Your imput please

[Guest guest]

Lynda

 

I don't see how using the word Holocaust means Nazi. They are related but different things. Why should the mere mention of Holocaust automatically be offensive? It is a historical fact, it happened. Just by mentioning it I am not calling anyone a Nazi per se.

 

As for your other reasoning...I do drive a car (have to where I am or I have little life)...but I DON'T DENY global warming or the negative effects of cars. I also don't deny, and have voiced my opinion to my representatives a lot, the negative effects on labor for globalization even though I have purchased items from China (impossible to avoid these days, really).

 

The difference between my friend and me is that I don't deny the effects of my actions where she did. I may not do everything perfect, but I do try to make a difference, where she spends her energy denying everything so she doesn't have to do a thing.

 

Just because one's life is not perfectly green does not make them a hypocrite. If the sincerity is there and they are doing their best, then they are not a hypocrite.

 

Soliel

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 8/6/05 12:42:18 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 21 Fri, 5 Aug 2005 09:51:39 -0700 "Lynda" <lurineRe: Re: [Your imput pleaseI wasn't addressing you specifically but discourse in general and the use of the word Hollocaust. By choosing to use that word it is no different than choosing to use the word Nazi. It stops conversation and has been used for years to do just exactly that.Do you buy all organic? Do you drive a gas driven vehicle? Do you vaccinate your children? Do you buy anything made or built in a 3rd world country? Do you recycle? Do you use teflon, plastics, aluminum, wood?You don't have time? It's too far away? It is too expensive? They are too hard to find/do?If I tell you that your reasons for doing or not doing any of the above are only excuses and not valid and that makes you just as responsible for death and destruction of this planet as any Nazi during the Hollocaust, that you were refusing to face reality and the truth, you would not respond possitively.I was simply making a point that using the word Hollocaust doesn't work. It was nothing against you personally.Lynda - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Friday, August 05, 2005 7:29 AM Re: [Your imput please Hi Lynda I want to make it clear....I wasn't calling this woman a Nazi! I was making a comparison. When someone denies every photo, every film, every written word on what is happening to animals I think it feels the same as to me as it would feel to her if she cane across someone who denied the Holocaust. I am not saying she is denying the Holocaust...I am comparing the defense mechanism...I think they are very similar. Both deny the truth for their own psychological needs. Also, both truths are so self evident, it's totally baffles that someone would deny it. I think I did use reason here. Soliel In a message dated 8/4/05 11:49:36 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Message: 17 Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:36:52 -0700 "Lynda" <lurine Re: Your imput please Perhaps but I'd rather give them something to think about instead of something to arm them in their arguments. Using the "H" word gives them ammo. I choose to use reason. Against corporations or the government I use any weapon available, however! Lynda - Peter Thursday, August 04, 2005 2:26 PM Re: Your imput please Hi Lynda > And that's precisely how folks loose their audience. That is no different than using the Nazi comments if one > can't win an argument. The truth is the truth - winning an argument with people like that is a forlorn hope anyway, so you may as well tell them the truth and give them something to think about. BB Peter To send an email to - To send an email to -

 

 

[Guest guest]

When I was taking U.S. history in college we were assigned the task of writing a letter to a Congressperson about any issue we wished. I was big into "discovering my heritage" at the time and wrote a letter complaining about the focus of the suffering of the Jews during the Holocaust and the lack of focus on other groups that were targeted, specifically my peeps, the Gypsies. (Incidentally, while the number of Gypsies murdered during the Holocaust was far less than the Jews, we suffered a greater percentage of decimation to our population.) My professor liked it and told me he'd give me extra credit if I actually mailed the letter. I was a rather cantankerous young grrl in those days, so just to be a beeyotch I sent it to Senator Feinstein.

 

I certainly don't think she wrote it herself, but I did get a cool letter in response telling my all about the exhibit devoted to the Gypsies in the Holocaust Museum. This doesn't really relate to anything we've been talking about it, but is just a story I've always liked.

 

Love,

Anna

 

 

 

 

-

Jo Cwazy

 

8/6/2005 4:47:39 AM

Re: Re: Your imput please

 

There is no need for you to feel bad about the comment. If people feel that they are the only group capable of suffering that is their problem not yours. It does sound as though the whole demise of your friendship was inevitable as there had been friction over many months. I think it may be time to move on. Good luck with future friendships.

 

Jo

 

-

lv2breathe

Cc: Lv2breathe

Friday, August 05, 2005 7:28 PM

Re: Your imput please

 

 

I appreciate your thoughts.

 

I can honestly say I don't feel bad about the comment. Why? Because my comment had no intention of insulting her or her religion. Yes, I was angry but I said it with no malice whatsoever. I have no animosity towards Judaism or Jewish people at all.

 

I admit to feeling angry, though, about her thoughtlessness towards this issue. But I have been patient for a long time about it. I've been patient for months. I have been more patient with her than she has been with me to tell you the truth.

