Cracking the Indus Valley Code

[barney 0]

Cracking the Indus Valley Code

PUBLISHING

 

Book Barons of Delhi

Decades-old publishing dynasties protect, promote and preserve dharma

 

Interviews and reporting By Prabha Bhardwaj, New Delhi

 

Hinduism Today, May 1998

 

[...]

 

LANGUAGE

 

Cracking the Indus Valley Code

 

Two bold researchers say the ancient seals have surrendered their secrets

 

With Dr. N.S. Rajaram, Bangalore

 

I have worked with outstanding scientists at NASA, including Nobel laureates," Dr. N.S. Rajaram told Hinduism Today. "Never have I met a genius like Dr. Natwar Jha. His command of language and ability to correlate details is astounding." Jha's prodigious abilities may well earn him a coveted place in history as the man who finally deciphered the confounding script of the Indus Valley civilization. The remains of that civilization were discovered by British explorers in 1875 in what is now Pakistan. Yet, much about the people who inhabited these urban centers remains in the dark because the script they used, specimens of which are available on 4,000 small soapstone seals, has long baffled scholars.

 

Natwar Jha, a 58-year-old Vedic scholar and paleographer from West Bengal, may have found the solution to the great problem. In a slim volume of 60 pages titled Vedic Glossary on Indus Seals, Jha has provided both the key to the ancient script as well as a large number of readings. After a careful examination of his work, the American Vedic scholar Vamadeva Shastri (David Frawley) and N.S. Rajaram, both experts in the Indus civilization, believe his reading to be substantially correct. By applying Jha's methods they found they could independently read a large number of seals. The breakthrough was reported in the Indian press in November, 1997, but most scholars have yet to even hear of it, much less study Jha's book.

 

Is it reasonable that an unknown scholar working in a rural part of West Bengal could make such a breakthrough? At least two of the great decipherments of history--Egyptian hieroglyphics and Minoan "Linear B" script--were cracked by outside amateurs. Thomas Young, a brilliant English doctor and physicist, deciphered hieroglyphics on the famed Rosetta Stone in 1815. The Linear B script was deciphered only in 1952 by the determined amateur Michael Ventris, a British architect. Outsiders, in fact, have a decided advantage over those logically more qualified for the work, for they do not share the prejudices and misconceptions which may have taken deep root among scholars.

 

The first and biggest misconception corrected by Jha concerned who inhabited the Indus Valley. Most scholars believe it was a Dravidian-speaking people who were driven out of the area in 1500 bce by an invasion of Aryans from the north and west. They therefore assumed the script to be an ancient form of a Dravidian language, perhaps Tamil. All attempts to provide a Dravidian interpretation for the script have failed. But in the last ten years, a strong minority of scholars and others have challenged the Aryan Invasion theory as wrong and proposed that the people of the Indus Valley are the ancestors of people who live in India today. Accepting this point of view, Jha proceeded on the assumption the seals were in an ancient form of Sanskrit.

 

Jha decided to search for Vedic words on the seals. In this he was helped by an ancient work known as the Nighantu. It is a glossary of Sanskrit words compiled by the sage Yaska. Jha also found that the "Shanti Parva" of the Mahabharata (the ancient history of India) preserves an account of Yaska's search for older, "buried" glossaries--perhaps the seals--in compiling his own. From this Jha concluded that some of the seals must contain words found in Yaska's Nighantu. This conclusion was critical, for it greatly narrowed what he was looking for. The Nighantu is a late Vedic work, dealing with the words of ancillary Vedic texts. The entire Rig Veda would already have been in existence for thousands of years at the time the seals were produced.

 

It has long been known that there was a correspondence between the Indus script and characters in other ancient scripts of the Indian sub-continent and neighboring regions. Especially it had been demonstrated that there was some relationship between the Indus script and the most ancient forms of Brahmi, the predecessor to the Sanskrit Devanagiri script. In an amazing feat of correlation, Jha compared all of the characters from all languages and produced a concordance of similar characters and sounds. He found that letters of most of the ancient scripts were related to Indus signs.

