So, how bad did I screw up?

[Guest guest]

Quick backstory: I've only

been vegan since May 7, and tonight I flew out of town for a week to a

city (Houston) I've never been to. I'm chronicaling my journey into

veganism in a LiveJournal. Below is a snippet from tonight's entry.

I'm posting it here because I'd like your input on how badly I screwed

up tonight, because aside from the accidental chai tea (explained in

the post), I don't know if the rest of my meal was vegan, and would

like to know if I should avoid something in the future.

 

Thanks!

 

--Kevin

 

 

Join me in my Quest for the Wholly Vegan: http://www.livejournal.com/~spookcomix

***

I made it to Houston. Uneventful flights, uneventful drive to the

hotel. When I got here, though, I was ravenous. Driving past a zillion

really yummy-sounding restaurants didn't help. Meat, seafood and dairy

products sang their siren song to my gurgling belly. Even McDonald's

sounded good. After my lunch around 11:30am, all I had to eat were

three bags of airplane peanuts (not the honey-roasted, I asked to be

sure before I took them.)

 

After I checked into my hotel I

grabbed my Mapquest printout to get to Sweet Tomatoes, a restaurant I

checked out via the Internet before I came. It was supposed to be about

5 miles from where I was staying, but I couldn't find it among the

tightly woven mass of retail hell I drove around in, and it was almost

9pm...closing time for 90% of the restaurants in the area (I assume.) I

decided to find something on the way back to the hotel.

 

I came

across a little restaurant called "Indian Wok," serving Indian and

Indo-Chinese food. Knowing that much Indian food is vegetarian (if not

vegan), I stopped and went in. The little place was packed with

friendly and beautiful Indian families. I was the only whitey in the

place at the time. I was seated and looked over the menu.

 

I

decided on an appetizer and something from their vegetarian menu. I

ordered them and asked for coffee, which I planned to drink black.

That's when the first problem arose.

 

Another waiter approached

and confirmed my order for coffee, but said that there would be a long

wait for coffee because none was currently brewed (they, too, were

closing at 9pm, and apparently nobody else was ordering coffee at the

time.) He mentioned that there was some hot tea already brewed. I said

that would be fine.

 

He brought me a cup of hot tea that very

obviously had been "creamed." I thought this was a bit odd, and after

he stepped away I glanced at the menu. Their only hot tea offering was

"masala chai - fresh herbal tea with milk." Damn. I didn't want to

drink milk, but at the same time, there it sat. If I sent it back, it

would only be poured out and be wasted.

 

Let me digress for a

moment with a bit of an explanation. I decided to go vegetarian this

time for equal parts health and ethical (animal cruelty and murder)

reasons. The leap to veganism, however, is primarily an ethical

one, however. I'm not nearly as concerned about my health just because

I would consume milk, eggs, cheese and butter, much less gelatine and

casein. However, I don't want to help the market for those products in

the slightest because it harms and tortures animals.

 

Ok, so back

to Indian Wok. Here sat this cup of tea with milk in it. Sending it

back would have accomplished nothing from an ethical point of view

because it would only go to waste. I decided to chalk it up to a

learning experience, and I drank it. Later in the meal, when a young

waitress stopped by who must not have spoken much English at all (she

"spoke" primarily through gestures at my plates), I ordered a cup of

coffee, hoping that by now some had been brewed. She nodded deeply as

if she understood, then promptly brought me another cup of chai tea,

with milk. I tried! Using the same reasoning as above, I drank the

second (and last) cup of tea.

 

Now, onto my meal. Here's the

second dilema: I'm not sure if this thing was vegan or not. Here's what

I had, according to the menu:

 

"Veg Pakora" - Veggies fried in spiced chickpeas flour batter, served

with safron pilaf rice.

"Dal Fry" - Cooked lentils flavored with garlic cumin onions and

tomatoes garnished with cilantro.

 

The

questions I had after being served were, what all might have been in

this batter, and did my "Dal Fry" have any milk or butter (or ghee) in

it? I honestly couldn't tell. I have no idea.

 

The theme for

tonight is: I tried, dammit! I avoided a thousand temptations and tried

my hardest to be a good little vegan, and if (when) I failed, it was

unintentional. Therefore, I'm not counting anything tonight as a "slip"

for purposes of recordkeeping, but instead I'll chalk any potential

vegan faux pas as "oopses".

 

Input is appreciated!

[Guest guest]

Hiya Kevin,

our local Indian restaurant serves both dishes you ordered and here there is no ghee and no milk or eggs

so IF they followed the same recipe then you did good (except the tea which you already acknowledged)

sounds to me like you have a good handle on being vegan already just stick to it

all the best

Craig

 

 

