Guest guest Report post Posted August 8, 2005 Hi Nikki What you say is true. I think the internet is marvellous for chatting to people. You can get to know people rather well. My daughter made friends on the internet and went to the States to meet them and then the whole group went to France for the next year's holiday to stay with one of the women they chatted with online. Jo - " earthstrm " <nikkimack Monday, August 08, 2005 2:12 PM Re: your imput please > Hi Jo, > > Very well put! I am somewhat the same way. Even some of my oldest > and closest friends I am in contact with and know I could call on > them in trouble (and vice versa), there are not many I could really > talk to that understand. > > I use to think it was sad on my part that I could open up to some of > you more than I could to some of my closest friends. Now I find that > I am lucky in that I have you to relate to and talk with. No matter > that you are not located down the block. > > BB > Nikki > > , " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote: > > I think sometimes we have friends for quite a while before we find > out that there is not much we have in common, and several areas of > friction. I've always thought that it's not worthing having any > friends who cause you to feel miserable, or offended or anything > other than good about who you are and what you do. Of course, that > could be why I have loads and loads of friendly acquaintances and no > real friends other than Colin. > > > > It's just a matter of deciding how important a friend is to you, > and whether you are actually important to them. Sometimes people > just use you without giving back, and then it's best to call it a > day. > > > > BB > > Jo To send an email to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2005 Hi Lynda Thanks for those links - I'll have a look when I get the chance. BB Peter - Lynda Monday, August 08, 2005 7:49 PM Re: Your imput please http://members.aol.com/Nowacumig/aim.html http://www.freepeltier.org/peltier11.htm http://siouxme.com/lodge/alcatraz_np.html http://siouxme.com/lodge/trudell.html The above links will give you a general idea. Along with that, I have clipped the following. Richard Oakes had more charisma than any 10 politicians at the time. Washington was scared spitless of his abilities. At Alcatraz, his daughter "fell" and was killed. That didn't stop Richard. Then the fires occured which effectively shut down Alcatraz. It didn't stop Richard. The following year: "September 21, 1972 - Richard Oakes dies of a gunshot wound in northern California at the age of 30. His killer, Michael Morgan, claims that Oakes had ambushed him. Although there is no evidence of a struggle, Morgan's attorneys argue self-defense before a jury of non-Native citizens. First Morgan is charged with murder then the charge is changed to involuntary manslaughter. In the end Morgan is freed, outraging the Indian community." Now, Morgan was not just some innocent that somehow got involved. What I find interesting is that all references to his history have "disappeared" from the net. Five years ago you could find out all about him and his violent history and association with some of the goon squad. Now you can't find anything about him. Lynda - Peter Monday, August 08, 2005 10:32 AM Re: Your imput please Hi Fraggle / Lynda > i assume she is talkin about the AIM(american indian movement) takeover of alcatraz island(the old site of the prison) from > 1969 to..umm..1971 i think... > i thought it more er less ended after the fires tho.... This all sounds thoroughly intriguing... any chance of either more detail, or some suggested reading?? BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2005 Ah, in my mind this says that the words and the conversation are not the problem, the person is. Blinders are a terrible thing to wear! One should not associate anything with a simple word. Then there is no room to ever grow. As powerful and hurtful as a word may be, it is up to each individual to insure their interpretation of anything is what the person who said it means. I am a vegan - to some this means I eat nothing but bark and grass - to others this means I am helping the world - to others, I am crazy etc Now, Vegan is an easier word to digest than Holocaust, but that stitl does not mean anyone has a right to judge me by my saying a single word This is a dangerous conversation and I am far behind in it. I am not fighting for or against the conversation or anyones belief. The only reason I replied to this message is I see both sides here. But if Lynda is correct and she is that some people do this, to me it is that person's fault. And if you judge me, by simple key words, and only remember those words and not what I was trying to say, you don't know me at all. And i think that goes for anyone anywhere. I feel sorry for those who cannot take the blinders off. Because no discussion, no matter how terrible, should ever be put into a broom closet and shoved away. (Tho some should be tamed on this group and they are. LOL) You know, there were a lot Germans that also suffered at that time. And least we forget the Lithuanians being killed by the Russians as well. People tend to only remember some things and not others. And I am not accusing anyone of that here. I am simply saying, if you are going to drag it out, listen to the big picture. Don't focus just on the small ones. That is how blinders get put on. This message is not directed at either person in this post. It is my reply to those who only remember those key words. I feel sorry for them. Nikki - who is trying to catch up , " Lynda " <lurine@s...