New to group

[Guest guest]

Of course it is! My only point to begin with, was that new vegans, or

the vegan curious, might find all of this concern with precise, precise

definitions to be more intimidating and overwhelming than helpful.

That's all I was saying. That's all, that's it.

 

Gaije

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 6:33pm, Jo wrote:

> I think it is good to help new vegans - if they are vegan - otherwise

> we can

help vegetarians to become vegan if that is what they wish.

Jo

> Don't be silly.  I think it was pretty clear from my post that I was

> addressing how educating /helping new vegans, or those who are

> vegan-curious might most productively be done.

>

> I'm curious as to where you are that a restaurant need be called and

> warned of your impending arrival?

>

> Gaije

> On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 6:19am, Viv Carbines wrote:

> > So when I went out for a meal the other day (planned & restaurant

> > informed in advance) and was assured the soup was vegan because it

> only

> > had a little bit of milk in it I should have been happy to eat it?

> >

> >

> > Gaije Kushner [gaije]

> >

> >

> >  .... lifestyle changes.  So, maybe it would be best for all

> concerned

> > to

> > worry less about labelling (who's a vegan, who's a vegetarian,

> > whatever), and to focus more of that energy on education and

> guidance

> > without pressure, for those who are not quite as far along the veg.

> > path.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ---

> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

> > Version: 6.0.725 / Virus Database: 480 - Release 19/07/2004

> --gaije

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

Hiya Gaije & Jo

 

I feel the need to put my 2 cents in here

 

I must say I am a purest too

either you are vegan or you are vegetarian. you could say I am Vegetarian trying to become vegan

you could describe your DIET as 98% Vegan but you would still be a Vegetarian

more specific Ovo lacto Vegetarian

Vegan is Pure plant base diet no exception.

and welcome all new vegans to remember it is still ok not to be perfect (sometimes lol)

just don't call yourself Vegan.

 

on a brighter note in the last 2 weeks I have been giving out dozens of copies of the recording "Vegan in a Nutshell" from the Peta.org site

to various people and I have had 2 people come back to me asking if I would help them become Vegan.

neither of which was even a vegetarian before.

I must say in both cases that made it all worth while =o]]

 

all the best

Craig

Gaije Kushner [gaije]Sunday, August 01, 2004 7:15 AM Subject: Re: Re:New to GroupOf course it is! My only point to begin with, was that new vegans, or the vegan curious, might find all of this concern with precise, precise definitions to be more intimidating and overwhelming than helpful. That's all I was saying. That's all, that's it.GaijeOn Sat, 31 Jul 2004 6:33pm, Jo wrote:> I think it is good to help new vegans - if they are vegan - otherwise > we canhelp vegetarians to become vegan if that is what they wish.Jo> Don't be silly. I think it was pretty clear from my post that I was> addressing how educating /helping new vegans, or those who are> vegan-curious might most productively be done.>> I'm curious as to where you are that a restaurant need be called and> warned of your impending arrival?>> Gaije> On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 6:19am, Viv Carbines wrote:> > So when I went out for a meal the other day (planned & restaurant> > informed in advance) and was assured the soup was vegan because it > only> > had a little bit of milk in it I should have been happy to eat it?> >> > > > Gaije Kushner [gaije]> >> >> > .... lifestyle changes. So, maybe it would be best for all > concerned> > to> > worry less about labelling (who's a vegan, who's a vegetarian,> > whatever), and to focus more of that energy on education and > guidance> > without pressure, for those who are not quite as far along the veg.> > path.> >> >> >> >> >> >> > ---> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).> > Version: 6.0.725 / Virus Database: 480 - Release 19/07/2004> --gaije>>>> To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

That's great Craig. I don't even know what that recording is!

Information please?

 

Gaije

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 7:55pm, Craig Dearth wrote:

> Hiya Gaije & Jo

>

> I feel the need to put my 2 cents in here

>

> I must say I am a purest too

> either you are vegan or you are vegetarian. you could say I am

> Vegetarian

> trying to become vegan

> you could describe your DIET as 98% Vegan but you would still be a

> Vegetarian

> more specific Ovo lacto Vegetarian

> Vegan is Pure plant base diet no exception.

> and welcome all new vegans to remember it is still ok not to be perfect

> (sometimes lol)

> just don't call yourself Vegan.

>

> on a brighter note in the last 2 weeks I have been giving out dozens of

> copies of the recording " Vegan in a Nutshell " from the Peta.org site

> to various people and I have had 2 people come back to me asking if I

> would

> help them become Vegan.

> neither of which was even a vegetarian before.

