from Mahavishnu. Simply backs up what Lord Brahma says.

October 10, 2004

Brahma Samhita confirms that Brahma meditates on Krsna

Srimad Bhagavatam confirms that Shiva meditates of Krsna

Shiva confirms in Padma Purana that Shiva Purana is in the mode of ignorance.

I respect Shiva and Brahma's instruction to me, which is to meditate on Krsna as the ONLY Supreme cause of all causes.

Ganeshprasad · October 10, 2004

Jai Ganesh

What could be more simple then this

rudranam sankaras casmi.

Do i beleive you or Krishna.

Jai Shree Krishna

October 10, 2004

then you reckon that God has this 'absolute, undivided, single form consisting of Shiva, Krishna, the letter A, a lion, Vishnu, the moon, a banyan tree, wind, shark, dual compound word, Marici etc'.

That really seems undivided, doesn't it?

And you think this even when Krishna says 'these are my prominent MANIFESTATIONS'....

in other words they are not original, they are manifestations of the supreme.

and you maintain this even though Brahma and Shiva clearly state their subservient position to Krishna.

In order to maintain your opinion, you reject the views of Lord Brahma, and Lord Shiva - two of those you claim are God...how can God be wrong?!?

Ganeshprasad · October 10, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Re

(then you reckon that God has this 'absolute, undivided, single form consisting of Shiva, Krishna, the letter A, a lion, Vishnu, the moon, a banyan tree, wind, shark, dual compound word, Marici etc'.)

Brahman is indevisable

Re

(in other words they are not original, they are manifestations of the supreme.)

Original, to me suggest beginning, supreme is eternal indivisible

Re

(In order to maintain your opinion, you reject the views of Lord Brahma, and Lord Shiva - two of those you claim are God...how can God be wrong?!? )

You see I do not reject their view because I worship Lord Krishna as supreme, but I do not limit supreme brahmans. The vedas proclaim "Ekam Sata Vipraha Bahudha Vadanti" or "Truth is One but the wise see it in Different Ways".

But to maintain your position you reject what lord Vishnu says

Vishnu puran 5.33.46

Yo hariH sa ZivaH sakSad yaH zivaH sa svayamM hariH

Ye tayor bhedamAti stahan narakAya bhave nnaraH

Whoever is Lord Hari, He Himself is Lord Shiva indeed.

Any human being mistake both the lord to be different, he/she surely go to hell

And also reject your own words I think.

It was you if I can assume correctly stated that Bhagvatam is perfect it is amala, what you are, it seem that you are doing, is trying to reject what prajapati are saying in relation to lord shiva.

Or rejecting what Lord Vishnu saying, or Brahma saying

4.6/42-46 Brahma said to Shiva: I know you to be the Ruler of the universe; for you are the same as the undifferentiated Brahma, etc

4.7/50-54 The lord said: The supreme cause of the universe, I am also Brahma (the creator) and Lord Shiva (the destroyer of the universe). I am the self, the lord and the witness, self effulgent and unqualified. Embracing my own Maya, consisting of the three gunas, it is I who create, protect and destroy the universe have assumed names appropriate to my functions, O Brahmana! It is in such a Brahman, the supreme sprit, who is one without a second, that the ignorant fool views Brahma, Rudra and other beings as distinct entities. Just as a man never conceives his own head, hands and other limbs as belonging to anyone else, even so he who is devoted to me does not regard his fellow creatures as distant from himself.

He who sees no difference between Us three (Brahma, Rudra and Myself)-who are identical in essence and the very selves of all living beings-attains peace, O Daksa.

Please note, the supreme sprit, who is one without a second----.

Who can, but the supreme lord be the perfect devotee, so when he meditate on Krishna that is all auspicious.

Brahma vaivarta puran-prakriti khanda II.56.61

Sleeping or awake, shiva is constantly absorbed in meditation on Krishna.

As I Krishna, so is Shambhu, ther is no difference between Madhava and Isa.

