Denim 'best protection from sun'

[Guest guest]

[[if you are using a product that means keeping animals for the purpose of gaining that product then you cannot be vegan.]]

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, honestly I'm not, but what about people who use the manure from a pet goat or miniature donkey on their garden? I have an excellent lawn and flowers thanks to the unwitting contributions of my dog and rabbits; it isn't the only reason I keep them of course, am I really exploiting them by using something they cannot help producing anyway?

 

 

[Guest guest]

You talk about cotton being used for food but think grazing of sheep for wool is what ??? also cotton is only one of many fibers..as I have stated there is bamboo..fast growing .. very soft fiber , soy , stalk part used for yarn (soy yarn) , , linen , hemp .. kelp from the ocean coming out now for yarn .. so the purpose of wanting more people to use animals for their clothing would be what ..? if you want to get Angara rabbits to use the fur or buy them adding to the breeders profits .., I would disagree this is vegan..if you rescued some angora rabbits .. took care of them and necessarily removed some or all fur for their benefit thus have wool for yours ..with no motives except their welfare ..then I would agree this would be vegan .. as to help animals in need , care for them to the best of your ability I would consider a kind and thoughtful act ..not thoughtless...Oom Yaaqub <oomyaaqub wrote: [[if you are using a product that means keeping animals for the purpose of gaining that product then you cannot be vegan.]] I'm not trying to be argumentative, honestly I'm not, but what about people who use the manure from a pet goat or miniature donkey on their garden? I have an excellent lawn and flowers thanks to the unwitting contributions of my dog and

rabbits; it isn't the only reason I keep them of course, am I really exploiting them by using something they cannot help producing anyway?

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out

new cars at Autos.

[Guest guest]

I am not trying to attack anyone but rather show a point of view they some may not have considered .. as example..Shepherd ..as pretty as that word sounds..this is still someone making a living from animals .. and in essence the animals are commodities , they are not lost sheep being cared for ... so please think about this..what happens to those sheep who are not good producers or have become to old..Does the shepherd care for them till their natural death ? I know many people who own sheep,llamas,goats etc ..being involved in the knitwear business for many years .. and some do take fair to good care of these animals , but is it truly ever for the animals benefit ..No.. and when decisions are made of who to put down or sell to meat industry or who is too costly to keep any longer ..the animals needs is not the first concern .. so if you want to rescue some and care for them (some animals even naturally shed ).. you could brush, trim or shear for

their benefit and knit away .. but anyone who uses animals for their benefit thereby putting themselves above the animal can not be considered vegan .. last just for info any animal including angora rabbits that do take special care ..can be brushed to stop the matting and any small mats that form would be cut off .. this needs to be done daily and the need to be kept clean .. please do not say you must shear them ..Not true .. but you must give a lot of care to their fur ..a lot!Oom Yaaqub <oomyaaqub wrote: [[if you are using a product that means keeping animals for the purpose of gaining that product then you cannot be vegan.]] I'm not trying to be argumentative, honestly I'm not, but what about people who use the manure from a pet goat or miniature donkey on their garden? I have an excellent lawn and flowers thanks to the unwitting contributions of my dog and rabbits; it isn't the only reason I keep them of course, am I really exploiting them by using something they cannot help producing anyway?

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out

new cars at Autos.

[Guest guest]

Whatever your reasoning - it is against the vegan ethic.

 

Jo

 

, " Oom Yaaqub " <oomyaaqub wrote:

>

> [[Rabbits are farmed on a highly intensive " factory farm " system or

by individual farmers producing on a smaller scale.]]

>

> I wasn't talking about raising rabbits on a commercial scale. Many

people including myself have owned rabbits as house pets. I have not

personally owned Angoras but I know people who do. Harvesting the

wool isn't cruel in the least; in fact it MUST be done regularly for

the sake of the animal. They can be given the run of a " rabbit

proofed " house or just a safe room (kitchens are ideal), they will

use a litter box, and in all respects can be treated like the pets

they are. Mine would walk on a leash, munch on the lawn in nice

weather, and loved rides in the car--they were like vegetarian dogs.