 

By painstaking cross-referencing, he slowly hit upon the meaning of individual symbols, and found words from the Nighantu on the seals. After several hundred seals, he arrived at a relatively consistent system of translation that anyone can apply. Now the job is to verify and refine his work.

 

TO CONTACT DR. N. JHA AND TO ORDER COPIES OF VEDIC GLOSSARY ON INDUS SEALS WRITE: GANGA KAVERI PUBLISHING HOUSE, D. 35/77, JANGAMAWADIMATH, VARANASI 221 001 INDIA. N.S. RAJARAM, F2 "RAJATHA MANOR," 42 PETALAMMA TEMPLE ROAD, BASAVANAGUDI, BANGALORE 4, INDIA.

 

 

[Guest guest]

"But in the last ten years, a strong minority of scholars "

 

Vast majority of highly qualified scholars accept the AIT

[Guest guest]

And the proposed date of 1500 BC? Especially after the discovery of the Sarasvati river? Isn't that supposed to at the very least push the supposed Aryan Invasion WAY back?

 

I don't think it disproves AIT but the discovery seems to at the very least push the Aryan invasion back a couple centuries or millenia.

 

Any rational scholar would at least attest to that, right? So those that don't can't, be claimed to be rational.

 

 

[maadhav 0]

<< Vast majority of highly qualified scholars accept the AIT >>

 

all anti-hindus.

highly qualifed in passing a lie as a truth to screw up real history of the hidus. they manufacture history, secretly smuggle out artifacts and scriptures from india, convert hindus in theri own homeland, and the muslims destroy temples.

 

highly qualified to do all these!

 

 

[maadhav 0]

<< Vast majority of highly qualified scholars accept the AIT >

 

See the quotes below that exposes such "highly qualifed scholars":

 

---------

Max Muller and other scholars of the west laboured hard on the Vedic texts, not only as pure academicians, but they were also sure, that if they could show to Indian people how meaningless and debasing the concept of their own Vedic scholiasts were, their future generations, more enlightened on account of the advances of modern philosophy and sciences, would refuse to accept the Vedas and the Vedic theology as their solace. *

 

· Max Muller, as a true Christian, was convinced of the fact, that his translations of the Vedic hymns based on the interpretations of Sayana and other scholiasts, would take away the faith of Indians from the Vedas, and in consequence, Indians would also become Christians in due course. We are told that he wrote a letter to his wife in 1968, in which he remarked thus, whilst he was busy in editing the Rgveda:

 

“I hope I shall finish that work and I feel convinced, though I shall not live to see it, yet this edition of mine (of the Rgveda) and the translations of the Vedas will hereafter tell to a great extent on the fate of India and on the growth of millions of souls in that country. It is the root of their religion, and to show them what the root is, is, I feel sure, the only way of uprooting all that has been sprung from it during the last three thousand years.”

 

Of course, the result has been otherwise. Due to Dayananda and people who have shared his view, the Vedas are much more popular in Indian society today than in Max Muller’s days, and their teachings have started revitalizing human mind, and now again they have started exercising a dynamic impact on our society.

- Rgveda Samhita Vol. 1, Pg. 116

 

======

 

Are you a supporters or fan of such scholars?

 

[Guest guest]

How is Max Muller's translation and comments related to the AIT theory ?

[Guest guest]

Since back then, well even now, people who call themselves "True Christians" believe it is their god-given right to convert people of other creeds into Christianity. By any means possible, which would include lies, looking at things from a religious slant, etc.

 

His interpretations of the Vedas dealt with it as a battle between light and dark-skinned people. Not of a battle between enlightenment and ignorance, he took the words light and dark to mean LITERALLY light and dark skin.

 

His dating of the Vedas isn't scholarly at all, since he refused to look at them as being older than 1500 BC, or else it would jeopardize the creation theory the Bible puts forth.

 

Yet, the more evidence that comes forth, the more we see he is wrong in his assumptions, and wrong to try to twist the Vedas into something which they are (probably) not.

 

 

[maadhav 0]

very good response! thanks!

 

[Guest guest]

Yes Max Muller did have his agenda, however later on in his life he even said that "Arya is not a race", but this is something most western scholars like to ignore.

