girdling pulse

[Guest guest]

group,

 

Not specifically an herb question, but what is a girdling pulse...?

 

-JAson

[Guest guest]

, " <

@h...> " <@h...> wrote:

> group,

>

> Not specifically an herb question, but what is a girdling pulse...?

>

> -JAson

 

just to be clear. any topic that is relevant to the practice of study of

chinese

herbology can be posted here, including those that involve diagnostics or

combination therapy (herbs with acupuncture or supplements). The frame of

reference can be pharmacological, clinical, theoretical, biomedical or TCM, as

long as it relates to herbal practice. so, for example, long threads on

acupuncture that have nothing to do with herbology are off topic, but sharing

of experiences where combination acuherb therapy was more effective are

allowed, as are posts suggesting acupuncture is more effective than

herbology for certain complaints. post freely and I will decide what is off or

on

topic. FYI, I usually reject less than a dozen posts per year (out of about

5000).

 

[Guest guest]

What is the context, reference, or Chinese term for " girdling " .

Offhand, it sounds like one of the 8-Extra pulses relating to the

Dai mai.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

, "

<@h...> " <@h...> wrote:

> group,

>

> Not specifically an herb question, but what is a girdling

pulse...?

>

> -JAson

[Guest guest]

Jason - this is a translation of 'dai', it is a belt channel pulse. See my article in AT for graphic and verbal description of the pulse. This pulse is basically more full in the guan position than the others.

 

http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2002/jan/01morris.html

 

Will

 

 

 

 

the pulse is in a (standard) tcm zang-fu internal medicine text, basically under a pulse column for a syndrome it says

"xian2 dai4 shuo4" - wiry girdling fast. Since I have never seen any other references to any 8-extra pulse in this text it is hard to say. IF you know no other girdling, can you elaborate on the 8 extra dai mai pulse. Thanx,

[Guest guest]

the pulse is in a (standard) tcm zang-fu internal medicine text, basically under

a pulse column for a syndrome it says

" xian2 dai4 shuo4 " - wiry girdling fast. Since I have never seen any other

references to any 8-extra pulse in this text it is hard to say. IF you know no

other girdling, can you elaborate on the 8 extra dai mai pulse. Thanx,

 

-JAson

 

 

 

, " James Ramholz <jramholz> "

<jramholz> wrote:

> What is the context, reference, or Chinese term for " girdling " .

> Offhand, it sounds like one of the 8-Extra pulses relating to the

> Dai mai.

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

>

> , "

> <@h...> " <@h...> wrote:

> > group,

> >

> > Not specifically an herb question, but what is a girdling

> pulse...?

> >

> > -JAson

[Guest guest]

There is also a diagram of this pulse in Miki and Chip's " Channel

Divergences " text, no?

 

 

On Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 08:15 AM, WMorris116 wrote:

 

> Jason - this is a translation of 'dai', it is a belt channel pulse.

> See my article in AT for graphic and verbal description of the pulse.

> This pulse is basically more full in the guan position than the > others.

>

> http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2002/jan/01morris.html

[Guest guest]

Jason:

 

Depending on the way the character is written, dai4 could also be an

intermittent pulse. To make sure, you can compare the two dai

characters by looking at Wiseman's E-C C-E Dictionary of Chinese

Medicine, p.438.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

, "

<@h...> " <@h...> wrote:

> the pulse is in a (standard) tcm zang-fu internal medicine text,

basically under a pulse column for a syndrome it says

> " xian2 dai4 shuo4 " - wiry girdling fast. Since I have never seen

any other references to any 8-extra pulse in this text it is hard to

say. IF you know no other girdling, can you elaborate on the 8

extra dai mai pulse. Thanx,

>

> -JAson

>

>

>

> , " James Ramholz

<jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote:

> > What is the context, reference, or Chinese term for " girdling " .

> > Offhand, it sounds like one of the 8-Extra pulses relating to

the

> > Dai mai.

> >

> > Jim Ramholz

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > , "

> > <@h...> " <@h...> wrote:

> > > group,

> > >

> > > Not specifically an herb question, but what is a girdling

> > pulse...?

> > >

> > > -JAson

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/8/2003 10:57:52 AM Pacific Standard Time, zrosenbe writes:

 

There is also a diagram of this pulse in Miki and Chip's "Channel

Divergences" text, no?

 

 

 

There is. Jeffrey Yuen talks about the Dai Mai being related to the divergent meridians - holding sublimated emotional material for someone. "Keeping it under their belt", which has really held with my patients who have presented with this pulse. Something is trying to come more to consciousness. Jeffrey Yuen has a lot of great information about the physical & emotional correlations of the 8 Extra Meridians which I use a lot in conjunction with Will's / Channel Divergences 8EM pulse info. I'm trying to look at herbal correspondences for the 8EM now. Does anyone have a source for information on that? I've found only a small amount online.