I would never tolerate or support any abuse of rabbits; I don't even

like keeping them in cages! Anyway, my thought was to get a few

Angoras eventually and to try my hand at hand spinning in what would

obviously be a very small scale. BTW, there are people who utilize

the hair of their Old English Sheepdogs in a similar manner.

>

> If I ever got into hand spinning in a big way, I would have to find

a shepherd I actually knew, so I would KNOW they were treating their

animals properly. Realistically, this isn't likely to happen any time

soon, if ever. But I do know that humane wool is a possibility, and

it is probably a good thing for the planet. Cotton is grown on land

that could otherwise be used for food crops, but sheep and other

fiber animals can be raised on hilly pasture. That means more land

remains available for parks and wilderness areas. The survival of

wildlife is absolutely dependent on preserving their habitats.

>

[Guest guest]

I would think it would take a very long time to get enough fur from a

pet rabbit to make an article of clothing.

 

Jo

 

, connie bell <caromiotk wrote:

>

> I am not trying to attack anyone but rather show a point of view

they some may not have considered .. as example..Shepherd ..as pretty

as that word sounds..this is still someone making a living from

animals .. and in essence the animals are commodities , they are not

lost sheep being cared for ... so please think about this..what

happens to those sheep who are not good producers or have become to

old..Does the shepherd care for them till their natural death ? I

know many people who own sheep,llamas,goats etc ..being involved in

the knitwear business for many years .. and some do take fair to

good care of these animals , but is it truly ever for the animals

benefit ..No.. and when decisions are made of who to put down or sell

to meat industry or who is too costly to keep any longer ..the

animals needs is not the first concern .. so if you want to rescue

some and care for them (some animals even naturally shed ).. you

could brush, trim or shear for their benefit and knit

> away .. but anyone who uses animals for their benefit thereby

putting themselves above the animal can not be considered vegan ..

last just for info any animal including angora rabbits that do take

special care ..can be brushed to stop the matting and any small mats

that form would be cut off .. this needs to be done daily and the

need to be kept clean .. please do not say you must shear them ..Not

true .. but you must give a lot of care to their fur ..a lot!

>

> Oom Yaaqub <oomyaaqub wrote: [[if you are using

a product that means keeping animals for the purpose of gaining that

product then you cannot be vegan.]]

>

> I'm not trying to be argumentative, honestly I'm not, but what

about people who use the manure from a pet goat or miniature donkey

on their garden? I have an excellent lawn and flowers thanks to the

unwitting contributions of my dog and rabbits; it isn't the only

reason I keep them of course, am I really exploiting them by using

something they cannot help producing anyway?

>

>

>

>

 

> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible " new car " smell?

> Check outnew cars at Autos.

>

[Guest guest]

I believe what you say is still true. There's a very good book called "The Silent Ark" by Juliet Gellaghtly (not sure if I've spelt that right!) about this!

 

BB

Peter

 

-

Oom Yaaqub

Tuesday, May 08, 2007 7:24 PM

Re: Re: Denim 'best protection from sun'

 

 

[[ what about their meat which is the primary reason they are farmed? ]]

 

But that isn't quite true, or at least it wasn't until the mid 20th century. Throughout most of human history, the meat was only a by-product of the much more important (since consumed daily) milk products, eggs, wool, and labor. Ancient people couldn't have consumed all that much meat. Look at the Biblical parable of the prodigal son--it was a huge big deal to slay the fatted calf, something that was reserved for special occasions. I've lived with people from all over the world; to this day most of them eat only tiny bits of meat as part of a meal. American style chops and steaks are highly unusual in most cultures. Of course pigs are an exception to the "byproduct" rule, which is probably the main reason that they became taboo to both Jews and Muslims. People have long recognized something repugnant about keeping an animal whose ONLY function was to be killed for meat. In fact the ancient rabbis specifically mentioned this reason for the taboo.