 

It should be noted that even though he was sly in his ways and wanted to push the AIT, he did have respect and admiration for Hinduism and it's yogis at the time such as Sri Ramakrisha.

 

[Guest guest]

Max Muller is not the only authority on AIT, there are many others.

 

Can you prove that there was no "invasion" and destruction of indegious culture and race during the 18/19th century in countries like Australia , New Zealand, America etc. Domination and oppression is Aryan legacy.

 

Off course a Hindu zealots/Indian nationalist will deny it and in your own words will use "any means possible, which would include lies, looking at things from a religious slant, etc"

 

"Not of a battle between enlightenment and ignorance he took the words light and dark to mean LITERALLY light and dark skin"

 

Why is there a need to depict the asuras as "being dark skin" when the majority of the Dravidians (Tamils) are dark skinned.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Well, doesn't the burden of proof lie on THEM?? By the way, what are you, that you would call disbelievers of the AIT "Hindu zealots"?

 

As far as I can tell, they haven't produced a shred of hard evidence to support AIT. Either way, I don't think much of Hindu culture is really changed because of AIT, considering many of the same elements that existed in ancient India is at least existing in some form today in Hinduism. The idea that a tribe of nomads perfected the art of yoga, postulated on the nature of the world, etc. is inconsistent with the way nomads would normally behave to begin with. And there is NO proof of an invasion even at harrapan sites. Unless you can cite hard evidence, the burden of proof lies on the AIT supporters not the ones who disbelieve it.

[Guest guest]

You cannot deny the fact that the Aryans invaded America, Australia etc in the 17th /18th centuries destroying native cultures. They invaded the Indus valley thousands of years back.

 

Why "why are the asuras depicted' dark skin in the vedas ?

 

the dravidians and aryans have nothing in common, either physically, linguistically or culturally. These itself is ample proof that two are distinctive races.

 

Btw there is nothing Aryan in Hinduism .. the Aryan gods have been replaced with Dravidian gods and culture - can be taken up as a separate issue /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Hindu zealots and Indain nationalist have to push their idealogy to prevent a North/ South divide leading to the fragmentation of India. The AIT would not suit their agenda.

 

I dont have to give you reference from supporters of AIT its there for you to do your search.

 

If the AIT is a lie then why is there a need to start a thread on the AIT?

 

[Guest guest]

Genetic Research Supports Aryan Invasion Theory

 

By Roar Bjonnes (PNA)

 

In the fields of yoga and ayurvedic medicine, I have a great deal of respect for the scholarship of David Frawley and Georg Feuerstein. However, in their book In Search of the Cradle of Civilization, co-authored with Subash Kak, they may have ventured too far from the rigors of science. Their usual erudite research appears to be creating what they claim to debunk: another myth.

 

In attempting to expose the Indian Aryan Invasion Theory, they have instead created a new, bogus theory based on overzealous and often inaccurate interpretations of Vedic philosophy, history, rites and (oh yes!) myth.

 

But, who can blame them! It is not an easy task to make sense of Indian history, especially its prehistory.

 

The first and main mistake these authors make (and they are not alone in doing so!) is to lump most all of Indian history and spirituality into the omnipresence of the Vedas. In reality, India is composed of two distinct, yet often co-mingling rivers of rites and spiritual practice: the Vedic and the Tantric.

 

Unlike Frawley and Feuerstein, Tantric historians, such as N. N. Bahttacharya, and Tantric masters, such as P. R. Sarkar, draw a clear distinction between Aryan and Dravidyan culture and history. The Aryans were predominantly Vedic and the Dravidyans Tantric. Although over thousands of years, these two cultural rivers joined and became what we now call Hindu culture.

 

And, yes, these scholars also claim that indeed there was an Aryan invasion. Not always violent, and not a sudden one either. The Aryans arrived from central Asia, Iran and Afganistan over thousands of years and settled first in what is today Kashmir. It was here, claims Sarkar, that the Vedas were first written down in the Sarada script.

