Your imput please

[Guest guest]

Hello vegan chat folks.

 

I want your imput.

 

I had an online friend who is Jewish. She lives in NYC and is a corporate lawyer.We are very different but we chat because we have a couple of things in common.

 

One time we got on the subject of meat. I told her about the suffering of food animals and I showed her pictures online of the horrific conditions for the animals who are raised for meat. I also told her of several films made of the subject.

 

She said she doesn't believe what she sees because the photos AND film could be fake. And she gave me a laundry list defending the other side a) animal agriculture is necessary for our economy b) the suffering only happens in a few places c) it isn't really suffering, it just seems like it d) the photos and films could very well be fake and e) what would we do with all the animals if we didn't eat them?

 

At the time I was appalled by her answers. I never came across someone who denied that much.

 

Later on, I told her that I thought her denial is not unlike the denial of those who say the Holocaust never happened. I told her I thought it was the same attitude, the same mechanism.

 

*****

 

What do you think of what I said? Do you think I went over the line?

 

I wasn't trying to say anything bad about Jews at all. I have neutral feelings towards Jews. I am just tired of groups who have grievances caring only about their grievances and no one else's.

 

And I was sickened, on behalf of the 9 BILLION animals who suffer and die in this country for meat...I was sickened that it was completely ignored.

 

Also, my comment came after a low in our relationship. For some reason, in the past few weeks, she grew more and more critical of me. And out came my feelings on her denying the truth.

 

Your thoughts are appreciated.

 

Soliel

[Guest guest]

Just to say my two cents....I am not a militant vegan.

 

I don't talk about it much unless someone says something particularly ignorant. I allow others to be who they choose to be. I interact with and like many non-vegans. I don't separate myself from non-vegans. I understand that most everybody is a mixture of values and it's best to tolerate and understand more than anything else.

 

Thanks for your input...I would have added the following:

 

I would've have said that animal agriculture is a big part of our economy but that doesn't make it right. Crime maybe a big part of the economy does that mean we keep it? If people shifted to other foods to get their protein, animal agriculture would be phased out and other factories would be built where these people could work. The economy would pretty much shift over to a humane industry.

 

I don't think extreme suffering is just in a few places...I think it is rampant. Any animal that has to face slaughter is feeling extreme suffering. Ditto for the chickens that are cooped up and can't move for months or years at a time. To me, getting your beaks cut off at an early age and eyes gouged because of cannibalism is extreme suffering. I can't fathom what someone would say is not extreme in factory farms...it's all extreme from what I can tell. Are you saying that "mild" suffering is OK? And what is an example of this "mild" suffering?

 

And what do you mean a lot of photos have been fake? I have never heard that ever. Why would activists waste their time making fake photos when they don't need to and if they were caught their whole integrity would be lost?

 

I appreciate you thinking of all these answers...but to tell you the truth, my friend wouldn't have listened. She was incapable of "hearing" anything. I could tell her until I am blue in the face and she would not have budged. She was not open minded. She did not want to hear it. And I only gave the truth when I absolutely had to...after she said things that just were not true.

 

And if you think I was being "militant", what about her views? I feel her views are extreme...in extreme denial. I tolerated, was very patient, for a long time. Even after she spewed her ignorance and her unwillingness to hear anything else. If anything, I was very tolerant of her while she was very intolerant of the truth.

 

Soliel

 

 