 

My point though was that I do not eat dairy products and eggs because their production NECESSARILY means the slaughter of "surplus" males one way or another (from the animal's POV it hardly matters whether they are consumed after they are dead or not!) Being a lacto-ovo vegetarian is therefore kind of illogical if you do it for ethical reasons. But I can't see putting wool isn't in the same category because animals of both sexes are used, and there isn't necessarily any slaughter or any cruelty. I don't see how you can reasonably compare wool to leather, say. I also don't see very much difference between keeping a few sheep (or rabbits) for the wool and keeping a horse or a dog. The bottom line is that every living thing, human or animal has to earn its keep in one way or another. That is their dignity in the world. Even dogs are usually happiest when they have some sort of "job" to do.

 

If all this makes me "not" a vegan, then what WOULD you call me, since I do not eat animal products or contribute to animal slaughter in any way?

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think it depends on the reason you have the animals. The only animal product I've used recently has been feathers which my pet budgie moulted and had no further use for - I made dream catchers with them. We didn't have a budgie to produce feathers, we had one because we wanted to look after one and enjoyed its company (and it enjoyed ours).

 

BB

Peter

 

-

Oom Yaaqub

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 1:27 AM

Re: Re: Denim 'best protection from sun'

 

 

[[if you are using a product that means keeping animals for the purpose of gaining that product then you cannot be vegan.]]

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, honestly I'm not, but what about people who use the manure from a pet goat or miniature donkey on their garden? I have an excellent lawn and flowers thanks to the unwitting contributions of my dog and rabbits; it isn't the only reason I keep them of course, am I really exploiting them by using something they cannot help producing anyway?

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

I did have that book but I put it in the coffee room at work so others could read it.

 

BBJo

 

-

metalscarab

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 8:00 AM

Re: Re: Denim 'best protection from sun'

 

I believe what you say is still true. There's a very good book called "The Silent Ark" by Juliet Gellaghtly (not sure if I've spelt that right!) about this!

 

BB

Peter

 

-

Oom Yaaqub

Tuesday, May 08, 2007 7:24 PM

Re: Re: Denim 'best protection from sun'

 

 

[[ what about their meat which is the primary reason they are farmed? ]]

 

But that isn't quite true, or at least it wasn't until the mid 20th century. Throughout most of human history, the meat was only a by-product of the much more important (since consumed daily) milk products, eggs, wool, and labor. Ancient people couldn't have consumed all that much meat. Look at the Biblical parable of the prodigal son--it was a huge big deal to slay the fatted calf, something that was reserved for special occasions. I've lived with people from all over the world; to this day most of them eat only tiny bits of meat as part of a meal. American style chops and steaks are highly unusual in most cultures. Of course pigs are an exception to the "byproduct" rule, which is probably the main reason that they became taboo to both Jews and Muslims. People have long recognized something repugnant about keeping an animal whose ONLY function was to be killed for meat. In fact the ancient rabbis specifically mentioned this reason for the taboo.

 

My point though was that I do not eat dairy products and eggs because their production NECESSARILY means the slaughter of "surplus" males one way or another (from the animal's POV it hardly matters whether they are consumed after they are dead or not!) Being a lacto-ovo vegetarian is therefore kind of illogical if you do it for ethical reasons. But I can't see putting wool isn't in the same category because animals of both sexes are used, and there isn't necessarily any slaughter or any cruelty. I don't see how you can reasonably compare wool to leather, say. I also don't see very much difference between keeping a few sheep (or rabbits) for the wool and keeping a horse or a dog. The bottom line is that every living thing, human or animal has to earn its keep in one way or another. That is their dignity in the world. Even dogs are usually happiest when they have some sort of "job" to do.

 

If all this makes me "not" a vegan, then what WOULD you call me, since I do not eat animal products or contribute to animal slaughter in any way?

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

[[i would think it would take a very long time to get enough fur from a pet rabbit to make an article of clothing.Jo]]

 

Dedicated rabbit people are like cat people; we rarely have just one! I know several people who have seven, eight, or more rabbits as house pets. After all, they don't take up much space! Even one of the Angora breeds produces an incredible amount of wool. That's why I don't have one right now--they just plain take too much care. You CAN'T skip their regular grooming because, unlike cats, they aren't able to spit up a hairball. The obstruction caused by ingested hair can be fatal to a rabbit.

