So, how bad did I screw up?

[Guest guest]

Hey, Talisman. The studies/books you are looking for are "The Okinawa Diet" that was mentioned here a few days ago ("It means filling your plate with nutrient-dense, calorie-starved foods such as soy, fruits, vegetables, sprouts, broth-based soups, seaweed, konnyaku (a plant jelly), sweet potatoes, lean poultry and fish, beans, grains and yogurt") and "French Women Don't Get Fat: The Secret of Eating for Pleasure," by Mireille Guiliano.

 

And it has been found, not by the dairy industry or funded by the dairy industry, btw, that stick margarine is far more deadly than butter, particularly for women.

 

Lynda

 

-

ChemGeek

 

Jo I never said that the diet itself is unhealthy, I said that some of the foods I eat are less healthy than their dairy counterparts. This is true. Mono and Di-glycerides are NOT healthy for you and are found in many of the dairy alternatives. (Ice cream, sour cream, cream cheese and I believe mayo but don't quote me on the last one)

 

I also said that I don't believe that a diet rich in fruits/vegetables/whole grains with modest amounts of organic meats/dairy is a death trap like many veg*ns try to portray. I live in a very "granola" town and I hear quite often all the hellfire and brimstone veg*nism propaganda.

 

Finally I said that I believe that both extreme omni-advocates and extreme vegan-advocates taint the truth to fit their agenda. This isn't an uncommon practice in any realm; people want life to be black and white and it's not.

 

I have seen data that says a vegan diet is unhealthy, do I believe it? No, I think they are full of shit. You can't tell me you have never heard some doctor say it's impossible to get enough *insert something here* with a totally vegan diet. It's again a case of where people want black and white. Let me put it this way... A vegan sees an article about how vegan lifestyle is unhealthy period end of sentence.. they say bullshit. that same vegan sees an article about how meat eating is unhealthy period end of sentence, and they say "Damn right." My point was that you cannot totally dismiss data that says your particular lifestyle is "bad" without at least giving a bit of consideration that the other lifestyle has the potential to NOT be "bad" as you want to believe.

 

I have yet to see any study done on a true "rounded" diet (rich in fruits/veggies etc... modest in meat). I honestly would love to read one. The fact is, most americans are wolfing down meat/dairy at such an alarming rate, it's no wonder that studies show that meat eating is frightening for your body. The average american eats french fries and ketchup as their primary source of vegetables.

 

So while I think that veganism is a very healthy diet, I'm not going to deny that it is possible to also have a healthy diet while eating meat/dairy. (Although, I have to say that I believe it would have to be organic meats/dairy cuz the hormone/antibiotic thing freaks me out). I also am not going to deny that some of the things I enjoy, such as tofutti cuties, are not healthy for me based on the fact that it has mono and di-glycerides.

 

Bottom line: I think it's unfair to say that "just because it's vegan it must be healthy and just because it's meat/dairy it's automatically unhealthy."

 

TalismanTo send an email to -

[Guest guest]

just cuz something doesn't come from animals, don't mean its healthy

i think we are all confusing "my gawd ITS VEGAN!", with a vegan diet

just cuz i can eat something doesn't mean i'm going to....

anti-freeze is vegan....

 

 

 

 

 

And it has been found, not by the dairy industry or funded by the dairy industry, btw, that stick margarine is far more deadly than butter, particularly for women.

 

Lynda

 

-----

Those who control the past, control the future; Those who control the future, control the present; Those who control the present, control the past.^

[Guest guest]

just cuz something doesn't come from animals, don't mean its healthy i think we are all confusing "my gawd ITS VEGAN!", with a vegan diet just cuz i can eat something doesn't mean i'm going to.... anti-freeze is vegan....

 

If you are speaking about Ethylene glycol anti-freeze that goes in a car, it is an unfair comparison. That type of antifreeze isn't marketed as something for human consumption. However there is a type of antifreeze, propylene glycol that is used in food, food coloring, medicines and cosmetics as well as pipes in homes etc... that is supposedly safe. So chances are you have eaten antifreeze.

 

What's the difference between "my gawd ITS VEGAN!" and what vegans eat? Most vegans I know use margarine, most vegans I know eat tofutti products (I'm not picking on tofutti it's just a product I'm well versed with), most vegans I know eat soy (which some people say isn't safe) etc... Tofutti's cream cheese substitute is called "Better Than Cream Cheese" for goodness sake. It does give a false impression that this product is much healthier than regular cream cheese.

