Bhakti as the ultimate goal beyond mukti

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

The Srimad Bhagavatam states the following regarding bhakti and liberation:

 

salokya-sarshti-samipya-

sarupyaikatvam apy uta

diyamanam na grihnanti

vina mat-sevanam janah

 

"A devotee does not accept any kind of liberation--salokya, sarshti, samipya, sarupya or ekatva--even though they are offered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, if they are devoid of the Lord's service."

 

This clearly establishes bhakti as the ultimate goal beyond mukti, or liberation. What to speak of ekatvam [nondual liberation], the devotee even rejects salokya-mukti [to reside on the same spiritual planet as the Lord], sarshti-mukti [to have the same oppulences as the Lord], samipya-mukti [to be an associate of the Lord], and sarupya-mukti [to have the same bodily form as the Lord]. Bhakti is the ultimate aim, even beyond liberation.

 

Narada describes the uniqueness of bhakti as follows:

 

muktim dadhati karhicit sma na bhakti-yogam

 

"Krishna gives liberation [mukti], but very rarely He gives his own devotion [bhakti-yogam]."

 

The Bhagavatam describes those who attain mukti without developing devotion. They "again fall down". If one does not attain bhakti, mukti is an incomplete accomplishment:

 

ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas

tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah

aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah

patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah

 

"O Lord, the intelligence of those who think themselves liberated but who have no devotion is impure. Even though they rise to the highest point of liberation by dint of severe penances and austerities, they are sure to fall down again into material existence, for they do not take shelter at Your lotus feet."

 

The desire for liberation is an impediment to devotion. Bhakti will not manifest in the heart of such a person:

 

bhukti-mukti-spriha yavat

pishaci hridi vartate

tavad bhakti-sukhasyatra

katham abhyudayo bhavet

 

"The material desire to enjoy the material world and the desire to become liberated from material bondage are considered to be two witches, and they haunt one like ghosts. As long as these witches remain within the heart, how can one feel transcendental bliss? As long as these two witches remain in the heart, there is no possibility of enjoying the transcendental bliss of devotional service."

 

Pure devotees do not desire liberation. In the Padma Purana, Satyavrata Muni emplifies pure devotion when offering the following prayer to the Lord:

 

varam deva moksham na mokshavadhim va

na canyam vrine 'ham vareshad apiha

idam te vapur natha gopala-balam

sada me manasy avirastam kim anyaih

 

"O Lord, although you are able to give all kinds of benedictions, I do not pray for the boon of liberation [moksha], nor the highest liberation of eternal life in Vaikuntha [moksha-avadhim], nor any other boon. O Lord, I simply wish that this form of Yours as Bala Gopala in Vrindavana may be ever manifest in my heart, for what is the use of any other boon besides this?"

 

The great devotee Satyavrata Muni has no interest in liberation, nor even in being elevated to Sri Vaikuntha. His only desire is to constantly remember the Lord's form. This practice of smaranam is one of the nine limbs of bhakti, which is superior to the desire for liberation.

 

Elsewhere we find the same sentiment in the following prayer:

 

tvat-sakshat-karanahlada-vishuddhabdhi-sthitasya me

sukhani goshpadayante brahmany api jagad-guro

 

"My dear Lord, O master of the universe, since I have directly seen You, my transcendental bliss has taken the shape of a great ocean. Thus I now regard the happiness derived from understanding Brahman to be like the water contained in a calf's hoofprint."

 

Thus, the Realization of Brahman is insignificant compared to engagement in devotional service, such as hearing, chanting and remembering the Lord.

 

The great saint, Bilvamangala considers mukti to be a menial servant of bhakti:

 

bhaktis tvayi sthiratara bhagavan yadi syad

daivena nah phalati divya-kisora-murtih

muktih svayam mukulitanjali sevate 'sman

dharmartha-kama-gatayah samaya-pratiksah

 

"If I am engaged in devotional service unto You, my dear Lord, then very easily can I perceive Your presence everywhere. And as far as liberation is concerned, I think that liberation stands at my door with folded hands, waiting to serve me--and all material conveniences of dharma [religiosity], artha [economic development] and kama [sense gratification] stand with her." Krsna-karnamrta 107

 

Narada states bhakti to be superior to all other paths:

 

sa tu karma-jnana-yogebhyo 'py adhikatara

 

"Pure devotion is far superior to fruitive work [karma], cultivation of knowledge [jnana], and mystic meditation [yoga]."