 

[Guest guest]

[[please do not say you must shear them ..Not true . but you must give a lot of care to their fur ..a lot!]]

 

 

I realize there are alternatives to strapping them to a table in shearing them, which is incredibly stressful to a rabbit. Instead, most people I know groom them on a regular basis much as you would groom a show terrier (they aren't clipped with an electric clipper either--it's all done by hand.) It looks like plucking but it's not--you are only taking the loose hairs so it doesn't hurt the animal. If you are gentle about it they actually enjoy it. Then they just save the wool until they have a substantial amount. What you can't do is just neglect their coats, and thank you for pointing that out. I'd to have people get one just because they're cute without realizing home much care they require.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

[[You talk about cotton being used for food but think grazing of sheep for wool is what ??? ]]

 

The point is that animals can graze hilly or marginal land that is NOT suitable for growing crops. I live in Western PA, which is exceedingly hilly. Dairying is a big here for that reason--people figure there's nothing else they can reasonably do with the land. Keeping sheep for wool, if there were more interest in it, would be a humane alternative compared to dairying.

 

I would treat any animal I owned like I treat the pets I already have. That they can also do something useful doesn't mean I love them any less. My husband does some useful things around the house, too, as do I. Does that therefore prove that our relationship is mercenary?

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Arent we missing the original point, that exploiting animals for human gain isnt vegan? The sheep will have been bought from a farmer who has bred them for humans to exploit........unless you are talking rescued sheep? I doubt that there is a stress free way of shearing, as it is not a natural process. Same as sheep dipping - just doesnt happen in the wild does it? If you had a rescued sheep that you were giving sanctuary to, then that would be no different to having a pet cat in my opinion. And if you are going to make it endure shearing, and it is an ewe, why stop there? why exploit it some more and milk it at the same time? The Valley Vegan...........Oom Yaaqub <oomyaaqub wrote: [[please do not say you must shear them ..Not true . but you must give a lot of care to their fur ..a lot!]] I realize there are alternatives to strapping them to a table in shearing them, which is incredibly stressful to a rabbit. Instead, most people I know groom them on a regular basis much as you would groom a show terrier (they aren't clipped with an electric clipper either--it's all done by hand.) It looks like plucking but it's not--you are only taking the loose hairs so it

doesn't hurt the animal. If you are gentle about it they actually enjoy it. Then they just save the wool until they have a substantial amount. What you can't do is just neglect their coats, and thank you for pointing that out. I'd to have people get one just because they're cute without realizing home much care they require. Peter H

 

Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try

it now.

[Guest guest]

I agree with you totally that many have missed this point .. so thanks for reiterating that ..... and I also see as rescued animal in the same way you do ..peter VV <swpgh01 wrote: Arent we missing the original point, that exploiting animals for human gain isnt vegan? The sheep will have been bought from a farmer who has bred them for humans to exploit........unless you are talking rescued sheep? I doubt that there is a stress free way of shearing, as it is

not a natural process. Same as sheep dipping - just doesnt happen in the wild does it? If you had a rescued sheep that you were giving sanctuary to, then that would be no different to having a pet cat in my opinion. And if you are going to make it endure shearing, and it is an ewe, why stop there? why exploit it some more and milk it at the same time? The Valley Vegan...........Oom Yaaqub <oomyaaqub (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote: [[please do not say you must shear them ..Not true . but you must give a lot of care to their fur ..a lot!]] I realize

there are alternatives to strapping them to a table in shearing them, which is incredibly stressful to a rabbit. Instead, most people I know groom them on a regular basis much as you would groom a show terrier (they aren't clipped with an electric clipper either--it's all done by hand.) It looks like plucking but it's not--you are only taking the loose hairs so it doesn't hurt the animal. If you are gentle about it they actually enjoy it. Then they just save the wool until they have a substantial amount. What you can't do is just neglect their coats, and thank you for pointing that out. I'd to have people get one just because they're cute without realizing home much care they require. Peter H Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now.

