Cats debate via other thoughts

March 31, 2003

Mooooooooooooooooo,

How can you defend AR without defending habitat from human spoilation like

road building, forest clearing, *pesticides*, GM, killing for sport,

breeding/releasing large numbers of *pet* predators like domestic cats?

In the last 10,000 years, how many animal species have *died out* without

human cause?

Natural predators like foxes do NOT exterminate their own prey!

Edith the conservationist

> " Angie Wright " <angiewright

>

>RE: Cats debate via other thoughts

>Mon, 31 Mar 2003 06:42:29 +0100

>

>I am not a conservationist -but people link it directly to

>AR and veganism

>

>Angie !!!

>

>I completely agree Angie. I remember once having great difficulty

>explaining to someone that if a species is dying out, and for reasons

>other than human created ones, then what right do we have to force its

>continuation, and they just couldn't understand the point.

>

>Michael

>

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March 31, 2003

-

" Angie Wright " <angiewright

Monday, March 31, 2003 6:35 AM

RE: Cats debate via other thoughts

I wouldn't go as far as force feeding them non-animal foods, But if they

really prefered to go out and hunt live animals for food then it would be

their decision.

Simon

> And if they decide not too ?

>

> Angie

>

> Do not cats have the right to choose to eat what ever they want to! if

> they decide to eat a vegan meal that someones' given to them surly

> that's their choice.

>

> Simon

>

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March 31, 2003

The problem with that argument is that we are always involved...whether by

ruining habitats, introducing foreign species of animal(pigs in Australia, for

instance are endangering crocidiles due to scavenging of nests) or of non-

native plant species...we also cause introductions of certain pests and fungi

and even bacteria...so even on a molecular level we are responsible for the

huge majority of die-outs...I can't even think of one example where people were

not in some way involved in the endangerment of a species....even if it seems

so on the surface...looking deeper usually uncovers a human cause.

Also, if we are going to start running with the survival of the fittest

discourse, we have to keep in mind that we don't practice that ourselves...we

give sick children medicines and surgeries to keep them alive when in the wild,

even something as seemingly minor as an ear infection would kill many

children...

Quoting mavreela <nec.lists:

> > Surely it should be the survival of the fittest , If cats are surviving

> > then so be it . How is it anti ecological ? Who decides what is

> > ecological Humans ?

>

> I completely agree Angie. I remember once having great difficulty

> explaining to someone that if a species is dying out, and for reasons

> other than human created ones, then what right do we have to force its

> continuation, and they just couldn't understand the point.

>

> Michael

>

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March 31, 2003

> we also cause introductions of certain pests and fungi

> and even bacteria...so even on a molecular level we are responsible

> for the

> huge majority of die-outs...

As we are also part of nature, what makes us having that affect on the

world unnatural?

> Also, if we are going to start running with the survival of the fittest

> discourse

We're not, but that aside I take it you haven't been reading your

Darwin lately...

> we don't practice that ourselves...we

> give sick children medicines and surgeries to keep them alive

....see the point that Charles was trying to make with the survival of

the fittest is not that the strongest or the most intelligent survive,

but those who best adapt to their environment. Do you not think that

developing surgeries and medicine count as humans adapting to the

situation in which we find ourselves? Darwin would.

Of course there are lots of arguments for and against survival of the

fittest, and plenty of tangents we could go off and explore but the

self-importance of humanity in thinking that it knows what is best for

the environment, that it should give nature a " helping hand " , that

everything wrong with the world has to be because of humanity is the

point I am making. Who are we to say how the world should be, and on

what authority? The damage is already done and if we keep meddling we

are more likely to makes things worse rather than better.

I always have a laugh when I hear environmentalists (some, not all of

course) go on about how we all share the same planet and that we are no

different to any other species and so have no more rights, yet at the

same time bemoaning that anything that is a product of humanity as

though we have a separate existence outside of nature, that anything

and everything we do is unnatural, and that we should strive to avoid

any impact on the planet or any other species while not saying that the

same should be true of any other living organism.

Maybe those environmentalists, and those who think they can act with no

regard for nature, are some kind of higher beings who existence is

external to the forces of nature, but I'm not.

Michael

March 31, 2003

Shawna (I almost put " The mysterious shawnam " then trawled through old posts

and found one you'd signed...) said :

> Also, if we are going to start running with the survival of

> the fittest discourse, we have to keep in mind that we don't practice

> that ourselves...we give sick children medicines and surgeries to keep

them alive

> when in the wild, even something as seemingly minor as an ear infection

would kill many

> children...