 

And I agree, just because something doesn't come from animals, doesn't mean it is healthy. However people are given false impressions about certain products. Take PeTA for example..while they are primarily an animal advocate group they do pimp the "health benefits" of being a veg*n. In the "Vegetarian Starter Kit" there's an entire page dedicated to the health dangers of eating dairy and meat. In their "Vegetarian Starter Kit" they tell you to use margarine, tofutti ice cream, soy milk, etc... without even mentioning the fact they contain dangerous mono and di-glycerides as well and how they should really only be used sparingly. So while you may not eat something just because it's vegan, many people do and do so unbeknownst to the hidden dangers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Talisman

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actinide Chemistry Graduate Student 2004ICP-MS and Radioactive Isotope User

 

 

 

 

Master Alchemist Gamma Mu ColonyAlpha Chi Sigma FraternityHeading to Notre Dame Fall 2005!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

If you buy cheap margarine it is unhealthy. If you buy margarines made from cold-pressed oils that are unhydrogenated with the correct mix of essential fatty acids, they will be more healthy than butter. Butter is not good for people, male or female because of the saturated fat, the traces or hormones and antibiotics that the animals are treated with, not to mention the pus. If you replace butter with margarine as described above, with ingredients that do not yield transfatty acids, you will be doing your body a favour.

 

Jo

 

-

Lynda

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 9:29 PM

Re: So, how bad did I screw up?

 

Hey, Talisman. The studies/books you are looking for are "The Okinawa Diet" that was mentioned here a few days ago ("It means filling your plate with nutrient-dense, calorie-starved foods such as soy, fruits, vegetables, sprouts, broth-based soups, seaweed, konnyaku (a plant jelly), sweet potatoes, lean poultry and fish, beans, grains and yogurt") and "French Women Don't Get Fat: The Secret of Eating for Pleasure," by Mireille Guiliano.

 

And it has been found, not by the dairy industry or funded by the dairy industry, btw, that stick margarine is far more deadly than butter, particularly for women.

 

Lynda

 

-

ChemGeek

 

Jo I never said that the diet itself is unhealthy, I said that some of the foods I eat are less healthy than their dairy counterparts. This is true. Mono and Di-glycerides are NOT healthy for you and are found in many of the dairy alternatives. (Ice cream, sour cream, cream cheese and I believe mayo but don't quote me on the last one)

 

I also said that I don't believe that a diet rich in fruits/vegetables/whole grains with modest amounts of organic meats/dairy is a death trap like many veg*ns try to portray. I live in a very "granola" town and I hear quite often all the hellfire and brimstone veg*nism propaganda.

 

Finally I said that I believe that both extreme omni-advocates and extreme vegan-advocates taint the truth to fit their agenda. This isn't an uncommon practice in any realm; people want life to be black and white and it's not.

 

I have seen data that says a vegan diet is unhealthy, do I believe it? No, I think they are full of shit. You can't tell me you have never heard some doctor say it's impossible to get enough *insert something here* with a totally vegan diet. It's again a case of where people want black and white. Let me put it this way... A vegan sees an article about how vegan lifestyle is unhealthy period end of sentence.. they say bullshit. that same vegan sees an article about how meat eating is unhealthy period end of sentence, and they say "Damn right." My point was that you cannot totally dismiss data that says your particular lifestyle is "bad" without at least giving a bit of consideration that the other lifestyle has the potential to NOT be "bad" as you want to believe.

 

I have yet to see any study done on a true "rounded" diet (rich in fruits/veggies etc... modest in meat). I honestly would love to read one. The fact is, most americans are wolfing down meat/dairy at such an alarming rate, it's no wonder that studies show that meat eating is frightening for your body. The average american eats french fries and ketchup as their primary source of vegetables.

 

So while I think that veganism is a very healthy diet, I'm not going to deny that it is possible to also have a healthy diet while eating meat/dairy. (Although, I have to say that I believe it would have to be organic meats/dairy cuz the hormone/antibiotic thing freaks me out). I also am not going to deny that some of the things I enjoy, such as tofutti cuties, are not healthy for me based on the fact that it has mono and di-glycerides.

 

Bottom line: I think it's unfair to say that "just because it's vegan it must be healthy and just because it's meat/dairy it's automatically unhealthy."

 

TalismanTo send an email to - To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

That is true Fraggle - but it doesn't mean a food is unhealthy just because it doesn't come from animals. There are lots of unhealthy vegan foods, just as unhealthy as most animal-derived foods. There are also lots of super-healthy vegan foods. Someone who eats rubbish will do so whether they are vegan or not.

 

-

fraggle

Thursday, May 19, 2005 12:49 AM

Re: So, how bad did I screw up?

 

just cuz something doesn't come from animals, don't mean its healthy

i think we are all confusing "my gawd ITS VEGAN!", with a vegan diet

just cuz i can eat something doesn't mean i'm going to....

anti-freeze is vegan....

 

 

 

 

 

And it has been found, not by the dairy industry or funded by the dairy industry, btw, that stick margarine is far more deadly than butter, particularly for women.