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[Guest guest]

I don't think it is 'many' who have missed the point, just one. We have all been discussion in the same direction.

 

-

connie bell

Sunday, May 13, 2007 3:01 PM

Re: Re: Denim 'best protection from sun'

I agree with you totally that many have missed this point .. so thanks for reiterating that ..... and I also see as rescued animal in the same way you do ..peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

 

 

Arent we missing the original point, that exploiting animals for human gain isnt vegan?

The sheep will have been bought from a farmer who has bred them for humans to exploit........unless you are talking rescued sheep?

I doubt that there is a stress free way of shearing, as it is not a natural process. Same as sheep dipping - just doesnt happen in the wild does it?

If you had a rescued sheep that you were giving sanctuary to, then that would be no different to having a pet cat in my opinion. And if you are going to make it endure shearing, and it is an ewe, why stop there? why exploit it some more and milk it at the same time?

 

The Valley Vegan...........Oom Yaaqub <oomyaaqub (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

 

 

 

 

[[please do not say you must shear them ..Not true . but you must give a lot of care to their fur ..a lot!]]

 

 

I realize there are alternatives to strapping them to a table in shearing them, which is incredibly stressful to a rabbit. Instead, most people I know groom them on a regular basis much as you would groom a show terrier (they aren't clipped with an electric clipper either--it's all done by hand.) It looks like plucking but it's not--you are only taking the loose hairs so it doesn't hurt the animal. If you are gentle about it they actually enjoy it. Then they just save the wool until they have a substantial amount. What you can't do is just neglect their coats, and thank you for pointing that out. I'd to have people get one just because they're cute without realizing home much care they require.

 

 

 

 

 

Peter H

 

 

 

Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now.

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Now most people here would also think that keeping dogs for showing

is not ethical either.

 

Jo

 

, " Oom Yaaqub " <oomyaaqub wrote:

>

> [[please do not say you must shear them ..Not true .. but you must

give a lot of care to their fur ..a lot!]]

>

> I realize there are alternatives to strapping them to a table in

shearing them, which is incredibly stressful to a rabbit. Instead,

most people I know groom them on a regular basis much as you would

groom a show terrier (they aren't clipped with an electric clipper

either--it's all done by hand.) It looks like plucking but it's not--

you are only taking the loose hairs so it doesn't hurt the animal. If

you are gentle about it they actually enjoy it. Then they just save

the wool until they have a substantial amount. What you can't do is

just neglect their coats, and thank you for pointing that out. I'd to

have people get one just because they're cute without realizing home

much care they require.

>

[Guest guest]

I think you are saying that you agree with farming sheep!

 

This is a vegan site, and I really cannot imagine anyone else here not

being somewhat incensed that you are arguing this point.

 

Jo

 

, " Oom Yaaqub " <oomyaaqub wrote:

>

> [[You talk about cotton being used for food but think grazing of

sheep for wool is what ??? ]]

>

> The point is that animals can graze hilly or marginal land that is

NOT suitable for growing crops. I live in Western PA, which is

exceedingly hilly. Dairying is a big here for that reason--people

figure there's nothing else they can reasonably do with the land.

Keeping sheep for wool, if there were more interest in it, would be a

humane alternative compared to dairying.

>

> I would treat any animal I owned like I treat the pets I already

have. That they can also do something useful doesn't mean I love them

any less. My husband does some useful things around the house, too, as

do I. Does that therefore prove that our relationship is mercenary?

