off topic...this can't be true

February 28, 2002

But there is the argument that by saving a meat-eater's life we are condemning many animals to death, that is why I can understand that from a utilitarian viewpoint it is a difficult issue for vegans. Thyis is about how to cause the greatest overall happiness and the least overall suffering.

It's like my viewpoint on abortion, some vegans have pointed out that by being pro-life and wanting to save babies from abortion, the more babies live the more animals die to feed them, but I'm still pro-life because I am not a utilitarian and I value human life too, and I believe humans have a potential for good and should all get a chance at life.

I will still give blood (when I am allowed to, I had my daughter too recently to be allowed to give blood yet) while being aware of the possible inconsistency with wanting to create a more vegan world.

I really want my mother to quit smoking so that she will live longer and be less likely to die of cancer, but that would mean she would live longer and eat more animals, so I would say that I want even more for her to go veggie or vegan, but even if she doesn't change her diet I still want her to stop smoking, and that is probably inconsistent with causing less overall suffering.

We most of us have particular attachments to particular individuals (human and animal), and this makes us less able to be consistent sometimes with hoping for what is most vegan, and makes us less likely to make utilitarian decisions.

I think utilitarianism is difficult because we can't always predict accurately what will cause the least harm and the most happiness, and you never know the person you save might convert anyway. You never know who you are saving.

Lesley

shelloid [shelloid]27 February 2002 16:00 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

so you would rather condemn someone to death. IMO I wouldn't be able not to give blood just because a meateater may benefit.............to me it's about saving any life.

> I still have to repay what my son needed for his heart operation , but after that I don't know I don't feel I should help to keep

> animal eaters alive .

> Convince me someone

To send an email to -

February 28, 2002

Lesley

I agree that our love for our family and friends is inconsistent with feelings on veganism. My daughter was an omnivore longer than the rest of us, but I still loved her just the same, and I would now if she were still an omnivore. All of my friends are omnivores, and while it would be nice if they were vegan, they are still my friends and I would not wish harm on them.

The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help save the lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that is causing more death.

We don't have to be perfect to do some good.

Jo

--"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:19 AM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

But there is the argument that by saving a meat-eater's life we are condemning many animals to death, that is why I can understand that from a utilitarian viewpoint it is a difficult issue for vegans. Thyis is about how to cause the greatest overall happiness and the least overall suffering.

It's like my viewpoint on abortion, some vegans have pointed out that by being pro-life and wanting to save babies from abortion, the more babies live the more animals die to feed them, but I'm still pro-life because I am not a utilitarian and I value human life too, and I believe humans have a potential for good and should all get a chance at life.

I will still give blood (when I am allowed to, I had my daughter too recently to be allowed to give blood yet) while being aware of the possible inconsistency with wanting to create a more vegan world.

I really want my mother to quit smoking so that she will live longer and be less likely to die of cancer, but that would mean she would live longer and eat more animals, so I would say that I want even more for her to go veggie or vegan, but even if she doesn't change her diet I still want her to stop smoking, and that is probably inconsistent with causing less overall suffering.

We most of us have particular attachments to particular individuals (human and animal), and this makes us less able to be consistent sometimes with hoping for what is most vegan, and makes us less likely to make utilitarian decisions.

I think utilitarianism is difficult because we can't always predict accurately what will cause the least harm and the most happiness, and you never know the person you save might convert anyway. You never know who you are saving.

Lesley

shelloid [shelloid]27 February 2002 16:00 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

so you would rather condemn someone to death. IMO I wouldn't be able not to give blood just because a meateater may benefit.............to me it's about saving any life.

> I still have to repay what my son needed for his heart operation , but after that I don't know I don't feel I should help to keep

> animal eaters alive .

> Convince me someone

To send an email to -

February 28, 2002

You have done great that both your kids went veggie or vegan, you have a lot to be proud of there. There must have been something you did right in raising them with compassionate values, even though they were not actually raised veggie or vegan.

I couldn't feel as close to omnivores as I could to vegetarians and vegans personally, so of course ever since becoming veggie then vegan I have always sought out like-minded friends as a high priority in life - that is hard when you have young kids and don't drive and have to seek them out very locally.

As a teenager I felt I could not stay friends with my best friend, not really cos of her eating meat, as I could delude myself that she was in denial until she got engaged to a man who worked in Winsford Bacon factory (ie slaughterhouse)! That was too much for me to deal with. I felt it meant that she knew the full horror of slaughter and still did not care, and I could not have anything to do with him of course! I sometimes wonder if I was wrong to assume that she knew anything about his job, since my hubby is a programmer and yet I don't understand anything about computers, it's only thanks to him I can be online!

Lesley

Jo [Heartwork]28 February 2002 12:04 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

Lesley

I agree that our love for our family and friends is inconsistent with feelings on veganism. My daughter was an omnivore longer than the rest of us, but I still loved her just the same, and I would now if she were still an omnivore. All of my friends are omnivores, and while it would be nice if they were vegan, they are still my friends and I would not wish harm on them.

The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help save the lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that is causing more death.

We don't have to be perfect to do some good.

Jo

--"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:19 AM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

But there is the argument that by saving a meat-eater's life we are condemning many animals to death, that is why I can understand that from a utilitarian viewpoint it is a difficult issue for vegans. Thyis is about how to cause the greatest overall happiness and the least overall suffering.

It's like my viewpoint on abortion, some vegans have pointed out that by being pro-life and wanting to save babies from abortion, the more babies live the more animals die to feed them, but I'm still pro-life because I am not a utilitarian and I value human life too, and I believe humans have a potential for good and should all get a chance at life.

I will still give blood (when I am allowed to, I had my daughter too recently to be allowed to give blood yet) while being aware of the possible inconsistency with wanting to create a more vegan world.

I really want my mother to quit smoking so that she will live longer and be less likely to die of cancer, but that would mean she would live longer and eat more animals, so I would say that I want even more for her to go veggie or vegan, but even if she doesn't change her diet I still want her to stop smoking, and that is probably inconsistent with causing less overall suffering.

We most of us have particular attachments to particular individuals (human and animal), and this makes us less able to be consistent sometimes with hoping for what is most vegan, and makes us less likely to make utilitarian decisions.

I think utilitarianism is difficult because we can't always predict accurately what will cause the least harm and the most happiness, and you never know the person you save might convert anyway. You never know who you are saving.

Lesley

shelloid [shelloid]27 February 2002 16:00 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

so you would rather condemn someone to death. IMO I wouldn't be able not to give blood just because a meateater may benefit.............to me it's about saving any life.

> I still have to repay what my son needed for his heart operation , but after that I don't know I don't feel I should help to keep

> animal eaters alive .

> Convince me someone

To send an email to -

February 28, 2002

Thanks Lesley. I think we all grew together. The reason it took a long time to turn veggie was because we were too busy doing other things to even think about it. I can't understand how now - but that's the way it was. When we turned veggie my daughter was very pleased to cook delicious veggie/vegan meals for us when we visited her. She is a fantastic cook. I never tried to urge her to become veggie - I hate forcing my views on people, but then one day she said she was veggie, and three months after that her partner turned veggie as well.

I would have no friends if I waited for only vegans. I know one vegan at work .... but she likes Britney Spears and doesn't know what heavy metal is, and is a Christian and doesn't have anything in common with my Paganism. She doesn't like gardening or Sci Fi so when we've finished talking about the weather - there's nothing left to say. At least with my omnivore friends I have fun things in common with them.

Jo

--"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:50 PM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

You have done great that both your kids went veggie or vegan, you have a lot to be proud of there. There must have been something you did right in raising them with compassionate values, even though they were not actually raised veggie or vegan.

I couldn't feel as close to omnivores as I could to vegetarians and vegans personally, so of course ever since becoming veggie then vegan I have always sought out like-minded friends as a high priority in life - that is hard when you have young kids and don't drive and have to seek them out very locally.

As a teenager I felt I could not stay friends with my best friend, not really cos of her eating meat, as I could delude myself that she was in denial until she got engaged to a man who worked in Winsford Bacon factory (ie slaughterhouse)! That was too much for me to deal with. I felt it meant that she knew the full horror of slaughter and still did not care, and I could not have anything to do with him of course! I sometimes wonder if I was wrong to assume that she knew anything about his job, since my hubby is a programmer and yet I don't understand anything about computers, it's only thanks to him I can be online!

Lesley

Jo [Heartwork]28 February 2002 12:04 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

Lesley

I agree that our love for our family and friends is inconsistent with feelings on veganism. My daughter was an omnivore longer than the rest of us, but I still loved her just the same, and I would now if she were still an omnivore. All of my friends are omnivores, and while it would be nice if they were vegan, they are still my friends and I would not wish harm on them.

The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help save the lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that is causing more death.

We don't have to be perfect to do some good.