 

Lynda

 

----- To send an email to -

Those who control the past, control the future; Those who control the future, control the present; Those who control the present, control the past.^

[Guest guest]

The only ~research~ I am aware of that says that soy is not safe has been funded by the meat and milk industries. All the research I have read says soy is good for you, regulates hormones. Population studies show that people who eat over a certain amount of soy have a lot less breast and prostate cancer for a start. At one time it was argued that eating soy was bad for children because of the phytoestrogens, but this argument has now been laid to rest. If it was bad for children, there wouldn't be any healthy adults in the populations that consume a lot of soy, and yet these same populations are healthier than meat eating populations.

 

Jo

 

-

ChemGeek

Thursday, May 19, 2005 1:19 AM

Re: So, how bad did I screw up?

 

just cuz something doesn't come from animals, don't mean its healthy i think we are all confusing "my gawd ITS VEGAN!", with a vegan diet just cuz i can eat something doesn't mean i'm going to.... anti-freeze is vegan....

 

If you are speaking about Ethylene glycol anti-freeze that goes in a car, it is an unfair comparison. That type of antifreeze isn't marketed as something for human consumption. However there is a type of antifreeze, propylene glycol that is used in food, food coloring, medicines and cosmetics as well as pipes in homes etc... that is supposedly safe. So chances are you have eaten antifreeze.

 

What's the difference between "my gawd ITS VEGAN!" and what vegans eat? Most vegans I know use margarine, most vegans I know eat tofutti products (I'm not picking on tofutti it's just a product I'm well versed with), most vegans I know eat soy (which some people say isn't safe) etc... Tofutti's cream cheese substitute is called "Better Than Cream Cheese" for goodness sake. It does give a false impression that this product is much healthier than regular cream cheese.

 

And I agree, just because something doesn't come from animals, doesn't mean it is healthy. However people are given false impressions about certain products. Take PeTA for example..while they are primarily an animal advocate group they do pimp the "health benefits" of being a veg*n. In the "Vegetarian Starter Kit" there's an entire page dedicated to the health dangers of eating dairy and meat. In their "Vegetarian Starter Kit" they tell you to use margarine, tofutti ice cream, soy milk, etc... without even mentioning the fact they contain dangerous mono and di-glycerides as well and how they should really only be used sparingly. So while you may not eat something just because it's vegan, many people do and do so unbeknownst to the hidden dangers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Talisman

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actinide Chemistry Graduate Student 2004ICP-MS and Radioactive Isotope User

 

 

 

 

Master Alchemist Gamma Mu ColonyAlpha Chi Sigma FraternityHeading to Notre Dame Fall 2005!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

For me it's not that " black & white " . The hubby is a carnivore. Zak

will not eat enough veggies, fruits, rice, beans to sustain him,

he'll try things (with a bit of a struggle) but not enough to see

him through to age 7. And I don't know enough about child nutrition

in the vegan or even vegetarian sense to be able to keep him afloat

on the few things he'll eat.

 

I am happy with trying to teach him slowly. Strike that, not happy,

but accept it and keep trying. Keep working with him, keep teaching,

keep leading my example and continue learning all I can.

 

It was an agreement with my hubby long ago. He supported and

continues to support my decision to become a vegan. He even takes

steps further and helps me to think of new meals to create. He tries

and enjoys some of my dishes. He helps me to get Zak to try new

dishes that are soy based meat substitutes etc. But at no point will

I force my views upon him and he will never ask me to go back. In

this agreement, I also stated that at this point, I will try to get

Zak to eat more vegan or even vegetarian meals, but at no point will

I ever put him in danger of malnutrition. Not that this is what you

are suggesting, because I know you better than that. Just that it is

a tough line here.

 

And I do not look at it as forcing him one way or another. I look at

it as trying to change what I can when I can. Continue introducing

new things, continue asking Zak to have one bite of something he

doesn't like everyday until he gets use to it. (Namely brocolli,

carrots, etc.) Continuing to ask him to work with me in the garden

so he enjoys these things more. Continuing to hide the fact it is

soy meat and not real meat. And just continuing to try.

 

BB

Nikki

 

, metalscarab@c... wrote:

> Hi Talisman

>

> > It's also the reason I am not raising my children vegan. My 7

year old

> > recently chose to go vegetarian (yay!) after putting 1 and 1

together and

> > realizing where meat came from. But I don't believe in pushing

my beliefs

> > onto someone.

>

> I always find this an interesting concept... vegan parents don't

want to

> " force their views " onto their children by feeding them a vegan

diet, but

> are quite happy to force someone else's views by feeding them a

meat based

> diet.

>

> Since we have to make choices for our children until they are old

enough

> to make choices for themselves, it always seems curious to me that

we

> (vegans) advertise to the world that we feel our diet is " wrong " by

> feeding our children a meat-based diet because we don't want

to " force "

> our opinions on them. By feeding them meat, we are just forcing

someone

> else's opinion on them, and feeding them a less healthy diet in the

> process!

>

> BB

> Peter

[Guest guest]

Dark chocolate isn't rubbish, right?

