Heathens

August 22, 2005

Cynthia,

I smiled as I read this. Not that it happened, but at your question. This teacher thought she was helping you and never would have considered her question as unwanted, unwelcome, or inappropriate. Yet, you are right, had the roles been reversed, you would have been fired, but I expect she was not. My first question, is did you get let go/fired? My second question is where do you live? I wish you well.

Blessings,

DragonspirithealerCynthia Gadarian <cgadarian wrote:

I taught at a high school where mostly everyone was evangelical. NO ONE had ever met an atheist. They thought we were just myths.

One day, a teacher asked me if she could “lay her hands on my head” to cure me of atheism. I politely said, “No, thank you.”

Then I realized – if I had offered to lay my hands on someone’s head to help them become an atheist, I would have been fired in a heartbeat.

And the Christians in the US think they are sooo abused….

Cynthia

On Behalf Of Jonnie HellensFriday, August 19, 2005 3:32 PM Subject: Re: Heathens

My MIL flipped her lid one time while I was there. She said some of her friends have been trying to convert her to Christianity and she's seriously offended and discusted about communion. She says her religion closely resembles Budhist, except she believes that when she dies, she's just nothing. I find that disconcerting, the thought of just disappearing!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

yeah..i'm so glad we gave all that up and worship a carpenter who's been dead fer 2000 years, and we eat a cracker and call it his body.....

Jonnie Hellens Aug 19, 2005 10:47 AM Re: Heathens

Ugh, I miss my mind... Let's see I can remember any.

There was one in which an old couple gives their daughter to this young chap, he then takes over the place, forcing them to move into a small hut and hardly giving them any food. The SIL goes hunting each day, taking the old man with him to drive the animals thru a gap. The SIL is a good shot, but only wounds a buffalo and somehow he ends up with a clot of blood from the buffalo, hides it and takes it home. At home he tells his wife to boil some water and he dumps in the clot of blood, which turns into a baby. Thru a ritual, the baby is an adult by the next day. He gets rid of the evil SIL and then turns his attention to other repressed creatures. It was a Blackfoot myth called Blood-Clot. I can't remember it's Native American name, started with a K, Kutoyis I think.Jo Cwazy

<heartwork wrote:

Jonnie

Which ones did you think were far-fetched?

Jo

-

Jonnie Hellens

Friday, August 19, 2005 5:06 PM

Re: Heathens

Yeah, it was a very thought provoking class about world wide religions. Some of the myths were just too far fetched for me to even imagine. I guess that is what faith is.

Lynda <lurine wrote:

Oh boy, want to start a real war, call it a book of myths. Which, be definition it is. However, question them calling the beliefs of others myths, oh, that's different. that's o.k. That's the truth. Blah, blah, blah.

Lynda

-

Jonnie Hellens

Thursday, August 18, 2005 4:27 PM

Re: Heathens

I took a mythology class, based on Joseph Campbell's Hero of a Thousand faces. He said that the major religions are really the same thing, with the characters called by different names. He also said that the religious stories were symbolic of things, not actual events, to help us understand what can not be understood. (Them's fightin' words to many people.) fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

read that way back in the 80's

well..nuthin in it can be proven really..lotsa theories and such..

tho..i was intrigued at the time with the concept of jesus not being crucified and all that

and of course, it all became a best seller last year with the Da Vinci book.... peter hurd Aug 18, 2005 1:28 PM Re: Heathens

ALLEDGEDLY.......................Read R.S. & The holy Grail, I finished it this morning.Shit ending and realy just a time filler rather than a life changer, but the historical stuff ( if acurate ) is interesting. Now I need something else to read, Visited the library lunch time to take thebook back and picked up a Tom Holt to read. Hope its good.........any suggestions? nuthin too heavy for my retarded intellect!

The Valley Vegan..........fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

yeah..they scaled down the backside..carrying off "the treasures"... peter hurd Aug 18, 2005 11:29 AM Re: Heathens

Yes but what conviction, they marched down to the meadow of their own choice, without putting up any sort of fight despite knowing what was waiting for them..........incineration.

The holy grail nonsense stems from the story that a couple of them climbed over the back wall scaling the cliffs carrying some"sacred holy treasure" before they surrendered.

Load of twaddle, but interesting twaddle nevertheless!

The Valley Vegan.............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

and they are linked with the holy grail.....

i think it was at montsegur where they were given a chance to surrender, but they said "give us a couple days", and then refused, and in the meantime, all the knights who were there with em converted to Catharism inside the castle and were then all killed with the regular Cathars...man, thats gotta be some good PR they were sellin at the last minute

"excuse me Sir Rolf, we really appreciate you fighting fer us, and, even tho it means yer death tomorrow, would you like to convert?"a blinding flash hotter than the sun dead bodies lie across the path the radiation colors the air finishing one by one

Peter H

Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail To send an email to -

August 22, 2005

Jonnie,

My appologies if I missread your words. I will admit that I am very synsitive when people talk about "myths" other than the Christian ones (that they normally do not see as a "myth") and therefore discredit them as not having any value. I try to allow everyone the right to believe in their own "myth" whether it works for me or not.

Blessings,

DragonspirithealerJonnie Hellens <jonnie_hellens wrote:

Actually DragonSpiritHealer, if you would have read the post, you would have seen that it was a myth that *I* have trouble with. I did not, nor never plan on stomping on other's beliefs and in actuallity, I am Native American, among many other things. I was asked what I believe in and while a lovely story, as you mentioned, I don't belive it. I accept that other's have different beliefs and sexual preferences and as far as I'm concerned, that's ok. It's what makes this world a beautiful rainbow.DragonSpiritHealer <dragonspirithealer wrote:

Hmmmmm, what would you say if you found out someone on this list was Native American, or shared in Native American Religious Beliefs/Paths? Please tread lightly when talking of others faith stories since you do not know the faiths of all those on this list. This is actually a rather lovely story in its complete form. A savior/helper is sent to one in need. Not too different from another story I have heard spread around alot, something about a virgin giving birth to a savior who dies on a cross. Just something to think about.

Jonnie Hellens <jonnie_hellens wrote:

Ugh, I miss my mind... Let's see I can remember any.

There was one in which an old couple gives their daughter to this young chap, he then takes over the place, forcing them to move into a small hut and hardly giving them any food. The SIL goes hunting each day, taking the old man with him to drive the animals thru a gap. The SIL is a good shot, but only wounds a buffalo and somehow he ends up with a clot of blood from the buffalo, hides it and takes it home. At home he tells his wife to boil some water and he dumps in the clot of blood, which turns into a baby. Thru a ritual, the baby is an adult by the next day. He gets rid of the evil SIL and then turns his attention to other repressed creatures. It was a Blackfoot myth called Blood-Clot. I can't remember it's Native American name, started with a K, Kutoyis I think.Jo Cwazy <heartwork wrote:

Jonnie

Which ones did you think were far-fetched?

Jo

-

Jonnie Hellens

Friday, August 19, 2005 5:06 PM

Re: Heathens

Yeah, it was a very thought provoking class about world wide religions. Some of the myths were just too far fetched for me to even imagine. I guess that is what faith is.

Lynda <lurine wrote:

Oh boy, want to start a real war, call it a book of myths. Which, be definition it is. However, question them calling the beliefs of others myths, oh, that's different. that's o.k. That's the truth. Blah, blah, blah.

Lynda

-

Jonnie Hellens

Thursday, August 18, 2005 4:27 PM

Re: Heathens

I took a mythology class, based on Joseph Campbell's Hero of a Thousand faces. He said that the major religions are really the same thing, with the characters called by different names. He also said that the religious stories were symbolic of things, not actual events, to help us understand what can not be understood. (Them's fightin' words to many people.) fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

read that way back in the 80's

well..nuthin in it can be proven really..lotsa theories and such..

tho..i was intrigued at the time with the concept of jesus not being crucified and all that

and of course, it all became a best seller last year with the Da Vinci book.... peter hurd Aug 18, 2005 1:28 PM Re: Heathens

ALLEDGEDLY.......................Read R.S. & The holy Grail, I finished it this morning.Shit ending and realy just a time filler rather than a life changer, but the historical stuff ( if acurate ) is interesting. Now I need something else to read, Visited the library lunch time to take thebook back and picked up a Tom Holt to read. Hope its good.........any suggestions? nuthin too heavy for my retarded intellect!