So, how bad did I screw up?Quick backstory: I've only been vegan since May 7, and tonight I flew out of town for a week to a city (Houston) I've never been to. I'm chronicaling my journey into veganism in a LiveJournal. Below is a snippet from tonight's entry. I'm posting it here because I'd like your input on how badly I screwed up tonight, because aside from the accidental chai tea (explained in the post), I don't know if the rest of my meal was vegan, and would like to know if I should avoid something in the future.Thanks!--KevinJoin me in my Quest for the Wholly Vegan: http://www.livejournal.com/~spookcomix***I made it to Houston. Uneventful flights, uneventful drive to the hotel. When I got here, though, I was ravenous. Driving past a zillion really yummy-sounding restaurants didn't help. Meat, seafood and dairy products sang their siren song to my gurgling belly. Even McDonald's sounded good. After my lunch around 11:30am, all I had to eat were three bags of airplane peanuts (not the honey-roasted, I asked to be sure before I took them.)After I checked into my hotel I grabbed my Mapquest printout to get to Sweet Tomatoes, a restaurant I checked out via the Internet before I came. It was supposed to be about 5 miles from where I was staying, but I couldn't find it among the tightly woven mass of retail hell I drove around in, and it was almost 9pm...closing time for 90% of the restaurants in the area (I assume.) I decided to find something on the way back to the hotel.I came across a little restaurant called "Indian Wok," serving Indian and Indo-Chinese food. Knowing that much Indian food is vegetarian (if not vegan), I stopped and went in. The little place was packed with friendly and beautiful Indian families. I was the only whitey in the place at the time. I was seated and looked over the menu.I decided on an appetizer and something from their vegetarian menu. I ordered them and asked for coffee, which I planned to drink black. That's when the first problem arose.Another waiter approached and confirmed my order for coffee, but said that there would be a long wait for coffee because none was currently brewed (they, too, were closing at 9pm, and apparently nobody else was ordering coffee at the time.) He mentioned that there was some hot tea already brewed. I said that would be fine.He brought me a cup of hot tea that very obviously had been "creamed." I thought this was a bit odd, and after he stepped away I glanced at the menu. Their only hot tea offering was "masala chai - fresh herbal tea with milk." Damn. I didn't want to drink milk, but at the same time, there it sat. If I sent it back, it would only be poured out and be wasted.Let me digress for a moment with a bit of an explanation. I decided to go vegetarian this time for equal parts health and ethical (animal cruelty and murder) reasons. The leap to veganism, however, is primarily an ethical one, however. I'm not nearly as concerned about my health just because I would consume milk, eggs, cheese and butter, much less gelatine and casein. However, I don't want to help the market for those products in the slightest because it harms and tortures animals.Ok, so back to Indian Wok. Here sat this cup of tea with milk in it. Sending it back would have accomplished nothing from an ethical point of view because it would only go to waste. I decided to chalk it up to a learning experience, and I drank it. Later in the meal, when a young waitress stopped by who must not have spoken much English at all (she "spoke" primarily through gestures at my plates), I ordered a cup of coffee, hoping that by now some had been brewed. She nodded deeply as if she understood, then promptly brought me another cup of chai tea, with milk. I tried! Using the same reasoning as above, I drank the second (and last) cup of tea.Now, onto my meal. Here's the second dilema: I'm not sure if this thing was vegan or not. Here's what I had, according to the menu:"Veg Pakora" - Veggies fried in spiced chickpeas flour batter, served with safron pilaf rice."Dal Fry" - Cooked lentils flavored with garlic cumin onions and tomatoes garnished with cilantro.The questions I had after being served were, what all might have been in this batter, and did my "Dal Fry" have any milk or butter (or ghee) in it? I honestly couldn't tell. I have no idea.The theme for tonight is: I tried, dammit! I avoided a thousand temptations and tried my hardest to be a good little vegan, and if (when) I failed, it was unintentional. Therefore, I'm not counting anything tonight as a "slip" for purposes of recordkeeping, but instead I'll chalk any potential vegan faux pas as "oopses".Input is appreciated!

[Guest guest]

HI Kevin

 

It's best to always ask for tea without milk, or ask if they have soya

milk.

 

The gram flour batter should be okay - they usually make it with

water, not milk.

 

Jo

[Guest guest]

Craig,

 

Great! That's wonderful news! Thanks for your input, I really do

appreciate it.

 

--Kevin

 

 

Craig Dearth wrote:

 

> Hiya Kevin,

> our local Indian restaurant serves both dishes you ordered and here

> there is no ghee and no milk or eggs

> so IF they followed the same recipe then you did good (except the tea

> which you already acknowledged)

> sounds to me like you have a good handle on being vegan already just

> stick to it

> all the best

> Craig

>

[Guest guest]

Jo,

 

Thanks for your response. In the future if presented the option to have

tea, I'll certainly do that. I had no idea that they pre-milked it for

you. That's a first for me. Although, if I had known they were serving

me *chai*, I would have figured it out. They just said " tea. " Oh well.

 

I'm glad about the batter, though! That's a relief. I shall go forth

into the rest of this crazy week with my head held high. :-)

 

--Kevin

 

 

heartwerk wrote:

 

>HI Kevin

>

>It's best to always ask for tea without milk, or ask if they have soya

>milk.

>

>The gram flour batter should be okay - they usually make it with

>water, not milk.

>

>Jo

>

>

[Guest guest]

The theme for tonight is: I tried, dammit! I avoided a thousand temptations and tried my hardest to be a good little vegan, and if (when) I failed, it was unintentional. Therefore, I'm not counting anything tonight as a "slip" for purposes of recordkeeping, but instead I'll chalk any potential vegan faux pas as "oopses".~~~~~~~~~~

 

But it is a "slip" any way you want to paint it. We aren't talking about a case where you ordered a bean burrito with no cheese only to eat a few bites and go "oh my this has cheese" and walk away from the meal. That is an "oopsie" or whatever you want to called it. You knew there was milk in the tea and drank not one cup, but two cups. You can attempt to rationalize it all you want but to blatantly drink dairy is not a vegan faux pas it's simply being non-vegan.

 

Vegans don't drink milk so you aren't a vegan yet. However, you have been attempting to convert to a vegan diet for less than two weeks. Most people can't just wake up one morning and say "Yay I'm vegan" and never touch dairy again. Dairy is physically and mentally addictive; so, what you did was react normally to that addiction.

 

Take baby steps and don't see this as you screwing up your path to becoming vegan, see it as one more step taking you in the direction of becoming vegan. The reason I say that it is a step taking you in the direction is because even though you did consume dairy it obviously bothered you enough to write it both here and in your weblog. Had you said "Yea I had dairy, screw you!" then I wouldn't necessarily count that as a positive step towards veganism. *grin*

 

So grab your floaties and head back towards the middle of the pool. I always hate to see new vegans drown their first month. ;)Talisman

--

Some things are inappropriate to say, that is...

until you have a weblog.

http://www.chemgeek.net/ramblings

--

[Guest guest]

Hi Kevin

 

I think it's inevitable that everyone who goes vegan is going to "screw up" quite a few times in the first few months - there's a surprisingly large amount to learn, and inexperience of dealing with people bringing you milk, etc. is bound to cause some issues... so, don't panic that you had milk - just put it down to experience, and learn from it!

 

Personally, I've found the easiest thing in restaraunts is to simply make it very clear to the staff straight out that you are vegan - I sometimes also say that I'm lactose intolerant (which is untrue - or at least it was when I used to consume dairy - I suppose I might be 7 years down the line!) - particularly if the restaraunt seems unsure of what vegan means! That way they are extra careful because they don't want to risk law-suits for serving things that people have bad reactions to!

 

BB

Peter

 

-

Kevin L. McDonald

Monday, May 16, 2005 4:42 AM

So, how bad did I screw up?

Quick backstory: I've only been vegan since May 7, and tonight I flew out of town for a week to a city (Houston) I've never been to. I'm chronicaling my journey into veganism in a LiveJournal. Below is a snippet from tonight's entry. I'm posting it here because I'd like your input on how badly I screwed up tonight, because aside from the accidental chai tea (explained in the post), I don't know if the rest of my meal was vegan, and would like to know if I should avoid something in the future.Thanks!