 

Someone, please! QUICK!

 

It's not, right? It has antioxidants!!!

 

Right? RIGHT??

 

Oh no.......................

 

 

Nikki

*calming herself down with a nice piece of dark chocolate*

 

 

, " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote:

> That is true Fraggle - but it doesn't mean a food is unhealthy

just because it doesn't come from animals. There are lots of

unhealthy vegan foods, just as unhealthy as most animal-derived

foods. There are also lots of super-healthy vegan foods. Someone

who eats rubbish will do so whether they are vegan or not.

> -

> fraggle

>

> Thursday, May 19, 2005 12:49 AM

> Re: So, how bad did I screw up?

>

>

> just cuz something doesn't come from animals, don't mean its

healthy

> i think we are all confusing " my gawd ITS VEGAN! " , with a vegan

diet

> just cuz i can eat something doesn't mean i'm going to....

> anti-freeze is vegan....

>

>

<<SNIP>>

[Guest guest]

Nikki

 

Dark chocolate is full of antioxidants and the recommended dose is three and

a half ounces a day. Apparently it lowers blood pressure, and has the same

advantages as red wine (1 or 2 glasses a day) and red grape juice. So, as

long as you stick to the recommended dose - it is good for you. If you add

milk to the chocolate, it apparently negates all the benefits - as if we

didn't know that :-)

 

Enjoy your chocolate.

 

Jo

 

 

-

" nikki_mackovitch " <nikkimack

 

Thursday, May 19, 2005 11:53 AM

Re: So, how bad did I screw up?

 

 

> Dark chocolate isn't rubbish, right?

>

> Someone, please! QUICK!

>

> It's not, right? It has antioxidants!!!

>

> Right? RIGHT??

>

> Oh no.......................

>

>

> Nikki

> *calming herself down with a nice piece of dark chocolate*

>

>

> , " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote:

> > That is true Fraggle - but it doesn't mean a food is unhealthy

> just because it doesn't come from animals. There are lots of

> unhealthy vegan foods, just as unhealthy as most animal-derived

> foods. There are also lots of super-healthy vegan foods. Someone

> who eats rubbish will do so whether they are vegan or not.

> > -

> > fraggle

> >

> > Thursday, May 19, 2005 12:49 AM

> > Re: So, how bad did I screw up?

> >

> >

> > just cuz something doesn't come from animals, don't mean its

> healthy

> > i think we are all confusing " my gawd ITS VEGAN! " , with a vegan

> diet

> > just cuz i can eat something doesn't mean i'm going to....

> > anti-freeze is vegan....

> >

> >

> <<SNIP>To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

It is a lot more difficult with a 'mixed' marriage :-) I'm sure you are

doing your best, and hopefully your example will be considered when your son

is older.

 

BB

Jo

 

-

" nikki_mackovitch " <nikkimack

 

Thursday, May 19, 2005 11:34 AM

Re: So, how bad did I screw up?

 

 

> Hi Peter

>

> For me it's not that " black & white " . The hubby is a carnivore. Zak

> will not eat enough veggies, fruits, rice, beans to sustain him,

> he'll try things (with a bit of a struggle) but not enough to see

> him through to age 7. And I don't know enough about child nutrition

> in the vegan or even vegetarian sense to be able to keep him afloat

> on the few things he'll eat.

>

> I am happy with trying to teach him slowly. Strike that, not happy,

> but accept it and keep trying. Keep working with him, keep teaching,

> keep leading my example and continue learning all I can.

>

> It was an agreement with my hubby long ago. He supported and

> continues to support my decision to become a vegan. He even takes

> steps further and helps me to think of new meals to create. He tries

> and enjoys some of my dishes. He helps me to get Zak to try new

> dishes that are soy based meat substitutes etc. But at no point will

> I force my views upon him and he will never ask me to go back. In

> this agreement, I also stated that at this point, I will try to get

> Zak to eat more vegan or even vegetarian meals, but at no point will

> I ever put him in danger of malnutrition. Not that this is what you

> are suggesting, because I know you better than that. Just that it is

> a tough line here.

>

> And I do not look at it as forcing him one way or another. I look at

> it as trying to change what I can when I can. Continue introducing

> new things, continue asking Zak to have one bite of something he

> doesn't like everyday until he gets use to it. (Namely brocolli,

> carrots, etc.) Continuing to ask him to work with me in the garden

> so he enjoys these things more. Continuing to hide the fact it is

> soy meat and not real meat. And just continuing to try.

>

> BB

> Nikki

>

> , metalscarab@c... wrote:

> > Hi Talisman

> >

> > > It's also the reason I am not raising my children vegan. My 7

> year old

> > > recently chose to go vegetarian (yay!) after putting 1 and 1

> together and

> > > realizing where meat came from. But I don't believe in pushing

> my beliefs

> > > onto someone.