Jai Shree Krishna

October 10, 2004

From Bhgavatam

Kansa had sent a cruel ogress Pootana to kill all the newly born babies in his kingdom. ----------. Lord Krishna was only six days old then.

Pootana's breasts were filled with poison. Pootana took the baby to secluded place and began to breast feed him. Lord Krishna prayed to Lord Shiva who came to stay in His throat and drank all the poison from the milk.

Lord Krishna prayed to Lord Shiva who came to stay in His throat and drank all the poison from the milk.

It is really surprising that when it comes to drinking poisons Lord Shiva comes handy. Is it?

He drank Hahahal also while other Gods took precious things. The Supreme is all. He does not need jewels. All jewels are His.

October 10, 2004

Rig Veda is a song of praise for Rudra. On account of these songs of praise the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

Book 10 RV

HYMN XCII. Visvedevas.

--------

9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard.

10 For these have spread abroad the fame of human kind, the Bull Brhaspati and Soma's brotherhood. Atharvan first by sacrifices made men sure: through skill the Bhrgus were esteemed of all as Gods.

11 For these, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

Again

the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

October 11, 2004

"Original, to me suggest beginning, supreme is eternal indivisible"

That's what you can't understand. It is hard for us to understand Supreme Brahman. He is eternal, Shiva is eternal, all the souls are eternal, yet He is original. Krishna is original.

"Vishnu puran 5.33.46

Yo hariH sa ZivaH sakSad yaH zivaH sa svayamM hariH

Ye tayor bhedamAti stahan narakAya bhave nnaraH

Whoever is Lord Hari, He Himself is Lord Shiva indeed.

Any human being mistake both the lord to be different, he/she surely go to hell"

They are non-different because they both posess the six opulences. Just like milk and curd are made of the same thing. Still, curd cannot replace milk (Brahma Samhita).

"4.6/42-46 Brahma said to Shiva: I know you to be the Ruler of the universe; for you are the same as the undifferentiated Brahma, etc"

Shiva is the ruler of the universe (it is after all material), and we are all undifferentiated Brahman. Our souls are the same quality as Krishna - just not the same quantity.

"4.7/50-54 The lord said: The supreme cause of the universe, I am also Brahma (the creator) and Lord Shiva (the destroyer of the universe). I am the self, the lord and the witness, self effulgent and unqualified. Embracing my own Maya, consisting of the three gunas, it is I who create, protect and destroy the universe have assumed names appropriate to my functions, O Brahmana! It is in such a Brahman, the supreme sprit, who is one without a second, that the ignorant fool views Brahma, Rudra and other beings as distinct entities. Just as a man never conceives his own head, hands and other limbs as belonging to anyone else, even so he who is devoted to me does not regard his fellow creatures as distant from himself.

He who sees no difference between Us three (Brahma, Rudra and Myself)-who are identical in essence and the very selves of all living beings-attains peace, O Daksa.

Please note, the supreme sprit, who is one without a second----."

1) He assumes names according to his functions.

2) He is equal to Brahma and Rudra in the sense that his function in the material manifestation is of the same importance as Brahma and Rudra.

"Who can, but the supreme lord be the perfect devotee, so when he meditate on Krishna that is all auspicious."

Krishna is Shiva's Supreme Lord. (backed up by Srimad Bhagavatam)

Shiva is not Krishna's Supreme Lord. (backed up by Bhagavad Gita, Brahma Samhita, Srimad Bhagavatam, the Narayana Upanishad)

As Krishna explains to Arjuna in the Mahabharata, 'I pray to Shiva for he is very dear to me, he is present in my soul'.

(The devotee is present in the soul of the Supreme).

October 11, 2004

Book 10 RV

HYMN XCII. Visvedevas

"he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard"

exactly, Shiva comes from heavenly planets. Shivaloka is a heavenly planet - the border between material and spiritual - Shiva-tattva. He is not in the Spiritual planets.