Jo

--"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:19 AM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

But there is the argument that by saving a meat-eater's life we are condemning many animals to death, that is why I can understand that from a utilitarian viewpoint it is a difficult issue for vegans. Thyis is about how to cause the greatest overall happiness and the least overall suffering.

It's like my viewpoint on abortion, some vegans have pointed out that by being pro-life and wanting to save babies from abortion, the more babies live the more animals die to feed them, but I'm still pro-life because I am not a utilitarian and I value human life too, and I believe humans have a potential for good and should all get a chance at life.

I will still give blood (when I am allowed to, I had my daughter too recently to be allowed to give blood yet) while being aware of the possible inconsistency with wanting to create a more vegan world.

I really want my mother to quit smoking so that she will live longer and be less likely to die of cancer, but that would mean she would live longer and eat more animals, so I would say that I want even more for her to go veggie or vegan, but even if she doesn't change her diet I still want her to stop smoking, and that is probably inconsistent with causing less overall suffering.

We most of us have particular attachments to particular individuals (human and animal), and this makes us less able to be consistent sometimes with hoping for what is most vegan, and makes us less likely to make utilitarian decisions.

I think utilitarianism is difficult because we can't always predict accurately what will cause the least harm and the most happiness, and you never know the person you save might convert anyway. You never know who you are saving.

Lesley

shelloid [shelloid]27 February 2002 16:00 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

so you would rather condemn someone to death. IMO I wouldn't be able not to give blood just because a meateater may benefit.............to me it's about saving any life.

> I still have to repay what my son needed for his heart operation , but after that I don't know I don't feel I should help to keep

> animal eaters alive .

> Convince me someone

To send an email to -

February 28, 2002

I'd still find it hard if they refused to even try a vegan cake I had made, if I knew it tasted fine, but they refused just because it was vegan.

I know what you mean about being too busy to think about issues and make a lifestyle change at certain times in your life! The people I most admire who go veggie/vegan are those who make the transition with their families when they have two or three young children. That is amazing, and these are the people we must support and encourage the most, hence my belief in the importance of vegan groups being family-friendly and if they are fairly big they should be able to provide creches when they have meetings with speakers so that open-minded omnis with young families can easily attend.

I was quite upset when my friends as well as family in my teenage years did not grow with me, I suppose I expected them to suddenly see the light as I had, and that they would agree with me once I explained it.

Lesley

Jo [Heartwork]28 February 2002 15:06 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

Thanks Lesley. I think we all grew together. The reason it took a long time to turn veggie was because we were too busy doing other things to even think about it. I can't understand how now - but that's the way it was. When we turned veggie my daughter was very pleased to cook delicious veggie/vegan meals for us when we visited her. She is a fantastic cook. I never tried to urge her to become veggie - I hate forcing my views on people, but then one day she said she was veggie, and three months after that her partner turned veggie as well.

I would have no friends if I waited for only vegans. I know one vegan at work .... but she likes Britney Spears and doesn't know what heavy metal is, and is a Christian and doesn't have anything in common with my Paganism. She doesn't like gardening or Sci Fi so when we've finished talking about the weather - there's nothing left to say. At least with my omnivore friends I have fun things in common with them.

Jo

--"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:50 PM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

You have done great that both your kids went veggie or vegan, you have a lot to be proud of there. There must have been something you did right in raising them with compassionate values, even though they were not actually raised veggie or vegan.

I couldn't feel as close to omnivores as I could to vegetarians and vegans personally, so of course ever since becoming veggie then vegan I have always sought out like-minded friends as a high priority in life - that is hard when you have young kids and don't drive and have to seek them out very locally.

As a teenager I felt I could not stay friends with my best friend, not really cos of her eating meat, as I could delude myself that she was in denial until she got engaged to a man who worked in Winsford Bacon factory (ie slaughterhouse)! That was too much for me to deal with. I felt it meant that she knew the full horror of slaughter and still did not care, and I could not have anything to do with him of course! I sometimes wonder if I was wrong to assume that she knew anything about his job, since my hubby is a programmer and yet I don't understand anything about computers, it's only thanks to him I can be online!

Lesley

Jo [Heartwork]28 February 2002 12:04 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

Lesley

I agree that our love for our family and friends is inconsistent with feelings on veganism. My daughter was an omnivore longer than the rest of us, but I still loved her just the same, and I would now if she were still an omnivore. All of my friends are omnivores, and while it would be nice if they were vegan, they are still my friends and I would not wish harm on them.

The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help save the lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that is causing more death.

We don't have to be perfect to do some good.

Jo

--"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:19 AM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

But there is the argument that by saving a meat-eater's life we are condemning many animals to death, that is why I can understand that from a utilitarian viewpoint it is a difficult issue for vegans. Thyis is about how to cause the greatest overall happiness and the least overall suffering.

It's like my viewpoint on abortion, some vegans have pointed out that by being pro-life and wanting to save babies from abortion, the more babies live the more animals die to feed them, but I'm still pro-life because I am not a utilitarian and I value human life too, and I believe humans have a potential for good and should all get a chance at life.

I will still give blood (when I am allowed to, I had my daughter too recently to be allowed to give blood yet) while being aware of the possible inconsistency with wanting to create a more vegan world.

I really want my mother to quit smoking so that she will live longer and be less likely to die of cancer, but that would mean she would live longer and eat more animals, so I would say that I want even more for her to go veggie or vegan, but even if she doesn't change her diet I still want her to stop smoking, and that is probably inconsistent with causing less overall suffering.

We most of us have particular attachments to particular individuals (human and animal), and this makes us less able to be consistent sometimes with hoping for what is most vegan, and makes us less likely to make utilitarian decisions.

I think utilitarianism is difficult because we can't always predict accurately what will cause the least harm and the most happiness, and you never know the person you save might convert anyway. You never know who you are saving.

Lesley

shelloid [shelloid]27 February 2002 16:00 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

so you would rather condemn someone to death. IMO I wouldn't be able not to give blood just because a meateater may benefit.............to me it's about saving any life.

> I still have to repay what my son needed for his heart operation , but after that I don't know I don't feel I should help to keep

> animal eaters alive .

> Convince me someone

To send an email to -

February 28, 2002

True , but of course in the UK most people are animal eaters

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:19 AM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

we can't always predict accurately what will cause the least harm and the most happiness, and you never know the person you save might convert anyway. You never know who you are saving.

Lesley

shelloid [shelloid]27 February 2002 16:00 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

so you would rather condemn someone to death. IMO I wouldn't be able not to give blood just because a meateater may benefit.............to me it's about saving any life.

> I still have to repay what my son needed for his heart operation , but after that I don't know I don't feel I should help to keep

> animal eaters alive .

> Convince me someone

To send an email to -

February 28, 2002

Cats don't know any better

Angie

-

Jo

Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:03 PM

Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

Lesley

.. All of my friends are omnivores, and while it would be nice if they were vegan, they are still my friends and I would not wish harm on them.

The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help save the lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that is causing more death.

Jo

--"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:19 AM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

But there is the argument that by saving a meat-eater's life we are condemning many animals to death, that is why I can understand that from a utilitarian viewpoint it is a difficult issue for vegans. Thyis is about how to cause the greatest overall happiness and the least overall suffering.

It's like my viewpoint on abortion, some vegans have pointed out that by being pro-life and wanting to save babies from abortion, the more babies live the more animals die to feed them, but I'm still pro-life because I am not a utilitarian and I value human life too, and I believe humans have a potential for good and should all get a chance at life.

I will still give blood (when I am allowed to, I had my daughter too recently to be allowed to give blood yet) while being aware of the possible inconsistency with wanting to create a more vegan world.

I really want my mother to quit smoking so that she will live longer and be less likely to die of cancer, but that would mean she would live longer and eat more animals, so I would say that I want even more for her to go veggie or vegan, but even if she doesn't change her diet I still want her to stop smoking, and that is probably inconsistent with causing less overall suffering.

We most of us have particular attachments to particular individuals (human and animal), and this makes us less able to be consistent sometimes with hoping for what is most vegan, and makes us less likely to make utilitarian decisions.

I think utilitarianism is difficult because we can't always predict accurately what will cause the least harm and the most happiness, and you never know the person you save might convert anyway. You never know who you are saving.

Lesley

shelloid [shelloid]27 February 2002 16:00 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

so you would rather condemn someone to death. IMO I wouldn't be able not to give blood just because a meateater may benefit.............to me it's about saving any life.

> I still have to repay what my son needed for his heart operation , but after that I don't know I don't feel I should help to keep

> animal eaters alive .

> Convince me someone

To send an email to -

February 28, 2002

You know he doesn't directly harm anyone/thing in his job . You know it is a machine he is involved with .

