Vegan perfection and compromise

[Guest guest]

Sadly, thanks to our corrupt Congress, much of the " American made " clothing is

made by slave labor in the Mariana Islands.

http://ncwo-online.org/data/images/resolutiononmarianas.pdf#search='clothing%20m\

ariana%20islands%20delay'

 

 

Kadee M <abbey_road3012 wrote:

I choose American-made products as much as I possibly can. Here in America

people have choices. Other countries, maybe not. But here they do, and we do

have a minimum wage and welfare and all that, so I know whoever made whatever

I'm using isn't starving. Probably quite the opposite!

 

Kadee Sedtal

 

robin koloms wrote: I truly do not mean this to be disrespecful, but do those of

you who work so hard for the rights of animal feel as strongly about humans? Do

you buy fairly traded coffee, chocolate, etc.? Do you buy clothing that is

sweatshop free?

 

 

Mary Borden wrote:

I wanted to know how long a bee's natural life span is and why farmers would

kill bees so I went to:

http://www.honeyflowfarm.com/newsletters/fromourreaders/faq.htm#howlongbeeslive

for an answer. Also checked out

http://experts.about.com/q/Miscellaneous-885/Life-exspectancy.htm.

 

The answer is: Over winter, the worker bees (female honeybees) can live from 4

to 6 months. During the summer they only live 4 to 6 weeks as they literally

" wear " themselves out harvesting honey. The queens can live 2-3 years or more,

although the bees will consider her old after 2 years & try to replace her. The

honeybees start raising drones (the male bees) in spring & since their only

purpose is for reproduction, any still alive in the fall get kicked out to

perish.

 

So, I guess I don't understand where the information comes from about honey

farmers killing bees?

 

-

earthmother

 

Saturday, September 16, 2006 12:40 PM

Re: Vegan perfection and compromise

 

whenever they make that stupid plant comment i always make the point that

plants don't have a central nervous system and therefore do not feel pain.

i really hate that argument; it's just plain ignorant.

 

most commercial honey manufacturers actually DO kill all the bees. they gas

them, and not to sleep, but to death. sometimes they will save the queen.

but bees create honey in cycles. it's impossible to force them to do

differently the way they do cows and chickens. so if they wanted to keep

the bees alive, and overwinter them, then they'd have to leave some honey

for them, and keep them alive, which is more work then they consider it to

be worth, when they can just buy a whole new batch of bees. so most of the

time, honey comes from dead bees, and also there's plenty of pesticide

trapped in the honey itself from the gas they use. so honey is not our

friend. i will very, very occasionally buy honey from a local farmer here

that i know overwinters his bees. and i will occasionally use burt's bees

products (the baby stuff) because i know they overwinter as well. but

overall we try to avoid it, just like we avoid products that use beetles as

coloring agents, etc.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Again, thank you for your thoughtful comments. I have spent many years in

activism (human rights, anti-war, choice, etc.). I became a vegetarian to

lessen my impact on the planet. I don't have a car for the same reason.

 

I am one of those who has criticized animal rights activists for choosing

animals over people. I can't help but think that when there are starving

children just a few miles from my home, it is not right to spend money on

animals.

 

Marla Rose <marla wrote:

I do care just as much for human rights as animal rights. I buy second hand

or sweatshop-free clothing, and only buy fair-trade chocolate. I think that

compassion should be an all-encompassing approach from how we interact with

others to how we spend our dollars. That said, none of us is perfect. We're

trying to do our best. Even if we can't achieve perfection (which I think is

more ego-driven than compassion-driven, probably), that doesn't mean we

should give up trying to make positive change. I've seen too many people

throw up their arms and say, " You know, I'm not going to solve the world's

problems by myself, so I'm not going to do anything. " That's so unfortunate.

Also, I've had many people say to me as a vegan advocate, " Well, what about

the homeless? What about AIDS? " , like my compassion for animals somehow

takes away work toward these other issues. First of all, someone who asks

that, in my opinion, is looking to others to do all the work of the world

and they need to look within. Second, animals cannot speak up for themselves

- not in a way we can understand, anyway - so I feel I need to raise my

voice for them. So, a long rant to your simple question, Robin, but

obviously I've got some strong feelings on this!

 

Peace,

 

Marla

 

 

 

> I truly do not mean this to be disrespectful, but do those of you who work so

> hard for the rights of animal feel as strongly about humans? Do you buy

> fairly traded coffee, chocolate, etc.? Do you buy clothing that is sweatshop

> free?

>

>

> Mary Borden wrote:

> I wanted to know how long a bee's natural life span is and why farmers would

> kill bees so I went to:

> http://www.honeyflowfarm.com/newsletters/fromourreaders/faq.htm#howlongbeesliv

> e for an answer. Also checked out

> http://experts.about.com/q/Miscellaneous-885/Life-exspectancy.htm.