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with you Jo, realy does seem to be condoning the exploitation of sheep, and trying to lighten the argument by comparing DIY to this seems facile. The Valley Vegan..............heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote: I think you are saying that you agree with farming sheep!This is a vegan site, and I really cannot imagine anyone else here not being somewhat incensed that you are arguing this point.Jo , "Oom Yaaqub" <oomyaaqub wrote:>> [[You talk about cotton being used for food but think grazing of sheep for wool is what ??? ]]> > The point is that animals can graze hilly or marginal land that is NOT suitable for growing crops. I live in Western PA, which is exceedingly hilly. Dairying is a big here for that reason--people figure there's nothing else they can reasonably do with the land. Keeping sheep for wool, if there were more interest in it, would be a humane alternative compared to dairying. > > I would treat any animal I owned like I treat the pets I already have. That they can also do something useful doesn't mean I love them any less. My husband does some useful things around the house, too, as do I. Does that therefore prove that our relationship is

mercenary?>Peter H

 

Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your free

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[Guest guest]

To most people, a vegan is someone who consumes no meat, dairy or eggs. I know plenty of people who call themselves vegans but who use wool. The reason for not eating dairy and eggs is that they are normally only acquired by slaughter of the surplus males -- and of course in practice they are usually raised under appalling, cruel conditions, too. The dairy industry is tied to the veal industry, for instance. I insist that "farming sheep" is a different matter because it doesn't NECESSARILY imply any slaughter or cruelty. I would be happy to have my own sheep someday--I have always wanted one, just as a pet. The wool breeds absolutely HAVE to be sheared. I would purchase wool or other fibers from people who I KNOW are treating the animals well, which means personally visiting the farm and buying locally. Talking about the "exploitation" of sheep is surely a joke--they are a domesticated animal that cannot possibly survive in the wild, any more than you could just let your dog loose in the woods. If people stop using wool, domesticated sheep will cease to exist. And I think that would be very sad, as they are wonderful animals.

 

 

 

-

peter VV

Monday, May 14, 2007 2:12 PM

Re: Re: Denim 'best protection from sun'

 

 

 

I agree with you Jo, realy does seem to be condoning the exploitation of sheep, and trying to lighten the argument by comparing DIY to this seems facile.

 

The Valley Vegan..............heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote:

 

 

I think you are saying that you agree with farming sheep!This is a vegan site, and I really cannot imagine anyone else here not being somewhat incensed that you are arguing this point.Jo , "Oom Yaaqub" <oomyaaqub wrote:>> [[You talk about cotton being used for food but think grazing of sheep for wool is what ??? ]]> > The point is that animals can graze hilly or marginal land that is NOT suitable for growing crops. I live in Western PA, which is exceedingly hilly. Dairying is a big here for that reason--people figure there's nothing else they can reasonably do with the land. Keeping sheep for wool, if there were more interest in it, would be a humane alternative compared to dairying. > > I would treat any animal I owned like I treat the pets I already have. That they can also do something useful doesn't mean I love them any less. My husband does some useful things around the house, too, as do I. Does that therefore prove that our relationship is mercenary?>

Peter H

 

 

 

Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your free account today.

[Guest guest]

You seem to be missing the point entirely, they are bred for profit full stop. They may be a genetically altered breed that cant exist without shearing ( which in itself is an unatural occurance for them and stressful ), so why sponsor this by paying someone for them ? you would be encouraging farming of animals which I would think would NOT be vegan. You have obviously made your mind up that sheep farming is acceptable, most if not all ethical vegans would disagree. I do not consider exploitation of any animal a joke. The Valley Vegan...............Oom Yaaqub <oomyaaqub wrote: To most people, a vegan is someone who consumes no meat, dairy or eggs. I know plenty of people who call themselves vegans but who use wool. The reason for not eating dairy and eggs is that they are normally only acquired by slaughter of the surplus males -- and of course in practice they are usually raised under appalling, cruel conditions, too. The dairy industry is tied to the veal industry, for instance. I insist that "farming sheep" is a different matter because it doesn't NECESSARILY imply any slaughter or cruelty. I would be happy to have my own sheep someday--I have always wanted one, just as a pet. The wool breeds absolutely HAVE to be sheared. I would purchase wool or other fibers from people who I KNOW are treating the

animals well, which means personally visiting the farm and buying locally. Talking about the "exploitation" of sheep is surely a joke--they are a domesticated animal that cannot possibly survive in the wild, any more than you could just let your dog loose in the woods. If people stop using wool, domesticated sheep will cease to exist. And I think that would be very sad, as they are wonderful animals. - peter VV Monday, May 14, 2007 2:12 PM Re: Re: Denim 'best protection from sun' I agree with you Jo, realy does seem to be condoning the exploitation of sheep, and trying to lighten the argument by comparing DIY to this seems facile. The Valley Vegan..............heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote: I think you are saying that you agree with farming sheep!This is a vegan site, and I really cannot imagine anyone else here not being somewhat incensed that you are arguing this point.Jo , "Oom