> I must say in both cases that made it all worth while =o]]

>

> all the best

> Craig

>

> Gaije Kushner [gaije]

> Sunday, August 01, 2004 7:15 AM

>

> Re: Re:New to Group

>

>

> Of course it is! My only point to begin with, was that new vegans, or

> the vegan curious, might find all of this concern with precise, precise

> definitions to be more intimidating and overwhelming than helpful.

> That's all I was saying. That's all, that's it.

>

> Gaije

> On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 6:33pm, Jo wrote:

>> I think it is good to help new vegans - if they are vegan - otherwise

>> we can

> help vegetarians to become vegan if that is what they wish.

> Jo

>> Don't be silly. I think it was pretty clear from my post that I was

>> addressing how educating /helping new vegans, or those who are

>> vegan-curious might most productively be done.

>>

>> I'm curious as to where you are that a restaurant need be called and

>> warned of your impending arrival?

>>

>> Gaije

>> On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 6:19am, Viv Carbines wrote:

>> > So when I went out for a meal the other day (planned & restaurant

>> > informed in advance) and was assured the soup was vegan because it

>> only

>> > had a little bit of milk in it I should have been happy to eat it?

>> >

>> >

>> > Gaije Kushner [gaije]

>> >

>> >

>> > .... lifestyle changes. So, maybe it would be best for all

>> concerned

>> > to

>> > worry less about labelling (who's a vegan, who's a vegetarian,

>> > whatever), and to focus more of that energy on education and

>> guidance

>> > without pressure, for those who are not quite as far along the veg.

>> > path.

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > ---

>> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

>> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

>> > Version: 6.0.725 / Virus Database: 480 - Release 19/07/2004

>> --gaije

>>

>>

>>

>> To send an email to

>> -

>>

[Guest guest]

here ya go

http://www.goveg.com/feat/listen.html

 

Gaije Kushner [gaije]Sunday, August 01, 2004 8:18 AM Subject: Re: Re:New to GroupThat's great Craig. I don't even know what that recording is! Information please?GaijeOn Sat, 31 Jul 2004 7:55pm, Craig Dearth wrote:> Hiya Gaije & Jo>> I feel the need to put my 2 cents in here>> I must say I am a purest too> either you are vegan or you are vegetarian. you could say I am > Vegetarian> trying to become vegan> you could describe your DIET as 98% Vegan but you would still be a> Vegetarian> more specific Ovo lacto Vegetarian> Vegan is Pure plant base diet no exception.> and welcome all new vegans to remember it is still ok not to be perfect> (sometimes lol)> just don't call yourself Vegan.>> on a brighter note in the last 2 weeks I have been giving out dozens of> copies of the recording "Vegan in a Nutshell" from the Peta.org site> to various people and I have had 2 people come back to me asking if I > would> help them become Vegan.> neither of which was even a vegetarian before.> I must say in both cases that made it all worth while =o]]>> all the best> Craig> > Gaije Kushner [gaije]> Sunday, August 01, 2004 7:15 AM> > Re: Re:New to Group>>> Of course it is! My only point to begin with, was that new vegans, or> the vegan curious, might find all of this concern with precise, precise> definitions to be more intimidating and overwhelming than helpful.> That's all I was saying. That's all, that's it.>> Gaije> On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 6:33pm, Jo wrote:>> I think it is good to help new vegans - if they are vegan - otherwise>> we can> help vegetarians to become vegan if that is what they wish.> Jo>> Don't be silly. I think it was pretty clear from my post that I was>> addressing how educating /helping new vegans, or those who are>> vegan-curious might most productively be done.>>>> I'm curious as to where you are that a restaurant need be called and>> warned of your impending arrival?>>>> Gaije>> On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 6:19am, Viv Carbines wrote:>> > So when I went out for a meal the other day (planned & restaurant>> > informed in advance) and was assured the soup was vegan because it>> only>> > had a little bit of milk in it I should have been happy to eat it?>> >>> > >> > Gaije Kushner [gaije]>> >>> >>> > .... lifestyle changes. So, maybe it would be best for all>> concerned>> > to>> > worry less about labelling (who's a vegan, who's a vegetarian,>> > whatever), and to focus more of that energy on education and>> guidance>> > without pressure, for those who are not quite as far along the veg.>> > path.>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > --->> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.>> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).>> > Version: 6.0.725 / Virus Database: 480 - Release 19/07/2004>> --gaije>>>>>>>> To send an email to >> - >>

[Guest guest]

Thanks!

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:06pm, Craig Dearth wrote:

> here ya go

> http://www.goveg.com/feat/listen.html

>

>

> Gaije Kushner [gaije]

> Sunday, August 01, 2004 8:18 AM

>

> Re: Re:New to Group

>

>

> That's great Craig. I don't even know what that recording is!