 

And further, he states bhakti to be the ultimate goal of all:

 

phala-rupatvat

 

"Bhakti is the fruit of all these endeavours [karma, jnana, and yoga]."

 

The Bhagavatam states that jnana and vairagya automatically accompany bhakti:

 

vasudeve bhagavati bhakti-yoga prayojitah

janayaty ashu vairagyam jnanam ca yad ahaitukam

 

"By rendering devotional service [bhakti-yoga] unto the Personality of Godhead, Vasudeva, one immediately acquires knowledge and detachment causelessly."

 

Thus jnana is a by-product of bhakti, and not the other way around.

 

In the Gita, Krishna explains how the brahma-bhuta, or self-realized soul, attains devotion:

 

brahma-bhutah prasannatma

na socati na kanksati

samah sarvesu bhutesu

mad-bhaktim labhate param

 

"One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman. He never laments nor desires to have anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me."

 

Bhakti is not just a method to attain the stage of brahma-bhuta, or self-realization. Once situated in brahman, one attains to the supreme devotion of the Lord, para-bhakti. This is clearly shown in the case of liberated souls such as Shuka-muni and the four Kumaras, who though liberated, still became attracted to the process of bhakti.

 

 

[shvu 1]

 

Not being able to answer to my post on the other thread of Bhakti, Mukti, I notice you started another one. btw someone was admonishing someone else about cutting & pasting stuff. But I guess some people have exclusive rights over Ctrl-V. [sigh]

 

The Srimad Bhagavatam states the following regarding bhakti and liberation:

salokya-sarshti-samipya-

sarupyaikatvam apy uta

diyamanam na grihnanti

vina mat-sevanam janah

 

"A devotee does not accept any kind of liberation--salokya, sarshti, samipya, sarupya or ekatva--even though they are offered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, if they are devoid of the Lord's service."

This verse has been and is still being used by some, to con people. Details follow.

 

The verse number is 3.29.13. The topic is Kapilopadesha. Kapila the sage, instructs his mother on Sankya yoga. Here the sage is describing the Sattvika devotee and how he gets moksha. However the GVs cleverly pulled out one verse and created a false impression. But of course, they were masters at this technique and had cultivated it into a fine art. And since when did Gaudiyas begin to borrow from Sankya?

 

Instead of typing out a lot of stuff, I direct interested readers to read that chapter in the SB. It is as clear as can be, that this verse is being misused by some.

 

This clearly establishes bhakti as the ultimate goal beyond mukti, or liberation.

Unfortunately, it does not. But to interpret it your way, certainly establishes that you are going against Krishna's teachings as I have already posted on the other thread.

 

ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas

tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah

aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah

patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah

 

"O Lord, the intelligence of those who think themselves liberated but who have no devotion is impure. Even though they rise to the highest point of liberation by dint of severe penances and austerities, they are sure to fall down again into material existence, for they do not take shelter at Your lotus feet."

Verse number ?

 

"Even though they rise to the highest point of liberation ...they are sure to fall down again into material existence"

 

directly contradicts,

 

The great-souled ones, having attained Me,

have no more birth, which is the abode of

misery and is non-eternal, for they have

attained the highest perfection - BG 8.15.

 

Not to mention a horde of Upanishads, which people here have no use for.

 

Pure devotees do not desire liberation.

 

A pure devotee is one who is liberated.

 

The great devotee Satyavrata Muni has no interest in liberation, nor even in being elevated to Sri Vaikuntha. His only desire is to constantly remember the Lord's form.

Which will place such a state below Moksha. The rest is more or less a repitition of the same old story.

 

Cheers

 

[Gauracandra 1]

It seems to me Shvu that all you are saying is "I'm right, you're wrong". You say that the context of the verse from Srimad Bhagavatam 3.29.13 is wrong but you don't want to explain it. IT JUST IS. Then you tell others to read it and see that you are right. But others have read it and don't see that you are right. So you have established nothing.

 

The rest are just single sentence responses (if that) and also don't establish any points.

 

You close out with:

 

JNDas said:

The great devotee Satyavrata Muni has no interest in liberation, nor even in being elevated to Sri Vaikuntha. His only desire is to constantly remember the Lord's form.

Shvu said:

Which will place such a state below Moksha. The rest is more or less a repitition of the same old story

But again, you never established that. It takes more to establish a point than simply stating your point.

 

Gauracandra

 

[shvu 1]

 

Gauracandra,

 

You are right.

 

Since most people have been exposed to that verse as a single quote, they have not read the whole chapter. So instead of me typing out the whole thing, I figured it would be simpler for people to read it themselves. But I guess it is better for me to type out something to say what exactly my point is. Will type it out later.