Krishna is the proprietor of the transcendental abode

October 11, 2004

"Lord Krishna prayed to Lord Shiva who came to stay in His throat and drank all the poison from the milk."

In the Lord's lila, he always engages his topmost devotees in His service.

Rama engaged Shiva as Hanuman in his service.

Krishna engaged Shiva in his service.

Ganeshprasad · October 11, 2004

Jai Ganesh

(("Original, to me suggest beginning, supreme is eternal indivisible"))

Re

(That's what you can't understand. It is hard for us to understand Supreme Brahman.)

And I am non the wiser by your statement.

Re

( He is eternal, Shiva is eternal, all the souls are eternal, yet He is original. Krishna is original.)

Well a Ram Bhakta will contest that, a Shiva Bhakta will do the same, supreme Brahman is one without a second, he/she has thousand of forms and names and each one of them is eternally supreme sprit.

"Vishnu puran 5.33.46

Yo hariH sa ZivaH sakSad yaH zivaH sa svayamM hariH

Ye tayor bhedamAti stahan narakAya bhave nnaraH

Whoever is Lord Hari, He Himself is Lord Shiva indeed.

Any human being mistake both the lord to be different, he/she surely go to hell"

Re

(They are non-different because they both posess the six opulences.)

You are giving your own interpretation read what it says hari is siva and siva is hari if you think they are different(bhedamti)----

Re

(Just like milk and curd are made of the same thing. Still, curd cannot replace milk (Brahma Samhita).

Here again you are bringing your own interpretation, there is no verse saying curd can not replace milk.

As to how the one supreme Brahman can transform in to another and become some thing else is beyond me.

As far as my understanding goes the supreme Brahman is being described here as part of the same coin differentiated by the two different expect.

Re

(Shiva is the ruler of the universe (it is after all material), and we are all undifferentiated Brahman. Our souls are the same quality as Krishna - just not the same quantity.)

You said you accept what Brahma say,

here is the full verse

SB 4.6.42: Lord Brahma said: My dear Lord Siva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way.

SB 4.6.43: My dear lord, you create this cosmic manifestation, maintain it, and annihilate it by expansion of your personality, exactly as a spider creates, maintains and winds up its web.

"4.7/50-54 The lord said: The supreme cause of the universe, I am also Brahma (the creator) and Lord Shiva (the destroyer of the universe). I am the self, the lord and the witness, self effulgent and unqualified. Embracing my own Maya, consisting of the three gunas, it is I who create, protect and destroy the universe have assumed names appropriate to my functions, O Brahmana! It is in such a Brahman, the supreme sprit, who is one without a second, that the ignorant fool views Brahma, Rudra and other beings as distinct entities. Just as a man never conceives his own head, hands and other limbs as belonging to anyone else, even so he who is devoted to me does not regard his fellow creatures as distant from himself.

He who sees no difference between Us three (Brahma, Rudra and Myself)-who are identical in essence and the very selves of all living beings-attains peace, O Daksa.

Please note, the supreme sprit, who is one without a second----."

Re

1) He assumes names according to his functions.

2) He is equal to Brahma and Rudra in the sense that his function in the material manifestation is of the same importance as Brahma and Rudra.

Read better O Brahmana! It is in such a Brahman, the supreme sprit, who is one without a second, that the ignorant fool views Brahma, Rudra and other beings as distinct entities.

Re

(Krishna is Shiva's Supreme Lord. (backed up by Srimad Bhagavatam)

And the same Bhagvat says Lord Shiva is supreme Brahman, The prajapati says so, Lord Brahma says so and Lord Vishnu says we are the same

You said Bhagvat is spotless (amala) yet you reject what prajapati says in it you twist what Lord Vishnu says, and I guess reject what Lord Brahma says also.

Re

(Shiva is not Krishna's Supreme Lord. (backed up by Bhagavad Gita, Brahma Samhita, Srimad Bhagavatam, the Narayana Upanishad)

I have not said anywhere Shiva is Krishna’s supreme Lord nor have I said Krishna is Shiva’s. all along I have maintain these are same going by different name and function.

