School discussion

[Guest guest]

David - where did you go to school? Where do you live?

 

Of my graduating class from PCOM NY I would hazard a guess that over 60%

are in practice at least part time. Many of them teach and write and do

other things related to the field in addition to their practice. I do

think that the percent of individuals in practice has something to do with

where they graduate from, where they live and whether or not they are

willing to move to a more underserved area.

 

Marnae

 

At 09:43 PM 11/3/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>At 08:32 PM 11/3/2003, you wrote:

> >Marnae,

> >

> > , Marnae Ergil <marnae@p...>

> >wrote:

> > > Ken - these statistics are not published and ACAOM does not have the

> right

> > > to release them. They are figures that each school generates and they

> > > become a part of the school's self-study. This is not a public document.

> > >

> > > Marnae

> > >

> > > At 11:12 PM 11/3/2003 +0000, you wrote:

> > > >Julie,

> > > > >

> > > > > Every accredited school has to submit annual statistics on the

> > > > percentage of

> > > > > their graduates who are practicing, full time, part time, if part

> > time,

> > > > then

> > > > > by choice or not, etc.

> >

> >Thanks. Do you know why?

> >

> >It seems that such information would be

> >of enormous interest to potential students.

>

>Yes to potential students for sure and the rest of us as well ... no?

>

>But, lets say for the sake of an exercise ... the number is greater the

>10%.... would even 25% justify the time and expense of the undertaking ....

>75% of the grads never end up practicing.

>

>First ... I would say 25% is way high... and it still would not justify

>the schooling.. time and costs and all

>

>I was told the future is bright.... and lots of other stories... I do make

>a living .. hard won I might add. Most of the people I went to school with

>are no where to be found. Are more then 10% around...yes .. not a whole

>lot more.... but unlike me many have jobs like flight attendants, RNs LMTs

>etc... far less then 10% just make their living just from the practice of

>Oriental Medicine.

>

>

> >Ken

>

>

>David

>

> >Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

> >practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> >specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

> >professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Todd -

 

A lawsuit? Perhaps just an open request to compile this sort of

information - and more likely it would be addressed to the CCAOM and not to

ACAOM.

 

 

 

At 02:46 AM 11/4/2003 +0000, you wrote:

> , " David Sontag, DOM " <

>acudoc@b...> wrote:

>

>these statistics are not published and ACAOM does not have the right

> > >to release them.

> >

> > Hmm ... does not have the right?? or just does not wish to??

>

>They are legally prohibited. It is not a judgement call. But if ACAOM

>truly has

>this data, we all ethically deserve to see it in some form that does not

>violate

>either school or student confidentiality. If all the results from every

>school

>were collated and presented as one piece of data, no one would be outed and

>we would have what we need. Perhaps a lawsuit is in order. If exaggerated

>claims of success are being made to recruit students and they are untrue,

>this

>is a serious matter.

>

>Todd

>

>

>

>

>Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

>practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

>specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

>professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Todd -

 

The money I am making, so far is primarily from seeing patients. So far, I

have not made any profits from distributing Kampo herbs... this *I think*

takes more time. I generally charge $65.00/treatment and include herbs, if

needed. For some of my procedures I charge more or less... for example,

when I do IVF protocals I charge $500.00. I have had a really great success

rate with this procedure and feel that is what my worth is... for this

procedure. I charge less to students and seniors etc.

 

I feel one thing that has added to my doing well, is that I have been

willing to do insurances... which with Work Comp was a HUGE learning

curve... and now feel VERY comfortable with. Iam beginning to get allot of

referrals from word of mouth... which is really GREAT! Also, I have learned

to interact with MD's and get referrals from them. I know there is allot of

opportunity for our profession, on so many different levels!

