Guest guest Report post Posted January 22, 2002 Sometimes drink is necessary if one wants to procreate----men aren't always that good !!! Have you seen my ex !!!!!!! ( He lurks on one of the sites I'm on-- I wonder if its this one ?) > > > > > > 4. I believe that nobody who drinks alcohol should be allowed to > > reproduce because they are sometimes drunk. > > > > I can dig that...heh... > > > > Chris X > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 22, 2002 Hi Kim > How can they claim to care about the enviroment and not be vegan?- exploiting animals and the grazing of animals for food is the biggest > enviromental disaster there is,?? I agree it seems an odd conflict - but the fact is that the world would be a *worse* place without these people - their one failing IMO is that they eat meat - which, to be blunt, is far less than the failings I observe in many vegans! > Living within the laws of nature,- is the only way to live, and man's biggest failure, Which is an absolute ethic of all Pagan paths - but relatively few Pagans are also vegans. >Man has to deal with fundamental issues first and correct his diet, The first "fundamental issue" that man has to deal with is fascist, self-righteous attitudes - while people are still trying to tell each other who should and should not be allowed to live or breed, diet comes a very poor second place. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 02/01/02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 22, 2002 Hi Angie > I don't trust environmentalists they seem to want to protect things so numbers won't decline and affect them --No fish to eat -No > whales to look at --No otters to hunt. Ironically, none of the environmentalists I know fit your description - they want to let nature be nature - their concern is with preventing further destruction such as road building, destroying green belt etc. I think you're thinking of "conservationsts" who are a very different kettle of fish. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 02/01/02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 22, 2002 Kimberley >How can they claim to care about the enviroment and not be vegan?- exploiting animals and >the grazing of animals for food is the biggest enviromental disaster there is,?? Caring and wisdom do not necessarily go together. Can you honestly say that you have thought about every aspect of life and know about everything. Had you thought that maybe at least half the population of the world is okay (maybe just ignorant) and that we are ~all~ exploited (just like animals) by the top people. If our leaders were all caring people, maybe the mass of people would automatically stop eating meat and be more caring. Most people just carry on doing the things that they and their ancestors have always done, through ignorance, or maybe because it is considered normal to eat meat. Have you considered everything you do, and then considered whether you do it because you were brought up thinking that action to be normal. Maybe we on this list are luckier than a lot of people, and have time, and the brain cells, and the inclination, to think about these things. In many parts of the world people are just busy surviving! some of them in environments with hardly any vegetation. The other point I wish to make is that a lot of vegans seem to think they are nice people (nicer than other people). My experience is that the proportion of nice/nasty vegans is about the same as nice/nasty people in the rest of the population. Maybe we should all think about how 'nice' we are, and whether anyone has a right to say who should and who shouldn't breed. If we are going to say that, then maybe we should allow 'nice' vegans and 'nice' non-vegans to breed. That way we would have a race of 'nice' people, and the non-vegans amongst them would stand more chance of educating the 'nice' non-vegans so that they would become vegan. I wish to reiterate that I do not agree with saying who and who cannot breed. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 02/01/02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 22, 2002 I know Angie - so did we. Jo > I did my bit for the cause !!!!!! --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 02/01/02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 22, 2002 Angie I think the problem is that the title of 'environmentalist' is given to some person or group of people, when they are actually employed by a company that makes profit. Unfortunately some of the charities behave in the same manner - hence me leaving the RSPB because of their Nazi attitudes to species. (I hear they are going to kill of wild mink now!) Jo I don't trust environmentalists they seem to want to protect things so numbers won't decline and affect them --No fish to eat -No whales to look at --No otters to hunt . When the numbers increase thet can kill them again They don't consider the individual wanting to live its life Hence some birds are valuable but pigeons of no importance and need killing They are often not vegan because it is a " How does it affect me" philosophy Of course those who are vegans first will have a less selfish approach to the envronment if they regard themselves as environmentalists imo Angie - Peter Tuesday, January 22, 2002 5:24 PM Re: Re: Humanity Hi Kim > carnivore man has created an ugly world ,destroyed the planet,eats a very unnatural diet Most of the Druids I know are very active in environmental issues, but none of them are vegan. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 02/01/02To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 22, 2002 Just a thought, instead of criticizing them you could put that energy towards educating them! Maybe some people just don't know??? Negative people like you are what make people scared of vegans and therefore think we're nuts. > Most of the Druids I know are very active in environmental issues, but none of them are vegan. yes,and they're all hypocrites. Chris X Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 22, 2002 Yes your right I was mixing them up Silly me Angie - Peter Tuesday, January 22, 2002 6:50 PM Re: Re: Humanity Hi Angie > I don't trust environmentalists they seem to want to protect things so numbers won't decline and affect them --No fish to eat -No > whales to look at --No otters to hunt. Ironically, none of the environmentalists I know fit your description - they want to let nature be nature - their concern is with preventing further destruction such as road building, destroying green belt etc. I think you're thinking of "conservationsts" who are a very different kettle of fish. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 02/01/02To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 22, 2002 They just have their favourites Frightening really as we won't be among their favourites when "culling " Humans starts ---- when we run out of space Angie - Jo Tuesday, January 22, 2002 7:32 PM Re: Re: Humanity I think the problem is that the title of 'environmentalist' is given to some person or group of people, when they are actually employed by a company that makes profit. Unfortunately some of the charities behave in the same manner - hence me leaving the RSPB because of their Nazi attitudes to species. (I hear they are going to kill of wild mink now!) Jo I don't trust environmentalists they seem to want to protect things so numbers won't decline and affect them --No fish to eat -No whales to look at --No otters to hunt . When the numbers increase thet can kill them again They don't consider the individual wanting to live its life Hence some birds are valuable but pigeons of no importance and need killing They are often not vegan because it is a " How does it affect me" philosophy Of course those who are vegans first will have a less selfish approach to the envronment if they regard themselves as environmentalists imo Angie - Peter Tuesday, January 22, 2002 5:24 PM Re: Re: Humanity Hi Kim > carnivore man has created an ugly world ,destroyed the planet,eats a very unnatural diet Most of the Druids I know are very active in environmental issues, but none of them are vegan. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 02/01/02To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 22, 2002 I doubt if the person who said it was being serious ---surely it was a joke ???? Angie - Peter Tuesday, January 22, 2002 6:48 PM Re: Re: Humanity > Living within the laws of nature,- is the >The first "fundamental issue" that man has to deal with is fascist, self-righteous attitudes - while people are still trying to tell each other who should and should not be allowed to live or breed, diet comes a very poor second place. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 02/01/02To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 23, 2002 > >Most of the Druids I know are very active in environmental issues, but none of them are vegan. > > How can they claim to care about the enviroment and not be vegan?- exploiting animals and the grazing of animals for food is the biggest enviromental disaster there is,?? Hi Kim To my mind there isn't necessarily a contradiction between 'caring about the environment' and being omnivorous- the problem isn't so much 'the grazing of animals' per se as the industrialisation of agriculture, including animal pharming... Some thoughts; I think it's a misnomer to imagine that a vegan diet/lifestyle is automatically more environmentaly sustainable than one which incorporates animal products. I've begun to explore the issue in my article at http://pages.unisonfree.net/gburnett/essay/veganperm.htm A couple of further thoughts; 1. My partner's sister and her family used to be travellers- on two occasions that I can recall they used animal products rather than vegan alternatives, these being, once they ate fish caught from a local stream, and on another occasion used milk from a goat from the place where they happened to be staying- to my mind these were both examples where they were showing more awareness and sensitivity towards issues such as sustainability than by following vegan dogma (eg, using local resources rather than highly processed soya products which had been grown as a cash crop half way accross the world and imported to the UK with all the food miles issues that implies). 2. Kathleen jannaway in her 'Abundant Living In The Coming Age Of The Tree' (see MCL website, http://www.mclveganway.org.uk/ )argues convincingly for a tree based future where animal farming has been phazed out- but this would also mean the end of pasture and grassland ecologies which are primarily managed by grazing cattle and are in themselves valuable and biodiverse habitats- is this desirable? 3. also, not all of the earth's surface is suited to growing plants which can be directly consumed by human beings- I just found this in the Gaia Atlas Of Planet Management; " Most domesticated animals forage off of plants that offer no sustenance to humans, thus they are not competing with humans. When we count in remote rangelands, forests, and other little recognised stock-supporting territories, domestic animals make use of 6 billion ha of land, or almost half the planet's ice free surface. They thereby mobilize much plant material to our benefit- and they do it with no adverse consequences for natural environments, except when their numbers rise to unsustainable levels. At the opposite end of the spectrum, however, one calories of grain fed steak costs at least 10 calories in it's production- an absurdly inefficient way for us to nourish ourselves. About 40% of world cereal production goes to feed livestock- and in richer countries, the figure is sometimes as high as 75% (in the US 90%). The land on which this animal feed is grown is reffered to as 'ghost hectarage'- it adds a further 40 million ha of land required to support livestock in the US alone " . > > Living within the laws of nature,- is the only way to live, and man's biggest failure, > So what do you understand to be the 'laws of nature' and in what way does peoplekind fail to follow them by not being vegan? Of course the industrialisation of animal farming (and agriculture in general) is an abomination, and I certainly wouldn't be trying to justify that but I don't think that by trying to live within systems which are modelled on observation and replication of natural patterns (eg, permaculture) would necessarily exclude animals from those systems... The usual Animal Rights arguement seems to run that by eating/using animals we (by 'we' I mean peoplekind in general) are assuming that we are 'superior' to other animals and