Firefighters disciplined for gay parade snub

[Guest guest]

taint nuthin new about my fellow citizens being pretty reactionary and theocratic...

alas....

peter VV Sep 8, 2006 1:28 PM Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gay parade snub

From what I can tell its nothing new with the church. More worrying is that some of the christian sects in America seem to be leading in this regard, and almost militant in their bible pushing especially with childrens education etc.

 

The Valley Vegan................

If George Bush said that the Earth was flat, the headline would read, "Views Differ on Shape of the Earth"

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

>Would that include BNP rallies, KKK meetings, IRA rallies etc.........?

 

Why would you compare political white supremacist groups who base their beliefs on hatred to homosexuals? That seems rather offensive to gays.

 

The real question should be " why are racist groups allowed to hold rallies " ?

 

Of course, the fire service are probably too busy putting out the fires that those organisations start to be spending time handing out leaflets too them.

 

Anyway, Peter - I'm intrigued as to what your actual angle is on this - do you have some issue with homosexuality or something?

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Yes it would - if they are legal groups. I don't think we have KKK over here though.

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

Friday, September 08, 2006 9:26 PM

Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gay parade snub

 

Would that include BNP rallies, KKK meetings, IRA rallies etc.........?

 

The Valley Vegan...........jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

Hi AnoukThat's what I think. I was surprised to hear that handing out leaflets waspart of their job, as I had assumed that they fought fires, attended roadaccidents etc. but if it is part of their job then they should hand them outat all events.Jo-"Anouk Sickler" Monday, September 04, 2006 7:48 PM Re: Firefighters disciplined for gay parade snub> my feeling is that a firefighter is a public duty job.>> Therefore, an individual persons opinion should not be taken into> account.>> If a person signs up for that kind of job, he/she should deal with the> consequences and duties or quit.> Their personalities should not come into place, they are like soldiers> doing a job.>> The bottom line is that it is illegal to discriminate. To not> distribute flyers to people of certain sexual orientation is illegal.> Anti-discrimination is protected by law.>>> It is ok, (although sad) for someone to have racist thoughts in their> head, because> no one can control another persons thoughts. There is hatred.> What is not ok is to act upon those thoughts.>> I probably have pre-concieved notions of X, Y or Z group, but knowing> that pre-concieved notions are usually wrong and hurt, I give everyone> a fair chance at being a human first.>> The laws are there to protect,> because people cannot mature enough(on their own) to not hate> because someone is different.>> -anouk>>>> , peter VV wrote:> >> > I`m sorry but I dissagree with the comparison for this particular> instance, although I do agree that these things tend to grow.> > Incidentally, my employers ( BT ) have made everyone take a half> hour diversity training course .......so now I know what a homosexual> is!......duh! talk about stating the bleedin obvious! Like as though> they`ve only recently existed!> >> > The Valley Vegan...............> >>>>>>>>> To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

End times ......

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

Friday, September 08, 2006 9:28 PM

Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gay parade snub

 

From what I can tell its nothing new with the church. More worrying is that some of the christian sects in America seem to be leading in this regard, and almost militant in their bible pushing especially with childrens education etc.

 

The Valley Vegan................jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

Hi Peter

 

Unfortunately the church seems to be taking a nasty stand against homosexuals nowadays.

 

It is true that it wasn't much spoken about when I was a kid - the first gay chap I knew was very outlandish (very brave) and was very much like Julian Clary when he was younger. He was really good fun to know.

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

Monday, September 04, 2006 8:21 PM

Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gay parade snub

 

We had a lesbian and gay mardi gras on the weekend in Cardiff, ( now an annual event ).When I was younger, no-one dared to be openly gay in the valleys for fear of their own safety. Its not so bad now, but old attitudes are hard to shake.

Look at this prat ( so called christian attitudes?)

Christian held over anti-gay leaflets

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sep 4 2006

 

 

 

 

 

Anna Hammond, South Wales Echo

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A christian protester has been arrested at Cardiff's Mardi Gras.

Stephen Green, director of Christian Voice, was handing out homophobic leaflets at the weekend festival when police swooped.

His was the only arrest at the annual gay and lesbian celebration, which attracted around 40,000 people.

He claims he distributed 1,000 leaflets before he was arrested.

He has been charged with using threatening, abusive or insulting words.

What a twat!

The Valley Vegan..............

Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote:

The queer word, I have been hearing since the nineties, where gay people, tired of being belittled and people calling them names...decided to own that word. If they own it, then the negative connotation is gone. To own a word is power.If they are using the word Queer in a positive, in a celebratory, in aproud way, then it hasn't got much hurt power does it?I do not have that many Gay friends, just two and they are both in newyork, so I only see them in the summer. I would like to make more friends with gay people because It is very important to me that my children are expose to gay people. I brought them to the gay pride march this past summer in nyc and they seemed to enjoy the costumes and the music. Inevitably, children will use the word gay in a slur at school. Iwant them to know better, because they will have had a different experience. If one of my little boys turned out to be gay, then I would like for him to know that he is loved the way he is. Do they have a Gay pride parade in wales? Or are they mostly in the closet like here in my town?-anouk , "jo" wrote:>> I suppose it would be. Luckily I never heard any rudeness aboutWelsh people :-)> > Jo> - > peter VV > > Saturday, September 02, 2006 4:23 PM> Re: Firefighters disciplined for gay parade snub> > > You mean its a bit like calling us Welsh Sheep sh***ers?> > The Valley Vegan............> > jo wrote:> It used to be an insult, just as nigger was an insult to blackpeople. Now though, homosexuals call themselves queer, and I haveheard black people call themselves nigger. > > Jo> - > peter VV > > Friday, September 01, 2006 8:33 PM> Re: Firefighters disciplined for gayparade snub> > > Yeah, corse I heard it, I just dont think it appropriate.I wasunder the impression that it was insulting to gays.> > P.S. its the Lesbian and gay mardi gras in Cardiff tomorrow.> > The Valley Vegan.............> > fraggle wrote:> gay..homosexual..etc> you've never heard the term queer before?> > > > > peter VV > Sep 1, 2006 12:06 PM > > Re: Firefighters disciplined for gayparade snub > > > "Queer"?> > > The Valley Vegan............> > Peter Kebbell wrote:> Hi Peter> > >I sort of get the impression that there must be few gayfiremen/women, or the ones that are> > keep it very quiet from their colleagues?...or am I besilly again?> > There are a few - a lot of queer people have left thefire service because of prejudice from their colleagues - I even knowone or two of them! Sadly it's just like the police - anythingslightly different from the "normal" (as in what society callsacceptable), and they tend to treat you as a waste of skin. > > BB> Peter> > > > > > Peter H > > Send instant messages to your online friendshttp://uk.messenger. > If George Bush said that the Earth was flat, the headline wouldread, "Views Differ on Shape of the> Earth"> > > > > Peter H > > >--------> Inbox full of spam? Get leading spam protection and 1GBstorage with All New Mail. > > > > > Peter H > > Send instant messages to your online friendshttp://uk.messenger.>To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

