Your imput please

[Guest guest]

O.K., one more time. Soleil's first post wasn't very complete and my comments were on that post. She has since clarified and on that clarification, what she said would have made no difference whatsoever.

 

Again, again, again, you have to know your audience.

 

Lynda

 

-

Jo Cwazy

Sunday, August 07, 2005 11:52 AM

Re: Your imput please

 

I think it is fairly obvious that Soliel's friend was not going to try to understand/belief what was said. The 'analogy' was made as a last attempt to make her think about it. It was the end of the line. This is what usually happens.

 

It amazes me how we spend our time trying not to upset people about their animal-eating, and how we try to avoid telling them exactly how badly we think of them for doing so.

 

Jo

 

-

Michael Benis

Sunday, August 07, 2005 6:18 PM

RE: Your imput please

 

<snip>

 

However, on the general point, I see little difference between denying concentration camps in which people were tortured, lived in cramped conditions, used as slave labour, etc. and denying factory farming in which.... to me, it seems a very apt analogy. And, of course there are some minor differences... otherwise it wouldn't be an analogy, it would be a meme!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

I think the friendship was at an end anyway.

 

The point was not how badly we think of them but how we try to avoid hurting their feelings by not telling them badly we think of them.

 

Jo

 

-

Michael Benis

Sunday, August 07, 2005 8:09 PM

RE: Your imput please

 

Still begs the question did the line have to end there... which means continuing to upset them...

 

How badly we think of them? How badly do you think of a zombie in our sleepwalker non-civilisation?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

On Behalf Of Jo Cwazy07 August 2005 19:53 Subject: Re: Your imput please

 

I think it is fairly obvious that Soliel's friend was not going to try to understand/belief what was said. The 'analogy' was made as a last attempt to make her think about it. It was the end of the line. This is what usually happens.

 

It amazes me how we spend our time trying not to upset people about their animal-eating, and how we try to avoid telling them exactly how badly we think of them for doing so.

 

Jo

 

-

Michael Benis

Sunday, August 07, 2005 6:18 PM

RE: Your imput please

 

<snip>

 

However, on the general point, I see little difference between denying concentration camps in which people were tortured, lived in cramped conditions, used as slave labour, etc. and denying factory farming in which.... to me, it seems a very apt analogy. And, of course there are some minor differences... otherwise it wouldn't be an analogy, it would be a meme!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynda

 

> What I think is most interesting is that folks will donate like crazy to this that and the other thing. They'll cry

> crocodile tears and sympathise up the . But heaven forbid that you ever tell them where Hitler got his

> ideas!

 

I'm not sure whether you're referring to one particular source, or just humanity in general, so I may be about to head off on a tangent, but when you look at what Hitler and the Nazi's stood for, it wasn't vastly out of context with much of the rest of the world... just look at some of the groups targeted by the Nazis...

 

Jews - were being actively persecuted in the Soviet Union at the same time, earlier in the century had been the subject of persecution in virtually every European country, and at the time were still often used as a common scape-goat for the world's ills in many countries.

 

Homosexuals - Still actively persecuted in many countries around the world, often by governments (the former Yugoslav states, and the old Soviet Baltic states being particularly notorious). Even where there is supposed to be legal protection, such as the UK and the USA, there is still a vast amount of negative press about homosexuals.

 

Communists - McCarthyism says it all.

 

Gypsies - still actively persecuted by virtually every European society, both in "popular" culture, and by governments and the media.

 

When you look at the history of the 2nd world war, it had absolutely nothing to do with concentration camps, or other Nazi abuses of human rights - it was a direct result of expansionist foreign policy on behalf of the German state. Had Hitler been content to stick within German borders, it would be not inconceivable that Nazi Germany would still be a reality, and an active and highly influential part of world politics. Rather a chilling thought!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Michael

 

> Viva! is one of the most successful campaigning organisation in the

history

> of veganism, and it has done so largely through a combination of

creativity,

> information and humour.... what's more it's done so largely by being

> inclusive, not censorious about vegetarianism, and not drawing strict

> demarcation lines between ovo-lacto and vegans, while nevertheless making

it

> quite clear which way the logic goes on every front (animals, health, the

> environment).