In a message dated 8/4/05 11:32:30 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 1 Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:01:10 -0700 "Lynda" <lurineRe: Your imput pleaseAnd that's precisely how folks loose their audience. That is no different than using the Nazi comments if one can't win an argument.I've said it before and I'll say it again. Militant vegans or those who aren't familiar with successful debate tactics are veganisms worst enemy!Now, had it been me, I would have said the following to her arguments:>She said she doesn't believe what she sees because the photos AND film could be fake. ***This is true and that's what I thought myself when I first saw them. I can understand how people would wish it to be faked. It is really hard to look at things like this.>And she gave me a laundry list defending the other side a) animal agriculture is necessary for our economy***Agriculture is necessary for our economy to a degree but not animal agriculture. In actuality, factory farms in particular, are ruining the economy and th environment. They come in and put people out of business and are killing the small family farms. They are costing taxpayers millions of dollars in the damage they do by dumping or leaching wastes into rivers and water sources. Your taxdollars are going to million dollars special uses just for these factory farms. That doesn't help the economy.>b) the suffering only happens in a few places ***Well, that is like saying that there are acceptable collateral damages. Who gets to decide it who is an "acceptable collateral damage?" And, while extreme suffering might occur in only a few places, suffering does occur to some degree in all slaughter houses.>c) it isn't really suffering, it just seems like it ***No, that isn't correct. It really is suffering in one form or another. One isn't capable of judging such a thing unless one has personally been there and seen what is happening. Have you been to a slaughter house?>d) the photos and films could very well be fake***Yes, and a alot of them have been. However, that doesn't taint the ones that are the real deal and doesn't make the ones that are factual any less real.> and e) what would we do with all the animals if we didn't eat them?***Let nature take its coarse. Without breeding and daily/weekly/monthly vet care, they will gradually die a natural death over a 5 to 20 year span. It is only with human intervention that these breeds exist at all and without human intervention they will cease to exist by natural means.Lynda - fraggle Thursday, August 04, 2005 7:12 AM Re: Your imput please i definately would have it compared it to those who deny the holocaust.... Hello vegan chat folks. She said she doesn't believe what she sees because the photos AND film could be fake. And she gave me a laundry list defending the other side a) animal agriculture is necessary for our economy b) the suffering only happens in a few places c) it isn't really suffering, it just seems like it d) the photos and films could very well be fake and e) what would we do with all the animals if we didn't eat them? At the time I was appalled by her answers. I never came across someone who denied that much. Later on, I told her that I thought her denial is not unlike the denial of those who say the Holocaust never happened. I told her I thought it was the same attitude, the same mechanism. ***** What do you think of what I said? Do you think I went over the line? I wasn't trying to say anything bad about Jews at all. I have neutral feelings towards Jews. I am just tired of groups who have grievances caring only about their grievances and no one else's. And I was sickened, on behalf of the 9 BILLION animals who suffer and die in this country for meat...I was sickened that it was completely ignored. Also, my comment came after a low in our relationship. For some reason, in the past few weeks, she grew more and more critical of me. And out came my feelings on her denying the truth. Your thoughts are appreciated. Soliel

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynda

 

> And that's precisely how folks loose their audience. That is no different than using the Nazi comments if one

> can't win an argument.

 

The truth is the truth - winning an argument with people like that is a forlorn hope anyway, so you may as well tell them the truth and give them something to think about.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

> I would've have said that animal agriculture is a big part of our economy but that doesn't make it right.Slavery was a big part of the economy (probably the biggest) until it was abolished! Some of the major slavery cartels still exist in more modern forms... such as HSBC bank.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Perhaps but I'd rather give them something to think about instead of something to arm them in their arguments. Using the "H" word gives them ammo. I choose to use reason.

 

Against corporations or the government I use any weapon available, however!

 

Lynda

 

-

Peter

Thursday, August 04, 2005 2:26 PM

Re: Your imput please

 

Hi Lynda

 

> And that's precisely how folks loose their audience. That is no different than using the Nazi comments if one

> can't win an argument.

 

The truth is the truth - winning an argument with people like that is a forlorn hope anyway, so you may as well tell them the truth and give them something to think about.

 

BB

Peter

 

 

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.0 - Release 8/3/05

 

 

 

 

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.0 - Release 8/3/05

[Guest guest]

Are you agreeing or arguing against what I said?

 

Lynda

 

-

Peter

Thursday, August 04, 2005 2:33 PM

Re: Re: Your imput please

 

> I would've have said that animal agriculture is a big part of our economy but that doesn't make it right.Slavery was a big part of the economy (probably the biggest) until it was abolished! Some of the major slavery cartels still exist in more modern forms... such as HSBC bank.

 

BB

Peter

 

 

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.0 - Release 8/3/05

 

 

 

 

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.0 - Release 8/3/05

[Guest guest]

I agree with that. Most people already know that it is not nice to

eat other beings and just don't care. There is nothing wrong with

them being told the truth - it may just sit in the back of their

consciousness mouldering away.