Bhagvat gita confirms this Brahma samhita also and Bhagvatam I have provided many verses. I do not have Narayana Upanishad,

We have so far debated mainly on Gita and Bhagvat, since you do not even except the evidence from it there is no point me bringing the purans and Mahabharata epic which actually extol lord Shiva in his full glory.

Re

( Shiva comes from heavenly planets. Shivaloka is a heavenly planet - the border between material and spiritual - Shiva-tattva. He is not in the Spiritual planets.)

SB 4.6/45 O most auspicious lord, you have ordained the heavenly planets, the spiritual Vaikuntha planets and the impersonal Brahman sphere as the respective destinations of the performers of auspicious activities. Similarly, for others, who are miscreants, you have destined different kinds of hells which are horrible and ghastly. Yet sometimes it is found that their destinations are just the opposite. It is very difficult to ascertain the cause of this.

Jai Shree Krishna.

October 12, 2004

From Brahma Samhita (which is neither meant to glorify Vishnu or glorify Shiva - it is neutral), here is the quote which confirms it all:

BS 5.43: Lowest of all is located Devi-dhama [mundane world], next above it is Mahesh-dhama [abode of Mahesh]; above Mahesh-dhama is placed Hari-dhama [abode of Hari] and above them all is located Kṛṣṇa's own realm named Goloka. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, who has allotted their respective authorities to the rulers of those graded realms.

Now, one can argue that Shiva Purana glorifies Shiva's abode as supreme, and Bhagavat Purana is 'mode of goodness' and so it glorifies Krsna. But Brahma Purana (passion) is not more inclined to either Krishna or Shiva. Yet still it is written that Krsna's abode is higher than Mahesh Dhama. Take from that what you will...

Ganeshprasad · October 12, 2004

Jai Ganesh

Re

(From Brahma Samhita (which is neither meant to glorify Vishnu or glorify Shiva - it is neutral), here is the quote which confirms it all)

Well you would say that, and why not it is Samhita mainly recognized by Godiya sampradaya and I have absolutely no problem with that or the contents in it.

The supreme Lord is glorified and that is all that matters but I refuse to be like you are, now resorting to evidence from samhita which proves to me that you are rejecting the Bhagvat puran which you boldly declared to be spotless.

Re

(BS 5.43: Lowest of all is located Devi-dhama [mundane world], next above it is Mahesh-dhama [abode of Mahesh]; above Mahesh-dhama is placed Hari-dhama [abode of Hari] and above them all is located Kṛṣṇa's own realm named Goloka. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, who has allotted their respective authorities to the rulers of those graded realms.)

All glories to Govinda.

Re

(Now, one can argue that Shiva Purana glorifies Shiva's abode as supreme, and Bhagavat Purana is 'mode of goodness' and so it glorifies Krsna. But Brahma Purana (passion) is not more inclined to either Krishna or Shiva. Yet still it is written that Krsna's abode is higher than Mahesh Dhama. Take from that what you will... )

Evidence you provide is from Brahma Samhita which you are disguising as Brahma puran,

Are you serious?

The same Brahma has declared in Bhagvat puran SB 4.6/45 which you have rejected, in fact you have rejected every thing, so have it your way.

Jai Shree Krishna

October 13, 2004

"But Brahma Purana (passion) is not more inclined to either Krishna or Shiva. "

These are the kind of mistake some commit for whole world to see.

Brahma Samhita (that you quote to prove your point) and Brahma Purana are different. Samhita is a Vaishnav document of recent origin. Only a sect abides by it.

Even then. It cleary states Maha Visnu's form is manifest in Saktiman Purusa and in Maha Visnu, Shambhu manifests.

(Though there is no Maha Visnu in Rig Veda, but let us accept it).