>

> The answer is: Over winter, the worker bees (female honeybees) can live from 4

> to 6 months. During the summer they only live 4 to 6 weeks as they literally

> " wear " themselves out harvesting honey. The queens can live 2-3 years or more,

> although the bees will consider her old after 2 years & try to replace her.

> The honeybees start raising drones (the male bees) in spring & since their

> only purpose is for reproduction, any still alive in the fall get kicked out

> to perish.

>

> So, I guess I don't understand where the information comes from about honey

> farmers killing bees?

>

> -

> earthmother

>

> Saturday, September 16, 2006 12:40 PM

> Re: Vegan perfection and compromise

>

>

>

> whenever they make that stupid plant comment i always make the point that

> plants don't have a central nervous system and therefore do not feel pain.

> i really hate that argument; it's just plain ignorant.

>

> most commercial honey manufacturers actually DO kill all the bees. they gas

> them, and not to sleep, but to death. sometimes they will save the queen.

> but bees create honey in cycles. it's impossible to force them to do

> differently the way they do cows and chickens. so if they wanted to keep

> the bees alive, and overwinter them, then they'd have to leave some honey

> for them, and keep them alive, which is more work then they consider it to

> be worth, when they can just buy a whole new batch of bees. so most of the

> time, honey comes from dead bees, and also there's plenty of pesticide

> trapped in the honey itself from the gas they use. so honey is not our

> friend. i will very, very occasionally buy honey from a local farmer here

> that i know overwinters his bees. and i will occasionally use burt's bees

> products (the baby stuff) because i know they overwinter as well. but

> overall we try to avoid it, just like we avoid products that use beetles as

> coloring agents, etc.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks so much! I'll have to look up some of it since I don't know what it is

(castile soap, for example), but that would be so nice to not bombard us all

with icky chemicals. We only bathe the kids a couple of times a week (we clean

their bottoms often, though) because it dries their skin out so badly. The

vinegar and water wipes seem like a neat idea too. Both of mine get those yeast

infections every time they start growing a new tooth it seems like. We really

have no other choice than to let them run loose without diapers, which of course

ends up in " Nooooo nono nonononononono, use the potty!!! Let's go use the

potty!!! Stop, go to the POTTY!!! " , followed by much cleaning. We will try these

things, especially the laundry detergent. We just got a new kind yesterday,

which I washed our sheets in, and I slept about two hours last night because I

was itching so much. I know good and well it was that new detergent. Anyway,

thanks again- I'm just about to go locate my baking

soda stash so I can re-wash those sheets... and all our clothes, and the rats'

rugs and the dogs' beds... stupid detergent!

 

Kadee Sedtal

 

earthmother <earthmother213 wrote:

well, with the eczema thing, i make sure to make my husband a smoothie

everyday with a few teaspoons of a cold-pressed evening primrose/flax oil

mix. that keeps his skin nice and hydrated from within. when he has

flare-ups (mainly in times of stress or when he's gone swimming or use a

harsh soap), i either buy borage leaves and crush them, or just buy a borage

extract, and mix it with palm oil, and that soothes his skin and stops the

itch-scratch cycle. i'm trying to grow borage myself but i guess it's too

hot here. borgae is really wonderful for eczema. when it gets really bad,

we use a homeopathic. i don't know if you're into that, but here's a link

to different kinds of homeopathics to use for eczema:

 

http://www.publix.com/wellness/notes/Display.do?id=Homeo & childId=Eczema_hm

 

sulphur is most useful for him. we also are very careful about what kinds

of soap we use. i usually try to make my own soap but sometimes i just

don't have the time, so we buy some oil-based stuff from the farmers'

market. just olive, coconut or palm oil with non-drying essential oils.

for hair i use a base of castile soap with olive oil (we both tend to have

dry hair). i add whatever kinds of herbs or essential oils i like, usually

eucalyptus, lavendar, citrus, rose, etc., whatever sounds nice to me at the

time! and that's it, very simple. it takes some getting used to since most

women's hair tends to be " addicted " to conditioner. but i haven't used

conditioner for about a year now and i never have tangles anymore and my

hair is just as soft.

 

for our laundry detergent -- for our clothes i use vinegar and baking soda,

that's it. sometimes i'll throw in some essential oil like citrus or

lavendar or rose for a nice scent. i don't measure or anything, just dump

some in...i'd guess about 1/2 a cup of each. for diapers, i do one rinse

with vinegar, then a second rinse with baking soda and tea tree oil (to

retard bacterial growth). we started doing it this way when my son started

getting really bad rashes from detergent build-up. this way his diapers are

always nice and clean and free of build-up and stinky smells. he had a

yeast infection a few months ago and it was just a mess. so since then i've

used my homemade wipes with 1 c. water + 1 tbsp. vinegar and that keeps his

diaper area from being susceptible to yeast from his poop. (we had problems

with this because we don't have a car, so i'd take him on the bus or train

and wouldn't be able to change him fast enough. so sometimes he'd have to

sit in yucky diapers and that's how he started getting infections.)