[Guest guest]

Talisman,

 

Just curious--what would your response have been if you had been served

the chai tea, and your concern was not health, but animal cruelty and

not wanting to support it? Would you have let the milk go to waste?

That is the only reason I consumed it after seeing it was " milked, " and

the only reason I consumed the second, equally botched order. I

thought that it would be even more of a shame that the milk had been

wasted and the animal suffered in vain.

 

I'm honestly not trying to rationalize it. I can see your point about

dairy being addictive. After seeing many good reasons why it is

horrible for animals, though, I'm not interested. Tonight, going

through a wonderful salad line, I strongly desired a heaping helping of

Ranch dressing, but opted for Italian instead, even though I am alone on

this trip and accountable to nobody but myself.

 

On the other hand, today I went through a food line and selected a

serving of what appeared to be some oven-roasted potatoes brushed with

oil and spices, but when the guy dipped them out, I saw the pan was

soaked in butter. The two guys I was with already knew I was vegan (I

met them today), knew that butter was a no-no, and most likely noticed

my mistake at the same time I did. This time, wasting the butter was

also in a precarious balance with coming across as a fraud, as weak, or

simply stupid. I chose to quietly not eat the potatoes and focused on

my other selections. It wasted the butter, unfortunately, but it might

have earned some credibility with my peers, who took turns in the

conversation at lunch by talking about how, sometimes, they just loved

to eat nothing but vegetables.

 

I guess what I'm saying is, I would have felt worse letting the tea be

wasted, even though I could have salvaged my pride and been able to say,

" Goodie! I'm still vegan! " In that case, though, I was alone and

nobody might have been watching to pass judgment on " veganism as a

whole. " I'm curious, however, what your response would have been, though.

 

I'm still chalking it up as an " oops, " and I'm still calling myself a

vegan. To let a debatable error in appropriate action negate all the

work I've done would be a travesty, and in my opinion, a bit

" technical. " It would be akin to telling a toddler that she cannot walk

just because occasionally she takes a tumble. What good would that do?

 

--Kevin

 

 

ChemGeek wrote:

 

> But it is a " slip " any way you want to paint it. We aren't talking

> about a case where you ordered a bean burrito with no cheese only to

> eat a few bites and go " oh my this has cheese " and walk away from the

> meal. That is an " oopsie " or whatever you want to called it. You

> knew there was milk in the tea and drank not one cup, but two cups.

> You can attempt to rationalize it all you want but to blatantly drink

> dairy is not a vegan faux pas it's simply being non-vegan.

[Guest guest]

Talisman,

 

....then again...

 

This last semester I took Logic. (I'm one of those adults who returned

to college, you see.) One thing we studied was argument fallacies. I

think I've presented one with regard to the poor analogy with the

toddler and walking.

 

I think I'll take a combination of some of your points and combine it

with Peter's recommendation of turning away food based on " lactose

intolerance. " The reasons go back and forth in my head, but " at the end

of the day, " I'm committed to a vegan lifestyle and I can see where

intentionally consuming the milk (the " it'll go to waste " argument

notwithstanding) would qualify as a " slip, " not an " oops " or an

accident. It was a bad judgment call that I'll chalk up to lack of

experience in dealing with the lifestyle in the wild. I should have

done what I did with the potatoes today, and just not consumed it. Or,

politely informed the waiter that I was ignorant that the tea came

pre-milked, and that I cannot drink it that way, with my apologies.

 

This is a tough balance. For me, it's harder to maintain a level of

politeness while also trying to think on my feet.

 

I'm still calling myself a vegan, though. Would you have any problem

with that one concession? Does my one slip negate all of my previous

work? Does a vegan who, in comparison, goes for ten years before having

a cup of milk, then ceases that activity, not get to say he was a vegan

for the previous 10 years? If so, when does he get to call himself

vegan again?

 

(I can see where debate like this will quickly wear thin, and in the

process, devolve into " missing the point. " )

 

Respectfully,

 

--Kevin

[Guest guest]

I think most vegans would agree that their intention is to never

consume or use any animal products, and would not accept the tea made

with milk.

 

I believe The Vegan Society asks that people have been following the

vegan ethic for a year before they call themselves vegan, when they

can become full members.

 

There will be times when mistakes are made as so many animal

ingredients are hidden in foods. I think that when you have been

vegan for a few more weeks you will have the determination to say no

to anything that is served wrongly.

 

Jo

 

, " Kevin L. McDonald " <kevin@b...>

wrote:

> Talisman,

>

> Just curious--what would your response have been if you had been

served

> the chai tea, and your concern was not health, but animal cruelty

and

> not wanting to support it? Would you have let the milk go to

waste?

> That is the only reason I consumed it after seeing it was " milked, "

and

> the only reason I consumed the second, equally botched order. I

> thought that it would be even more of a shame that the milk had

been

> wasted and the animal suffered in vain.

>

> I'm honestly not trying to rationalize it. I can see your point

about

> dairy being addictive. After seeing many good reasons why it is

> horrible for animals, though, I'm not interested. Tonight, going

> through a wonderful salad line, I strongly desired a heaping

helping of

> Ranch dressing, but opted for Italian instead, even though I am

alone on

> this trip and accountable to nobody but myself.

>

> On the other hand, today I went through a food line and selected a

> serving of what appeared to be some oven-roasted potatoes brushed

with

> oil and spices, but when the guy dipped them out, I saw the pan was

> soaked in butter. The two guys I was with already knew I was vegan

(I

> met them today), knew that butter was a no-no, and most likely

noticed

> my mistake at the same time I did. This time, wasting the butter

was

> also in a precarious balance with coming across as a fraud, as

weak, or

> simply stupid. I chose to quietly not eat the potatoes and focused

on

> my other selections. It wasted the butter, unfortunately, but it

might

> have earned some credibility with my peers, who took turns in the

> conversation at lunch by talking about how, sometimes, they just

loved

> to eat nothing but vegetables.

>

> I guess what I'm saying is, I would have felt worse letting the tea

be

> wasted, even though I could have salvaged my pride and been able to

say,

> " Goodie! I'm still vegan! " In that case, though, I was alone and

> nobody might have been watching to pass judgment on " veganism as a

> whole. " I'm curious, however, what your response would have been,

though.