 

Alternatively, PETA is also one of the most successful campaigning

organisations in the history of veganism, and they certainly don't pull

their punches on issues, or on analogies. Both methods are valid, and both

achieve results, but ultimately nothing will change just because of a

" logical " argument. If it did, then no-one would smoke tobacco or drink

alcohol!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike

 

> 1) " There is no well laid plan to exterminate a whole segment of life. "

 

I've asked this about 6 times now, but no-one has yet taken up the

opportunity to answer... what difference does the motivation make to the

individuals who are tortured and killed?

 

> 2) " But, the bottomline is that using inflamatory statements stops all

communication. "

 

As I believe I have already amply demonstrated, making people uncomfortable

is the only way they change their views.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike

 

> Been there, done that and seen the results. I've never cared what others have thought of me, but I have regretted not being more

> persuasive (and less egotistical) for the animals. Effective communication is as much about understanding your audience as your

> subject matter.

 

So, can you name me just one significant change which has been brought about by "persuasiveness" and "effective communication", as opposed to direct action and "uncomfortable" truths?

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

No problem Michael. I asked for everyone's opinion and I shall accept them all. : )

 

Soliel

 

In a message dated 8/7/05 4:41:57 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 23 Sun, 7 Aug 2005 11:24:48 +0100 "Michael Benis" <michael.benisRE: Re: Re: Your imput pleaseI'll also add to this - because this thread's become about the use ofconfrontational analogies in activist discourse, not Soleil's originalonline experience, which was in many ways much more specific - drawing aparallel between her friend claiming that pictures of animal suffering arefake and those of a holocaust-denying person claiming that pictures ofAuschwitz were fake.So, I also hope Soleil doesn't think that all my comments are about here,despite the fact that - as I've said - I think she could have handled thesituation better if she'd wanted to. But then I think we've all had theoccasional conversation to which that applies....:-)CheersMike _____ OnBehalf Of Lynda06 August 2005 22:21 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Your imput pleaseI didn't say that using the word Holocaust *means* Nazi. I said it has thesame effect on conversations as bringing in the comparision to Nazis orHitler.You aren't hearing what I am saying about conversation. And what I wassaying wasn't about you specifically, it was a means of explaining. That'so.k.Lynda- lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Saturday, August 06, 2005 8:23 AM Re: Re: Your imput pleaseLyndaI don't see how using the word Holocaust means Nazi. They are related butdifferent things. Why should the mere mention of Holocaust automatically beoffensive? It is a historical fact, it happened. Just by mentioning it Iam not calling anyone a Nazi per se.As for your other reasoning...I do drive a car (have to where I am or I havelittle life)...but I DON'T DENY global warming or the negative effects ofcars. I also don't deny, and have voiced my opinion to my representatives alot, the negative effects on labor for globalization even though I havepurchased items from China (impossible to avoid these days, really).The difference between my friend and me is that I don't deny the effects ofmy actions where she did. I may not do everything perfect, but I do try tomake a difference, where she spends her energy denying everything so shedoesn't have to do a thing.Just because one's life is not perfectly green does not make them ahypocrite. If the sincerity is there and they are doing their best, thenthey are not a hypocrite.Soliel[This message contained attachments]

 

 

[Guest guest]

No it isn't and you haven't demonstrated that as the only way. You haven't

answered the question about slavery which was part and parcel of your

" demonstration. "

 

And, PETA has accomplished what? They have made themselves lots of money

and they don't put their money where their mouth is, ya know, walk the walk

or they wouldn't spend time and money on euthenizing pets.

 

Raising hell may have gotten the vote but women didn't really get the vote

and there is no equality. Raising hell may have brought about prohibition

but it didn't last and created more problems than it cured.

 

The Immancipation Proclamation may have *supposedly " ended slavery but it

didn't and discrimination still hasn't stopped and the change is mostly

surface.