 

Another thing I contribute to my doing well is that I have done over 400

CEU's, in the last 2 years. I believe the schools and our education only

scratch the surface... what is that saying... there our infinate ways to get

up the mountain, as there are to practice medicine? Having sat numerous

times with the California Board to write exams... what I have learned is

that our education and licensure is designed for entry level, into our

field... in other words *the Basics*. I feel it is imperative to continue

to learn more and to further our own individual healing... I believe all

this creates a foundation for doing well.

 

 

In health-

Teresa

 

 

-

" " <

 

Monday, November 03, 2003 10:58 PM

Re: School discussion

 

 

> Hi Teresa

>

> , " Teresa Hall " <

> Teresa.bodywork4u@w...> wrote:

>

> > >

> > I find this difficult to believe. I just finished my 2nd year of

practice

> > and am making twice that much and plan to double that, in the next 2

years.

>

>

> Sounds like you are off to a good start. Could I ask if this is your

income solely

> from seeing patients? Or do you include other things a person might do -

> write, teach, sales rep, etc.?

>

 

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/4/2003 12:09:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,

writes:

no ones stopping anyone from that. but degree granting schools have a

different mission and a different responsibility to the public.

 

My apologies. I thought we were talking about schooling above and beyond

the original masters program.

As a side, my school was very new when I went. The administration was

still developing the curriculum and the state was changing the requirements

seemly every year. What this meant for us was we as students had a major

influence on the curriculum as we gave feedback as to how long we really needed

to

understand and learn different aspects of our curriculum. We also requested

additions to the curriculum which helped us gain a better rounded education. I

believe the process was beneficial.

Schools that have had the time to work with the curriculum and iron our

the problems have the benefit of knowing what is best, because they have had

the time to find out what works best to bring the student understanding of the

courses up to the schools desired level of competency.

My opinion about students participation has been biased because of the

unusual situation of our school being so new and changing so much to meet

changes required by the state.

Thanks for your input,

Chris

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chris,

 

, Musiclear@a... wrote:

 

> Since we are talking Grad school, we can assume that many of the

> enrollees will be licensed and experienced.

 

I thought we are talking about the master's program. In which case students

are not yet licensed and experienced.

 

Given that, the question is, who knows

> better than the individual licensed professional, which direction they would

> like to go in their practice? What are the interests that would propel the

> partitioner deeper into an interest?

 

 

But even if we were talking about the second tier DAOM degree, is it really

students who know best. If a px thinks he knows where he wants to pursue

his studies, he always has the freedom to do so on his own. But students do

not design medical curriculums at any level. The idea behind the DAOM

program is that the material being offered there was not offered at the

master's. And after many years of consideration by the schools and

accreditors, various progams were designed. There are thus options for those

with different interests. for ex, only PCOM requires chinese language. But

OCOM does its internship in China. However, in each case, these options were

designed by those who do have the knowledge and experience the licensees

are lacking, either because they have advanced training or degrees

themselves. How can one who lacks the knowledge decise how to best teach

that knowledge or what knowledge is necessary. You might know you want to

pursue research or GYN and those options are vailable. But you cannot decide

at PCOM that you will study the shang hand lun, but not the nei jing, for ex.

 

To let the students at any level decide the curriculum would completely turn

the traditional master/apprentice system on its head. Right now, at least some

remnant of authority and transmission remain. Its not just anything goes.

Students need to have input, but this should rightly come in soliciting ideas

before the fact and evals after the fact. But med school cannot be run like UC

Santa Cruz where students completely design their own programs. But

perhaps that is not what you are suggesting. PCOM surveyed what students

wanted and created a curriculum to address those needs. I think that

addresses student concerns while not sacrificing expert authority. For the

masters, this whole point is moot. Students cannot possibly know what

constitutes a proper master's education in TCM

 

> In addition, you say schedule a class so the best teacher can teach it.

> How do you decide who the " best " teacher is?

 

 

by student evaluations and peer reviews and outcomes studies. do you have a

better idea.

 

 

> After a person has received a license to perform, the direction of study

> for that person should ultimately fall on the shoulders of that person.

 

no ones stopping anyone from that. but degree granting schools have a

different mission and a different responsibility to the public.