The Valley Vegan..........fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

yeah..they scaled down the backside..carrying off "the treasures"... peter hurd Aug 18, 2005 11:29 AM Re: Heathens

Yes but what conviction, they marched down to the meadow of their own choice, without putting up any sort of fight despite knowing what was waiting for them..........incineration.

The holy grail nonsense stems from the story that a couple of them climbed over the back wall scaling the cliffs carrying some"sacred holy treasure" before they surrendered.

Load of twaddle, but interesting twaddle nevertheless!

The Valley Vegan.............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

and they are linked with the holy grail.....

i think it was at montsegur where they were given a chance to surrender, but they said "give us a couple days", and then refused, and in the meantime, all the knights who were there with em converted to Catharism inside the castle and were then all killed with the regular Cathars...man, thats gotta be some good PR they were sellin at the last minute

"excuse me Sir Rolf, we really appreciate you fighting fer us, and, even tho it means yer death tomorrow, would you like to convert?"a blinding flash hotter than the sun dead bodies lie across the path the radiation colors the air

finishing one by one

Peter H

Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail To send an email to -

August 22, 2005

Hi Jonnie

> Aw come on fraggle.... share the wealth, some of us would like to learn things... tell us more details about the Templars and

> the Cathers.

I suspect Fraggle has beaten me to it... but...

Templars... created by a group of crusaders led by Hugues de Payen and Andre de Montbard. In 1118 a group of 9 knights from Flanders and Champagne approached the new king of Jerusalem (Baldwin), asking to be allowed to lodge in the stables on the side of Temple Mount in order to protect pilgrims from attack by Muslims. He granted them the right to stay in the stables, and in 1119 they were blessed by the Patriach of Jerusalem, and took an oath of poverty, chastity and obedience. Over the next ten years they seem to have done very little protecting of pilgrims, but spent quite a lot of time excavating under Temple Mount - it seems to be generally believed that they were searching for the Ark of the Covenant, which in the middle ages was believed to have been buried there by the Israelites when Nebuchadnezzar invaded Jerusalem. In 1125 they were joined by Hugh, Count of Champagne, and at some point they started to receive funding from Fulk of Anjou (grandfather of the Plantagenet kings of England). By 1128 there were at least 12 members, but no-one knows exactly how many, and in 1128 they were recognised by the Pope at the Council of Troyes, and given a monastic rule based largely on the Cistercian rule and written by Bernard of Clairvaux. Over the next 50 years they began to amass wealth, and became the pre-cursor of modern banking institutions by loaning money and charging interest. They had bases all across Europe, particularly in France, as well as the Middle East and Cyprus. They also had heavy political connections with the Scottish noble families (most notably the Sinclairs). There also seems to be some evidence of them spending time in Ethiopia toward the end of the 12th century. At the end of the 13th century things started to go a bit wrong... as the last part of the Holy Land fell to the Muslims, Templars were blamed for failing in their Christian duties, and there were calls for them to be merged with the Hospitallers. They were also facing problems in France, where King Philip owed them more than 300 times the entire annual income of France. In a series of complicated political manouevering, involving the murder of a Pope, over 10,000 Templars were arrested in one morning, and tortured to extract confessions. They were eventually charged with heresy, treason, idol worship, sodomy, and a whole bunch of other things. The Pope supported the charges, and ordered that the Templars be arrested everywhere. In fact, this tended not to happen. In France they were arrested. In Spain and England, there was suspicion over the accusations, and only half-hearted attempts were made to arrest and try Templars. In Scotland, King Robert (Bruce) had been ex-communicated, and therefore completely ignored the instructions. Portugal was also rather reticent. Eventually, in 1312, the Templars were officially disolved by the Pope, and 2 years later the last Grand Master, Jacques de Molay, along with the Preceptor of France, were burned as relapsed heretics. A large number of Templars seem to have ended up joining the newly formed "Knights of Christ", while others simply slipped into the background. A fleet of 18 ships left La Rochelle in 1307 never to be seen again, and most of the Templar funds were never accounted for (hence the conspiracy theories).

Cathars... a dualistic group who lived in the Albi area of France (often referred to as Langue D'Oc in reference to the language spoken in the area). In very simple terms they believed in two gods - a "Rex Mundi" who created the physical world, and a god who created the spiritual. They were largely destroyed in the Albigensian crusade. Some people have connected them to Templars, but I'm not at all convinced, and there seems to be little solid evidence to suggest any connection.

BB

Peter

August 22, 2005

Hi Fraggle

> in a nutshell..the cathars were a x-tian sect in the 11th thru 13th centuries, mainly located in southern france, but with

> branches in italy and the balkans...they seem to have a connection with the bogomils(from which arises a certain quaint

> english sexual term..)

Cathars weren't Christian, since they weren't monotheistic!!!

That view comes from a misunderstanding of the nature of the Christian "God / Devil" polarity, and the nature of "Rex Mundi" in dualistic beliefs. Rex Mundi and the Devil aren't the same entity at all.

BB

Peter

August 22, 2005

Hi Fraggle / Peter

> tho..i was intrigued at the time with the concept of jesus not being crucified and all that

That is actually stated in the Bible... in Mark (I think) it states that "Barabas" is set free. In the original documents this is "Jesus Barabbas", which in Aramaic translates as "Jesus, son of the father"...

BB

Peter

August 22, 2005

Hi Lynda

> Oh, and the real topper. FDR, Stalin and Hitler all died within days of each other because observed the

> Russian Orthodox church and turned it into the Kremlin.

Well, I guess that 1945 and 1953 could be classified as "within days of each other"... just something like 3,000 days!

BB

Peter

August 22, 2005

Hi Jonnie

> I thought I read that they marched themselves happily into the fire? Of course, none are around to talk about it. I also read

> about the mystery of what may have been the Holy Grail. It's my understanding that they Holy Grail was a cup that held

> Christ's blood from when he was on the cross. How would that jive with Cather's belief system, since they think Jesus was

> just a spirit?

The Holy Grail you've described is a medieval construction, which didn't appear until quite late on: I believe it was Thomas Malory who first had that version of the Grail in Le Mort D'Arthur (although there might be a couple of earlier references). The earliest "Grail", from "Parzival" is described as a stone, and it stayed as a stone through most of the early Grail romances.

BB

Peter

August 22, 2005

i disagree

the basic tenent of x-tianity is belief in jesus christ as the messiah and the son of god and all that there...

some parts of x-tianity are more dualistic then others....

and, considering x-tianity has a whole lot of its basis beholden to zoarasterism, thats not suprising Peter Aug 22, 2005 3:00 AM Re: Heathens

Hi Fraggle

> in a nutshell..the cathars were a x-tian sect in the 11th thru 13th centuries, mainly located in southern france, but with

> branches in italy and the balkans...they seem to have a connection with the bogomils(from which arises a certain quaint

> english sexual term..)

Cathars weren't Christian, since they weren't monotheistic!!!

That view comes from a misunderstanding of the nature of the Christian "God / Devil" polarity, and the nature of "Rex Mundi" in dualistic beliefs. Rex Mundi and the Devil aren't the same entity at all.

BB

Peter

To send an email to -

August 22, 2005

That was a quote from the nutcase that was spamming homeschooling list. My question for her was "where in the blooming hell did you get this info."

Lynda

-

Peter

Monday, August 22, 2005 3:20 AM

Re: Heathens

Hi Lynda

> Oh, and the real topper. FDR, Stalin and Hitler all died within days of each other because observed the

> Russian Orthodox church and turned it into the Kremlin.

Well, I guess that 1945 and 1953 could be classified as "within days of each other"... just something like 3,000 days!