 

WWII may have stopped Hitler but it hasn't stopped the killing. The change

is now the money is going to Sharron and crew and they are doing the killing

not the ones being killed. Genocide simply shifted sides.

 

No kill shelters have come about because, in the majority at least here, we

tugged at heart strings and made people cry, we didn't attack them. It is

how we get the $$ to support the shelters.

 

Again, one needs to know their audience.

 

Lynda, remembering the impatience of youth.

-

" Peter " <metalscarab

 

Sunday, August 07, 2005 2:03 PM

Re: Your imput please

 

 

> Hi Mike

>

> > 1) " There is no well laid plan to exterminate a whole segment of life. "

>

> I've asked this about 6 times now, but no-one has yet taken up the

> opportunity to answer... what difference does the motivation make to the

> individuals who are tortured and killed?

>

> > 2) " But, the bottomline is that using inflamatory statements stops all

> communication. "

>

> As I believe I have already amply demonstrated, making people

uncomfortable

> is the only way they change their views.

>

> BB

> Peter

>

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

Peter, there are "uncomfortable truths" and there are "uncomfortable truths."

 

In your face, you are stupid, this is all your fault, you dumb south end of a donkey is one type of "uncomfortable truth." The other type of "uncomfortable truth" is what we used to get our no-kill shelters funded and to get food and vet help for our rescues, "OMG, look at that poor puppy. How could anyone (implied not you, those other nasty people that you dislike as much as we do cause you're a good guy) do such a thing to a poor defenseless furbaby. We showed the inside of the chambers, we showed the stacks of dead bodies gathering flies. We got the big bucks and got rid of the euthenasia chambers.

 

If it wasn't for a mole, we would have won the war at Alcatraz and it wasn't in your face, it was "you understand and we all can get along."

 

Lynda

 

-

Peter

Sunday, August 07, 2005 2:07 PM

Re: Your imput please

 

Hi Mike

 

> Been there, done that and seen the results. I've never cared what others have thought of me, but I have regretted not being more

> persuasive (and less egotistical) for the animals. Effective communication is as much about understanding your audience as your

> subject matter.

 

So, can you name me just one significant change which has been brought about by "persuasiveness" and "effective communication", as opposed to direct action and "uncomfortable" truths?

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Lynda

 

> Ya know, I am going to somewhat change the direction of this conversation

> because I'm not sure if folks from the two sides of the " pond " view the

> history of slavery the same, nor the ending of slavery.

 

Slavery ended differently in every country... but in no country was it ended

by talking nicely about the possibility - in all cases it was ended after

continued confrontational struggle.

 

> Are you talking about how slavery ended in Europe or how slavery ended in

> the U.S. If you are talking about how slavery ended in the U.S., then I

> strongly recommend that you read " Lies My Teacher Told Me " because what

> you've been taught isn't the reality. The reality is that slavery didn't

> end because of the squeeky wheel. The civil war was NOT about slavery but

> rather about control. Slavery was an easy banner to carry that folks

could

> get behind. Further, slavery in the U.S. did NOT end until decades after

> the Civil War. The Immancipation Proclamation and the resulting Amendment

> to the Constitution did NOT end slavery. They only ended slavery for

those

> with a certain skin color.

 

I know that the US Civil War had little to do with slavery - it's quite

noticable in history that people tend to have far less clouded views of

countries that they don't live in, largely because they aren't " educated "

with the nationalist attitude of that country's teachers. I haven't

personally researched US slavery in any depth, so don't know exact

details... but I do know that the slave owners didn't suddenly think " oh,

let's be nice today and free all our slaves " . In the UK, " slavery " , which we

called " serfdom " was ended after a series of very violent struggles, such

things as the Peasants' Revolt, etc. Same is true in Russia.

 

> Now, on to the rest of your post. I was picketing the steps of the

capital

> when I was 5. I was a very active member of the folks at People's Park in

> the 60s, at Alcatraz and have gotten laws stopped and legislators tossed

out

> on their collective arses.