 

Which will place such a state below Moksha. The rest is more or less a repitition of the same old story.

 

But again, you never established that. It takes more to establish a point than simply stating your point.

1. Moksha is the ultimate state as mentioned ad infinitum in the Veda. The whole of the Bhagavad Gita is about how one can attain moksha and how it is the ultimate goal that one can reach. I already posted quotes from BG on the other thread to show this.

 

2. This being the case, any other state has to be lower than this state. The devotee who says "Bhakti is better than mukti" has a desire, as was discussed before. Moksha is the ending of all desires.

 

3.Both "Mukti is the ultimate" and "Bhakti is better than Mukti" cannot be true at the same time. The former is based in the Veda as any upanishad will say, while the latter has no scriptural basis.

 

Thus it is obvious that there cannot be anything equal to or superior to Moksha.

 

If someone cames along and says "this is vedic", and yet contradicts the Vedas, how much of value will one attach to it? It is perfectly allright if one says I prefer Bhakti and am not interested in Mukti for that is what our Acharyas teach us. But when one says Bhakti is better than Mukti, thus violating fundamental principles, it is no longer allright. There were also some statements like "mere mukti" and "just mukti", etc. It shows that people have no idea what Mukti is.

 

Cheers

 

[Gauracandra 1]

Could you give me a definition of Mukti?

 

Gauracandra

[shvu 1]

 

Mukti literally means freedom, liberation. A mukta is a liberated one.

 

In this context, it means freedom from the cycle of life and death, resulting in immortality. It is also freedom from pain and pleasure, and absence of desire. I can pull out quotes from the BG and/or the Upanishads, if required.

 

Cheers

[Guest guest]

Dear Shvu

Friend of leyh

Fearless lone husky

on a sliding sleigh

may we have your definition

of bhakti and nirvana too?

 

Best wishes

Talasiga

[Guest guest]

Action is better than precept. An acarya is the one who teaches by his personal actions. In the Gaudiya tradition Sri Caitanya is the topmost acarya to be followed. He is considered the bhakta-avatara Himself.

 

At the end He just had merged Himself into a Deity at Puri. That's to say, He got sayujiya mukti, the kind of moksa that Gaudiyas use to hate.

 

One should argue that He was Bhagavan and therefore He did not actually had attained this kind of mukti. But the same event has repeated itself in the case of Mirabai, who was a great bhakta and has merged into a Deity at Dvaraka.

 

So, brilliant bhaktas had opted to moksa. The worst kind of all kinds of moksa, isvara-sayujiya-mukti as their last activity at the end of their lives.

 

Supposedly Sri Caitanya, Mirabai and others had attained perfection in bhakti. Why did they opt to this kind of moksa?

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

At the end He just had merged Himself into a Deity at Puri. That's to say, He got sayujiya mukti, the kind of moksa that Gaudiyas use to hate.

Your speculation is that He [Chaitanya] attained sayujya-mukti. There is no foundation for such an understanding. God could just as well merge into a toothpick. It really means very little; and certainly means nothing in regards to mukti.

 

[Guest guest]

 

According Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti, a very famous and respectable Gaudiya acarya, there are two kinds of sayujiya-mukti: brahma-sayujiya and isvara-sayujiya. (see Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu)

 

He states that brahma-sayujiya or the union with the non-manifested Brahmam is not so bad as isvara-sayujiya, or the union with Sri Bhagavan's body itself, from where there is no return. He has considered it as a spiritual suicide. Only great demons had attained this kind of moksa, according his thesis and words.

 

Sri Caitanya's divinity is a fact to be proved, and it is accept only by Gaudiyas. Mirabai's divinity is out of question, as no sect has ever postulated her divinity until now. Both had attained the same end, ie, fusion or union with vigraha. Vigraha is the same as Bhagavan's body, therefore both had attained isvara-sayujiya-mukti at the end.

 

This is their precept through their action. So, the aim is not bhakti itself; its something else that is a consequence of the attainment of a high level of bhakti. It was not exactly only prema-bhakti. It was isvara-sayujiya!!!

 

[shvu 1]

 

Dear Shvu

Friend of leyh

Fearless lone husky

on a sliding sleigh

may we have your definition

of bhakti and nirvana too?

Best wishes

Talasiga

O exotic jewel of the iskcon cult

to thou who art sailing smoothly

thru blissful ignorance

 

may I ask why thou an iskconite who art

a scholar in vedanta par excellence

seeks definitions from an ignoramus

with a "short-sighted" view?

it surprises me, O great one

 

may I request thee to explain this

mystery which if not explained, will

cause me many sleepless nights?