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/4/2003 5:34:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,

acudoc writes:

there in no data presented by which one can base a reasonable decision ...

i.e. " the future is bright "

The future is bright. The problem as I see it is not that the schools

are deficient in their CM courses. It is that they are deficient in marketing

courses. I know of good Physicians who lack the marketing skills to reach the

community and are slow. I know of marginal practitioners that have a thriving

practice.

The difference isn't how learned they became in school. It is in their

ability to move people into excitement about the possibility of attaining the

patients goals.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ken, I don't know the answers to your questions. I am not an ACAOM

commissioner (obviously), just an occasional site visitor. At Yo San, if a

prospective student asked for stats like attrition rates, placement rates,

etc., they would be given that information. It would be to no one's benefit

to keep that information from prospective students.

 

Julie

 

-

" kenrose2008 " <kenrose2008

 

Tuesday, November 04, 2003 1:27 AM

Re: School discussion

 

 

> Julie,

>

> I understand what you've said, but I probably don't

> grasp the significance of the whole process.

>

> I'm not sure what all the secrecy and confidentiality

> is about. Why can't the whole process be transparent?

>

> From whom must the confidential documents be

> kept confidential?

>

> And what would happen if their contents were

> generally accessible?

>

> Ken

>

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ken said:

 

> Marnae's comments shed a little additional

> light on the topic, but I'm still left scratching

> my head about how a school can be damaged

> by revelation of information concerning

> such matters as are apparent to someone

> making a site visit.

>

> And the cultural commentary contained

> in your statement that you burn the documents

> struck me as symbolic of some sort of

> primal fear associated with the business

> of Chinese medical information.

 

I never said I " burn " the documents...I said I " destroy " them. I do this,

not because I feel there is anything dangerous about them, nor to cover

anything up. I do it because the documents were lent to me in

confidentiality in order to assist me in my work as a site visitor, and when

my work is done, and my report has been submitted, the entire project is no

longer in my hands, and therefore, I shred ( or actually, not owning a

shredder, I just take apart the binders and documents and get rid of them in

my recycle container) the documents.

 

By the way, the documents do not have anything to do with " Chinese medical

information " (I quote you above), but with the school's operation,

facilities, financial statements, evaluation of faculty, etc.

>

> Marnae says that such precautions are par

> for the course in accreditation procedures.

>

> If someone does a site visit to Harvard Medical

> School, let's say, are they obliged either

> by rules or by standard practice to destroy

> their notes to ensure that they cannot fall

> into the wrong hands?

 

 

I couldn't say.

 

>

> Even the CIA leaves some records behind

> of what it develops in the way of intelligence,

> and one of the concerns for record keeping

> is that historians (or members of other

> disciplines) should be able to review processes

> such as this and their outcomes.

>

> I am not imparting motives to you, but normaly

> when we hear about destruction of documents

> images of nervous accountants at Arthur Anderson

> dealing with situations like their Enron account

> come to mind...or the like.

 

Remember that I am only destroying MY COPY of the documents that were lent

to me. The ACAOM commissioner who heads up the project most likely keeps a

copy on file, and of course the school being reviewed keeps a copy of its

entire self study documentation . You are making WAY too big a deal out of

the fact that I destroy what was given to me. I am but one small part of the

entire project of accreditation site visits.

>

> It just struck me as odd that the process is

> shrouded in such secrecy and that you

> consider it so normal.

 

Think of it this way: if you were an auditor who worked for a large CPA

firm, and you were sent to look over the books of Company A, and while there

you were given PHOTOCOPIES of their profit and loss statement. Then you did

your work, wrote your audit, submitted your report, whatever...and at the

end of all this you still had some photocopies of the Company's P & L. You

don't need it any more, the originals exist in the Company's files, and you

shred it because it is a confidential document that was lent to you by your

client.

 

Maybe the main problem you have is that the information is considered

confidential in the first place. You'd have to take that up with ACAOM. In

my mind, since it is confidential, and when I was hired, I was made to

understand that, it seems perfectly " normal " that I would destroy documents

once I am done with them.