 

That's very nice, but I fail to see what relevance that has to the

conversation at hand - we are discussing what achieves results and what

doesn't. You seem to be saying that you have achieved results with direct

action, which is actually supporting the view that you were previously

arguing against.

 

> AGAIN, know your audience. If you don't make the effort to know your

> audience then you will accomplish nothing!

 

I find it beautifully ironic that you keep making this statement, and yet

are demonstrating a distinct ignorance of a vegan audience with just about

every post!

 

Peter

[Guest guest]

Lynda

 

> No it isn't and you haven't demonstrated that as the only way. You

haven't

> answered the question about slavery which was part and parcel of your

> " demonstration. "

 

Yep - in the last post I did.

 

You still haven't given a single incident of when " speaking nicely " achieved

change.

 

> And, PETA has accomplished what?

 

Well... let's see... the removal of vast amount of funds from HLS by the

continued letter-writing campaigns to their funders (almost resulting in its

closure a couple of years ago until the government stepped in), the changes

in the UK laws regarding cosmetics testing (admittedly a long way to go

still, but it's a start).... just sign up to get their magazine (don't

worry, you don't have to give them any money) - every month they have an

update of their successful campaigns - it's usually two or three a month. As

opposed to Viva who give a lot of information, and really challenge people's

comfort zones by showing some pretty horrific " in your face " videos.

Incidentally, I live about 2 miles from Viva's HQ, and know a large number

of people who work for them - they are hardly the sort to " talk nicely " , but

really do challenge people to think through all sorts of unpleasant

analogies... including holocaust analogies.

 

> Raising hell may have gotten the vote but women didn't really get the vote

> and there is no equality.

 

Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every other Western

country.

 

I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement actively

campaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact that

women have the vote!

 

> WWII may have stopped Hitler but it hasn't stopped the killing. The

change

> is now the money is going to Sharron and crew and they are doing the

killing

> not the ones being killed. Genocide simply shifted sides.

 

World War II had nothing whatsoever to do with the issues of " genocide " , or

concentration camps. The war was a response to the expansionist policies of

Nazi Germany - the concentration camps and persecution had been around long

before the war started. But I've already detailed this in an earlier post.

Incidentally, we seem, once again, to be wandering off the point - wars are

about governments deciding they dislike other governments, and having

nothing whatsoever to do with bringing about change - they just sustain the

current situation.

 

> No kill shelters have come about because, in the majority at least here,

we

> tugged at heart strings and made people cry, we didn't attack them. It is

> how we get the $$ to support the shelters.

 

Hang on... you MADE PEOPLE CRY... and you don't think that's

confrontational, or pulling people out of their comfort zones? Then what the

heck is it?

 

Peter

[Guest guest]

Lynda

 

> In your face, you are stupid, this is all your fault, you dumb south end of a donkey is one type of "uncomfortable truth."

 

That is not truth, that is opinion.

 

> The other type of "uncomfortable truth" is what we used to get our no-kill shelters funded and to get food and vet help for our

> rescues, "OMG, look at that poor puppy. How could anyone (implied not you, those other nasty people that you dislike as much

> as we do cause you're a good guy) do such a thing to a poor defenseless furbaby. We showed the inside of the chambers, we

> showed the stacks of dead bodies gathering flies. We got the big bucks and got rid of the euthenasia chambers.

 

Let's just try to remember what we were originally talking about here... that is, the analogies of Nazis and holocaust to animal rights issues. What you have described above is a classic image of bodies at Auschwitz and other concentration camps. You showed images, others use words to portray those images. The image which is created in the mind of the individual is the same. Both challenge the comfort zones of individuals. You would not have raised anywhere near as much if you'd just said to people "hey, did you know dogs get put to sleep in these shelters? Oh, sorry to bother you, I didn't mean to upset you, please give it no more thought". You seem to be amply demonstrating the point that you are trying to argue against.

 

> If it wasn't for a mole, we would have won the war at Alcatraz and it wasn't in your face, it was "you understand and we all can get

> along."

 

I have no idea what you are talking about here. The only Alcatraz I'm aware of is either the prison (about which I know virtually nothing), or the rock group.