 

Jo

 

, " Peter " <metalscarab@c...> wrote:

> Hi Lynda

>

> > And that's precisely how folks loose their audience. That is no

different than using the Nazi comments if one

> > can't win an argument.

>

> The truth is the truth - winning an argument with people like that

is a forlorn hope anyway, so you may as well tell them the truth and

give them something to think about.

>

> BB

> Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynda

 

> Perhaps but I'd rather give them something to think about instead of

> something to arm them in their arguments. Using the " H " word gives them

> ammo. I choose to use reason.

 

So, you see telling the truth as unreasonable?

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

I snipped out most of the message just to make it shorter for those

on digest.

 

Lynda, I really like your statements here. They are well thought out

and very well put.

 

But I understand completely what Soliel was trying to say. She was

trying very hard to convey the message in a way that her friend

would understand it. And what she said was true. There are many who

deny that the Holocaust ever happened. It definately fit the

discussion.

 

Honestly, this is something I might have said myself. I would have

regretted saying it because I do not like to fire that way, but I

can't say I would have been as good as you in judgement in the heat

of the moment.

 

Personally what I would do at this point is apologize for the

statement because though true, it is harsh. Even though that may

have been what it took to open your friends eyes.

 

Let your friend know you did not mean to hurt her in defense, but

you hope she understands that this is exactly what she was doing to

you. She was taking your beliefs and studies and acting as if they

meant nothing.

 

And then agree to either talk openly and learn about it together or

to leave the discussion alone and respect each others decisions.

 

Of course, that's pretty easy for me to say not being in your

position!

 

Either way and no matter what happens, good luck! If you are truly

friends you will find the path back to your friendship. And if your

friend is not willing to accept these decisions, perhaps it is

better left alone.

 

Nikki

 

 

, " Lynda " <lurine@s...> wrote:

> And that's precisely how folks loose their audience. That is no

different than using the Nazi comments if one can't win an argument.

>

> I've said it before and I'll say it again. Militant vegans or

those who aren't familiar with successful debate tactics are

veganisms worst enemy!

>

> Now, had it been me, I would have said the following to her

arguments:

>

<<SNIP>>

[Guest guest]

I appreciate your thoughts.

 

I can honestly say I don't feel bad about the comment. Why? Because my comment had no intention of insulting her or her religion. Yes, I was angry but I said it with no malice whatsoever. I have no animosity towards Judaism or Jewish people at all.

 

I admit to feeling angry, though, about her thoughtlessness towards this issue. But I have been patient for a long time about it. I've been patient for months. I have been more patient with her than she has been with me to tell you the truth.

 

I do feel bad about the demise of our relationship but I feel it was out of my control. For a while now she has been criticizing me over my Buddhism and other personal stuff that was way out of line.

 

What I have learned, however, is that bringing up this issue it will probably not be understood. Many who have suffered will not see similarities with other groups, including the animal situation as it is today.

 

Soliel

 

In a message dated 8/5/05 10:24:47 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 16 Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:59:07 +0100 "Michael Benis" <michael.benisRE: Your imput pleaseWell, you know the answer, really, don't you Soleil, otherwise you wouldn'thave posted. You feel bad about it. Your online friend feels bad about. Youcould have expressed yourself better..... The analogy holds in some ways,but not all, and the differences are important.That said you and hopefully your friend are still alive, so there's anopportunity to discuss how you felt and how she feels and to apologise ifany offence was caused.That's my tuppence worth...Michael

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Jo.

 

I honestly don't know how much better I could have been. I put up with her spewing untruths for a long time. I felt I did pretty good considering what she said and how long I tolerated it.

 

Soliel

 

In a message dated 8/5/05 10:24:47 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 21 Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:38:12 +0100 "Jo Cwazy" <heartworkRe: Your imput pleaseHow better?Jo - Michael Benis Friday, August 05, 2005 4:59 PM RE: Your imput please Well, you know the answer, really, don't you Soleil, otherwise you wouldn't have posted. You feel bad about it. Your online friend feels bad about. You could have expressed yourself better..... The analogy holds in some ways, but not all, and the differences are important. That said you and hopefully your friend are still alive, so there's an opportunity to discuss how you felt and how she feels and to apologise if any offence was caused. That's my tuppence worth... Michael

 

 

[Guest guest]

Peter,

 

What's the low-down on HSBC, then?