 

hope that helps!

 

[Guest guest]

Ah, fantastic. Why can't people just be nice and honest and good???????

 

Kadee Sedtal

 

robin koloms <rkoloms wrote: Sadly,

thanks to our corrupt Congress, much of the " American made " clothing is made by

slave labor in the Mariana Islands.

http://ncwo-online.org/data/images/resolutiononmarianas.pdf#search='clothing%20m\

ariana%20islands%20delay'

 

 

Kadee M <abbey_road3012 wrote:

I choose American-made products as much as I possibly can. Here in America

people have choices. Other countries, maybe not. But here they do, and we do

have a minimum wage and welfare and all that, so I know whoever made whatever

I'm using isn't starving. Probably quite the opposite!

 

Kadee Sedtal

 

robin koloms wrote: I truly do not mean this to be disrespecful, but do those

of you who work so hard for the rights of animal feel as strongly about humans?

Do you buy fairly traded coffee, chocolate, etc.? Do you buy clothing that is

sweatshop free?

 

Mary Borden wrote:

I wanted to know how long a bee's natural life span is and why farmers would

kill bees so I went to:

http://www.honeyflowfarm.com/newsletters/fromourreaders/faq.htm#howlongbeeslive

for an answer. Also checked out

http://experts.about.com/q/Miscellaneous-885/Life-exspectancy.htm.

 

The answer is: Over winter, the worker bees (female honeybees) can live from 4

to 6 months. During the summer they only live 4 to 6 weeks as they literally

" wear " themselves out harvesting honey. The queens can live 2-3 years or more,

although the bees will consider her old after 2 years & try to replace her. The

honeybees start raising drones (the male bees) in spring & since their only

purpose is for reproduction, any still alive in the fall get kicked out to

perish.

 

So, I guess I don't understand where the information comes from about honey

farmers killing bees?

 

-

earthmother

Saturday, September 16, 2006 12:40 PM

Re: Vegan perfection and compromise

 

whenever they make that stupid plant comment i always make the point that

plants don't have a central nervous system and therefore do not feel pain.

i really hate that argument; it's just plain ignorant.

 

most commercial honey manufacturers actually DO kill all the bees. they gas

them, and not to sleep, but to death. sometimes they will save the queen.

but bees create honey in cycles. it's impossible to force them to do

differently the way they do cows and chickens. so if they wanted to keep

the bees alive, and overwinter them, then they'd have to leave some honey

for them, and keep them alive, which is more work then they consider it to

be worth, when they can just buy a whole new batch of bees. so most of the

time, honey comes from dead bees, and also there's plenty of pesticide

trapped in the honey itself from the gas they use. so honey is not our

friend. i will very, very occasionally buy honey from a local farmer here

that i know overwinters his bees. and i will occasionally use burt's bees

products (the baby stuff) because i know they overwinter as well. but

overall we try to avoid it, just like we avoid products that use beetles as

coloring agents, etc.

 

[Guest guest]

I believe we should all be considered equal. My rescue dogs and rescue rats I

believe are as worthy of my money as anyone else. It's not that I'm putting them

before humans, just instead of giving many small gifts I choose to give one big

one. Instead of putting the money I spend on our dogs and rodents into something

that would be only a small portion of that needed to, say, feed homeless people,

I choose to completely eliminate the problems of a few individuals. Where I

might be able to solve one of a person's many problems for a few hours, I can

provide for a rat's complete happiness- room to run, food, water, vet care,

companionship, entertainment, safety- for a whole month. We all have our

different ways of helping. What I do is right, and if someone chooses instead to

help give one meal to a hungry person, they are also right. Either way there is

just that much less suffering in the world.

 

Kadee Sedtal

 

robin koloms <rkoloms wrote: Again,

thank you for your thoughtful comments. I have spent many years in activism

(human rights, anti-war, choice, etc.). I became a vegetarian to lessen my

impact on the planet. I don't have a car for the same reason.

 

I am one of those who has criticized animal rights activists for choosing

animals over people. I can't help but think that when there are starving

children just a few miles from my home, it is not right to spend money on

animals.

 

Marla Rose <marla wrote:

I do care just as much for human rights as animal rights. I buy second hand

or sweatshop-free clothing, and only buy fair-trade chocolate. I think that

compassion should be an all-encompassing approach from how we interact with

others to how we spend our dollars. That said, none of us is perfect. We're

trying to do our best. Even if we can't achieve perfection (which I think is

more ego-driven than compassion-driven, probably), that doesn't mean we

should give up trying to make positive change. I've seen too many people

throw up their arms and say, " You know, I'm not going to solve the world's

problems by myself, so I'm not going to do anything. " That's so unfortunate.