 

There are four Vedas, and according to tantric historians, the Rigveda is the oldest and was mostly composed outside of India. Frawley et al, however, maintains it was composed in India, of course. That the Rigveda contains material seemingly indigenous to India is likely because it was never written down before thousands of years later, after many linguistic and cultural changes throughout its long, oral history on Indian soil!

 

One example of such indigenous Indian influence on the Aryan Vedas can be seen especially in the fourth and often neglected Atharvaveda. As Frawley et al writes: “…many Vedic thinkers have had an ambivalent attitude toward the Atharvaveda.” Yes, indeed. And part of the reason for that is that this Veda was greatly influenced by Tantra. P. R. Sarkar points out, for example, that the Nrsimha Tapaniiya Shruti of the Atharvaveda has been far more influenced by the non-Aryan Tantra than by the Aryan Veda.

 

One important archeological fact mentioned in the book is the pashupati seal, found in the ancient Harappan valley civilization, and which depict God Shiva, the Lord of the Beasts. Sarkar points out that this seal is an example of the indigenous tantric symbolism of the Harappan culture. The esoteric Tantric meaning of this seal is that Shiva is the controller of the pashus, the animal desires of man.

 

Contrary to Vedic scholars, Shiva was not just a mythological God, he was, according to the Tantric tradition, an historical person. Like Buddha and Krishna, he was a great spiritual leader who systematized yogic practices, invented the octave, Indian classical dance (thus he was called Nataraja, the great dancer) and systematized ayurvedic medicine. Shiva lived in India around 5000 BCE, the time when Aryans already had settled in the north of India.

 

So, the great limitation of this book and all other scholars who claim there was never an Aryan Invasion of India, is that they completely discount this “other” aspect of Indian history. Indeed, they often claim that the historical struggle between Tantric and Vedic peoples, and their gradual co-mingling, never really took place at all.

 

But, if the rich tantric history and tradition of India is unable to sway these scholars, maybe Western genetic science will.

 

Recent genetic discoveries by Dr. Spencer Wells (well documented in his book Journey of Man) shows that there were at least two large migrations into India, one by dark skinned people from Africa via the coastal areas and then into Australia, and another much later migration by lighter skinned people from central Asia.

 

By sampling DNA of people in a village close to Madurai in Tamil Nadu, Dr Wells spotted a genetic mutation that had been passed on to aboriginal people in Australia - thus offering the first biological proof that African ancestors of the Australian natives passed through India on the way to their new home. He also proved that later the people who moved into India indeed were of Aryan stock.

 

There is also now some historical and archaeological evidence which suggests that as the Aryans came in, they intermarried with indigenous people and also absorbed many of them into their system of ranking.

 

Frawley et al dismiss this theory as a myth, claiming it "devalues" India's history. Now, however, another genetic study has produced strong evidence supporting the Aryan Invasion Theory. A team led by Michael Bamshad of the University of Utah in Salt Lake City compared the DNA of 265 Indian men from different castes with DNA from nearly 750 African, European, Asian and other Indian men.

 

The researchers first analyzed mitochondrial DNA, which people only inherit from their mothers. When they looked at specific sets of genes that tend to be inherited as a unit, they found about 20 to 30 percent of the Indian sets resembled those in Europeans. The percentage was highest in upper caste males, which supports the theory of Aryans being upper castes. Overall, though, each caste resembled other Asians most.

 

So, the proof of the Aryan Invasion Theory, as they say

 

[Guest guest]

That's no proof of an invasion. If you really believe genetic testing is the only proof required for an invasion theory, you're just a fool. First off, India has been subject to a number of invasions. To think that Indians are of "pure blood" is absurd, because invaders do marry into the culture.

 

Second of all, genetic testing DOES NOT prove an invasion. All it proves is that Indians have a genetic link with Europeans. That's it. And that could have come from a number of different reasons.

 

Give me more proof or leave the subject altogether, as it's obvious you're just as biased, if not more, than I am and just as big of a "zealot" although a different kind.

[Guest guest]

"You cannot deny the fact that the Aryans invaded America, Australia etc in the 17th /18th centuries destroying native cultures. They invaded the Indus valley thousands of years back."