And it's an emotional line that's drawn, not even an economic one... for the

money pumped into various really rather rare western conditions we could be

providing nice clean water supplies and food for starving people...

Steve W

March 31, 2003

Unfortunately, I have been reading Darwin lately (I am a biology/preveterinary

student) and do not consider him infallible...

also, one could argue that medicines have impeded rather than accentuated our

evolution....our species have not physiologically or morphologically adapted to

our surroundings in a relatively long time due to the effects of " civilization "

and thus access to pharmeceuticals, etc...

As part of our awareness of our " Natural " impact on the environment/habitats,

etc., my opinion is that we have a responsibility to minimize that impact

especially considering the fact that if we keep going at our " natural " rate of

consumption of habitat/other species/etc, the biodiversity of the planet will

be greatly impacted, probably to the point where we ourselves would die off as

biodiversity is vital to existance of all creatures, including humans...so,

really it comes down to a matter of self-preservation which was also a favorite

topic of Darwin and other scientists of note...it's BECAUSE we are an INTRICATE

part of nature that conservation is important, not because we are somehow

separate from it.

I have to admit I'm confused by the ides of a non-

conservationist/Environmentalist Vegan...seems a bit oxymoronic to me...

Quoting mavreela <nec.lists:

> > we also cause introductions of certain pests and fungi

> > and even bacteria...so even on a molecular level we are responsible

> > for the

> > huge majority of die-outs...

>

> As we are also part of nature, what makes us having that affect on the

> world unnatural?

>

> > Also, if we are going to start running with the survival of the fittest

> > discourse

>

> We're not, but that aside I take it you haven't been reading your

> Darwin lately...

>

> > we don't practice that ourselves...we

> > give sick children medicines and surgeries to keep them alive

>

> ...see the point that Charles was trying to make with the survival of

> the fittest is not that the strongest or the most intelligent survive,

> but those who best adapt to their environment. Do you not think that

> developing surgeries and medicine count as humans adapting to the

> situation in which we find ourselves? Darwin would.

>

> Of course there are lots of arguments for and against survival of the

> fittest, and plenty of tangents we could go off and explore but the

> self-importance of humanity in thinking that it knows what is best for

> the environment, that it should give nature a " helping hand " , that

> everything wrong with the world has to be because of humanity is the

> point I am making. Who are we to say how the world should be, and on

> what authority? The damage is already done and if we keep meddling we

> are more likely to makes things worse rather than better.

>

> I always have a laugh when I hear environmentalists (some, not all of

> course) go on about how we all share the same planet and that we are no

> different to any other species and so have no more rights, yet at the

> same time bemoaning that anything that is a product of humanity as

> though we have a separate existence outside of nature, that anything

> and everything we do is unnatural, and that we should strive to avoid

> any impact on the planet or any other species while not saying that the

> same should be true of any other living organism.

>

> Maybe those environmentalists, and those who think they can act with no

> regard for nature, are some kind of higher beings who existence is

> external to the forces of nature, but I'm not.

>

> Michael

>

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March 31, 2003

what is it .. something like 1 in 7 people have AIDS in Africa? ...

Steve Welburn [] And it's an emotional line that's drawn, not even an economic one... for themoney pumped into various really rather rare western conditions we could beproviding nice clean water supplies and food for starving people...Steve W

March 31, 2003

you're either an American or you're not... whether you're an American or not...

mavreela [nec.lists] Maybe those environmentalists, and those who think they can act with no regard for nature, are some kind of higher beings who existence is external to the forces of nature, but I'm not.Michael

March 31, 2003

-

" mavreela " <nec.lists

Monday, March 31, 2003 12:04 AM

Re: Cats debate via other thoughts

So when have you known a cat to hunt down another animal and eat it when it

has chosen to eat what a human has provided?

Simon

> > Do not cats have the right to choose to eat what ever they want to!

>

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March 31, 2003

My cats did (when i was 11)... well they chose to do both... we lived in the middle of nowhere ... had two cats ... they ate what we fed them ... and they went out and did what they did ... hunted or played or lay in the grass... who cares ... they were just getting on with life....

not quite sure if they actually ate what they hunted... i guess they must have done... rabbits, mice ... the occasional badger ... and the occasional fox fight ...

simonpjones [simonpjones] 31 March 2003 20:07 Subject: Re: Cats debate via other thoughtsSo when have you known a cat to hunt down another animal and eat it when ithas chosen to eat what a human has provided?Simon

March 31, 2003

-

" Angie Wright " <angiewright

Monday, March 31, 2003 6:35 AM

RE: Cats debate via other thoughts

I've never heard of a cat eating a mouse or a hamster before when food is

provided by a human, And if I saw a cat or a dog attacking another animal I

would try and stop it . My view is if an animal can survive on a none animal

diet then it has less rights then an animal that is about to be attacked and

eaten.