Thanks,

Anne

[Guest guest]

Ann -

 

I refer to my article one because it is immediately and freely available. And two because it is the first organized English language version. In addition, it is graphically rendered in a clear and somewhat understandable fashion. In that article I cite two sources of Ye Tian Shi's commentary on herbs for the eight extraordinary vessels. One is Yang Tiande's translation posted by Al Stone at the acupuncture.com site. The other is Bob Flaw's translation at bluepoppy.com.

 

The use of these pulse for establishing treatment herbal or acupuncturistic purposes often render powerful treatment outcomes in my experience and that of my students.

 

Will

 

Jeffrey Yuen has a lot of great information about the physical & emotional correlations of the 8 Extra Meridians which I use a lot in conjunction with Will's / Channel Divergences 8EM pulse info. I'm trying to look at herbal correspondences for the 8EM now. Does anyone have a source for information on that? I've found only a small amount online.

Thanks,

Anne

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the information, Will. I got your pulse information off of the pulse diagnosis list. It has been extraordinarily helpful (pun only partially intended) in my practice! I will look at your link to the article and the other links you suggest. It finally makes the 8EM useful in my pulse diagnosis and practice.

-Anne

[Guest guest]

Jim you are right, but I guess the characters did not come through, because the

character is definitely the one for girdling...

 

-JAson

 

 

, " James Ramholz <jramholz> "

<jramholz> wrote:

> Jason:

>

> Depending on the way the character is written, dai4 could also be an

> intermittent pulse. To make sure, you can compare the two dai

> characters by looking at Wiseman's E-C C-E Dictionary of Chinese

> Medicine, p.438.

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

>

> , "

> <@h...> " <@h...> wrote:

> > the pulse is in a (standard) tcm zang-fu internal medicine text,

> basically under a pulse column for a syndrome it says

> > " xian2 dai4 shuo4 " - wiry girdling fast. Since I have never seen

> any other references to any 8-extra pulse in this text it is hard to

> say. IF you know no other girdling, can you elaborate on the 8

> extra dai mai pulse. Thanx,

> >

> > -JAson

> >

> >

> >

> > , " James Ramholz

> <jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote:

> > > What is the context, reference, or Chinese term for " girdling " .

> > > Offhand, it sounds like one of the 8-Extra pulses relating to

> the

> > > Dai mai.

> > >

> > > Jim Ramholz

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , "

> > > <@h...> " <@h...> wrote:

> > > > group,

> > > >

> > > > Not specifically an herb question, but what is a girdling

> > > pulse...?

> > > >

> > > > -JAson

[Guest guest]

Jason -

Wang Shu-he is the earliest source I have, Li Shi Zhen aslo comments.

Will

 

Will, do you have an original source handy on this pulse or the *E in general... thanx,

 

-JAson

[Guest guest]

Jason -

 

English Language -

Blue Poppy press

Lakeside Master, Mai Jing

 

Paradigm Li Shi Zhen Pulse Diagnosis

 

There are many modern character versions available in China.

 

Will

Do you know where?

[Guest guest]

Chip Chace and Miki Shima's next book, as it turns out, will be a

translation/commentary on herbal medicine and the 8 extraordinary

vessels. I believe it will be published by Eastland Press.

 

 

On Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 10:33 PM, ajeffres wrote:

 

> . I'm trying to look at herbal correspondences for the 8EM now. Does

> anyone have a source for information on that? I've found only a small

> amount online.

> Thanks,

> Anne

[Guest guest]

Jason,

 

Dai here does not mean girdling. It is acting as a conjunction. It

means " and " or " simultaneously. "

 

Bob

 

, "

<@h...> " <@h...> wrote:

> the pulse is in a (standard) tcm zang-fu internal medicine text,

basically under a pulse column for a syndrome it says

> " xian2 dai4 shuo4 " - wiry girdling fast. Since I have never seen

any other references to any 8-extra pulse in this text it is hard to

say. IF you know no other girdling, can you elaborate on the 8 extra

dai mai pulse. Thanx,

>

> -JAson

>

>

>

> , " James Ramholz

<jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote:

> > What is the context, reference, or Chinese term for " girdling " .

> > Offhand, it sounds like one of the 8-Extra pulses relating to the

> > Dai mai.

> >

> > Jim Ramholz

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > , "

> > <@h...> " <@h...> wrote:

> > > group,

> > >

> > > Not specifically an herb question, but what is a girdling

> > pulse...?

> > >

> > > -JAson

[Guest guest]

Thank you Z'ev, Jim and Will...