 

I do feel bad about the demise of our relationship but I feel it was out of my control. For a while now she has been criticizing me over my Buddhism and other personal stuff that was way out of line.

 

What I have learned, however, is that bringing up this issue it will probably not be understood. Many who have suffered will not see similarities with other groups, including the animal situation as it is today.

 

Soliel

 

In a message dated 8/5/05 10:24:47 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 16 Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:59:07 +0100 "Michael Benis" <michael.benisRE: Your imput pleaseWell, you know the answer, really, don't you Soleil, otherwise you wouldn'thave posted. You feel bad about it. Your online friend feels bad about. Youcould have expressed yourself better..... The analogy holds in some ways,but not all, and the differences are important.That said you and hopefully your friend are still alive, so there's anopportunity to discuss how you felt and how she feels and to apologise ifany offence was caused.That's my tuppence worth...Michael

 

 

[Guest guest]

In detail and without analogies, which very often don't help in these case unless there is broad agreement between both parties - and that's without analogies about something like the holocaust. Sounded to me more like Soleil's comment was spoken in exasperation at a point of closure...

 

Mike

 

 

On Behalf Of Jo Cwazy05 August 2005 17:38 Subject: Re: Your imput please

 

How better?

 

Jo

 

-

Michael Benis

Friday, August 05, 2005 4:59 PM

RE: Your imput please

 

Well, you know the answer, really, don't you Soleil, otherwise you wouldn't have posted. You feel bad about it. Your online friend feels bad about. You could have expressed yourself better..... The analogy holds in some ways, but not all, and the differences are important.

 

That said you and hopefully your friend are still alive, so there's an opportunity to discuss how you felt and how she feels and to apologise if any offence was caused.

 

That's my tuppence worth...

 

Michael

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of lv2breatheSent: 04 August 2005 01:38 Cc: Lv2breatheSubject: Your imput please

 

Hello vegan chat folks.

 

I want your imput.

 

I had an online friend who is Jewish. She lives in NYC and is a corporate lawyer.We are very different but we chat because we have a couple of things in common.

 

One time we got on the subject of meat. I told her about the suffering of food animals and I showed her pictures online of the horrific conditions for the animals who are raised for meat. I also told her of several films made of the subject.

 

She said she doesn't believe what she sees because the photos AND film could be fake. And she gave me a laundry list defending the other side a) animal agriculture is necessary for our economy b) the suffering only happens in a few places c) it isn't really suffering, it just seems like it d) the photos and films could very well be fake and e) what would we do with all the animals if we didn't eat them?

 

At the time I was appalled by her answers. I never came across someone who denied that much.

 

Later on, I told her that I thought her denial is not unlike the denial of those who say the Holocaust never happened. I told her I thought it was the same attitude, the same mechanism.

 

*****

 

What do you think of what I said? Do you think I went over the line?

 

I wasn't trying to say anything bad about Jews at all. I have neutral feelings towards Jews. I am just tired of groups who have grievances caring only about their grievances and no one else's.

 

And I was sickened, on behalf of the 9 BILLION animals who suffer and die in this country for meat...I was sickened that it was completely ignored.

 

Also, my comment came after a low in our relationship. For some reason, in the past few weeks, she grew more and more critical of me. And out came my feelings on her denying the truth.

 

Your thoughts are appreciated.

 

Soliel

[Guest guest]

i would consider the slaughter of something like 250,000 of the roma pretty high....

 

do you still have the letter, either one? Anna Blaine Aug 6, 2005 8:09 AM Re: Re: Your imput please

 

When I was taking U.S. history in college we were assigned the task of writing a letter to a Congressperson about any issue we wished. I was big into "discovering my heritage" at the time and wrote a letter complaining about the focus of the suffering of the Jews during the Holocaust and the lack of focus on other groups that were targeted, specifically my peeps, the Gypsies. (Incidentally, while the number of Gypsies murdered during the Holocaust was far less than the Jews, we suffered a greater percentage of decimation to our population.) My professor liked it and told me he'd give me extra credit if I actually mailed the letter. I was a rather cantankerous young grrl in those days, so just to be a beeyotch I sent it to Senator Feinstein.

 

I certainly don't think she wrote it herself, but I did get a cool letter in response telling my all about the exhibit devoted to the Gypsies in the Holocaust Museum. This doesn't really relate to anything we've been talking about it, but is just a story I've always liked.

 

Love,

Anna

 

 

 

 

-

Jo Cwazy

 

8/6/2005 4:47:39 AM

Re: Re: Your imput please

 

There is no need for you to feel bad about the comment. If people feel that they are the only group capable of suffering that is their problem not yours. It does sound as though the whole demise of your friendship was inevitable as there had been friction over many months. I think it may be time to move on. Good luck with future friendships.

 

Jo

 

-----

“If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – foreverâ€

-George Orwell

[Guest guest]

HI Anna

 

That is interesting. There were also a lot of Polish people killed - these too tend to be forgotten when talking about the holocaust.

