Jump to content
IndiaDivine.org
Sign in to follow this  
Guest guest

Vegan perfection and compromise

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Guest guest

I just wanted to add to the discussion on wool/beeswax etc. It is always

important to keep in mind why you are vegan. I am vegan so as to reduce the

gross and obvious horrific suffering of feeling animals. So I don't eat

meat, dairy, eggs, fish. I am not vegan so as to reach some kind of

spiritual karma of perfection in my own body. I aspire to show others how

easy and delicious it is to be vegan. Meaning: that it is easy and important

to not eat animals and their products. I do not worry about the last .5% of

ingredients. Billions of animals die each year to supply our plates with

meat and milk and eggs. If you could convince many people to cut out the

meat, milk and eggs from their diet, it would save far more animals than if

you and a few others were 100%vegan down to the last bit of bone char, honey

and beeswax.

 

So, no, I will not tolerate wool in any form. The suffering of sheep in the

vast majority of wool production farms is enormous and I cannot support

that. But beeswax, while I certainly don't go out of my way to buy it, is

not a dealbreaker for me. For example, at a La Leche League meeting I used

to attend regularly, another member specially made muffins for my daughter

and me to eat. She proudly told me she had replaced the eggs and the dairy.

But then suddenly her face fell as she realized that she had used a little

bit of honey in her recipe. I don't think it would have helped the animals

at all for me to have said, " Oh thanks, but I won't eat them then. " The

suffering of honeybees is certainly worth attention, but no one can deny the

heartbreaking suffering of laying hens, discarded male chicks, dairy cows

and their babies; it is usually only because people do not know how bad it

really is that they continue to support it. So while I would not bake

muffins in my own home with honey in them, I have no problem eating foods

with some honey in them occasionally.

 

Vegan Outreach has a great article on this also:

http://www.veganoutreach.org/howvegan.html

 

Also, here is an excerpt from another article on their site:

 

Potential Vegan (PV): Oh, so you're a vegan. I know someone else who is

vegan. You know, I really think it's terrible how they treat the animals,

but I could never do it. Animal products are in everything, aren't they?

 

Vegan: They are in a lot of things. But you figure out what you can and

can't eat and then it becomes easier.

 

PV: It just takes too much discipline for me.

 

Vegan: I could give you a list of the names of all the different possible

animal ingredients. There's less than 10,000 of them! And I can give you a

list of 500 companies and whether they test on animals or not. It's not so

bad. Hey, where are you going?

 

Now our answer goes:

 

Vegan: To me, veganism is not about personal purity, but a way to stop

suffering. You don't have to avoid every animal product, just the obvious

ones for which an animal was bred, raised, and eventually killed. Some

vegans avoid all they can as a symbolic gesture, but minuscule amounts of

animal products or by-products will fade away as the meat, dairy, and egg

industries fade.

 

Sometimes a potential vegan will say, " I could just never give up ice cream

(or cheese, etc.). " Some vegans now reply, " Then give up everything but ice

cream. " These types of reactions will often surprise the potential vegan and

make them realize that veganism is not about making yourself pure, but about

doing what you can to stop suffering.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Very cool. I've never really thought of it that way. I do what I can, and I

avoid all I can that's bad, but that's a really neat way to think of it and

discuss it with people. Thanks for that!

 

Kadee Sedtal

 

leena <leena wrote: I just

wanted to add to the discussion on wool/beeswax etc. It is always

important to keep in mind why you are vegan. I am vegan so as to reduce the

gross and obvious horrific suffering of feeling animals. So I don't eat

meat, dairy, eggs, fish. I am not vegan so as to reach some kind of

spiritual karma of perfection in my own body. I aspire to show others how

easy and delicious it is to be vegan. Meaning: that it is easy and important

to not eat animals and their products. I do not worry about the last .5% of

ingredients. Billions of animals die each year to supply our plates with

meat and milk and eggs. If you could convince many people to cut out the

meat, milk and eggs from their diet, it would save far more animals than if

you and a few others were 100%vegan down to the last bit of bone char, honey

and beeswax.

 

So, no, I will not tolerate wool in any form. The suffering of sheep in the

vast majority of wool production farms is enormous and I cannot support

that. But beeswax, while I certainly don't go out of my way to buy it, is

not a dealbreaker for me. For example, at a La Leche League meeting I used

to attend regularly, another member specially made muffins for my daughter

and me to eat. She proudly told me she had replaced the eggs and the dairy.

But then suddenly her face fell as she realized that she had used a little

bit of honey in her recipe. I don't think it would have helped the animals

at all for me to have said, " Oh thanks, but I won't eat them then. " The

suffering of honeybees is certainly worth attention, but no one can deny the

heartbreaking suffering of laying hens, discarded male chicks, dairy cows

and their babies; it is usually only because people do not know how bad it

really is that they continue to support it. So while I would not bake

muffins in my own home with honey in them, I have no problem eating foods

with some honey in them occasionally.

 

Vegan Outreach has a great article on this also:

http://www.veganoutreach.org/howvegan.html

 

Also, here is an excerpt from another article on their site:

 

Potential Vegan (PV): Oh, so you're a vegan. I know someone else who is

vegan. You know, I really think it's terrible how they treat the animals,

but I could never do it. Animal products are in everything, aren't they?

 

Vegan: They are in a lot of things. But you figure out what you can and

can't eat and then it becomes easier.

 

PV: It just takes too much discipline for me.

 

Vegan: I could give you a list of the names of all the different possible

animal ingredients. There's less than 10,000 of them! And I can give you a

list of 500 companies and whether they test on animals or not. It's not so

bad. Hey, where are you going?

 

Now our answer goes:

 

Vegan: To me, veganism is not about personal purity, but a way to stop

suffering. You don't have to avoid every animal product, just the obvious

ones for which an animal was bred, raised, and eventually killed. Some

vegans avoid all they can as a symbolic gesture, but minuscule amounts of

animal products or by-products will fade away as the meat, dairy, and egg

industries fade.

 

Sometimes a potential vegan will say, " I could just never give up ice cream

(or cheese, etc.). " Some vegans now reply, " Then give up everything but ice

cream. " These types of reactions will often surprise the potential vegan and

make them realize that veganism is not about making yourself pure, but about

doing what you can to stop suffering.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Get on board. You're invited to try the new Mail.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Hi!

I was first vegan for animal rights reasons. Later it was animal rights and

health reasons. And now its animal rights, health, and Buddhism.

My children have been vegan since birth and are " hard core " . They won't make

compromises. See, as someone who used to eat meat and dairy, I might look

the other way if it was a drop of honey, but somehow I doubt it. But the

kids have found it easy to draw line and keep it that way. They understand

bees aren't killed to get the honey. They also know that some small farms do

have " happy cows and sheep and chickens " but they still don't want to eat

any of it. I would never use the word perfection, but some stuff is just

out! We have a car, so the tires aren't vegan..This is the compromise. We

live 45 minutes away from anything! My husband would like to not have a car,

but soo many things would have to change first.

What drives me nuts is meat and dairy consumers that bring up the fact that

plants are living too! Yeah, I know...What does that have to do with not

eating meat and dairy other than to point out I should just give up

diet??lol.

Just my 2 cents,

Rebecca

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

whenever they make that stupid plant comment i always make the point that

plants don't have a central nervous system and therefore do not feel pain.

i really hate that argument; it's just plain ignorant.