 

Thanks,

 

(excuse any mistakes in my ex tempore creation)

 

[Gauracandra 1]

I can't speak for Talasiga, but I think most often discussions fail due to semantics. What you say is mukti, others may have a different view. What you say is bhakti, others may have a different view. So when discussing what is mukti in relation to bhakti, if we do not use common terms, then we will fail to make any progress in discussion. So if you have a definition of bhakti, I'd be interested in that as well, just so as to understand your statements clearer.

 

Gauracandra

[shvu 1]

 

mukti - freedom, liberation [generic]

 

nirvANa - Freedom, liberation [specific] of the soul from material existence.

 

mOksha - same as nirvANa

 

bhakti - Devotion, worship.

 

These are the basic dictionary meanings of these terms.

 

Cheers

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

Here are some specific definitions for these words:

 

mukti:

 

muktir hitvanyatha rupam

sva-rupena vyavasthitih

 

"Mukti is defined as being resituated in one's constitutional spiritual position after giving up all external identities."

 

moksha:

 

moksham vishnv-anghri labham

 

"Moksha is attaining the lotus feet of Lord Vishnu."

 

bhakti:

 

sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam

tat-paratvena nirmalam

hrishikena hrishikesha-

sevanam bhaktir ucyate

 

"When one completely free from all material designations and purified by spiritual focus engages all of his senses in the service of Krishna, the master of the senses, that state is known as bhakti."

 

anyabhilashita-shunyam jnana-karmady-anavritam

anukulyena krishnanu-shilanam bhaktir uttama

 

"One should render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Lord Krishna favorably and without desire for material profit or gain through fruitive activities or philosophical speculation. That is called pure devotional service."

[Maitreya 0]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Action is better than precept. An acarya is the one who teaches by his personal actions. In the Gaudiya tradition Sri Caitanya is the topmost acarya to be followed. He is considered the bhakta-avatara Himself.

 

At the end He just had merged Himself into a Deity at Puri. That's to say, He got sayujiya mukti, the kind of moksa that Gaudiyas use to hate.

 

One should argue that He was Bhagavan and therefore He did not actually had attained this kind of mukti. But the same event has repeated itself in the case of Mirabai, who was a great bhakta and has merged into a Deity at Dvaraka.

 

So, brilliant bhaktas had opted to moksa. The worst kind of all kinds of moksa, isvara-sayujiya-mukti as their last activity at the end of their lives.

 

Supposedly Sri Caitanya, Mirabai and others had attained perfection in bhakti. Why did they opt to this kind of moksa?

 

 

So according to this Lord Caitanya is no more, having merged into the form of Krishna.

 

Lord Caitanya now, according to Professor Satyaraja really accepted sayujiya, liberation.

 

Your question is non sense.A product of an overly active imagination perhaps.

 

I read it several times trying to find another meaning to no avail.

 

 

[Bhaktavasya 0]

After reading this thread over, I'm left wondering what is meant by the expression 'devotonal service begins at liberation'. My understanding is that until we are liberated from false ego, and the desires that keep us from surrendering to Their will, we are still not able to enter into the vast ocean of devotional service.

[atma 0]

I just heard Srila Prabhupada on tape saying that:"Just love Krishna, don't try to understand Him, because that is not possible"

 

I think that sometimes we make our life too complicated trying to understand God in whatever form. It is so simple, just love Him.Definitions or not definitions it doesn't matter because Krsna will still be blue, playing His flute and dancing with the gopis. I think is better to be simple minded than trying to prove scholarship.

[Bhaktavasya 0]

Here's a couple of verses from the Bhagavad Gita that are relevant to the topic of Liberation;

 

B.G. chapter 5 verse 18

 

'When one's intelligence, mind, faith and refuge are all fixed in the Supreme, one becomes cleansed of misgivings through complete knowledge and thus proceeds straight on the path of liberation.'

 

B.G. chapter 5 verse 25

 

'One who is beyond duality and doubt, whose mind is engaged within, who is always working for the welfare of all sentient beings, and who is freed from sins, achieves liberation in the Supreme'.

 

********

 

 

[Guest guest]

Gauracandra:

I can't speak for Talasiga, but I think most often discussions fail due to semantics. What you say is mukti, others may have a different view. What you say is bhakti, others may have a different view. So when discussing what is mukti in relation to bhakti, if we do not use common terms, then we will fail to make any progress in discussion. So if you have a definition of bhakti, I'd be interested in that as well, just so as to understand your statements clearer.