 

Jo

 

-

Anna Blaine

Saturday, August 06, 2005 4:09 PM

Re: Re: Your imput please

 

When I was taking U.S. history in college we were assigned the task of writing a letter to a Congressperson about any issue we wished. I was big into "discovering my heritage" at the time and wrote a letter complaining about the focus of the suffering of the Jews during the Holocaust and the lack of focus on other groups that were targeted, specifically my peeps, the Gypsies. (Incidentally, while the number of Gypsies murdered during the Holocaust was far less than the Jews, we suffered a greater percentage of decimation to our population.) My professor liked it and told me he'd give me extra credit if I actually mailed the letter. I was a rather cantankerous young grrl in those days, so just to be a beeyotch I sent it to Senator Feinstein.

 

I certainly don't think she wrote it herself, but I did get a cool letter in response telling my all about the exhibit devoted to the Gypsies in the Holocaust Museum. This doesn't really relate to anything we've been talking about it, but is just a story I've always liked.

 

Love,

Anna

 

 

 

 

-

Jo Cwazy

 

8/6/2005 4:47:39 AM

Re: Re: Your imput please

 

There is no need for you to feel bad about the comment. If people feel that they are the only group capable of suffering that is their problem not yours. It does sound as though the whole demise of your friendship was inevitable as there had been friction over many months. I think it may be time to move on. Good luck with future friendships.

 

Jo

 

-

lv2breathe

Cc: Lv2breathe

Friday, August 05, 2005 7:28 PM

Re: Your imput please

 

 

I appreciate your thoughts.

 

I can honestly say I don't feel bad about the comment. Why? Because my comment had no intention of insulting her or her religion. Yes, I was angry but I said it with no malice whatsoever. I have no animosity towards Judaism or Jewish people at all.

 

I admit to feeling angry, though, about her thoughtlessness towards this issue. But I have been patient for a long time about it. I've been patient for months. I have been more patient with her than she has been with me to tell you the truth.

 

I do feel bad about the demise of our relationship but I feel it was out of my control. For a while now she has been criticizing me over my Buddhism and other personal stuff that was way out of line.

 

What I have learned, however, is that bringing up this issue it will probably not be understood. Many who have suffered will not see similarities with other groups, including the animal situation as it is today.

 

Soliel

 

In a message dated 8/5/05 10:24:47 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 16 Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:59:07 +0100 "Michael Benis" <michael.benisRE: Your imput pleaseWell, you know the answer, really, don't you Soleil, otherwise you wouldn'thave posted. You feel bad about it. Your online friend feels bad about. Youcould have expressed yourself better..... The analogy holds in some ways,but not all, and the differences are important.That said you and hopefully your friend are still alive, so there's anopportunity to discuss how you felt and how she feels and to apologise ifany offence was caused.That's my tuppence worth...Michael

 

 

[Guest guest]

Others have now covered this, notably Lynda. Here goes anyway: The holocaust aimed to annihilate particular groups of people in the belief that "purity" was socially desirable for another group of people. Modern factory farming is industrialised violence carried out in the belief that one species isn't capable of sustaining their own life without taking the lives of other species. Both rely on misinformation, prejudice, fear and secrecy - so there are elements in common, just as there are differences - the differences between annihilation and sustenance. But the analogy Soleil drew wasn't between the holocaust and factory farming, it was between those who naively like to believe most farm animals live out life in an idealised turn-of-the-century pastoral idyll and holocaust deniers such as Irving. Leaving aside industry disinformation, their motivations, rhetoric and political intent are very different.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

On Behalf Of Peter06 August 2005 08:36 Subject: Re: Your imput please

 

Hi Michael

 

> The analogy holds in some ways, but not all, and the differences are important.

 

I'm intigued as to what ways you think the analogy is different... beyond the fact that one version is humans and the other is animals.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

What comparison would you suggest, and why not the holocaust? and which differences are important and why?

 

Jo

 

-

Michael Benis

Saturday, August 06, 2005 5:06 PM

RE: Your imput please

 

In detail and without analogies, which very often don't help in these case unless there is broad agreement between both parties - and that's without analogies about something like the holocaust. Sounded to me more like Soleil's comment was spoken in exasperation at a point of closure...

 

Mike

 

 

On Behalf Of Jo Cwazy05 August 2005 17:38 Subject: Re: Your imput please

 

How better?

 

Jo

 

-

Michael Benis

Friday, August 05, 2005 4:59 PM

RE: Your imput please

 

Well, you know the answer, really, don't you Soleil, otherwise you wouldn't have posted. You feel bad about it. Your online friend feels bad about. You could have expressed yourself better..... The analogy holds in some ways, but not all, and the differences are important.

 

That said you and hopefully your friend are still alive, so there's an opportunity to discuss how you felt and how she feels and to apologise if any offence was caused.