BB

Peter

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.14/79 - Release 8/22/05

August 22, 2005

I also remember in the class we read some myths that were supposed to be part of the bible and someone took them out. I wish I could remember what they were and who edited them. I remember that those too seemed hard to swallow (for me) and the explanation was also that they thought the myth was a little over the top and decided to leave them out.DragonSpiritHealer <dragonspirithealer wrote:

Jonnie,

My appologies if I missread your words. I will admit that I am very synsitive when people talk about "myths" other than the Christian ones (that they normally do not see as a "myth") and therefore discredit them as not having any value. I try to allow everyone the right to believe in their own "myth" whether it works for me or not.

Blessings,

DragonspirithealerJonnie Hellens <jonnie_hellens wrote:

Actually DragonSpiritHealer, if you would have read the post, you would have seen that it was a myth that *I* have trouble with. I did not, nor never plan on stomping on other's beliefs and in actuallity, I am Native American, among many other things. I was asked what I believe in and while a lovely story, as you mentioned, I don't belive it. I accept that other's have different beliefs and sexual preferences and as far as I'm concerned, that's ok. It's what makes this world a beautiful rainbow.DragonSpiritHealer <dragonspirithealer wrote:

Hmmmmm, what would you say if you found out someone on this list was Native American, or shared in Native American Religious Beliefs/Paths? Please tread lightly when talking of others faith stories since you do not know the faiths of all those on this list. This is actually a rather lovely story in its complete form. A savior/helper is sent to one in need. Not too different from another story I have heard spread around alot, something about a virgin giving birth to a savior who dies on a cross. Just something to think about.

Jonnie Hellens <jonnie_hellens wrote:

Ugh, I miss my mind... Let's see I can remember any.

There was one in which an old couple gives their daughter to this young chap, he then takes over the place, forcing them to move into a small hut and hardly giving them any food. The SIL goes hunting each day, taking the old man with him to drive the animals thru a gap. The SIL is a good shot, but only wounds a buffalo and somehow he ends up with a clot of blood from the buffalo, hides it and takes it home. At home he tells his wife to boil some water and he dumps in the clot of blood, which turns into a baby. Thru a ritual, the baby is an adult by the next day. He gets rid of the evil SIL and then turns his attention to other repressed creatures. It was a Blackfoot myth called Blood-Clot. I can't remember it's Native American name, started with a K, Kutoyis I think.Jo Cwazy <heartwork wrote:

Jonnie

Which ones did you think were far-fetched?

Jo

-

Jonnie Hellens

Friday, August 19, 2005 5:06 PM

Re: Heathens

Yeah, it was a very thought provoking class about world wide religions. Some of the myths were just too far fetched for me to even imagine. I guess that is what faith is.

Lynda <lurine wrote:

Oh boy, want to start a real war, call it a book of myths. Which, be definition it is. However, question them calling the beliefs of others myths, oh, that's different. that's o.k. That's the truth. Blah, blah, blah.

Lynda

-

Jonnie Hellens

Thursday, August 18, 2005 4:27 PM

Re: Heathens

I took a mythology class, based on Joseph Campbell's Hero of a Thousand faces. He said that the major religions are really the same thing, with the characters called by different names. He also said that the religious stories were symbolic of things, not actual events, to help us understand what can not be understood. (Them's fightin' words to many people.) fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

read that way back in the 80's

well..nuthin in it can be proven really..lotsa theories and such..

tho..i was intrigued at the time with the concept of jesus not being crucified and all that

and of course, it all became a best seller last year with the Da Vinci book.... peter hurd Aug 18, 2005 1:28 PM Re: Heathens

ALLEDGEDLY.......................Read R.S. & The holy Grail, I finished it this morning.Shit ending and realy just a time filler rather than a life changer, but the historical stuff ( if acurate ) is interesting. Now I need something else to read, Visited the library lunch time to take thebook back and picked up a Tom Holt to read. Hope its good.........any suggestions? nuthin too heavy for my retarded intellect!

The Valley Vegan..........fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

yeah..they scaled down the backside..carrying off "the treasures"... peter hurd Aug 18, 2005 11:29 AM Re: Heathens

Yes but what conviction, they marched down to the meadow of their own choice, without putting up any sort of fight despite knowing what was waiting for them..........incineration.

The holy grail nonsense stems from the story that a couple of them climbed over the back wall scaling the cliffs carrying some"sacred holy treasure" before they surrendered.

Load of twaddle, but interesting twaddle nevertheless!

The Valley Vegan.............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

and they are linked with the holy grail.....

i think it was at montsegur where they were given a chance to surrender, but they said "give us a couple days", and then refused, and in the meantime, all the knights who were there with em converted to Catharism inside the castle and were then all killed with the regular Cathars...man, thats gotta be some good PR they were sellin at the last minute

"excuse me Sir Rolf, we really appreciate you fighting fer us, and, even tho it means yer death tomorrow, would you like to convert?"a blinding flash hotter than the sun dead bodies lie across the path the radiation colors the air

finishing one by one

Peter H

Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail To send an email to -

August 22, 2005

Hi Fraggle

> the basic tenent of x-tianity is belief in jesus christ as the messiah and the son of god and all that there...

Which wasn't a belief held by the Cathars!

BB

Peter

August 22, 2005

the basic books to be placed in the x-tian bible were decided on at the Council of Nicea in 325CE

a whole slew of books that didn't make the cut were discarded, especially any having to do with Arianism(a contemporary rival of the Church of Rome) Jonnie Hellens Aug 22, 2005 11:08 AM Re: Heathens

I also remember in the class we read some myths that were supposed to be part of the bible and someone took them out. I wish I could remember what they were and who edited them. I remember that those too seemed hard to swallow (for me) and the explanation was also that they thought the myth was a little over the top and decided to leave them out.

a blinding flash hotter than the sun dead bodies lie across the path the radiation colors the air

finishing one by one

August 22, 2005

Hi Fraggle

> the basic books to be placed in the x-tian bible were decided on at the Council of Nicea in 325CE

> a whole slew of books that didn't make the cut were discarded, especially any having to do with Arianism(a contemporary

> rival of the Church of Rome)

It's been a while since I've read up on Christian history... but wasn't it Bishop Iraneaus in the 3rd century who decided on the books that were to be used in the "official" bible? I'm sure he was responsible for choosing the four gospels that ended up in the bible.

BB

Peter

August 22, 2005

The Catholic bibles, those that were around when I was a kid, at anyrate, had some of the additional books.

Lynda

-

fraggle

Monday, August 22, 2005 11:40 AM

Re: Heathens

the basic books to be placed in the x-tian bible were decided on at the Council of Nicea in 325CE

a whole slew of books that didn't make the cut were discarded, especially any having to do with Arianism(a contemporary rival of the Church of Rome) Jonnie Hellens Aug 22, 2005 11:08 AM Re: Heathens

I also remember in the class we read some myths that were supposed to be part of the bible and someone took them out. I wish I could remember what they were and who edited them. I remember that those too seemed hard to swallow (for me) and the explanation was also that they thought the myth was a little over the top and decided to leave them out.

a blinding flash hotter than the sun dead bodies lie across the path the radiation colors the air

finishing one by one

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.14/79 - Release 8/22/05

August 22, 2005

Hi Lynda

> The Catholic bibles, those that were around when I was a kid, at anyrate, had some of the additional books.

The Catholic Bible is slightly different to the Anglican Bible. The latter was put together during the 17th century at the behest of King James (hence it being called the "King James Bible"), and was, I believe, based on the bible which had started to form during the Edwardian reformation (someone who's studied the make-up of the bible would be useful here). Other bibles are also different... in Ethiopia they have a variety of books which were removed early on in the West, including Enoch, and even a book of their own, the Kebra Nagast.