> >

> > I always find this an interesting concept... vegan parents don't

> want to

> > " force their views " onto their children by feeding them a vegan

> diet, but

> > are quite happy to force someone else's views by feeding them a

> meat based

> > diet.

> >

> > Since we have to make choices for our children until they are old

> enough

> > to make choices for themselves, it always seems curious to me that

> we

> > (vegans) advertise to the world that we feel our diet is " wrong " by

> > feeding our children a meat-based diet because we don't want

> to " force "

> > our opinions on them. By feeding them meat, we are just forcing

> someone

> > else's opinion on them, and feeding them a less healthy diet in the

> > process!

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

>

>

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

John McDougall, a huge vegan advocated, says that eating soy beyond anything "occasional" is actually dangerous to your health. Now he's a hellfire and brimstone anti-dairy advocate, so for him to come out and say stuff is somewhat worrisome to me.

 

 

 

-

Jo Cwazy

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 11:16 PM

Re: So, how bad did I screw up?

 

The only ~research~ I am aware of that says that soy is not safe has been funded by the meat and milk industries. All the research I have read says soy is good for you, regulates hormones. Population studies show that people who eat over a certain amount of soy have a lot less breast and prostate cancer for a start. At one time it was argued that eating soy was bad for children because of the phytoestrogens, but this argument has now been laid to rest. If it was bad for children, there wouldn't be any healthy adults in the populations that consume a lot of soy, and yet these same populations are healthier than meat eating populations.

 

Jo

 

-

ChemGeek

Thursday, May 19, 2005 1:19 AM

Re: So, how bad did I screw up?

 

just cuz something doesn't come from animals, don't mean its healthy i think we are all confusing "my gawd ITS VEGAN!", with a vegan diet just cuz i can eat something doesn't mean i'm going to.... anti-freeze is vegan....

 

If you are speaking about Ethylene glycol anti-freeze that goes in a car, it is an unfair comparison. That type of antifreeze isn't marketed as something for human consumption. However there is a type of antifreeze, propylene glycol that is used in food, food coloring, medicines and cosmetics as well as pipes in homes etc... that is supposedly safe. So chances are you have eaten antifreeze.

 

What's the difference between "my gawd ITS VEGAN!" and what vegans eat? Most vegans I know use margarine, most vegans I know eat tofutti products (I'm not picking on tofutti it's just a product I'm well versed with), most vegans I know eat soy (which some people say isn't safe) etc... Tofutti's cream cheese substitute is called "Better Than Cream Cheese" for goodness sake. It does give a false impression that this product is much healthier than regular cream cheese.

 

And I agree, just because something doesn't come from animals, doesn't mean it is healthy. However people are given false impressions about certain products. Take PeTA for example..while they are primarily an animal advocate group they do pimp the "health benefits" of being a veg*n. In the "Vegetarian Starter Kit" there's an entire page dedicated to the health dangers of eating dairy and meat. In their "Vegetarian Starter Kit" they tell you to use margarine, tofutti ice cream, soy milk, etc... without even mentioning the fact they contain dangerous mono and di-glycerides as well and how they should really only be used sparingly. So while you may not eat something just because it's vegan, many people do and do so unbeknownst to the hidden dangers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Talisman

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actinide Chemistry Graduate Student 2004ICP-MS and Radioactive Isotope User

 

 

 

 

Master Alchemist Gamma Mu ColonyAlpha Chi Sigma FraternityHeading to Notre Dame Fall 2005!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To send an email to - To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynda

 

> And it has been found, not by the dairy industry or funded by the dairy industry, btw, that stick margarine is far

> more deadly than butter, particularly for women.

 

What is this obsession you have with butter? It's about the third time in a week that you've posted harping on about how wonderful butter is. This is a *vegan* list you know.

 

And incidentally, good quality margarine is way healthier than butter - it's only the cheap stuff with di-glycerides and the like in it that aren't good for you. You might as well argue that vegetables aren't as healthy as meat because the McDonalds veggieburger can be shown to be more dangerous fish.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Nikki

 

> For me it's not that " black & white " . The hubby is a carnivore. Zak

> will not eat enough veggies, fruits, rice, beans to sustain him,

> he'll try things (with a bit of a struggle) but not enough to see

> him through to age 7. And I don't know enough about child nutrition

> in the vegan or even vegetarian sense to be able to keep him afloat

> on the few things he'll eat.

 

Of course, your situation is another sort - because, IIRC, you had children

before you went vegan, so they have probably already got used to the diet

they got fed when younger... I would have hated the idea of becoming vegan

as a child, but if I'd been vegan from birth, I probably wouldn't have

noticed :-)

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Nikki

 

> Dark chocolate isn't rubbish, right?

> Someone, please! QUICK!

> It's not, right? It has antioxidants!!!

> Right? RIGHT??

> Oh no.......................