Yaaqub" <oomyaaqub wrote:>> [[You talk about cotton being used for food but think grazing of sheep for wool is what ??? ]]> > The point is that animals can graze hilly or marginal land that is NOT suitable for growing crops. I live in Western PA, which is exceedingly hilly. Dairying is a big here for that reason--people figure there's nothing else they can reasonably do with the land. Keeping sheep for wool, if there were more interest in it, would be a humane alternative compared to dairying. > > I would treat any animal I owned like I treat the pets I already have. That they can also do something useful doesn't mean I love them any less. My husband does some useful things around the house, too, as do I. Does that therefore prove that our relationship is mercenary?> Peter H

Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your free account today. Peter H

 

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[Guest guest]

[[You seem to be missing the point entirely, they are bred for profit full stop. ]]

 

Check out the magazine "Hobby Farms". Plenty of people raise a few sheep or other animals on that basis. The vast majority aren't really in it for a profit, certainly not as far as the IRS is concerned, but they sell a bit of wool (or alpaca fiber, etc.) in order to justify their rural lifestyle. Those are the only sort of people I would buy wool from, just as they are the only sort of people I would buy a rabbit from (or an equine, if I were in a position to have one.) Even people who raise show dogs, cats, horses or rabbits will tell you: if you are making money, you are doing something wrong. You do it for the love of the animals and the breed.

 

I hope you are not seriously advocating a world with NO domesticated animals. I don't think the human race could survive that--just in a spiritual sense, we need to have contact with animals.

No shows, I could deal with. But no animals at all?

 

 

[Guest guest]

I do not agree with man breeding animals full stop. Certainly dont agree using them for shows. rescuing animals from mans cruelty or suffering is another thing altogether. Man has no right to think he can use animals in my opinion, or treat them as a commodity. The Valley Vegan........... Oom Yaaqub <oomyaaqub wrote: [[You seem to be

missing the point entirely, they are bred for profit full stop. ]] Check out the magazine "Hobby Farms". Plenty of people raise a few sheep or other animals on that basis. The vast majority aren't really in it for a profit, certainly not as far as the IRS is concerned, but they sell a bit of wool (or alpaca fiber, etc.) in order to justify their rural lifestyle. Those are the only sort of people I would buy wool from, just as they are the only sort of people I would buy a rabbit from (or an equine, if I were in a position to have one.) Even people who raise show dogs, cats, horses or rabbits will tell you: if you are making money, you are doing something wrong. You do it for the love of the animals and the breed. I hope you are not seriously advocating a world with NO domesticated animals. I don't think the human race could survive that--just in a spiritual sense, we need to have contact with

animals. No shows, I could deal with. But no animals at all? Peter H

 

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[Guest guest]

Sheep do survive in the wild. In Wales they are left to roam the mountainsides, where there is appears to be very little shelter from the elements. They are rounded up every year for shearing, but the rest of the time they are not looked after. The sheep that are kept in fields are often seen to have foot-rot and cannot even stand on their front feet! This is all for meat or wool. I call that exploitation.