BB

Peter

August 22, 2005

I knew someone on here would know and most likely it would be you fraggle! The myths we read were continuation of some of the books of the bible as we now know it, I think in the new testament. Sure wish I could remember 'em.fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

the basic books to be placed in the x-tian bible were decided on at the Council of Nicea in 325CE

a whole slew of books that didn't make the cut were discarded, especially any having to do with Arianism(a contemporary rival of the Church of Rome) Jonnie Hellens Aug 22, 2005 11:08 AM Re: Heathens

I also remember in the class we read some myths that were supposed to be part of the bible and someone took them out. I wish I could remember what they were and who edited them. I remember that those too seemed hard to swallow (for me) and the explanation was also that they thought the myth was a little over the top and decided to leave them out.

a blinding flash hotter than the sun dead bodies lie across the path the radiation colors the air

finishing one by one Jonnie

August 22, 2005

I believe it was the Bishop that was credited with choosing to axe some stuff, at least in this course.Peter <metalscarab wrote:

Hi Fraggle

> the basic books to be placed in the x-tian bible were decided on at the Council of Nicea in 325CE

> a whole slew of books that didn't make the cut were discarded, especially any having to do with Arianism(a contemporary

> rival of the Church of Rome)

It's been a while since I've read up on Christian history... but wasn't it Bishop Iraneaus in the 3rd century who decided on the books that were to be used in the "official" bible? I'm sure he was responsible for choosing the four gospels that ended up in the bible.

BB

PeterJonnie

Start your day with - make it your home page

August 23, 2005

Were the stories in the apacrapha? The extended portion of the Bible that is normally found in the Bibles used by the Catholic churches? Most people do not know that there are two main types of bibles much less that the version used has a berring on the way the text reads.

Jonnie Hellens <jonnie_hellens wrote:

I also remember in the class we read some myths that were supposed to be part of the bible and someone took them out. I wish I could remember what they were and who edited them. I remember that those too seemed hard to swallow (for me) and the explanation was also that they thought the myth was a little over the top and decided to leave them out.DragonSpiritHealer <dragonspirithealer wrote:

Jonnie,

My appologies if I missread your words. I will admit that I am very synsitive when people talk about "myths" other than the Christian ones (that they normally do not see as a "myth") and therefore discredit them as not having any value. I try to allow everyone the right to believe in their own "myth" whether it works for me or not.

Blessings,

DragonspirithealerJonnie Hellens <jonnie_hellens wrote:

Actually DragonSpiritHealer, if you would have read the post, you would have seen that it was a myth that *I* have trouble with. I did not, nor never plan on stomping on other's beliefs and in actuallity, I am Native American, among many other things. I was asked what I believe in and while a lovely story, as you mentioned, I don't belive it. I accept that other's have different beliefs and sexual preferences and as far as I'm concerned, that's ok. It's what makes this world a beautiful rainbow.DragonSpiritHealer <dragonspirithealer wrote:

Hmmmmm, what would you say if you found out someone on this list was Native American, or shared in Native American Religious Beliefs/Paths? Please tread lightly when talking of others faith stories since you do not know the faiths of all those on this list. This is actually a rather lovely story in its complete form. A savior/helper is sent to one in need. Not too different from another story I have heard spread around alot, something about a virgin giving birth to a savior who dies on a cross. Just something to think about.

Jonnie Hellens <jonnie_hellens wrote:

Ugh, I miss my mind... Let's see I can remember any.

There was one in which an old couple gives their daughter to this young chap, he then takes over the place, forcing them to move into a small hut and hardly giving them any food. The SIL goes hunting each day, taking the old man with him to drive the animals thru a gap. The SIL is a good shot, but only wounds a buffalo and somehow he ends up with a clot of blood from the buffalo, hides it and takes it home. At home he tells his wife to boil some water and he dumps in the clot of blood, which turns into a baby. Thru a ritual, the baby is an adult by the next day. He gets rid of the evil SIL and then turns his attention to other repressed creatures. It was a Blackfoot myth called Blood-Clot. I can't remember it's Native American name, started with a K, Kutoyis I think.Jo Cwazy <heartwork wrote:

Jonnie

Which ones did you think were far-fetched?

Jo

-

Jonnie Hellens

Friday, August 19, 2005 5:06 PM

Re: Heathens

Yeah, it was a very thought provoking class about world wide religions. Some of the myths were just too far fetched for me to even imagine. I guess that is what faith is.

Lynda <lurine wrote:

Oh boy, want to start a real war, call it a book of myths. Which, be definition it is. However, question them calling the beliefs of others myths, oh, that's different. that's o.k. That's the truth. Blah, blah, blah.

Lynda

-

Jonnie Hellens

Thursday, August 18, 2005 4:27 PM

Re: Heathens

I took a mythology class, based on Joseph Campbell's Hero of a Thousand faces. He said that the major religions are really the same thing, with the characters called by different names. He also said that the religious stories were symbolic of things, not actual events, to help us understand what can not be understood. (Them's fightin' words to many people.) fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

read that way back in the 80's

well..nuthin in it can be proven really..lotsa theories and such..

tho..i was intrigued at the time with the concept of jesus not being crucified and all that

and of course, it all became a best seller last year with the Da Vinci book.... peter hurd Aug 18, 2005 1:28 PM Re: Heathens

ALLEDGEDLY.......................Read R.S. & The holy Grail, I finished it this morning.Shit ending and realy just a time filler rather than a life changer, but the historical stuff ( if acurate ) is interesting. Now I need something else to read, Visited the library lunch time to take thebook back and picked up a Tom Holt to read. Hope its good.........any suggestions? nuthin too heavy for my retarded intellect!

The Valley Vegan..........fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

yeah..they scaled down the backside..carrying off "the treasures"... peter hurd Aug 18, 2005 11:29 AM Re: Heathens

Yes but what conviction, they marched down to the meadow of their own choice, without putting up any sort of fight despite knowing what was waiting for them..........incineration.

The holy grail nonsense stems from the story that a couple of them climbed over the back wall scaling the cliffs carrying some"sacred holy treasure" before they surrendered.

Load of twaddle, but interesting twaddle nevertheless!

The Valley Vegan.............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

and they are linked with the holy grail.....

i think it was at montsegur where they were given a chance to surrender, but they said "give us a couple days", and then refused, and in the meantime, all the knights who were there with em converted to Catharism inside the castle and were then all killed with the regular Cathars...man, thats gotta be some good PR they were sellin at the last minute

"excuse me Sir Rolf, we really appreciate you fighting fer us, and, even tho it means yer death tomorrow, would you like to convert?"a blinding flash hotter than the sun dead bodies lie across the path the radiation colors the air

finishing one by one

Peter H

Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail To send an email to -

August 23, 2005

Thank you Peter! (sweet smile)Peter <metalscarab wrote:

Hi Jonnie

> Aw come on fraggle.... share the wealth, some of us would like to learn things... tell us more details about the Templars and

> the Cathers.

I suspect Fraggle has beaten me to it... but...

Templars... created by a group of crusaders led by Hugues de Payen and Andre de Montbard. In 1118 a group of 9 knights from Flanders and Champagne approached the new king of Jerusalem (Baldwin), asking to be allowed to lodge in the stables on the side of Temple Mount in order to protect pilgrims from attack by Muslims. He granted them the right to stay in the stables, and in 1119 they were blessed by the Patriach of Jerusalem, and took an oath of poverty, chastity and obedience. Over the next ten years they seem to have done very little protecting of pilgrims, but spent quite a lot of time excavating under Temple Mount - it seems to be generally believed that they were searching for the Ark of the Covenant, which in the middle ages was believed to have been buried there by the Israelites when Nebuchadnezzar invaded Jerusalem. In 1125 they were joined by Hugh, Count of Champagne, and at some point they started to receive funding from Fulk of Anjou

(grandfather of the Plantagenet kings of England). By 1128 there were at least 12 members, but no-one knows exactly how many, and in 1128 they were recognised by the Pope at the Council of Troyes, and given a monastic rule based largely on the Cistercian rule and written by Bernard of Clairvaux. Over the next 50 years they began to amass wealth, and became the pre-cursor of modern banking institutions by loaning money and charging interest. They had bases all across Europe, particularly in France, as well as the Middle East and Cyprus. They also had heavy political connections with the Scottish noble families (most notably the Sinclairs). There also seems to be some evidence of them spending time in Ethiopia toward the end of the 12th century. At the end of the 13th century things started to go a bit wrong... as the last part of the Holy Land fell to the Muslims, Templars were blamed for failing in their Christian duties, and there were calls for them to be merged with the

Hospitallers. They were also facing problems in France, where King Philip owed them more than 300 times the entire annual income of France. In a series of complicated political manouevering, involving the murder of a Pope, over 10,000 Templars were arrested in one morning, and tortured to extract confessions. They were eventually charged with heresy, treason, idol worship, sodomy, and a whole bunch of other things. The Pope supported the charges, and ordered that the Templars be arrested everywhere. In fact, this tended not to happen. In France they were arrested. In Spain and England, there was suspicion over the accusations, and only half-hearted attempts were made to arrest and try Templars. In Scotland, King Robert (Bruce) had been ex-communicated, and therefore completely ignored the instructions. Portugal was also rather reticent. Eventually, in 1312, the Templars were officially disolved by the Pope, and 2 years later the last Grand Master, Jacques de Molay, along with the

Preceptor of France, were burned as relapsed heretics. A large number of Templars seem to have ended up joining the newly formed "Knights of Christ", while others simply slipped into the background. A fleet of 18 ships left La Rochelle in 1307 never to be seen again, and most of the Templar funds were never accounted for (hence the conspiracy theories).

