Guest guest Report post Posted May 16, 2003 Hi Fraggle > ah..just like we are here in america today> sometimes you can't help but be controlled> its easy to be overwhelmed, its easy to feel alone, to go along with the status quo But you choose to go along with the status quo. It is your choice to allow that level of control over your life - otherwise you would make a choice to live somewhere other than America. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 16, 2003 we all make choices..i notice you live in britain, tho yer lead by blair who is cut from thr same cloth as bush... i suppose i could try and move outside the US, but, that wouldn't change a dang thing here " Peter " <Snowbow wrote: >Hi Fraggle > >> ah..just like we are here in america today >> sometimes you can't help but be controlled >> its easy to be overwhelmed, its easy to feel alone, to go along with the status quo > >But you choose to go along with the status quo. It is your choice to allow that level of control over your life - otherwise you would make a choice to live somewhere other than America. > >BB >Peter > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 16, 2003 Hi Fraggle > we all make choices..i notice you live in britain, tho yer lead by blair who is cut from thr same cloth as bush... > i suppose i could try and move outside the US, but, that wouldn't change a dang thing here I wasn't criticising you for living in the US - just pointing out that you make that choice. I live in the UK, and while I'm not at all happy about the way this country is governed, I still choose to live here - therefore the controls on my life imposed by this government only control me because I allow them to. If I felt strongly enough that I didn't want them to control me I could move elsewhere - although I make a personal choice to allow those controls and do my utmost to change those ones that I don't like for myself and all those living here - that's my choice. BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 17, 2003 The same Taliban (or their supporters) that whipped, imprisoned, and executed both men and women for breaking their " rules " , and who destroyed centuries-old irreplaceable Buddah statues that were an affront to their religion. Show no mercy, expect no mercy. Tom - " Peter " <Snowbow Wednesday, May 14, 2003 10:24 AM Re: regarding unclean women > Hi Tom > > > Yeah, fair enough, but whatever the reason, good or ill, any sicko who > wraps > > a woman in a burka and denies her freedom and education deserves what they > > get. > > And which members of the Taliban got what they deserve? Last I heard was > that around 5,000 civilians had been killed by the original bombing, tens of > thousands since the bombing because we aren't now taking responsibility for > the mess we've left the country in, and that the only people who have been > accused of being Taliban have been held ***without trial*** in battery cages > and subjected to ritual torture for the past two years. Not one of those has > had a proven connection with the Talban or with any terrorist organisation - > so, as I say, which members of the Taliban are you talking about? > > BB > Peter > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 17, 2003 I read about what the Taliban were doing to women and others years ago. It was not a secret, and I for one was thankful that someone went in and put a stop to their barbarism. Tom - " Peter " <Snowbow Wednesday, May 14, 2003 10:13 AM Re: regarding unclean women > Hi Danielle > > > OK, but for years, feminist groups were trying to get someone to pay > > attention to these human rights violations, but nobody gave a damn. Dubya > > even gave the Taliban $43 million in May 2001, supposedly to assist in > their > > crackdown on poppy farmers. To hear him excoriate them makes me ill. > > Actually, to hear him excoriate any human rights violator ticks me off, as > > he supports one of the greatest examples of human rights violations in the > > world: the Saudi Arabian government. > > Don't forget that he is also responsible for Guantanemo. > > BB > Peter > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 17, 2003 What women were slaughtered in their thousands? Verifiable facts please. Tom - Peter Wednesday, May 14, 2003 10:06 AM Re: regarding unclean women Hi Tom > I agree. Obviously I'm not a fan of any organised religion, but the way Islam treats women frankly makes me sick. Whatever you > think of the US going into Afghanistan, personally I'm not sorry those evil Taliban * & %$ were blown into Allah's open arms (and I > hope they enjoyed their 70 virgins when they got there). So, because you dislike the way women were treated in Afghanistan, you are pleased that those same women were slaughtered in their thousands in order to let Dick Cheney dig an oil pipeline through the country. Good logic. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 18, 2003 Hi Tom > The same Taliban (or their supporters) that whipped, imprisoned, and > executed both men and women for breaking their " rules " , and who destroyed > centuries-old irreplaceable Buddah statues that were an affront to their > religion. Show no mercy, expect no mercy. But you have completely missed the point. No-one has been found guilty of being a member of the Taliban or doing any of these things you talk about. No-one has even been tried. Or are you saying that the most basic human right of a fair trial should be denied to individuals just because the US government says they are Taliban? In our other conversation, you have been very keen to see everything " proved " - why should there be no burden of proof before submitting someone to frequent torture? BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 18, 2003 Hi Tom > I read about what the Taliban were doing to women and others years ago. It > was not a secret, and I for one was thankful that someone went in and put a > stop to their barbarism. Really - which bit of the barbarism has stopped? The only difference in Afghanistan now is that the basic standard of living is even lower than it was under the Taliban. It's just not splashed all across the media now because Mr Cheney has the pipeline he wanted so doesn't need to convince us that something needs to be done in Afghanistan. And since we're on the subject of US imperialism and aggression - here's a list of countries bombed by the US since the end of WWII - perhaps you could tell me how many of these have resulted in any improvement of living standard, or of the installation of a democratic government respectful of human rights as a result (I'll give you a clue - it's less than one): China 1945-46 Korea 1950-53 China 1950-53 Guatemala 1954 Indonesia 1958 Cuba 1959-60 Guatemala 1960 Congo 1964 Peru 1965 Laos 1964-73 Vietnam 1961-73 Cambodia 1969-70 Guatemala 1967-69 Grenada 1983 Libya 1986 El Salvador 1980s Nicaragua 1980s Panama 1989 Iraq 1991-99 Sudan 1998 Afghanistan 1998 Yugoslavia 1999 BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 18, 2003 Hi Tom > What women were slaughtered in their thousands? Verifiable facts please. So, what do you reckon happens when you blanket bomb a country? Do you think that it's just a nice firework display? If you've got any doubts, try moving to the next country the US pick on (my bets on Syria) - then make sure you're in a place where they're bombing and see how many people think it's just a nice firework display. I think you'll find the burden of proof would be on the person making the extraordinary claim that blanket bombing doesn't kill anyone, since all the evidence is to the contrary. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 18, 2003 If that was the reason for them going into Afghanistan (and not the fact that Dick Cheney wanted to drive a pipe line through the country) why didn't they help the Afghan women many years before hand - when it was open knowledge that they were being treated badly. Or is it just possible that our governments didn't actually give a * about the Afghan women. Jo - " Vegecentric " <vegecentric Saturday, May 17, 2003 6:09 AM Re: regarding unclean women > I read about what the Taliban were doing to women and others years ago. It > was not a secret, and I for one was thankful that someone went in and put a > stop to their barbarism. > > Tom > > - > " Peter " <Snowbow > > Wednesday, May 14, 2003 10:13 AM > Re: regarding unclean women > > > > Hi Danielle > > > > > OK, but for years, feminist groups were trying to get someone to pay > > > attention to these human rights violations, but nobody gave a damn. > Dubya > > > even gave the Taliban $43 million in May 2001, supposedly to assist in > > their > > > crackdown on poppy farmers. To hear him excoriate them makes me ill. > > > Actually, to hear him excoriate any human rights violator ticks me off, > as > > > he supports one of the greatest examples of human rights violations in > the > > > world: the Saudi Arabian government. > > > > Don't forget that he is also responsible for Guantanemo. > > > > BB > > Peter > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 18, 2003 If not many innocent citizens were killed in the Afghan bombing why did the American government feel the need to stop the official body count? There is an unofficial body count now for the Iraq war but you don't hear much about the 2000 + innocent citizens killed, do you? Jo What women were slaughtered in their thousands? Verifiable facts please. Tom ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 18, 2003 In the war against Iraq, thousands of civilians died, many of them noncombatant women and children. Iraq is a lawless hellhole, and forces have not found a shred of evidence that Hussein ever had weapons of mass destruction. " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- " Vegecentric " <vegecentric Re: regarding unclean women Fri, 16 May 2003 22:11:49 -0700 What women were slaughtered in their thousands? Verifiable facts please. Tom - Peter Wednesday, May 14, 2003 10:06 AM Re: regarding unclean women Hi Tom > I agree. Obviously I'm not a fan of any organised religion, but the way Islam treats women frankly makes me sick. Whatever you > think of the US going into Afghanistan, personally I'm not sorry those evil Taliban * & %$ were blown into Allah's open arms (and I > hope they enjoyed their 70 virgins when they got there). So, because you dislike the way women were treated in Afghanistan, you are pleased that those same women were slaughtered in their thousands in order to let Dick Cheney dig an oil pipeline through the country. Good logic. BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 18, 2003 Jo, I thought the war in Iraq was about Bush and Cheney wanting an oil grab, and attacking Afghanistan was purely revenge. My boyfriend likens it to attacking the landlord--you know, a guy who lives with his mom commits a horrible crime, so law enforcement burns down his mom's house. Now the connection between the Taliban and al Qaeda is clear; the former provided shelter to the latter, and maybe a few weapons here and there. Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- " Heartwork " <Heartwork Re: regarding unclean women Sun, 18 May 2003 12:54:33 +0100 If that was the reason for them going into Afghanistan (and not the fact that Dick Cheney wanted to drive a pipe line through the country) why didn't they help the Afghan women many years before hand - when it was open knowledge that they were being treated badly. Or is it just possible that our governments didn't actually give a * about the Afghan women. Jo - " Vegecentric " <vegecentric Saturday, May 17, 2003 6:09 AM Re: regarding unclean women > I read about what the Taliban were doing to women and others years ago. It > was not a secret, and I for one was thankful that someone went in and put a > stop to their barbarism. > > Tom > > - > " Peter " <Snowbow > > Wednesday, May 14, 2003 10:13 AM > Re: regarding unclean women > > > > Hi Danielle > > > > > OK, but for years, feminist groups were trying to get someone to pay > > > attention to these human rights violations, but nobody gave a damn. > Dubya > > > even gave the Taliban $43 million in May 2001, supposedly to assist in > > their > > > crackdown on poppy farmers. To hear him excoriate them makes me ill. > > > Actually, to hear him excoriate any human rights violator ticks me off, > as > > > he supports one of the greatest examples of human rights violations in > the > > > world: the Saudi Arabian government. > > > > Don't forget that he is also responsible for Guantanemo. > > > > BB > > Peter > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 18, 2003 and why not help saudi women too........in saudi arabia women dont even have birth certificates........because they dont exist......... catherine >"Heartwork" > > >Re: regarding unclean women >Sun, 18 May 2003 12:54:33 +0100 > >If that was the reason for them going into Afghanistan (and not the fact >that Dick Cheney wanted to drive a pipe line through the country) why didn't >they help the Afghan women many years before hand - when it was open >knowledge that they were being treated badly. Or is it just possible that >our governments didn't actually give a * about the Afghan women. > >Jo >- >"Vegecentric" > >Saturday, May 17, 2003 6:09 AM >Re: regarding unclean women > > > > I read about what the Taliban were doing to women and others years ago. It > > was not a secret, and I for one was thankful that someone went in and put >a > > stop to their barbarism. > > > > Tom > > > > - > > "Peter" > > > > Wednesday, May 14, 2003 10:13 AM > > Re: regarding unclean women > > > > > > > Hi Danielle > > > > > > > OK, but for years, feminist groups were trying to get someone to pay > > > > attention to these human rights violations, but nobody gave a damn. > > Dubya > > > > even gave the Taliban $43 million in May 2001, supposedly to assist in > > > their > > > > crackdown on poppy farmers. To hear him excoriate them makes me ill. > > > > Actually, to hear him excoriate any human rights violator ticks me >off, > > as > > > > he supports one of the greatest examples of human rights violations in > > the > > > > world: the Saudi Arabian government. > > > > > > Don't forget that he is also responsible for Guantanemo. > > > > > > BB > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > --- > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > > Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 > > > > > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 18, 2003 Danielle I was talking about Afghanistan. I think both of the wars and the previous Gulf war had various elements, including oil, but I think that is not the whole story. Jo >> I thought the war in Iraq was about Bush and Cheney wanting an oil grab, and > attacking Afghanistan was purely revenge. My boyfriend likens it to > attacking the landlord--you know, a guy who lives with his mom commits a > horrible crime, so law enforcement burns down his mom's house. Now the > connection between the Taliban and al Qaeda is clear; the former provided > shelter to the latter, and maybe a few weapons here and there. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 18, 2003 also why don't they help the people in Africa who have suffered such appauling atrocities over the years? Jo and why not help saudi women too........in saudi arabia women dont even have birth certificates........because they dont exist......... ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 18, 2003 Hi Catherine > and why not help saudi women too........in saudi arabia women dont even have birth certificates........because they dont > exist......... Not in any way wishing to play down the inequality in Saudi Arabia (which clearly does exist) - but do men have birth certificates? The reason I ask is that I knew someone who had been born in India and wanted to get married in Holland - under Dutch law he had to present his birth certificate, but the area he was born in simply didn't record births. He had to 'phone up the Indian consulate in Holland, and their response was "tell us what details you want on the certificate and we'll send one to you"! Now, I know India isn't Saudi Arabia, but the point I'm making is that births aren't recorded in every country. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2003 You mean, like the Congo, which is becoming murder capital of the world? Because Bush II wants to keep our minds on Iraq--which has no weapons of mass destruction--and tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts. Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- " Heartwork " <Heartwork Re: regarding unclean women Sun, 18 May 2003 20:08:51 +0100 also why don't they help the people in Africa who have suffered such appauling atrocities over the years? Jo and why not help saudi women too........in saudi arabia women dont even have birth certificates........because they dont exist......... --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 _______________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2003 Ah yes, but sometimes allowing it to happen is the only choice. Let's see, threatening me son's life. Shoot, I'd do anything fer me child, so i would allow the control to happen. Yer right, there's always a choice, doesn't mean yer making it fer yerself! nikki , EBbrewpunx@c... wrote: > In a message dated 5/16/03 9:23:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > Snowbow@b... writes: > > > > The only way that a person can be controlled by another is if they allow it > > to happen. > > > > ah..just like we are here in america today > > sometimes you can't help but be controlled > its easy to be overwhelmed, its easy to feel alone, to go along with the > status quo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2003 >I read about what the Taliban were doing to women and others years ago. It >was not a secret, and I for one was thankful that someone went in and put a >stop to their barbarism. their barbarism came as a result of 20 years of war... after the soviets invaded there was war on a never ending scale.... then, the soviets pulled out, and we stopped fundin all those cute little groups...the country didn't have much going for it, and collapsed even futher..it was divided up amongst competing tribal warlords..you couldn't go around the corner sometimes cuz it was another war lords territory.. the taliban came to power in this because they said they would bring the power of God to the people, stop the street rapings, stop the random violence, etc, so, they got a big following... instead, they brought codified violence and strict unyielding view of the world which was frozen in a sect of Islam stuck in the 11th century... that is how those "barbarians" came to power.. maybe if we hadn't abandoned those people to fate after we had our fill, maybe this wouldn't have happened.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2003 In a message dated 5/18/03 3:27:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Snowbow writes: So, what do you reckon happens when you blanket bomb a country? Do you think that it's just a nice firework display? If you've got any doubts, try moving to the next country the US pick on (my bets on Syria) - then make sure you're in a place where they're bombing and see how many people think it's just a nice firework display. its 50-50 iran er syria in my view... syria smaller and easier to beat up therefor...also..isreal is right there...iran on the other hand...theocracy with lotsa oil, a lot more then syria... its a toss up whom we'll bomb into smithereens...iran maybe first also cuz they have a nuclear program we can use to justify... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2003 In a message dated 5/18/03 12:10:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Heartwork writes: also why don't they help the people in Africa who have suffered such appauling atrocities over the years? no oil not part of the grand scheme as of yet... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2003 In a message dated 5/19/03 5:22:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, vegecentric writes: I was actually refering to the Taliban in Afghanistan, but I agree, deaths of all innocent people are tragic in the extreme, but you can't also ignore the hundreds of thousands of people Hussein killed and would most likely have continued to kill if he had remained in power. soooo we killed thousands more to "liberate" the iraqis..when fer years, we supplied the arms and means for saddam to kill his own people..... makes a whole lot of sense.... and..look around..thousands of iraqis want the US out of iraq...they protest daily..when they aren't being shot at.... looting and murder have skyrocketed continually... so much fer bringing freedom and stability to the people.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2003 In a message dated 5/19/03 5:32:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time, vegecentric writes: , I would not be sorry to see them destroyed, as the Iraqi people were happy to see their dictator go. If the coalition was fighting the whole Iraqi people, as in Vietnam, their victory would not have been nearly so brief, ummm but.. victory isn't complete.... just like in afghanistan, there is still fighting going on.. just because there aren't tank battles taking place, don't assume the war is over.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2003 Hi Nikki > Ah yes, but sometimes allowing it to happen is the only choice. > Let's see, threatening me son's life. Shoot, I'd do anything fer me > child, so i would allow the control to happen. > Yer right, there's always a choice, doesn't mean yer making it fer > yerself! Exactly - the choice is not necessarily a pleasant one, but it is still a choice. BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