hi peter vv,

 

there are three genders.

 

men, women and gays.

 

all of which should be protected equaly from discrimination and harrasment

by law.

 

someday people will realized this.

 

If those firemen, had not wanted to distribute safety flyers at a

NOW (national organization for women) parade, because

they believe women should stay at home, then surely they would be

fired.

 

replace women with the word gay.

 

 

yes, police officers (not firefighters that I know of)

have had to attend all kinds of parades and rallies

including KKK ones. and they had bite their tongue, bite their lip

and do their job.

 

at the gay pride parade in nyc this past summer, there were some

cops minding the parade who looked like some tough brooklyn types

who did not necesarily looked opened minded about gays. (that was just

my perception)

 

but guess what? all they could do is smirk, when they thought no one

was looking.

 

that is all they can do, smirk. it's a job.

 

 

 

 

, " jo " <jo.heartwork wrote:

>

> Yes it would - if they are legal groups. I don't think we have KKK

over here though.

>

> Jo

> -

> peter VV

>

> Friday, September 08, 2006 9:26 PM

> Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gay

parade snub

>

>

> Would that include BNP rallies, KKK meetings, IRA rallies

etc.........?

>

> The Valley Vegan...........

>

> jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

> Hi Anouk

>

> That's what I think. I was surprised to hear that handing out

leaflets was

> part of their job, as I had assumed that they fought fires,

attended road

> accidents etc. but if it is part of their job then they should

hand them out

> at all events.

>

> Jo

 

>

[Guest guest]

I`m not convinced, if I was told I had to attend a KKK rally or BNP parade, and hand out leaflets I would refuse. I doubt that there would be any men who would refuse to give out leaflets at a womens rally? surely they were objecting to what they see as an unatural practice possibly? and in their insecurity felt that they could possibly be mistaken for supporting homosexuality? Is it now officialy recognised that there are three genders? does it make any difference if it is? The Valley Vegan..............45 today!Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote: hi peter vv,there are three genders. men, women and gays. all of which should be protected equaly from discrimination and harrasmentby law. someday people will realized this. If those

firemen, had not wanted to distribute safety flyers at a NOW (national organization for women) parade, becausethey believe women should stay at home, then surely they would be fired. replace women with the word gay. yes, police officers (not firefighters that I know of) have had to attend all kinds of parades and ralliesincluding KKK ones. and they had bite their tongue, bite their lipand do their job. at the gay pride parade in nyc this past summer, there were some cops minding the parade who looked like some tough brooklyn typeswho did not necesarily looked opened minded about gays. (that was justmy perception) but guess what? all they could do is smirk, when they thought no one was looking. that is all they can do, smirk. it's a job. , "jo" wrote:>> Yes it would - if they are legal groups. I don't think

we have KKKover here though. > > Jo> - > peter VV > > Friday, September 08, 2006 9:26 PM> Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gayparade snub> > > Would that include BNP rallies, KKK meetings, IRA ralliesetc.........?> > The Valley Vegan...........> > jo wrote:> Hi Anouk> > That's what I think. I was surprised to hear that handing outleaflets was> part of their job, as I had assumed that they fought fires,attended road> accidents etc. but if it is part of their job then they shouldhand them out> at all events.> > Jo> To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

If it is part of their job to hand out leaflets then it is not up to them to decide which functions to hand them out at. It is officially recognised that there are homosexuals. It is not illegal now - homosexuals have not been sent to prison for a long time. If your job entails something you feel strongly against then you must give up the job and find a job that you can agree with. The leaflets presumably were giving out advice on how to avoid or deal with fires. Why would they want to exclude homosexuals from receiving this advice.

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

Saturday, September 09, 2006 8:44 PM

Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gay parade snub

 

I`m not convinced, if I was told I had to attend a KKK rally or BNP parade, and hand out leaflets I would refuse.

I doubt that there would be any men who would refuse to give out leaflets at a womens rally? surely they were objecting to what they see as an unatural practice possibly? and in their insecurity felt that they could possibly be mistaken for supporting homosexuality?

Is it now officialy recognised that there are three genders? does it make any difference if it is?