 

Michael

 

 

On Behalf Of Peter04 August 2005 22:33 Subject: Re: Re: Your imput please

 

> I would've have said that animal agriculture is a big part of our economy but that doesn't make it right.Slavery was a big part of the economy (probably the biggest) until it was abolished! Some of the major slavery cartels still exist in more modern forms... such as HSBC bank.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Well, you know the answer, really, don't you Soleil, otherwise you wouldn't have posted. You feel bad about it. Your online friend feels bad about. You could have expressed yourself better..... The analogy holds in some ways, but not all, and the differences are important.

 

That said you and hopefully your friend are still alive, so there's an opportunity to discuss how you felt and how she feels and to apologise if any offence was caused.

 

That's my tuppence worth...

 

Michael

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of lv2breatheSent: 04 August 2005 01:38 Cc: Lv2breatheSubject: Your imput please

 

Hello vegan chat folks.

 

I want your imput.

 

I had an online friend who is Jewish. She lives in NYC and is a corporate lawyer.We are very different but we chat because we have a couple of things in common.

 

One time we got on the subject of meat. I told her about the suffering of food animals and I showed her pictures online of the horrific conditions for the animals who are raised for meat. I also told her of several films made of the subject.

 

She said she doesn't believe what she sees because the photos AND film could be fake. And she gave me a laundry list defending the other side a) animal agriculture is necessary for our economy b) the suffering only happens in a few places c) it isn't really suffering, it just seems like it d) the photos and films could very well be fake and e) what would we do with all the animals if we didn't eat them?

 

At the time I was appalled by her answers. I never came across someone who denied that much.

 

Later on, I told her that I thought her denial is not unlike the denial of those who say the Holocaust never happened. I told her I thought it was the same attitude, the same mechanism.

 

*****

 

What do you think of what I said? Do you think I went over the line?

 

I wasn't trying to say anything bad about Jews at all. I have neutral feelings towards Jews. I am just tired of groups who have grievances caring only about their grievances and no one else's.

 

And I was sickened, on behalf of the 9 BILLION animals who suffer and die in this country for meat...I was sickened that it was completely ignored.

 

Also, my comment came after a low in our relationship. For some reason, in the past few weeks, she grew more and more critical of me. And out came my feelings on her denying the truth.

 

Your thoughts are appreciated.

 

Soliel

[Guest guest]

What truth? Using the comparison of the Hollocaust is an opinion, not a

fact. For the comparison to work one would have to compare like to like.

One can compare the chambers to a slaughter house but one can't, using

truth/fact, compare the Hollocaust to a slaughter house. There is no

genocide or medical experiments, etc. in a slaughter house. There is no

well laid plan to exterminate a whole segment of life.

 

But, the bottomline is that using inflamatory statements stops all

communication. It does not leave people with something to think about. It

leaves them with anger and supports their belief in how crazy they think a

cause is. It gives them something to latch onto and say " See, I told you

they are just as bad as what they are against. "

 

It is a much better strategy to end it with " well, that is your opinion and

I have mine. Maybe we can discuss this again at another time when tempers

aren't so high. " That way one hasn't made an enemy for the cause. However,

this is simply how I would have gone about it and it seems there is more to

this particular incident than first appeared.

 

Lynda

 

-

<metalscarab

 

Friday, August 05, 2005 3:41 AM

Re: Your imput please

 

 

> Hi Lynda

>

> > Perhaps but I'd rather give them something to think about instead of

> > something to arm them in their arguments. Using the " H " word gives them

> > ammo. I choose to use reason.

>

> So, you see telling the truth as unreasonable?

>

> BB

> Peter

>

>

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

How better?

 

Jo

 

-

Michael Benis

Friday, August 05, 2005 4:59 PM

RE: Your imput please

 

Well, you know the answer, really, don't you Soleil, otherwise you wouldn't have posted. You feel bad about it. Your online friend feels bad about. You could have expressed yourself better..... The analogy holds in some ways, but not all, and the differences are important.