> wrote: > Thanks for the giggle, Peter, but that simply shows you don't know me. > Being vegan or not isn't the reasoning. I've been in the activist life > style for over 50 years and it was about debate and how one reaches the most > people and how not to alienate people. > > It is good to challenge people's beliefs but one has to know one's audience. > > There are certain trigger words which shut down ALL conversation and > Holocaust is one of them. It doesn't make people think, it angers people > and generally turns them against whatever your cause is. > > As a First Nations member, I learned a long time ago that it does no good to > compare the geneocide in the Americas to the Holocaust *even though* the > geneocide meets the definition of holocaust and more folks were killed here > than there. AND, heaven forbid that you should ever mention that the > Holocaust, capital " H " wasn't just about Jews. > > Bottomline, Holocaust and Nazi are words that stop communication. People > don't go home to think about " what " you said. They go home and think about > " you " and the " word " you used. > > Lynda > - > Peter <metalscarab@c...> > > > > I think it is good to challenge people's beliefs. Perhaps your issue is > more > > that, as a non-vegan, you are having your beliefs questioned in a way > which > > makes you feel uncomfortable. The fact that you are continuing this > > conversation is evidence that you are thinking about the issues... so it > > seems that the analogy is having a very valid effect! > > > > BB > > Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2005 Hey Peter! I have no idea what you're talking about! Actually, thing is I can't zing you, because I strongly agree with you. Nothing is as " black and white " as people like to believe. Again, no in particular here. It's just so easy to label things into groups instead of looking at everything. I am not taking away from anyone's suffering here, just saying that there were alot of people that were affected by all of this. Nikki , " Peter " <metalscarab@c...> wrote: > Hi Anna > > > When I was taking U.S. history in college we were assigned the task of writing a letter to a Congressperson about any issue we > > wished. I was big into " discovering my heritage " at the time and wrote a letter complaining about the focus of the suffering of the > > Jews during the Holocaust and the lack of focus on other groups that were targeted, specifically my peeps, the Gypsies. > > (Incidentally, while the number of Gypsies murdered during the Holocaust was far less than the Jews, we suffered a greater > > percentage of decimation to our population.) My professor liked it and told me he'd give me extra credit if I actually mailed the > > letter. I was a rather cantankerous young grrl in those days, so just to be a beeyotch I sent it to Senator Feinstein. > > Unfortunately it is all too often forgotten that it wasn't just Jews who were persecuted by Nazis. In pure number, more Poles were killed than Jews, but we never hear of " The Polish Holocaust " , or, as you have highlighted, the Gypsy holocaust... or the gay holocaust, communist holocaust. Unfortunately, nowadays, when anyone points this out, they are automatically classified as " holocaust deniers " (take Peter Novak for example!!!). > > What really baffles me is that all those who take this stance are also automatically branded as being anti-semitic, as though the " holocaust " is somehow the justification of anti-Semitism being wrong... the implication seems to be that anti-Semitism would be fine if the holocaust did turn out to be a myth, and perhaps I'm strange (Nikki - just hold that thought), but I don't see it that way! > > BB > Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2005 Hi Jo Your response stopped me in my tracks, thank you! You're absolutely right. I do that all too often. And until now, I don't think I realized how much. I tell them what I think, but more carefully than I should need to. BB Nikki , " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote: > I think it is fairly obvious that Soliel's friend was not going to try to understand/belief what was said. The 'analogy' was made as a last attempt to make her think about it. It was the end of the line. This is what usually happens. > > It amazes me how we spend our time trying not to upset people about their animal-eating, and how we try to avoid telling them exactly how badly we think of them for doing so. > > Jo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2005 Hi Jo Now that sounds like a lot of fun! Tell you what, if I ever do win that lottery and it is a good amount, I'll fly us all somewhere to meet! BB Nikki , " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote: > Hi Nikki > > What you say is true. I think the internet is marvellous for chatting to > people. You can get to know people rather well. My daughter made friends > on the internet and went to the States to meet them and then the whole group > went to France for the next year's holiday to stay with one of the women > they chatted with online. > > Jo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2005 Hi Nikki As you rightly say, it is a shame if people here a word and closedown. The holocaust was a terrible thing and should never happen again - but it