 

The Valley Vegan..............45 today!Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote:

hi peter vv,there are three genders. men, women and gays. all of which should be protected equaly from discrimination and harrasmentby law. someday people will realized this. If those firemen, had not wanted to distribute safety flyers at a NOW (national organization for women) parade, becausethey believe women should stay at home, then surely they would be fired. replace women with the word gay. yes, police officers (not firefighters that I know of) have had to attend all kinds of parades and ralliesincluding KKK ones. and they had bite their tongue, bite their lipand do their job. at the gay pride parade in nyc this past summer, there were some cops minding the parade who looked like some tough brooklyn typeswho did not necesarily looked opened minded about gays. (that was justmy perception) but guess what? all they could do is smirk, when they thought no one was looking. that is all they can do, smirk. it's a job. , "jo" wrote:>> Yes it would - if they are legal groups. I don't think we have KKKover here though. > > Jo> - > peter VV > > Friday, September 08, 2006 9:26 PM> Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gayparade snub> > > Would that include BNP rallies, KKK meetings, IRA ralliesetc.........?> > The Valley Vegan...........> > jo wrote:> Hi Anouk> > That's what I think. I was surprised to hear that handing outleaflets was> part of their job, as I had assumed that they fought fires,attended road> accidents etc. but if it is part of their job then they shouldhand them out> at all events.> > Jo> To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

We have the BNP instead, another mesogonistsic bunch of narrow minded bigots. The Valley Vegan...............jo <jo.heartwork wrote: Yes it would - if they are legal groups. I don't think we have KKK over here though. Jo - peter VV

Friday, September 08, 2006 9:26 PM Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gay parade snub Would that include BNP rallies, KKK meetings, IRA rallies etc.........? The Valley Vegan...........jo <jo.heartwork wrote: Hi AnoukThat's what I think. I was surprised to hear that handing out leaflets waspart of their job, as I had assumed that they fought fires, attended roadaccidents etc. but if it is part of their job then they should hand them outat all

events.Jo-"Anouk Sickler" Monday, September 04, 2006 7:48 PM Re: Firefighters disciplined for gay parade snub> my feeling is that a firefighter is a public duty job.>> Therefore, an individual persons opinion should not be taken into> account.>> If a person signs up for that kind of job, he/she should deal with the> consequences and duties or quit.> Their personalities should not come into place, they are like soldiers> doing a job.>> The bottom line is that it is illegal to discriminate. To not> distribute flyers to people of certain sexual orientation is illegal.> Anti-discrimination is protected by law.>>> It is ok, (although sad) for someone to have racist thoughts in their> head, because> no

one can control another persons thoughts. There is hatred.> What is not ok is to act upon those thoughts.>> I probably have pre-concieved notions of X, Y or Z group, but knowing> that pre-concieved notions are usually wrong and hurt, I give everyone> a fair chance at being a human first.>> The laws are there to protect,> because people cannot mature enough(on their own) to not hate> because someone is different.>> -anouk>>>> , peter VV wrote:> >> > I`m sorry but I dissagree with the comparison for this particular> instance, although I do agree that these things tend to grow.> > Incidentally, my employers ( BT ) have made everyone take a half> hour diversity training course .......so now I know what a homosexual> is!......duh! talk about stating the bleedin obvious! Like as

though> they`ve only recently existed!> >> > The Valley Vegan...............> >>>>>>>>> To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

I never said they should exclude homosexuals from receiving advice, what I was saying was that their own prejudices got in the way and that is why they refused to attend the rally because they thought that they may have been seen as supporting the gay cause/or had the mickey taken out of them as they were wearing their uniforms, and didnt have the intelligence to join in the banter? I think that they should have made their feelings known to their boss in advance and ask to be excused rather than ending up leaving it until the day and then being in the position they were in.Not that I am excusing them in any way for their intollerances, but after all we all object to something, and I think its best out in the open - better the devil you know etc.......... I dunno....... The Valley Vegan..............jo <jo.heartwork wrote: If it is part of their job to hand out leaflets then it is not up to them to decide which functions to hand them out at. It is officially recognised that there are homosexuals. It is not illegal now - homosexuals have not been sent to prison for a long time. If your job entails something you feel strongly against then you must give up the job and find a job that you can agree with. The leaflets presumably were giving out advice on how to avoid or deal with fires. Why would they want to exclude homosexuals from receiving this advice. Jo -----

Original Message ----- peter VV Saturday, September 09, 2006 8:44 PM Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gay parade snub I`m not convinced, if I was told I had to attend a KKK rally or BNP parade, and hand out leaflets I would refuse. I doubt that there would be any men who would refuse to give out leaflets at a womens rally? surely they were objecting to what they see as an unatural practice possibly? and in their insecurity felt that they could possibly be mistaken for supporting homosexuality? Is it now officialy recognised that there are three genders? does it make any difference if it is? The Valley Vegan..............45 today!Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote: hi peter vv,there are three genders. men, women and gays. all of which should be protected equaly from discrimination and harrasmentby law. someday people will realized this. If those firemen, had not wanted to distribute safety flyers at a NOW (national organization for women) parade, becausethey believe women should stay at home, then surely they would be fired. replace women with the word gay. yes, police officers (not firefighters that I know of) have had to attend all kinds of parades and ralliesincluding KKK ones. and they had bite

their tongue, bite their lipand do their job. at the gay pride parade in nyc this past summer, there were some cops minding the parade who looked like some tough brooklyn typeswho did not necesarily looked opened minded about gays. (that was justmy perception) but guess what? all they could do is smirk, when they thought no one was looking. that is all they can do, smirk. it's a job. , "jo" wrote:>> Yes it would - if they are legal groups. I don't think we have KKKover here though. > > Jo> - > peter VV > > Friday, September 08, 2006 9:26 PM> Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gayparade snub> > > Would that include BNP rallies, KKK meetings, IRA ralliesetc.........?>

> The Valley Vegan...........> > jo wrote:> Hi Anouk> > That's what I think. I was surprised to hear that handing outleaflets was> part of their job, as I had assumed that they fought fires,attended road> accidents etc. but if it is part of their job then they shouldhand them out> at all events.> > Jo> To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