Cathars... a dualistic group who lived in the Albi area of France (often referred to as Langue D'Oc in reference to the language spoken in the area). In very simple terms they believed in two gods - a "Rex Mundi" who created the physical world, and a god who created the spiritual. They were largely destroyed in the Albigensian crusade. Some people have connected them to Templars, but I'm not at all convinced, and there seems to be little solid evidence to suggest any connection.

BB

PeterJonnie

August 23, 2005

Nope, not in the UK. We actually call our area The Valley, Phoenix, Arizona, that is. BTW, you removed the 'Welsh' out of your tagline? I thought it kinda worked.peter hurd <swpgh01 wrote:

I could tell you about the beer, but then I would have to kill you.

Are you in the UK? If not my list may not be of use.

The Valley Vegan...........Jonnie Hellens <jonnie_hellens wrote:

Hmm... banana bread bread? Sounds intriguing! I didn't used to drink (until doc told me 1 alcoholic drink a day is good for the heart) and we went to some breweries for meals. I remember reading about jalepeno beer and some others, that I now want to go try. Gotta be a very frosty mug and the beer icy cold though. Otherwise in this weather, you soon have warm beer, which I can't stand! Tell me about some other (what is it called microbrewed?) unusual beers.peter hurd <swpgh01 wrote:

As you seem to know a bit about food, can you advise me as to which olives should I try ( never tried them), there seem to be so many types - green/black/greek/spanish/stuffed etc.

Also being the philistine that I am,and never tried them before, I bought some figs to try the other week as they were reduced. What on earth do you do with them? Do you peel them? do you eat all those seeds? I eat some of them , but to be honest they were sweet, but seedy.........

I know a lot of you out there are thinking, what is he like eh?but I never usually have money to spend on exotics.( he says taking a sip of his banana bread beer!)

The Valley Vegan...........serene <serene wrote:

peter hurd wrote:> Thanks for the tip Serene, sounds good, and not a mention of> religion! I love it when a plan comes together.*giggle* I'm an atheist. Religion, in general, bores me. Food, on the other hand.Last night, we had thick slices of vegan olive bread spread with a paste of freshly roasted garlic, olive oil, and salt, and topped with roasted red peppers (from a jar). What have y'all been eating that's yummy lately? I'm back after a long nomail period, and I'm vegan again (for 5 days now, after two years of on-again-off-again), so I'm looking for my vicarious food porn. :-)serene

August 24, 2005

Hi Peter

And see, you were under the belief that we Americans thought 100

years was long!

BB

Nikki

, " Peter " <metalscarab@c...> wrote:

> Hi Lynda

>

> > Oh, and the real topper. FDR, Stalin and Hitler all died within

days of each other because observed the

> > Russian Orthodox church and turned it into the Kremlin.

>

> Well, I guess that 1945 and 1953 could be classified as " within

days of each other " ... just something like 3,000 days!

>

> BB

> Peter

August 27, 2005

Sorry I took so long to answer this. I

was not fired or anything, but I went to another high school. I live in

Maryland (US). I still stump the kids by mentioning at times that my family are

atheists, because the kids eyes get real big when they realize there is no

Christmas, etc. It is a learning experience for them to meet someone “different”.

Cynthia

On Behalf Of DragonSpiritHealer

Sunday, August 21, 2005

10:31 PM

RE: Heathens

Cynthia,

I smiled as I read this. Not that it happened, but at your

question. This teacher thought she was helping you and never would have

considered her question as unwanted, unwelcome, or inappropriate. Yet,

you are right, had the roles been reversed, you would have been fired, but I

expect she was not. My first question, is did you get let go/fired?

My second question is where do you live? I wish you well.

Blessings,

Dragonspirithealer

Cynthia Gadarian

<cgadarian wrote:

I taught at a high school where mostly

everyone was evangelical. NO ONE had ever met an atheist. They

thought we were just myths.

One day, a teacher asked me if she could

“lay her hands on my head” to cure me of atheism. I politely

said, “No, thank you.”

Then I realized – if I had offered

to lay my hands on someone’s head to help them become an atheist, I would

have been fired in a heartbeat.

And the Christians in the US

think they are sooo abused….

Cynthia

On Behalf Of Jonnie Hellens

Friday, August 19, 2005 3:32

PM

Re: Heathens

My MIL flipped her lid one time while I was there. She said some

of her friends have been trying to convert her to Christianity and she's

seriously offended and discusted about communion. She says her religion

closely resembles Budhist, except she believes that when she dies, she's just nothing.

I find that disconcerting, the thought of just disappearing!

fraggle

<EBbrewpunx wrote:

yeah..i'm so glad we gave all that up and worship a carpenter who's

been dead fer 2000 years, and we eat a cracker and call it his body.....

Jonnie Hellens

Aug 19, 2005 10:47 AM

Re: Heathens

Ugh, I miss my mind... Let's see I can remember any.

There was one in which an old couple gives their daughter to this young

chap, he then takes over the place, forcing them to move into a small hut and

hardly giving them any food. The SIL goes hunting each day, taking the

old man with him to drive the animals thru a gap. The SIL is a good

shot, but only wounds a buffalo and somehow he ends up with a clot of

blood from the buffalo, hides it and takes it home. At home he tells

his wife to boil some water and he dumps in the clot of blood, which turns into

a baby. Thru a ritual, the baby is an adult by the next day. He

gets rid of the evil SIL and then turns his attention to other repressed

creatures. It was a Blackfoot myth called Blood-Clot. I can't

remember it's Native American name, started with a K, Kutoyis I think.

Jo Cwazy

<heartwork wrote:

Jonnie

Which ones did you think were far-fetched?

Jo

-

Jonnie

Hellens

Friday, August 19,

2005 5:06 PM

Re:

Heathens

Yeah, it was a very thought provoking class about world wide

religions. Some of the myths were just too far fetched for me to even

imagine. I guess that is what faith is.

Lynda <lurine

wrote:

Oh boy, want to start a real war, call it a book of

myths. Which, be definition it is. However, question them calling

the beliefs of others myths, oh, that's different. that's o.k.

That's the truth. Blah, blah, blah.

Lynda

-

Jonnie

Hellens

Thursday, August

18, 2005 4:27 PM

Re:

Heathens

I took a mythology class, based on Joseph Campbell's Hero of a Thousand

faces. He said that the major religions are really the

same thing, with the characters called by different names. He also said

that the religious stories were symbolic of things, not actual events, to help

us understand what can not be understood. (Them's fightin' words to many

people.)

fraggle

<EBbrewpunx wrote:

read that way

back in the 80's

well..nuthin in it can be proven really..lotsa theories and such..

tho..i was intrigued at the time with the concept of jesus not being

crucified and all that

and of course, it all

became a best seller last year with the Da Vinci book....

peter hurd

Aug 18, 2005 1:28 PM

Re: Heathens

ALLEDGEDLY.......................Read R.S. & The

holy Grail, I finished it this morning.Shit ending and realy just a time filler

rather than a life changer, but the historical stuff ( if acurate ) is

interesting. Now I need something else to read, Visited the library lunch time

to take thebook back and picked up a Tom Holt to read. Hope its

good.........any suggestions? nuthin too heavy for my retarded intellect!