>

> I'm still chalking it up as an " oops, " and I'm still calling myself

a

> vegan. To let a debatable error in appropriate action negate all

the

> work I've done would be a travesty, and in my opinion, a bit

> " technical. " It would be akin to telling a toddler that she cannot

walk

> just because occasionally she takes a tumble. What good would that

do?

>

> --Kevin

>

>

> ChemGeek wrote:

>

> > But it is a " slip " any way you want to paint it. We aren't

talking

> > about a case where you ordered a bean burrito with no cheese only

to

> > eat a few bites and go " oh my this has cheese " and walk away from

the

> > meal. That is an " oopsie " or whatever you want to called it.

You

> > knew there was milk in the tea and drank not one cup, but two

cups.

> > You can attempt to rationalize it all you want but to blatantly

drink

> > dairy is not a vegan faux pas it's simply being non-vegan.

[Guest guest]

In those circumstances I would say to the staff that their potatoes

were unsuitable for vegans, and if they cooked them in oil, which is

more healthy anyway, they would be suitable for vegans and lactose

intolerant people.

 

Jo

 

, " Kevin L. McDonald " <kevin@b...>

wrote:

> Talisman,

>

> ...then again...

>

> This last semester I took Logic. (I'm one of those adults who

returned

> to college, you see.) One thing we studied was argument

fallacies. I

> think I've presented one with regard to the poor analogy with the

> toddler and walking.

>

> I think I'll take a combination of some of your points and combine

it

> with Peter's recommendation of turning away food based on " lactose

> intolerance. " The reasons go back and forth in my head, but " at

the end

> of the day, " I'm committed to a vegan lifestyle and I can see where

> intentionally consuming the milk (the " it'll go to waste " argument

> notwithstanding) would qualify as a " slip, " not an " oops " or an

> accident. It was a bad judgment call that I'll chalk up to lack of

> experience in dealing with the lifestyle in the wild. I should

have

> done what I did with the potatoes today, and just not consumed it.

Or,

> politely informed the waiter that I was ignorant that the tea came

> pre-milked, and that I cannot drink it that way, with my apologies.

>

> This is a tough balance. For me, it's harder to maintain a level

of

> politeness while also trying to think on my feet.

>

> I'm still calling myself a vegan, though. Would you have any

problem

> with that one concession? Does my one slip negate all of my

previous

> work? Does a vegan who, in comparison, goes for ten years before

having

> a cup of milk, then ceases that activity, not get to say he was a

vegan

> for the previous 10 years? If so, when does he get to call himself

> vegan again?

>

> (I can see where debate like this will quickly wear thin, and in

the

> process, devolve into " missing the point. " )

>

> Respectfully,

>

> --Kevin

[Guest guest]

Kevin,

Don't beat yourself up too bad ... that's what we are here for. (haha)

the point was made and has been repeated many times in this group and a few others I am in

Vegan is a person who actively promotes and lives the life of consuming,using,wearing NON animal products

to the best of our ability we all live by that.

so what they are saying and want all of us to say is that we are Vegan and the term is pure.

at this point you are a fledgling vegan and mistakes will happen,

when I first became Vegan after many years of being vegetarian I bought some Olive Pate' I read the ingredients

woohoo it's vegan

got home we ate most of it . the next day I was looking at the ingredients again and there was anchovies in this olive pate' now without bating an eye straight down the sink and OOps. like you said

that didn't make me a non vegan just OOps.. but when you deliberately drink something with milk..well you

are back to being a vegetarian.

But from all I can see you are doing a great job of achieving your goal stick to it matey

all the best

Craig

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Kevin L. McDonaldTuesday, May 17, 2005 8:07 AM Subject: Re: So, how bad did I screw up?Talisman,Just curious--what would your response have been if you had been served the chai tea, and your concern was not health, but animal cruelty and not wanting to support it? Would you have let the milk go to waste? That is the only reason I consumed it after seeing it was "milked," and the only reason I consumed the second, equally botched order. I thought that it would be even more of a shame that the milk had been wasted and the animal suffered in vain.I'm honestly not trying to rationalize it. I can see your point about dairy being addictive. After seeing many good reasons why it is horrible for animals, though, I'm not interested. Tonight, going through a wonderful salad line, I strongly desired a heaping helping of Ranch dressing, but opted for Italian instead, even though I am alone on this trip and accountable to nobody but myself.On the other hand, today I went through a food line and selected a serving of what appeared to be some oven-roasted potatoes brushed with oil and spices, but when the guy dipped them out, I saw the pan was soaked in butter. The two guys I was with already knew I was vegan (I met them today), knew that butter was a no-no, and most likely noticed my mistake at the same time I did. This time, wasting the butter was also in a precarious balance with coming across as a fraud, as weak, or simply stupid. I chose to quietly not eat the potatoes and focused on my other selections. It wasted the butter, unfortunately, but it might have earned some credibility with my peers, who took turns in the conversation at lunch by talking about how, sometimes, they just loved to eat nothing but vegetables.I guess what I'm saying is, I would have felt worse letting the tea be wasted, even though I could have salvaged my pride and been able to say, "Goodie! I'm still vegan!" In that case, though, I was alone and nobody might have been watching to pass judgment on "veganism as a whole." I'm curious, however, what your response would have been, though.I'm still chalking it up as an "oops," and I'm still calling myself a vegan. To let a debatable error in appropriate action negate all the work I've done would be a travesty, and in my opinion, a bit "technical." It would be akin to telling a toddler that she cannot walk just because occasionally she takes a tumble. What good would that do?--KevinChemGeek wrote:> But it is a "slip" any way you want to paint it. We aren't talking > about a case where you ordered a bean burrito with no cheese only to > eat a few bites and go "oh my this has cheese" and walk away from the > meal. That is an "oopsie" or whatever you want to called it. You > knew there was milk in the tea and drank not one cup, but two cups. > You can attempt to rationalize it all you want but to blatantly drink > dairy is not a vegan faux pas it's simply being non-vegan.To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Hi Kevin

 

> This last semester I took Logic.

 

As one of my favourite quotes goes... " Logic merely enables you to be wrong

with authority " . :-)

 

> I'm still calling myself a vegan, though. Would you have any problem

> with that one concession? Does my one slip negate all of my previous

> work? Does a vegan who, in comparison, goes for ten years before having

> a cup of milk, then ceases that activity, not get to say he was a vegan

> for the previous 10 years? If so, when does he get to call himself

> vegan again?