 

Julie

>

[Guest guest]

Marnae,

 

At 10:45 AM 11/4/2003, you wrote:

>David -

>

>An accreditation self study report and the report generated by the site

>visiting team are absolutely confidential. The school may choose to

>disseminate as much information as it wishes, but site visitors and

>commissioners may not. This is standard practice in all accreditation

>commissions and is at the very core of what makes accreditation a collegial

>process.

>

>Again - unless you are willing to come forth with your source, your

>statements are inappropriate

 

Again I am repeating it from a person I consider very credible ... maybe

they spoke out of " school " ... but I will not out him / or her ... as that

person could join the discussion ... they have not up to this point maybe

... and I do not know ...they do not want to be placed in the position of

having to reveal their source.

 

Inappropriate ... maybe.... but the point is that too many people go to our

schools ... only to find out ... too late- that.... they cannot make a

viable living practicing Oriental / . What number is too

many ... 90%... 75%.... 50%.... 25% ???

 

 

I think Ken has it right--- transparency is the answer.

 

 

>Marnae

 

 

David

 

 

>At 09:25 PM 11/3/2003 -0500, you wrote:

> >Hi Marnae,

> >

> >

> >At 08:22 PM 11/3/2003, you wrote:

> > >Ken - these statistics are not published and ACAOM does not have the right

> > >to release them.

> >

> >Hmm ... does not have the right?? or just does not wish to??

> >

> > >They are figures that each school generates and they

> > >become a part of the school's self-study. This is not a public document.

> >

> >I bet!

> >

> >

> > >Marnae

> >

> >David

> >

> >

> > >At 11:12 PM 11/3/2003 +0000, you wrote:

> > > >Julie,

> > > > >

> > > > > Every accredited school has to submit annual statistics on the

> > > > percentage of

> > > > > their graduates who are practicing, full time, part time, if part

> time,

> > > > then

> > > > > by choice or not, etc. I have been on numerous accreditation site

> > > > visits and

> > > > > I have been involved in producing these statistics for the school

> > where I

> > > > > teach, and I have never seen a number like the 10% you stated.

> > > >

> > > > > Julie

> > > >

> > > >Where can one obtain these statistics?

> > > >What are the actual numbers?

> > > >

> > > >Ken

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare

> > > >practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> > > >specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

> > > >professional services, including board approved online continuing

> > education.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

At 11:34 AM -0700 11/4/03, Julie Chambers wrote:

>Maybe the main problem you have is that the information is considered

>confidential in the first place. You'd have to take that up with ACAOM. In

>my mind, since it is confidential, and when I was hired, I was made to

>understand that, it seems perfectly " normal " that I would destroy documents

>once I am done with them.

--

 

....and not to forget that site visit documents may include

information about students and employees that is legally protect

under the individual's right to privacy. To breach such

confidentiality would have legal consequences beyond ACAOM's

agreement with the school.

 

I think it would be an interesting idea for people on this list to

call their alma mater and ask for the most recent figures, and report

back to this list how the school responded.

 

Rory

--

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>

> I think it would be an interesting idea for people on this list to

> call their alma mater and ask for the most recent figures, and report

> back to this list how the school responded.

>

> Rory

 

 

Good idea, and people should be careful to distinguish between grads who

have been out one year, two years, five years, etc. so that when we report

back, we know exactly what we are talking about. Most grads could be

expected to be in at least a part-time practice after Year One, but where

are they at Year Three? If they drop out at Year Five, I don't think that is

significantly telling (in terms of David Sontag's original assertion that

the schools are misleading people) because if they really weren't making it,

they would have dropped out long before Year Five.