The Valley Vegan..........

fraggle

<EBbrewpunx wrote:

yeah..they scaled down

the backside..carrying off " the treasures " ...

peter hurd

Aug 18, 2005 11:29 AM

Re: Heathens

Yes but what conviction, they marched down to the meadow of their own

choice, without putting up any sort of fight despite knowing what was waiting

for them..........incineration.

The holy grail nonsense stems from the story that a couple of them

climbed over the back wall scaling the cliffs carrying some " sacred holy

treasure " before they surrendered.

Load of twaddle, but interesting twaddle nevertheless!

The Valley Vegan.............

fraggle

<EBbrewpunx wrote:

and they are linked with the holy grail.....

i think it was at montsegur where they were given a chance to

surrender, but they said " give us a couple days " , and then refused,

and in the meantime, all the knights who were there with em converted to

Catharism inside the castle and were then all killed with the regular

Cathars...man, thats gotta be some good PR they were sellin at the last minute

" excuse me Sir Rolf, we really appreciate you fighting fer us, and,

even tho it means yer death tomorrow, would you like to convert? "

a blinding flash hotter than the sun dead bodies lie across the path the radiation colors the air finishing one by one

Peter H

Messenger NEW -

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worldwide with voicemail

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a blinding flash hotter than the sun dead bodies lie across the path the radiation colors the air finishing one by one

Jonnie

Start

your day with - make it your home page

August 27, 2005

I went to a catholic middle school because my fathers side of the

family was catholic. My mother however believes and practices a good

form of voodoo. No she doesnt do voodoo dolls or place evil curses on

people. But I started to explore my moms side of religion because I

was interested. Random people, including teachers, started showing up

at my house to preach to my mom. Hense why I went to a public

highschool. Unfortunatly it wasnt any better there. My best friend and

I were busted smoking on school campus. Neither one of us had a

record. and when they search her backpack they found a book of

shadows, her spell book, and they gave her out of school suspension,

where as I only got ISS. There was also a pagan club on campus, that

was told to disband, they used the excuse that it wasnt a recognized

religion, where as there was also a christian club that was allowed

to continue. And then was in San Diego California. Now I live in

Georgia, and I am utterly terrified to tell anyone what religion I

practice because of the fact that its so christian down here. I just

wish everyone would respect everyone else's religion choices.

, " Cynthia Gadarian " <cgadarian@a...>

wrote:

> Sorry I took so long to answer this. I was not fired or anything, but I

> went to another high school. I live in Maryland (US). I still stump the

> kids by mentioning at times that my family are atheists, because the

kids

> eyes get real big when they realize there is no Christmas, etc. It is a

> learning experience for them to meet someone " different " . Cynthia

>

> _____

>

> On

> Behalf Of DragonSpiritHealer

> Sunday, August 21, 2005 10:31 PM

>

> RE: Heathens

>

> Cynthia,

>

> I smiled as I read this. Not that it happened, but at your

question. This

> teacher thought she was helping you and never would have considered her

> question as unwanted, unwelcome, or inappropriate. Yet, you are

right, had

> the roles been reversed, you would have been fired, but I expect she was

> not. My first question, is did you get let go/fired? My second

question is

> where do you live? I wish you well.

>

> Blessings,

>

> Dragonspirithealer

>

> Cynthia Gadarian <cgadarian@a...> wrote:

>

> I taught at a high school where mostly everyone was evangelical. NO

ONE had

> ever met an atheist. They thought we were just myths.

>

> One day, a teacher asked me if she could " lay her hands on my head "

to cure

> me of atheism. I politely said, " No, thank you. "

>

> Then I realized - if I had offered to lay my hands on someone's head

to help

> them become an atheist, I would have been fired in a heartbeat.

>

> And the Christians in the US think they are sooo abused..

>

> Cynthia

>

> _____

>

> On

> Behalf Of Jonnie Hellens

> Friday, August 19, 2005 3:32 PM

>

> Re: Heathens

>

> My MIL flipped her lid one time while I was there. She said some of her

> friends have been trying to convert her to Christianity and she's

seriously

> offended and discusted about communion. She says her religion closely

> resembles Budhist, except she believes that when she dies, she's just

> nothing. I find that disconcerting, the thought of just disappearing!

>

> fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote:

>

> yeah..i'm so glad we gave all that up and worship a carpenter who's been

> dead fer 2000 years, and we eat a cracker and call it his body.....

>

> Jonnie Hellens

> Aug 19, 2005 10:47 AM

>

> Re: Heathens

>

> Ugh, I miss my mind... Let's see I can remember any.

>

> There was one in which an old couple gives their daughter to this young

> chap, he then takes over the place, forcing them to move into a

small hut

> and hardly giving them any food. The SIL goes hunting each day,

taking the

> old man with him to drive the animals thru a gap. The SIL is a good

shot,

> but only wounds a buffalo and somehow he ends up with a clot of

blood from

> the buffalo, hides it and takes it home. At home he tells his wife

to boil

> some water and he dumps in the clot of blood, which turns into a

baby. Thru

> a ritual, the baby is an adult by the next day. He gets rid of the

evil SIL

> and then turns his attention to other repressed creatures. It was a

> Blackfoot myth called Blood-Clot. I can't remember it's Native American

> name, started with a K, Kutoyis I think.

>

> Jo Cwazy <heartwork@c...> wrote:

>

> Jonnie

>

> Which ones did you think were far-fetched?

>

> Jo

>

> -

>

> Jonnie <jonnie_hellens> Hellens

>

> Friday, August 19, 2005 5:06 PM

>

> Re: Heathens

>

> Yeah, it was a very thought provoking class about world wide religions.

> Some of the myths were just too far fetched for me to even imagine.

I guess

> that is what faith is.

>

> Lynda <lurine@s...> wrote:

>

> Oh boy, want to start a real war, call it a book of myths. Which, be

> definition it is. However, question them calling the beliefs of others

> myths, oh, that's different. that's o.k. That's the truth. Blah,

blah,

> blah.

>

> Lynda

>

> -

>

> Jonnie <jonnie_hellens> Hellens

>

> Thursday, August 18, 2005 4:27 PM

>

> Re: Heathens

>

> I took a mythology class, based on Joseph Campbell's Hero of a Thousand

> faces. He said that the major religions are really the same thing,

with the

> characters called by different names. He also said that the religious

> stories were symbolic of things, not actual events, to help us

understand

> what can not be understood. (Them's fightin' words to many people.)

>

> fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote:

>

> read that way back in the 80's

>

> well..nuthin in it can be proven really..lotsa theories and such..

>

> tho..i was intrigued at the time with the concept of jesus not being

> crucified and all that

>

> and of course, it all became a best seller last year with the Da Vinci

> book....

>

> peter hurd

> Aug 18, 2005 1:28 PM

>

> Re: Heathens

>

> ALLEDGEDLY.......................Read R.S. & The holy Grail, I

finished it

> this morning.Shit ending and realy just a time filler rather than a life

> changer, but the historical stuff ( if acurate ) is interesting. Now

I need

> something else to read, Visited the library lunch time to take

thebook back

> and picked up a Tom Holt to read. Hope its good.........any suggestions?

> nuthin too heavy for my retarded intellect!

>

> The Valley Vegan..........

> fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote:

>

> yeah..they scaled down the backside..carrying off " the treasures " ...

>

> peter hurd

> Aug 18, 2005 11:29 AM

>

> Re: Heathens

>

> Yes but what conviction, they marched down to the meadow of their own

> choice, without putting up any sort of fight despite knowing what was

> waiting for them..........incineration.

>

> The holy grail nonsense stems from the story that a couple of them

climbed

> over the back wall scaling the cliffs carrying some " sacred holy

treasure "

> before they surrendered.

>

> Load of twaddle, but interesting twaddle nevertheless!

>

> The Valley Vegan.............

>

> fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote:

>

> and they are linked with the holy grail.....