Mahesh Dham is is not same as Shiva Loka. Lord Shiva has 5 manifested aspects. Shiva Loka is not manifested aspect and is not heaven. It is everywhere -- when Uma is tranquil. It is on Earth, in air, in heavens. Everywhere. One who realizes that never comes back to take birth.

Om is Uma -Mahesvara. When Uma moves, Visnu arrives. When Uma is tranquil, only Brahman exists. Therefore Visnu is Brahman.

And remember Brahma Samhita. Uma is under control of Saktiman Purusa and Uma is the cognitive power of Maha Visnu --who is Lord of the Manifested Universe.

If you read Upanishads you will see that 2 Brahman's are spoken of. One realted to time (Adityas) since time has meaning only when Sun exists. But prior to manifestation of time (Adityas), Maha Kala (so-called Tamas) or the Self (soul of beings) is above time and He is Brahman -- the Supreme one. Maha Kala only is the source of time.

No one doubts that Maha Visnu is the Supreme Lord of the Universe that keeps time. But he has source in OM, which is timeless. Baby, if you ever attain that timeless Turiya state, you will appreciate.

Before that can happen surrender your ego to Lord.

Uma-Mahesvar (unmanifest) is promordial but It has earhly manifestation. The original form is Ardhanarishwar.

Book 6

HYMN XLIX. Visvedevas.

-----------.

10 Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father. Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us.

Universe's Father. Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying

In Rig Veda, Rudra is the undecaying axle of a 3-tiered wheel. The axle is unmoving. But the 3 wheels throw up countless Universes.

Then:

From The Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva

Section XIV

Krishna -16000 Wives

The blessed Vishnu said: "I salute Mahadeva. Salutations to Thee. O Thou that art eternal origin of all things. The Rishis say that Thou art the Lord of the Vedas. The righteous say that Thou art Penance, Thou art Sattwa, Thou art Rajas, Thou art Tamas, and Thou art truth…….

The puissant Sankara then, devoted to the good of the universe, looked at the goddess Uma and the lord of the celestials and myself also, and thus spoke unto me":

"We know, O Krishna, that Thou, O slayer of foes, art filled with the greatest devotion towards us. Do what is for Thy good. My love and affection for Thee is very great. Do Thou ask for eight boons. I shall verily give them unto Thee. O Krishna, O best of all persons, tell me what they are, O chief of the Yadavas. Name what Thou wishest. However difficult of attainment they be, Thou shalt have them still".

The blessed Krishna said: "Bowing my head with great joy unto that mass of energy and effulgence, I said these words unto that great Deity, with a heart filled with gladness, -firmness in virtue, the slaughter of foes in battle, the highest fame, the greatest might, devotion to Yoga, Thy adjacence, and hundreds upon hundreds of children- these are the boons I solicit of Thee".

"So be it" said Sankara, repeating the words I had uttered. After this, the Mother of the universe, the upholder of all things, who cleanses all things, who is the spouse of Sarva (Siva), that vast receptacle of penances said with a restrained soul these words unto me:

"The puissant Mahadeva has granted Thee, O sinless one, a son who shall be named Samva. Do Thou take from me also eight boons which Thou choosest. I shall certainly grant them to Thee"

Bowing unto her my head, I said unto her:

"I solicit from thee non-anger against the Brahmanas (Brahmins), grace of my father, a hundred sons, the highest enjoyments, love for my family, the grace of my mother, the attainment of tranquillity and peace, and cleverness in every act!"

Uma said: "It shall be even so, O Thou that art possessed of prowess and puissance equal to that of a celestial. I never say what is untrue. Thou shalt have sixteen thousand wives. Thy love for them and theirs also for Thee shall be unlimited. From all Thy kinsmen also, Thou shalt receive the highest affection. Thy body too shall be most beautiful. Seven thousand guests will daily feed at Thy palace."