 

Peter

[Guest guest]

"Jews - were being actively persecuted in the Soviet Union at the same time"

 

Actually, wasn't Stalin responsible for as many deaths, if not more, than Hitler?

 

"Gypsies - still actively persecuted by virtually every European society, both in "popular" culture, and by governments and the media."

 

There aren't many places I know of in the U.S. where there are large groups of Gypsies, but where there are, they face persecution, too. The Calderash in Spokane, WA are constantly being harassed by the police.

 

Love,

Anna

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Peter

 

8/7/2005 3:11:14 PM

Re: Re: Your imput please

 

Hi Lynda

 

> What I think is most interesting is that folks will donate like crazy to this that and the other thing. They'll cry

> crocodile tears and sympathise up the . But heaven forbid that you ever tell them where Hitler got his

> ideas!

 

I'm not sure whether you're referring to one particular source, or just humanity in general, so I may be about to head off on a tangent, but when you look at what Hitler and the Nazi's stood for, it wasn't vastly out of context with much of the rest of the world... just look at some of the groups targeted by the Nazis...

 

Jews - were being actively persecuted in the Soviet Union at the same time, earlier in the century had been the subject of persecution in virtually every European country, and at the time were still often used as a common scape-goat for the world's ills in many countries.

 

Homosexuals - Still actively persecuted in many countries around the world, often by governments (the former Yugoslav states, and the old Soviet Baltic states being particularly notorious). Even where there is supposed to be legal protection, such as the UK and the USA, there is still a vast amount of negative press about homosexuals.

 

Communists - McCarthyism says it all.

 

Gypsies - still actively persecuted by virtually every European society, both in "popular" culture, and by governments and the media.

 

When you look at the history of the 2nd world war, it had absolutely nothing to do with concentration camps, or other Nazi abuses of human rights - it was a direct result of expansionist foreign policy on behalf of the German state. Had Hitler been content to stick within German borders, it would be not inconceivable that Nazi Germany would still be a reality, and an active and highly influential part of world politics. Rather a chilling thought!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Not surprising when you think of SEVENTY-TWO murders in one year not being investigated. Oh, silly me, the Feds put the Goon Squad in control. They wouldn't investigate their own.

 

If you are a minority in the U.S. you really are a second class citizen and are so treated by the cops!

 

Lynda

 

-

Anna Blaine

Sunday, August 07, 2005 8:40 PM

Re: Re: Your imput please

 

"Jews - were being actively persecuted in the Soviet Union at the same time"

 

Actually, wasn't Stalin responsible for as many deaths, if not more, than Hitler?

 

"Gypsies - still actively persecuted by virtually every European society, both in "popular" culture, and by governments and the media."

 

There aren't many places I know of in the U.S. where there are large groups of Gypsies, but where there are, they face persecution, too. The Calderash in Spokane, WA are constantly being harassed by the police.

 

Love,

Anna

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Peter

 

8/7/2005 3:11:14 PM

Re: Re: Your imput please

 

Hi Lynda

 

> What I think is most interesting is that folks will donate like crazy to this that and the other thing. They'll cry

> crocodile tears and sympathise up the . But heaven forbid that you ever tell them where Hitler got his

> ideas!

 

I'm not sure whether you're referring to one particular source, or just humanity in general, so I may be about to head off on a tangent, but when you look at what Hitler and the Nazi's stood for, it wasn't vastly out of context with much of the rest of the world... just look at some of the groups targeted by the Nazis...

 

Jews - were being actively persecuted in the Soviet Union at the same time, earlier in the century had been the subject of persecution in virtually every European country, and at the time were still often used as a common scape-goat for the world's ills in many countries.

 

Homosexuals - Still actively persecuted in many countries around the world, often by governments (the former Yugoslav states, and the old Soviet Baltic states being particularly notorious). Even where there is supposed to be legal protection, such as the UK and the USA, there is still a vast amount of negative press about homosexuals.

 

Communists - McCarthyism says it all.

 

Gypsies - still actively persecuted by virtually every European society, both in "popular" culture, and by governments and the media.