 

Julie

[Guest guest]

At 2:20 PM -0700 11/4/03, Julie Chambers wrote:

>Good idea, and people should be careful to distinguish between grads who

>have been out one year, two years, five years, etc. so that when we report

>back, we know exactly what we are talking about. Most grads could be

>expected to be in at least a part-time practice after Year One, but where

>are they at Year Three? If they drop out at Year Five, I don't think that is

>significantly telling (in terms of David Sontag's original assertion that

>the schools are misleading people) because if they really weren't making it,

>they would have dropped out long before Year Five.

--

 

To make it simple, just two years and five years out v. full-time,

part-time and dropped.

 

Ask for exact figures, numbers and percentages, as given to ACAOM.

 

Rory

--

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

At 04:20 PM 11/4/2003, you wrote:

> >

> > I think it would be an interesting idea for people on this list to

> > call their alma mater and ask for the most recent figures, and report

> > back to this list how the school responded.

> >

> > Rory

>

>

>Good idea, and people should be careful to distinguish between grads who

>have been out one year, two years, five years, etc. so that when we report

>back, we know exactly what we are talking about. Most grads could be

>expected to be in at least a part-time practice after Year One, but where

>are they at Year Three? If they drop out at Year Five, I don't think that is

>significantly telling

 

Why... I know people who are still " hang on " to their dream after 5 years....

 

>(in terms of David Sontag's original assertion that

>the schools are misleading people)

 

I do not quite mean that the schools are misleading .... but more like

there in no data presented by which one can base a reasonable decision ...

i.e. " the future is bright " Meaningful data is not presented ...

placement... now that must be a joke ...no?

 

>because if they really weren't making it,

>they would have dropped out long before Year Five.

 

No --- I do not agree... it is not my experience of the world around here

(Florida)

 

 

>Julie

 

David

 

 

 

 

 

>

>Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

>practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

>specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

>professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

To make it simple, just two years and five years out v. full-time,

part-time and dropped.

 

Ask for exact figures, numbers and percentages, as given to ACAOM.

>>>>I would wage that you will not get an answer

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Let look at it another way... it you look at " regular " Medical Grads that

get Licensed.... how many are not able to earn a living after say... 2 ..

or then 5 years

 

90%... 50%.... 25% < 10%

 

Anyway that is my point ... and I would bet those stats are not a " secret " .

 

My guess is you could call any Medical School and ask.... of all your grads

the get Licensed what percent are employ/ earning a living after 2 .. then

5 years and what is the average dollars number... If they do not have it I

bet they know who does...

 

David

 

At 04:36 PM 11/4/2003, you wrote:

>At 2:20 PM -0700 11/4/03, Julie Chambers wrote:

> >Good idea, and people should be careful to distinguish between grads who

> >have been out one year, two years, five years, etc. so that when we report

> >back, we know exactly what we are talking about. Most grads could be

> >expected to be in at least a part-time practice after Year One, but where

> >are they at Year Three? If they drop out at Year Five, I don't think that is

> >significantly telling (in terms of David Sontag's original assertion that

> >the schools are misleading people) because if they really weren't making it,

> >they would have dropped out long before Year Five.

>--

>

>To make it simple, just two years and five years out v. full-time,

>part-time and dropped.

>

>Ask for exact figures, numbers and percentages, as given to ACAOM.

>

>Rory

>--

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 5:45 PM -0500 11/4/03, David Sontag, DOM wrote:

>My guess is you could call any Medical School and ask.... of all your grads

>the get Licensed what percent are employ/ earning a living after 2 .. then

>5 years and what is the average dollars number... If they do not have it I

>bet they know who does...

--

 

David,

 

Why don't you call the school you went to, or even some other

schools, and report back to us their responses?

 

Rory

--

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

At 06:22 PM 11/4/2003, you wrote:

> >bet they know who does...

>

>--

>

>David,

>

>Why don't you call the school you went to, or even some other

>schools, and report back to us their responses?

>

>Rory

 

Hi Rory

 

Sure...

 

But ... they do not have the faintest idea.... the only time I ever hear

from them is when the invite me to take a CEU course.... and the only

reason they can find me is I have not moved...But I will give them a call

just for laughs.