>

> i think it was at montsegur where they were given a chance to

surrender, but

> they said " give us a couple days " , and then refused, and in the

meantime,

> all the knights who were there with em converted to Catharism inside the

> castle and were then all killed with the regular Cathars...man,

thats gotta

> be some good PR they were sellin at the last minute

>

> " excuse me Sir Rolf, we really appreciate you fighting fer us, and,

even tho

> it means yer death tomorrow, would you like to convert? "

>

> a blinding flash

> hotter than the sun

> dead bodies lie across the path

> the radiation colors the air

> finishing one by one

>

> Peter H

>

> <http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/47.gif>

>

> _____

>

<http://us.rd./mail/uk/taglines/default/messenger/*http:/uk.messeng

> er.> Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling

>

<http://us.rd./mail/uk/taglines/default/messenger/*http:/uk.messeng

> er.> worldwide with voicemail

>

> To send an email to -

>

August 28, 2005

People can be strange. It is a shame you couldn't be open about your

beliefs because of these people, and even more sad that the same

situation is still with you.

Jo

, " cheer_bears_surprise "

<ishtar626@g...> wrote:

> I went to a catholic middle school because my fathers side of the

> family was catholic. My mother however believes and practices a good

> form of voodoo. No she doesnt do voodoo dolls or place evil curses on

> people. But I started to explore my moms side of religion because I

> was interested. Random people, including teachers, started showing up

> at my house to preach to my mom. Hense why I went to a public

> highschool. Unfortunatly it wasnt any better there. My best friend and

> I were busted smoking on school campus. Neither one of us had a

> record. and when they search her backpack they found a book of

> shadows, her spell book, and they gave her out of school suspension,

> where as I only got ISS. There was also a pagan club on campus, that

> was told to disband, they used the excuse that it wasnt a recognized

> religion, where as there was also a christian club that was allowed

> to continue. And then was in San Diego California. Now I live in

> Georgia, and I am utterly terrified to tell anyone what religion I

> practice because of the fact that its so christian down here. I just

> wish everyone would respect everyone else's religion choices.

>

> , " Cynthia Gadarian " <cgadarian@a...>

> wrote:

> > Sorry I took so long to answer this. I was not fired or anything,

but I

> > went to another high school. I live in Maryland (US). I still

stump the

> > kids by mentioning at times that my family are atheists, because the

> kids

> > eyes get real big when they realize there is no Christmas, etc.

It is a

> > learning experience for them to meet someone " different " . Cynthia

> >

> > _____

> >

On

> > Behalf Of DragonSpiritHealer

> > Sunday, August 21, 2005 10:31 PM

> >

> > RE: Heathens

> >

> > Cynthia,

> >

> > I smiled as I read this. Not that it happened, but at your

> question. This

> > teacher thought she was helping you and never would have

considered her

> > question as unwanted, unwelcome, or inappropriate. Yet, you are

> right, had

> > the roles been reversed, you would have been fired, but I expect

she was

> > not. My first question, is did you get let go/fired? My second

> question is

> > where do you live? I wish you well.

> >

> > Blessings,

> >

> > Dragonspirithealer

> >

> > Cynthia Gadarian <cgadarian@a...> wrote:

> >

> > I taught at a high school where mostly everyone was evangelical. NO

> ONE had

> > ever met an atheist. They thought we were just myths.

> >

> > One day, a teacher asked me if she could " lay her hands on my head "

> to cure

> > me of atheism. I politely said, " No, thank you. "

> >

> > Then I realized - if I had offered to lay my hands on someone's head

> to help

> > them become an atheist, I would have been fired in a heartbeat.

> >

> > And the Christians in the US think they are sooo abused..

> >

> > Cynthia

> >

> > _____

> >

On

> > Behalf Of Jonnie Hellens

> > Friday, August 19, 2005 3:32 PM

> >

> > Re: Heathens

> >

> > My MIL flipped her lid one time while I was there. She said some

of her

> > friends have been trying to convert her to Christianity and she's

> seriously

> > offended and discusted about communion. She says her religion closely

> > resembles Budhist, except she believes that when she dies, she's just

> > nothing. I find that disconcerting, the thought of just disappearing!

> >

> > fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote:

> >

> > yeah..i'm so glad we gave all that up and worship a carpenter

who's been

> > dead fer 2000 years, and we eat a cracker and call it his body.....

> >

> > Jonnie Hellens

> > Aug 19, 2005 10:47 AM

> >

> > Re: Heathens

> >

> > Ugh, I miss my mind... Let's see I can remember any.

> >

> > There was one in which an old couple gives their daughter to this

young

> > chap, he then takes over the place, forcing them to move into a

> small hut

> > and hardly giving them any food. The SIL goes hunting each day,

> taking the

> > old man with him to drive the animals thru a gap. The SIL is a good

> shot,

> > but only wounds a buffalo and somehow he ends up with a clot of

> blood from

> > the buffalo, hides it and takes it home. At home he tells his wife

> to boil

> > some water and he dumps in the clot of blood, which turns into a

> baby. Thru

> > a ritual, the baby is an adult by the next day. He gets rid of the

> evil SIL

> > and then turns his attention to other repressed creatures. It was a

> > Blackfoot myth called Blood-Clot. I can't remember it's Native

American

> > name, started with a K, Kutoyis I think.

> >

> > Jo Cwazy <heartwork@c...> wrote:

> >

> > Jonnie

> >

> > Which ones did you think were far-fetched?

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > -

> >

> > Jonnie <jonnie_hellens> Hellens

> >

> > Friday, August 19, 2005 5:06 PM

> >

> > Re: Heathens

> >

> > Yeah, it was a very thought provoking class about world wide

religions.

> > Some of the myths were just too far fetched for me to even imagine.

> I guess

> > that is what faith is.

> >

> > Lynda <lurine@s...> wrote:

> >

> > Oh boy, want to start a real war, call it a book of myths. Which, be

> > definition it is. However, question them calling the beliefs of

others

> > myths, oh, that's different. that's o.k. That's the truth. Blah,

> blah,

> > blah.

> >

> > Lynda

> >

> > -

> >

> > Jonnie <jonnie_hellens> Hellens

> >

> > Thursday, August 18, 2005 4:27 PM

> >

> > Re: Heathens

> >

> > I took a mythology class, based on Joseph Campbell's Hero of a

Thousand

> > faces. He said that the major religions are really the same thing,

> with the

> > characters called by different names. He also said that the religious

> > stories were symbolic of things, not actual events, to help us

> understand

> > what can not be understood. (Them's fightin' words to many people.)

> >

> > fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote:

> >

> > read that way back in the 80's

> >

> > well..nuthin in it can be proven really..lotsa theories and such..

> >

> > tho..i was intrigued at the time with the concept of jesus not being

> > crucified and all that

> >

> > and of course, it all became a best seller last year with the Da Vinci

> > book....

> >

> > peter hurd

> > Aug 18, 2005 1:28 PM

> >

> > Re: Heathens

> >

> > ALLEDGEDLY.......................Read R.S. & The holy Grail, I

> finished it

> > this morning.Shit ending and realy just a time filler rather than

a life

> > changer, but the historical stuff ( if acurate ) is interesting. Now

> I need

> > something else to read, Visited the library lunch time to take

> thebook back

> > and picked up a Tom Holt to read. Hope its good.........any

suggestions?

> > nuthin too heavy for my retarded intellect!

> >

> > The Valley Vegan..........

> > fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote:

> >

> > yeah..they scaled down the backside..carrying off " the treasures " ...

> >

> > peter hurd

> > Aug 18, 2005 11:29 AM

> >

> > Re: Heathens

> >

> > Yes but what conviction, they marched down to the meadow of their own

> > choice, without putting up any sort of fight despite knowing what was

> > waiting for them..........incineration.

> >

> > The holy grail nonsense stems from the story that a couple of them

> climbed

> > over the back wall scaling the cliffs carrying some " sacred holy

> treasure "

> > before they surrendered.

> >

> > Load of twaddle, but interesting twaddle nevertheless!

> >

> > The Valley Vegan.............

> >

> > fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote:

> >

> > and they are linked with the holy grail.....