Also, I've had many people say to me as a vegan advocate, " Well, what about

the homeless? What about AIDS? " , like my compassion for animals somehow

takes away work toward these other issues. First of all, someone who asks

that, in my opinion, is looking to others to do all the work of the world

and they need to look within. Second, animals cannot speak up for themselves

- not in a way we can understand, anyway - so I feel I need to raise my

voice for them. So, a long rant to your simple question, Robin, but

obviously I've got some strong feelings on this!

 

Peace,

 

Marla

 

> I truly do not mean this to be disrespectful, but do those of you who work so

> hard for the rights of animal feel as strongly about humans? Do you buy

> fairly traded coffee, chocolate, etc.? Do you buy clothing that is sweatshop

> free?

>

>

> Mary Borden wrote:

> I wanted to know how long a bee's natural life span is and why farmers would

> kill bees so I went to:

>

http://www.honeyflowfarm.com/newsletters/fromourreaders/faq.htm#howlongbeesliv

> e for an answer. Also checked out

> http://experts.about.com/q/Miscellaneous-885/Life-exspectancy.htm.

>

> The answer is: Over winter, the worker bees (female honeybees) can live from

4

> to 6 months. During the summer they only live 4 to 6 weeks as they literally

> " wear " themselves out harvesting honey. The queens can live 2-3 years or

more,

> although the bees will consider her old after 2 years & try to replace her.

> The honeybees start raising drones (the male bees) in spring & since their

> only purpose is for reproduction, any still alive in the fall get kicked out

> to perish.

>

> So, I guess I don't understand where the information comes from about honey

> farmers killing bees?

>

> -

> earthmother

>

> Saturday, September 16, 2006 12:40 PM

> Re: Vegan perfection and compromise

>

>

>

> whenever they make that stupid plant comment i always make the point that

> plants don't have a central nervous system and therefore do not feel pain.

> i really hate that argument; it's just plain ignorant.

>

> most commercial honey manufacturers actually DO kill all the bees. they gas

> them, and not to sleep, but to death. sometimes they will save the queen.

> but bees create honey in cycles. it's impossible to force them to do

> differently the way they do cows and chickens. so if they wanted to keep

> the bees alive, and overwinter them, then they'd have to leave some honey

> for them, and keep them alive, which is more work then they consider it to

> be worth, when they can just buy a whole new batch of bees. so most of the

> time, honey comes from dead bees, and also there's plenty of pesticide

> trapped in the honey itself from the gas they use. so honey is not our

> friend. i will very, very occasionally buy honey from a local farmer here

> that i know overwinters his bees. and i will occasionally use burt's bees

> products (the baby stuff) because i know they overwinter as well. but

> overall we try to avoid it, just like we avoid products that use beetles as

> coloring agents, etc.

>

>

[Guest guest]

i was just going to say...don't assume that just because it's american-made

it's not sweatshop labor. don't forget immigrant exploitation. my eyes

were opened wide after reading david shipley's " the working poor. " the

garment districts in new york and la are not honestly much better than

places like bangladesh and signapore...they may not have child labor, but

that's their only advantage.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

This has been a really fascinating thread. It raises one question for me

-- at what point, then, can we call ourselves vegan? What's the

deal-breaker -- if I still use honey but do not consume other animal

products, am I vegan? If I consume no animal products whatsoever but

still wear wool and sleep with a goose-down comforter, am I vegan? Where

is the line?

 

I've known people who call themselves " vegetarian " because they don't

eat red meat. But I think just being vegetarian is much easier to

define. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

 

Also interesting because, around here, some people think I'm a bit of a

wacko for the way my family eats and the choices we make (not using the

commercial cleaning products etc. too) -- and I'm not nearly as advanced

as some of you! :-) But working on it...

Heather

 

Kadee M wrote:

>

> Very cool. I've never really thought of it that way. I do what I can,

> and I avoid all I can that's bad, but that's a really neat way to

> think of it and discuss it with people. Thanks for that!

>

> Kadee Sedtal

>

> leena <leena <leena%40rochester.rr.com>>

> wrote: I just wanted to add to the discussion on wool/beeswax etc. It

> is always

> important to keep in mind why you are vegan. I am vegan so as to

> reduce the

> gross and obvious horrific suffering of feeling animals. So I don't eat

> meat, dairy, eggs, fish. I am not vegan so as to reach some kind of

> spiritual karma of perfection in my own body. I aspire to show others how

> easy and delicious it is to be vegan. Meaning: that it is easy and

> important

> to not eat animals and their products. I do not worry about the last

> .5% of

> ingredients. Billions of animals die each year to supply our plates with

> meat and milk and eggs. If you could convince many people to cut out the

> meat, milk and eggs from their diet, it would save far more animals

> than if

> you and a few others were 100%vegan down to the last bit of bone char,

> honey

> and beeswax.