I was only comparing racism with sexism, both isms and bigotry is bigotry. As to my personal beliefs on gays, I have few, they are just people who have a different lifestyle to me. I find nothing offensive or otherwise by the gay community.(I dont personally know any gay people so my interaction is nil ). I am not a fan of persecution of any one or thing. I will be totally honest with you here and say that I am a bit confused by its natural/physiological origins, I mean if the entire human race was gay, how would we continue the species?, but on the other hand I accept that it is a lifestyle and a life choice.I am old fasioned and do not agree with single sex couples adopting babies and bringing up children, as to me a baby/child needs both masculine and femenine influences for a well balanced upbringing. Sorry if anyone finds that offensive, I dont mean to be , but its my honest ( possibly misguided ) opinion. Ce serra,

serra Live and let live etc The Valley Vegan............. Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter >Would that include BNP rallies, KKK meetings, IRA rallies etc.........? Why would you compare political white supremacist groups who base their beliefs on hatred to homosexuals? That seems rather offensive to gays. The real question should be "why are racist groups allowed to hold rallies"? Of course, the fire service are probably too busy putting out the fires that those organisations start to be spending time handing out leaflets too them. Anyway, Peter - I'm intrigued as to what your actual angle is on this - do you have

some issue with homosexuality or something? BB Peter Peter H

 

Try the all-new Mail . "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal

[Guest guest]

What does theocratic mean? The Valley Vegan..............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: taint nuthin new about my fellow citizens being pretty reactionary and theocratic... alas.... peter VV Sep 8, 2006 1:28 PM Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gay parade snub From what I can tell its nothing new with the church. More worrying is that some of the christian sects in America seem to be leading in this regard, and almost militant in their bible pushing

especially with childrens education etc. The Valley Vegan................ If George Bush said that the Earth was flat, the headline would read, "Views Differ on Shape of the Earth"Peter H

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

>I am old fasioned and do not agree with single sex couples adopting babies and bringing up children, as to me a baby/child needs both masculine and femenine

> influences for a well balanced upbringing. Sorry if anyone finds that offensive, I dont mean to be , but its my honest ( possibly misguided ) opinion.

 

Well, I just have to ask.... what do you consider to me "masculine" and "feminine" influences? And why do you think that those influences can be provided by people based purely on the genitalia they happen to have been born with?

 

Just taking the "traditional" view of what masculine and feminine are, I'm a darned sight more feminine than a lot of women I know.

 

FWIW, I only know one person who was brought up by a lesbian couple, and she's turned out a lot more sensible and well rounded than a heck of a lot of people I know who've been brought up by a "traditional" couple.

 

Just thought of another question as well.... if you feel strongly that children need two parents, one of each gender, then presumably you feel that all single parents should give their children up for adoption?

 

Personally, I think that having loving parents is far more important than what genitalia those parents happen to have.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Look, you are obviously trying to make something of my opinion, so I will take the time to answer. I dont think its a question of genetalia, more of traits/natural instincts. Your average, ( dare I use the term ), bloke and his masculine traits are different to your average womens traits. Women are different and have the hormones to prove it! , seriously though, biologically there is a difference that goes beyond their physical apprearance.I just dont think it ( single sex parents ) right. You quote a succesful upbringing with a lesbian couple, I am glad it has worked out. Do you think the child is influenced into being gay? There have been reports in the press a while back where a lesbian couple abused / neglected their child, there are good and bad parents full stop. Single parent families always make me think that the child is missing out, and only has a 50% view of life.I dont think their children should be taken off them, no.

You are possibly trying to put words into my mouth? Look you asked me for my opinion, I never said you would like it, nor did I say I was right. As I said I know no gay people and have had no interaction with any. I can only tell it like I see it. I dont want to offend anyone. Kinda heavy for my born day dont you think? The Valley Vegan............Peter <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter >I am old fasioned and do not agree with single sex couples adopting babies and bringing up children, as to me a baby/child needs both masculine and femenine > influences for a well

balanced upbringing. Sorry if anyone finds that offensive, I dont mean to be , but its my honest ( possibly misguided ) opinion. Well, I just have to ask.... what do you consider to me "masculine" and "feminine" influences? And why do you think that those influences can be provided by people based purely on the genitalia they happen to have been born with? Just taking the "traditional" view of what masculine and feminine are, I'm a darned sight more feminine than a lot of women I know. FWIW, I only know one person who was brought up by a lesbian couple, and she's turned out a lot more sensible and well rounded than a heck of a lot of people I know who've been brought up by a "traditional" couple. Just thought of another question as well.... if you feel strongly that children need two parents, one of each gender, then presumably you feel that all single parents should give their children up for adoption? Personally, I think that having loving parents is far more important than what genitalia those parents happen to have. BB Peter Peter H

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

I do agree that it would have been best to ask to be excused from handing out the leaflets, if that is the way they felt. I just don't understand why they did feel that way.

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

Saturday, September 09, 2006 9:14 PM

Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gay parade snub

 

I never said they should exclude homosexuals from receiving advice, what I was saying was that their own prejudices got in the way and that is why they refused to attend the rally because they thought that they may have been seen as supporting the gay cause/or had the mickey taken out of them as they were wearing their uniforms, and didnt have the intelligence to join in the banter?

I think that they should have made their feelings known to their boss in advance and ask to be excused rather than ending up leaving it until the day and then being in the position they were in.Not that I am excusing them in any way for their intollerances, but after all we all object to something, and I think its best out in the open - better the devil you know etc..........

I dunno.......

 

The Valley Vegan..............jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

If it is part of their job to hand out leaflets then it is not up to them to decide which functions to hand them out at. It is officially recognised that there are homosexuals. It is not illegal now - homosexuals have not been sent to prison for a long time. If your job entails something you feel strongly against then you must give up the job and find a job that you can agree with. The leaflets presumably were giving out advice on how to avoid or deal with fires. Why would they want to exclude homosexuals from receiving this advice.