 

That's my tuppence worth...

 

Michael

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of lv2breatheSent: 04 August 2005 01:38 Cc: Lv2breatheSubject: Your imput please

 

Hello vegan chat folks.

 

I want your imput.

 

I had an online friend who is Jewish. She lives in NYC and is a corporate lawyer.We are very different but we chat because we have a couple of things in common.

 

One time we got on the subject of meat. I told her about the suffering of food animals and I showed her pictures online of the horrific conditions for the animals who are raised for meat. I also told her of several films made of the subject.

 

She said she doesn't believe what she sees because the photos AND film could be fake. And she gave me a laundry list defending the other side a) animal agriculture is necessary for our economy b) the suffering only happens in a few places c) it isn't really suffering, it just seems like it d) the photos and films could very well be fake and e) what would we do with all the animals if we didn't eat them?

 

At the time I was appalled by her answers. I never came across someone who denied that much.

 

Later on, I told her that I thought her denial is not unlike the denial of those who say the Holocaust never happened. I told her I thought it was the same attitude, the same mechanism.

 

*****

 

What do you think of what I said? Do you think I went over the line?

 

I wasn't trying to say anything bad about Jews at all. I have neutral feelings towards Jews. I am just tired of groups who have grievances caring only about their grievances and no one else's.

 

And I was sickened, on behalf of the 9 BILLION animals who suffer and die in this country for meat...I was sickened that it was completely ignored.

 

Also, my comment came after a low in our relationship. For some reason, in the past few weeks, she grew more and more critical of me. And out came my feelings on her denying the truth.

 

Your thoughts are appreciated.

 

Soliel

[Guest guest]

and slavs in general, and homosexuals and communists and and and and....

 

humans scare me..... Jo Cwazy Aug 6, 2005 9:25 AM Re: Re: Your imput please

 

HI Anna

 

That is interesting. There were also a lot of Polish people killed - these too tend to be forgotten when talking about the holocaust.

 

Jo

 

-----

“If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – foreverâ€

-George Orwell

[Guest guest]

I was suggesting not using comparisons, though as I've stated I think there are many parallels - I just don't think it's a helpful way of talking with someone who can't already see them. Tried to cover the differences bit with Peter.

 

M

 

 

On Behalf Of Jo Cwazy06 August 2005 17:48 Subject: Re: Your imput please

 

What comparison would you suggest, and why not the holocaust? and which differences are important and why?

 

Jo

 

-

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the giggle, Peter, but that simply shows you don't know me.

Being vegan or not isn't the reasoning. I've been in the activist life

style for over 50 years and it was about debate and how one reaches the most

people and how not to alienate people.

 

It is good to challenge people's beliefs but one has to know one's audience.

 

There are certain trigger words which shut down ALL conversation and

Holocaust is one of them. It doesn't make people think, it angers people

and generally turns them against whatever your cause is.

 

As a First Nations member, I learned a long time ago that it does no good to

compare the geneocide in the Americas to the Holocaust *even though* the

geneocide meets the definition of holocaust and more folks were killed here

than there. AND, heaven forbid that you should ever mention that the

Holocaust, capital " H " wasn't just about Jews.

 

Bottomline, Holocaust and Nazi are words that stop communication. People

don't go home to think about " what " you said. They go home and think about

" you " and the " word " you used.

 

Lynda

-

Peter <metalscarab

>

> I think it is good to challenge people's beliefs. Perhaps your issue is

more

> that, as a non-vegan, you are having your beliefs questioned in a way

which

> makes you feel uncomfortable. The fact that you are continuing this

> conversation is evidence that you are thinking about the issues... so it

> seems that the analogy is having a very valid effect!

>

> BB

> Peter

>

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

What I think is most interesting is that folks will donate like crazy to this that and the other thing. They'll cry crocodile tears and sympathise up the . But heaven forbid that you ever tell them where Hitler got his ideas!

 

Lynda

 

-

fraggle

Saturday, August 06, 2005 9:50 AM

Re: Re: Your imput please

 

and slavs in general, and homosexuals and communists and and and and....

 

humans scare me..... Jo Cwazy Aug 6, 2005 9:25 AM Re: Re: Your imput please

 

HI Anna

 

That is interesting. There were also a lot of Polish people killed - these too tend to be forgotten when talking about the holocaust.

 

Jo

 

-----

“If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – foreverâ€

-George Orwell

 

 

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release 8/4/05

 

 

 

 

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release 8/4/05

[Guest guest]

Naw, this was nearly ten years ago. I didn't think to keep either. Sorry.

 

love,

Anna

 

 

 

 

-

fraggle

 

8/6/2005 10:07:48 AM

Re: Re: Your imput please

 

i would consider the slaughter of something like 250,000 of the roma pretty high....