Your friend knew her chap worked with animals and that they ended up dead.!! Details don't have to be understood necessarily

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:50 PM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

IAs a teenager I felt I could not stay friends with my best friend, not really cos of her eating meat, as I could delude myself that she was in denial until she got engaged to a man who worked in Winsford Bacon factory (ie slaughterhouse)! That was too much for me to deal with. I felt it meant that she knew the full horror of slaughter and still did not care, and I could not have anything to do with him of course! I sometimes wonder if I was wrong to assume that she knew anything about his job, since my hubby is a programmer and yet I don't understand anything about computers, it's only thanks to him I can be online!

Lesley

Jo [Heartwork]28 February 2002 12:04 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

Lesley

I agree that our love for our family and friends is inconsistent with feelings on veganism. My daughter was an omnivore longer than the rest of us, but I still loved her just the same, and I would now if she were still an omnivore. All of my friends are omnivores, and while it would be nice if they were vegan, they are still my friends and I would not wish harm on them.

The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help save the lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that is causing more death.

We don't have to be perfect to do some good.

Jo

--"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:19 AM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

But there is the argument that by saving a meat-eater's life we are condemning many animals to death, that is why I can understand that from a utilitarian viewpoint it is a difficult issue for vegans. Thyis is about how to cause the greatest overall happiness and the least overall suffering.

It's like my viewpoint on abortion, some vegans have pointed out that by being pro-life and wanting to save babies from abortion, the more babies live the more animals die to feed them, but I'm still pro-life because I am not a utilitarian and I value human life too, and I believe humans have a potential for good and should all get a chance at life.

I will still give blood (when I am allowed to, I had my daughter too recently to be allowed to give blood yet) while being aware of the possible inconsistency with wanting to create a more vegan world.

I really want my mother to quit smoking so that she will live longer and be less likely to die of cancer, but that would mean she would live longer and eat more animals, so I would say that I want even more for her to go veggie or vegan, but even if she doesn't change her diet I still want her to stop smoking, and that is probably inconsistent with causing less overall suffering.

We most of us have particular attachments to particular individuals (human and animal), and this makes us less able to be consistent sometimes with hoping for what is most vegan, and makes us less likely to make utilitarian decisions.

I think utilitarianism is difficult because we can't always predict accurately what will cause the least harm and the most happiness, and you never know the person you save might convert anyway. You never know who you are saving.

Lesley

shelloid [shelloid]27 February 2002 16:00 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

so you would rather condemn someone to death. IMO I wouldn't be able not to give blood just because a meateater may benefit.............to me it's about saving any life.

> I still have to repay what my son needed for his heart operation , but after that I don't know I don't feel I should help to keep

> animal eaters alive .

> Convince me someone

To send an email to -

February 28, 2002

Apart from my Drama group "aquaintances" ,

all my friends are vegan . If I move from Nottingham it will have to be to a town with a fairly strong AR group

I couldn't manage anymore not to have vegan friends

Our fast food takeaway , V1 is about 95% vegan and owned by a vegan .

If I didn't go to work I could live my life ( except for shopping never talking to animal eaters) I sometimes forget how lonely it is, being the only vegan . It was so long ago (at uni) when I was in that position

-

Jo

Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:05 PM

Re: Re: off topic...this can't be I would have no friends if I waited for only vegans. I know one vegan at work .... but she likes Britney Spears and doesn't know what heavy metal is, and is a Christian and doesn't have anything in common with my Paganism. She doesn't like gardening or Sci Fi so when we've finished talking about the weather - there's nothing left to say. At least with my omnivore friends I have fun things in common with them.

Jo

--"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:50 PM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

You have done great that both your kids went veggie or vegan, you have a lot to be proud of there. There must have been something you did right in raising them with compassionate values, even though they were not actually raised veggie or vegan.

I couldn't feel as close to omnivores as I could to vegetarians and vegans personally, so of course ever since becoming veggie then vegan I have always sought out like-minded friends as a high priority in life - that is hard when you have young kids and don't drive and have to seek them out very locally.

As a teenager I felt I could not stay friends with my best friend, not really cos of her eating meat, as I could delude myself that she was in denial until she got engaged to a man who worked in Winsford Bacon factory (ie slaughterhouse)! That was too much for me to deal with. I felt it meant that she knew the full horror of slaughter and still did not care, and I could not have anything to do with him of course! I sometimes wonder if I was wrong to assume that she knew anything about his job, since my hubby is a programmer and yet I don't understand anything about computers, it's only thanks to him I can be online!

Lesley

Jo [Heartwork]28 February 2002 12:04 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

Lesley

I agree that our love for our family and friends is inconsistent with feelings on veganism. My daughter was an omnivore longer than the rest of us, but I still loved her just the same, and I would now if she were still an omnivore. All of my friends are omnivores, and while it would be nice if they were vegan, they are still my friends and I would not wish harm on them.

The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help save the lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that is causing more death.

We don't have to be perfect to do some good.

Jo

--"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:19 AM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

But there is the argument that by saving a meat-eater's life we are condemning many animals to death, that is why I can understand that from a utilitarian viewpoint it is a difficult issue for vegans. Thyis is about how to cause the greatest overall happiness and the least overall suffering.

It's like my viewpoint on abortion, some vegans have pointed out that by being pro-life and wanting to save babies from abortion, the more babies live the more animals die to feed them, but I'm still pro-life because I am not a utilitarian and I value human life too, and I believe humans have a potential for good and should all get a chance at life.

I will still give blood (when I am allowed to, I had my daughter too recently to be allowed to give blood yet) while being aware of the possible inconsistency with wanting to create a more vegan world.

I really want my mother to quit smoking so that she will live longer and be less likely to die of cancer, but that would mean she would live longer and eat more animals, so I would say that I want even more for her to go veggie or vegan, but even if she doesn't change her diet I still want her to stop smoking, and that is probably inconsistent with causing less overall suffering.

We most of us have particular attachments to particular individuals (human and animal), and this makes us less able to be consistent sometimes with hoping for what is most vegan, and makes us less likely to make utilitarian decisions.

I think utilitarianism is difficult because we can't always predict accurately what will cause the least harm and the most happiness, and you never know the person you save might convert anyway. You never know who you are saving.

Lesley

shelloid [shelloid]27 February 2002 16:00 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

so you would rather condemn someone to death. IMO I wouldn't be able not to give blood just because a meateater may benefit.............to me it's about saving any life.

> I still have to repay what my son needed for his heart operation , but after that I don't know I don't feel I should help to keep

> animal eaters alive .

> Convince me someone

To send an email to -

March 1, 2002

inject it with hormones, let it rot a bit, cook it with puss and

glue, maybe a little chicken menstration too. Marinate it in fecal

matter and urine.... MmmmmMmmmmm Good flesh foods for you.

Paul

, EBbrewpunx@c... wrote:

> they wouldn't eat it because it was vegan?

> did you offer to stick it in a cage fer awhile, and make it suffer?

maybe they were missing that part of it...

> fraggle

>

> " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote:

>

> >I'd still find it hard if they refused to even try a vegan cake I

had made,

> >if I knew it tasted fine, but they refused just because it was

vegan.

> >I know what you mean about being too busy to think about issues

and make a

> >lifestyle change at certain times in your life! The people I most

admire who

> >go veggie/vegan are those who make the transition with their

families when

> >they have two or three young children. That is amazing, and these

are the

> >people we must support and encourage the most, hence my belief in

the

> >importance of vegan groups being family-friendly and if they are

fairly big

> >they should be able to provide creches when they have meetings

with speakers

> >so that open-minded omnis with young families can easily attend.

> >

> >I was quite upset when my friends as well as family in my teenage

years did

> >not grow with me, I suppose I expected them to suddenly see the

light as I

> >had, and that they would agree with me once I explained it.

> >

> >Lesley

> >

> > Jo [Heartwork@b...]

> > 28 February 2002 15:06

> >

> > Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

> >

> > Thanks Lesley. I think we all grew together. The reason it

took a long

> >time to turn veggie was because we were too busy doing other

things to even

> >think about it. I can't understand how now - but that's the way

it was.

> >When we turned veggie my daughter was very pleased to cook

delicious

> >veggie/vegan meals for us when we visited her. She is a fantastic

cook. I

> >never tried to urge her to become veggie - I hate forcing my views

on

> >people, but then one day she said she was veggie, and three months

after

> >that her partner turned veggie as well.

> >

> > I would have no friends if I waited for only vegans. I know one

vegan at

> >work .... but she likes Britney Spears and doesn't know what

heavy metal

> >is, and is a Christian and doesn't have anything in common with my

Paganism.

> >She doesn't like gardening or Sci Fi so when we've finished

talking about

> >the weather - there's nothing left to say. At least with my

omnivore

> >friends I have fun things in common with them.

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > --

> > " All truth passes through 3 stages.

> > First, it is ridiculed.

> > Second, it is violently opposed.

> > Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. "

> > - Arthur Schopenhauer

> >

> > -

> > Lesley Dove

> >

> > Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:50 PM

> > RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

> >

> > You have done great that both your kids went veggie or vegan,

you have a

> >lot to be proud of there. There must have been something you did

right in

> >raising them with compassionate values, even though they were not

actually

> >raised veggie or vegan.

> > I couldn't feel as close to omnivores as I could to

vegetarians and

> >vegans personally, so of course ever since becoming veggie then

vegan I have

> >always sought out like-minded friends as a high priority in life -

that is

> >hard when you have young kids and don't drive and have to seek

them out very

> >locally.

> > As a teenager I felt I could not stay friends with my best

friend, not

> >really cos of her eating meat, as I could delude myself that she

was in

> >denial until she got engaged to a man who worked in Winsford Bacon

factory

> >(ie slaughterhouse)! That was too much for me to deal with. I felt

it meant

> >that she knew the full horror of slaughter and still did not care,

and I

> >could not have anything to do with him of course! I sometimes

wonder if I

> >was wrong to assume that she knew anything about his job, since my

hubby is

> >a programmer and yet I don't understand anything about computers,

it's only

> >thanks to him I can be online!

> >

> > Lesley

> >

> > Jo [Heartwork@b...]

> > 28 February 2002 12:04

> >

> > Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

> >

> > Lesley

> >

> > I agree that our love for our family and friends is

inconsistent with

> >feelings on veganism. My daughter was an omnivore longer than the

rest of

> >us, but I still loved her just the same, and I would now if she

were still

> >an omnivore. All of my friends are omnivores, and while it would

be nice if

> >they were vegan, they are still my friends and I would not wish

harm on

> >them.

> >

> > The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help

save the

> >lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that is

causing more

> >death.

> >

> > We don't have to be perfect to do some good.

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > --

> > " All truth passes through 3 stages.

> > First, it is ridiculed.

> > Second, it is violently opposed.

> > Third, it is accepted as being self-

evident. "

> > - Arthur Schopenhauer

> >

> > -

> > Lesley Dove

> >

> > Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:19 AM

> > RE: Re: off topic...this can't be

true

> >

> > But there is the argument that by saving a meat-eater's

life we are

> >condemning many animals to death, that is why I can understand

that from a

> >utilitarian viewpoint it is a difficult issue for vegans. Thyis is

about how

> >to cause the greatest overall happiness and the least overall

suffering.

> >

> > It's like my viewpoint on abortion, some vegans have

pointed out

> >that by being pro-life and wanting to save babies from abortion,

the more

> >babies live the more animals die to feed them, but I'm still pro-

life

> >because I am not a utilitarian and I value human life too, and I

believe

> >humans have a potential for good and should all get a chance at

life.

> >

> > I will still give blood (when I am allowed to, I had my

daughter too

> >recently to be allowed to give blood yet) while being aware of the

possible

> >inconsistency with wanting to create a more vegan world.

> >

> > I really want my mother to quit smoking so that she will

live longer

> >and be less likely to die of cancer, but that would mean she would

live

> >longer and eat more animals, so I would say that I want even more

for her to

> >go veggie or vegan, but even if she doesn't change her diet I

still want her

> >to stop smoking, and that is probably inconsistent with causing

less overall

> >suffering.

> >

> > We most of us have particular attachments to particular

individuals

> >(human and animal), and this makes us less able to be consistent

sometimes

> >with hoping for what is most vegan, and makes us less likely to

make

> >utilitarian decisions.

> >

> > I think utilitarianism is difficult because we can't

always predict

> >accurately what will cause the least harm and the most happiness,

and you

> >never know the person you save might convert anyway. You never

know who you

> >are saving.

> >

> > Lesley

> >

> > shelloid [shelloid@l...]

> > 27 February 2002 16:00

> >

> > Re: Re: off topic...this can't be

true

> >

> > so you would rather condemn someone to death. IMO I

wouldn't be

> >able not to give blood just because a meateater may

benefit.............to

> >me it's about saving any life.

> > > I still have to repay what my son needed for his

heart

> >operation , but after that I don't know I don't feel I should

help to keep

> > > animal eaters alive .

> > > Convince me someone

> >

> > To send an email to

> >-

> >

March 1, 2002

How did you cope when your kids were young though? Surely you felt cut off from other vegan friends quite a bit then, if you couldn't often get to AR or veggie social groups?

I do feel cut off, as it's a lot of effort to get to see other vegans in real life when there aren't any just round the corner from us.

I rely on knowing people like you online at the moment for the most part, as it's sometimes only about quarter yearly (certainly never more than once a month at the best of times - like when the Chai meals were happening regularly and going well for a year or so before we had Lucy) that we get to meet up in real life with vegans.

Dreading the move to the Ashford area (Middlesex not Kent), there seems to be nothing happening there, but I will as soon as possible after moving try to get a letter in the paper asking for vegan and veggie people in the area to get in touch and I'll put up a notice in Health Food Shops if they will let me. Anyway probably won't have the flat ready for moving for about a year, with all the repairmen and decorators we have to have in (bathroom is being done at Easter).

Lesley

Angie Wright [angiewright]28 February 2002 21:59 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

Apart from my Drama group "aquaintances" ,

all my friends are vegan . If I move from Nottingham it will have to be to a town with a fairly strong AR group

I couldn't manage anymore not to have vegan friends

Our fast food takeaway , V1 is about 95% vegan and owned by a vegan .

If I didn't go to work I could live my life ( except for shopping never talking to animal eaters) I sometimes forget how lonely it is, being the only vegan . It was so long ago (at uni) when I was in that position

-

Jo

Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:05 PM

Re: Re: off topic...this can't be I would have no friends if I waited for only vegans. I know one vegan at work .... but she likes Britney Spears and doesn't know what heavy metal is, and is a Christian and doesn't have anything in common with my Paganism. She doesn't like gardening or Sci Fi so when we've finished talking about the weather - there's nothing left to say. At least with my omnivore friends I have fun things in common with them.

Jo

--"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:50 PM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

You have done great that both your kids went veggie or vegan, you have a lot to be proud of there. There must have been something you did right in raising them with compassionate values, even though they were not actually raised veggie or vegan.

I couldn't feel as close to omnivores as I could to vegetarians and vegans personally, so of course ever since becoming veggie then vegan I have always sought out like-minded friends as a high priority in life - that is hard when you have young kids and don't drive and have to seek them out very locally.

As a teenager I felt I could not stay friends with my best friend, not really cos of her eating meat, as I could delude myself that she was in denial until she got engaged to a man who worked in Winsford Bacon factory (ie slaughterhouse)! That was too much for me to deal with. I felt it meant that she knew the full horror of slaughter and still did not care, and I could not have anything to do with him of course! I sometimes wonder if I was wrong to assume that she knew anything about his job, since my hubby is a programmer and yet I don't understand anything about computers, it's only thanks to him I can be online!

Lesley

Jo [Heartwork]28 February 2002 12:04 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

Lesley

I agree that our love for our family and friends is inconsistent with feelings on veganism. My daughter was an omnivore longer than the rest of us, but I still loved her just the same, and I would now if she were still an omnivore. All of my friends are omnivores, and while it would be nice if they were vegan, they are still my friends and I would not wish harm on them.

The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help save the lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that is causing more death.

We don't have to be perfect to do some good.

Jo

--"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:19 AM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

But there is the argument that by saving a meat-eater's life we are condemning many animals to death, that is why I can understand that from a utilitarian viewpoint it is a difficult issue for vegans. Thyis is about how to cause the greatest overall happiness and the least overall suffering.

It's like my viewpoint on abortion, some vegans have pointed out that by being pro-life and wanting to save babies from abortion, the more babies live the more animals die to feed them, but I'm still pro-life because I am not a utilitarian and I value human life too, and I believe humans have a potential for good and should all get a chance at life.

I will still give blood (when I am allowed to, I had my daughter too recently to be allowed to give blood yet) while being aware of the possible inconsistency with wanting to create a more vegan world.

I really want my mother to quit smoking so that she will live longer and be less likely to die of cancer, but that would mean she would live longer and eat more animals, so I would say that I want even more for her to go veggie or vegan, but even if she doesn't change her diet I still want her to stop smoking, and that is probably inconsistent with causing less overall suffering.

We most of us have particular attachments to particular individuals (human and animal), and this makes us less able to be consistent sometimes with hoping for what is most vegan, and makes us less likely to make utilitarian decisions.

I think utilitarianism is difficult because we can't always predict accurately what will cause the least harm and the most happiness, and you never know the person you save might convert anyway. You never know who you are saving.

Lesley

shelloid [shelloid]27 February 2002 16:00 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

so you would rather condemn someone to death. IMO I wouldn't be able not to give blood just because a meateater may benefit.............to me it's about saving any life.

> I still have to repay what my son needed for his heart operation , but after that I don't know I don't feel I should help to keep

> animal eaters alive .