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

Saturday, September 09, 2006 8:44 PM

Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gay parade snub

 

I`m not convinced, if I was told I had to attend a KKK rally or BNP parade, and hand out leaflets I would refuse.

I doubt that there would be any men who would refuse to give out leaflets at a womens rally? surely they were objecting to what they see as an unatural practice possibly? and in their insecurity felt that they could possibly be mistaken for supporting homosexuality?

Is it now officialy recognised that there are three genders? does it make any difference if it is?

 

The Valley Vegan..............45 today!Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote:

hi peter vv,there are three genders. men, women and gays. all of which should be protected equaly from discrimination and harrasmentby law. someday people will realized this. If those firemen, had not wanted to distribute safety flyers at a NOW (national organization for women) parade, becausethey believe women should stay at home, then surely they would be fired. replace women with the word gay. yes, police officers (not firefighters that I know of) have had to attend all kinds of parades and ralliesincluding KKK ones. and they had bite their tongue, bite their lipand do their job. at the gay pride parade in nyc this past summer, there were some cops minding the parade who looked like some tough brooklyn typeswho did not necesarily looked opened minded about gays. (that was justmy perception) but guess what? all they could do is smirk, when they thought no one was looking. that is all they can do, smirk. it's a job. , "jo" wrote:>> Yes it would - if they are legal groups. I don't think we have KKKover here though. > > Jo> - > peter VV > > Friday, September 08, 2006 9:26 PM> Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gayparade snub> > > Would that include BNP rallies, KKK meetings, IRA ralliesetc.........?> > The Valley Vegan...........> > jo wrote:> Hi Anouk> > That's what I think. I was surprised to hear that handing outleaflets was> part of their job, as I had assumed that they fought fires,attended road> accidents etc. but if it is part of their job then they shouldhand them out> at all events.> > Jo> To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter/Peter

 

I don't have a lot of experience of people bought up by only one parent. Colin's mum divorced his dad when Colin was 5, and raised Colin and his brothers as a single mum. Colin is a kind, gentle, loving, caring and well rounded person. I don't think having a dad present would have made him a better person - maybe it would have made him a worse person.

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

Saturday, September 09, 2006 10:13 PM

Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gay parade snub

 

Look, you are obviously trying to make something of my opinion, so I will take the time to answer.

I dont think its a question of genetalia, more of traits/natural instincts. Your average, ( dare I use the term ), bloke and his masculine traits are different to your average womens traits. Women are different and have the hormones to prove it! , seriously though, biologically there is a difference that goes beyond their physical apprearance.I just dont think it ( single sex parents ) right. You quote a succesful upbringing with a lesbian couple, I am glad it has worked out. Do you think the child is influenced into being gay? There have been reports in the press a while back where a lesbian couple abused / neglected their child, there are good and bad parents full stop. Single parent families always make me think that the child is missing out, and only has a 50% view of life.I dont think their children should be taken off them, no. You are possibly trying to put words into my mouth?

Look you asked me for my opinion, I never said you would like it, nor did I say I was right. As I said I know no gay people and have had no interaction with any.

I can only tell it like I see it. I dont want to offend anyone.

Kinda heavy for my born day dont you think?

The Valley Vegan............Peter <metalscarab wrote:

 

Hi Peter

 

>I am old fasioned and do not agree with single sex couples adopting babies and bringing up children, as to me a baby/child needs both masculine and femenine

> influences for a well balanced upbringing. Sorry if anyone finds that offensive, I dont mean to be , but its my honest ( possibly misguided ) opinion.

 

Well, I just have to ask.... what do you consider to me "masculine" and "feminine" influences? And why do you think that those influences can be provided by people based purely on the genitalia they happen to have been born with?

 

Just taking the "traditional" view of what masculine and feminine are, I'm a darned sight more feminine than a lot of women I know.

 

FWIW, I only know one person who was brought up by a lesbian couple, and she's turned out a lot more sensible and well rounded than a heck of a lot of people I know who've been brought up by a "traditional" couple.

 

Just thought of another question as well.... if you feel strongly that children need two parents, one of each gender, then presumably you feel that all single parents should give their children up for adoption?

 

Personally, I think that having loving parents is far more important than what genitalia those parents happen to have.

 

BB

Peter

Peter H

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I hear what you are saying, and your opinions are as valid as anyones. i`m glad you two are happy, its the main thing. The Valley Vegan..................jo <jo.heartwork wrote: Hi Peter/Peter I don't have a lot of experience of people bought up by only one parent. Colin's mum divorced his dad when Colin was 5, and raised Colin and his brothers as a single mum. Colin is a kind, gentle, loving, caring and well rounded person. I don't think having a dad present would have made him a better person - maybe it would have made him a worse person. Jo - peter VV Saturday, September 09, 2006 10:13 PM Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gay parade snub Look, you are obviously trying to make something of my opinion, so I will take the time to answer. I dont think its a question of genetalia, more of

traits/natural instincts. Your average, ( dare I use the term ), bloke and his masculine traits are different to your average womens traits. Women are different and have the hormones to prove it! , seriously though, biologically there is a difference that goes beyond their physical apprearance.I just dont think it ( single sex parents ) right. You quote a succesful upbringing with a lesbian couple, I am glad it has worked out. Do you think the child is influenced into being gay? There have been reports in the press a while back where a lesbian couple abused / neglected their child, there are good and bad parents full stop. Single parent families always make me think that the child is missing out, and only has a 50% view of life.I dont think their children should be taken off them, no. You are possibly trying to put words into my mouth? Look you asked me for my opinion, I never said you would like it, nor did I say I was right. As I said