was not the only terrible thing to happen, and we should not ignore the rest. BB Jo - " earthstrm " <nikkimack Tuesday, August 09, 2005 1:51 PM Re: Your imput please Ah, in my mind this says that the words and the conversation are not the problem, the person is. Blinders are a terrible thing to wear! One should not associate anything with a simple word. Then there is no room to ever grow. As powerful and hurtful as a word may be, it is up to each individual to insure their interpretation of anything is what the person who said it means. I am a vegan - to some this means I eat nothing but bark and grass - to others this means I am helping the world - to others, I am crazy etc Now, Vegan is an easier word to digest than Holocaust, but that stitl does not mean anyone has a right to judge me by my saying a single word This is a dangerous conversation and I am far behind in it. I am not fighting for or against the conversation or anyones belief. The only reason I replied to this message is I see both sides here. But if Lynda is correct and she is that some people do this, to me it is that person's fault. And if you judge me, by simple key words, and only remember those words and not what I was trying to say, you don't know me at all. And i think that goes for anyone anywhere. I feel sorry for those who cannot take the blinders off. Because no discussion, no matter how terrible, should ever be put into a broom closet and shoved away. (Tho some should be tamed on this group and they are. LOL) You know, there were a lot Germans that also suffered at that time. And least we forget the Lithuanians being killed by the Russians as well. People tend to only remember some things and not others. And I am not accusing anyone of that here. I am simply saying, if you are going to drag it out, listen to the big picture. Don't focus just on the small ones. That is how blinders get put on. This message is not directed at either person in this post. It is my reply to those who only remember those key words. I feel sorry for them. Nikki - who is trying to catch up , " Lynda " <lurine@s...> wrote: > Thanks for the giggle, Peter, but that simply shows you don't know me. > Being vegan or not isn't the reasoning. I've been in the activist life > style for over 50 years and it was about debate and how one reaches the most > people and how not to alienate people. > > It is good to challenge people's beliefs but one has to know one's audience. > > There are certain trigger words which shut down ALL conversation and > Holocaust is one of them. It doesn't make people think, it angers people > and generally turns them against whatever your cause is. > > As a First Nations member, I learned a long time ago that it does no good to > compare the geneocide in the Americas to the Holocaust *even though* the > geneocide meets the definition of holocaust and more folks were killed here > than there. AND, heaven forbid that you should ever mention that the > Holocaust, capital " H " wasn't just about Jews. > > Bottomline, Holocaust and Nazi are words that stop communication. People > don't go home to think about " what " you said. They go home and think about > " you " and the " word " you used. > > Lynda > - > Peter <metalscarab@c...> > > > > I think it is good to challenge people's beliefs. Perhaps your issue is > more > > that, as a non-vegan, you are having your beliefs questioned in a way > which > > makes you feel uncomfortable. The fact that you are continuing this > > conversation is evidence that you are thinking about the issues... so it > > seems that the analogy is having a very valid effect! > > > > BB > > Peter To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2005 I first realised I was doing this when a friend asked me what I thought of her for eating meat. I squirmed because I really like her, but obviously don't like her eating meat. I couldn't tell her that I thought she was absolutely disgusting and should know better. I just wished she hadn't asked and after a few moments asked her how she would feel if all the people around her ate other people, and what she would say if she was asked how she felt about it. Her face dropped and after a minute's silent contemplation the subject was changed. BB Jo - " earthstrm " <nikkimack Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:44 PM Re: Your imput please Hi Jo Your response stopped me in my tracks, thank you! You're absolutely right. I do that all too often. And until now, I don't think I realized how much. I tell them what I think, but more carefully than I should need to. BB Nikki , " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote: > I think it is fairly obvious that Soliel's friend was not going to try to understand/belief what was said. The 'analogy' was made as a last attempt to make her think about it. It was the end of the line. This is what usually happens. > > It amazes me how we spend our time trying not to upset people about their animal-eating, and how we try to avoid telling them exactly how badly we think of them for doing so. > > Jo To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 9, 2005 My standard answer when folks ask questions that they don't really want you to give them an honest answer to is " Do you want the truth or a lie. " They usually figure it out and say, " Oh, never mind. " Lynda - Jo Cwazy <heartwork Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:06 PM Re: Re: Your imput please > I first realised I