 

Then I will call Nova South East ... a Med School in the same area...

and let see what they have to say.

 

David

[Guest guest]

At 10:48 AM 11/4/2003, you wrote:

>David - where did you go to school? Where do you live?

 

The Atlantic Institute of Oriental Medicine ... Miami, Florida

 

 

>Of my graduating class from PCOM NY I would hazard a guess that over 60%

>are in practice at least part time. Many of them teach and write and do

>other things related to the field in addition to their practice.

 

I rest my case.....How make the living from a full time practice only??

 

>I do

>think that the percent of individuals in practice has something to do with

>where they graduate from, where they live and whether or not they are

>willing to move to a more underserved area.

>

>Marnae

 

David

 

 

>At 09:43 PM 11/3/2003 -0500, you wrote:

> >At 08:32 PM 11/3/2003, you wrote:

> > >Marnae,

> > >

> > > , Marnae Ergil <marnae@p...>

> > >wrote:

> > > > Ken - these statistics are not published and ACAOM does not have the

> > right

> > > > to release them. They are figures that each school generates and they

> > > > become a part of the school's self-study. This is not a public

> document.

> > > >

> > > > Marnae

> > > >

> > > > At 11:12 PM 11/3/2003 +0000, you wrote:

> > > > >Julie,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Every accredited school has to submit annual statistics on the

> > > > > percentage of

> > > > > > their graduates who are practicing, full time, part time, if part

> > > time,

> > > > > then

> > > > > > by choice or not, etc.

> > >

> > >Thanks. Do you know why?

> > >

> > >It seems that such information would be

> > >of enormous interest to potential students.

> >

> >Yes to potential students for sure and the rest of us as well ... no?

> >

> >But, lets say for the sake of an exercise ... the number is greater the

> >10%.... would even 25% justify the time and expense of the undertaking ....

> >75% of the grads never end up practicing.

> >

> >First ... I would say 25% is way high... and it still would not justify

> >the schooling.. time and costs and all

> >

> >I was told the future is bright.... and lots of other stories... I do make

> >a living .. hard won I might add. Most of the people I went to school with

> >are no where to be found. Are more then 10% around...yes .. not a whole

> >lot more.... but unlike me many have jobs like flight attendants, RNs LMTs

> >etc... far less then 10% just make their living just from the practice of

> >Oriental Medicine.

> >

> >

> > >Ken

> >

> >

> >David

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > >

> > >Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

> > >practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> > >specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

> > >professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Julie,

 

I get it and I'm not trying to insinuate anything

about your conduct.

 

i agree with you that the oddity I seem to

be looking at is the definition of the material

as confidential. No doubt there are concerns

that I don't yet grasp that lead to this. Marnae

seemed to refer to the concept that someone

could be disadvantaged by such information

being improperly used.

 

Yet it seems to me that if the particular data

we're talking about, i.e., the " success " ratio

of graduates of a school, would be damaging

if known that traditional market mechanisms

more or less demand that it be known and

that the damage such data might wreak be

allowed to take place.

 

That is how the market engineers quality

control. But if no one knows the data, then

that mechanism is disabled.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Dear CHA listmembers, I am new to the list. I am also new to the

profession. I have read with interest the thread on the schools, and I

would like to throw my 2 cents in:

 

RE: Practice Stats for Grads.

 

From my own personal observation (after 25+ years in the business

world) I think David's figures are a bit exaggerated but quite close to

correct--maybe it's 20% and not 10%. Meaning people making a living

NET wage (I define as minimum 36K+ per year for a single person in my

area) from practice alone. I am in a major metropolitan area of the

USA.

 

When I was interviewing schools before deciding on mine, I was told by

one of the schools that only 20% of the graduates went on to actually

make a full time practice. That was 1998. Now that I have observed

the industry, I think they were correct, at least for my part of the

country. But I also think the industry is changing due to

accreditation, financial aid and increased acceptance of TCM by Western

Med. and I don't believe it's entirely a good change, (IMHO), but

that's another thread.