 

That said you and hopefully your friend are still alive, so there's an opportunity to discuss how you felt and how she feels and to apologise if any offence was caused.

 

That's my tuppence worth...

 

Michael

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of lv2breatheSent: 04 August 2005 01:38 Cc: Lv2breatheSubject: Your imput please

 

Hello vegan chat folks.

 

I want your imput.

 

I had an online friend who is Jewish. She lives in NYC and is a corporate lawyer.We are very different but we chat because we have a couple of things in common.

 

One time we got on the subject of meat. I told her about the suffering of food animals and I showed her pictures online of the horrific conditions for the animals who are raised for meat. I also told her of several films made of the subject.

 

She said she doesn't believe what she sees because the photos AND film could be fake. And she gave me a laundry list defending the other side a) animal agriculture is necessary for our economy b) the suffering only happens in a few places c) it isn't really suffering, it just seems like it d) the photos and films could very well be fake and e) what would we do with all the animals if we didn't eat them?

 

At the time I was appalled by her answers. I never came across someone who denied that much.

 

Later on, I told her that I thought her denial is not unlike the denial of those who say the Holocaust never happened. I told her I thought it was the same attitude, the same mechanism.

 

*****

 

What do you think of what I said? Do you think I went over the line?

 

I wasn't trying to say anything bad about Jews at all. I have neutral feelings towards Jews. I am just tired of groups who have grievances caring only about their grievances and no one else's.

 

And I was sickened, on behalf of the 9 BILLION animals who suffer and die in this country for meat...I was sickened that it was completely ignored.

 

Also, my comment came after a low in our relationship. For some reason, in the past few weeks, she grew more and more critical of me. And out came my feelings on her denying the truth.

 

Your thoughts are appreciated.

 

Soliel

[Guest guest]

One can compare the use of slaughter houses to the use of chambers though.

 

Jo

 

 

> What truth? Using the comparison of the Hollocaust is an opinion, not a

> fact. For the comparison to work one would have to compare like to like.

> One can compare the chambers to a slaughter house but one can't, using

> truth/fact, compare the Hollocaust to a slaughter house. There is no

> genocide or medical experiments, etc. in a slaughter house. There is no

> well laid plan to exterminate a whole segment of life.

>

> But, the bottomline is that using inflamatory statements stops all

> communication. It does not leave people with something to think about.

It

> leaves them with anger and supports their belief in how crazy they think a

> cause is. It gives them something to latch onto and say " See, I told you

> they are just as bad as what they are against. "

>

> It is a much better strategy to end it with " well, that is your opinion

and

> I have mine. Maybe we can discuss this again at another time when tempers

> aren't so high. " That way one hasn't made an enemy for the cause.

However,

> this is simply how I would have gone about it and it seems there is more

to

> this particular incident than first appeared.

>

> Lynda

>

> -

> <metalscarab

>

> Friday, August 05, 2005 3:41 AM

> Re: Your imput please

>

>

> > Hi Lynda

> >

> > > Perhaps but I'd rather give them something to think about instead of

> > > something to arm them in their arguments. Using the " H " word gives

them

> > > ammo. I choose to use reason.

> >

> > So, you see telling the truth as unreasonable?

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > To send an email to -

> >

[Guest guest]

so...slaughterhouses and factory farms are well laid plans to exterminate

life???

 

sorry lynda...rounding up people and working them to death in slave labor camps,

and shoving them in concentration camps to be eventually slaughtered is no

different then sending pigs, cows, chickens, et al from some cramped pen into an

even more cramped truck/railway car to their deaths ....

 

 

Lynda <lurine

Aug 5, 2005 12:04 PM

 

Re: Your imput please

 

What truth? Using the comparison of the Hollocaust is an opinion, not a

fact. For the comparison to work one would have to compare like to like.

One can compare the chambers to a slaughter house but one can't, using

truth/fact, compare the Hollocaust to a slaughter house. There is no

genocide or medical experiments, etc. in a slaughter house. There is no

well laid plan to exterminate a whole segment of life.