 

I read something recently that has shown that dark chocolate is good for

blood pressure - so you should be safe... just make sure you brush your

teeth :-)

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Talisman

 

> John McDougall, a huge vegan advocated, says that eating soy beyond anything "occasional" is actually dangerous to your

> health. Now he's a hellfire and brimstone anti-dairy advocate, so for him to come out and say stuff is somewhat worrisome to

> me.

 

Since I've never heard of John McDougall, could you fill in a couple of facts for me... what is his "position" within the scientific / research community? What research papers has he published to back up this claim? Is he actually vegan, or just anti-dairy? (I know several meat eaters who don't touch dairy because of the health effects)

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Since I've never heard of John McDougall, could you fill in a couple of facts for me... what is his "position" within the scientific / research community? What research papers has he published to back up this claim? Is he actually vegan, or just anti-dairy? (I know several meat eaters who don't touch dairy because of the health effects)

 

He's an MD who has "developed" a "weightloss" plan that is more or less akin to a whole foods diet. (I think that is how you would describe it). As far as research papers, if you are talking about peer reviewed articles in a journal, I am not 100% sure. He is sponsored by this website I hang out on called vegsource and so that's the only real reason I know who he is. He goes to their confrences and "preaches" stuff. He is a vegan and has been for a long time.

 

Here's one of his presentations at a vegsource convention regarding dairy:

 

http://www.vegsource.com/video/mcdougall.htm

 

It's over an hour long and I'll be honest I got a bit bored watching it but it does give his position on dairy etc..

 

Here's his main website:

 

http://www.drmcdougall.com/

 

I believe the "article" about dairy is in his April 2005 newsletter. The only reason I became aware of this soy stance is because it became a small discussion on the "soy" board on Vegsource and I honestly wish it had become more in-depth but vegsource has rules about umm... how do I explain it.... Since he has a board on vegsource you can't talk about his stuff on another vegsource board. Does that make sense? So the discussion went no where and many of the discussion posts were deleted from what I have been told.

 

If everyone wants to read it and discuss it here I wouldn't mind at all because I think it would be very enlightening.

 

Talis

[Guest guest]

amke sure its organic fair trade chocolate not harvested by 9 yr old slaves!!!

 

yup..thats me..gotta throw a monkey wrench int o everything Jo Cwazy May 19, 2005 5:08 AM Re: Re: So, how bad did I screw up? NikkiDark chocolate is full of antioxidants and the recommended dose is three anda half ounces a day. Apparently it lowers blood pressure, and has the sameadvantages as red wine (1 or 2 glasses a day) and red grape juice. So, aslong as you stick to the recommended dose - it is good for you. If you addmilk to the chocolate, it apparently negates all the benefits - as if wedidn't know that :-)Enjoy your chocolate.Jo-"nikki_mackovitch" <nikkimackThursday, May 19, 2005 11:53 AM Re: So, how bad did I screw up?> Dark chocolate isn't rubbish, right?>> Someone, please! QUICK!>> It's not, right? It has antioxidants!!!>> Right? RIGHT??>> Oh no.......................>>> Nikki> *calming herself down with a nice piece of dark chocolate*>>> , "Jo Cwazy" <heartwork@c...> wrote:> > That is true Fraggle - but it doesn't mean a food is unhealthy> just because it doesn't come from animals. There are lots of> unhealthy vegan foods, just as unhealthy as most animal-derived> foods. There are also lots of super-healthy vegan foods. Someone> who eats rubbish will do so whether they are vegan or not.> > -> > fraggle> > > > Thursday, May 19, 2005 12:49 AM> > Re: So, how bad did I screw up?> >> >> > just cuz something doesn't come from animals, don't mean its> healthy> > i think we are all confusing "my gawd ITS VEGAN!", with a vegan> diet> > just cuz i can eat something doesn't mean i'm going to....> > anti-freeze is vegan....> >> >> <<SNIP>>>>>>>> To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

Bad Fraggle. That stuff is soooooo good that chocolate haters have been known to become addicted!

 

Melt it with a little organic corn syrup in one of those old fondue pots and dip in your organic strawberries. Yummmmmmm!!!!

 

Lynda

 

-

fraggle

Thursday, May 19, 2005 2:38 PM

Re: Re: So, how bad did I screw up?

 

amke sure its organic fair trade chocolate not harvested by 9 yr old slaves!!!