I'll put it this way. If an animal can live happily

on a vegans diet and a human can, Why are we encouraging humans to stop

eating animals and not encouraging more animals to stop eationg animals.?

Simon

> And if they decide not too ?

>

> Angie

>

> Do not cats have the right to choose to eat what ever they want to! if

> they decide to eat a vegan meal that someones' given to them surly

> that's their choice.

>

> Simon

>

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March 31, 2003

some people I know have outdoor/indoor cats and they eat

mice/moles/squirrels/rabbits, etc. more than they do their store-bought

food...which is meat, too since they're not vegan there...

Quoting simonpjones <simonpjones:

>

> -

> " Angie Wright " <angiewright

>

> Monday, March 31, 2003 6:35 AM

> RE: Cats debate via other thoughts

>

> I've never heard of a cat eating a mouse or a hamster before when food is

> provided by a human, And if I saw a cat or a dog attacking another animal I

> would try and stop it . My view is if an animal can survive on a none animal

> diet then it has less rights then an animal that is about to be attacked and

> eaten.

> I'll put it this way. If an animal can live happily

> on a vegans diet and a human can, Why are we encouraging humans to stop

> eating animals and not encouraging more animals to stop eationg animals.?

>

> Simon

>

> > And if they decide not too ?

> >

> > Angie

> >

> > Do not cats have the right to choose to eat what ever they want to! if

> > they decide to eat a vegan meal that someones' given to them surly

> > that's their choice.

> >

> > Simon

> >

> > ---

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March 31, 2003

-

<shawnam

Monday, March 31, 2003 8:33 PM

Re: Cats debate via other thoughts

I 've seen cats catch mice and bring them in doors to play with and kill but

have never seen a cat eat one>

I've seen a cat playing with a fox, but never kill and eat a fox!

What kind of cats do you have out there?

Simon

some people I know have outdoor/indoor cats and they eat

> mice/moles/squirrels/rabbits, etc. more than they do their store-bought

> food...which is meat, too since they're not vegan there...

>

> Quoting simonpjones <simonpjones:

>

> >

> > -

> > " Angie Wright " <angiewright

> >

> > Monday, March 31, 2003 6:35 AM

> > RE: Cats debate via other thoughts

> >

> > I've never heard of a cat eating a mouse or a hamster before when food

is

> > provided by a human, And if I saw a cat or a dog attacking another

animal I

> > would try and stop it . My view is if an animal can survive on a none

animal

> > diet then it has less rights then an animal that is about to be attacked

and

> > eaten.

> > I'll put it this way. If an animal can live happily

> > on a vegans diet and a human can, Why are we encouraging humans to stop

> > eating animals and not encouraging more animals to stop eationg

animals.?

> >

> > Simon

> >

> > > And if they decide not too ?

> > >

> > > Angie

> > >

> > > Do not cats have the right to choose to eat what ever they want to! if

> > > they decide to eat a vegan meal that someones' given to them surly

> > > that's their choice.

> > >

> > > Simon

> > >

> > > ---

> > >

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March 31, 2003

> Unfortunately, I have been reading Darwin lately (I am a

> biology/preveterinary

> student) and do not consider him infallible...

Who is though? I was just pointing out a very common misconception of

what he meant by survival of the fittest, I was not saying he was right.

> also, one could argue that medicines have impeded rather than

> accentuated our

> evolution....our species have not physiologically or morphologically

> adapted to

> our surroundings in a relatively long time due to the effects of

> " civilization "

> and thus access to pharmeceuticals, etc...

Indeed so.

> my opinion is that we have a responsibility to minimize that impact

I agree entirely, the difference between us is probably that I do not

think that we should minimize to the point of invisibility.

> it's BECAUSE we are an INTRICATE

> part of nature that conservation is important, not because we are

> somehow

> separate from it.

What do you mean by conservation? It isn't a word I've used, do you

mean like killing hundreds of ducks because they are the wrong type of

duck, or do you mean trying to preserve natural habitats or revert land

back to it's original " use " ?

> I have to admit I'm confused by the ides of a non-

> conservationist/Environmentalist Vegan...seems a bit oxymoronic to

> me...

Most vegans have trouble with the idea of vegans who have different

beliefs to their own though. You're lucky to have missed the " who's

the most vegan " holier than thou type discussions of the past. I'm

surprised no one hasn't knocked up a " You're not a vegan if... " type

list that no one would be able to pass, it would be very easy to do.