 

When you look at the history of the 2nd world war, it had absolutely nothing to do with concentration camps, or other Nazi abuses of human rights - it was a direct result of expansionist foreign policy on behalf of the German state. Had Hitler been content to stick within German borders, it would be not inconceivable that Nazi Germany would still be a reality, and an active and highly influential part of world politics. Rather a chilling thought!

 

BB

Peter

 

 

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release 8/4/05

 

 

 

 

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release 8/4/05

[Guest guest]

, " Lynda " <lurine@s...> wrote:

> Raising hell may have gotten the vote but women didn't really get

the vote

> and there is no equality. Raising hell may have brought about

prohibition

> but it didn't last and created more problems than it cured.

 

?

 

JO

[Guest guest]

They do here in the UK. The councils were supposed to provide a

space for them to make temporary stays, and just about none did. If

they buy land they are not allowed to stay long on it. The media

nearly always gives them a bad press.

 

Jo

 

, " Anna Blaine " <anna333@e...> wrote:

> " Jews - were being actively persecuted in the Soviet Union at the

same time "

>

> Actually, wasn't Stalin responsible for as many deaths, if not

more, than Hitler?

>

> " Gypsies - still actively persecuted by virtually every European

society, both in " popular " culture, and by governments and the media. "

>

> There aren't many places I know of in the U.S. where there are

large groups of Gypsies, but where there are, they face persecution,

too. The Calderash in Spokane, WA are constantly being harassed by

the police.

>

> Love,

> Anna

>

>

>

>

> -

> Peter

>

> 8/7/2005 3:11:14 PM

> Re: Re: Your imput please

>

>

> Hi Lynda

>

> > What I think is most interesting is that folks will donate like

crazy to this that and the other thing. They'll cry

> > crocodile tears and sympathise up the . But heaven forbid

that you ever tell them where Hitler got his

> > ideas!

>

> I'm not sure whether you're referring to one particular source, or

just humanity in general, so I may be about to head off on a tangent,

but when you look at what Hitler and the Nazi's stood for, it wasn't

vastly out of context with much of the rest of the world... just look

at some of the groups targeted by the Nazis...

>

> Jews - were being actively persecuted in the Soviet Union at the

same time, earlier in the century had been the subject of persecution

in virtually every European country, and at the time were still often

used as a common scape-goat for the world's ills in many countries.

>

> Homosexuals - Still actively persecuted in many countries around

the world, often by governments (the former Yugoslav states, and the

old Soviet Baltic states being particularly notorious). Even where

there is supposed to be legal protection, such as the UK and the USA,

there is still a vast amount of negative press about homosexuals.

>

> Communists - McCarthyism says it all.

>

> Gypsies - still actively persecuted by virtually every European

society, both in " popular " culture, and by governments and the media.

>

> When you look at the history of the 2nd world war, it had

absolutely nothing to do with concentration camps, or other Nazi

abuses of human rights - it was a direct result of expansionist

foreign policy on behalf of the German state. Had Hitler been content

to stick within German borders, it would be not inconceivable that

Nazi Germany would still be a reality, and an active and highly

influential part of world politics. Rather a chilling thought!

>

> BB

> Peter

>

>

> To send an email to -

 

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks!

 

 

On Behalf Of lv2breatheSent: 08 August 2005 02:49 Cc: Lv2breatheSubject: Re:Your imput please

 

 

No problem Michael. I asked for everyone's opinion and I shall accept them all. : )

 

Soliel

 