> Information please?

>

> Gaije

> On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 7:55pm, Craig Dearth wrote:

>> Hiya Gaije & Jo

>>

>> I feel the need to put my 2 cents in here

>>

>> I must say I am a purest too

>> either you are vegan or you are vegetarian. you could say I am

>> Vegetarian

>> trying to become vegan

>> you could describe your DIET as 98% Vegan but you would still be a

>> Vegetarian

>> more specific Ovo lacto Vegetarian

>> Vegan is Pure plant base diet no exception.

>> and welcome all new vegans to remember it is still ok not to be

>> perfect

>> (sometimes lol)

>> just don't call yourself Vegan.

>>

>> on a brighter note in the last 2 weeks I have been giving out dozens

>> of

>> copies of the recording " Vegan in a Nutshell " from the Peta.org site

>> to various people and I have had 2 people come back to me asking if I

>> would

>> help them become Vegan.

>> neither of which was even a vegetarian before.

>> I must say in both cases that made it all worth while =o]]

>>

>> all the best

>> Craig

>>

>> Gaije Kushner [gaije]

>> Sunday, August 01, 2004 7:15 AM

>>

>> Re: Re:New to Group

>>

>>

>> Of course it is! My only point to begin with, was that new vegans, or

>> the vegan curious, might find all of this concern with precise,

>> precise

>> definitions to be more intimidating and overwhelming than helpful.

>> That's all I was saying. That's all, that's it.

>>

>> Gaije

>> On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 6:33pm, Jo wrote:

>>> I think it is good to help new vegans - if they are vegan - otherwise

>>> we can

>> help vegetarians to become vegan if that is what they wish.

>> Jo

>>> Don't be silly. I think it was pretty clear from my post that I was

>>> addressing how educating /helping new vegans, or those who are

>>> vegan-curious might most productively be done.

>>>

>>> I'm curious as to where you are that a restaurant need be called and

>>> warned of your impending arrival?

>>>

>>> Gaije

>>> On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 6:19am, Viv Carbines wrote:

>>> > So when I went out for a meal the other day (planned & restaurant

>>> > informed in advance) and was assured the soup was vegan because it

>>> only

>>> > had a little bit of milk in it I should have been happy to eat it?

>>> >

>>> >

>>> > Gaije Kushner [gaije]

>>> >

>>> >

>>> > .... lifestyle changes. So, maybe it would be best for all

>>> concerned

>>> > to

>>> > worry less about labelling (who's a vegan, who's a vegetarian,

>>> > whatever), and to focus more of that energy on education and

>>> guidance

>>> > without pressure, for those who are not quite as far along the

>>> veg.

>>> > path.

>>> >

>>> >

>>> >

>>> >

>>> >

>>> >

>>> > ---

>>> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

>>> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

>>> > Version: 6.0.725 / Virus Database: 480 - Release 19/07/2004

>>> --gaije

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> To send an email to

>>> -

>>>

[Guest guest]

Hi Gaije

 

> Of course it is! My only point to begin with, was that new vegans, or

> the vegan curious, might find all of this concern with precise, precise

> definitions to be more intimidating and overwhelming than helpful.

 

Perhaps I am a bit pedantic, but I think that language was created for

communication, and that we should always be concerned with using words

correctly, whether they are related to veganism or not. If we aren't

concerned with using language correctly, then this e-mail could quite

happily have read:

 

" Pedantic am communication a I bit perhaps I but language think created for

that was.... " You see my point?

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

I didn't eat the soup. It looked milky so I asked a veg friend if she thought it had milk in it. She thought it did so we asked the waiter. He went to the kitchen and came back with the reply "Yes it has, but only a little bit". A classic, I thought!

 

 

lv2breathe [lv2breathe] 31 July 2004 21:12

 

In a message dated 7/31/04 4:12:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 24 Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:19:14 +0100 "Viv Carbines" <vc27RE: Re:New to Group

No, I don't think you have to feel happy about that. They told you it was vegan and then gave you non-vegan soup. They didn't tell you the truth!

 

I think the object of disappointment is the difference here. In this case, you wouldn't get down on yourself because you sincerely did your best to obtain vegan soup but you would be down on the restaurant for not taking your request seriously.

 

 

 

---

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Version: 6.0.725 / Virus Database: 480 - Release 19/07/2004

[Guest guest]

Certainly it's important to use words correctly. However, sometimes I

think an overemphasis on correct use of language can become an

impediment to communication, which is certainly not anyone's goal.

 

Gaije

On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 4:48am, Peter wrote:

> Hi Gaije

> Of course it is!  My only point to begin with, was that new vegans, or

> the vegan curious, might find all of this concern with precise,

> precise

> definitions to be more intimidating and overwhelming than helpful.