 

Aryans as in Europeans? Are you equating Aryans with Europeans, or do you honestly believe there was an actual race of people that called themselves "Aryans" in the 17th and 18th centuries?

 

"Why "why are the asuras depicted' dark skin in the vedas ?"

 

That has nothing to do with an "invasion" per se. That could just be a matter of fact. That "asuras" were those who were uncivilized or whatever and HAPPENED to be very dark-skinned. Either way, provide textual references, and maybe that would help.

 

 

"the dravidians and aryans have nothing in common, either physically, linguistically or culturally. These itself is ample proof that two are distinctive races"

 

First off, it has already been disproven that Aryan is a race. It could represent a group of people, but they are not genetically different from any ancient Indian. While you provide this "evidence" a lot of it can be interpreted several ways. It's possible that the Harrapan culture lived as one for a while, but then split due to philosophical differences and developed their schools of thought independently from each other. Thus resulting in a different language, different culture, and possibly resulting in different physical features. For several reasons: 1. The Dravidians live in the South, closer to the equator, so their bodies could have adapted to their climate. 2. If the two groups had indeed split, one group may have been subject to more invasions than the other, which would result in the different physical, linguistic, and cultural features. That's not to say Sanskrit was brought into India (it could have been, but if it weren't), Sanskrit could have been influenced by other languages. Or maybe both groups had a precursor to Sanskrit and Tamil, maybe Brahmi or whatever, and they both developed their languages independent from each other, with different things influencing their development.

 

"If the AIT is a lie then why is there a need to start a thread on the AIT? "

 

I don't know if it's a lie. It may be true, it may not be. But to state it as a clear-cut fact when no real hard evidence has come by, now THAT makes it an offense.

 

 

[maadhav 0]

<< Why is there a need to depict the asuras as "being dark skin" >>

 

suras and asuras come in all colors and forms.

read daiva asura sampad vibhag yoga chapter of gita.

 

india has produced ungly looking dark colored saints, some even born in shudra varna.

 

world has seen very beautiful and even wealthy asuras

in disguise of suras and saints.

see abc or cbs news. some asuras serve as church chapleins, some as swamis.

 

 

[Guest guest]

”Aryans as in Europeans? Are you equating Aryans with Europeans, or do you honestly believe there was an actual race of people that called themselves "Aryans" in the 17th and 18th centuries?”

 

Give whatever names Aryan , XYZ etc, the fact is the term Aryan denotes “Noble race” Enlighten Race” this is enough evidence to proof racial superiority.

 

The question is not on the identity of the Aryans, which is never permanent, but how and why language and culture change in a particular region?

 

”That has nothing to do with an "invasion" per se. That could just be a matter of fact. That "asuras" were those who were uncivilized or whatever and HAPPENED to be very dark-skinned. Either way, provide textual references, and maybe that would help”.

 

You mean to say you are ignorant on the depiction of the Asuras in the vedas?

Your equation asuras = uncivilised = dark skin

 

"the dravidians and aryans have nothing in common, either physically, linguistically or culturally. These itself is ample proof that two are distinctive races"

 

First off, it has already been disproven that Aryan is a race. It could represent a group of people, but they are not genetically different from any ancient Indian”.

 

Do you have scientific evidence to back your claim? Refer to article by Roar Djonnes on the genetic difference.

 

Chose to interpret the “evidence” in way historic sources are manipulated to suit the claims of the Hindutva ideology, i.e

a) Deny the invasion

b) Hindus could have descended from aliens invaders

c) Seek a lineal descent from the Aryans

d) Aryans are indigenous

e) Dismiss AIT historians as western, imperialist, Marxist or whatever

 

“one group may have been subject to more invasions than the other”

 

From whom? Central Asia? Invasion - that’s precisely the issue of this discussion.

 

“I don't know if it's a lie. It may be true, it may not be. But to state it as a clear-cut fact when no real hard evidence has come by, now THAT makes it an offense”.

 

Hard evidence for anti AIT lobbist? They dont give recognition to the technical requirement for historian, archaeologist or foundation on social science, which are essentials to historians.