 

most commercial honey manufacturers actually DO kill all the bees. they gas

them, and not to sleep, but to death. sometimes they will save the queen.

but bees create honey in cycles. it's impossible to force them to do

differently the way they do cows and chickens. so if they wanted to keep

the bees alive, and overwinter them, then they'd have to leave some honey

for them, and keep them alive, which is more work then they consider it to

be worth, when they can just buy a whole new batch of bees. so most of the

time, honey comes from dead bees, and also there's plenty of pesticide

trapped in the honey itself from the gas they use. so honey is not our

friend. i will very, very occasionally buy honey from a local farmer here

that i know overwinters his bees. and i will occasionally use burt's bees

products (the baby stuff) because i know they overwinter as well. but

overall we try to avoid it, just like we avoid products that use beetles as

coloring agents, etc.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

<<and i will occasionally use burt's bees products

(the baby stuff)>>

 

Just wanted to point out that many Burt's Bees

products have lanolin in them.

 

Liz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

I wanted to know how long a bee's natural life span is and why farmers would

kill bees so I went to:

http://www.honeyflowfarm.com/newsletters/fromourreaders/faq.htm#howlongbeeslive

for an answer. Also checked out

http://experts.about.com/q/Miscellaneous-885/Life-exspectancy.htm.

 

The answer is: Over winter, the worker bees (female honeybees) can live from 4

to 6 months. During the summer they only live 4 to 6 weeks as they literally

" wear " themselves out harvesting honey. The queens can live 2-3 years or more,

although the bees will consider her old after 2 years & try to replace her. The

honeybees start raising drones (the male bees) in spring & since their only

purpose is for reproduction, any still alive in the fall get kicked out to

perish.

 

So, I guess I don't understand where the information comes from about honey

farmers killing bees?

 

-

earthmother

Saturday, September 16, 2006 12:40 PM

Re: Vegan perfection and compromise

 

 

 

whenever they make that stupid plant comment i always make the point that

plants don't have a central nervous system and therefore do not feel pain.

i really hate that argument; it's just plain ignorant.

 

most commercial honey manufacturers actually DO kill all the bees. they gas

them, and not to sleep, but to death. sometimes they will save the queen.

but bees create honey in cycles. it's impossible to force them to do

differently the way they do cows and chickens. so if they wanted to keep

the bees alive, and overwinter them, then they'd have to leave some honey

for them, and keep them alive, which is more work then they consider it to

be worth, when they can just buy a whole new batch of bees. so most of the

time, honey comes from dead bees, and also there's plenty of pesticide

trapped in the honey itself from the gas they use. so honey is not our

friend. i will very, very occasionally buy honey from a local farmer here

that i know overwinters his bees. and i will occasionally use burt's bees

products (the baby stuff) because i know they overwinter as well. but

overall we try to avoid it, just like we avoid products that use beetles as

coloring agents, etc.

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

#ygrp-mlmsg { FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY:

arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif}#ygrp-mlmsg TABLE { }#ygrp-mlmsg SELECT { FONT:

99% arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif}INPUT { FONT: 99%

arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif}TEXTAREA { FONT: 99%

arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif}#ygrp-mlmsg PRE { FONT: 100% monospace}CODE {

FONT: 100% monospace}#ygrp-mlmsg { LINE-HEIGHT: 1.22em}#ygrp-text {

FONT-FAMILY: Georgia}#ygrp-text P { MARGIN: 0px 0px 1em}#ygrp-tpmsgs { CLEAR:

both; FONT-FAMILY: Arial}#ygrp-vitnav { FONT-SIZE: 77%; MARGIN: 0px;

PADDING-TOP: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana}#ygrp-vitnav A { PADDING-RIGHT: 1px;

PADDING-LEFT: 1px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px}#ygrp-actbar { CLEAR:

both; MARGIN: 25px 0px; COLOR: #666; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap; TEXT-ALIGN:

right}#ygrp-actbar .left { FLOAT: left; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap}..bld { FONT-WEIGHT:

bold}#ygrp-grft { PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 77%;

PADDING-BOTTOM: 15px; PADDING-TOP: 15px; FONT-FAMILY:

Verdana}#ygrp-ft { PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #666 1px solid;

PADDING-LEFT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 77%; PADDING-BOTTOM: 5px; PADDING-TOP: 5px;

FONT-FAMILY: verdana}#ygrp-mlmsg #logo { PADDING-BOTTOM: 10px}#ygrp-vital {

PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 8px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 20px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 8px;

PADDING-TOP: 2px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #e0ecee}#ygrp-vital #vithd { FONT-WEIGHT:

bold; FONT-SIZE: 77%; TEXT-TRANSFORM: uppercase; COLOR: #333; FONT-FAMILY:

Verdana}#ygrp-vital UL { PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM:

0px; MARGIN: 2px 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px}#ygrp-vital UL LI { CLEAR: both;

BORDER-RIGHT: #e0ecee 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0ecee 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT:

#e0ecee 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0ecee 1px solid; LIST-STYLE-TYPE:

none}#ygrp-vital UL LI .ct { PADDING-RIGHT: 0.5em; FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FLOAT:

right; WIDTH: 2em; COLOR: #ff7900; TEXT-ALIGN: right}#ygrp-vital UL LI .cat {

FONT-WEIGHT: bold}#ygrp-vital A { TEXT-DECORATION: none}#ygrp-vital A:hover {

TEXT-DECORATION: underline}#ygrp-sponsor #hd { FONT-SIZE: 77%; COLOR:

#999}#ygrp-sponsor #ov { PADDING-RIGHT: 13px; PADDING-LEFT: 13px; MARGIN-BOTTOM:

20px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 6px; PADDING-TOP: 6px; BACKGROUND-COLOR:

#e0ecee}#ygrp-sponsor #ov UL { PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 8px;

PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px}#ygrp-sponsor #ov LI {

PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 77%; PADDING-BOTTOM: 6px;

PADDING-TOP: 6px; LIST-STYLE-TYPE: square}#ygrp-sponsor #ov LI A { FONT-SIZE:

130%; TEXT-DECORATION: none}#ygrp-sponsor #nc { PADDING-RIGHT: 8px;

PADDING-LEFT: 8px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 20px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px;

BACKGROUND-COLOR: #eee}#ygrp-sponsor .ad { PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT:

0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 8px; PADDING-TOP: 8px}#ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1 { FONT-WEIGHT:

bold; FONT-SIZE: 100%; COLOR: #628c2a; LINE-HEIGHT: 122%; FONT-FAMILY:

Arial}#ygrp-sponsor .ad A { TEXT-DECORATION: none}#ygrp-sponsor .ad A:hover {

TEXT-DECORATION:

underline}#ygrp-sponsor .ad P { MARGIN: 0px}o { FONT-SIZE: 0px}..MsoNormal {

MARGIN: 0px}#ygrp-text TT { FONT-SIZE: 120%}BLOCKQUOTE { MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px

4px}..replbq { }

 

 

Talk is cheap. Use Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates

starting at 1¢/min.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

To me, nothing is more gross than putting petroleum byproducts on skin.

 

earthmother <earthmother213 wrote: yeah, we don't use those. :) i

really think lanolin is gross stuff!