 

Jo

 

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Oom Yaaqub

Tuesday, May 15, 2007 9:14 PM

Re: Re: Denim 'best protection from sun'

 

 

To most people, a vegan is someone who consumes no meat, dairy or eggs. I know plenty of people who call themselves vegans but who use wool. The reason for not eating dairy and eggs is that they are normally only acquired by slaughter of the surplus males -- and of course in practice they are usually raised under appalling, cruel conditions, too. The dairy industry is tied to the veal industry, for instance. I insist that "farming sheep" is a different matter because it doesn't NECESSARILY imply any slaughter or cruelty. I would be happy to have my own sheep someday--I have always wanted one, just as a pet. The wool breeds absolutely HAVE to be sheared. I would purchase wool or other fibers from people who I KNOW are treating the animals well, which means personally visiting the farm and buying locally. Talking about the "exploitation" of sheep is surely a joke--they are a domesticated animal that cannot possibly survive in the wild, any more than you could just let your dog loose in the woods. If people stop using wool, domesticated sheep will cease to exist. And I think that would be very sad, as they are wonderful animals.

 

 

 

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peter VV

Monday, May 14, 2007 2:12 PM

Re: Re: Denim 'best protection from sun'

 

 

 

I agree with you Jo, realy does seem to be condoning the exploitation of sheep, and trying to lighten the argument by comparing DIY to this seems facile.

 

The Valley Vegan..............heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote:

 

 

I think you are saying that you agree with farming sheep!This is a vegan site, and I really cannot imagine anyone else here not being somewhat incensed that you are arguing this point.Jo , "Oom Yaaqub" <oomyaaqub wrote:>> [[You talk about cotton being used for food but think grazing of sheep for wool is what ??? ]]> > The point is that animals can graze hilly or marginal land that is NOT suitable for growing crops. I live in Western PA, which is exceedingly hilly. Dairying is a big here for that reason--people figure there's nothing else they can reasonably do with the land. Keeping sheep for wool, if there were more interest in it, would be a humane alternative compared to dairying. > > I would treat any animal I owned like I treat the pets I already have. That they can also do something useful doesn't mean I love them any less. My husband does some useful things around the house, too, as do I. Does that therefore prove that our relationship is mercenary?>

Peter H

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I don't see why a world with no domesticated animals would mean no contact between animals and humans. I get on really well with wild birds, and love to sit in parks and converse with them.

 

BB

Peter

On 15/05/07, Oom Yaaqub <oomyaaqub wrote:

 

 

 

[[You seem to be missing the point entirely, they are bred for profit full stop. ]]

 

Check out the magazine " Hobby Farms " . Plenty of people raise a few sheep or other animals on that basis. The vast majority aren't really in it for a profit, certainly not as far as the IRS is concerned, but they sell a bit of wool (or alpaca fiber, etc.) in order to justify their rural lifestyle. Those are the only sort of people I would buy wool from, just as they are the only sort of people I would buy a rabbit from (or an equine, if I were in a position to have one.) Even people who raise show dogs, cats, horses or rabbits will tell you: if you are making money, you are doing something wrong. You do it for the love of the animals and the breed.

 

I hope you are not seriously advocating a world with NO domesticated animals. I don't think the human race could survive that--just in a spiritual sense, we need to have contact with animals.

No shows, I could deal with. But no animals at all?

 

 

[Guest guest]

[[ I don't see why a world with no domesticated animals would mean no contact between animals and humans. I get on really well with wild birds, and love to sit in parks and converse with them.

 

BB

Peter]]

 

Where I live, there's a $300 fine just for feeding pigeons. We do have an abundance of wild turkeys and hawks, even within the city limits. I admit it's always a thrill to see them, but I don't think it would be quite enough for most people.

 

 

[Guest guest]

and, while i luv my furkids to pieces...

"domestication" seems rather greedy and one sided on our part

we make something that WE want....

we breed something that WE want...

sorta doesn't sit well with me...

Peter Kebbell May 16, 2007 4:10 AM Re: Re: Denim 'best protection from sun'

I don't see why a world with no domesticated animals would mean no contact between animals and humans. I get on really well with wild birds, and love to sit in parks and converse with them.

 

BB

Peter

There is power in a factory, power in the land

Power in the hands of a worker

But it all amounts to nothing if together we don't stand

There is power in a Union

Now the lessons of the past were all learned with workers' blood

The mistakes of the bosses we must pay for

From the cities and the farmlands to trenches full of mud

War has always been the bosses' way, sir