 

But, the bottomline is that using inflamatory statements stops all

communication. It does not leave people with something to think about. It

leaves them with anger and supports their belief in how crazy they think a

cause is. It gives them something to latch onto and say " See, I told you

they are just as bad as what they are against. "

 

It is a much better strategy to end it with " well, that is your opinion and

I have mine. Maybe we can discuss this again at another time when tempers

aren't so high. " That way one hasn't made an enemy for the cause. However,

this is simply how I would have gone about it and it seems there is more to

this particular incident than first appeared.

 

Lynda

 

-

<metalscarab

 

Friday, August 05, 2005 3:41 AM

Re: Your imput please

 

 

> Hi Lynda

>

> > Perhaps but I'd rather give them something to think about instead of

> > something to arm them in their arguments. Using the " H " word gives them

> > ammo. I choose to use reason.

>

> So, you see telling the truth as unreasonable?

>

> BB

> Peter

>

>

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

I said that. " Chambers to a slaughter house "

 

Lynda

-

Jo Cwazy <heartwork

 

Friday, August 05, 2005 11:21 AM

Re: Your imput please

 

 

> One can compare the use of slaughter houses to the use of chambers though.

>

> Jo

>

>

> > What truth? Using the comparison of the Hollocaust is an opinion, not a

> > fact. For the comparison to work one would have to compare like to

like.

> > One can compare the chambers to a slaughter house but one can't, using

> > truth/fact, compare the Hollocaust to a slaughter house. There is no

> > genocide or medical experiments, etc. in a slaughter house. There is no

> > well laid plan to exterminate a whole segment of life.

> >

> > But, the bottomline is that using inflamatory statements stops all

> > communication. It does not leave people with something to think about.

> It

> > leaves them with anger and supports their belief in how crazy they think

a

> > cause is. It gives them something to latch onto and say " See, I told

you

> > they are just as bad as what they are against. "

> >

> > It is a much better strategy to end it with " well, that is your opinion

> and

> > I have mine. Maybe we can discuss this again at another time when

tempers

> > aren't so high. " That way one hasn't made an enemy for the cause.

> However,

> > this is simply how I would have gone about it and it seems there is more

> to

> > this particular incident than first appeared.

> >

> > Lynda

> >

> > -

> > <metalscarab

> >

> > Friday, August 05, 2005 3:41 AM

> > Re: Your imput please

> >

> >

> > > Hi Lynda

> > >

> > > > Perhaps but I'd rather give them something to think about instead of

> > > > something to arm them in their arguments. Using the " H " word gives

> them

> > > > ammo. I choose to use reason.

> > >

> > > So, you see telling the truth as unreasonable?

> > >

> > > BB

> > > Peter

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > To send an email to -

> > >

[Guest guest]

Sorry, Fraggle, the intent is not the same. It isn't genocide with the

intent for there to do no more.

 

Lynda

-

fraggle <EBbrewpunx

 

Friday, August 05, 2005 12:07 PM

Re: Your imput please

 

 

> so...slaughterhouses and factory farms are well laid plans to exterminate

life???

>

> sorry lynda...rounding up people and working them to death in slave labor

camps, and shoving them in concentration camps to be eventually slaughtered

is no different then sending pigs, cows, chickens, et al from some cramped

pen into an even more cramped truck/railway car to their deaths ....

>

>

> Lynda <lurine

> Aug 5, 2005 12:04 PM

>

> Re: Your imput please

>

> What truth? Using the comparison of the Hollocaust is an opinion, not a

> fact. For the comparison to work one would have to compare like to like.

> One can compare the chambers to a slaughter house but one can't, using

> truth/fact, compare the Hollocaust to a slaughter house. There is no

> genocide or medical experiments, etc. in a slaughter house. There is no

> well laid plan to exterminate a whole segment of life.

>

> But, the bottomline is that using inflamatory statements stops all

> communication. It does not leave people with something to think about.

It

> leaves them with anger and supports their belief in how crazy they think a

> cause is. It gives them something to latch onto and say " See, I told you

> they are just as bad as what they are against. "

>

> It is a much better strategy to end it with " well, that is your opinion

and

> I have mine. Maybe we can discuss this again at another time when tempers

> aren't so high. " That way one hasn't made an enemy for the cause.

However,

> this is simply how I would have gone about it and it seems there is more

to

> this particular incident than first appeared.