> Convince me someone

To send an email to -

March 1, 2002

The details of the killing didn't have to be understood by me, I just suddenly knew it was wrong to kill for food and that we didn't need to do it, sometime in my late teens I decided this, even before I knew about factory farming and how so many food animals had miserable lives before they were killed. Unfortunately some people do not take the "reverence for life" position which I took (indeed many vegans do not even take anything close to that position as can be seen from the flak I get from many vegans for being pro-life on abortion), most people have funny ideas and believe that killing to eat is ethically OK if it is done painlessly. Maybe my friend really believed he was doing it painlessly with proper anaesthetic, and that slaughter is like putting a terminally ill pet to sleep, I don't know how much she knew about the fear and pain the animals suffered. She just didn't want to be bothered with thinking about it, I did try to talk to her about it. She was not prepared to face the truth of what he was doing as his job.

She married the chap and had a family too.

Lesley

Angie Wright [angiewright]28 February 2002 21:47 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

You know he doesn't directly harm anyone/thing in his job . You know it is a machine he is involved with .

Your friend knew her chap worked with animals and that they ended up dead.!! Details don't have to be understood necessarily

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:50 PM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

IAs a teenager I felt I could not stay friends with my best friend, not really cos of her eating meat, as I could delude myself that she was in denial until she got engaged to a man who worked in Winsford Bacon factory (ie slaughterhouse)! That was too much for me to deal with. I felt it meant that she knew the full horror of slaughter and still did not care, and I could not have anything to do with him of course! I sometimes wonder if I was wrong to assume that she knew anything about his job, since my hubby is a programmer and yet I don't understand anything about computers, it's only thanks to him I can be online!

Lesley

Jo [Heartwork]28 February 2002 12:04 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

Lesley

I agree that our love for our family and friends is inconsistent with feelings on veganism. My daughter was an omnivore longer than the rest of us, but I still loved her just the same, and I would now if she were still an omnivore. All of my friends are omnivores, and while it would be nice if they were vegan, they are still my friends and I would not wish harm on them.

The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help save the lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that is causing more death.

We don't have to be perfect to do some good.

Jo

--"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:19 AM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

But there is the argument that by saving a meat-eater's life we are condemning many animals to death, that is why I can understand that from a utilitarian viewpoint it is a difficult issue for vegans. Thyis is about how to cause the greatest overall happiness and the least overall suffering.

It's like my viewpoint on abortion, some vegans have pointed out that by being pro-life and wanting to save babies from abortion, the more babies live the more animals die to feed them, but I'm still pro-life because I am not a utilitarian and I value human life too, and I believe humans have a potential for good and should all get a chance at life.

I will still give blood (when I am allowed to, I had my daughter too recently to be allowed to give blood yet) while being aware of the possible inconsistency with wanting to create a more vegan world.

I really want my mother to quit smoking so that she will live longer and be less likely to die of cancer, but that would mean she would live longer and eat more animals, so I would say that I want even more for her to go veggie or vegan, but even if she doesn't change her diet I still want her to stop smoking, and that is probably inconsistent with causing less overall suffering.

We most of us have particular attachments to particular individuals (human and animal), and this makes us less able to be consistent sometimes with hoping for what is most vegan, and makes us less likely to make utilitarian decisions.

I think utilitarianism is difficult because we can't always predict accurately what will cause the least harm and the most happiness, and you never know the person you save might convert anyway. You never know who you are saving.

Lesley

shelloid [shelloid]27 February 2002 16:00 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

so you would rather condemn someone to death. IMO I wouldn't be able not to give blood just because a meateater may benefit.............to me it's about saving any life.

> I still have to repay what my son needed for his heart operation , but after that I don't know I don't feel I should help to keep

> animal eaters alive .

> Convince me someone

To send an email to -

March 1, 2002

I agree with Jo. Even though I'm vegan, that doesn't mean that's the

only thing I care about! I have plenty of outside interests and I

care more about the person inside than what they eat. It would be

*nice* to have vegan or vegetarian friends besides my boyfriend.

However, I've met many at various functions and never really cliqued

with any of them.

Also, if I am to exclude meat-eating people from being my friends,

how am I to set a good example and spread the word? I truly believe

in living by example - not by preaching. I respect my friends'

decisions and they respect mine - and I've gotten many of my friends

to eat less meat. I have at least 3 friends that will eat a black

bean burger or a boca burger over a hamburger because of my

influences. I can't say I've " converted " anyone, but veganism is not

a religion and I'm not out to " convert " people anyway. If they agree

with my philosophies, they will begin to change in their own time.

To each his own, I guess - but I'm not going to turn down a

friendship with someone I truly like because they eat meat.

~ Dawn

, " Angie Wright " <angiewright@n...> wrote:

> Apart from my Drama group " aquaintances " ,

> all my friends are vegan . If I move from Nottingham it will have

to be to a town with a fairly strong AR group

> I couldn't manage anymore not to have vegan friends

> Our fast food takeaway , V1 is about 95% vegan and owned by a

vegan .

> If I didn't go to work I could live my life ( except for shopping

never talking to animal eaters) I sometimes forget how lonely it is,

being the only vegan . It was so long ago (at uni) when I was in that

position

>

> Angie

> -

> Jo

>

> Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:05 PM

> Re: Re: off topic...this can't be I would

have no friends if I waited for only vegans. I know one vegan at

work .... but she likes Britney Spears and doesn't know what heavy

metal is, and is a Christian and doesn't have anything in common with

my Paganism. She doesn't like gardening or Sci Fi so when we've

finished talking about the weather - there's nothing left to say. At

least with my omnivore friends I have fun things in common with them.

>

> Jo

>

> --

> " All truth passes through 3 stages.

> First, it is ridiculed.

> Second, it is violently opposed.

> Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. "

> - Arthur Schopenhauer

>

> -

> Lesley Dove

>

> Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:50 PM

> RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

>

> You have done great that both your kids went veggie or vegan,

you have a lot to be proud of there. There must have been something

you did right in raising them with compassionate values, even though

they were not actually raised veggie or vegan.

> I couldn't feel as close to omnivores as I could to vegetarians

and vegans personally, so of course ever since becoming veggie then

vegan I have always sought out like-minded friends as a high priority

in life - that is hard when you have young kids and don't drive and

have to seek them out very locally.

> As a teenager I felt I could not stay friends with my best

friend, not really cos of her eating meat, as I could delude myself

that she was in denial until she got engaged to a man who worked in

Winsford Bacon factory (ie slaughterhouse)! That was too much for me

to deal with. I felt it meant that she knew the full horror of

slaughter and still did not care, and I could not have anything to do

with him of course! I sometimes wonder if I was wrong to assume that

she knew anything about his job, since my hubby is a programmer and

yet I don't understand anything about computers, it's only thanks to

him I can be online!

>

> Lesley

>

> Jo [Heartwork@b...]

> 28 February 2002 12:04

>

> Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

>

> Lesley

>

> I agree that our love for our family and friends is

inconsistent with feelings on veganism. My daughter was an omnivore

longer than the rest of us, but I still loved her just the same, and

I would now if she were still an omnivore. All of my friends are

omnivores, and while it would be nice if they were vegan, they are

still my friends and I would not wish harm on them.

>

> The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help

save the lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that

is causing more death.

>

> We don't have to be perfect to do some good.

>

> Jo

March 1, 2002

Lesley

>>>>>I know what you mean about being too busy to think about issues and make a lifestyle change at certain times in your life! The people I most admire who go veggie/vegan are those who make the transition with their families when they have two or three young children. That is amazing, and these are the people we must support and encourage the most, hence my belief in the importance of vegan groups being family-friendly and if they are fairly big they should be able to provide creches when they have meetings with speakers so that open-minded omnis with young families can easily >>>>>attend.

I do agree. I suppose my attitudes are slighly different because I was in my mid forties when I gave up eating meat.

>>>>>I was quite upset when my friends as well as family in my teenage years did not grow with me, I suppose I expected them to suddenly see the light as I had, and >>>>>that they would agree with me once I explained it.

I can understand that too. I think because I changed when I was older, I find it a little easier to accept the fact that others haven't.

Jo

---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02

March 1, 2002

Neither do the people.

Jo

Cats don't know any better

Angie

-

Jo

Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:03 PM

Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

Lesley

.. All of my friends are omnivores, and while it would be nice if they were vegan, they are still my friends and I would not wish harm on them.

The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help save the lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that is causing more death.

Jo

--"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:19 AM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

But there is the argument that by saving a meat-eater's life we are condemning many animals to death, that is why I can understand that from a utilitarian viewpoint it is a difficult issue for vegans. Thyis is about how to cause the greatest overall happiness and the least overall suffering.