I like to think for myself though and if I don't fit into a box, and

you're confused by me then I'll take that as a compliment!

Michael

March 31, 2003

> So when have you known a cat to hunt down another animal and eat it

> when it

> has chosen to eat what a human has provided?

Hmm, tough question, I would say about 1990 but I could be wrong. It

was when my sister had a cat though, I think it was around then. I

haven't really known any cats since though so I can't comment as to

whether they experienced a sudden evolutionary change.

Michael

March 31, 2003

> I've never heard of a cat eating a mouse or a hamster before when food

> is

> provided by a human,

Why mouse or hamster? Why not bird, have you heard about that? You've

twice heard tonight of a cat eating other animals when provided with

food by humans, and this is a very small sampling. I take it you will

reconsider your views in light of this new information?

> My view is if an animal can survive on a none animal

> diet then it has less rights then an animal that is about to be

> attacked and

> eaten.

That's not your view! You view is, and I quote from Angie's reply

which you included in the same email, " Do not cats have the right to

choose to eat what ever they want to! " .

Lesley will probably tell me off again but you contradicted yourself

quite blatantly in the same email there.

Michael

March 31, 2003

I'm not telling you off this time, it's fine to point out a contradiction, but I didn't think much of you calling him mad.

Lesley

mavreela [nec.lists]31 March 2003 23:14 Subject: Re: Cats debate via other thoughtsLesley will probably tell me off again but you contradicted yourself quite blatantly in the same email there.Michael~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to -

March 31, 2003

My friend's cats catch & kill small animals/birds despite her feeding them.

There's always food down for them. The cats don't eat what they kill but

they kill it nevertheless. From what I've heard/read a lot of cats do this.

But don't worry Simon, I'm going to visit them at Easter & will give them a

good talking to...

Viv

simonpjones [simonpjones]

Monday, March 31, 2003 8:31 PM

Re: Cats debate via other thoughts

-

" Angie Wright " <angiewright

Monday, March 31, 2003 6:35 AM

RE: Cats debate via other thoughts

I've never heard of a cat eating a mouse or a hamster before when food is

provided by a human, And if I saw a cat or a dog attacking another animal I

would try and stop it . My view is if an animal can survive on a none animal

diet then it has less rights then an animal that is about to be attacked and

eaten.

I'll put it this way. If an animal can live happily

on a vegans diet and a human can, Why are we encouraging humans to stop

eating animals and not encouraging more animals to stop eationg animals.?

Simon

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April 1, 2003

If they died out they were not fit to survive . I think we will destroy

the planet due to greed We will kill ourselves off --one way or another

and leave the planet with a minimum number of humans and then the planet

will find its natural balance again .

If we cannot stop a war (killing humans -the important species - ! ) I

cannot see road building / GM etc ever being stopped

We have to get rid off the problem species but we will no doubt do it by

accident .Many species will survive us if we don't actually destroy the

planet completely

How can you defend AR without defending habitat from human spoilation

like

road building, forest clearing, *pesticides*, GM, killing for sport,

breeding/releasing large numbers of *pet* predators like domestic cats?

In the last 10,000 years, how many animal species have *died out*

without

human cause?

Natural predators like foxes do NOT exterminate their own prey!

Edith the conservationist

> " Angie Wright " <angiewright

>

>RE: Cats debate via other thoughts

>Mon, 31 Mar 2003 06:42:29 +0100

>

>I am not a conservationist -but people link it directly to

>AR and veganism

>

>Angie !!!

>

>I completely agree Angie. I remember once having great difficulty

>explaining to someone that if a species is dying out, and for reasons

>other than human created ones, then what right do we have to force its

>continuation, and they just couldn't understand the point.

>

>Michael

>

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>

April 1, 2003

But if I saw them about to attack a mouse I would feel obliged to

intervene to allow mouse to escape --same as if I saw you being attacked

!!!---- I think

I wouldn't go as far as force feeding them non-animal foods, But if they

really prefered to go out and hunt live animals for food then it would

be their decision.

Simon

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April 1, 2003

have you ever been to Komodo Island ? ...

feeding time is midday i think ...

>

> simonpjones [simonpjones]

>

> I've never heard of a cat eating a mouse or a hamster before

> when food is provided by a human, And if I saw a cat or a

> dog attacking another animal I would try and stop it . My

> view is if an animal can survive on a none animal diet then

> it has less rights then an animal that is about to be

> attacked and eaten. I'll put it this way. If an animal can

> live happily on a vegans diet and a human can, Why are we

> encouraging humans to stop eating animals and not encouraging

> more animals to stop eationg animals.?