was doing this when a friend asked me what I thought of > her for eating meat. I squirmed because I really like her, but obviously > don't like her eating meat. I couldn't tell her that I thought she was > absolutely disgusting and should know better. I just wished she hadn't > asked and after a few moments asked her how she would feel if all the people > around her ate other people, and what she would say if she was asked how she > felt about it. Her face dropped and after a minute's silent contemplation > the subject was changed. > > BB > Jo -- Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2005 " asked her how she would feel if all the people around her ate other people, " That just reminds of a line from a TV show that cracked me up. A vegetarian was trying to help out a friend by convinving some ducks to leave the friend's pool. She walks into the yard where her husband is barbecuing and says " Please don't tell that's what I think it is. " Her husband responds " Hey, if you smelled barbecuing people, would you hang around? " Love, Anna > [Original Message] > Jo Cwazy <heartwork > > 8/9/2005 3:25:15 PM > Re: Re: Your imput please > > I first realised I was doing this when a friend asked me what I thought of > her for eating meat. I squirmed because I really like her, but obviously > don't like her eating meat. I couldn't tell her that I thought she was > absolutely disgusting and should know better. I just wished she hadn't > asked and after a few moments asked her how she would feel if all the people > around her ate other people, and what she would say if she was asked how she > felt about it. Her face dropped and after a minute's silent contemplation > the subject was changed. > > BB > Jo > - > " earthstrm " <nikkimack > > Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:44 PM > Re: Your imput please > > > Hi Jo > > Your response stopped me in my tracks, thank you! You're absolutely > right. > > I do that all too often. And until now, I don't think I realized how > much. I tell them what I think, but more carefully than I should need > to. > > BB > Nikki > > , " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote: > > I think it is fairly obvious that Soliel's friend was not going to > try to understand/belief what was said. The 'analogy' was made as a > last attempt to make her think about it. It was the end of the line. > This is what usually happens. > > > > It amazes me how we spend our time trying not to upset people about > their animal-eating, and how we try to avoid telling them exactly how > badly we think of them for doing so. > > > > Jo To send an email to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2005 That's a good answer too. Jo > My standard answer when folks ask questions that they don't really want you > to give them an honest answer to is " Do you want the truth or a lie. " They > usually figure it out and say, " Oh, never mind. " > > Lynda > - > Jo Cwazy <heartwork > > Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:06 PM > Re: Re: Your imput please > > > > I first realised I was doing this when a friend asked me what I thought of > > her for eating meat. I squirmed because I really like her, but obviously > > don't like her eating meat. I couldn't tell her that I thought she was > > absolutely disgusting and should know better. I just wished she hadn't > > asked and after a few moments asked her how she would feel if all the > people > > around her ate other people, and what she would say if she was asked how > she > > felt about it. Her face dropped and after a minute's silent contemplation > > the subject was changed. > > > > BB > > Jo > > > > > -- > > > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05 > > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 10, 2005 Hi Nikki That would be good fun - although I guess some of us might bicker with each other - but it would be good anyway. Jo > Hi Jo > > Now that sounds like a lot of fun! > > Tell you what, if I ever do win that lottery and it is a good > amount, I'll fly us all somewhere to meet! > > BB > Nikki Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2005 Hi Jo Very true, but that would be ok because I'm sure we could all keep it to a polite bicker. And if not, they go to the " time out chair " . BB Nikki , " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote: > Hi Nikki > > That would be good fun - although I guess some of us might bicker with each > other - but it would be good anyway. > > Jo > > > > Hi Jo > > > > Now that sounds like a lot of fun! > > > > Tell you what, if I ever do win that lottery and it is a good > > amount, I'll fly us all somewhere to meet! > > > > BB > > Nikki Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 11, 2005 Hi Nikki We would manage it. BB Jo , " earthstrm " <nikkimack@m...> wrote: > Hi Jo > > Very true, but that would be ok because I'm sure we could all keep > it to a polite bicker. And if not, they go to the " time out chair " . > > BB > Nikki > > , " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote: > > Hi Nikki > > > > That would be good fun - although I guess some of us might bicker > with each > > other - but it would be good anyway. > > > > Jo > > > > > > > Hi Jo > > > > > > Now that sounds like a lot of fun! > > > > > > Tell you what, if I ever do win that lottery and it is a good > > > amount, I'll fly us all somewhere to meet! > > > > > > BB > > > Nikki Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