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

What can I use as alternatives to wool diaper covers?

 

We have some wool diaper covers. I feel better using them than plastic

or synthetic. But the wool of course is not vegan and neither is the

lanolin used to treat it.

 

I'll check the vrg website.

 

~Paul

 

 

earthmother wrote:

> yeah, we don't use those. :) i really think lanolin is gross stuff!

 

--

www.mackenziewild.ca

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Burt's Bee's Products also have insect parts . Do we really want to use

products with insects ?

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

If they are really serious about the matter, rather than just pulling

your chain, you can point out that many more plants are killed eating

meat because of the way a cow has to eat 14 pounds of grain to create

one pound of flesh, etc.

 

- Alan

 

 

, earthmother <earthmother213

wrote:

>

> whenever they make that stupid plant comment i always make the point

that

> plants don't have a central nervous system and therefore do not feel

pain.

> i really hate that argument; it's just plain ignorant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

hm...that's really interesting! i guess i better figure out what the crap

i'm talking about! i'm not usually the type to take information at face

value but i won't say it's not possible.

 

ok, i went to downbound and looked up the peta factsheet on bees. here it

is (with resources):

 

Honey: From Factory-Farmed Bees

------------------------------

 

Although there were 3,500 native species of bees pollinating the flowers and

food crops of North America when European settlers landed on its shores in

the 17th century, the colonists were interested only in their Old World

honeybee's wax and honey. So they imported the insects, and by the

mid-1800s, both feral and domesticated colonies of honeybees were scattered

all over the United States.(1) As a result of disease, pesticides, and

climate changes, the honeybee population is now in decline, but since the

demand for honey remains high, these tiny beings are factory- farmed, much

like chickens, pigs, and cows.

 

*The Complex Lives of Bees*

A honeybee hive consists of tens of thousands of bees, each with his or her

own mission that is determined by the bee's sex and age and by the time of

year. Each hive usually has one queen, hundreds of drones, and thousands of

workers. Queens can live for as long as seven years, while other bees have

lifespans ranging from a few weeks to six months.(2)

 

 

Worker bees are responsible for feeding the brood, caring for the queen,

building comb, foraging for nectar and pollen, and cleaning, ventilating,

and guarding the hive. The drones serve the queen, who is responsible for

reproduction. She lays about 250,000 eggs each year—as many as a million

during her lifetime.(3)

 

 

When a new queen is about to be born, the old queen and half the hive leave

their old home and set up in a new place that scouting worker bees have

found.(4)

 

 

As the temperature drops in the winter, the bees cluster around the queen

and the young, using their body heat to keep the temperature inside the hive

steady at around 93°F.(5)

 

*A Language All Their Own*

Bees have a unique and complex form of communication based on sight, motion,

and scent that scientists and scholars still don't fully understand.(6) Bees

alert other members of their hive to food, new hive locations, and

conditions within their hive (such as nectar supply) through intricate

" dance " movements.(7)

 

 

Studies have shown that bees are not only capable of abstract thought, they

are also capable of distinguishing their own family members from other bees

in the hive, using visual cues to map their travels, and finding a

previously used food supply, even when their home has been moved.(8, 9, 10)

And in the same way that smells can invoke powerful memories in humans, bees

use their sense of smell to trigger memories of where the best food can be

found.(11)

 

*Why Bees Need Their Honey

*Plants produce nectar to attract pollinators (bees, butterflies, bats, and

other mammals), who are necessary for successful plant reproduction. Bees

collect and use nectar to make honey, which provides vital nourishment for

them, especially during the winter. Since nectar contains a lot of water,

bees have to work to dry it out, and they add enzymes from their own bodies

to convert it into food and prevent it from going bad.(12) To produce a

pound of honey, bees must get pollen from two million flowers and fly more

than 55,000 miles.(13)

 

*Honeybees Do Not Pollinate as Well as Native Bees*

Approximately one out of every three mouthfuls of food or drink that humans

consume is made possible by pollinators—insects, birds, and mammals

pollinate about 75 percent of all food crops.(14) Industrial beekeepers want

consumers to believe that honey is just a byproduct of the necessary

pollination provided by honeybees, but honeybees are not as good at

pollinating as many truly wild bees, such as bumblebees and carpenter and

digger bees. Native bees are active earlier in the spring, both male and

females pollinate, and they are unaffected by mites and Africanized bees,

which can harm honeybees.(15) But because most species of native bees

hibernate for as many as 11 months out of the year and do not live in large

colonies, they do not produce massive amounts of honey, and what little they

do produce is not worth the effort required to steal it from them.(16, 17)

So although native bees are more effective pollinators, farmers continue to

rely on factory-farmed honeybees for pollination so that the honey industry

can take in more than 170 million pounds of honey every year, at a value of

more than $200 million.(18)

 

*Manipulating Nature

*Profiting from honey requires the manipulation and exploitation of the

insects' desire to live and protect their hive. Like other factory-farmed

animals, honeybees are victims of unnatural living conditions, genetic

manipulation, and stressful transportation.

 

 

The familiar white box that serves as a beehive has been around since the

mid-1850s and was created so that beekeepers could move the hives from place

to place. *The New York Times *reported that bees have been " moved from

shapes that accommodated their own geometry to flat-topped tenements,

sentenced to life in file cabinets. " (19)

 

 

Since " swarming " (the division of the hive upon the birth of a new queen)

can cause a decline in honey production, beekeepers do what they can to

prevent it, including clipping the wings of a new queen, killing and

replacing an older queen after just one or two years, or confining a queen

who is trying to begin a swarm.(20, 21) There are also commercial " queen

rearers " who raise and mail about a million queen bees a year all over North

America. Many of the animals die in transit.(22) Queens are artificially

inseminated using drones, who are killed in the process.(23) Commercial

beekeepers also " trick " queens into laying more eggs by adding wax cells to

the hive that are larger than those that worker bees would normally

build.(24)

 

 

Some farmers kill all the bees in the fall because it's easier than

winterizing the hives. One beekeeper admits that one of his friends " uses

canisters of cyanide gas to exterminate 6,000 colonies of bees at the

conclusion of the production season. It is the most economical way to run

his operation. " (25) Each hive that is left to hibernate through the winter

needs at least 50 pounds of honey to survive, and according to one

entomologist, many bees succumb to improper care, starvation, weakness, and

other problems during the winter.(26)

 

 

Honeybee populations have declined by as much as 50 percent since the 1980s,

partly because of parasitic mites.(27) *BeeCulture* magazine reports that

beekeepers are notorious for contributing to the spread of disease:

" Beekeepers move infected combs from diseased colonies to healthy colonies,

fail to recognize or treat disease, purchase old infected equipment, keep

colonies too close together, [and] leave dead colonies in apiaries. " (28)

Artificial diets, provided because farmers take the honey that bees would

normally eat, leave bees susceptible to sickness and attack from other

insects.(29) When diseases are detected, beekeepers are advised to " destroy

the colony and burn the equipment, " which can mean burning or gassing the

bees to death.(30)

 

 

Since healthy honeybees are becoming harder and harder to find, farmers have

resorted to trucking hives across the country. When asked to examine 2,000

beehives rented by a New Jersey cranberry farmer, retired apiary inspectors

found " about 500 colonies with equipment in such bad shape that [it] would

not even qualify as junk … mice nests, old feeders full of comb, rotten hive

with bees coming out from all over. " The hives were also made of wood that

was labeled as having been treated with arsenic and was, therefore,

unsuitable for beehives.(31)

 

 

Bears are also victims of the honey industry. The government of Maryland

compensates beekeepers for electric fences around hives, and Virginia

beekeepers have asked their legislature to allow them to kill bears.(32)

 

*What You Can Do

*Avoid honey, beeswax, propolis, royal jelly, and other products that come

from bees. Vegan lip balms and candles are readily available. Visit

CaringConsumer.com for a list of companies that don't use animal products.