 

I agree that the problem is not with the TCM education part, but rather

with the Business aspects of the Education. (I also found Ethics

sorely, sorely lacking. Real life Clinical ethics education or

discussion was basically non-existent. But that's a different thread.)

I feel I am qualified to speak on the subject of business as the owner

of successful businesses in a different industry for many years.

 

I don't think TCM folks have to be the " used car salesmen " types I have

run into in various Chiropractor offices, but a bit of a realistic idea

of how business works, how to present yourself in a professional

manner, and how to actually ask for money for your services (yes, even

healing services) would have been a good thing. Our business class

covered a lot of regulatory issues and not a whole lot else, but then

again it was a very short class. Actually trying to design a marketing

plan to entice people into your “business” seemed to be almost a

shocking idea. I noticed that many of my fellow students seemed to

believe ideas like how to find a way to let the world know you were

there to provide a service for which you might ask for money was

somehow beneath them. I got the impression they thought they would

hang out their shingle, maybe put a poster at the local health food

store, and then leap out of the way in order not to be trampled by the

thundering herd of patients wonder where they had been all those years!

 

 

OTH, there's a few graduates that hit the ground running and have not

looked back. Me and my calculator think they are easily making in

excess of 100K their first fiscal year for practice alone. Good for

them, but they are not the rule, in my observation.

 

RE Confidentiality of Accreditation Info.

 

If the info about a school and students is not kept confidential there

will be no accreditation possible. If I owned schools I would be

really worried about keeping any and all internal information

confidential. A school is NOT a charity--it's a business and therefore

the internal information is valuable and could be very damaging if

leaked to the competition.

 

As a student of a school I was very worried about keeping my own

information confidential both during my tenure there and now after I

have graduated. When they called me up and asked me after I had

graduated what I was doing I refused to answer. It's NONE OF THEIR

BUSINESS! They said they needed it for accreditation and I offered to

write them a letter telling the accreditation folks the same. Now, I

do admit I am unusual. I was refusing to give out my SSN# way back in

the '70s, but that too is another thread.

 

I have no doubt you will find that W Med schools will have stats that

are more accurate and certainly more impressive than TCM schools, but

for the tuition money they charge, you can expect they have the

resources to have 3rd party research done on their grads and you can

equally bet they have entire departments—-plural—-devoted to nothing

but marketing. We don’t and I am glad of it. I don’t want to price

the entry level of TCM education out of the bounds of reasonable

people. (That is one of the reasons that Western Med is so expensive.

Where do you suppose they have to look to recoup the costs of their

education and start up expenses?)

 

I want to attract students that want to be true healers to TCM;

students whose main focus is healing patients, themselves and society;

students that want to be part of the solution rather than part of the

problem--as I aspire to be. I think most people would agree that the

profit motive run amok is a large part of what is the matter with W Med

as it is practiced today, I would like to see us take a lesson and

chart a different course. I believe we can find ways to improve the

self esteem and business skills of our healers to the point where they

can ask for and expect the income their services are worth without

becoming totally profit and number oriented and without losing the

focus on the healing aspect of this art which must also be a business.

 

Unfortunately I do not have a solution beyond suggesting more practical

business education for our graduates. But I do see this as a problem

that we will need to solve individually and collectively and quickly or

we will lose our shot at being and maintaining ourselves as a PEER of

Western Med rather than simply being co-opted into their power and

revenue stream somewhere way below MD. I have not personally reviewed

the 100K acupuncture continuing education program of Honora Wolfe and

her partner, but I have great hopes that it may be one of the ways to

address the missing information for those who have identified this as

one of the missing links for themselves. However, I still think we

need to convince students that this honorable profession can also

provide a reasonable living wage and then give them the tools to

accomplish that for themselves.

 

All IMHO, of course.

 

Christina

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Ken, I agree that schools should make their success rate known to all, and

this afternoon I posted Yo San's rate of graduates in practice. Let's see if

other people on this list who are affiliated with schools will do the same.