 

If we really want to get into semantics, then a vegan is someone who doesn't

knowingly consume animal products. Personally, when I decided to go vegan, I

did not call myself vegan until I was sure that I had cleared all the animal

products from my diet - about 2 months after making the decision (and

probably about a month after I was technically vegan). If I knowingly

consume animal products again, then I will not be vegan.

 

You can't be vegan and knowingly consume animal products any more than you

can be a non-smoker who occassionally smokes a pipe, or, as I think Fraggle

once suggested, you can't be " sort-of pregnant " - you either are, or you

aren't.

 

I have found that there is quite a " status-symbol " effect that some people

attach to the word " vegan " , as though calling themselves vegan gives them

more street-cred, or something. To me, the word is a definition, and people

either fit the definition or don't - it's not a word that should be used

purely as status, but as a statement of fact. (If you want to see what I

mean, just search in the archives for the good old " honey " argument!)

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Kevin

 

> Just curious--what would your response have been if you had been served

> the chai tea, and your concern was not health, but animal cruelty and

> not wanting to support it? Would you have let the milk go to waste?

> That is the only reason I consumed it after seeing it was " milked, " and

> the only reason I consumed the second, equally botched order. I

> thought that it would be even more of a shame that the milk had been

> wasted and the animal suffered in vain.

 

I would look at it more as a long-term issue. If you go into a restaraunt,

tell them you are vegan, and then let them serve you milk, you are causing a

great deal of problems for any other vegans who go to that same restaraunt

in the future. You are also adding to the harm, because the restaraunt will

do the same in the future, and therefore more animals have suffered as a

result of your action.

 

The solution is really very simple - just advise the restaraunt / caterer at

the outset that you are vegan, and you do not consume animal products.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

hey kevin

haven't weighed in on this, as not sure exactly wot you want/desire...and you've already gotten into discussions with others, so have kept quiet

but

if i may

replace "milk" in the chai tea with, oh, baby fat.....

its all a case of what we see as an option, and what we don't...we all draw the line somewhere...you can rationalize it as "well, it would be a waste if i didn't drink what was already poured"...fair enough, i am not faulting you or pointing fingers(since they are busy clacking away on the keyboard anyways...no time to point).....just, what would you have done if you got a nice steaming cup of tea with yummy globs of baby fat?

to Jonathan Swift for ya?

ok...switch it with, puppy heads.....

why not? they eat dogs all over the place...in this society we just see it generally as nasty, since we differentiate between companion/pets and food....

so, would it have been a waste if you refused the cup full of steaming tea, with the lil puppy heads staring up at you? i mean..think of all the protein....

to be of course followed by a nice crunchy frog chocky, rams bladder cup(with a lovely garnish of lark's vomit)...cockroach cluster...anthrax ripple....

 

ack..late fer work...

cheers

fraggle "Kevin L. McDonald" May 16, 2005 5:07 PM Re: So, how bad did I screw up? Talisman,Just curious--what would your response have been if you had been served the chai tea, and your concern was not health, but animal cruelty and not wanting to support it? Would you have let the milk go to waste? That is the only reason I consumed it after seeing it was "milked," and the only reason I consumed the second, equally botched order. I thought that it would be even more of a shame that the milk had been wasted and the animal suffered in vain.I'm honestly not trying to rationalize it. I can see your point about dairy being addictive. After seeing many good reasons why it is horrible for animals, though, I'm not interested. Tonight, going through a wonderful salad line, I strongly desired a heaping helping of Ranch dressing, but opted for Italian instead, even though I am alone on this trip and accountable to nobody but myself.On the other hand, today I went through a food line and selected a serving of what appeared to be some oven-roasted potatoes brushed with oil and spices, but when the guy dipped them out, I saw the pan was soaked in butter. The two guys I was with already knew I was vegan (I met them today), knew that butter was a no-no, and most likely noticed my mistake at the same time I did. This time, wasting the butter was also in a precarious balance with coming across as a fraud, as weak, or simply stupid. I chose to quietly not eat the potatoes and focused on my other selections. It wasted the butter, unfortunately, but it might have earned some credibility with my peers, who took turns in the conversation at lunch by talking about how, sometimes, they just loved to eat nothing but vegetables.I guess what I'm saying is, I would have felt worse letting the tea be wasted, even though I could have salvaged my pride and been able to say, "Goodie! I'm still vegan!" In that case, though, I was alone and nobody might have been watching to pass judgment on "veganism as a whole." I'm curious, however, what your response would have been, though.I'm still chalking it up as an "oops," and I'm still calling myself a vegan. To let a debatable error in appropriate action negate all the work I've done would be a travesty, and in my opinion, a bit "technical." It would be akin to telling a toddler that she cannot walk just because occasionally she takes a tumble. What good would that do?--KevinChemGeek wrote:> But it is a "slip" any way you want to paint it. We aren't talking > about a case where you ordered a bean burrito with no cheese only to > eat a few bites and go "oh my this has cheese" and walk away from the > meal. That is an "oopsie" or whatever you want to called it. You > knew there was milk in the tea and drank not one cup, but two cups. > You can attempt to rationalize it all you want but to blatantly drink > dairy is not a vegan faux pas it's simply being non-vegan.To send an email to -

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Just curious--what would your response have been if you had been served the chai tea, and your concern was not health, but animal cruelty and not wanting to support it? Would you have let the milk go to waste?

~~~

 

Well I am not a vegan for health reasons. In fact some of the vegan foods I eat are actually less healthy for me than their dairy counterparts. However, I digress. I don't know if it is my age (27) or the fact I grew up in the USA or what, but I honestly do not understand your "would you have let the milk go to waste" drive for drinking the milk. Damn right I would.

 

~~~~~

That is the only reason I consumed it after seeing it was "milked," and the only reason I consumed the second, equally botched order. I thought that it would be even more of a shame that the milk had been wasted and the animal suffered in vain.

To me it's not suffering in vain if you openly refuse and tell them "I'm sorry I do not eat dairy products" you are standing up for that animal. Really, with the logic of your statement you should be going around to every fast food joint and restaurant in your town to make sure they aren't throwing away any meat/dairy at the end of the night and eating it so the animal didn't suffer in vain. Where do you draw the line?