Rice syrup, molasses, sorghum, barley malt, maple syrup, and dried fruit or

fruit concentrates can be used to replace honey in recipes. Call

1-888-VEG-FOOD or visit GoVeg.com to order a free vegetarian starter kit

that contains information about compassionate eating choices.

 

*Resources*

 

(1)Sue Hubbell, " Trouble With Honeybees, " *Natural History*, 106 (1997):

32-42.

(2) " The Colony and Its

Organization<http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/bkCD/HBBiology/colony_org.html>, "

*Fundamentals of Beekeeping*, Mid-Atlantic Apiculture Research and Extention

Consortium, last accessed 17 May 2004.

(3)*Ibid*.

(4)Norbert M. Kauffeld, " Seasonal Cycles of Activities in Honey Bee

Colonies, " *Beekeeping in the United States*, Agriculture Handbook 335, U.S.

Department of Agriculture, revised Oct. 1980.

(5)*Ibid*.

(6)Fred C. Dyer, " When It Pays to Waggle, " *Nature,* 31 Oct. 2002.

(7)Carl Anderson and Francis L.W. Ratnieks, " Worker Allocation in Insect

Societies: Coordination of Nectar Foragers and Nectar Receivers in Honey Bee

(Apis mellifera) Colonies, " *Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology* (1999):

73-81.

(8)Martin Glurfa, " The Concepts of 'Sameness' and 'Difference' in an

Insect, " *Nature*, 19 Apr. 2001.

(9)Fred C. Dyer, " Spatial Memory and Navigation by Honeybees on the Scale of

the Foraging Range, " *The Journal of Experimental Biology* 199 (1996):

147-154.

(10)Gerard Arnold *et al*., " Kin Recognition in Honeybees, " *Nature*, 8 Feb.

1996.

(11)Judith Reinhard *et al*., " Scent-Triggered Navigation in Honeybees, " *

Nature*, 29 Jan. 2004.

(12)Maryann Frazier, " Honey—Here's to Your Health, " *Beeaware, Notes and

News on Bees & Beekeeping*, Mid-Atlantic Apiculture Research and Extension

Consortium, Jan. 2003.

(13) " Number of Flowers for 1 Pound Honey, " Canadian Honey Council, 15 May

2003.

(14) " The Value of Pollinators <http://pollinators.nbii.gov/declines.html>, "

Pollinator Declines Node, National Biological Information Infrastructure,

U.S. Geological Service, last accessed 17 May 2004.

(15)Lane Greer, " Alternative Pollinators: Native Bees, " Appropriate

Technology Transfer for Rural Areas, U.S. Department of Agriculture, Aug.

1999.

(16)*Ibid*.

(17)*Ibid.

*(18)U.S. Department of Agriculture, " Honey: Number of Colonies, Yield,

Production, Stocks, Price and Value, United States, 1993-2002, "

*Agricultural Statistics 2003

*.

(19)Anne Raver, " Bees Buzz a Path to His Hive, " *The New York Times*, 31 May

2001.

(20)*Ibid*.

(21)Elbert R. Jaycox, " Miscellaneous Techniques in Beekeeping, " *Beekeeping

in the Midwest*, College of Agriculture, University of Illinois, reprinted

Apr. 1985.

(22)Everett Oertel, " History of Beekeeping in the United States, "

*Beekeeping in the United States,

* Agriculture Handbook 335, U.S. Department of Agriculture, revised Oct.

1980.

(23)Dr. Peter Schley, " Short

Instruction<http://www.besamungsgeraet.de/shortin.phtml>, "

last accessed 17 May 2004.

(24)Raver.

(25)Mary Hardison, " Toward an Appropriate Beehive, " *Seed and Harvest*, Aug.

1992.

(26)Clarence H. Collison, " Fall Management, " Mississippi State University,

17 Feb. 1999.

(27)Michelle Boorstein, " Beekeepers Struggle to Save Buzz, " *The Washington

Post*, 25 Apr. 2004.

(28)Nicolas Calderone, " Managing Brood Diseases, " *BeeCulture*, May 2001.

(29)Dee A. Lusby, " Suggested Biological Manipulative Field Management for

Control of Honeybee Mites. Part #1 Concept & Causes, "

<http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/part21.htm>BeeSource.com, 2000.

(30)Calderone.

(31)Dewey M. Caron, " Pollination Rental Colony Assessments, " *Beeaware,

Notes and News on Bees & Beekeeping*, Mid-Atlantic Apiculture Research and

Extension Consortium, Jan. 2003.

(32)Boorstein.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

I don't see what the adversion is to wool. Sheep have to be sheared every

spring regardless.

 

Yikes, as scratchy and hot as wool is, who would ever use those as diaper

covers??????????

 

-

Paul Falvo

Sunday, September 17, 2006 12:52 PM

Re: Vegan perfection and compromise

 

 

What can I use as alternatives to wool diaper covers?

 

We have some wool diaper covers. I feel better using them than plastic

or synthetic. But the wool of course is not vegan and neither is the

lanolin used to treat it.

 

I'll check the vrg website.

 

~Paul

 

earthmother wrote:

> yeah, we don't use those. :) i really think lanolin is gross stuff!

 

--

www.mackenziewild.ca

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

i agree. we do try to avoid those too. over the past year we've actually

eradicated almost all of our personal use products. my son isn't really a

baby anymore so we don't use burt's bees stuff much anymore (plus, it's way

expensive, so i don't imagine we'll be using it when this baby comes). we

use organic hemp diapers with recycled covers and recycled fleece wipes with

vinegar/water and that's all we put on his butt! my husband has eczema and

we went through pretty much every product in the book before settling on an

internal regimen of evening primrose and flax oil and an external regimen of

palm oil and borage with the occasional homeopathic when he flares up. i

make my own soap and shampoo and to wash our clothes and diapers we use

vinegar, baking soda, and essential oils. for deodorant we use the rock, i

don't shave anymore, and my husband grew out his beard (he does trim it

though). my one personal indulgence is the kiss my face patchouli lotion.