By the way, someone today questioned the percentage of respondents to this

kind of alumni survey. At Yo San, we get about a 50% response rate from our

alumni. And I agree that possibly only the most successful practitioners who

feel good about their education (or perhaps very bitter) may be the ones

responding. I still think the surveys are somewhat useful.

 

 

> Yet it seems to me that if the particular data

> we're talking about, i.e., the " success " ratio

> of graduates of a school, would be damaging

> if known that traditional market mechanisms

> more or less demand that it be known and

> that the damage such data might wreak be

> allowed to take place.

 

Please keep something in perspective: you are focusing on one tiny part of a

school 's entire submission to ACAOM (the " success ratio " ), and you must

remember that the totality of the confidential documents consists of

hundreds of facts, figures, assessments, recommendations, disclosures, etc.,

ALL of which are confidential until ACAOM issues its final report, and that

is public. Now, I am not going to say another word on this topic. And I know

you well enough to know you do not mean anything personal towards me, nor I

to you, but I have just had it with this conversation!

 

Julie

>

[Guest guest]

, Christina

 

> Christina,

 

FYI, Wolfe, Allen et al. will be publishing a book on practice

management accompanied by a CD-ROM which is heavy on marketing. It

should be coming out in Feb. 2004. The title of the book is Points for

Profit. Also check out the website: www.100Kacupuncture.com. (I think

that's the URL; may be: www.100Kacupuncturist.com.)

 

Bob

>

>

>

>

> Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard

> http://antispam./whatsnewfree

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/5/2003 10:54:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,

writes:

It is also really questionable whether schools are

obligated to teach their students how to run a business. I find

most people failing certainly has nothing to do with lack of

academic education, though. the best students often fail and the

C students thrive. so its not failure because they don't know

TCM. BTW, how are you doing? It took me a long time to make

decent living myself, but then I am no businessman.

Hi

 

I couldn't agree with you more. I am glad someone decided to say this.

Success or failure is going to depend on the person and their business sense.

Not the edjucation. ;-)

I do think it would be a good idea for schools to teach marketing though.

Or at least have resources available to point the grads in the direction of

a marketeer.

Trying to hold schools responsible for the success of the grads is IMHO,

silly. It isn't their responsibility. Success falls squarely on the

shoulders of the individual.

 

Best Regards,

Chris

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

David

 

, " David Sontag,

DOM " <acudoc@b...> wrote:

 

>

> I rest my case.....How make the living from a full time practice

only??

>

 

Is that really the question, though. My income from teaching and

writing is solely due to my having an acu license. Ithink a more

reasonable question is how many grads are making their money

from professional TCM related activities. that might include

product development for an herb company, for example. this is

very different from the fellow I know who is still a car valet part

time 3 years after graduation or those who continue to waitress

or do IT work. We also need to remember that some folks may

not intend to earn all their income from practice. I know people

who went to school intending to practice part time and either

raise a family or even always planned to continue part time with

some other lucrative job. Once you separate out these folks, I

think the supposed low success rate will go down quite a bit.

And those who do not succeed are hardly the fault of the

schools. It is also really questionable whether schools are

obligated to teach their students how to run a business. I find

most people failing certainly has nothing to do with lack of

academic education, though. the best students often fail and the

C students thrive. so its not failure because they don't know

TCM. BTW, how are you doing? It took me a long time to make

decent living myself, but then I am no businessman.

 

[Guest guest]

, Marnae Ergil

<marnae@p...> wrote:

-

>

> A lawsuit? Perhaps just an open request to compile this sort

of

> information - and more likely it would be addressed to the

CCAOM and not to

> ACAOM.

 

its hard to believe CCAOM would cough up this data as they

represent the vested financial interests of the member schools.

but its worth a try. I wasn't really serious about a lawsuit unless

the information is withheld despite requests. I had assumed

such data had been requested and refused already. my bad.