>

> So, no, I will not tolerate wool in any form. The suffering of sheep

> in the

> vast majority of wool production farms is enormous and I cannot support

> that. But beeswax, while I certainly don't go out of my way to buy it, is

> not a dealbreaker for me. For example, at a La Leche League meeting I used

> to attend regularly, another member specially made muffins for my daughter

> and me to eat. She proudly told me she had replaced the eggs and the

> dairy.

> But then suddenly her face fell as she realized that she had used a little

> bit of honey in her recipe. I don't think it would have helped the animals

> at all for me to have said, " Oh thanks, but I won't eat them then. " The

> suffering of honeybees is certainly worth attention, but no one can

> deny the

> heartbreaking suffering of laying hens, discarded male chicks, dairy cows

> and their babies; it is usually only because people do not know how bad it

> really is that they continue to support it. So while I would not bake

> muffins in my own home with honey in them, I have no problem eating foods

> with some honey in them occasionally.

>

> Vegan Outreach has a great article on this also:

> http://www.veganoutreach.org/howvegan.html

> <http://www.veganoutreach.org/howvegan.html>

>

> Also, here is an excerpt from another article on their site:

>

> Potential Vegan (PV): Oh, so you're a vegan. I know someone else who is

> vegan. You know, I really think it's terrible how they treat the animals,

> but I could never do it. Animal products are in everything, aren't they?

>

> Vegan: They are in a lot of things. But you figure out what you can and

> can't eat and then it becomes easier.

>

> PV: It just takes too much discipline for me.

>

> Vegan: I could give you a list of the names of all the different possible

> animal ingredients. There's less than 10,000 of them! And I can give you a

> list of 500 companies and whether they test on animals or not. It's not so

> bad. Hey, where are you going?

>

> Now our answer goes:

>

> Vegan: To me, veganism is not about personal purity, but a way to stop

> suffering. You don't have to avoid every animal product, just the obvious

> ones for which an animal was bred, raised, and eventually killed. Some

> vegans avoid all they can as a symbolic gesture, but minuscule amounts of

> animal products or by-products will fade away as the meat, dairy, and egg

> industries fade.

>

> Sometimes a potential vegan will say, " I could just never give up ice

> cream

> (or cheese, etc.). " Some vegans now reply, " Then give up everything

> but ice

> cream. " These types of reactions will often surprise the potential

> vegan and

> make them realize that veganism is not about making yourself pure, but

> about

> doing what you can to stop suffering.

 

>

> Get on board. You're invited to try the new Mail.

>

>

[Guest guest]

They ought to make it like a video game- " I'm a level two vegan. " " Oh, well I

just leveled up to a level 4 vegetarian. "

On a serious note, I am very offended when people claim to be vegetarian but

still eat chicken or fish. They're just in it for the attention, I think. I

think the line lies in the amount of effort put forth. If a person uses no

animal products but wears a wool something from a thrift shop- there's a vegan.

I think a true vegan is the person who thinks all things through and makes every

practical attempt to not use animal products unless it's something like a wool

something from a thrift shop or something like that. Anybody heard of Jainism?

Those people don't even eat after dark in case a bug has flown into their food.

Level 10 vegan. Game won.

 

Kadee Sedtal, wife of a nerd who plays video games

 

Hossfeld Family <jhr wrote: This

has been a really fascinating thread. It raises one question for me

-- at what point, then, can we call ourselves vegan? What's the

deal-breaker -- if I still use honey but do not consume other animal

products, am I vegan? If I consume no animal products whatsoever but

still wear wool and sleep with a goose-down comforter, am I vegan? Where

is the line?

 

I've known people who call themselves " vegetarian " because they don't

eat red meat. But I think just being vegetarian is much easier to

define. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

 

Also interesting because, around here, some people think I'm a bit of a

wacko for the way my family eats and the choices we make (not using the

commercial cleaning products etc. too) -- and I'm not nearly as advanced

as some of you! :-) But working on it...

Heather

 

Kadee M wrote:

>

> Very cool. I've never really thought of it that way. I do what I can,

> and I avoid all I can that's bad, but that's a really neat way to

> think of it and discuss it with people. Thanks for that!

>

> Kadee Sedtal

>

> leena <leena <leena%40rochester.rr.com>>

> wrote: I just wanted to add to the discussion on wool/beeswax etc. It

> is always

> important to keep in mind why you are vegan. I am vegan so as to

> reduce the

> gross and obvious horrific suffering of feeling animals. So I don't eat

> meat, dairy, eggs, fish. I am not vegan so as to reach some kind of

> spiritual karma of perfection in my own body. I aspire to show others how

> easy and delicious it is to be vegan. Meaning: that it is easy and

> important

> to not eat animals and their products. I do not worry about the last

> .5% of

> ingredients. Billions of animals die each year to supply our plates with

> meat and milk and eggs. If you could convince many people to cut out the

> meat, milk and eggs from their diet, it would save far more animals

> than if

> you and a few others were 100%vegan down to the last bit of bone char,

> honey

> and beeswax.