Perhaps I am a bit pedantic, but I think that language was created for

communication, and that we should always be concerned with using words

correctly, whether they are related to veganism or not. If we aren't

concerned with using language correctly, then this e-mail could quite

happily have read:

" Pedantic am communication a I bit perhaps I but language think created

for

that was.... " You see my point?

BB

Peter

To send an email to -

 

[Guest guest]

Kind of like being " a little bit pregnant! "

Gaije

On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 6:59am, Viv Carbines wrote:

> I didn't eat the soup. It looked milky so I asked a veg friend if she

> thought it had milk in it. She thought it did so we asked the waiter.

> He went to the kitchen and came back with the reply " Yes it has, but

> only a little bit " . A classic, I thought!

>

>

> lv2breathe [lv2breathe]

> 31 July 2004 21:12

>

>

> In a message dated 7/31/04 4:12:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

> writes:

>

> Message: 24

> Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:19:14 +0100

> " Viv Carbines " <vc27

> RE: Re:New to Group

>

>

>

>

> No, I don't think you have to feel happy about that. They told you it

> was vegan and then gave you non-vegan soup. They didn't tell you the

> truth!

>

> I think the object of disappointment is the difference here. In this

> case, you wouldn't get down on yourself because you sincerely did your

> best to obtain vegan soup but you would be down on the restaurant for

> not taking your request seriously.

>

>

>

>

> ---

> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

> Version: 6.0.725 / Virus Database: 480 - Release 19/07/2004

--gaije

[Guest guest]

No ... Not saying it's ok that a vegan eats something the KNOW has a bit

of milk in it like that.... Just thinking about the whole issue of

labels, and when and where they have the most significance, how their

importance/meaning can vary with context, etc...

 

I think if you'd said you were vegetarian, they'd just have likely

served you up a big juicy steak, if vegan means to them, just a bit of

milk!

 

Gaije

On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 7:00am, Viv Carbines wrote:

> London! You wouldn't believe the trouble I cause at work when we go

> out

> for our twice yearly meals. I'm *always* asked by the person

> organizing

> the meal what it is I don't eat. At least this year it gave me the

> chance to add aubergines to the list!

>

> But it's all about labelling, if I'd told them I was a vegetarian they

> might have served fish, we probably all know " vegetarians " who eat

> fish.

> I was under the impression you were saying it's okay that a vegan eats

> something they believe has a little bit of milk in - think it was a

> muffin from Dunkin Donuts that the new vegan chose to eat. I'm not a

> member of the vegan police, I believe we're all on the same line

> somewhere, some just refuse to knowingly eat their own species, some

> draw the line at dogs & cats etc. It's easy to slip up by accident, no

> need to do it deliberately.

>

>

> Gaije Kushner [gaije]

>

>

> Don't be silly. I think it was pretty clear from my post that I was

> addressing how educating /helping new vegans, or those who are

> vegan-curious might most productively be done.

>

> I'm curious as to where you are that a restaurant need be called and

> warned of your impending arrival?

>

> Gaije

> On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 6:19am, Viv Carbines wrote:

>> So when I went out for a meal the other day (planned & restaurant

>> informed in advance) and was assured the soup was vegan because it

> only

>> had a little bit of milk in it I should have been happy to eat it?

>>

>>

>> Gaije Kushner [gaije]

>>

>>

>> .... lifestyle changes. So, maybe it would be best for all concerned

>> to

>> worry less about labelling (who's a vegan, who's a vegetarian,

>> whatever), and to focus more of that energy on education and guidance

>> without pressure, for those who are not quite as far along the veg.

>> path.

>---

> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

> Version: 6.0.725 / Virus Database: 480 - Release 19/07/2004

--gaije

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/1/04 1:40:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 10 Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:04:41 +0100 "Peter" <metalscarabRe: Re: New to GroupHi K> Maybe the word "veganish" would apply....or one could say> "I am 98% vegan, the rest of the time vegetarian".And, on the same basis, a regular meat eater could say "I'm vegan 66% of the time, the rest of the time I'm a meat eater"... based on the assumption that most meat based meals are meat and two veg.I think the problem is that for some reason people want to be vegan because they think it's fashionable or something. Either you are vegan or you aren't - there isn't a percentage thing. If you're vegan only 98% of the time, then you're not vegan 2% of the time, therefore you are not vegan. What the **** hell is wrong with just saying "I'm vegetarian but I rarely eat dairy or eggs"????Vegan is a definition, you can't just change it because you think it's a more cool name than vegetarian. I guess I could call myself Outer Mongolian, even though I've got no Mongolian blood in me at all. After all, I once read a book on the Golden Horde.I wonder... would you be happy if one of the Yogi's turned around and said "I'm a Yogi 98% of the time, the rest of the time I'm a Fundamentalist Shiah Muslim"... wouldn't really mean much, would it?BBPeter[This message contained attachments]

Peter

 

I didn't mean to disturb you...I detect irritation in your note.