>

> Lynda

>

> -

> <metalscarab

>

> Friday, August 05, 2005 3:41 AM

> Re: Your imput please

>

>

> > Hi Lynda

> >

> > > Perhaps but I'd rather give them something to think about instead of

> > > something to arm them in their arguments. Using the " H " word gives

them

> > > ammo. I choose to use reason.

> >

> > So, you see telling the truth as unreasonable?

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > To send an email to -

> >

[Guest guest]

and the ~use~ of one and the ~use~ of the other - a comparison.

 

Jo

 

-

" Lynda " <lurine

 

Friday, August 05, 2005 9:35 PM

Re: Your imput please

 

 

> I said that. " Chambers to a slaughter house "

>

> Lynda

> -

> Jo Cwazy <heartwork

>

> Friday, August 05, 2005 11:21 AM

> Re: Your imput please

>

>

> > One can compare the use of slaughter houses to the use of chambers

though.

> >

> > Jo

> >

> >

> > > What truth? Using the comparison of the Hollocaust is an opinion, not

a

> > > fact. For the comparison to work one would have to compare like to

> like.

> > > One can compare the chambers to a slaughter house but one can't, using

> > > truth/fact, compare the Hollocaust to a slaughter house. There is no

> > > genocide or medical experiments, etc. in a slaughter house. There is

no

> > > well laid plan to exterminate a whole segment of life.

> > >

> > > But, the bottomline is that using inflamatory statements stops all

> > > communication. It does not leave people with something to think

about.

> > It

> > > leaves them with anger and supports their belief in how crazy they

think

> a

> > > cause is. It gives them something to latch onto and say " See, I told

> you

> > > they are just as bad as what they are against. "

> > >

> > > It is a much better strategy to end it with " well, that is your

opinion

> > and

> > > I have mine. Maybe we can discuss this again at another time when

> tempers

> > > aren't so high. " That way one hasn't made an enemy for the cause.

> > However,

> > > this is simply how I would have gone about it and it seems there is

more

> > to

> > > this particular incident than first appeared.

> > >

> > > Lynda

> > >

> > > -

> > > <metalscarab

> > >

> > > Friday, August 05, 2005 3:41 AM

> > > Re: Your imput please

> > >

> > >

> > > > Hi Lynda

> > > >

> > > > > Perhaps but I'd rather give them something to think about instead

of

> > > > > something to arm them in their arguments. Using the " H " word

gives

> > them

> > > > > ammo. I choose to use reason.

> > > >

> > > > So, you see telling the truth as unreasonable?

> > > >

> > > > BB

> > > > Peter

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > To send an email to

-

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Michael

 

> The analogy holds in some ways, but not all, and the differences are important.

 

I'm intigued as to what ways you think the analogy is different... beyond the fact that one version is humans and the other is animals.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynda

 

> What truth? Using the comparison of the Hollocaust is an opinion, not a

> fact. For the comparison to work one would have to compare like to like.

> One can compare the chambers to a slaughter house but one can't, using

> truth/fact, compare the Hollocaust to a slaughter house. There is no

> genocide or medical experiments, etc. in a slaughter house. There is no

> well laid plan to exterminate a whole segment of life.

 

There wasn't in Nazi Germany, either. The plan was to reclaim " The

Motherland " for " pure born Aryans " . That meant that anyone who wasn't pure

born Aryan was subject to, initially, forcible removal from the area

controlled by Germany, then, later, to arrest and " extermination " . OK, so

the motive is slightly different, but the truth as to what happens to the

individual lives is the same. As someone recently said, when an animal in a

slaughterhouse looks at you, it isn't saying " please help future generations

of my species " , it is saying " PLEASE HELP ME " . I don't thin the motive

really matters too much to the victim.

 

> It is a much better strategy to end it with " well, that is your opinion

and

> I have mine. Maybe we can discuss this again at another time when tempers

> aren't so high. " That way one hasn't made an enemy for the cause.

However,

> this is simply how I would have gone about it and it seems there is more

to

> this particular incident than first appeared.