Vasudeva continued: "Having thus granted me boons both the god and the goddess disappeared there and then with their Ganas. All these wonderful facts, I related fully to that brahmana of great energy, viz., Upamanyu (from whom I had obtained the Diksha before adoring Mahadeva). Bowing down unto the great God, Upamanyu said these words to me" :

Upamanyu said: "There is no deity like Sarva. There is no end or refuge like Sarva. There is none that can give so many or such high boons. There is none that equals him in battle."

Now Maha Bharata is written by Ved Vyasa.

Let us please not demean Sanatana Dharma. If you believe without doubt that Maha Visnu or Krishna is the Supreme Lord, you are true -- since such a belief exists in the Supreme concsiousness alone. In that case, Lord Shiva will be the best aspect of the Supreme Lord. But then if you demean Shiva, you are only demeaning the Supreme Lord by demeaning His best aspect.

Similarly, if I demean Visnu, considering Shiva as the Supreme Lord (which belief also exists in the Supreme concsiousness alone), and then I demean the Supreme Lord.

And the world laughs at us.

Sages have given different name to the same Supreme Lord. Religion is about rising above the narrow confines of caste and belief (which is in mind) and other limitations.

Please, devotees. Please love all.

Hail the Lord.

October 13, 2004

Book 10 RV

********************HYMN XCII. Visvedevas

"he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard"

exactly, Shiva comes from heavenly planets. Shivaloka is a heavenly planet - the border between material and spiritual - Shiva-tattva. He is not in the Spiritual planets**************************

I know You have answer for everything.

But there is a problem. In the citation from RV there is no planet mentioned.

Second, Shiva Tattva is not Shiva. Any person will understand it.

October 13, 2004

**********8Rama engaged Shiva as Hanuman in his service.

Krishna engaged Shiva in his service.******************

Yes you are absolutely correct.

Lord serves all. But He serves Rama and Krishna most. He is servant of all. You do not know this. You are ignorant, still valuing the artificial values of this world.

Parents serve helpless but obstinate children. They are servants. Healthy serve the ill. The healthy are the servants. But some people still do not understand.

The Lord is my servant. He gives me air, intelligence, movement, joy and every thing that I have. He gives me the digestive power. Without His service, what I (this jiva) would be?

But Lord, you are partial. You give Lord Krishna power to digest poison. Why Lord? Why this partiality?

Is it because Lord Krishna knows that His real nature is you?

Spiritual are not those who yet do not understand the relationship between the served and the server. Hail Bhagavatam.

Oh Lord, Lord Krishna prayed to you and you came to stay in His throat and drank all the poison from the milk."

Lord, I pray that you be forever with me.

October 14, 2004

"Well you would say that, and why not it is Samhita mainly recognized by Godiya sampradaya and I have absolutely no problem with that or the contents in it.

The supreme Lord is glorified and that is all that matters but I refuse to be like you are, now resorting to evidence from samhita which proves to me that you are rejecting the Bhagvat puran which you boldly declared to be spotless."

It is mainly recognised by Gaudiya sampradaya, but that does not mean it is not bona fide. The prayers to Krsna from Brahma were discovered in Kerala by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu - he is predicted in countless Vedic scriptures as an incarnation of Krishna.

I am not rejecting Bhagavat Purana - where do you get that idea from? I am simply asking whether you accept Brahma's comments in the Brahma Purana or not? Do you agree that Krishna allots that authority to Shiva to rule his realm? It should not matter to you whether it is Samhita or not, because as you said you 'have no problems with the contents'.

"Evidence you provide is from Brahma Samhita which you are disguising as Brahma puran,

Are you serious?

The same Brahma has declared in Bhagvat puran SB 4.6/45 which you have rejected, in fact you have rejected every thing, so have it your way."

Now you resort to questioning the credibility of Brahma Samhita whereas before you 'had no problem with it'. As for SB 4.6/45, Brahma says Shiva ordains (appoints) the various destinations of the performers of activities. I agree with that.

I would contest that I have rejected nothing from the Srimad Bhagavatam.