 

do you still have the letter, either one? Anna Blaine Aug 6, 2005 8:09 AM Re: Re: Your imput please

 

When I was taking U.S. history in college we were assigned the task of writing a letter to a Congressperson about any issue we wished. I was big into "discovering my heritage" at the time and wrote a letter complaining about the focus of the suffering of the Jews during the Holocaust and the lack of focus on other groups that were targeted, specifically my peeps, the Gypsies. (Incidentally, while the number of Gypsies murdered during the Holocaust was far less than the Jews, we suffered a greater percentage of decimation to our population.) My professor liked it and told me he'd give me extra credit if I actually mailed the letter. I was a rather cantankerous young grrl in those days, so just to be a beeyotch I sent it to Senator Feinstein.

 

I certainly don't think she wrote it herself, but I did get a cool letter in response telling my all about the exhibit devoted to the Gypsies in the Holocaust Museum. This doesn't really relate to anything we've been talking about it, but is just a story I've always liked.

 

Love,

Anna

 

 

 

 

-

Jo Cwazy

 

8/6/2005 4:47:39 AM

Re: Re: Your imput please

 

There is no need for you to feel bad about the comment. If people feel that they are the only group capable of suffering that is their problem not yours. It does sound as though the whole demise of your friendship was inevitable as there had been friction over many months. I think it may be time to move on. Good luck with future friendships.

 

Jo

 

-----

“If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – foreverâ€

-George Orwell

[Guest guest]

I mentioned them also, along with gays. But since most of my research at the time involved the Romany (and me being of Romany descent), I chose to make that group my focus.

 

Love,

Anna

 

 

 

 

-

Jo Cwazy

 

8/6/2005 10:40:30 AM

Re: Re: Your imput please

 

HI Anna

 

That is interesting. There were also a lot of Polish people killed - these too tend to be forgotten when talking about the holocaust.

 

Jo

 

-

Anna Blaine

Saturday, August 06, 2005 4:09 PM

Re: Re: Your imput please

 

When I was taking U.S. history in college we were assigned the task of writing a letter to a Congressperson about any issue we wished. I was big into "discovering my heritage" at the time and wrote a letter complaining about the focus of the suffering of the Jews during the Holocaust and the lack of focus on other groups that were targeted, specifically my peeps, the Gypsies. (Incidentally, while the number of Gypsies murdered during the Holocaust was far less than the Jews, we suffered a greater percentage of decimation to our population.) My professor liked it and told me he'd give me extra credit if I actually mailed the letter. I was a rather cantankerous young grrl in those days, so just to be a beeyotch I sent it to Senator Feinstein.

 

I certainly don't think she wrote it herself, but I did get a cool letter in response telling my all about the exhibit devoted to the Gypsies in the Holocaust Museum. This doesn't really relate to anything we've been talking about it, but is just a story I've always liked.

 

Love,

Anna

 

 

 

 

-

Jo Cwazy

 

8/6/2005 4:47:39 AM

Re: Re: Your imput please

 

There is no need for you to feel bad about the comment. If people feel that they are the only group capable of suffering that is their problem not yours. It does sound as though the whole demise of your friendship was inevitable as there had been friction over many months. I think it may be time to move on. Good luck with future friendships.

 

Jo

 

-

lv2breathe

Cc: Lv2breathe

Friday, August 05, 2005 7:28 PM

Re: Your imput please

 

 

I appreciate your thoughts.

 

I can honestly say I don't feel bad about the comment. Why? Because my comment had no intention of insulting her or her religion. Yes, I was angry but I said it with no malice whatsoever. I have no animosity towards Judaism or Jewish people at all.

 

I admit to feeling angry, though, about her thoughtlessness towards this issue. But I have been patient for a long time about it. I've been patient for months. I have been more patient with her than she has been with me to tell you the truth.

 

I do feel bad about the demise of our relationship but I feel it was out of my control. For a while now she has been criticizing me over my Buddhism and other personal stuff that was way out of line.

 

What I have learned, however, is that bringing up this issue it will probably not be understood. Many who have suffered will not see similarities with other groups, including the animal situation as it is today.

 

Soliel

 

In a message dated 8/5/05 10:24:47 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 16 Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:59:07 +0100 "Michael Benis" <michael.benisRE: Your imput pleaseWell, you know the answer, really, don't you Soleil, otherwise you wouldn'thave posted. You feel bad about it. Your online friend feels bad about. Youcould have expressed yourself better..... The analogy holds in some ways,but not all, and the differences are important.That said you and hopefully your friend are still alive, so there's anopportunity to discuss how you felt and how she feels and to apologise ifany offence was caused.That's my tuppence worth...Michael

 

 

[Guest guest]

As a vegan who personally has no problems with many of the analogies that

are being thrown around, I have to say I agree entirely with Lynda. Many

people who get engaged in conversations about veganism may be curious but

they are also, as Peter says, uncomfortable, which more often than not means

they are looking for an excuse not to listen to us, but to pigeonhole the

discourse and reject it. These analogies play into their hands. The result

is that I have often had conversations about veganism that do not revolve

around what it or industrial animal farming is, but rather what vegans are

like - precisely because, as Lynda has said - they go home and think bout

" you " and the " word " (or other confrontational analogy) used. And don't

think I mean there's something wrong with confronting people with animal

suffering, wasted resources and poor health, it's just that you can confront

someone without being confrontational. You share the information with them.