It's like my viewpoint on abortion, some vegans have pointed out that by being pro-life and wanting to save babies from abortion, the more babies live the more animals die to feed them, but I'm still pro-life because I am not a utilitarian and I value human life too, and I believe humans have a potential for good and should all get a chance at life.

I will still give blood (when I am allowed to, I had my daughter too recently to be allowed to give blood yet) while being aware of the possible inconsistency with wanting to create a more vegan world.

I really want my mother to quit smoking so that she will live longer and be less likely to die of cancer, but that would mean she would live longer and eat more animals, so I would say that I want even more for her to go veggie or vegan, but even if she doesn't change her diet I still want her to stop smoking, and that is probably inconsistent with causing less overall suffering.

We most of us have particular attachments to particular individuals (human and animal), and this makes us less able to be consistent sometimes with hoping for what is most vegan, and makes us less likely to make utilitarian decisions.

I think utilitarianism is difficult because we can't always predict accurately what will cause the least harm and the most happiness, and you never know the person you save might convert anyway. You never know who you are saving.

Lesley

shelloid [shelloid]27 February 2002 16:00 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

so you would rather condemn someone to death. IMO I wouldn't be able not to give blood just because a meateater may benefit.............to me it's about saving any life.

> I still have to repay what my son needed for his heart operation , but after that I don't know I don't feel I should help to keep

> animal eaters alive .

> Convince me someone

To send an email to -

March 1, 2002

Angie

I know only the one vegan at work, and one veggie - that's about it really. I don't see them outside work because we all have different interests/family lives, so I would be pretty lonely if I didn't mix with non-veggies. Basically, I like people, and liketo have fun.

Jo

Apart from my Drama group "aquaintances" ,

all my friends are vegan . If I move from Nottingham it will have to be to a town with a fairly strong AR group

I couldn't manage anymore not to have vegan friends

Our fast food takeaway , V1 is about 95% vegan and owned by a vegan .

If I didn't go to work I could live my life ( except for shopping never talking to animal eaters) I sometimes forget how lonely it is, being the only vegan . It was so long ago (at uni) when I was in that position

-

Jo

Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:05 PM

Re: Re: off topic...this can't be I would have no friends if I waited for only vegans. I know one vegan at work .... but she likes Britney Spears and doesn't know what heavy metal is, and is a Christian and doesn't have anything in common with my Paganism. She doesn't like gardening or Sci Fi so when we've finished talking about the weather - there's nothing left to say. At least with my omnivore friends I have fun things in common with them.

Jo

--"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:50 PM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

You have done great that both your kids went veggie or vegan, you have a lot to be proud of there. There must have been something you did right in raising them with compassionate values, even though they were not actually raised veggie or vegan.

I couldn't feel as close to omnivores as I could to vegetarians and vegans personally, so of course ever since becoming veggie then vegan I have always sought out like-minded friends as a high priority in life - that is hard when you have young kids and don't drive and have to seek them out very locally.

As a teenager I felt I could not stay friends with my best friend, not really cos of her eating meat, as I could delude myself that she was in denial until she got engaged to a man who worked in Winsford Bacon factory (ie slaughterhouse)! That was too much for me to deal with. I felt it meant that she knew the full horror of slaughter and still did not care, and I could not have anything to do with him of course! I sometimes wonder if I was wrong to assume that she knew anything about his job, since my hubby is a programmer and yet I don't understand anything about computers, it's only thanks to him I can be online!

Lesley

Jo [Heartwork]28 February 2002 12:04 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

Lesley

I agree that our love for our family and friends is inconsistent with feelings on veganism. My daughter was an omnivore longer than the rest of us, but I still loved her just the same, and I would now if she were still an omnivore. All of my friends are omnivores, and while it would be nice if they were vegan, they are still my friends and I would not wish harm on them.

The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help save the lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that is causing more death.

We don't have to be perfect to do some good.

Jo

--"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:19 AM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

But there is the argument that by saving a meat-eater's life we are condemning many animals to death, that is why I can understand that from a utilitarian viewpoint it is a difficult issue for vegans. Thyis is about how to cause the greatest overall happiness and the least overall suffering.

It's like my viewpoint on abortion, some vegans have pointed out that by being pro-life and wanting to save babies from abortion, the more babies live the more animals die to feed them, but I'm still pro-life because I am not a utilitarian and I value human life too, and I believe humans have a potential for good and should all get a chance at life.

I will still give blood (when I am allowed to, I had my daughter too recently to be allowed to give blood yet) while being aware of the possible inconsistency with wanting to create a more vegan world.

I really want my mother to quit smoking so that she will live longer and be less likely to die of cancer, but that would mean she would live longer and eat more animals, so I would say that I want even more for her to go veggie or vegan, but even if she doesn't change her diet I still want her to stop smoking, and that is probably inconsistent with causing less overall suffering.

We most of us have particular attachments to particular individuals (human and animal), and this makes us less able to be consistent sometimes with hoping for what is most vegan, and makes us less likely to make utilitarian decisions.

I think utilitarianism is difficult because we can't always predict accurately what will cause the least harm and the most happiness, and you never know the person you save might convert anyway. You never know who you are saving.

Lesley

shelloid [shelloid]27 February 2002 16:00 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

so you would rather condemn someone to death. IMO I wouldn't be able not to give blood just because a meateater may benefit.............to me it's about saving any life.

> I still have to repay what my son needed for his heart operation , but after that I don't know I don't feel I should help to keep

> animal eaters alive .

> Convince me someone

To send an email to -

March 1, 2002

That is your choice who to be friends with, maybe having a like-minded partner is enough for you and you don't feel the pressing need for other veggie/vegan friends.

I couldn't click with a person who was an animal-eater so easily as you seem to. We all have to talk to animal eaters but we don't have to see them as close friends if we are not comfortable with that, any more than you have to be friends with veggies you don't click with. It bothers me that some vegans think I have a strange attitude to animal eaters, and yet the same vegans don't think it strange not to want to be friends with fascists and racists, and mostly they would not be friends with such people. No-one has yet explained why they think the two are different, they just say they are and for me that is not an explanation, and I am not convinced! Please anyone feel free to explain why it is different. Since animal-eaters are like Nazis in their attitudes towards animals, I see little difference. I would do things of interest with animal-eaters but probably only feel they were acquaintances, and I can be polite but always feel a barrier between us. I'd be the same with a person whose political beliefs I found abhorrent, such as a racist, I'd be polite, but not actually able to feel they were a friend.

One of my longstanding vegetarian friends, someone I definitely liked and admired, dropped me a few years ago just because I was pro-life, and I was shocked that this was a problem for her. And yet she has double standards because she is friends with plenty of animal-eaters who were all pro-choice. I asked her to explain this strange inconsistency in her tolerance, but she was unable to explain me why she could tolerate what they did but was not able to tolerate my views. I thought this was really unfair that she dropped me for having my principles of respect for life, when I was able to tolerate her not agreeing with me and I didn't even consider dropping being friends with her even though she had an abortion! I was devastated to hear that she had done that, and yet I did not give her a bad time of it, the way you probably don't give your friends a hard time of their meat-eating. It would have served her right if some of her animal-eating pro-choicer friends had dropped her, for having higher principles than they had, even though she accepted them while not agreeing with them, then she might have understood why it was wrong for her to drop me for being pro-life.