I know no gay people and have had no interaction with any. I can only tell it like I see it. I dont want to offend anyone. Kinda heavy for my born day dont you think? The Valley Vegan............Peter <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter >I am old fasioned and do not agree with single sex couples adopting babies and bringing up children, as to me a baby/child needs both masculine and femenine > influences for a well balanced upbringing. Sorry if anyone finds that offensive, I dont mean to be , but its my honest ( possibly misguided ) opinion. Well, I just have to ask.... what do you consider to me "masculine" and "feminine" influences? And why do you think that those influences can be provided by people based purely on the genitalia they happen to have been born with? Just taking the "traditional" view of what masculine and feminine are, I'm a darned sight more feminine than a lot of women I know. FWIW, I only know one person who was brought up by a lesbian couple, and she's turned out a lot more sensible and well rounded than a heck of a lot of people I know who've been brought up by a "traditional" couple. Just thought of another question as well.... if you feel strongly that children need two parents, one

of each gender, then presumably you feel that all single parents should give their children up for adoption? Personally, I think that having loving parents is far more important than what genitalia those parents happen to have. BB Peter Peter H Now you can scan emails quickly with a reading

pane. Get the new Mail. Peter H

 

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As i believe I have said in the past, some minds are closed, and you wont open them with a crowbar. Maybe they have little or no experiance of gay people like me, maybe they are easily influenced by homophobes - unlike me. I just think the whole horrible incident could have been avoided/handled better. The Valley Vegan..............jo <jo.heartwork wrote: Hi Peter I do agree that it would have been best to ask to be excused from handing out the leaflets, if that is the way they felt. I just don't understand why they did feel that way. Jo - peter VV Saturday, September 09, 2006 9:14 PM Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gay parade snub I never said they should exclude homosexuals from receiving advice, what I was saying was that their own prejudices got in the way and that is why they refused to attend the rally because they thought that

they may have been seen as supporting the gay cause/or had the mickey taken out of them as they were wearing their uniforms, and didnt have the intelligence to join in the banter? I think that they should have made their feelings known to their boss in advance and ask to be excused rather than ending up leaving it until the day and then being in the position they were in.Not that I am excusing them in any way for their intollerances, but after all we all object to something, and I think its best out in the open - better the devil you know etc.......... I dunno....... The Valley Vegan..............jo <jo.heartwork wrote: If it is part of their job to hand out leaflets then it

is not up to them to decide which functions to hand them out at. It is officially recognised that there are homosexuals. It is not illegal now - homosexuals have not been sent to prison for a long time. If your job entails something you feel strongly against then you must give up the job and find a job that you can agree with. The leaflets presumably were giving out advice on how to avoid or deal with fires. Why would they want to exclude homosexuals from receiving this advice. Jo - peter VV Saturday, September 09, 2006 8:44 PM Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gay parade snub I`m not convinced, if I was told I had to attend a KKK rally or BNP parade, and hand out leaflets I would refuse. I doubt that there would be any men who would refuse to give out leaflets at a womens rally? surely they were objecting to what they see as an unatural practice possibly? and in their insecurity felt that they could possibly be mistaken for supporting homosexuality? Is it now officialy recognised that there are three genders? does it make any difference if it is? The Valley Vegan..............45 today!Anouk Sickler

<zurumato wrote: hi peter vv,there are three genders. men, women and gays. all of which should be protected equaly from discrimination and harrasmentby law. someday people will realized this. If those firemen, had not wanted to distribute safety flyers at a NOW (national organization for women) parade, becausethey believe women should stay at home, then surely they would be fired. replace women with the word gay. yes, police officers (not firefighters that I know of) have had to attend all kinds of parades and ralliesincluding KKK ones. and they had bite their tongue, bite their lipand do their job. at the gay pride parade in nyc this past summer, there were some cops minding the parade who looked like some tough brooklyn typeswho did

not necesarily looked opened minded about gays. (that was justmy perception) but guess what? all they could do is smirk, when they thought no one was looking. that is all they can do, smirk. it's a job. , "jo" wrote:>> Yes it would - if they are legal groups. I don't think we have KKKover here though. > > Jo> - > peter VV > > Friday, September 08, 2006 9:26 PM> Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gayparade snub> > > Would that include BNP rallies, KKK meetings, IRA ralliesetc.........?> > The Valley Vegan...........> > jo wrote:> Hi Anouk> > That's what I think. I was surprised to hear that handing outleaflets was>

part of their job, as I had assumed that they fought fires,attended road> accidents etc. but if it is part of their job then they shouldhand them out> at all events.> > Jo> To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

> I dont think its a question of genetalia, more of traits/natural instincts. Your average, ( dare I use the term ), bloke and his masculine traits are different to your

> average womens traits. Women are different and have the hormones to prove it! , seriously though, biologically there is a difference that goes beyond their

> physical apprearance.

 

Not really. Of course there are physical and hormonal differences - but the idea that there is a basic difference in character based solely on gender is complete nonsense, and is the very argument that was used in the first part of the twentieth century for refusing to give women the vote, and later to give women lower pay than men for doing the same jobs. The concept that women and men are fundamentally "better" at different roles is one that is really quite offensive to both genders, and is, thankfully, gradually becoming outdated (although sadly your views are not yet entirely a thing of the past).

 

>I just dont think it ( single sex parents ) right. You quote a succesful upbringing with a lesbian couple, I am glad it has worked out. Do you think the child is

> influenced into being gay?

 

Considering she's straight, I would say not. However, the above statement does show quite a lot about your attitude towards homosexuality, because you clearly think that being homosexual is something which people should be disuaded from, and therefore you must think that it is somehow a less worthwhile way of life than being straight. I know that you're going to accuse me of putting words into your mouth here, but I would like to hear how you would explain the above "concern" if you did not think that there was anything wrong with people being gay.

 

I would say that her upbringing has influenced her into being much more tolerant of people who come from different backgrounds to herself, and means that she is far less judgemental when it comes to how people who differ from her should be treated....

