Guest guest Report post Posted May 5, 2004 Have you ever thought about that? I'm glad to have found this website,I cluld never discuss certain sujects with most christians because i have read and studied the Bhagavatam as wellas the Bible since as far back as as 1975. There are many similaties that I will glady point out if anyone is intersted in this subject. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 6, 2004 Hare Krishna, Please do! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zovall 0 Report post Posted May 7, 2004 I shall enter into more detail, but do you see the simlilarities? For me there is no doubt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 8, 2004 but the bible doesn't say jesus said the first word, it didn't say that jesus was creator, nor that jesus was the first-born... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zovall 0 Report post Posted May 8, 2004 "In the begginning was the word,and word was god,and nothing that was created was not created without the word" First sentence in the gospel of Jonh. You have deduct that. Brahma creates the universe and all entities,but he is already born inside an egg,and vishnu lies in the causal ocean below,too far to even be reached. Brahma meditates and realises his true origin,thus begins to create after. Christians are convinced that Jesus the Christ is God,due to the assumption that creator automatically is the quality of the supreme God,yet Jesus never said he was God, but he did say he was the son. Somewhere in the bible does say he was the first-born of God. Jesus mentions many times God as a separate being "the things that he shows me the same I speak". At another point he says he is one with God, yet oneness implies unity, as two sides make one unity, or as being of one mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 8, 2004 1)Beginning was word - in Vedas, that is Om vibration...and everything created was created by Om vibration (Brahma meditated with the vibration Om also?) - but the Bible indicates that the word is God - which unfortunately goes along with the lower sense of realization (impersonalism) - i think impersonalists reckon Om to be God... 2) OK, I can see the similarity there, Brahma being the first-born material being, Christ being first-born son of God... 3) This is where the difference lies, Jesus says he is one with God...Brahma however we can assume is not one with God... cos he is in material bondage, he is born and dies also...If Jesus is one with God, we can assume this to mean either a) an avatar of God, like Rama is avatar of Vishnu (their will is identical) b) a devotee of God, like Prabhupada (one with God in the sense that he has a intimate relationship with God) c) an avatar of one of Krishna's immediate manifestations? (like Prabhupada says you can never have Krishna without Balarama, his first manifestation) d) Actually, most likely, is that he is a personal manifestation of the impersonal aspect of Krishna? (Just like Radha is personal manifestation of Krishna's energy?) e) Or could be like Caitanya (Radha-Krishna type incarnation)... this is all mental speculation, but my point is he can't be Brahma, cos Brahma is definitely not one with God - he isn't eternal...he dies, just like all of us... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zovall 0 Report post Posted May 9, 2004 Jesus, but not as Jesus,since this implies his human incarnation. All throughout the bible and in the book of revelation, Jesus is crowned as messiah, first-born, redeemer and king of kings, as a pure devotee and as a creator and even redeemer. He is not just your average yogi; he is one of mighty position. I believe he is above even Indra which puts him in the position of Brahma...the names change but the fact that in the gospel he is compared to the word(logos)makes both Brahma and Christ the same. Many say that the God in the garden of Eden was Christ. If Jesus were not Brahma then he would be in competition with Brahma. God (Brahma)creates through the word (om)"let there be light". Jesus is the word, people have been saying,but what does that mean? He personifies the mode of passion which is creativity.Passion creates,goodness maintains,and ignorance destroys. Since Vishnu is above passion,he grants creativity to his sons. When even Brahma cannot kill a demon or solve a problem, he apeases Vishnu, and Vishnu incarnates to alter destiny, or the course of events. Why doesn't Vishnu realize the problem and incarnate without being asked? He is above all distinctions created by the modes, but he listens to his devotees. At one point Brahma did not recognize Krishna, but Krishna (Vishnu)showed Brahama that his power as superior and Brahma recognised him; in the same way that Indra,Varuna and others first fought or opposed Krishna, but later saw that Krishna indeed was the master of masters,even though playing the part of a human being. Brahman then wished to be born as the grass of Vrindavan so that pure devotees could walk over him. So,if Christ is both Brahma and one with God is because he has been evolving and progressing. Isn't that on of the achievements granted to some who strive or meditate on Krishna? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 9, 2004 1) The problem is that althugh Jesus is seen as son of God (can u back up the first-born claim with quote from Bible?) he is not seen as creator...The word (Om) is seen as both creator and God according to the Bible, so there is no distinction made in the Bible between creator and God. 2) I do see what u r saying though, and actually Jesus says he is the only way to heaven, and so he may be incarnation of Indra, since Indra is king of the heavenly planets... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zovall 0 Report post Posted May 9, 2004 "And the word was made flesh and he dwelt among us,but was not recognized"(paraphrased)this is written After "..and the word was God" or a GOD. Indra is the ruler of the heavenly planets,which are more advanced beautiful and where people can live up to 100,00 years,but Brahmaloka is far beyond that and people there could live forever since when the destruction of the wholle universe happens after milllions or billions of years Brahma migrates with his chosen to even higher dimentions.The heavenly planets can be compared to Zeus and the demigods mentioned in mythology.Indra carries the lighting bolt and so does Zeus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 10, 2004 thanks for clearing that up...yeah maybe he was brahma, but its pure mental speculation, cos Prabhupada said Jesus was from Brahmaloka, but not that he was actually Brahma... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 10, 2004 christ is god.. chanting christ or krshna is the same Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 10, 2004 Chanting christ won't get you to Krishna, that's serious rasabhasa. You're making Krishna cringe his mouth. Caitanya would get very mad when he heard rasabhasa. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zovall 0 Report post Posted May 10, 2004 Well...to say that he was from Brahmaloka is enough for me, yet the fact that Christians do consider Christ to be king of kings, word made flesh etc, is enough evidence for me. In India there are not as many temples for Brahma as there are for Vishnu and Siva, why? now also this; the jewish religion started with Abraham (Abraham =a Brahmana). Abram was later changed to Abraham. He almost sacrificed his son allegedly because God told him to do so; but and angel stopped him before he fisished. This in turn was the seed for later, God himslef (Christ,Jesus,Brhama)come and become a sacrifice for all. It is well-know that Gurus can impart grace to disciples or even strangers. This grace is a real manifestation; an energy that cleanses. Christ, because he saw in Abraham a faith that he could be pleased with, decided to redeem mankind and spread his blood as a gift for redemeption. The middle east became Brahma's temple as it were and later the west. The God of the old testament is Christ. When Jesus makes mention of his father, he is not refering to himself in former office, but to Vishnu; that Supreme being that remains a mystery and beyond comprehension,even to himself. His sacrifice would elevate Brahma to even higher authority and closeness to his father. Most Christians would be apalled to even consider this, yet even Paul said "all scripture is God-inspired; good for doctrine and confirmation". No one can get the wholle picture unless he is faithful and adopt the mind of a child... and "believeth all things". East must meet west I believe. It mut start by uniting these two megareligions into one. The average christian has absolutely no idea what God India worships. As usual all the uninformed people have the same cliches to describe what the Hindhus believe and we all know what that is. Even though there may be thousands of Gods, people will grant ultimate omnipotency to either Vishnu or Shiva; but remember, Vishnu Brahma and Shiva are the three mafifestations of the gunas; and like the gunas they are different but in essense they are one...not the same, but one. Together they form ONE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 11, 2004 1) Enough evidence? We cannot interpret scripture, we can only accept what scirpture says explicitly, anything else must come from a pure guru (like Prabhupada) so the best we can do is to conclude that Jesus was from Brahmaloka, we cannot go any further than that, without committing offence to the Lord... 2) how can there be a seed for God? God never comes into being 3) You are misguided in many senses - the reason Brahma is not worshipped is because he is mortal, he is not God...also Brahma is a post to be taken by many different devotees of Krishna... 4) God in the old testament is not Christ - Christ is son of God... 5) Brahma is manifestation of passion, Shiva is manifestation of ignorance...Mahavishnu is above all three modes, he expands himself as Visnu the maintainer... They are not one in the sense that even Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu are not God - God is MahaVishnu/Krishna/Narayana etc... Why? Because Krishna/MahaVishnu/Narayana are all Spiritual expansions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead... Brahma is a material manifestation... Shiva is Shiva tattva (mixture of material and spiritual)... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zovall 0 Report post Posted May 12, 2004 I'm sure you have heard of this.Also everything is krishna. If we were to stop using our minds we would be more like the pharisees and not like the Jesus and chaitanya type. One of the reasons I do not live in the temple is because of that. Think!!!Are there two universes? the one that Brahma created anf the one Christ created? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2004 Think!!! Christ never said he created any universe!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zovall 0 Report post Posted May 12, 2004 If one reads the bible all the way up to Revelation one comes to the conclusion that the God of the old testament and Jesus are one and the same; that's why many see Christ as God and grant him omnipotency, yet they have never heard of Krisna,Mahavushnu,Narayana and about Krishnaloka,therefore for them Christ is the highest God,yet if they search and read, in some places it say he sits at the right hand of God which symbolically can mean differnt things but not absolute power and solitary sovereignity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2004 yes, and those who consider jesus to be God are committing great offence to Jesus himself by not following his own teachings... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zovall 0 Report post Posted May 12, 2004 It's a confusion based on the word God,which has been confused and will be confused for centuries to come. Revelation 7 1AFTER THIS I saw four angels stationed at the four corners of the earth, [1] firmly holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind should blow on the earth or sea or upon any tree.(1) 2Then I saw a second angel coming up from the east (the rising of the sun) and carrying the seal of the living God. And with a loud voice he called out to the four angels who had been given authority and power to injure earth and sea, 3Saying, Harm neither the earth nor the sea nor the trees, until we have sealed the bond servants of our God upon their foreheads.(2) 4And [then] I heard how many were sealed (marked) out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: there were 144,000. 5Twelve thousand were sealed (marked) out of the tribe of Judah, 12,000 of the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 of the tribe of Gad, 6Twelve thousand of the tribe of Asher, 12,000 of the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 of the tribe of Manasseh, 7Twelve thousand of the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 of the tribe of Levi, 12,000 of the tribe of Issachar, 8Twelve thousand of the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 of the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 of the tribe of Benjamin. 9After this I looked and a vast host appeared which no one could count, [gathered out] of every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages. These stood before the throne and before the Lamb; they were attired in white robes, with palm branches in their hands. 10In loud voice they cried, saying, [Our] salvation is due to our God, Who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb [to Them we owe our deliverance]! 11And all the angels were standing round the throne and round the elders [[2] of the heavenly Sanhedrin] and the four living creatures, and they fell prostrate before the throne and worshiped God. 12Amen! (So be it!) they cried. Blessing and glory and majesty and splendor and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and might [be ascribed] to our God to the ages and ages (forever and ever, throughout the eternities of the eternities)! Amen! (So be it!) 13Then, addressing me, one of the elders [[3] of the heavenly Sanhedrin] said, Who are these [people] clothed in the long white robes? And from where have they come? 14I replied, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they who have come out of the great tribulation (persecution), and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.(3) 15For this reason they are [now] before the [very] throne of God and serve Him day and night in His sanctuary (temple); and He Who is sitting upon the throne will protect and spread His tabernacle over and shelter them with His presence. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun smite them, nor any [4] scorching heat.(4) 17For the Lamb Who is in the midst of the throne will be their Shepherd, and He will guide them to the springs of the waters of life; and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.(5) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2004 yo, what point does that actually make? actually it is interesting that they call 'the living God' suggesting the God Christians worship is Brahma, Jesus being one of Brahma's sons from Brahmaloka? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zovall 0 Report post Posted May 12, 2004 A) Jesus is the creator son(and there are many,each with his own universe) as the Uratia book explains is detail. B)Jesus was a son of Brahma,and Brahma was the God who spoke to Abraham and became Yawheh to the jews. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 13, 2004 its still mental speculation, but a) the evidence from bible says son of living god b) prabhupada says he's from brahmaloka so maybe he is one of brahma's sons... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 13, 2004 hey the moderators deleted that stuff about jesus being incarnation of shiva!!! that was interesting... i guess we'll never know....! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BruzWayne 0 Report post Posted May 21, 2004 Are Brahma and Jesus the same individual eternal living entity? I don't know. But I don't think so. Because Lord Brahma lives all the way inside of the material world within the same material body all the way through the 4 ages (satya-yuga, treta-yuga, dvapara-yuga and kali-yuga) and then at the end of kali-yuga Lord Brahma's material body gets destroyed. On the other hand, the material body of Jesus lived for 33 earth years only, then died, then resurrected, then transformed into spiritual body and then returned to heaven or the spiritual world, Krishnaloka I suppose. So my conclusion is that Lord Brahma and Jesus Christ are indeed two different living entities. But that is my opinion of course and wouldn't like to do some arguing about it. Hare Krishna. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 22, 2004 true, but Brahma, by the mercy of Krishna, may be allowed to incarnate himself on the earth. Actually Brahma lives 311 trillion years, he lives through more than just the four ages...he lives through something like 1000 of those cycles...then i think some other soul takes up the post of Brahma for the next 311 trillion years... If Jesus returned to heaven then he cannot be in Krsnaloka, he would be in Brahmaloka...after all, Prabhupada said that's where Jesus is from... Hare Krishna Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