:) baby steps, ya know, but we're making as many personal changes as seem

feasible at the time, not just for the animals, but our own health. it's

amazing how having a child really makes you reevaluate what is essential and

how much harm and hypocrisy you will allow yourself to commit. :)

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

i have indeed heard that wool is the best. i wish i could use it in good

conscience, but i just can't. one option is to go without a cover.

obviously this is not feasible in public or for extended periods like naps

and at night. but during the day, and on trips when it's feasible, my son

(18 mos.) is either naked or in a hemp prefold (not naked on trips, haha).

i really think it's disgusting and dehumanizing to leave a baby in a wet

diaper and with it like this, he gets changed just as often as he deserves!

as for covers, well, we've accepted the necessary evil of recycled PUL

covers. :( it wouldn't be my first choice and if i knew someone who made

wool diapers from their very own well-cared-for sheep, then maybe i would

consider it, but i won't buy them commercially. i'm not sure what other

options there are than PUL and wool. sometimes we have to make

compromises. for some people the compromise is using wool because it's

easier on the planet, while for others it's PUL because it's easier on the

animals, and i wouldn't say either way is right or wrong. it really depends

on each family individually. i have a wool allergy, albeit a mild one, so i

can't say i'd use them anyway. personally, i think anything is better than

disposables and i probably wouldn't pass judgment even if someone was using

leather diaper covers as long as they weren't using disposables.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

I truly do not mean this to be disrespecful, but do those of you who work so

hard for the rights of animal feel as strongly about humans? Do you buy fairly

traded coffee, chocolate, etc.? Do you buy clothing that is sweatshop free?

 

 

Mary Borden <maresydotes63 wrote:

I wanted to know how long a bee's natural life span is and why farmers would

kill bees so I went to:

http://www.honeyflowfarm.com/newsletters/fromourreaders/faq.htm#howlongbeeslive

for an answer. Also checked out

http://experts.about.com/q/Miscellaneous-885/Life-exspectancy.htm.

 

The answer is: Over winter, the worker bees (female honeybees) can live from 4

to 6 months. During the summer they only live 4 to 6 weeks as they literally

" wear " themselves out harvesting honey. The queens can live 2-3 years or more,

although the bees will consider her old after 2 years & try to replace her. The

honeybees start raising drones (the male bees) in spring & since their only

purpose is for reproduction, any still alive in the fall get kicked out to

perish.

 

So, I guess I don't understand where the information comes from about honey

farmers killing bees?

 

-

earthmother

 

Saturday, September 16, 2006 12:40 PM

Re: Vegan perfection and compromise

 

 

 

whenever they make that stupid plant comment i always make the point that

plants don't have a central nervous system and therefore do not feel pain.

i really hate that argument; it's just plain ignorant.

 

most commercial honey manufacturers actually DO kill all the bees. they gas

them, and not to sleep, but to death. sometimes they will save the queen.

but bees create honey in cycles. it's impossible to force them to do

differently the way they do cows and chickens. so if they wanted to keep

the bees alive, and overwinter them, then they'd have to leave some honey

for them, and keep them alive, which is more work then they consider it to

be worth, when they can just buy a whole new batch of bees. so most of the

time, honey comes from dead bees, and also there's plenty of pesticide

trapped in the honey itself from the gas they use. so honey is not our

friend. i will very, very occasionally buy honey from a local farmer here

that i know overwinters his bees. and i will occasionally use burt's bees

products (the baby stuff) because i know they overwinter as well. but

overall we try to avoid it, just like we avoid products that use beetles as

coloring agents, etc.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

robin -- yes! :) actually, we can't afford to buy sweatshop-free most of

the time, so we buy only used clothing...used everything, actually, as much

as we can handle. the toys for our son are always wooden and made by small

family businesses, never plastic from china, etc. we don't drink coffee or

use chocolate (carob instead mostly), so those aren't issues, but i stopped

buying dried herbs (growing them myself, or farmers' markets) and i won't

buy sugar unless it's fairly traded, etc., and we try to eat only in season

and buy locally (which is really hard and sometimes impossible, but we

try)...there's only so much some of us can do, but the effort is what

counts, i think. correcting injustices to humans, or at least not

participating if we can help it, is the first line of defense in making this

a more peaceful world.

 

there are a lot of issues with wool. you can go here to see why:

 

http://www.downbound.com/Wool_s/271.htm

 

our main problems are with " collateral damage, " mulesing, and shipment of

animals.

 

chandelle'

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

:( no. like i said, we don't really have an excuse to use them anymore.

we went vegan when our son was 3 weeks old, and we already had a bunch of

burt's bees products that we used throughout his infancy. are you talking

about the royal jelly, etc?

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

I do care just as much for human rights as animal rights. I buy second hand

or sweatshop-free clothing, and only buy fair-trade chocolate. I think that

compassion should be an all-encompassing approach from how we interact with

others to how we spend our dollars. That said, none of us is perfect. We're

trying to do our best. Even if we can't achieve perfection (which I think is

more ego-driven than compassion-driven, probably), that doesn't mean we

should give up trying to make positive change. I've seen too many people

throw up their arms and say, " You know, I'm not going to solve the world's

problems by myself, so I'm not going to do anything. " That's so unfortunate.

Also, I've had many people say to me as a vegan advocate, " Well, what about

the homeless? What about AIDS? " , like my compassion for animals somehow

takes away work toward these other issues. First of all, someone who asks

that, in my opinion, is looking to others to do all the work of the world

and they need to look within. Second, animals cannot speak up for themselves

- not in a way we can understand, anyway - so I feel I need to raise my

voice for them. So, a long rant to your simple question, Robin, but

obviously I've got some strong feelings on this!

 

Peace,

 

Marla

 

 

 

> I truly do not mean this to be disrespecful, but do those of you who work so

> hard for the rights of animal feel as strongly about humans? Do you buy

> fairly traded coffee, chocolate, etc.? Do you buy clothing that is sweatshop

> free?

>

>

> Mary Borden <maresydotes63 wrote:

> I wanted to know how long a bee's natural life span is and why farmers would

> kill bees so I went to:

> http://www.honeyflowfarm.com/newsletters/fromourreaders/faq.htm#howlongbeesliv

> e for an answer. Also checked out

> http://experts.about.com/q/Miscellaneous-885/Life-exspectancy.htm.

>

> The answer is: Over winter, the worker bees (female honeybees) can live from 4

> to 6 months. During the summer they only live 4 to 6 weeks as they literally

> " wear " themselves out harvesting honey. The queens can live 2-3 years or more,

> although the bees will consider her old after 2 years & try to replace her.

> The honeybees start raising drones (the male bees) in spring & since their

> only purpose is for reproduction, any still alive in the fall get kicked out

> to perish.

>

> So, I guess I don't understand where the information comes from about honey

> farmers killing bees?

>

> -

> earthmother

>

> Saturday, September 16, 2006 12:40 PM

> Re: Vegan perfection and compromise

>

>

>

> whenever they make that stupid plant comment i always make the point that

> plants don't have a central nervous system and therefore do not feel pain.

> i really hate that argument; it's just plain ignorant.

>

> most commercial honey manufacturers actually DO kill all the bees. they gas

> them, and not to sleep, but to death. sometimes they will save the queen.

> but bees create honey in cycles. it's impossible to force them to do

> differently the way they do cows and chickens. so if they wanted to keep

> the bees alive, and overwinter them, then they'd have to leave some honey

> for them, and keep them alive, which is more work then they consider it to

> be worth, when they can just buy a whole new batch of bees. so most of the

> time, honey comes from dead bees, and also there's plenty of pesticide

> trapped in the honey itself from the gas they use. so honey is not our

> friend. i will very, very occasionally buy honey from a local farmer here

> that i know overwinters his bees. and i will occasionally use burt's bees

> products (the baby stuff) because i know they overwinter as well. but

> overall we try to avoid it, just like we avoid products that use beetles as

> coloring agents, etc.

>

>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

That is terrible. We don't use much honey anyway, but there's a good reason to

stop.