That's a big difference - as we ought to know from the many people who ask

us questions but are really being confrontational themselves. Why fall into

the same patterns of behaviour?

 

Viva! is one of the most successful campaigning organisation in the history

of veganism, and it has done so largely through a combination of creativity,

information and humour.... what's more it's done so largely by being

inclusive, not censorious about vegetarianism, and not drawing strict

demarcation lines between ovo-lacto and vegans, while nevertheless making it

quite clear which way the logic goes on every front (animals, health, the

environment).

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

On

Behalf Of Lynda

06 August 2005 21:33

 

Re: Your imput please

 

Thanks for the giggle, Peter, but that simply shows you don't know me.

Being vegan or not isn't the reasoning. I've been in the activist life

style for over 50 years and it was about debate and how one reaches the most

people and how not to alienate people.

 

It is good to challenge people's beliefs but one has to know one's audience.

 

There are certain trigger words which shut down ALL conversation and

Holocaust is one of them. It doesn't make people think, it angers people

and generally turns them against whatever your cause is.

 

As a First Nations member, I learned a long time ago that it does no good to

compare the geneocide in the Americas to the Holocaust *even though* the

geneocide meets the definition of holocaust and more folks were killed here

than there. AND, heaven forbid that you should ever mention that the

Holocaust, capital " H " wasn't just about Jews.

 

Bottomline, Holocaust and Nazi are words that stop communication. People

don't go home to think about " what " you said. They go home and think about

" you " and the " word " you used.

 

Lynda

-

Peter <metalscarab

>

> I think it is good to challenge people's beliefs. Perhaps your issue

> is

more

> that, as a non-vegan, you are having your beliefs questioned in a way

which

> makes you feel uncomfortable. The fact that you are continuing this

> conversation is evidence that you are thinking about the issues... so

> it seems that the analogy is having a very valid effect!

>

> BB

> Peter

>

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

> But heaven forbid that you ever tell them where Hitler got his ideas!

 

Lynda

 

Go on! Give us a hint, then....

 

Cheers

 

Michael

[Guest guest]

Sorry, Fraggle, while I wouldn't agree with all of that (medical experiments

and laboratory animals do compare etc.) you're missing two points; quoting

Lynda:

 

1) " There is no well laid plan to exterminate a whole segment of life. "

 

2) " But, the bottomline is that using inflamatory statements stops all

communication. "

 

FWIW

 

Mike

 

 

On

Behalf Of fraggle

05 August 2005 20:07

 

Re: Your imput please

 

so...slaughterhouses and factory farms are well laid plans to exterminate

life???

 

sorry lynda...rounding up people and working them to death in slave labor

camps, and shoving them in concentration camps to be eventually slaughtered

is no different then sending pigs, cows, chickens, et al from some cramped

pen into an even more cramped truck/railway car to their deaths ....

 

 

Lynda <lurine

Aug 5, 2005 12:04 PM

 

Re: Your imput please

 

What truth? Using the comparison of the Hollocaust is an opinion, not a

fact. For the comparison to work one would have to compare like to like.

One can compare the chambers to a slaughter house but one can't, using

truth/fact, compare the Hollocaust to a slaughter house. There is no

genocide or medical experiments, etc. in a slaughter house. There is no

well laid plan to exterminate a whole segment of life.

 

But, the bottomline is that using inflamatory statements stops all

communication. It does not leave people with something to think about. It

leaves them with anger and supports their belief in how crazy they think a

cause is. It gives them something to latch onto and say " See, I told you

they are just as bad as what they are against. "

 

It is a much better strategy to end it with " well, that is your opinion and

I have mine. Maybe we can discuss this again at another time when tempers

aren't so high. " That way one hasn't made an enemy for the cause. However,

this is simply how I would have gone about it and it seems there is more to

this particular incident than first appeared.

 

Lynda

 

-

<metalscarab

 

Friday, August 05, 2005 3:41 AM

Re: Your imput please

 

 

> Hi Lynda

>

> > Perhaps but I'd rather give them something to think about instead of

> > something to arm them in their arguments. Using the " H " word gives

> > them ammo. I choose to use reason.

>

> So, you see telling the truth as unreasonable?

>

> BB

> Peter

>

>

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Anna

 

> When I was taking U.S. history in college we were assigned the task of writing a letter to a Congressperson about any issue we

> wished. I was big into "discovering my heritage" at the time and wrote a letter complaining about the focus of the suffering of the

> Jews during the Holocaust and the lack of focus on other groups that were targeted, specifically my peeps, the Gypsies.