>

> Simon

**

April 1, 2003

Viv's friends are obviously not vegan or they would not support nasty pet

predators and they deserve a good KICKING.

(Note the spelling.)

(That is my little joke for Viv who is a fat tart with fifteen chins.)

xx

Edith

> " Viv " <vc27

>

>RE: Cats debate via other thoughts

>Mon, 31 Mar 2003 23:59:01 +0100

>

>My friend's cats catch & kill small animals/birds despite her feeding them.

>There's always food down for them. The cats don't eat what they kill but

>they kill it nevertheless. From what I've heard/read a lot of cats do this.

>But don't worry Simon, I'm going to visit them at Easter & will give them a

>good talking to...

>

>Viv

>

>simonpjones [simonpjones]

>Monday, March 31, 2003 8:31 PM

>

>Re: Cats debate via other thoughts

>

>-

> " Angie Wright " <angiewright

>

>Monday, March 31, 2003 6:35 AM

>RE: Cats debate via other thoughts

>

>I've never heard of a cat eating a mouse or a hamster before when food is

>provided by a human, And if I saw a cat or a dog attacking another animal

>I

>would try and stop it . My view is if an animal can survive on a none

>animal

>diet then it has less rights then an animal that is about to be attacked

>and

>eaten.

>I'll put it this way. If an animal can live happily

>on a vegans diet and a human can, Why are we encouraging humans to stop

>eating animals and not encouraging more animals to stop eationg animals.?

>

>Simon

>

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April 1, 2003

I've seen a mouse eat a lion before when it ran out of seeds but never a cat

eat a mouse.

Simon

-

" Oliver Slay " <oliver

Tuesday, April 01, 2003 10:16 AM

RE: Cats debate via other thoughts

> have you ever been to Komodo Island ? ...

>

> feeding time is midday i think ...

>

> >

> > simonpjones [simonpjones]

> >

> > I've never heard of a cat eating a mouse or a hamster before

> > when food is provided by a human, And if I saw a cat or a

> > dog attacking another animal I would try and stop it . My

> > view is if an animal can survive on a none animal diet then

> > it has less rights then an animal that is about to be

> > attacked and eaten. I'll put it this way. If an animal can

> > live happily on a vegans diet and a human can, Why are we

> > encouraging humans to stop eating animals and not encouraging

> > more animals to stop eationg animals.?

> >

> > Simon

>

> **

>

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April 1, 2003

You're just jealous that I have friends which, obviously, you don't.

And the chins are now up to 17 - get it right slag!

Viv

"You'll Never Walk Alone with a Basenji" www.veganvillage.co.uk www.bookcrossing.com - free a book today! www.vegansociety.com

slg edith [slgedith]Tuesday, April 01, 2003 7:46 PM Subject: RE: Cats debate via other thoughtsViv's friends are obviously not vegan or they would not support nasty pet predators and they deserve a good KICKING.(Note the spelling.)(That is my little joke for Viv who is a fat tart with fifteen chins.)xxEdith>"Viv" <vc27> >>RE: Cats debate via other thoughts>Mon, 31 Mar 2003 23:59:01 +0100>>My friend's cats catch & kill small animals/birds despite her feeding them.>There's always food down for them. The cats don't eat what they kill but>they kill it nevertheless. From what I've heard/read a lot of cats do this.>But don't worry Simon, I'm going to visit them at Easter & will give them a>good talking to...>>Viv>>>simonpjones [simonpjones]>Monday, March 31, 2003 8:31 PM> >Re: Cats debate via other thoughts>>>>->"Angie Wright" <angiewright>>Monday, March 31, 2003 6:35 AM>RE: Cats debate via other thoughts>>>I've never heard of a cat eating a mouse or a hamster before when food is>provided by a human, And if I saw a cat or a dog attacking another animal >I>would try and stop it . My view is if an animal can survive on a none >animal>diet then it has less rights then an animal that is about to be attacked >and>eaten.>I'll put it this way. If an animal can live happily>on a vegans diet and a human can, Why are we encouraging humans to stop>eating animals and not encouraging more animals to stop eationg animals.?>>Simon>>>>--->Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).>Version: 6.0.465 / Virus Database: 263 - Release 25/03/03>>>>~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author,>there may be another side to the story you have not heard.>--------------------------->Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>>Un: send a blank message to - >>

April 2, 2003

the chins are now up to 17

>Viv

Well I want to juggle them.

" Wobble wobble wobble "

--Edith

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