In a message dated 8/7/05 4:41:57 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 23 Sun, 7 Aug 2005 11:24:48 +0100 "Michael Benis" <michael.benisRE: Re: Re: Your imput pleaseI'll also add to this - because this thread's become about the use ofconfrontational analogies in activist discourse, not Soleil's originalonline experience, which was in many ways much more specific - drawing aparallel between her friend claiming that pictures of animal suffering arefake and those of a holocaust-denying person claiming that pictures ofAuschwitz were fake.So, I also hope Soleil doesn't think that all my comments are about here,despite the fact that - as I've said - I think she could have handled thesituation better if she'd wanted to. But then I think we've all had theoccasional conversation to which that applies....:-)CheersMike _____ OnBehalf Of Lynda06 August 2005 22:21 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Your imput pleaseI didn't say that using the word Holocaust *means* Nazi. I said it has thesame effect on conversations as bringing in the comparision to Nazis orHitler.You aren't hearing what I am saying about conversation. And what I wassaying wasn't about you specifically, it was a means of explaining. That'so.k.Lynda- lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Saturday, August 06, 2005 8:23 AM Re: Re: Your imput pleaseLyndaI don't see how using the word Holocaust means Nazi. They are related butdifferent things. Why should the mere mention of Holocaust automatically beoffensive? It is a historical fact, it happened. Just by mentioning it Iam not calling anyone a Nazi per se.As for your other reasoning...I do drive a car (have to where I am or I havelittle life)...but I DON'T DENY global warming or the negative effects ofcars. I also don't deny, and have voiced my opinion to my representatives alot, the negative effects on labor for globalization even though I havepurchased items from China (impossible to avoid these days, really).The difference between my friend and me is that I don't deny the effects ofmy actions where she did. I may not do everything perfect, but I do try tomake a difference, where she spends her energy denying everything so shedoesn't have to do a thing.Just because one's life is not perfectly green does not make them ahypocrite. If the sincerity is there and they are doing their best, thenthey are not a hypocrite.Soliel[This message contained attachments]

 

 

[Guest guest]

We're going round in circles, Peter, but I'm happy to answer your questions:

 

->>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

> 1) " There is no well laid plan to exterminate a whole segment of life. "

 

I've asked this about 6 times now, but no-one has yet taken up the

opportunity to answer... what difference does the motivation make to the

individuals who are tortured and killed?

 

It makes no difference to them at all.

 

> 2) " But, the bottomline is that using inflamatory statements stops all

communication. "

 

As I believe I have already amply demonstrated, making people uncomfortable

is the only way they change their views.

 

>>>

 

We're agreed on that. What we do not agree on is the most effective way of

making them uncomfortable. I believe we can be more effective by making them

share our discomfort than by throwing it at them. We agree, for example, on

the value of the Viva! photos and videos. That is effective discomfort if

you ask me, in a way that comparing the gas camps and slaughterhouses is

generally unlikely to be.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Guest guest]

Hi Jo,

 

Very well put! I am somewhat the same way. Even some of my oldest

and closest friends I am in contact with and know I could call on

them in trouble (and vice versa), there are not many I could really

talk to that understand.

 

I use to think it was sad on my part that I could open up to some of

you more than I could to some of my closest friends. Now I find that

I am lucky in that I have you to relate to and talk with. No matter

that you are not located down the block.

 

BB

Nikki

 

, " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote:

> I think sometimes we have friends for quite a while before we find

out that there is not much we have in common, and several areas of

friction. I've always thought that it's not worthing having any

friends who cause you to feel miserable, or offended or anything

other than good about who you are and what you do. Of course, that

could be why I have loads and loads of friendly acquaintances and no

real friends other than Colin.

>

> It's just a matter of deciding how important a friend is to you,

and whether you are actually important to them. Sometimes people

just use you without giving back, and then it's best to call it a

day.

>

> BB

> Jo

[Guest guest]

They also disappoint me...

 

Nikki

 

 

, fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote:

> and slavs in general, and homosexuals and communists and and and

and....

 

humans scare me.....

 

 

Jo Cwazy

Aug 6, 2005 9:25 AM

 

Re: Re: Your imput please

 

 

HI Anna

 

That is interesting. There were also a lot of Polish people killed -

these too tend to be forgotten when talking about the holocaust.

 

Jo

[Guest guest]

i assume she is talkin about the AIM(american indian movement) takeover of alcatraz island(the old site of the prison) from 1969 to..umm..1971 i think...

i thought it more er less ended after the fires tho.... Peter Aug 7, 2005 5:20 PM Re: Your imput please

 

 

 

> If it wasn't for a mole, we would have won the war at Alcatraz and it wasn't in your face, it was "you understand and we all can get

> along."