> (Incidentally, while the number of Gypsies murdered during the Holocaust was far less than the Jews, we suffered a greater

> percentage of decimation to our population.) My professor liked it and told me he'd give me extra credit if I actually mailed the

> letter. I was a rather cantankerous young grrl in those days, so just to be a beeyotch I sent it to Senator Feinstein.

 

Unfortunately it is all too often forgotten that it wasn't just Jews who were persecuted by Nazis. In pure number, more Poles were killed than Jews, but we never hear of "The Polish Holocaust", or, as you have highlighted, the Gypsy holocaust... or the gay holocaust, communist holocaust. Unfortunately, nowadays, when anyone points this out, they are automatically classified as "holocaust deniers" (take Peter Novak for example!!!).

 

What really baffles me is that all those who take this stance are also automatically branded as being anti-semitic, as though the "holocaust" is somehow the justification of anti-Semitism being wrong... the implication seems to be that anti-Semitism would be fine if the holocaust did turn out to be a myth, and perhaps I'm strange (Nikki - just hold that thought), but I don't see it that way!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Michael

 

> Others have now covered this, notably Lynda. Here goes anyway: The holocaust aimed to annihilate particular groups of people in

> the belief that "purity" was socially desirable for another group of people. Modern factory farming is industrialised violence carried

> out in the belief that one species isn't capable of sustaining their own life without taking the lives of other species.

 

Do you think this makes a difference to the individuals who are being killed and tortured in either scenario?

 

And of course, let's not forget that a large part of "the holocaust" included medical experimentation on humans, which has resulted in medical advances... so it wasn't *only* annihilation.

 

> But the analogy Soleil drew wasn't between the holocaust and factory farming, it was between those who naively like to believe

> most farm animals live out life in an idealised turn-of-the-century pastoral idyll and holocaust deniers such as Irving. Leaving aside

> industry disinformation, their motivations, rhetoric and political intent are very different.

 

Unfortunately I haven't yet had the chance to read Irving's work (I always like to read the actual work before deciding that value, rather than what is said about it), so can not comment on the details. Perhaps you could give me some details of exactly which parts of Irving's work you are referring to (save me reading everything he's written).

 

However, on the general point, I see little difference between denying concentration camps in which people were tortured, lived in cramped conditions, used as slave labour, etc. and denying factory farming in which.... to me, it seems a very apt analogy. And, of course there are some minor differences... otherwise it wouldn't be an analogy, it would be a meme!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynda

 

> Thanks for the giggle, Peter, but that simply shows you don't know me.

> Being vegan or not isn't the reasoning. I've been in the activist life

> style for over 50 years and it was about debate and how one reaches the

most

> people and how not to alienate people.

 

> Bottomline, Holocaust and Nazi are words that stop communication. People

> don't go home to think about " what " you said. They go home and think

about

> " you " and the " word " you used.

 

For someone who has been involved in activism for such a long time, you seem

to have a poor understanding of how things get changed in the world. Women

didn't get the vote because the suffragettes went around to women's

institutes and gave talks on how nice it would be if women could vote.

Slavery wasn't abolished because those against it talked about how good it

would make people feel if they freed their slaves. That just isn't how

change happens. It happens through people telling the truth - sometimes in

not very pleasant ways, and by making people listen to those truths through

a variety of means which are invariable confrontative. Nothing is changed by

letting people have a comfort zone - it is *only* changed when people are

jerked out of that comfort zone. The word " apathy " comes from the Greek that

means literally " no pain " .... if people aren't made to feel uncomfortable,

they will never change their views on anything!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

<snip>

 

However, on the general point, I see little difference between denying concentration camps in which people were tortured, lived in cramped conditions, used as slave labour, etc. and denying factory farming in which.... to me, it seems a very apt analogy. And, of course there are some minor differences... otherwise it wouldn't be an analogy, it would be a meme!

 

BB

Peter

>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Peter we're agreed on that. What we're not agreeing on is whether there's any point in drawing analogies with something where the discussion (as this one has) almost invariably becomes focused on the details of the analogy (how comparable is the holocaust with industrial farming/experimentation on animals) rather than on what actually goes on in the latter. That's where Soleil's encounter and many other conversations of this ilk come unstuck. Sticking politely and persistently to the facts of animal abuse in the current system is much more uncomfortable for an interlocutor (taking your point about comfort in your post to Lynda and ignoring your value judgement about what she has learnt in 50 years of activism) than making comparisons that are more than likely not to shock into enlightenment, but rather give a justification for labelling and dismissing you.

 

Been there, done that and seen the results. I've never cared what others have thought of me, but I have regretted not being more persuasive (and less egotistical) for the animals. Effective communication is as much about understanding your audience as your subject matter.

 

Cheers

 

Michael

[Guest guest]

He lived books about the American west and the early settlers of the Americas. He thought the method of ridding the land of those pesky Indians was absolutely the greatest idea ever. He got the idea of testing diseases on the Jews from the early Brit officers who took blankets from the pox hospitals and gave them to the Indians with the intent of them catching smallpox and dying.