 

yup..thats me..gotta throw a monkey wrench int o everything Jo Cwazy May 19, 2005 5:08 AM Re: Re: So, how bad did I screw up? NikkiDark chocolate is full of antioxidants and the recommended dose is three anda half ounces a day. Apparently it lowers blood pressure, and has the sameadvantages as red wine (1 or 2 glasses a day) and red grape juice. So, aslong as you stick to the recommended dose - it is good for you. If you addmilk to the chocolate, it apparently negates all the benefits - as if wedidn't know that :-)Enjoy your chocolate.Jo-"nikki_mackovitch" <nikkimackThursday, May 19, 2005 11:53 AM Re: S o, how bad did I screw up?> Dark chocolate isn't rubbish, right?>> Someone, please! QUICK!>> It's not, right? It has antioxidants!!!>> Right? RIGHT??>> Oh no.......................>>> Nikki> *calming herself down with a nice piece of dark chocolate*>>> , "Jo Cwazy" <heartwork@c...> wrote:> > That is true Fraggle - but it doesn't mean a food is unhealthy> just because it doesn't come from animals. There are lots of> unhealthy vegan foods, just as unhealthy as most animal-derived> foods. There are also lots of super-healthy vegan foods. Someone> who eats rubbish will do so whether they are vegan or not.> > -> > fraggle> > > > & nbs p; Thursday, May 19, 2005 12:49 AM> > Re: So, how bad did I screw up?> >> >> > just cuz something doesn't come from animals, don't mean its> healthy> > i think we are all confusing "my gawd ITS VEGAN!", with a vegan> diet> > just cuz i can eat something doesn't mean i'm going to....> > anti-freeze is vegan....> >> >> <<SNIP>>>>>>>> To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

Lynda,

 

Would that include the vegan, soy-based stuff that starts with a W?

(Can't think of the name to save my life.)

 

--Kevin

 

 

Lynda wrote:

 

> And it has been found, not by the dairy industry or funded by the

> dairy industry, btw, that stick margarine is far more deadly than

> butter, particularly for women.

[Guest guest]

Talisman,

 

You asked for it. I'm still in Houston on a business trip and haven't

updated it in a few days, so the next update will likely be gargantuan.

 

http://www.livejournal.com/~spookcomix

 

--Kevin

 

 

 

ChemGeek wrote:

 

> Can you post your LJ url again? I don't know what I did with the

> email and I " m too lazy to look in the archives. I'd love to take a

> gander at what you write.

>

> Talisman

>

[Guest guest]

Peter,

 

So, do I get points toward " non-moderated status " for having started

this particular thread in the first place? :-)

 

Had to ask...it *is* a bit frustrating to have messages take a long time

to be posted. If I tell you that I own another

(WritersCafe) and have been doing this thing since way back when it was

still " eGroups, " then promise to play nice, will that sway the balance

in my favor?

 

--Kevin

 

 

Peter wrote:

 

> The CC's fine... apologies for the moderated status - this was pure

> oversight on my part, and I've now changed the status so you're no

> longer moderated!

>

[Guest guest]

Egads! I must be tremendously healthy with the triple doses I've

been taking!

 

Nikki

*flexing her muscles*

 

 

, " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote:

> Nikki

>

> Dark chocolate is full of antioxidants and the recommended dose is

three and

> a half ounces a day. Apparently it lowers blood pressure, and has

the same

> advantages as red wine (1 or 2 glasses a day) and red grape

juice. So, as

> long as you stick to the recommended dose - it is good for you.

If you add

> milk to the chocolate, it apparently negates all the benefits - as

if we

> didn't know that :-)

>

> Enjoy your chocolate.

>

> Jo

>

>

> -

> " nikki_mackovitch " <nikkimack@m...>

>

> Thursday, May 19, 2005 11:53 AM

> Re: So, how bad did I screw up?

>

>

> > Dark chocolate isn't rubbish, right?

> >

> > Someone, please! QUICK!

> >

> > It's not, right? It has antioxidants!!!

> >

> > Right? RIGHT??

> >

> > Oh no.......................

> >

> >

> > Nikki

> > *calming herself down with a nice piece of dark chocolate*

> >

> >

> > , " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...>

wrote:

> > > That is true Fraggle - but it doesn't mean a food is unhealthy

> > just because it doesn't come from animals. There are lots of

> > unhealthy vegan foods, just as unhealthy as most animal-derived

> > foods. There are also lots of super-healthy vegan foods.

Someone

> > who eats rubbish will do so whether they are vegan or not.

> > > -

> > > fraggle

> > >

> > > Thursday, May 19, 2005 12:49 AM

> > > Re: So, how bad did I screw up?

> > >

> > >

> > > just cuz something doesn't come from animals, don't mean its

> > healthy

> > > i think we are all confusing " my gawd ITS VEGAN! " , with a

vegan

> > diet

> > > just cuz i can eat something doesn't mean i'm going to....

> > > anti-freeze is vegan....

> > >

> > >

> > <<SNIP>>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > To send an email to -

 

> >

[Guest guest]

Thx Jo!

 

> It is a lot more difficult with a 'mixed' marriage

 

I've never thought of it that way, but you're right!

 

I'm very lucky in the fact that I have the support I do. It's not

always easy and I know there is frustration on both sides at times.

And I'm sure there are times when DH wishes we were a " normal "

family. But then again, he pretty much knew when he agreed to marry

me that " normal " was flying out the window at that point.