 

~~~~~

I'm honestly not trying to rationalize it. I can see your point about dairy being addictive. After seeing many good reasons why it is horrible for animals, though, I'm not interested.

 

I'm not really sure where you go the impression that I'm not an animal advocate or maybe I'm just read this wrong after spending countless hours at the emergency room last night before last with a 5 year old and a head injury and 6 hours sleep total the last two nights.

 

You want to hear something funny? At least it asmuses the heck out of my husband. When I was 5 my mother took me to see ET in the theatre. It was all the rage in 1982 and of course a wonderful children's movie right? Well I didn't see it that way. I saw it depicting the true horror of human action on defenseless animals (albeit ET was an alien but you get my point). I haven't seen the movie since I was 5 and I refuse to see it ever again. It was at that point in my life that I became an animal advocate...all because of the movie ET. At that point I became anti dissection, use for animals in experimentation etc... Then, I went vegetarian at 10 because I just couldnt stand it anymore and I went vegan at 13 when I understood how dairy animals and egg hens were treated.

 

It's also the reason I am not raising my children vegan. My 7 year old recently chose to go vegetarian (yay!) after putting 1 and 1 together and realizing where meat came from. But I don't believe in pushing my beliefs onto someone. I'm not sure if you were on this email list a few weeks ago, but I told someone that I've totally moved past the standing on my soapbox yelling hellfire and brimstone veganism that I did in my early teens.

~~~~

 

I guess what I'm saying is, I would have felt worse letting the tea be wasted, even though I could have salvaged my pride and been able to say, "Goodie! I'm still vegan!" In that case, though, I was alone and nobody might have been watching to pass judgment on "veganism as a whole." I'm curious, however, what your response would have been, though.

 

Again, like I said, I just don't understand the whole feeling worse for letting the tea be wasted. I'm sorry. As for what my response would have been? To *you* drinking the tea or if I were served the tea? I believe I answered that above but I wouldnt' have touched it the minute I realized there was dairy in there.

~~~

It would be akin to telling a toddler that she cannot walk just because occasionally she takes a tumble. What good would that do?

lers don't walk, that's why it's called toddling.

 

Talisman------------------ICP-MS and Radioactive Isotope UserMaster Alchemist Gamma Mu ColonyAlpha Chi Sigma Fraternity------------------Some things are inappropriate to say, that is ...until you have a weblog:http://www.chemgeek.net/ramblings------------------

 

 

[Guest guest]

This last semester I took Logic. (I'm one of those adults who returned to college, you see.)

 

Oh I loved that class!!!! All the people sitting by me were "huh?" and I was like "OH THIS IS FUN!!" They thought I was on drugs, it was an amusing time. P.S. Awesomeness on going back to school.

 

This is a tough balance. For me, it's harder to maintain a level of politeness while also trying to think on my feet.

 

But see I think that is all it boils down to -- politeness. Now I realize you are an adult and the following statement is something I say to new teenage vegans so I apologize in advance I don't want you to think I'm trying to talk down to you... but honestly you aren't the type of person to stand there on your chair and say "I DON'T EAT DAIRY! THIS IS COVERED IN DAIRY SLOP! Blah blah blah" So politeness is the key. Obviously this is harder with tea but if you are so worried about wasting the food and the whole suffering in vain thing, why not box it up and give it to a friend? My friends have gotten way more free food from me than they ever should have.

~~~~Would you have any problem with that one concession? Does my one slip negate all of my previous work? Does a vegan who, in comparison, goes for ten years before having a cup of milk, then ceases that activity, not get to say he was a vegan for the previous 10 years? If so, when does he get to call himself vegan again?

 

Honestly Kevin it's not up to me. If you feel that you can still call yourself a vegan there's little I can do to stop you. I'm not going to argue about it for rounds because it honestly would change nothing. However, since you asked a question of me I will say this... It is my personal belief that one should not call himself a vegan until they no longer blatantly consume animal products. This means checking labels and being aware of sneaky things like Vitamin D3 is not vegan. This isn't to say that everyone once in a while something doesn't sneak in without knowledge but again, that's not a blatant act. If this takes you a week because you researched the hell out of it before you became vegan then okay it's a week... if it takes you a year, ok a year. But I still stand by the fact that blatantly consuming an animal product, for whatever reason, does not equal vegan.

 

Do I think taht this one step negates all your previous work? Nope, but then again I think that your previous work is a path towards veganism, not veganism itself. As far as the vegan for 10 years question. If the person made a conscious decision to drink something they knew contained dairy then I also think they are no longer vegan. However, as an aside, a true vegan of 10 years who ate dairy would probably throw up. *nods*

 

 

Can you post your LJ url again? I don't know what I did with the email and I"m too lazy to look in the archives. I'd love to take a gander at what you write.

 

Talisman----------------ICP-MS and Radioactive Isotope UserMaster Alchemist Gamma Mu ColonyAlpha Chi Sigma Fraternity----------------Some things are inappropriate to say, that is ...until you have a weblog:http://www.chemgeek.net/ramblings----------------

[Guest guest]

you wouldn't dare bring that back up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

.. (If you want to see what Imean, just search in the archives for the good old "honey" argument!)BBPeter

Those who control the past, control the future; Those who control the future, control the present; Those who control the present, control the past.^

[Guest guest]

Hi Talisman

 

> It's also the reason I am not raising my children vegan. My 7 year old

> recently chose to go vegetarian (yay!) after putting 1 and 1 together and

> realizing where meat came from. But I don't believe in pushing my beliefs

> onto someone.

 

I always find this an interesting concept... vegan parents don't want to

" force their views " onto their children by feeding them a vegan diet, but

are quite happy to force someone else's views by feeding them a meat based

diet.

 

Since we have to make choices for our children until they are old enough

to make choices for themselves, it always seems curious to me that we

(vegans) advertise to the world that we feel our diet is " wrong " by

feeding our children a meat-based diet because we don't want to " force "

our opinions on them. By feeding them meat, we are just forcing someone

else's opinion on them, and feeding them a less healthy diet in the

process!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

By feeding them meat, we are just forcing someoneelse's opinion on them, and feeding them a less healthy diet in theprocess!~~~~~~~~~

 

Peter -- I also copied this to your private email address, I have no idea why I'm still on moderated for this list but it becomes increasingly frustrating to have to wait for hours to contribute to a conversation, especially when often-times what I typed hours ago has been said numerous times by several other members while my message was waiting in a queue. I digress... I wanted to address your points as soon as I could. I hope you don't mind the CC to your private addy.