 

Gauracandra

Thank You Gauracandra for this.

How could I have answered Shvu when I am not an iskconite?

Shvu had said:

" may I ask why thou an iskconite who art..... "

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 06-20-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

Here's a couple of verses from the Bhagavad Gita that are relevant to the topic of Liberation;

 

B.G. chapter 5 verse 18

 

'When one's intelligence, mind, faith and refuge are all fixed in the Supreme, one becomes cleansed of misgivings through complete knowledge and thus proceeds straight on the path of liberation.'

SHVU already accepts that Bhakti Marga is a path (marga) of liberation.

 

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

B.G. chapter 5 verse 25

 

'One who is beyond duality and doubt, whose mind is engaged within, who is always working for the welfare of all sentient beings, and who is freed from sins, achieves liberation in the Supreme'.

SHVU's understanding of "liberation in the Supreme" would appear to be fettered by a focus on the the word "liberation" without taking into account "in the Supreme". From all the writings of Shvu, it appears that his interpretation of Moksha and Mukti are based on an understanding of these in the context of the material world, the known (ie freedom from the world).

However the above passage would tend to show that the goal of freedom from material consciousness is freedom in the Supreme.

That freedom in the Supreme must have Infinite range and scope including the Freedom to surrender to Pure Desire and the Freedom to lovingly serve the Supreme Being.

Shvu's position would deny this free Capacity and seeks to constrain divine liberation within a mundane construct, and, by this very position undermines his own promotion of the superiority of Moksha.

 

 

[shvu 1]

 

Here is a sample from the katha upanishad [yajur veda] about the ultimate goal in life, which is to be found in all the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita and in the Srimad Bhagavatam. I am posting a few verses. It is recommended that the Upanishad be studied in full to get the complete picture.

 

(Brahman = Krishna)

 

Yama said: The goal which all the Vedas declare, which all austerities aim at and

which men desire when they lead the life of continence, I will tell you briefly: it is

Om. 1.2.15

 

This syllable Om is indeed Brahman. This syllable is the Highest. 1.2.16

 

If a man is able to realise Brahman here, before the falling asunder of his body, then

he is liberated; if not, he is embodied again in the created worlds. 2.3.4

 

Beyond the Unmanifest is the Person, all pervading and imperceptible. Having realised

Him, the embodied self becomes liberated and attains Immortality. 2.3.8

 

His form is not an object of vision; no one beholds Him with the eye. One can know Him

when He is revealed by the intellect free from doubt and by constant meditation. Those

who know this become immortal. 2.3.9

 

When all the desires that dwell in the heart fall away, then the mortal becomes immortal

and here attains Brahman. 2.3.14

 

Cheers

 

[shvu 1]

 

The above verses show that,

 

1. Liberation is the highest goal declared by the Veda.

 

2. It is a state of absolutely no desires.

 

These were the two main points being discussed in this thread so far. Thus ( x > Mukti) is shown to be an invalid claim. Verses of a similar nature from the Gita, were posted on another thread titled Bhakti, mukti a couple of days back. I will also follow this up with clarification about the Bhagavatam verse of Kapila, soon as I can type it all in.

 

Cheers

 

[Guest guest]

 

That freedom in the Supreme must have Infinite range and scope including the Freedom to surrender to Pure Desire and the Freedom to lovingly serve the Supreme Being. Shvu's position would deny this free Capacity and seeks to constrain divine liberation within a mundane construct, and, by this very position undermines his own promotion of the superiority of Moksha.

 

That is a very nice understanding on mukti, thanx Talasingaji.

 

Some members seems to defend the Christian concept of mukti, something like to get back to Godhead, or to be free from the jada-jagad, avoiding samsara. But mukti has a board understanding that surpass this primary approach.

 

[shvu 1]

 

That is a very nice understanding on mukti, thanx Talasingaji.

Are you looking for "nice" definitions or the true definition as defined in the Sruti?

 

If you are looking for nice definitions, go to www.realization.org, where you will find a list of multi-colored definitions as given by people based on their own "nice" understanding. It would not be half a bad idea for talasiga and others here who have their own neo-definitions, to add them to that list.

 

But if you want the real thing, go study Vedanta (presuming you attach some importance to it). It depends on what you want.

 

Cheers

 

[Guest guest]

 

One may have a nice definition but a null understanding, that's the point.

 

Sruti texts are full of flowery words, but one should seek after its deep realization, not after some dry lexicological definitions.