 

> There have been reports in the press a while back where a lesbian couple abused / neglected their child, there are good and bad parents full stop.

 

Exactly my point - there are good and bad parents across the spectrum. Would you say that vegans should not be allowed to adopt because there's a danger that they will give their children a perspective on diet which is not shared by the vast majority? They might end up encouraging their children into being vegan - wouldn't that be a terrible thing.

 

> Single parent families always make me think that the child is missing out, and only has a 50% view of life.I dont think their children should be taken off them, no.

> You are possibly trying to put words into my mouth?

 

Nope - I'm trying to find out why it is that you think homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to bring up children, and pointing out another scenario where your original statment was equally valid. Have you ever asked anyone who was brought up by a single parent whether they felt they had "only half a view of life"? I'm sure you must know some people, considering that in your childhood, most young adults came from a generation where numerous fathers had been killed in the war....

 

>Look you asked me for my opinion, I never said you would like it, nor did I say I was right. As I said I know no gay people and have had no interaction with any.

 

So, I have to ask... if you know no-one gay, how on earth do you feel qualified to judge the abilities of "gay people" in bringing up children (and that'd just forgetting the fact that all people, gay or not, are completely different from one another anyway!!!!!)

 

>Kinda heavy for my born day dont you think?

 

What, I'm supposed to just ignore prejudice 'cos it happens to be your birthday?

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter, You asked for my views, and I didnt ask for you to accept them or argue a point. They are just my views.I make no excuses for having an opinion. I come from a very traditional community , my mother ran the house and brought up the kids and my father worked.None of my friends came from a single parent family, I do however work with a girl who is a single parent and has bad experience with men , so probably not a good example. Whether you like it or not, in nature the female of the species give birth, males do not, and they have the instincts/hormones that go with that. From birth, their emotional ties with their babies are stronger than the male. Males cannot give birth, their instincts are throughout evolution to find a mate and be the provider to ensure the species continues and the stongest survive as with any male of any species.How can that statement be offensive or outdated or even disputed? You continue to put words into my mouth which I find offensive and says a lot about you: "because you clearly think that being homosexual is something which people should be disuaded from, and therefore you must think that it is somehow a less worthwhile way of life than being straight." I clearly stated on more than one occaision that I have very few views on the matter, as I have not had any interraction with any gay people so cannot make any comments on lifestyle from observation, apart from my lack of understanding of the physical nature of homosexuality. A man can love another man if he likes, a man can love a stone if he likes what business is it of mine or yours for that matter? unless he did something to offend us or intrude on our way of life. " A less worthwhile way of life"? No I dont think that , I still maintain that two of the same sex cannot create new life, but apart from that, nothing different is there? I

never said I was qualified to judge the abilities of gay people to bring up kids, just that they would be single sex influenced rather than both sex influenced. Not nice to be called prejudiced either. But until I know more on the subject ( as with any subject ) my views will probably remain . As for your sensationalisty comment on vegans not being alowed to adopt? cmon you know better than that. My comment was there are good and bad parents. You chose to take it out of context. I didnt wish to be controversial or offend anyone, but what the hay, we are all adults here, take it or leave it. If you cant leave it and are offended , I`m sorry. You ask for my opinion and then continue to argue, lets just have 1 more comment each and close the topic shall we? Thanks for trying to put me right. The Valley Vegan................still

decorating!Peter <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter > I dont think its a question of genetalia, more of traits/natural instincts. Your average, ( dare I use the term ), bloke and his masculine traits are different to your > average womens traits. Women are different and have the hormones to prove it! , seriously though, biologically there is a difference that goes beyond their > physical apprearance. Not really. Of course there are physical and hormonal differences - but the idea that there is a basic difference in character based solely on gender is complete

nonsense, and is the very argument that was used in the first part of the twentieth century for refusing to give women the vote, and later to give women lower pay than men for doing the same jobs. The concept that women and men are fundamentally "better" at different roles is one that is really quite offensive to both genders, and is, thankfully, gradually becoming outdated (although sadly your views are not yet entirely a thing of the past). >I just dont think it ( single sex parents ) right. You quote a succesful upbringing with a lesbian couple, I am glad it has worked out. Do you think the child is > influenced into being gay? Considering she's straight, I would say not. However, the above statement does show quite a lot about your attitude towards homosexuality, because you clearly think that being homosexual is

something which people should be disuaded from, and therefore you must think that it is somehow a less worthwhile way of life than being straight. I know that you're going to accuse me of putting words into your mouth here, but I would like to hear how you would explain the above "concern" if you did not think that there was anything wrong with people being gay. I would say that her upbringing has influenced her into being much more tolerant of people who come from different backgrounds to herself, and means that she is far less judgemental when it comes to how people who differ from her should be treated.... > There have been reports in the press a while back where a lesbian couple abused / neglected their child, there are good and bad parents full stop. Exactly my point - there are good and bad parents across the spectrum. Would you say that vegans should not be allowed to adopt because there's a danger that they will give their children a perspective on diet which is not shared by the vast majority? They might end up encouraging their children into being vegan - wouldn't that be a terrible thing. > Single parent families always make me think that the child is missing out, and only has a 50% view of life.I dont think their children should be taken off them, no. > You are possibly trying to put words into my mouth? Nope - I'm trying to find out why it is that you think homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to bring up children, and pointing out another scenario where your original

statment was equally valid. Have you ever asked anyone who was brought up by a single parent whether they felt they had "only half a view of life"? I'm sure you must know some people, considering that in your childhood, most young adults came from a generation where numerous fathers had been killed in the war.... >Look you asked me for my opinion, I never said you would like it, nor did I say I was right. As I said I know no gay people and have had no interaction with any. So, I have to ask... if you know no-one gay, how on earth do you feel qualified to judge the abilities of "gay people" in bringing up children (and that'd just forgetting the fact that all people, gay or not, are completely different from one another anyway!!!!!) >Kinda heavy for my born day dont you think? What, I'm supposed to just ignore prejudice 'cos it happens to be your birthday? BB Peter Peter H

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

>Whether you like it or not, in nature the female of the species give birth, males do not, and they have the instincts/hormones that go with that. From birth, their

> emotional ties with their babies are stronger than the male. Males cannot give birth, their instincts are throughout evolution to find a mate and be the provider to

> ensure the species continues and the stongest survive as with any male of any species.How can that statement be offensive or outdated or even disputed?