Lesley

dmressel [dmressel]01 March 2002 17:53 Subject: Re: off topic...this can't be trueI agree with Jo. Even though I'm vegan, that doesn't mean that's the only thing I care about! I have plenty of outside interests and I care more about the person inside than what they eat. It would be *nice* to have vegan or vegetarian friends besides my boyfriend. However, I've met many at various functions and never really cliqued with any of them.Also, if I am to exclude meat-eating people from being my friends, how am I to set a good example and spread the word? I truly believe in living by example - not by preaching. I respect my friends' decisions and they respect mine - and I've gotten many of my friends to eat less meat. I have at least 3 friends that will eat a black bean burger or a boca burger over a hamburger because of my influences. I can't say I've "converted" anyone, but veganism is not a religion and I'm not out to "convert" people anyway. If they agree with my philosophies, they will begin to change in their own time.To each his own, I guess - but I'm not going to turn down a friendship with someone I truly like because they eat meat. ~ Dawn, "Angie Wright" <angiewright@n...> wrote:> Apart from my Drama group "aquaintances" ,> all my friends are vegan . If I move from Nottingham it will have to be to a town with a fairly strong AR group > I couldn't manage anymore not to have vegan friends> Our fast food takeaway , V1 is about 95% vegan and owned by a vegan . > If I didn't go to work I could live my life ( except for shopping never talking to animal eaters) I sometimes forget how lonely it is, being the only vegan . It was so long ago (at uni) when I was in that position > > Angie> - > Jo > > Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:05 PM> Re: Re: off topic...this can't be I would have no friends if I waited for only vegans. I know one vegan at work .... but she likes Britney Spears and doesn't know what heavy metal is, and is a Christian and doesn't have anything in common with my Paganism. She doesn't like gardening or Sci Fi so when we've finished talking about the weather - there's nothing left to say. At least with my omnivore friends I have fun things in common with them.> > Jo> > --> "All truth passes through 3 stages.> First, it is ridiculed.> Second, it is violently opposed.> Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."> - Arthur Schopenhauer> > - > Lesley Dove > > Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:50 PM> RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true> > > You have done great that both your kids went veggie or vegan, you have a lot to be proud of there. There must have been something you did right in raising them with compassionate values, even though they were not actually raised veggie or vegan.> I couldn't feel as close to omnivores as I could to vegetarians and vegans personally, so of course ever since becoming veggie then vegan I have always sought out like-minded friends as a high priority in life - that is hard when you have young kids and don't drive and have to seek them out very locally.> As a teenager I felt I could not stay friends with my best friend, not really cos of her eating meat, as I could delude myself that she was in denial until she got engaged to a man who worked in Winsford Bacon factory (ie slaughterhouse)! That was too much for me to deal with. I felt it meant that she knew the full horror of slaughter and still did not care, and I could not have anything to do with him of course! I sometimes wonder if I was wrong to assume that she knew anything about his job, since my hubby is a programmer and yet I don't understand anything about computers, it's only thanks to him I can be online!> > Lesley> > Jo [Heartwork@b...]> 28 February 2002 12:04> > Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true> > > Lesley> > I agree that our love for our family and friends is inconsistent with feelings on veganism. My daughter was an omnivore longer than the rest of us, but I still loved her just the same, and I would now if she were still an omnivore. All of my friends are omnivores, and while it would be nice if they were vegan, they are still my friends and I would not wish harm on them.> > The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help save the lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that is causing more death.> > We don't have to be perfect to do some good.> > JoTo send an email to -

March 1, 2002

Lesley

My only true friends are Colin, Laura and Peter, but we like to mix socially with other people. I have never met people who agree with more than about 50% of my beliefs. I would be really happy if everyone was vegan, Pagan and metal lovers, but just cannot find people (other than my three specials) who have all of those interests. I do feel a need to connect, albeit on a superficial level, with others.

I do not think you are strange at all for wanting vegan friends. We all have different criteria.

Jo

That is your choice who to be friends with, maybe having a like-minded partner is enough for you and you don't feel the pressing need for other veggie/vegan friends.

I couldn't click with a person who was an animal-eater so easily as you seem to. We all have to talk to animal eaters but we don't have to see them as close friends if we are not comfortable with that, any more than you have to be friends with veggies you don't click with. It bothers me that some vegans think I have a strange attitude to animal eaters, and yet the same vegans don't think it strange not to want to be friends with fascists and racists, and mostly they would not be friends with such people. No-one has yet explained why they think the two are different, they just say they are and for me that is not an explanation, and I am not convinced! Please anyone feel free to explain why it is different. Since animal-eaters are like Nazis in their attitudes towards animals, I see little difference. I would do things of interest with animal-eaters but probably only feel they were acquaintances, and I can be polite but always feel a barrier between us. I'd be the same with a person whose political beliefs I found abhorrent, such as a racist, I'd be polite, but not actually able to feel they were a friend.

One of my longstanding vegetarian friends, someone I definitely liked and admired, dropped me a few years ago just because I was pro-life, and I was shocked that this was a problem for her. And yet she has double standards because she is friends with plenty of animal-eaters who were all pro-choice. I asked her to explain this strange inconsistency in her tolerance, but she was unable to explain me why she could tolerate what they did but was not able to tolerate my views. I thought this was really unfair that she dropped me for having my principles of respect for life, when I was able to tolerate her not agreeing with me and I didn't even consider dropping being friends with her even though she had an abortion! I was devastated to hear that she had done that, and yet I did not give her a bad time of it, the way you probably don't give your friends a hard time of their meat-eating. It would have served her right if some of her animal-eating pro-choicer friends had dropped her, for having higher principles than they had, even though she accepted them while not agreeing with them, then she might have understood why it was wrong for her to drop me for being pro-life.

Lesley

dmressel [dmressel]01 March 2002 17:53 Subject: Re: off topic...this can't be trueI agree with Jo. Even though I'm vegan, that doesn't mean that's the only thing I care about! I have plenty of outside interests and I care more about the person inside than what they eat. It would be *nice* to have vegan or vegetarian friends besides my boyfriend. However, I've met many at various functions and never really cliqued with any of them.Also, if I am to exclude meat-eating people from being my friends, how am I to set a good example and spread the word? I truly believe in living by example - not by preaching. I respect my friends' decisions and they respect mine - and I've gotten many of my friends to eat less meat. I have at least 3 friends that will eat a black bean burger or a boca burger over a hamburger because of my influences. I can't say I've "converted" anyone, but veganism is not a religion and I'm not out to "convert" people anyway. If they agree with my philosophies, they will begin to change in their own time.To each his own, I guess - but I'm not going to turn down a friendship with someone I truly like because they eat meat. ~ Dawn, "Angie Wright" <angiewright@n...> wrote:> Apart from my Drama group "aquaintances" ,> all my friends are vegan . If I move from Nottingham it will have to be to a town with a fairly strong AR group > I couldn't manage anymore not to have vegan friends> Our fast food takeaway , V1 is about 95% vegan and owned by a vegan . > If I didn't go to work I could live my life ( except for shopping never talking to animal eaters) I sometimes forget how lonely it is, being the only vegan . It was so long ago (at uni) when I was in that position > > Angie> - > Jo > > Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:05 PM> Re: Re: off topic...this can't be I would have no friends if I waited for only vegans. I know one vegan at work .... but she likes Britney Spears and doesn't know what heavy metal is, and is a Christian and doesn't have anything in common with my Paganism. She doesn't like gardening or Sci Fi so when we've finished talking about the weather - there's nothing left to say. At least with my omnivore friends I have fun things in common with them.> > Jo> > --> "All truth passes through 3 stages.> First, it is ridiculed.> Second, it is violently opposed.> Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."> - Arthur Schopenhauer> > - > Lesley Dove > > Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:50 PM> RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true> > > You have done great that both your kids went veggie or vegan, you have a lot to be proud of there. There must have been something you did right in raising them with compassionate values, even though they were not actually raised veggie or vegan.> I couldn't feel as close to omnivores as I could to vegetarians and vegans personally, so of course ever since becoming veggie then vegan I have always sought out like-minded friends as a high priority in life - that is hard when you have young kids and don't drive and have to seek them out very locally.> As a teenager I felt I could not stay friends with my best friend, not really cos of her eating meat, as I could delude myself that she was in denial until she got engaged to a man who worked in Winsford Bacon factory (ie slaughterhouse)! That was too much for me to deal with. I felt it meant that she knew the full horror of slaughter and still did not care, and I could not have anything to do with him of course! I sometimes wonder if I was wrong to assume that she knew anything about his job, since my hubby is a programmer and yet I don't understand anything about computers, it's only thanks to him I can be online!> > Lesley> > Jo [Heartwork@b...]> 28 February 2002 12:04> > Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true> > > Lesley> > I agree that our love for our family and friends is inconsistent with feelings on veganism. My daughter was an omnivore longer than the rest of us, but I still loved her just the same, and I would now if she were still an omnivore. All of my friends are omnivores, and while it would be nice if they were vegan, they are still my friends and I would not wish harm on them.> > The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help save the lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that is causing more death.> > We don't have to be perfect to do some good.> > JoTo send an email to -

March 1, 2002

People have the intelligence to know better, well most of them do allegedly.

Lesley

Jo [Heartwork]01 March 2002 19:42 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

Neither do the people.

Jo

Cats don't know any better

Angie

-

Jo

Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:03 PM

Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

Lesley

.. All of my friends are omnivores, and while it would be nice if they were vegan, they are still my friends and I would not wish harm on them.

The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help save the lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that is causing more death.

Jo

--"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:19 AM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

But there is the argument that by saving a meat-eater's life we are condemning many animals to death, that is why I can understand that from a utilitarian viewpoint it is a difficult issue for vegans. Thyis is about how to cause the greatest overall happiness and the least overall suffering.

It's like my viewpoint on abortion, some vegans have pointed out that by being pro-life and wanting to save babies from abortion, the more babies live the more animals die to feed them, but I'm still pro-life because I am not a utilitarian and I value human life too, and I believe humans have a potential for good and should all get a chance at life.

I will still give blood (when I am allowed to, I had my daughter too recently to be allowed to give blood yet) while being aware of the possible inconsistency with wanting to create a more vegan world.

I really want my mother to quit smoking so that she will live longer and be less likely to die of cancer, but that would mean she would live longer and eat more animals, so I would say that I want even more for her to go veggie or vegan, but even if she doesn't change her diet I still want her to stop smoking, and that is probably inconsistent with causing less overall suffering.