>

> So, no, I will not tolerate wool in any form. The suffering of sheep

> in the

> vast majority of wool production farms is enormous and I cannot support

> that. But beeswax, while I certainly don't go out of my way to buy it, is

> not a dealbreaker for me. For example, at a La Leche League meeting I used

> to attend regularly, another member specially made muffins for my daughter

> and me to eat. She proudly told me she had replaced the eggs and the

> dairy.

> But then suddenly her face fell as she realized that she had used a little

> bit of honey in her recipe. I don't think it would have helped the animals

> at all for me to have said, " Oh thanks, but I won't eat them then. " The

> suffering of honeybees is certainly worth attention, but no one can

> deny the

> heartbreaking suffering of laying hens, discarded male chicks, dairy cows

> and their babies; it is usually only because people do not know how bad it

> really is that they continue to support it. So while I would not bake

> muffins in my own home with honey in them, I have no problem eating foods

> with some honey in them occasionally.

>

> Vegan Outreach has a great article on this also:

> http://www.veganoutreach.org/howvegan.html

> <http://www.veganoutreach.org/howvegan.html>

>

> Also, here is an excerpt from another article on their site:

>

> Potential Vegan (PV): Oh, so you're a vegan. I know someone else who is

> vegan. You know, I really think it's terrible how they treat the animals,

> but I could never do it. Animal products are in everything, aren't they?

>

> Vegan: They are in a lot of things. But you figure out what you can and

> can't eat and then it becomes easier.

>

> PV: It just takes too much discipline for me.

>

> Vegan: I could give you a list of the names of all the different possible

> animal ingredients. There's less than 10,000 of them! And I can give you a

> list of 500 companies and whether they test on animals or not. It's not so

> bad. Hey, where are you going?

>

> Now our answer goes:

>

> Vegan: To me, veganism is not about personal purity, but a way to stop

> suffering. You don't have to avoid every animal product, just the obvious

> ones for which an animal was bred, raised, and eventually killed. Some

> vegans avoid all they can as a symbolic gesture, but minuscule amounts of

> animal products or by-products will fade away as the meat, dairy, and egg

> industries fade.

>

> Sometimes a potential vegan will say, " I could just never give up ice

> cream

> (or cheese, etc.). " Some vegans now reply, " Then give up everything

> but ice

> cream. " These types of reactions will often surprise the potential

> vegan and

> make them realize that veganism is not about making yourself pure, but

> about

> doing what you can to stop suffering.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Get on board. You're invited to try the new Mail.

>

>

[Guest guest]

SO what you are saying is that it's okay to buy stuff from people who have

enough to eat, not from the starving? I have been to third world countries.

These people need their jobs! They are happy to have their jobs. Sure, someone

is making more money than he should, but without their sweatshop jobs, these

people would starve to death.

Re: Vegan perfection and compromise

</message/11622;_ylc=X3oDMTJyMHBncTRjBF9\

TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzIwNzQ4NjkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDQyMDU0BG1zZ0lkAzExNjIyBHNlYwN\

kbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExNTg2MTAxMTY->

Posted by: " Kadee M " abbey_road3012

<abbey_road3012?Subject= Re: Vegan perfection and compromise>

abbey_road3012 <http://profiles./abbey_road3012>

Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:12 am (PST)

I choose American-made products as much as I possibly can. Here in America

people have choices. Other countries, maybe not. But here they do, and we do

have a minimum wage and welfare and all that, so I know whoever made whatever

I'm using isn't starving. Probably quite the opposite!

 

 

[Guest guest]

i'm sorry, but as long as companies know that they can continue to exploit

workers and people will continue looking the other way and buying their

crap, they will continue to exploit workers. i cannot give my money to

exploitative companies -- especially when 99.9% of the money i pay for

something goes to the company itself and not to the worker. does that make

sense? i understand the argument you are making but i just can't agree that

it's ok to continue financially supporting the cycle. only when companies

learn that they have to provide a living wage and not use slave labor will

things change, and as long as we keep blindly giving our money to them,

they'll merrily plug away at what they've done all along. if you don't

think this is true, look at costco. they actually listened to what people

said and now they pay their workers way beyond the living wage -- most

people start at $15 or $16 dollars an hour, they get health insurance from

the start, and they are making an effort to reduce their distribution of

things produced through slave labor. it's not a perfect system and someone

is always going to suffer. but i refuse to continue supporting corporate

welfare so they can exploit the little guy. it has to stop somewhere.