October 14, 2004

"Brahma Samhita (that you quote to prove your point) and Brahma Purana are different. Samhita is a Vaishnav document of recent origin. Only a sect abides by it."

According to Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu (an incarnation of Krsna - do you want me to give you the quotes of his prediction?) the Brahma Samhita is a lost part of the Brahma Purana. Vaishnavs are not a sect, they are one of the four sampradayas.

"Even then. It cleary states Maha Visnu's form is manifest in Saktiman Purusa and in Maha Visnu, Shambhu manifests."

From Maha Vishnu, Shambhu is FULLY manifested (BS 5.15). Maha Vishnu is only manifest in Shambhu when Shambhu consorts with Shakti - and then only in the form of his glance (5.10)

"Mahesh Dham is is not same as Shiva Loka. Lord Shiva has 5 manifested aspects. Shiva Loka is not manifested aspect and is not heaven. It is everywhere -- when Uma is tranquil. It is on Earth, in air, in heavens. Everywhere. One who realizes that never comes back to take birth."

The point is that Brahma states that Govinda allots Shiva the authority to rule his realm. (BS 5.43)

"And remember Brahma Samhita. Uma is under control of Saktiman Purusa and Uma is the cognitive power of Maha Visnu --who is Lord of the Manifested Universe."

But the Supreme Lord does not engage with his illusory energy (BS 5.7) - therefore one can conclude that Shambhu is not the Supreme Lord, because Shambhu does engage with the illusory energy, Shakti (BS 5.8)

"No one doubts that Maha Visnu is the Supreme Lord of the Universe that keeps time. But he has source in OM, which is timeless. Baby, if you ever attain that timeless Turiya state, you will appreciate."

Where is it written that the source of Maha Vishnu is om?

Where is it written that Krishna's abode is subordinate to that of Shiva? Nowhere.

Where is it written that Shiva's abode is subordinate to that of Krsna? Brahma Samhita.

"Let us please not demean Sanatana Dharma. If you believe without doubt that Maha Visnu or Krishna is the Supreme Lord, you are true -- since such a belief exists in the Supreme concsiousness alone. In that case, Lord Shiva will be the best aspect of the Supreme Lord. But then if you demean Shiva, you are only demeaning the Supreme Lord by demeaning His best aspect.

Similarly, if I demean Visnu, considering Shiva as the Supreme Lord (which belief also exists in the Supreme concsiousness alone), and then I demean the Supreme Lord."

1) Shiva is the divine halo of the Supreme Lord. Based on Shiva saying in Srimad Bhagavatam that Krishna is the ONLY original person, I consider Krishna to be Supreme. Therefore, rather than demeaning Shiva, I am consistent with his view.

2) Krishna never prays to Shiva as his controller. But, Shiva says: (SB 4.24.43) You are also the supreme controller of Rudra.

3) I am not trying to demean Santana Dharma. There is one Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is one without a second. He therefore must have one original form. Isvarah Paramah Krishna Sac-cid-anandah vigrahah (BS 5.1) The supreme controller is Krishna, eternal, all-blissful and all-knowing.

4) Sages have given different names to the Supreme Lord? Man does not give God his name, God reveals his name to us. The reason sages mention different names is for our benefit. Since people at differing levels of consciousness have differing inclinations, it is necessary to give different names - otherwise many who do not have sufficient level of consciousness to follow the Ultimate, will become irreligious. The sages mention different names simply to ensure that absolute ignorance is destroyed.

October 14, 2004

"But there is a problem. In the citation from RV there is no planet mentioned."

Correct, but heaven is mentioned. 'He comes from heaven'

Heaven is a material realm.

October 14, 2004

"Lord serves all. But He serves Rama and Krishna most. He is servant of all. You do not know this. You are ignorant, still valuing the artificial values of this world."

Yes, and Lord Shiva states that Krishna is supreme controller of Rudra (SB 4.24.43). We have no option but to accept his statement.

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Swami Narayan and Vallabha on Shiva

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