 

Instead they rely on eveidence from engineers, computer experts, foriegn astrologers, journalist turned politicians posing as scholars of Indology.

 

[Guest guest]

"Second of all, genetic testing DOES NOT prove an invasion. All it proves is that Indians have a genetic link with Europeans. That's it. And that could have come from a number of different reasons."

 

That's right. It's silly how these supporters of the AIT refuse to even acknowledge other invaders such as the Greeks (of Euro origin) of which I'm sure many North Indians have some genetic link with. These so-called scholars mistake these Greeks for the legendary 'Aryan' invaders.

 

By the way alot of these 'scholars' are now ditching the AIT for the 'new and improved' Aryan Migration Theory!

[Gouri 0]

Aum Krishna,

Whether I agree or not

that was worth reading...

Prayers

Gouri

[Guest guest]

Cracking the Indus Valley code - SCHOLARLY COMMUNICATION

 

New Evidence on the 'Piltdown Horse' Hoax

 

http://www.flonnet.com/fl1723/17231260.htm

[Guest guest]

And I don't see the big deal. They claim they have other evidence and this isn't all that important. That it could have been a product of bias on one or the other's part. Farmer, Witzel, and Thapar believe the seal to be that of a unicorn bull. Rajaram and Jha believe it to be that of a horse. Does one group being right over another really change much? the answer is NO. It's just a seal! It doesn't prove horses didn't exist, all it does is NEGATE proof that horses did exist. There's a big difference there.

 

To say, since the seal that was thought to be of a horse isn't a horse at all, therefore the Aryan invasion is true is pure folly. It's like saying God doesn't exist just because Christianity, Islam, or Hinduism, or whatever you believe is wrong.

[Guest guest]

Forget my prior comments on the article. You may be right. I still have to read it all, however, I'm not obstinate that AIT is false. I obviously don't want to believe it, but if it is, it is.

 

However, I'd want to understand the ramifications of this: Does that disprove the Mahabharata and Ramayana? Does that disprove Hindu concepts? What does it mean if AIT is true?

 

If Harappans didn't have horses, what did they use for travelling? Surely they had to have some sort of animal or vehicle that they used to travel?

 

 

[maadhav 0]

<< Does that disprove the Mahabharata and Ramayana?

no. however, many anti-vedic people do not hold good opinion/reverence about these epics.

 

<< Does that disprove Hindu concepts? >>

if we hindus choose to not get confused by anyone,

then no one an do anything about it.

 

<< What does it mean if AIT is true? >>

 

then it gives an argument to those who identify them selves as aryan "race" that they - the race is superior, and what ever is good in hinduism is due to them. this is a way to steal the credit from those who erally should get.

 

some points to not forget are:

- aryan is not a race.

- many different races do have arrived in india. those who came from outside, did not bring the vedic culture with them. they, after coming accepted teh vedic cuture i would think. teh cradle of the vedic civilization - that ia arnay civilization - in india, and no other place. AIT was fabricated by anti hindu european academic indology scholars to make people - indians - to look down and give up hinduism, and accept ..

 

- we have record of mahabharat war, but have no record of any aryan invasion/war. we have all the records of islam's barbaric invasions. even alexander came to invade, but coudl not cross sindu, got exhausted amd returned then died on the way. also the mongols (chengiskhan) never invaded india.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jai Ganesh

 

RE

(- we have record of mahabharat war, but have no record of any aryan invasion/war. we have all the records of islam's barbaric invasions. even alexander came to invade, but coudl not cross sindu, got exhausted amd returned then died on the way. also the mongols (chengiskhan) never invaded india)

How can you forget Ramayan?

but you are right this a fabrication.there is no bases for Aryan race,no hitorical proof,and yet we fell for it.

About time we Hindus woke-up.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Guest guest]

Well, according to AIT proponents, horses weren't even known to India until the invasion occurred, yet the Mahabharata war was supposed to take place in India, around 3000 BC, right? And yet, there is plenty mention of horses and elephants and all sorts of creaturs, chariots, etc.

 

So proving AIT is true, would put much of the Mahabharata into question if not disprove it altogether, wouldn't it?