PETA seems to have lots of cool information on different animals. I have pet

rats, and PETA's fact sheet on them had several bits of information I didn't

even know after months of researching them. Very neat.

 

Kadee Sedtal

 

earthmother <earthmother213 wrote: hm...that's really interesting! i

guess i better figure out what the crap

i'm talking about! i'm not usually the type to take information at face

value but i won't say it's not possible.

 

ok, i went to downbound and looked up the peta factsheet on bees. here it

is (with resources):

 

Honey: From Factory-Farmed Bees

------------------------------

 

Although there were 3,500 native species of bees pollinating the flowers and

food crops of North America when European settlers landed on its shores in

the 17th century, the colonists were interested only in their Old World

honeybee's wax and honey. So they imported the insects, and by the

mid-1800s, both feral and domesticated colonies of honeybees were scattered

all over the United States.(1) As a result of disease, pesticides, and

climate changes, the honeybee population is now in decline, but since the

demand for honey remains high, these tiny beings are factory- farmed, much

like chickens, pigs, and cows.

 

*The Complex Lives of Bees*

A honeybee hive consists of tens of thousands of bees, each with his or her

own mission that is determined by the bee's sex and age and by the time of

year. Each hive usually has one queen, hundreds of drones, and thousands of

workers. Queens can live for as long as seven years, while other bees have

lifespans ranging from a few weeks to six months.(2)

 

 

Worker bees are responsible for feeding the brood, caring for the queen,

building comb, foraging for nectar and pollen, and cleaning, ventilating,

and guarding the hive. The drones serve the queen, who is responsible for

reproduction. She lays about 250,000 eggs each year—as many as a million

during her lifetime.(3)

 

 

When a new queen is about to be born, the old queen and half the hive leave

their old home and set up in a new place that scouting worker bees have

found.(4)

 

 

As the temperature drops in the winter, the bees cluster around the queen

and the young, using their body heat to keep the temperature inside the hive

steady at around 93°F.(5)

 

*A Language All Their Own*

Bees have a unique and complex form of communication based on sight, motion,

and scent that scientists and scholars still don't fully understand.(6) Bees

alert other members of their hive to food, new hive locations, and

conditions within their hive (such as nectar supply) through intricate

" dance " movements.(7)

 

 

Studies have shown that bees are not only capable of abstract thought, they

are also capable of distinguishing their own family members from other bees

in the hive, using visual cues to map their travels, and finding a

previously used food supply, even when their home has been moved.(8, 9, 10)

And in the same way that smells can invoke powerful memories in humans, bees

use their sense of smell to trigger memories of where the best food can be

found.(11)

 

*Why Bees Need Their Honey

*Plants produce nectar to attract pollinators (bees, butterflies, bats, and

other mammals), who are necessary for successful plant reproduction. Bees

collect and use nectar to make honey, which provides vital nourishment for

them, especially during the winter. Since nectar contains a lot of water,

bees have to work to dry it out, and they add enzymes from their own bodies

to convert it into food and prevent it from going bad.(12) To produce a

pound of honey, bees must get pollen from two million flowers and fly more

than 55,000 miles.(13)

 

*Honeybees Do Not Pollinate as Well as Native Bees*

Approximately one out of every three mouthfuls of food or drink that humans

consume is made possible by pollinators—insects, birds, and mammals

pollinate about 75 percent of all food crops.(14) Industrial beekeepers want

consumers to believe that honey is just a byproduct of the necessary

pollination provided by honeybees, but honeybees are not as good at

pollinating as many truly wild bees, such as bumblebees and carpenter and

digger bees. Native bees are active earlier in the spring, both male and

females pollinate, and they are unaffected by mites and Africanized bees,

which can harm honeybees.(15) But because most species of native bees

hibernate for as many as 11 months out of the year and do not live in large

colonies, they do not produce massive amounts of honey, and what little they

do produce is not worth the effort required to steal it from them.(16, 17)

So although native bees are more effective pollinators, farmers continue to

rely on factory-farmed honeybees for pollination so that the honey industry

can take in more than 170 million pounds of honey every year, at a value of

more than $200 million.(18)

 

*Manipulating Nature

*Profiting from honey requires the manipulation and exploitation of the

insects' desire to live and protect their hive. Like other factory-farmed

animals, honeybees are victims of unnatural living conditions, genetic

manipulation, and stressful transportation.

 

 

The familiar white box that serves as a beehive has been around since the

mid-1850s and was created so that beekeepers could move the hives from place

to place. *The New York Times *reported that bees have been " moved from

shapes that accommodated their own geometry to flat-topped tenements,

sentenced to life in file cabinets. " (19)

 

 

Since " swarming " (the division of the hive upon the birth of a new queen)

can cause a decline in honey production, beekeepers do what they can to

prevent it, including clipping the wings of a new queen, killing and

replacing an older queen after just one or two years, or confining a queen

who is trying to begin a swarm.(20, 21) There are also commercial " queen

rearers " who raise and mail about a million queen bees a year all over North

America. Many of the animals die in transit.(22) Queens are artificially

inseminated using drones, who are killed in the process.(23) Commercial

beekeepers also " trick " queens into laying more eggs by adding wax cells to

the hive that are larger than those that worker bees would normally

build.(24)

 

 

Some farmers kill all the bees in the fall because it's easier than

winterizing the hives. One beekeeper admits that one of his friends " uses

canisters of cyanide gas to exterminate 6,000 colonies of bees at the

conclusion of the production season. It is the most economical way to run

his operation. " (25) Each hive that is left to hibernate through the winter

needs at least 50 pounds of honey to survive, and according to one

entomologist, many bees succumb to improper care, starvation, weakness, and

other problems during the winter.(26)

 

 

Honeybee populations have declined by as much as 50 percent since the 1980s,

partly because of parasitic mites.(27) *BeeCulture* magazine reports that

beekeepers are notorious for contributing to the spread of disease:

" Beekeepers move infected combs from diseased colonies to healthy colonies,

fail to recognize or treat disease, purchase old infected equipment, keep

colonies too close together, [and] leave dead colonies in apiaries. " (28)

Artificial diets, provided because farmers take the honey that bees would

normally eat, leave bees susceptible to sickness and attack from other

insects.(29) When diseases are detected, beekeepers are advised to " destroy

the colony and burn the equipment, " which can mean burning or gassing the

bees to death.(30)

 

 

Since healthy honeybees are becoming harder and harder to find, farmers have

resorted to trucking hives across the country. When asked to examine 2,000

beehives rented by a New Jersey cranberry farmer, retired apiary inspectors

found " about 500 colonies with equipment in such bad shape that [it] would

not even qualify as junk … mice nests, old feeders full of comb, rotten hive

with bees coming out from all over. " The hives were also made of wood that

was labeled as having been treated with arsenic and was, therefore,

unsuitable for beehives.(31)

 

 

Bears are also victims of the honey industry. The government of Maryland

compensates beekeepers for electric fences around hives, and Virginia

beekeepers have asked their legislature to allow them to kill bears.(32)

 

*What You Can Do

*Avoid honey, beeswax, propolis, royal jelly, and other products that come

from bees. Vegan lip balms and candles are readily available. Visit

CaringConsumer.com for a list of companies that don't use animal products.