 

Actually, when I said "98% vegan" it was mostly tongue in cheek. I was just offering perhaps a funny way of explaining how one is.

 

It bothers me as well, when those who eat fish or eggs say they are veg. It's just too easy and it doesn't differentiate from those who make real effort and caring in sacrificing these foods. So I agree with you there...totally. I am all for standards and adhering to them.

 

I guess I'll leave it up to you whether or not I am a vegan. I never eat flesh. Occasionally I'll have some yogurt...but only occasionally. Dairy is definitely not a food group for me as my meals are based on grains and beans and veggies. I NEVER eat eggs, either. I don't worry about gelatin in film but I do take extra care to buy cruelty free products. I never use bone meal in my garden but I use fertilizer. I give to animal rights groups often and go to demos. I write letters.I feel mostly vegan...in fact I fell 98% vegan and the rest vegetarian. Maybe you are right...maybe I shouldn't be calling myself vegan at all!

 

I see your point....my intention was not to annoy.

 

Good Sunday to you

 

Kristina

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/1/04 1:40:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

There are many many complaints from true vegetariansthat when they try to eat out they are offered fish as vegetarian. If youdilute the word 'vegan' then vegans will not be able to get vegan food whenout, but food containing dairy or eggs that the restauranteur is under themistaken belief that it is vegan.There is no leeway in this matter - so I ask please that people who are notvegan do not call themselves vegan.Jo

I actually totally agree with this. I would never "dilute" what it is to be vegan...really! I would never tell a restaurant "Oh, it's OK to put dairy in my vegan meal". I know the difference.

 

I guess that's why I like the term "veganish"...which is probably what I am. I never eat meat....never eat eggs...and dairy just sometimes...but even then it's a small amount. So I am mostly vegan..."veganish". Is that not fair?

 

K

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/1/04 1:40:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 15 Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:27:11 +0100 "Jo" <HeartworkRe: Re: New to GroupNO! Definitely not. One could say I am vegetarian who doesn't eat dairy/eggs or whatever. One could say that one is teetotal 98% of the time but drinks alcohol 2% of the time.Jo - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Saturday, July 31, 2004 9:49 PM Re: New to Group Maybe the word "veganish" would apply....or one could say "I am 98% vegan, the rest of the time vegetarian". K In a message dated 7/31/04 4:12:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: There is nothing wrong with calling yourself vegetarian though, if you do eat some animal products, or don't make a really big effort to avoid all animal products. I am sure most vegetarians get annoyed when people who eat fish and chicken, but have given up red meat, call themselves vegetarian. I feel it is good to encourage everyone, and as I have lots of omnivorous friends, do not consider myself to be very judgemental - just don't see the harm in being called vegetarian. Jo

Okay, that's fine. But you know, with the overall scheme of things. and the the length of time where I have abstained from flesh (almost 20 years now), and all the time I've spent at demos and letter writing, and all the donations I've been giving AR groups...pretty much since I was 18 years old...I feel like a vegan. But that's fine....I shall call myself a veg who does not eat eggs and avoids leather and avoids animal tested products, etc etc.

 

K

[Guest guest]

Hi Craig

 

That's good news about the people being interested in becoming vegan. You must be proud.

 

Jo

 

-

Craig Dearth

Sunday, August 01, 2004 12:56 AM

Re:New to Group

 

Hiya Gaije & Jo

 

I feel the need to put my 2 cents in here

 

I must say I am a purest too

either you are vegan or you are vegetarian. you could say I am Vegetarian trying to become vegan

you could describe your DIET as 98% Vegan but you would still be a Vegetarian

more specific Ovo lacto Vegetarian

Vegan is Pure plant base diet no exception.

and welcome all new vegans to remember it is still ok not to be perfect (sometimes lol)

just don't call yourself Vegan.

 

on a brighter note in the last 2 weeks I have been giving out dozens of copies of the recording "Vegan in a Nutshell" from the Peta.org site

to various people and I have had 2 people come back to me asking if I would help them become Vegan.

neither of which was even a vegetarian before.