 

on what really constitutes a vegan...hm. i tell people all the time,

veganism is not just a diet; it's a lifestyle. but i think it could just be

a diet. so i guess there could be two different headings -- people who are

diet vegan and don't eat animal products, and people who are lifestyle vegan

and don't use animal products in anything. of course i guess there are lots

of little subsets. there are people who are so loose about it, they don't

even care that much about by-products -- they just avoid " first-tier " animal

products like dairy, meat, and eggs. and then there is the other extreme,

people who won't have insulation in their houses or who think that having a

rescued companion animal is abusive -- people who DO torture themselves

every minute about what is and is not pure...and who torture everyone else,

too. i call these people " the vegan police " and they drive me crazy!

just as a warning.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Do you know if this would work for psoriasis too? After months of

holding out I finally gave in and got an ointment prescription for

my psoriasis from my dr. But somehow putting steroids on my skin

that can thin my skin out if used too much is not my idea of the

best treatment. I did buy a yoga for skin health video too but

havent had the time to try it yet.

 

, earthmother <earthmother213

wrote:

>

> well, with the eczema thing, i make sure to make my husband a

smoothie

> everyday with a few teaspoons of a cold-pressed evening

primrose/flax oil

> mix. that keeps his skin nice and hydrated from within. when he

has

> flare-ups (mainly in times of stress or when he's gone swimming or

use a

> harsh soap), i either buy borage leaves and crush them, or just

buy a borage

> extract, and mix it with palm oil, and that soothes his skin and

stops the

> itch-scratch cycle. i'm trying to grow borage myself but i guess

it's too

> hot here. borgae is really wonderful for eczema. when it gets

really bad,

> we use a homeopathic. i don't know if you're into that, but

here's a link

> to different kinds of homeopathics to use for eczema:

>

> http://www.publix.com/wellness/notes/Display.do?

id=Homeo & childId=Eczema_hm

[Guest guest]

I try to buy American made things whenever possible since we have choices and I

know that whoever made whatever it is wasn't abused. However, someone has said

now that even American-made things are sometimes made in whatever territory or

something, and the rules don't apply there or something. Anyway- when we support

abusive businesses, we support the abuse. Maybe someone needs the job- they've

got the rest of our country buying their product! I don't like the idea of

supporting abuse. Even as vegetarians/vegans, how many packages of meat or milk

have gone in the trash because we didn't buy them? We just make choices based on

what our consciences can handle. I wouldn't feel right about buying anything

that promoted the abuse of anyone. Animals killed for meat are abused- so are

people who are forced to work themselves ragged for next to nothing. Just what I

feel is best for us. Plus most of our clothes come from ebay or garage sales

anyway, so it's not an issue.

 

Kadee Sedtal

 

Sadie Bonilla <iammykidsmama wrote:

SO what you are saying is that it's okay to buy stuff from people who have

enough to eat, not from the starving? I have been to third world countries.

These people need their jobs! They are happy to have their jobs. Sure, someone

is making more money than he should, but without their sweatshop jobs, these

people would starve to death.

Re: Vegan perfection and compromise

</message/11622;_ylc=X3oDMTJyMHBncTRjBF9\

TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzIwNzQ4NjkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDQyMDU0BG1zZ0lkAzExNjIyBHNlYwN\

kbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExNTg2MTAxMTY->

Posted by: " Kadee M " abbey_road3012

<abbey_road3012?Subject= Re: Vegan perfection and compromise>

abbey_road3012 <http://profiles./abbey_road3012>

Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:12 am (PST)

I choose American-made products as much as I possibly can. Here in America

people have choices. Other countries, maybe not. But here they do, and we do

have a minimum wage and welfare and all that, so I know whoever made whatever

I'm using isn't starving. Probably quite the opposite!

 

[Guest guest]

My mom used to get terrible psorriasis (in the late '60s and early '70s). Her

doctor told her that it was stress related and she should yell at her kids once

in a while. He turned out to be right.

 

You may want to look into stress management...

 

smartgirl27us <thesmartfamily3 wrote:

Do you know if this would work for psoriasis too? After months of

holding out I finally gave in and got an ointment prescription for

my psoriasis from my dr. But somehow putting steroids on my skin

that can thin my skin out if used too much is not my idea of the

best treatment. I did buy a yoga for skin health video too but

havent had the time to try it yet.

 

, earthmother

wrote:

>

> well, with the eczema thing, i make sure to make my husband a

smoothie

> everyday with a few teaspoons of a cold-pressed evening

primrose/flax oil

> mix. that keeps his skin nice and hydrated from within. when he

has

> flare-ups (mainly in times of stress or when he's gone swimming or

use a

> harsh soap), i either buy borage leaves and crush them, or just

buy a borage

> extract, and mix it with palm oil, and that soothes his skin and

stops the

> itch-scratch cycle. i'm trying to grow borage myself but i guess

it's too

> hot here. borgae is really wonderful for eczema. when it gets

really bad,

> we use a homeopathic. i don't know if you're into that, but

here's a link

> to different kinds of homeopathics to use for eczema:

>

> http://www.publix.com/wellness/notes/Display.do?

id=Homeo & childId=Eczema_hm

 

 

 

 

 

 

For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at

http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families go to

http://www.vrg.org/family.This is a discussion list and is not intended to

provide personal medical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a

qualified health professional.