Rice syrup, molasses, sorghum, barley malt, maple syrup, and dried fruit or

fruit concentrates can be used to replace honey in recipes. Call

1-888-VEG-FOOD or visit GoVeg.com to order a free vegetarian starter kit

that contains information about compassionate eating choices.

 

*Resources*

 

(1)Sue Hubbell, " Trouble With Honeybees, " *Natural History*, 106 (1997):

32-42.

(2) " The Colony and Its

Organization, "

*Fundamentals of Beekeeping*, Mid-Atlantic Apiculture Research and Extention

Consortium, last accessed 17 May 2004.

(3)*Ibid*.

(4)Norbert M. Kauffeld, " Seasonal Cycles of Activities in Honey Bee

Colonies, " *Beekeeping in the United States*, Agriculture Handbook 335, U.S.

Department of Agriculture, revised Oct. 1980.

(5)*Ibid*.

(6)Fred C. Dyer, " When It Pays to Waggle, " *Nature,* 31 Oct. 2002.

(7)Carl Anderson and Francis L.W. Ratnieks, " Worker Allocation in Insect

Societies: Coordination of Nectar Foragers and Nectar Receivers in Honey Bee

(Apis mellifera) Colonies, " *Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology* (1999):

73-81.

(8)Martin Glurfa, " The Concepts of 'Sameness' and 'Difference' in an

Insect, " *Nature*, 19 Apr. 2001.

(9)Fred C. Dyer, " Spatial Memory and Navigation by Honeybees on the Scale of

the Foraging Range, " *The Journal of Experimental Biology* 199 (1996):

147-154.

(10)Gerard Arnold *et al*., " Kin Recognition in Honeybees, " *Nature*, 8 Feb.

1996.

(11)Judith Reinhard *et al*., " Scent-Triggered Navigation in Honeybees, " *

Nature*, 29 Jan. 2004.

(12)Maryann Frazier, " Honey—Here's to Your Health, " *Beeaware, Notes and

News on Bees & Beekeeping*, Mid-Atlantic Apiculture Research and Extension

Consortium, Jan. 2003.

(13) " Number of Flowers for 1 Pound Honey, " Canadian Honey Council, 15 May

2003.

(14) " The Value of Pollinators , "

Pollinator Declines Node, National Biological Information Infrastructure,

U.S. Geological Service, last accessed 17 May 2004.

(15)Lane Greer, " Alternative Pollinators: Native Bees, " Appropriate

Technology Transfer for Rural Areas, U.S. Department of Agriculture, Aug.

1999.

(16)*Ibid*.

(17)*Ibid.

*(18)U.S. Department of Agriculture, " Honey: Number of Colonies, Yield,

Production, Stocks, Price and Value, United States, 1993-2002, "

*Agricultural Statistics 2003

*.

(19)Anne Raver, " Bees Buzz a Path to His Hive, " *The New York Times*, 31 May

2001.

(20)*Ibid*.

(21)Elbert R. Jaycox, " Miscellaneous Techniques in Beekeeping, " *Beekeeping

in the Midwest*, College of Agriculture, University of Illinois, reprinted

Apr. 1985.

(22)Everett Oertel, " History of Beekeeping in the United States, "

*Beekeeping in the United States,

* Agriculture Handbook 335, U.S. Department of Agriculture, revised Oct.

1980.

(23)Dr. Peter Schley, " Short

Instruction, "

last accessed 17 May 2004.

(24)Raver.

(25)Mary Hardison, " Toward an Appropriate Beehive, " *Seed and Harvest*, Aug.

1992.

(26)Clarence H. Collison, " Fall Management, " Mississippi State University,

17 Feb. 1999.

(27)Michelle Boorstein, " Beekeepers Struggle to Save Buzz, " *The Washington

Post*, 25 Apr. 2004.

(28)Nicolas Calderone, " Managing Brood Diseases, " *BeeCulture*, May 2001.

(29)Dee A. Lusby, " Suggested Biological Manipulative Field Management for

Control of Honeybee Mites. Part #1 Concept & Causes, "

BeeSource.com, 2000.

(30)Calderone.

(31)Dewey M. Caron, " Pollination Rental Colony Assessments, " *Beeaware,

Notes and News on Bees & Beekeeping*, Mid-Atlantic Apiculture Research and

Extension Consortium, Jan. 2003.

(32)Boorstein.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Please tell me about this stuff! Especially about the eczema treatment. My son

and I have it and it's driving me crazy. Plus this about making your own shampoo

and laundry detergent. That'd certainly be something to try. I have no idea

what's in my shampoo, and even some of the unscented, dye-free detergents

irritate our skin. Please share!

 

Kadee Sedtal

 

earthmother <earthmother213 wrote: i

agree. we do try to avoid those too. over the past year we've actually

eradicated almost all of our personal use products. my son isn't really a

baby anymore so we don't use burt's bees stuff much anymore (plus, it's way

expensive, so i don't imagine we'll be using it when this baby comes). we

use organic hemp diapers with recycled covers and recycled fleece wipes with

vinegar/water and that's all we put on his butt! my husband has eczema and

we went through pretty much every product in the book before settling on an

internal regimen of evening primrose and flax oil and an external regimen of

palm oil and borage with the occasional homeopathic when he flares up. i

make my own soap and shampoo and to wash our clothes and diapers we use

vinegar, baking soda, and essential oils. for deodorant we use the rock, i

don't shave anymore, and my husband grew out his beard (he does trim it

though). my one personal indulgence is the kiss my face patchouli lotion.

:) baby steps, ya know, but we're making as many personal changes as seem

feasible at the time, not just for the animals, but our own health. it's

amazing how having a child really makes you reevaluate what is essential and

how much harm and hypocrisy you will allow yourself to commit. :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

I choose American-made products as much as I possibly can. Here in America

people have choices. Other countries, maybe not. But here they do, and we do

have a minimum wage and welfare and all that, so I know whoever made whatever

I'm using isn't starving. Probably quite the opposite!

 

Kadee Sedtal

 

robin koloms <rkoloms wrote: I truly

do not mean this to be disrespecful, but do those of you who work so hard for

the rights of animal feel as strongly about humans? Do you buy fairly traded

coffee, chocolate, etc.? Do you buy clothing that is sweatshop free?

 

 

Mary Borden <maresydotes63 wrote:

I wanted to know how long a bee's natural life span is and why farmers would

kill bees so I went to:

http://www.honeyflowfarm.com/newsletters/fromourreaders/faq.htm#howlongbeeslive

for an answer. Also checked out

http://experts.about.com/q/Miscellaneous-885/Life-exspectancy.htm.

 

The answer is: Over winter, the worker bees (female honeybees) can live from 4

to 6 months. During the summer they only live 4 to 6 weeks as they literally

" wear " themselves out harvesting honey. The queens can live 2-3 years or more,

although the bees will consider her old after 2 years & try to replace her. The

honeybees start raising drones (the male bees) in spring & since their only

purpose is for reproduction, any still alive in the fall get kicked out to

perish.

 

So, I guess I don't understand where the information comes from about honey

farmers killing bees?

 

-

earthmother

Saturday, September 16, 2006 12:40 PM

Re: Vegan perfection and compromise

 

whenever they make that stupid plant comment i always make the point that

plants don't have a central nervous system and therefore do not feel pain.

i really hate that argument; it's just plain ignorant.