I must say in both cases that made it all worth while =o]]

 

all the best

Craig

Gaije Kushner [gaije]Sunday, August 01, 2004 7:15 AM Subject: Re: Re:New to GroupOf course it is! My only point to begin with, was that new vegans, or the vegan curious, might find all of this concern with precise, precise definitions to be more intimidating and overwhelming than helpful. That's all I was saying. That's all, that's it.GaijeOn Sat, 31 Jul 2004 6:33pm, Jo wrote:> I think it is good to help new vegans - if they are vegan - otherwise > we canhelp vegetarians to become vegan if that is what they wish.Jo> Don't be silly. I think it was pretty clear from my post that I was> addressing how educating /helping new vegans, or those who are> vegan-curious might most productively be done.>> I'm curious as to where you are that a restaurant need be called and> warned of your impending arrival?>> Gaije> On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 6:19am, Viv Carbines wrote:> > So when I went out for a meal the other day (planned & restaurant> > informed in advance) and was assured the soup was vegan because it > only> > had a little bit of milk in it I should have been happy to eat it?> >> > > > Gaije Kushner [gaije]> >> >> > .... lifestyle changes. So, maybe it would be best for all > concerned> > to> > worry less about labelling (who's a vegan, who's a vegetarian,> > whatever), and to focus more of that energy on education and > guidance> > without pressure, for those who are not quite as far along the veg.> > path.> >> >> >> >> >> >> > ---> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).> > Version: 6.0.725 / Virus Database: 480 - Release 19/07/2004> --gaije>>>> To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

kind of like pregnant or not pregnant.... you can't be just 'a little bit pregnant'... you are, or you aren't ;=]

 

-

Jo

Saturday, July 31, 2004 6:27 PM

Re: Re: New to Group

 

NO! Definitely not. One could say I am vegetarian who doesn't eat dairy/eggs or whatever.

 

One could say that one is teetotal 98% of the time but drinks alcohol 2% of the time.

 

Jo

 

-

lv2breathe

Cc: Lv2breathe

Saturday, July 31, 2004 9:49 PM

Re: New to Group

 

 

Maybe the word "veganish" would apply....or one could say

 

"I am 98% vegan, the rest of the time vegetarian".

 

K

 

In a message dated 7/31/04 4:12:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

There isnothing wrong with calling yourself vegetarian though, if you do eat someanimal products, or don't make a really big effort to avoid all animalproducts. I am sure most vegetarians get annoyed when people who eat fishand chicken, but have given up red meat, call themselves vegetarian.I feel it is good to encourage everyone, and as I have lots of omnivorousfriends, do not consider myself to be very judgemental - just don't see theharm in being called vegetarian.Jo

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You sound like you are vegetarian as you sometimes have dairy - why don't you call yourself vegetarian?

 

Jo

 

-

lv2breathe

Cc: Lv2breathe

Sunday, August 01, 2004 11:25 PM

Re: New To Group

 

 

In a message dated 8/1/04 1:40:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

There are many many complaints from true vegetariansthat when they try to eat out they are offered fish as vegetarian. If youdilute the word 'vegan' then vegans will not be able to get vegan food whenout, but food containing dairy or eggs that the restauranteur is under themistaken belief that it is vegan.There is no leeway in this matter - so I ask please that people who are notvegan do not call themselves vegan.Jo

I actually totally agree with this. I would never "dilute" what it is to be vegan...really! I would never tell a restaurant "Oh, it's OK to put dairy in my vegan meal". I know the difference.

 

I guess that's why I like the term "veganish"...which is probably what I am. I never eat meat....never eat eggs...and dairy just sometimes...but even then it's a small amount. So I am mostly vegan..."veganish". Is that not fair?

 

KTo send an email to -

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Nobody is putting you down for being vegetarian - other than maybe yourself - do you feel that you are better than other vegetarians, and if it is important to you to be vegan - why aren't you?

 

Jo

 

-

lv2breathe

Cc: Lv2breathe

Sunday, August 01, 2004 11:30 PM

Re: New to Group

 

In a message dated 8/1/04 1:40:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 15 Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:27:11 +0100 "Jo" <HeartworkRe: Re: New to GroupNO! Definitely not. One could say I am vegetarian who doesn't eat dairy/eggs or whatever. One could say that one is teetotal 98% of the time but drinks alcohol 2% of the time.Jo - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Saturday, July 31, 2004 9:49 PM Re: New to Group Maybe the word "veganish" would apply....or one could say "I am 98% vegan, the rest of the time vegetarian". K In a message dated 7/31/04 4:12:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, vegan_! chat writes: There is nothing wrong with calling yourself vegetarian though, if you do eat some animal products, or don't make a really big effort to avoid all animal products. I am sure most vegetarians get annoyed when people who eat fish and chicken, but have given up red meat, call themselves vegetarian. I feel it is good to encourage everyone, and as I have lots of omnivorous friends, do not consider myself to be very judgemental - just don't see the harm in being called vegetarian. Jo

Okay, that's fine. But you know, with the overall scheme of things. and the the length of time where I have abstained from flesh (almost 20 years now), and all the time I've spent at demos and letter writing, and all the donations I've been giving AR groups...pretty much since I was 18 years old...I feel like a vegan. But that's fine....I shall call myself a veg who does not eat eggs and avoids leather and avoids animal tested products, etc etc.