thus have the 'right' to use them as we see fit, and that this is both arrogance and intrinsically ethically wrong. Perhaps so. But by accepting that we are a part of the earth and it's natural systems, not apart from it (as is the belief of druid and pagan faiths as I believe), we need to realise that we are but players within a constant cycle of birth, life, growth, death, and decay... matter and energy is constantly changing state and form... There is no 'superior' or 'inferior', everything has it's part to play and is essential in the order of things... The fox that eats the rabbit does not consider itself 'superior' to that rabbit, just as the rabbit does not consider itself 'superior' to the grass that it grazes. When the fox or rabbit dies or shits, do the worms, bacteria and insects which break down those bodily 'wastes' into soil, humus and nutrients consider themselves 'superior' to the fox? Does the plant which absorbs those nutrients consider itself 'superior' before it too is devoured by the next generation of rabbits??? Just as the idea of 'superiority' and 'higher' or 'lower' species is a very human, flawed and narrow construct, so to is the notion that we can stand outside of such cycles, however hard we may try... Our assumption that we are at the 'top' of a 'food chain' (whether vegan or omnivorous), rather than an integral part of a holistic and interconnected web has led us to what can only be described as pathological cultural behaviours like flushing our shit out to sea and burning our dead rather than letting them be returned to the earth for re-absorption. As a (modern) species we truly do only take from the Gaian bank account and never put anything back (same analogy holds for our usage of fossil fuels rather than renewables, and resource usage in general). To me this issue of re-engaging with the ecosystem, reconnecting with gaia and it's cycles is more crucial than than the vegan/omnivore dichotomy. Many cultures and peoples have used and coexisted with animals in ways that are sustainable and respectful, and it does seem a little incongruous for, say, the pastoral Masai of East africa, to be described as 'animal exploiters' by vegans primarily living on a diet based around over packaged, imported, resource guzzling soya products... Cheers, Graham www.landandliberty.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 23, 2002 > Most of the Druids I know are very active in environmental issues, but none of them are vegan. yes,and they're all hypocrites. Chris X Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 23, 2002 The first "fundamental issue" that man has to deal with is fascist, self-righteous attitudes - while people are still trying to tell each other who should and should not be allowed to live or breed, diet comes a very poor second place. No, I'm not a fascist, -most people are very ignorant and its our society that corrupt and brainwashes them into living the way they do. I believe in educating people and changing society , not dictating to people Kim BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 02/01/02To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 23, 2002 Chris That doesn't necessarily follow. They may not have given it any thought. They are obviously trying hard to do some good. Just because we think we have sussed out the best way for the world doesn't mean we are right, and that there are no other viewpoints. When talking about animal rights activists you often hear people say 'oh they only care about animals, they aren't interested in people'. ... and that does seem to be the case a lot of the time. How can we expect people to take an interest in our views if we openly say that we care about animals but don't give a stuff about people? To a ~normal~ member of society - this attitude says that we are mad and unbalanced people - so why should they listen to us or embrace our values? Worth pondering on I think. Jo > > Most of the Druids I know are very active in environmental issues, > but none of them are vegan. > > > yes,and they're all hypocrites. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 02/01/02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 23, 2002 Kimberley Saying that other people should not be allowed to breed is fascist. Jo No, I'm not a fascist, -most people are very ignorant and its our society that corrupt and brainwashes them into living the way they do. I believe in educating people and changing society , not dictating to people ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 02/01/02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 23, 2002 Saying that other people should not be allowed to breed is fascist. I'm only thinking of the future of humanity, -you just have to look around and see how sick the world has become,and how sick the children of meateaters are. What about the children? we have to be responsible for our future generations. Ideally it would be great if we lived in a vegan world, but education is the key Kim Jo No, I'm not a fascist, -most people are very ignorant and its our society that corrupt and brainwashes them into living the way they do. I believe in educating people and changing society , not dictating to people ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 02/01/02To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 23, 2002 Kimberley I'm only thinking of the future of humanity, -you just have to look around and see how sick the world has become,and how sick the children of meateaters are. What about the children? we have to be responsible for our future generations. Ideally it would be great if we lived in a vegan world, but education is the key Sounds good until you realise that Hitler probably thought his actions were based on good intentions. How many people did his regime render infertile by operation because he thought he was protecting the future of humanity? I think you are wrong to assume that the children of meateaters are any more sick than the children of vegans. We produced two very caring children while we were meateaters. I have always thought that education is the answer, but this does not fit in with your idea of not allowing non-vegans to reproduce. I'm sorry Kimberley, I find your idea as sick as eating meat. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 02/01/02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 23, 2002 >Sounds good until you realise that Hitler probably thought his actions were based on good intentions. How many people did his regime render infertile by operation because he thought he was protecting the future of humanity? How can you compare veganism to Nazi terrorists? I'm shocked and very disgusted. The second world war killed and imprisoned millions of people just like the meat/dairy industries are doing to animals! stop these revolting remarks! >I think you are wrong to assume that the children of meateaters are any more sick than the children of vegans. We produced two very caring children while we were meateaters. Children of meat- eaters eat a very unhealthy and unnatural diet, of refined sugar, saturated fat, dairy pus, and growth hormones, is that healthy? I think its very sad and shocking what I see alot of kids are eating today , junk food, ice cream and industrial waste, and there is also an epidemic of childhood illnesses, obesity, asthma, high cholesterol levels, onset of early puberty,etc. These are all diet related and I never see vegan children with these illnesses. I'm pleased you changed your diet ,if only for the sake of your children I'm sorry Kimberley, I find your idea as sick as eating meat. I find meat-eating sick and abusing innocent lives, Kim Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 02/01/02To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 23, 2002 Kimberley > How can you compare veganism to Nazi terrorists? I'm shocked and very disgusted. The second world war killed and > imprisoned millions of people just like the meat/dairy industries are doing to animals! stop these revolting remarks! I have never compared veganism to nazi terrorists. I fail to see how you make this assumption from what I have said, unless you are being deliberately pedantic. I compare your suggestion to nazi terrorists, who, as you rightly say, act similarly to the meat industry. Controlling the breeding of non-vegans is not a part of veganism. It is your own personal opinion, and you cannot claim to be the voice of veganism. Nazi terrorists also removed the testicles and cut the fallopian tubes of the people they thought unfit to reproduce. This is exactly what you have suggested doing to non-vegans by stating that they should not be allowed to reproduce. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 02/01/02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 23, 2002 >How can you compare veganism to Nazi terrorists? I'm shocked and very > >disgusted. The second world war killed and imprisoned millions of >people >just like the meat/dairy industries are doing to animals! stop >these >revolting remarks! I usually just lurk here, but I have to jump in and defend Jo. She wasn't comparing veganism to Nazi terrorists. She was comparing the act of designating " breeders " to the acts of Hilter. I think that it was a pretty good comparison. I'm a vegan, and I would be appalled if people assumed that I thought only vegans should breed. In the future, please don't associate veganism to the practise of selective breeding. Anita _______________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 23, 2002 Controlling the breeding of non-vegans is not a part of veganism. It is your own personal opinion, and you cannot claim to be the voice of veganism. In response to Chris's email, I said that I would like to see peace and harmony in the world and suggested my thoughts on the matter. I think the human race is in dire straits and needs some radical reform, but ultimately I feel that carnivore man will wipe himself out before all this happens anyway. I'm sure we all would like to see a vegan world? and veganism is the answer Kim like to live in a vegan world Nazi terrorists also removed the testicles and cut the fallopian tubes of the people they thought unfit to reproduce. This is exactly what you have suggested doing to non-vegans by stating that they should not be allowed to reproduce. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 02/01/02To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 23, 2002 I agree, Jo. Except that to be pedantic, Kim would have to be right about the detail she is fixating on. Not only is she wrong to equate her idealogical cleansing with veganism, her use of language is too confused and imprecise (terrrorism equated with genocide, war confused with holocaust) to be pedantic. (I'm nit-picking about the meaning of the world 'pedantic'. How pedantic is that? . ) <I have never compared veganism to nazi terrorists. I fail to see how you make this assumption from what I have said, unless you are being deliberately pedantic. I compare your suggestion to nazi terrorists, who, as you rightly say, act similarly to the meat industry. Controlling the breeding of non-vegans is not a part of veganism. It is your own personal opinion, and you cannot claim to be the voice of veganism. Nazi terrorists also removed the testicles and cut the fallopian tubes of the people they thought unfit to reproduce. This is exactly what you have suggested doing to non-vegans by stating that they should not be allowed to reproduce.> -- Ian McDonald http://www.mcdonald.me.uk/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 23, 2002 Chris > > Most of the Druids I know are very active in environmental issues, > > but none of them are vegan. > yes,and they're all hypocrites. So, which of the Druids that I know have you met? Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 02/01/02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 23, 2002 Hi Ian > (I'm nit-picking about the meaning of the world 'pedantic'. How pedantic > is that? . ) Ummm - isn't that called " Metapedantic " ? (OK, I know I'm taking this to extremes now!!! :-)) BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.313 / Virus Database: 174 - Release 02/01/02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 23, 2002 Peter wrote: > > Hi Ian > > > (I'm nit-picking about the meaning of the world 'pedantic'. How pedantic > > is that? . ) > > Ummm - isn't that called " Metapedantic " ? (OK, I know I'm taking this to > extremes now!!! :-)) I think it is . -- Ian McDonald http://www.mcdonald.me.uk/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