 

 

Well their father is omni. I really don't see it in any different of a light than say religion. I'm also not forcing religion on my children, I figure they can make that decision when they grow up. I'm exposing them to two major religions. They go to synagogue and then catholic school. But they come from a mixed heritage and I don't believe it's right to say "ok you are Jewish" when they aren't exactly. It's honestly the same with the food thing. I will expose them to my aspect (I don't feed them meat) and their father to his. They can make the decision when they are old enough.

 

I honestly don't buy into a lot of the vegan health-aspect propaganda. Frankly the tofutti cream cheese and icecream I have is less healthy for me with all it's mono and di-glycerides than a nice lowfat dairy cream cheese. I think both sides go to serious extremes to make their points that the truth gets muddy and isn't really presented. I believe that everything in moderation is the key. Yes that can include meat in a healthy diet. There is no true evidence that a diet rich in fruits and vegetables as well as whole grains combined with lean meats is not healthy for you. My kids aren't on the typical American diet with McDonald's 3 times a week and KFC 2 times a week. They snack on fruits/veggies, nuts etc.. and do consume organic meat and dairy products several times a week.

 

I am strictly a vegan for animal rights reasons and I cannot and do not expect everyone in the world to believe as I do. With the fact I really don't buy into all the extremist views, on either side, with regards to the health/danger of a specific diet, I have no issues with letting my children decide their own path in life.

 

I mean come on, there is quite a bit of data out there that shows that a vegan diet is bad for you. Albeit from an extremist view, but we choose to ignore that data simply because it was funded from the meat/dairy industry. But whose to say that it isn't accurate and correct? Or that there isn't some truth within all the crap they say? If we, as vegans, are willing to dismiss notions that say our diet is bad, soy is bad, etc... then you also have to afford people the right to dismiss the notion that small amounts of lean meats are bad for you. This is what I am doing.

 

I really hope my children will grow to be empathetic men and not eat meat and exploit animals, but you can't force empathy more than you can force IQ.

 

Talisman----------------ICP-MS and Radioactive Isotope UserMaster Alchemist Gamma Mu ColonyAlpha Chi Sigma Fraternity----------------Some things are inappropriate to say, that is ...until you have a weblog:http://www.chemgeek.net/ramblings----------------

[Guest guest]

Hi Talisman

 

> Peter -- I also copied this to your private email address, I have no idea why I'm still on

> moderated for this list but it becomes increasingly frustrating to have to wait for hours to

> contribute to a conversation, especially when often-times what I typed hours ago has been

> said numerous times by several other members while my message was waiting in a queue. I

> digress... I wanted to address your points as soon as I could. I hope you don't mind the CC

> to your private addy.

 

The CC's fine... apologies for the moderated status - this was pure oversight on my part, and I've now changed the status so you're no longer moderated!

 

> I honestly don't buy into a lot of the vegan health-aspect propaganda. Frankly the tofutti

> cream cheese and icecream I have is less healthy for me with all it's mono and di-glycerides

> than a nice lowfat dairy cream cheese. I think both sides go to serious extremes to make

> their points that the truth gets muddy and isn't really presented. I believe that

> everything in moderation is the key. Yes that can include meat in a healthy diet. There is

> no true evidence that a diet rich in fruits and vegetables as well as whole grains combined

> with lean meats is not healthy for you.

 

That's not at all true - there have been plenty of case studies. Men on a vegan diet only stand a 4% chance of heart disease before the age of 40, compared with 50% of meat-eaters. The average life expectancy of vegans is 5 years longer than that of meat eaters. The connection between dairy and osteoperosis in later life has clearly been proven in independent tests. I'd say that is plenty to say that a vegan diet is healthier than a meat / dairy based diet.

 

> I mean come on, there is quite a bit of data out there that shows that a vegan diet is bad

> for you. Albeit from an extremist view, but we choose to ignore that data simply because it

> was funded from the meat/dairy industry.

 

Perhaps this is purely because I am a historian, but I tend to judge evidence based on its source - if evidence comes from a particular source which has a known bias, and the evidence agrees with that bias, I weigh it accordingly (which often means ignoring it). To date there has not been a single independent study which has suggested that a vegan diet is unhealthy, but plenty which show the same about meat.

 

The issue I have is not with how individuals choose to raise their children, but how we view our own lifestyle choices based on the pressure others put on us. It seems ridiculous to me that feeding children a vegan diet is seen as "forcing our views", when feeding them a meat-based diet is seen as "normal". The point I am making is that we all "force our views" on our children to some extent, even if that is only up to the point where they make a decision for themselves - "forcing" a vegan diet, or "forcing" a meat based diet is exactly the same thing - the only difference is that one is considered "extreme", while the other is considered "normal". I think it is sad that people who have taken the time to think about these things feel that their choices are so abnormal that to make those same choices for those in their care who are unable to make choices for themselves is "wrong"!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Talisman

 

Your views that a vegan diet is not healthy, and your apparent belief in some of the statements saying it is unhealthy are rather strange. If you read up on the health aspects (although I know you are not interested in health) you may change your mind.

 

Jo

 

-

ChemGeek

Cc: metalscarab

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 5:49 PM

Re: So, how bad did I screw up?

 

By feeding them meat, we are just forcing someoneelse's opinion on them, and feeding them a less healthy diet in theprocess!~~~~~~~~~

 

Peter -- I also copied this to your private email address, I have no idea why I'm still on moderated for this list but it becomes increasingly frustrating to have to wait for hours to contribute to a conversation, especially when often-times what I typed hours ago has been said numerous times by several other members while my message was waiting in a queue. I digress... I wanted to address your points as soon as I could. I hope you don't mind the CC to your private addy.

 

 

Well their father is omni. I really don't see it in any different of a light than say religion. I'm also not forcing religion on my children, I figure they can make that decision when they grow up. I'm exposing them to two major religions. They go to synagogue and then catholic school. But they come from a mixed heritage and I don't believe it's right to say "ok you are Jewish" when they aren't exactly. It's honestly the same with the food thing. I will expose them to my aspect (I don't feed them meat) and their father to his. They can make the decision when they are old enough.

 

I honestly don't buy into a lot of the vegan health-aspect propaganda. Frankly the tofutti cream cheese and icecream I have is less healthy for me with all it's mono and di-glycerides than a nice lowfat dairy cream cheese. I think both sides go to serious extremes to make their points that the truth gets muddy and isn't really presented. I believe that everything in moderation is the key. Yes that can include meat in a healthy diet. There is no true evidence that a diet rich in fruits and vegetables as well as whole grains combined with lean meats is not healthy for you. My kids aren't on the typical American diet with McDonald's 3 times a week and KFC 2 times a week. They snack on fruits/veggies, nuts etc.. and do consume organic meat and dairy products several times a week.