 

edical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a qualified health

professional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

i have no idea if it would work for psoriasis; they are similar conditions,

aren't they? i suppose it's worth a try! i know there's a homeopathic skin

cream called psoriaflora, you might try that.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

it's definitely stress-related for my husband too. that's why homeopathics

can be so useful. for my husband, he had the worst flare-up of his life all

summer long. he wouldn't be able to sleep at night for all his itching and

scratching and burning, he couldn't go swimming, he was too humilated by his

skin to wear normal clothes. i did everything i could to help him, i worked

on his skin for hours every day, and nothing helped, none of the traditional

remedies we used and nothing new. he was out of work practically all

summer; just temp jobs here and there, but it was a really hard summer for

us financially and he felt awful about it. then he started teaching again

two weeks ago and just like that, his flare-up is over.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I had horrible psoriasis in Junior High and it went away when I became a

vegetarian at fifteen. At around the same time, a lot of the stress/anxiety

I had been feeling was alleviated. I would say to look into stress

reduction, and I don't know if you're vegan or not, but I seem to remember

reading that dairy contributes to psoriasis.

 

Best of luck!

 

Marla

 

> Do you know if this would work for psoriasis too? After months of

> holding out I finally gave in and got an ointment prescription for

> my psoriasis from my dr. But somehow putting steroids on my skin

> that can thin my skin out if used too much is not my idea of the

> best treatment. I did buy a yoga for skin health video too but

> havent had the time to try it yet.

>

> , earthmother <earthmother213

> wrote:

>>

>> well, with the eczema thing, i make sure to make my husband a

> smoothie

>> everyday with a few teaspoons of a cold-pressed evening

> primrose/flax oil

>> mix. that keeps his skin nice and hydrated from within. when he

> has

>> flare-ups (mainly in times of stress or when he's gone swimming or

> use a

>> harsh soap), i either buy borage leaves and crush them, or just

> buy a borage

>> extract, and mix it with palm oil, and that soothes his skin and

> stops the

>> itch-scratch cycle. i'm trying to grow borage myself but i guess

> it's too

>> hot here. borgae is really wonderful for eczema. when it gets

> really bad,

>> we use a homeopathic. i don't know if you're into that, but

> here's a link

>> to different kinds of homeopathics to use for eczema:

>>

>> http://www.publix.com/wellness/notes/Display.do?

> id=Homeo & childId=Eczema_hm

For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at

> http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families go to

> http://www.vrg.org/family.This is a discussion list and is not intended to

> provide personal medical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a

> qualified health professional.

>

> edical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a qualified health

> professional.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, I have heard that it can be stress related. But I have had it

since I was a teanager and I wasn't really very stressed back then so

I think it is more than that. Interestingly, the only two times that

it has 100% cleared up (with no medication) was during my two

pregnancies. From about a month into my pregnancy until about a month

after they were born. Maybe I should just keep getting pregnant all

the time - viola I'm cured!

 

, robin koloms <rkoloms wrote:

>

> My mom used to get terrible psorriasis (in the late '60s and

early '70s). Her doctor told her that it was stress related and she

should yell at her kids once in a while. He turned out to be right.

>

> You may want to look into stress management...

[Guest guest]

Does hemp oil help? I saw Earthmother suggested other omegas

(primrose/flax) for eczema. I can't remember which it is I have. But

hemp oil really helps. And if I every learn to relax, I will let you

know if stress relief works ...

 

Re sweat shops -- there are lots of good reasons to buy local. People in

other lands managed for milennia without being our sweatshop slaves. So,

I think the less we interfere in their economy the better.

 

~P

 

robin koloms wrote:

> My mom used to get terrible psorriasis (in the late '60s and early '70s). Her

doctor told her that it was stress related and she should yell at her kids once

in a while. He turned out to be right.

>

> You may want to look into stress management...

>

> smartgirl27us <thesmartfamily3 wrote:

> Do you know if this would work for psoriasis too? After months of

> holding out I finally gave in and got an ointment prescription for

> my psoriasis from my dr. But somehow putting steroids on my skin

> that can thin my skin out if used too much is not my idea of the

> best treatment. I did buy a yoga for skin health video too but

> havent had the time to try it yet.

>

> , earthmother

> wrote:

>

>>well, with the eczema thing, i make sure to make my husband a

>

> smoothie

>

>>everyday with a few teaspoons of a cold-pressed evening

>

> primrose/flax oil

[Guest guest]

As to the whole vegan honey thing...I joked with someone the other day that

sometimes I do eat honey...I guess I'm really a beegan!

Vegetarians are sprouting up all over.