 

K

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viv

 

some people would be happy to eat, whilst we sat with glass of water....

 

and remember, i have been there lol

 

(nb ex-in-laws inviting me round for dinner, then saying ooops we forgot to

cook for you......and oh, ermmmmmmm sorry)

 

catherine

 

pengam pagan princess

 

 

> " Viv Carbines " <vc27

>

>

>RE: Re: New To Group

>Sun, 1 Aug 2004 11:59:14 +0100

>

>I didn't eat the soup. It looked milky so I asked a veg friend if she

>thought it had milk in it. She thought it did so we asked the waiter.

>He went to the kitchen and came back with the reply " Yes it has, but

>only a little bit " . A classic, I thought!

>

>

>lv2breathe [lv2breathe]

>31 July 2004 21:12

>

>

>In a message dated 7/31/04 4:12:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

> writes:

>

>Message: 24

> Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:19:14 +0100

> " Viv Carbines " <vc27

>RE: Re:New to Group

>

>

>

>

>No, I don't think you have to feel happy about that. They told you it

>was vegan and then gave you non-vegan soup. They didn't tell you the

>truth!

>

>I think the object of disappointment is the difference here. In this

>case, you wouldn't get down on yourself because you sincerely did your

>best to obtain vegan soup but you would be down on the restaurant for

>not taking your request seriously.

>

>

>

>

>---

>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

>Version: 6.0.725 / Virus Database: 480 - Release 19/07/2004

>

[Guest guest]

Okay. Just wondering if someone could define the term "Vegan" then?

 

Cynthia

 

-

Peter

Sunday, August 01, 2004 6:44 PM

Re: Re: New to Group

 

Hi K

 

> Okay, that's fine. But you know, with the overall scheme of things. and the the length of time where I have abstained from flesh (almost 20

> years now), and all the time I've spent at demos and letter writing, and all the donations I've been giving AR groups...pretty much since I was

> 18 years old...I feel like a vegan. But that's fine....I shall call myself a veg who does not eat eggs and avoids leather and avoids animal tested

> products, etc etc.

 

It would seem that you are saying that you consider yourself to be somehow above the term "vegetarian". I wonder how other vegetarians would react to this indictment of their efforts - I think I would feel quite insulted.

 

Perhaps you could explain what is wrong with the term "vegetarian"? I see nothing shameful about the use of that label.

 

The word vegan refers to what you consume, it does not refer to what you feel like, or to what other great things you have done for animals, humans, or anything else.

 

Personally, I was involved in animal rights for a couple of years before turning vegetarian (let alone vegan), but I didn't think my efforts made me something I wasn't.

 

BB

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In a message dated 8/1/04 4:48:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 21 Sun, 1 Aug 2004 23:44:57 +0100 "Peter" <metalscarabRe: Re: New to GroupHi K> Okay, that's fine. But you know, with the overall scheme of things. and the the length of time where I have abstained from flesh (almost 20> years now), and all the time I've spent at demos and letter writing, and all the donations I've been giving AR groups...pretty much since I was> 18 years old...I feel like a vegan. But that's fine....I shall call myself a veg who does not eat eggs and avoids leather and avoids animal tested> products, etc etc.It would seem that you are saying that you consider yourself to be somehow above the term "vegetarian". I wonder how other vegetarians would react to this indictment of their efforts - I think I would feel quite insulted.Perhaps you could explain what is wrong with the term "vegetarian"? I see nothing shameful about the use of that label.The word vegan refers to what you consume, it does not refer to what you feel like, or to what other great things you have done for animals, humans, or anything else.Personally, I was involved in animal rights for a couple of years before turning vegetarian (let alone vegan), but I didn't think my efforts made me something I wasn't.BBPeter

 

Oh, please don't take offense. Offense wasn't meant, at all!

 

I just don't feel I am just vegetarian! My diet is based on beans and grains...I consciously choose my personal and cleaning products to make sure they weren't put in bunnies eyes, I avoid leather as much as I can, I make a lot of effort to get the correct food (even today eating with my biking group...I just ate hash browns). I wouldn't mind being called vegetarian IF I was just a veg...but I go further than that. That is all. Please don't be offended...it's not the point.