 

The statement that females give birth and males do not is a clear fact (with the exception of seahorses), which I do not dispute. The inferences you make regarding emotional ties, finding mates and being providers is your opinion, it is not fact, and can be and *has* been disputed - that is the part that is outdated.

 

>You continue to put words into my mouth which I find offensive and says a lot about you:

>"because you clearly think that being homosexual is something which people should be disuaded from, and therefore you must think that it is somehow a less

> worthwhile way of life than being straight."

 

So, how else do you explain the statement you made regarding your "concern" that people may be encouraged to be homosexual. If you didn't perceive homosexuality as something "secondary" to heterosexuality, why would you be "concerned" at that? Please enlighten me as to how else your statement could be interpreted?

 

>As for your sensationalisty comment on vegans not being alowed to adopt? cmon you know better than that. My comment was there are good and bad parents.

 

Your initial comment was, and I quote, "homosexual couples should not be allowed to adopt children"... so my statement was a straight forward analogy, no more or less "sensational" than your statement.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

government run by religion....

theocracy

peter VV Sep 9, 2006 1:34 PM Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gay parade snub

What does theocratic mean?

 

The Valley Vegan..............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

 

taint nuthin new about my fellow citizens being pretty reactionary and theocratic...

alas....

peter VV Sep 8, 2006 1:28 PM Re: Re: Firefighters disciplined for gay parade snub

From what I can tell its nothing new with the church. More worrying is that some of the christian sects in America seem to be leading in this regard, and almost militant in their bible pushing especially with childrens education etc.

 

The Valley Vegan................ If George Bush said that the Earth was flat, the headline would read, "Views Differ on Shape of the Earth"

Peter H

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

Very well put on all accounts!

 

My father raised me on his own since I was 5. I did have some small

female influence from aunts and grandma's, but my main influence was

my father. I think I turned out pretty ok.

 

I could go on and elaborate on what you've said, but I think you

summed it up perfectly.

 

BB

Nikki

 

 

, " Peter " <metalscarab wrote:

>

> Hi Peter

>

> >I am old fasioned and do not agree with single sex couples adopting

babies and bringing up children, as to me a baby/child needs both

masculine and femenine

> > influences for a well balanced upbringing. Sorry if anyone finds

that offensive, I dont mean to be , but its my honest ( possibly

misguided ) opinion.

>

> Well, I just have to ask.... what do you consider to me " masculine "

and " feminine " influences? And why do you think that those influences

can be provided by people based purely on the genitalia they happen to

have been born with?

>

> Just taking the " traditional " view of what masculine and feminine

are, I'm a darned sight more feminine than a lot of women I know.

>

> FWIW, I only know one person who was brought up by a lesbian couple,

and she's turned out a lot more sensible and well rounded than a heck

of a lot of people I know who've been brought up by a " traditional "

couple.

>

> Just thought of another question as well.... if you feel strongly

that children need two parents, one of each gender, then presumably

you feel that all single parents should give their children up for

adoption?

>

> Personally, I think that having loving parents is far more important

than what genitalia those parents happen to have.

>

> BB

> Peter

>

[Guest guest]

I was raised by my mom.

 

I was so glad that my dad was not living with us, and that he was

not part of my life.

 

he was an alcoholic. Had he lived with us, I would've had a miserable

childhood.

 

I had a lot of loving aunts.

my uncle, was a positive male influence.

 

on the contrary,

my husband's parents did not get along

and would yell everyday,

 

they stayed together " for the sake of the children "

 

and it was detrimental for him. years and years of misery of trying to

work it out.

 

I had a tres happy childhood with just one parent.

 

all the energy that she would've spent on my

alcoholic father, she gave to me

 

 

 

 

, " earthstrm " <earthstorm wrote:

>

> Hi Peter

>

> Very well put on all accounts!

>

> My father raised me on his own since I was 5. I did have some small

> female influence from aunts and grandma's, but my main influence was

> my father. I think I turned out pretty ok.

>

> I could go on and elaborate on what you've said, but I think you

> summed it up perfectly.

>

> BB

> Nikki

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Anouk

 

I'm glad to hear this. It is best to have happy parents whether or not

there are two together.

 

Jo

 

> I had a tres happy childhood with just one parent.

>

> all the energy that she would've spent on my

> alcoholic father, she gave to me

[Guest guest]

Hi Anouk

 

I can relate. I am grateful for all that happened and even the things

I went through. They made me who I am today and I am proud of that

person.

 

I do not believe in staying together for the children. It can most

often make their lives worse.

 

Nikki

 

 

, " Anouk Sickler " <zurumato wrote:

>

>

> I was raised by my mom.

>

> I was so glad that my dad was not living with us, and that he was

> not part of my life.

>

> he was an alcoholic. Had he lived with us, I would've had a miserable

> childhood.

>

> I had a lot of loving aunts.

> my uncle, was a positive male influence.

>

> on the contrary,

> my husband's parents did not get along

> and would yell everyday,

>

> they stayed together " for the sake of the children "

>

> and it was detrimental for him. years and years of misery of trying to

> work it out.

>

> I had a tres happy childhood with just one parent.

>

> all the energy that she would've spent on my

> alcoholic father, she gave to me

>