 

most commercial honey manufacturers actually DO kill all the bees. they gas

them, and not to sleep, but to death. sometimes they will save the queen.

but bees create honey in cycles. it's impossible to force them to do

differently the way they do cows and chickens. so if they wanted to keep

the bees alive, and overwinter them, then they'd have to leave some honey

for them, and keep them alive, which is more work then they consider it to

be worth, when they can just buy a whole new batch of bees. so most of the

time, honey comes from dead bees, and also there's plenty of pesticide

trapped in the honey itself from the gas they use. so honey is not our

friend. i will very, very occasionally buy honey from a local farmer here

that i know overwinters his bees. and i will occasionally use burt's bees

products (the baby stuff) because i know they overwinter as well. but

overall we try to avoid it, just like we avoid products that use beetles as

coloring agents, etc.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Absolutely! This is definitely a continuing journey for most of us. I

certainly wasn't wealthy enough to come home and throw everything out

and buy all new products. But over time I have replace my belongings

and I am a very selective shopper. I buy fairly traded foods. I worry

about sweatshop free items. It kills me when I have no choice but to

shop at WalMart. However, I do try to find what I need used.

Extending its life gives more meaning and respect to the labor that

went into it. Then there is the issue of how to help the economy of

the country of origin so that sweatshops are not the only choice for

those living there. I also have great concerns for what happens in

our own backyards. It really saddens me to see what our society

allows in regard to poverty and mentally handicapped individuals.

 

Carrol

 

, robin koloms <rkoloms wrote:

>

> I truly do not mean this to be disrespecful, but do those of you

who work so hard for the rights of animal feel as strongly about

humans? Do you buy fairly traded coffee, chocolate, etc.? Do you

buy clothing that is sweatshop free?

>

>

> Mary Borden <maresydotes63 wrote:

> I wanted to know how long a bee's natural life span is and why

farmers would kill bees so I went to:

http://www.honeyflowfarm.com/newsletters/fromourreaders/faq.htm#howlon

gbeeslive for an answer. Also checked out

http://experts.about.com/q/Miscellaneous-885/Life-exspectancy.htm.

>

> The answer is: Over winter, the worker bees (female honeybees) can

live from 4 to 6 months. During the summer they only live 4 to 6

weeks as they literally " wear " themselves out harvesting honey. The

queens can live 2-3 years or more, although the bees will consider

her old after 2 years & try to replace her. The honeybees start

raising drones (the male bees) in spring & since their only purpose

is for reproduction, any still alive in the fall get kicked out to

perish.

>

> So, I guess I don't understand where the information comes from

about honey farmers killing bees?

>

> -

> earthmother

>

> Saturday, September 16, 2006 12:40 PM

> Re: Vegan perfection and compromise

>

>

>

> whenever they make that stupid plant comment i always make the

point that

> plants don't have a central nervous system and therefore do not

feel pain.

> i really hate that argument; it's just plain ignorant.

>

> most commercial honey manufacturers actually DO kill all the bees.

they gas

> them, and not to sleep, but to death. sometimes they will save the

queen.

> but bees create honey in cycles. it's impossible to force them to do

> differently the way they do cows and chickens. so if they wanted to

keep

> the bees alive, and overwinter them, then they'd have to leave some

honey

> for them, and keep them alive, which is more work then they

consider it to

> be worth, when they can just buy a whole new batch of bees. so most

of the

> time, honey comes from dead bees, and also there's plenty of

pesticide

> trapped in the honey itself from the gas they use. so honey is not

our

> friend. i will very, very occasionally buy honey from a local

farmer here

> that i know overwinters his bees. and i will occasionally use

burt's bees

> products (the baby stuff) because i know they overwinter as well.

but

> overall we try to avoid it, just like we avoid products that use

beetles as

> coloring agents, etc.

>

>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Thank you for your response. I often run into the

rat-is-a-pig-is-a-dog-is-a-boy crowd carrying a paper starbucks cup. The

hypocricy makes me crazy.

 

We also buy used clothing and fairly traded coffee, for the impact on humans

and the planet.

 

earthmother <earthmother213 wrote:

robin -- yes! :) actually, we can't afford to buy sweatshop-free most of

the time, so we buy only used clothing...used everything, actually, as much

as we can handle. the toys for our son are always wooden and made by small

family businesses, never plastic from china, etc. we don't drink coffee or

use chocolate (carob instead mostly), so those aren't issues, but i stopped

buying dried herbs (growing them myself, or farmers' markets) and i won't

buy sugar unless it's fairly traded, etc., and we try to eat only in season

and buy locally (which is really hard and sometimes impossible, but we

try)...there's only so much some of us can do, but the effort is what

counts, i think. correcting injustices to humans, or at least not

participating if we can help it, is the first line of defense in making this

a more peaceful world.

 

there are a lot of issues with wool. you can go here to see why:

 

http://www.downbound.com/Wool_s/271.htm

 

our main problems are with " collateral damage, " mulesing, and shipment of

animals.

 

chandelle'

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

well, with the eczema thing, i make sure to make my husband a smoothie

everyday with a few teaspoons of a cold-pressed evening primrose/flax oil

mix. that keeps his skin nice and hydrated from within. when he has

flare-ups (mainly in times of stress or when he's gone swimming or use a

harsh soap), i either buy borage leaves and crush them, or just buy a borage

extract, and mix it with palm oil, and that soothes his skin and stops the

itch-scratch cycle. i'm trying to grow borage myself but i guess it's too

hot here. borgae is really wonderful for eczema. when it gets really bad,

we use a homeopathic. i don't know if you're into that, but here's a link

to different kinds of homeopathics to use for eczema:

 

http://www.publix.com/wellness/notes/Display.do?id=Homeo & childId=Eczema_hm

 

sulphur is most useful for him. we also are very careful about what kinds

of soap we use. i usually try to make my own soap but sometimes i just

don't have the time, so we buy some oil-based stuff from the farmers'

market. just olive, coconut or palm oil with non-drying essential oils.

for hair i use a base of castile soap with olive oil (we both tend to have

dry hair). i add whatever kinds of herbs or essential oils i like, usually

eucalyptus, lavendar, citrus, rose, etc., whatever sounds nice to me at the

time! and that's it, very simple. it takes some getting used to since most

women's hair tends to be " addicted " to conditioner. but i haven't used

conditioner for about a year now and i never have tangles anymore and my

hair is just as soft.

 

for our laundry detergent -- for our clothes i use vinegar and baking soda,

that's it. sometimes i'll throw in some essential oil like citrus or

lavendar or rose for a nice scent. i don't measure or anything, just dump

some in...i'd guess about 1/2 a cup of each. for diapers, i do one rinse

with vinegar, then a second rinse with baking soda and tea tree oil (to

retard bacterial growth). we started doing it this way when my son started

getting really bad rashes from detergent build-up. this way his diapers are

always nice and clean and free of build-up and stinky smells. he had a

yeast infection a few months ago and it was just a mess. so since then i've

used my homemade wipes with 1 c. water + 1 tbsp. vinegar and that keeps his

diaper area from being susceptible to yeast from his poop. (we had problems

with this because we don't have a car, so i'd take him on the bus or train

and wouldn't be able to change him fast enough. so sometimes he'd have to

sit in yucky diapers and that's how he started getting infections.)

 

hope that helps!

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...