 

K

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/1/04 4:48:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 22 Sun, 1 Aug 2004 23:32:54 +0100 "Jo" <HeartworkRe: Re: New To GroupYou sound like you are vegetarian as you sometimes have dairy - why don't you call yourself vegetarian?Jo - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Sunday, August 01, 2004 11:25 PM Re: New To Group In a message dated 8/1/04 1:40:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: There are many many complaints from true vegetarians that when they try to eat out they are offered fish as vegetarian. If you dilute the word 'vegan' then vegans will not be able to get vegan food when out, but food containing dairy or eggs that the restauranteur is under the mistaken belief that it is vegan. There is no leeway in this matter - so I ask please that people who are not vegan do not call themselves vegan. Jo I actually totally agree with this. I would never "dilute" what it is to be vegan...really! I would never tell a restaurant "Oh, it's OK to put dairy in my vegan meal". I know the difference. I guess that's why I like the term "veganish"...which is probably what I am. I never eat meat....never eat eggs...and dairy just sometimes...but even then it's a small amount. So I am mostly vegan..."veganish". Is that not fair? K

Let me clarify. I don't drink milk or do cheese. The only thing I do, once in awhile is have a T of yogurt. I don't even have a serving. It's not a food group for me, it's not even a regular thing. My daily food consists of salads, vegetables, beans and rice. Even today, while eating with my bicycle group in a very unfriendly to veggies restaurants...I could've had a cheese burrito but I didn't because I avoid cheese. So I ate hash browns while everyone else had omelettes.

 

If that T of yogurt differentiates me from you, fine. But I am much much closer to being vegan than vegetarian. Vegetarians tend to be much more liberal with the dairy and I am not at all. They tend to use it regularly in cooking...where all my cookbooks or all the recipes I use are vegan.

 

K

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/1/04 4:48:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

In a message dated 8/1/04 1:40:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Message: 15 Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:27:11 +0100 "Jo" <Heartwork Re: Re: New to Group NO! Definitely not. One could say I am vegetarian who doesn't eat dairy/eggs or whatever. One could say that one is teetotal 98% of the time but drinks alcohol 2% of the time. Jo - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Saturday, July 31, 2004 9:49 PM Re: New to Group Maybe the word "veganish" would apply....or one could say "I am 98% vegan, the rest of the time vegetarian". K In a message dated 7/31/04 4:12:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, vegan_! chat writes: There is nothing wrong with calling yourself vegetarian though, if you do eat some animal products, or don't make a really big effort to avoid all animal products. I am sure most vegetarians get annoyed when people who eat fish and chicken, but have given up red meat, call themselves vegetarian. I feel it is good to encourage everyone, and as I have lots of omnivorous friends, do not consider myself to be very judgemental - just don't see the harm in being called vegetarian. Jo Okay, that's fine. But you know, with the overall scheme of things. and the the length of time where I have abstained from flesh (almost 20 years now), and all the time I've spent at demos and letter writing, and all the donations I've been giving AR groups...pretty much since I was 18 years old...I feel like a vegan. But that's fine....I shall call myself a veg who does not eat eggs and avoids leather and avoids animal tested products, etc etc. K To send an email to -

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Hi Cynthia

 

> Okay. Just wondering if someone could define the term "Vegan" then?

 

According to the OED, it is defined as "(Person) eating no animals or animal products"... since dairy is an animal product, if you eat it (even ocassionally), you aren't vegan!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi K

 

> I just don't feel I am just vegetarian! My diet is based on beans and grains...I consciously choose my personal and cleaning products to make

> sure they weren't put in bunnies eyes, I avoid leather as much as I can, I make a lot of effort to get the correct food (even today eating with my

> biking group...I just ate hash browns). I wouldn't mind being called vegetarian IF I was just a veg...but I go further than that. That is all. Please

> don't be offended...it's not the point.

 

But there are many vegetarians who do all these things, and don't consider that they have to find an alternative word for themselves. If you feel it necessary to define yourself further, so people aren't confused into thinking that you are vegetarian for health or religious reasons, what's wrong with the term "ethical vegetarian". Or. if you really feel it's so important to call yourself vegan, you could just cut out the dairy, and become a vegan!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi K

 

> If that T of yogurt differentiates me from you, fine. But I am much much closer to being vegan than vegetarian. Vegetarians tend to be much more liberal with the dairy

> and I am not at all. They tend to use it regularly in cooking...where all my cookbooks or all the recipes I use are vegan.

 

You *are* a vegetarian - you could not get closer to being a vegetarian. However, you could get closer to being vegan by giving up the small amount of dairy you consume. Ergo, you are not closer to vegan than vegetarian.

 

BB

Peter