> >

> > i think it was at montsegur where they were given a chance to

> surrender, but

> > they said " give us a couple days " , and then refused, and in the

> meantime,

> > all the knights who were there with em converted to Catharism

inside the

> > castle and were then all killed with the regular Cathars...man,

> thats gotta

> > be some good PR they were sellin at the last minute

> >

> > " excuse me Sir Rolf, we really appreciate you fighting fer us, and,

> even tho

> > it means yer death tomorrow, would you like to convert? "

> >

> > a blinding flash

> > hotter than the sun

> > dead bodies lie across the path

> > the radiation colors the air

> > finishing one by one

> >

> > Peter H

> >

> > <http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/47.gif>

> >

> > _____

> >

>

<http://us.rd./mail/uk/taglines/default/messenger/*http:/uk.messeng

> > er.> Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling

> >

>

<http://us.rd./mail/uk/taglines/default/messenger/*http:/uk.messeng

> > er.> worldwide with voicemail

> >

> > To send an email to

-

> >

August 29, 2005

Cynthia,

I understand not sharing your faith with your neighbors. I am pagan and used to live in Texas. You must protect yourself and your job options. It would be nice if we could all be open about our faiths, but the time does not seem right for that. We can dream of a safer futher though. If you ever want to chat, please feel free to e-mail me privately.

Blessings Always,

DragonSpiritHealercheer_bears_surprise <ishtar626 wrote:

I went to a catholic middle school because my fathers side of thefamily was catholic. My mother however believes and practices a goodform of voodoo. No she doesnt do voodoo dolls or place evil curses onpeople. But I started to explore my moms side of religion because Iwas interested. Random people, including teachers, started showing upat my house to preach to my mom. Hense why I went to a publichighschool. Unfortunatly it wasnt any better there. My best friend andI were busted smoking on school campus. Neither one of us had arecord. and when they search her backpack they found a book ofshadows, her spell book, and they gave her out of school suspension,where as I only got ISS. There was also a pagan club on campus, thatwas told to disband, they used the excuse that it wasnt a recognizedreligion, where as there was also a

christian club that was allowedto continue. And then was in San Diego California. Now I live inGeorgia, and I am utterly terrified to tell anyone what religion Ipractice because of the fact that its so christian down here. I justwish everyone would respect everyone else's religion choices. , "Cynthia Gadarian" <cgadarian@a...>wrote:> Sorry I took so long to answer this. I was not fired or anything, but I> went to another high school. I live in Maryland (US). I still stump the> kids by mentioning at times that my family are atheists, because thekids> eyes get real big when they realize there is no Christmas, etc. It is a> learning experience for them to meet someone "different". Cynthia> > > > _____ > > On>

Behalf Of DragonSpiritHealer> Sunday, August 21, 2005 10:31 PM> > RE: Heathens> > > > Cynthia,> > > > I smiled as I read this. Not that it happened, but at yourquestion. This> teacher thought she was helping you and never would have considered her> question as unwanted, unwelcome, or inappropriate. Yet, you areright, had> the roles been reversed, you would have been fired, but I expect she was> not. My first question, is did you get let go/fired? My secondquestion is> where do you live? I wish you well.> > > > Blessings,> > Dragonspirithealer> > Cynthia Gadarian <cgadarian@a...> wrote:> > I taught at a high school where mostly everyone was evangelical. NOONE

had> ever met an atheist. They thought we were just myths.> > > > One day, a teacher asked me if she could "lay her hands on my head"to cure> me of atheism. I politely said, "No, thank you."> > > > Then I realized - if I had offered to lay my hands on someone's headto help> them become an atheist, I would have been fired in a heartbeat.> > > > And the Christians in the US think they are sooo abused..> > > > Cynthia> > > > > _____ > > > On> Behalf Of Jonnie Hellens> Friday, August 19, 2005 3:32 PM> > Re: Heathens> > > > My MIL flipped her lid one

time while I was there. She said some of her> friends have been trying to convert her to Christianity and she'sseriously> offended and discusted about communion. She says her religion closely> resembles Budhist, except she believes that when she dies, she's just> nothing. I find that disconcerting, the thought of just disappearing!> > fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote: > > yeah..i'm so glad we gave all that up and worship a carpenter who's been> dead fer 2000 years, and we eat a cracker and call it his body.....> > > > > > Jonnie Hellens > Aug 19, 2005 10:47 AM > > Re: Heathens > > Ugh, I miss my mind... Let's see I can remember any.> > > > There was one in which an old couple gives their

daughter to this young> chap, he then takes over the place, forcing them to move into asmall hut> and hardly giving them any food. The SIL goes hunting each day,taking the> old man with him to drive the animals thru a gap. The SIL is a goodshot,> but only wounds a buffalo and somehow he ends up with a clot ofblood from> the buffalo, hides it and takes it home. At home he tells his wifeto boil> some water and he dumps in the clot of blood, which turns into ababy. Thru> a ritual, the baby is an adult by the next day. He gets rid of theevil SIL> and then turns his attention to other repressed creatures. It was a> Blackfoot myth called Blood-Clot. I can't remember it's Native American> name, started with a K, Kutoyis I think.> > Jo Cwazy <heartwork@c...> wrote:> > Jonnie> > > >

Which ones did you think were far-fetched?> > > > Jo> > - > > Jonnie <jonnie_hellens> Hellens > > > > Friday, August 19, 2005 5:06 PM> > Re: Heathens> > > > Yeah, it was a very thought provoking class about world wide religions.> Some of the myths were just too far fetched for me to even imagine.I guess> that is what faith is.> > > Lynda <lurine@s...> wrote:> > Oh boy, want to start a real war, call it a book of myths. Which, be> definition it is. However, question them calling the beliefs of others> myths, oh, that's different. that's o.k. That's the truth. Blah,blah,> blah.> > > >

Lynda> > - > > Jonnie <jonnie_hellens> Hellens > > > > Thursday, August 18, 2005 4:27 PM> > Re: Heathens> > > > I took a mythology class, based on Joseph Campbell's Hero of a Thousand> faces. He said that the major religions are really the same thing,with the> characters called by different names. He also said that the religious> stories were symbolic of things, not actual events, to help usunderstand> what can not be understood. (Them's fightin' words to many people.) > > fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote: > > read that way back in the 80's> > well..nuthin in it can be proven really..lotsa theories and such..> > tho..i was intrigued at the time

with the concept of jesus not being> crucified and all that> > and of course, it all became a best seller last year with the Da Vinci> book....> > > > peter hurd > Aug 18, 2005 1:28 PM > > Re: Heathens > > ALLEDGEDLY.......................Read R.S. & The holy Grail, Ifinished it> this morning.Shit ending and realy just a time filler rather than a life> changer, but the historical stuff ( if acurate ) is interesting. NowI need> something else to read, Visited the library lunch time to takethebook back> and picked up a Tom Holt to read. Hope its good.........any suggestions?> nuthin too heavy for my retarded intellect!> > > > The Valley Vegan..........> fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote:> >

yeah..they scaled down the backside..carrying off "the treasures"...> > > > peter hurd > Aug 18, 2005 11:29 AM > > Re: Heathens > > > > Yes but what conviction, they marched down to the meadow of their own> choice, without putting up any sort of fight despite knowing what was> waiting for them..........incineration.> > The holy grail nonsense stems from the story that a couple of themclimbed> over the back wall scaling the cliffs carrying some"sacred holytreasure"> before they surrendered.> > Load of twaddle, but interesting twaddle nevertheless!> > > > The Valley Vegan.............> > fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote:> > and they are linked with the holy grail.....> >

> > i think it was at montsegur where they were given a chance tosurrender, but> they said "give us a couple days", and then refused, and in themeantime,> all the knights who were there with em converted to Catharism inside the> castle and were then all killed with the regular Cathars...man,thats gotta> be some good PR they were sellin at the last minute> > "excuse me Sir Rolf, we really appreciate you fighting fer us, and,even tho> it means yer death tomorrow, would you like to convert?"> > a blinding flash > hotter than the sun > dead bodies lie across the path > the radiation colors the air> finishing one by one > > > > Peter H > > <http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/47.gif> > >

> _____ > > > ><http://us.rd./mail/uk/taglines/default/messenger/*http:/uk.messeng> er.> Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling><http://us.rd./mail/uk/taglines/default/messenger/*http:/uk.messeng> er.> worldwide with voicemail > > To send an email to - > > > >

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