 

I have no idea what you are talking about here. The only Alcatraz I'm aware of is either the prison (about which I know virtually nothing), or the rock group.

 

Peter

To send an email to -

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Anna

 

> Actually, wasn't Stalin responsible for as many deaths, if not more, than Hitler?

 

Yep - he was. I believe he had about 2 million more to his name... from the man who said "One death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic"!

 

> There aren't many places I know of in the U.S. where there are large groups of Gypsies, but where there are, they face

> persecution, too. The Calderash in Spokane, WA are constantly being harassed by the police.

 

It doesn't surprise me based on the anti-Gypsy propaganda we get in the UK! It's strange that the world decided that persecution of one group targeted by Nazi's was suddenly unacceptable, but virtually all the others it still seems to be "OK" as far as the media is concerned.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Yup. The fires and then the murder of a 13 year old child! The heart went out of those that were there and the media jumped to the other side of the fence and refused to listen to any evidence that a mole had been planted and had set the fires to turn public opinion against the people on the island. Worked real well.

 

And if you think that is only a rare incident, think again because it isn't only places like Russia where those who disagree die. The father of that girl was murdered and the family of the other leader were killed in an arson fire after he was warned to shut up and instead went ahead and went to another rally.

 

Lynda

 

-

fraggle

Monday, August 08, 2005 7:54 AM

Re: Your imput please

 

i assume she is talkin about the AIM(american indian movement) takeover of alcatraz island(the old site of the prison) from 1969 to..umm..1971 i think...

i thought it more er less ended after the fires tho.... Peter Aug 7, 2005 5:20 PM Re: Your imput please

 

 

 

> If it wasn't for a mole, we would have won the war at Alcatraz and it wasn't in your face, it was "you understand and we all can get

> along."

 

I have no idea what you are talking about here. The only Alcatraz I'm aware of is either the prison (about which I know virtually nothing), or the rock group.

 

Peter

To send an email to -

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Fraggle / Lynda

 

> i assume she is talkin about the AIM(american indian movement) takeover of alcatraz island(the old site of the prison) from

> 1969 to..umm..1971 i think...

> i thought it more er less ended after the fires tho....

 

This all sounds thoroughly intriguing... any chance of either more detail, or some suggested reading??

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

http://members.aol.com/Nowacumig/aim.html

 

http://www.freepeltier.org/peltier11.htm

 

http://siouxme.com/lodge/alcatraz_np.html

 

http://siouxme.com/lodge/trudell.html

 

The above links will give you a general idea. Along with that, I have clipped the following. Richard Oakes had more charisma than any 10 politicians at the time. Washington was scared spitless of his abilities. At Alcatraz, his daughter "fell" and was killed. That didn't stop Richard. Then the fires occured which effectively shut down Alcatraz. It didn't stop Richard. The following year:

 

"September 21, 1972 - Richard Oakes dies of a gunshot wound in northern California at the age of 30. His killer, Michael Morgan, claims that Oakes had ambushed him. Although there is no evidence of a struggle, Morgan's attorneys argue self-defense before a jury of non-Native citizens. First Morgan is charged with murder then the charge is changed to involuntary manslaughter. In the end Morgan is freed, outraging the Indian community."

Now, Morgan was not just some innocent that somehow got involved. What I find interesting is that all references to his history have "disappeared" from the net. Five years ago you could find out all about him and his violent history and association with some of the goon squad. Now you can't find anything about him.

 

Lynda

 

-

Peter

Monday, August 08, 2005 10:32 AM

Re: Your imput please

 

Hi Fraggle / Lynda

 

> i assume she is talkin about the AIM(american indian movement) takeover of alcatraz island(the old site of the prison) from

> 1969 to..umm..1971 i think...

> i thought it more er less ended after the fires tho....

 

This all sounds thoroughly intriguing... any chance of either more detail, or some suggested reading??

 

BB

Peter