We most of us have particular attachments to particular individuals (human and animal), and this makes us less able to be consistent sometimes with hoping for what is most vegan, and makes us less likely to make utilitarian decisions.

I think utilitarianism is difficult because we can't always predict accurately what will cause the least harm and the most happiness, and you never know the person you save might convert anyway. You never know who you are saving.

Lesley

shelloid [shelloid]27 February 2002 16:00 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

so you would rather condemn someone to death. IMO I wouldn't be able not to give blood just because a meateater may benefit.............to me it's about saving any life.

> I still have to repay what my son needed for his heart operation , but after that I don't know I don't feel I should help to keep

> animal eaters alive .

> Convince me someone

To send an email to -

March 1, 2002

Here here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Janey

x

Cats don't know any better

Angie

The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help save the lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that is causing more death.

Jo

March 1, 2002

Too busy working and of course after Robert was born I had other things to worry about . Then Peter was a slow developer so friends were nowhere in the frame!!

Then we moved and the marriage went on the rocks.

I worked and came home when at home I was surrounded by vegans I never had time to do anything other than go to work /look after the kids /go to bed .At week ends I had to shop/do housework/kids clubsetc.

It is only now that I actually have the time and energy to socialise and so I associate with Veggies and do Demos We did a circus demo on Wed and this evening

Tomorrow we are doing a stall in the city

Once your children are older you will be able to let them help with a stall or leave them at home . Then you will have some freedom to seek out vegan friends ,but of course they come and go . In Nottm only 2 are always there . Others are around then disappear for a month or two then turn up again.

But there are always vegans on AR demos and sometimes we do one a week. I find them emotionally uplifting. I read the shac website every day . That gives me a boost too .

Good luck with Ashford .You may find its better than where you are now. Kids grow up very fast so you'll soon be able to do Demos again.

And until then there's always us!!!!

-

Lesley Dove

Friday, March 01, 2002 12:05 PM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

How did you cope when your kids were young though? Surely you felt cut off from other vegan friends quite a bit then, if you couldn't often get to AR or veggie social groups?

I do feel cut off, as it's a lot of effort to get to see other vegans in real life when there aren't any just round the corner from us.

..

Dreading the move to the Ashford area (Middlesex not Kent), there seems to be nothing happening there, but I will as soon as possible after moving try to get a letter in the paper asking for vegan and veggie people in the area to get in touch and I'll put up a notice in Health Food Shops if they will let me.

March 1, 2002

What you say makes sense but I cannot truely like some one who eats

animals I feel a kind of contempt for them if I have discussed it with them

and they are not going to change . I find that I am out to convert (so that

animal lives will be saved ). I feel the same about animal eaters as I would

about rapists etc I couldn't have a rapist for a friend . I would not feel

comfortable with either of them

-

" dmressel " <dmressel

Friday, March 01, 2002 5:52 PM

Re: off topic...this can't be true

> I agree with Jo. Even though I'm vegan, that doesn't mean that's the

> only thing I care about! I have plenty of outside interests and I

> care more about the person inside than what they eat. It would be

> *nice* to have vegan or vegetarian friends besides my boyfriend.

> However, I've met many at various functions and never really cliqued

> with any of them.

>

> Also, if I am to exclude meat-eating people from being my friends,

> how am I to set a good example and spread the word? I truly believe

> in living by example - not by preaching. I respect my friends'

> decisions and they respect mine - and I've gotten many of my friends

> to eat less meat. I have at least 3 friends that will eat a black

> bean burger or a boca burger over a hamburger because of my

> influences. I can't say I've " converted " anyone, but veganism is not

> a religion and I'm not out to " convert " people anyway. If they agree

> with my philosophies, they will begin to change in their own time.

>

> To each his own, I guess - but I'm not going to turn down a

> friendship with someone I truly like because they eat meat.

>

> ~ Dawn

>

March 1, 2002

People can read ,they see TV. Westerners do Know but there are none so blind as those who won't see !!

Angie

-

Jo

Friday, March 01, 2002 7:42 PM

Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

Neither do the people.

Jo

Cats don't know any better

Angie

March 1, 2002

I don't share interests with my vegan friends either ,(age differences ) but we do stalls together and AR Demos. They are good company But I don't socialise( in the normal meaning of the word ) with them . Demos are a form of socialising that omnivores probably never experience (unless political etc )

-

Jo

Friday, March 01, 2002 7:45 PM

Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

I know only the one vegan at work, and one veggie - that's about it really. I don't see them outside work because we all have different interests/family lives, so I would be pretty lonely if I didn't mix with non-veggies. Basically, I like people, and liketo have fun.

Jo

Apart from my Drama group "aquaintances" ,

all my friends are vegan . If I move from Nottingham it will have to be to a town with a fairly strong AR group

I couldn't manage anymore not to have vegan friends

Our fast food takeaway , V1 is about 95% vegan and owned by a vegan .

If I didn't go to work I could live my life ( except for shopping never talking to animal eaters) I sometimes forget how lonely it is, being the only vegan . It was so long ago (at uni) when I was in that position

-

Jo

Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:05 PM

Re: Re: off topic...this can't be I would have no friends if I waited for only vegans. I know one vegan at work .... but she likes Britney Spears and doesn't know what heavy metal is, and is a Christian and doesn't have anything in common with my Paganism. She doesn't like gardening or Sci Fi so when we've finished talking about the weather - there's nothing left to say. At least with my omnivore friends I have fun things in common with them.

Jo

--"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:50 PM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

You have done great that both your kids went veggie or vegan, you have a lot to be proud of there. There must have been something you did right in raising them with compassionate values, even though they were not actually raised veggie or vegan.

I couldn't feel as close to omnivores as I could to vegetarians and vegans personally, so of course ever since becoming veggie then vegan I have always sought out like-minded friends as a high priority in life - that is hard when you have young kids and don't drive and have to seek them out very locally.

As a teenager I felt I could not stay friends with my best friend, not really cos of her eating meat, as I could delude myself that she was in denial until she got engaged to a man who worked in Winsford Bacon factory (ie slaughterhouse)! That was too much for me to deal with. I felt it meant that she knew the full horror of slaughter and still did not care, and I could not have anything to do with him of course! I sometimes wonder if I was wrong to assume that she knew anything about his job, since my hubby is a programmer and yet I don't understand anything about computers, it's only thanks to him I can be online!

Lesley

Jo [Heartwork]28 February 2002 12:04 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

Lesley

I agree that our love for our family and friends is inconsistent with feelings on veganism. My daughter was an omnivore longer than the rest of us, but I still loved her just the same, and I would now if she were still an omnivore. All of my friends are omnivores, and while it would be nice if they were vegan, they are still my friends and I would not wish harm on them.

The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help save the lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that is causing more death.

We don't have to be perfect to do some good.

Jo

--"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

-

Lesley Dove

Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:19 AM

RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true

But there is the argument that by saving a meat-eater's life we are condemning many animals to death, that is why I can understand that from a utilitarian viewpoint it is a difficult issue for vegans. Thyis is about how to cause the greatest overall happiness and the least overall suffering.

It's like my viewpoint on abortion, some vegans have pointed out that by being pro-life and wanting to save babies from abortion, the more babies live the more animals die to feed them, but I'm still pro-life because I am not a utilitarian and I value human life too, and I believe humans have a potential for good and should all get a chance at life.

I will still give blood (when I am allowed to, I had my daughter too recently to be allowed to give blood yet) while being aware of the possible inconsistency with wanting to create a more vegan world.

I really want my mother to quit smoking so that she will live longer and be less likely to die of cancer, but that would mean she would live longer and eat more animals, so I would say that I want even more for her to go veggie or vegan, but even if she doesn't change her diet I still want her to stop smoking, and that is probably inconsistent with causing less overall suffering.

We most of us have particular attachments to particular individuals (human and animal), and this makes us less able to be consistent sometimes with hoping for what is most vegan, and makes us less likely to make utilitarian decisions.

I think utilitarianism is difficult because we can't always predict accurately what will cause the least harm and the most happiness, and you never know the person you save might convert anyway. You never know who you are saving.

Lesley

shelloid [shelloid]27 February 2002 16:00 Subject: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

so you would rather condemn someone to death. IMO I wouldn't be able not to give blood just because a meateater may benefit.............to me it's about saving any life.

> I still have to repay what my son needed for his heart operation , but after that I don't know I don't feel I should help to keep

> animal eaters alive .

> Convince me someone

To send an email to -

March 1, 2002

I would be interested in knowing more about paganism . One of our veg/vegan social group members is a wiccan. Its the same thing isn't it ? Is there a website . ? I searched once but kept finding foreign stuff

-

Jo

Friday, March 01, 2002 8:39 PM

Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true

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off topic...this can't be true

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