 

Lynda

 

-

Michael Benis

Sunday, August 07, 2005 3:32 AM

RE: Re: Your imput please

 

> But heaven forbid that you ever tell them where Hitler got his ideas!

 

Lynda

 

Go on! Give us a hint, then....

 

Cheers

 

Michael

[Guest guest]

I think it is fairly obvious that Soliel's friend was not going to try to understand/belief what was said. The 'analogy' was made as a last attempt to make her think about it. It was the end of the line. This is what usually happens.

 

It amazes me how we spend our time trying not to upset people about their animal-eating, and how we try to avoid telling them exactly how badly we think of them for doing so.

 

Jo

 

-

Michael Benis

Sunday, August 07, 2005 6:18 PM

RE: Your imput please

 

<snip>

 

However, on the general point, I see little difference between denying concentration camps in which people were tortured, lived in cramped conditions, used as slave labour, etc. and denying factory farming in which.... to me, it seems a very apt analogy. And, of course there are some minor differences... otherwise it wouldn't be an analogy, it would be a meme!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Thanks!

 

 

On Behalf Of Lynda07 August 2005 18:53 Subject: Re: Re: Your imput please

 

He lived books about the American west and the early settlers of the Americas. He thought the method of ridding the land of those pesky Indians was absolutely the greatest idea ever. He got the idea of testing diseases on the Jews from the early Brit officers who took blankets from the pox hospitals and gave them to the Indians with the intent of them catching smallpox and dying.

 

Lynda

 

-

Michael Benis

Sunday, August 07, 2005 3:32 AM

RE: Re: Your imput please

 

> But heaven forbid that you ever tell them where Hitler got his ideas!

 

Lynda

 

Go on! Give us a hint, then....

 

Cheers

 

Michael

[Guest guest]

Ya know, I am going to somewhat change the direction of this conversation

because I'm not sure if folks from the two sides of the " pond " view the

history of slavery the same, nor the ending of slavery.

 

Are you talking about how slavery ended in Europe or how slavery ended in

the U.S. If you are talking about how slavery ended in the U.S., then I

strongly recommend that you read " Lies My Teacher Told Me " because what

you've been taught isn't the reality. The reality is that slavery didn't

end because of the squeeky wheel. The civil war was NOT about slavery but

rather about control. Slavery was an easy banner to carry that folks could

get behind. Further, slavery in the U.S. did NOT end until decades after

the Civil War. The Immancipation Proclamation and the resulting Amendment

to the Constitution did NOT end slavery. They only ended slavery for those

with a certain skin color.

 

Now, on to the rest of your post. I was picketing the steps of the capital

when I was 5. I was a very active member of the folks at People's Park in

the 60s, at Alcatraz and have gotten laws stopped and legislators tossed out

on their collective arses.

 

AGAIN, know your audience. If you don't make the effort to know your

audience then you will accomplish nothing!

 

Lynda

-

" Peter " <metalscarab

>

> For someone who has been involved in activism for such a long time, you

seem

> to have a poor understanding of how things get changed in the world. Women

> didn't get the vote because the suffragettes went around to women's

> institutes and gave talks on how nice it would be if women could vote.

> Slavery wasn't abolished because those against it talked about how good it

> would make people feel if they freed their slaves. That just isn't how

> change happens. It happens through people telling the truth - sometimes in

> not very pleasant ways, and by making people listen to those truths

through

> a variety of means which are invariable confrontative. Nothing is changed

by

> letting people have a comfort zone - it is *only* changed when people are

> jerked out of that comfort zone. The word " apathy " comes from the Greek

that

> means literally " no pain " .... if people aren't made to feel uncomfortable,

> they will never change their views on anything!

>

> BB

> Peter

[Guest guest]

Still begs the question did the line have to end there... which means continuing to upset them...

 

How badly we think of them? How badly do you think of a zombie in our sleepwalker non-civilisation?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

On Behalf Of Jo Cwazy07 August 2005 19:53 Subject: Re: Your imput please

 

I think it is fairly obvious that Soliel's friend was not going to try to understand/belief what was said. The 'analogy' was made as a last attempt to make her think about it. It was the end of the line. This is what usually happens.

 

It amazes me how we spend our time trying not to upset people about their animal-eating, and how we try to avoid telling them exactly how badly we think of them for doing so.

 

Jo

 

-

Michael Benis

Sunday, August 07, 2005 6:18 PM

RE: Your imput please

 

<snip>

 

However, on the general point, I see little difference between denying concentration camps in which people were tortured, lived in cramped conditions, used as slave labour, etc. and denying factory farming in which.... to me, it seems a very apt analogy. And, of course there are some minor differences... otherwise it wouldn't be an analogy, it would be a meme!

 

BB

Peter