 

I think it is good to challenge people's beliefs. Perhaps your issue is more

that, as a non-vegan, you are having your beliefs questioned in a way which

makes you feel uncomfortable. The fact that you are continuing this

conversation is evidence that you are thinking about the issues... so it

seems that the analogy is having a very valid effect!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Michael

 

HSBC started out life as the "Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Cartel". They were major slave traders in Hong Kong and China... it is actually that organisation that, in Shanghai, gained a reputation for kidnapping people and forcing them into slavery... they are the very organisation from which the term "Shanghai'd" comes from!!!

 

Nowadays, of course, they are just a regular bank... not the most ethical of banking institutions, but probably not the worst, either.

 

BB

Peter

 

-

Michael Benis

Friday, August 05, 2005 4:24 PM

RE: Re: Your imput please

 

Peter,

 

What's the low-down on HSBC, then?

 

Michael

 

 

On Behalf Of Peter04 August 2005 22:33 Subject: Re: Re: Your imput please

 

> I would've have said that animal agriculture is a big part of our economy but that doesn't make it right.Slavery was a big part of the economy (probably the biggest) until it was abolished! Some of the major slavery cartels still exist in more modern forms... such as HSBC bank.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

There is no need for you to feel bad about the comment. If people feel that they are the only group capable of suffering that is their problem not yours. It does sound as though the whole demise of your friendship was inevitable as there had been friction over many months. I think it may be time to move on. Good luck with future friendships.

 

Jo

 

-

lv2breathe

Cc: Lv2breathe

Friday, August 05, 2005 7:28 PM

Re: Your imput please

 

 

I appreciate your thoughts.

 

I can honestly say I don't feel bad about the comment. Why? Because my comment had no intention of insulting her or her religion. Yes, I was angry but I said it with no malice whatsoever. I have no animosity towards Judaism or Jewish people at all.

 

I admit to feeling angry, though, about her thoughtlessness towards this issue. But I have been patient for a long time about it. I've been patient for months. I have been more patient with her than she has been with me to tell you the truth.

 

I do feel bad about the demise of our relationship but I feel it was out of my control. For a while now she has been criticizing me over my Buddhism and other personal stuff that was way out of line.

 

What I have learned, however, is that bringing up this issue it will probably not be understood. Many who have suffered will not see similarities with other groups, including the animal situation as it is today.

 

Soliel

 

In a message dated 8/5/05 10:24:47 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 16 Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:59:07 +0100 "Michael Benis" <michael.benisRE: Your imput pleaseWell, you know the answer, really, don't you Soleil, otherwise you wouldn'thave posted. You feel bad about it. Your online friend feels bad about. Youcould have expressed yourself better..... The analogy holds in some ways,but not all, and the differences are important.That said you and hopefully your friend are still alive, so there's anopportunity to discuss how you felt and how she feels and to apologise ifany offence was caused.That's my tuppence worth...Michael

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think sometimes we have friends for quite a while before we find out that there is not much we have in common, and several areas of friction. I've always thought that it's not worthing having any friends who cause you to feel miserable, or offended or anything other than good about who you are and what you do. Of course, that could be why I have loads and loads of friendly acquaintances and no real friends other than Colin.

 

It's just a matter of deciding how important a friend is to you, and whether you are actually important to them. Sometimes people just use you without giving back, and then it's best to call it a day.

 

BBJo

 

-

lv2breathe

Cc: Lv2breathe

Friday, August 05, 2005 7:38 PM

Re: your imput please

 

 

Thanks, Jo.

 

I honestly don't know how much better I could have been. I put up with her spewing untruths for a long time. I felt I did pretty good considering what she said and how long I tolerated it.

 

Soliel

 

In a message dated 8/5/05 10:24:47 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 21 Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:38:12 +0100 "Jo Cwazy" <heartworkRe: Your imput pleaseHow better?Jo - Michael Benis Friday, August 05, 2005 4:59 PM RE: Your imput please Well, you know the answer, really, don't you Soleil, otherwise you wouldn't have posted. You feel bad about it. Your online friend feels bad about. You could have expressed yourself better..... The analogy holds in some ways, but not all, and the differences are important. That said you and hopefully your friend are still alive, so there's an opportunity to discuss how you felt and how she feels and to apologise if any offence was caused. That's my tuppence worth... Michael