 

BB

Nikki

 

, " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote:

> It is a lot more difficult with a 'mixed' marriage :-) I'm sure

you are

> doing your best, and hopefully your example will be considered

when your son

> is older.

>

> BB

> Jo

>

> -

> " nikki_mackovitch " <nikkimack@m...>

>

> Thursday, May 19, 2005 11:34 AM

> Re: So, how bad did I screw up?

>

>

> > Hi Peter

> >

> > For me it's not that " black & white " . The hubby is a carnivore.

Zak

> > will not eat enough veggies, fruits, rice, beans to sustain him,

> > he'll try things (with a bit of a struggle) but not enough to see

> > him through to age 7. And I don't know enough about child

nutrition

> > in the vegan or even vegetarian sense to be able to keep him

afloat

> > on the few things he'll eat.

> >

> > I am happy with trying to teach him slowly. Strike that, not

happy,

> > but accept it and keep trying. Keep working with him, keep

teaching,

> > keep leading my example and continue learning all I can.

> >

> > It was an agreement with my hubby long ago. He supported and

> > continues to support my decision to become a vegan. He even takes

> > steps further and helps me to think of new meals to create. He

tries

> > and enjoys some of my dishes. He helps me to get Zak to try new

> > dishes that are soy based meat substitutes etc. But at no point

will

> > I force my views upon him and he will never ask me to go back. In

> > this agreement, I also stated that at this point, I will try to

get

> > Zak to eat more vegan or even vegetarian meals, but at no point

will

> > I ever put him in danger of malnutrition. Not that this is what

you

> > are suggesting, because I know you better than that. Just that

it is

> > a tough line here.

> >

> > And I do not look at it as forcing him one way or another. I

look at

> > it as trying to change what I can when I can. Continue

introducing

> > new things, continue asking Zak to have one bite of something he

> > doesn't like everyday until he gets use to it. (Namely brocolli,

> > carrots, etc.) Continuing to ask him to work with me in the

garden

> > so he enjoys these things more. Continuing to hide the fact it is

> > soy meat and not real meat. And just continuing to try.

> >

> > BB

> > Nikki

> >

> > , metalscarab@c... wrote:

> > > Hi Talisman

> > >

> > > > It's also the reason I am not raising my children vegan. My

7

> > year old

> > > > recently chose to go vegetarian (yay!) after putting 1 and 1

> > together and

> > > > realizing where meat came from. But I don't believe in

pushing

> > my beliefs

> > > > onto someone.

> > >

> > > I always find this an interesting concept... vegan parents

don't

> > want to

> > > " force their views " onto their children by feeding them a vegan

> > diet, but

> > > are quite happy to force someone else's views by feeding them a

> > meat based

> > > diet.

> > >

> > > Since we have to make choices for our children until they are

old

> > enough

> > > to make choices for themselves, it always seems curious to me

that

> > we

> > > (vegans) advertise to the world that we feel our diet

is " wrong " by

> > > feeding our children a meat-based diet because we don't want

> > to " force "

> > > our opinions on them. By feeding them meat, we are just forcing

> > someone

> > > else's opinion on them, and feeding them a less healthy diet

in the

> > > process!

> > >

> > > BB

> > > Peter

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > To send an email to -

 

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

I know that if it ever came to where I had to " start again " , I would

do things differently. I don't think that I could date someone who

was non-vegan. It's not easy turning blind to some of the foods

served in this house, but I also don't want to be a judgemental sort

either.

 

It's definately a strange line to walk.

 

BB

Nikki

 

, " Peter " <metalscarab@c...> wrote:

> Hi Nikki

>

> > For me it's not that " black & white " . The hubby is a carnivore.

Zak

> > will not eat enough veggies, fruits, rice, beans to sustain him,

> > he'll try things (with a bit of a struggle) but not enough to see

> > him through to age 7. And I don't know enough about child

nutrition

> > in the vegan or even vegetarian sense to be able to keep him

afloat

> > on the few things he'll eat.

>

> Of course, your situation is another sort - because, IIRC, you had

children

> before you went vegan, so they have probably already got used to

the diet

> they got fed when younger... I would have hated the idea of

becoming vegan

> as a child, but if I'd been vegan from birth, I probably wouldn't

have

> noticed :-)

>

> BB

> Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

See now I've heard of some strange all-natural remedies in my time,

but brushing your teeth with dark chocolate has got to be one the

strangest!

 

Oh well, if you think it will work...

 

BB

Nikki

 

 

, " Peter " <metalscarab@c...> wrote:

> Hi Nikki

>

> > Dark chocolate isn't rubbish, right?

> > Someone, please! QUICK!

> > It's not, right? It has antioxidants!!!

> > Right? RIGHT??

> > Oh no.......................

>

> I read something recently that has shown that dark chocolate is

good for

> blood pressure - so you should be safe... just make sure you brush

your

> teeth :-)

>

> BB

> Peter