 

I am strictly a vegan for animal rights reasons and I cannot and do not expect everyone in the world to believe as I do. With the fact I really don't buy into all the extremist views, on either side, with regards to the health/danger of a specific diet, I have no issues with letting my children decide their own path in life.

 

I mean come on, there is quite a bit of data out there that shows that a vegan diet is bad for you. Albeit from an extremist view, but we choose to ignore that data simply because it was funded from the meat/dairy industry. But whose to say that it isn't accurate and correct? Or that there isn't some truth within all the crap they say? If we, as vegans, are willing to dismiss notions that say our diet is bad, soy is bad, etc... then you also have to afford people the right to dismiss the notion that small amounts of lean meats are bad for you. This is what I am doing.

 

I really hope my children will grow to be empathetic men and not eat meat and exploit animals, but you can't force empathy more than you can force IQ.

 

Talisman----------------ICP-MS and Radioactive Isotope UserMaster Alchemist Gamma Mu ColonyAlpha Chi Sigma Fraternity----------------Some things are inappropriate to say, that is ...until you have a weblog:http://www.chemgeek.net/ramblings---------------- To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Your views that a vegan diet is not healthy, and your apparent belief in some of the statements saying it is unhealthy are rather strange. If you read up on the health aspects (although I know you are not interested in health) you may change your mind.

 

Jo I never said that the diet itself is unhealthy, I said that some of the foods I eat are less healthy than their dairy counterparts. This is true. Mono and Di-glycerides are NOT healthy for you and are found in many of the dairy alternatives. (Ice cream, sour cream, cream cheese and I believe mayo but don't quote me on the last one)

 

I also said that I don't believe that a diet rich in fruits/vegetables/whole grains with modest amounts of organic meats/dairy is a death trap like many veg*ns try to portray. I live in a very "granola" town and I hear quite often all the hellfire and brimstone veg*nism propaganda.

 

Finally I said that I believe that both extreme omni-advocates and extreme vegan-advocates taint the truth to fit their agenda. This isn't an uncommon practice in any realm; people want life to be black and white and it's not.

 

I have seen data that says a vegan diet is unhealthy, do I believe it? No, I think they are full of shit. You can't tell me you have never heard some doctor say it's impossible to get enough *insert something here* with a totally vegan diet. It's again a case of where people want black and white. Let me put it this way... A vegan sees an article about how vegan lifestyle is unhealthy period end of sentence.. they say bullshit. that same vegan sees an article about how meat eating is unhealthy period end of sentence, and they say "Damn right." My point was that you cannot totally dismiss data that says your particular lifestyle is "bad" without at least giving a bit of consideration that the other lifestyle has the potential to NOT be "bad" as you want to believe.

 

I have yet to see any study done on a true "rounded" diet (rich in fruits/veggies etc... modest in meat). I honestly would love to read one. The fact is, most americans are wolfing down meat/dairy at such an alarming rate, it's no wonder that studies show that meat eating is frightening for your body. The average american eats french fries and ketchup as their primary source of vegetables.

 

So while I think that veganism is a very healthy diet, I'm not going to deny that it is possible to also have a healthy diet while eating meat/dairy. (Although, I have to say that I believe it would have to be organic meats/dairy cuz the hormone/antibiotic thing freaks me out). I also am not going to deny that some of the things I enjoy, such as tofutti cuties, are not healthy for me based on the fact that it has mono and di-glycerides.

 

Bottom line: I think it's unfair to say that "just because it's vegan it must be healthy and just because it's meat/dairy it's automatically unhealthy."

 

Talisman

[Guest guest]

> The CC's fine... apologies for the moderated status - this was pure oversight > on my part, and I've now changed the status so you're no longer moderated!

 

Thanks Peter, I appreciate it!

 

> I'd say that is plenty to say that a vegan diet is healthier than a meat /

> dairy based diet.

 

I'd really love to see any articles that address a true rounded diet as I said to Jo. I mean that honestly, without any malice in my tone. If you have any, I'm all about reading them!

 

> It seems ridiculous to me that feeding children a vegan diet is seen as "forcing our views", when feeding them > a meat-based diet is seen as "normal".

 

Peter, I'll give you that one. I do see the flaw in my beliefs there. Hopefully this will come across correctly... my logic was that for me becoming a vegan was the only real answer to what I see as a horrific atrocity commited towards animals. Is it an "extreme" decision? I guess I don't really know. I do see it as an extreme response but at the same time I see it as the only answer for me... so therein that possibly contradicts the view that it is extreme. I suppose I can slightly correlate it to this: I'm very pro-choice when it comes to abortion, but when I was confronted with having to make a decision about abortion... (I was barely 20 when I became pregnant with #1, my family kicked me out because I was unmarried and as such a disappointment. So I did look into having an abortion.) ...I decided that it was not the right answer for me. But that doesn't mean I think abortion should be outlawed, or that other women shouldn't make that decision...I just know it's something that I could never participate in.

 

Back to veganism....because I became a vegan strictly for my beliefs about animals, I didn't really feel it was fair to my children to force them to embrace the same decision. It was something I decided after several years of "soul-searching." It wouldn't have mattered to me if you told me that I was going to shrivel up and die by not eating meat, because meat was/is something that literally repulsed me. My decision had nothing to do with health benefits. Maybe this is because I was very young when I made the decision to go veg*n (I was 10) but the fact I grew up defending my belief with my "cause" being animals that I never really looked at the other positive benefits. For example, I still know very little about the positive ecological benefits of veg*nism. I know the little tid-bits about water and land but nothing that I could, say, write a 10-page paper about.

 

It's only been in the last several years (4-5 years -- early 20's) that I really have looked at the true health benefits of a vegan diet rather than the animal aspect...possibly if I had looked into this 8(ish) years ago when I became pregnant with my first son things might be different today. I honestly don't know.

 

> I think it is sad that people who have taken the time to think about these things feel that their choices are so > abnormal that to make those same choices for those in their care who are unable to make choices for

> themselves is "wrong"!

 

Honestly, you have given me a lot to think about here... THANKS! (Seriously!) I never really thought about it this way.

 

T

[Guest guest]

On Wed, May 18, 2005 12:39 pm, ChemGeek said:

 

<stuff>

 

I just wanted to say that I think ChemGeek is a real class act. Seriously.

 

serene