 

 

Will, do you have an original source handy on this pulse or the *E in general...

thanx,

 

-JAson

 

, " James Ramholz <jramholz> "

<jramholz> wrote:

> Jason:

>

> Depending on the way the character is written, dai4 could also be an

> intermittent pulse. To make sure, you can compare the two dai

> characters by looking at Wiseman's E-C C-E Dictionary of Chinese

> Medicine, p.438.

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

>

> , "

> <@h...> " <@h...> wrote:

> > the pulse is in a (standard) tcm zang-fu internal medicine text,

> basically under a pulse column for a syndrome it says

> > " xian2 dai4 shuo4 " - wiry girdling fast. Since I have never seen

> any other references to any 8-extra pulse in this text it is hard to

> say. IF you know no other girdling, can you elaborate on the 8

> extra dai mai pulse. Thanx,

> >

> > -JAson

> >

> >

> >

> > , " James Ramholz

> <jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote:

> > > What is the context, reference, or Chinese term for " girdling " .

> > > Offhand, it sounds like one of the 8-Extra pulses relating to

> the

> > > Dai mai.

> > >

> > > Jim Ramholz

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , "

> > > <@h...> " <@h...> wrote:

> > > > group,

> > > >

> > > > Not specifically an herb question, but what is a girdling

> > > pulse...?

> > > >

> > > > -JAson

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

> Jason -

>

> Wang Shu-he is the earliest source I have, Li Shi Zhen aslo comments.

>

> Will

>

'

 

Do you know where?

 

-JAson

[Guest guest]

, " Bob Flaws <

pemachophel2001> " <pemachophel2001> wrote:

> Jason,

>

> Dai here does not mean girdling. It is acting as a conjunction. It

> means " and " or " simultaneously. "

>

> Bob

 

Is it just my impression or did the reading of a chinese character cause

confusion that could only be rectified by a correct english translation. This

underscores my contention that a little chinese can be dangerous. It also

proves Bob's point that plugging away can be very helpful. there really

appear to be as many pitfalls as insights in understanding at the early stages

of learning to read chinese. And this was just a standard TCM text Jason

refers to, nothing complex or arcane. Fact is many folks who are very guilty of

MSU actually do know some chinese. Bravo to Jason for trying to understand

this passage rather than basing treatment on erroneous speculation. It is just

as possible to make errors based upon one's reading of chinese as one's

reading of english. and arguably, when one reads at a first grade level in one

language and a college level in the other, the likelihood is that one's

comprehension will be far superior in the language they know well. While no

one can argue about the long term value of learning to read chinese, except

for a few virtuosos in the field, it will take a VERY long time to make this

skill a

truly productive one and in the meantime, there is great risk of making an

error. At least when I read a wiseman translation, I know the rendering is

accurate. In my own case, I will probably retire before I would be able to

achieve this level of skill in chinese, if ever. So the ROI for me would be

zero.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Bob,

 

Thank you for the idea, but I am not convinced that you are correct on this

one... Let us look at why I believe not:

 

a) There are numerous other times in this same text that xian and shuo are used

side by side. FYI, this text is in table format, it has a list of pulses for

each pattern, most patterns have multiple descriptions, I.e. deep wiry (chen

xian) - etc...- that is it - None of the others have any conjunctions. SO if

there are no conj. used and 'xian shuo' are used multiple times on other

patterns, why would this specific pattern decide to use a 'and' conj. The idea

of 'and' or simultaneous is surely implied in the Chinese. (xian shuo) would not

be interpreted and wiry and maybe rapid,- It is clearly wiry and rapid. (No need

for a conj)

b) dai4 is not used as a conjunction anywhere esle (so far) in the text, words

like huo4 are the authors choice.

c) I don't even see the idea of dai4 being used as a conj. in my dictionaries.

IS it in yours? or is this an experiential observation? But even so It does not

make sense here...??...

 

Am I missing something?

 

-

 

, " Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001> "

<pemachophel2001> wrote:

> Jason,

>

> Dai here does not mean girdling. It is acting as a conjunction. It

> means " and " or " simultaneously. "

>

> Bob

>

> , "

> <@h...> " <@h...> wrote:

> > the pulse is in a (standard) tcm zang-fu internal medicine text,

> basically under a pulse column for a syndrome it says

> > " xian2 dai4 shuo4 " - wiry girdling fast. Since I have never seen

> any other references to any 8-extra pulse in this text it is hard to

> say. IF you know no other girdling, can you elaborate on the 8 extra

> dai mai pulse. Thanx,

> >

> > -JAson

> >

> >

> >

> > , " James Ramholz

> <jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote:

> > > What is the context, reference, or Chinese term for " girdling " .

> > > Offhand, it sounds like one of the 8-Extra pulses relating to the

> > > Dai mai.

> > >

> > > Jim Ramholz

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , "

> > > <@h...> " <@h...> wrote:

> > > > group,

> > > >

> > > > Not specifically an herb question, but what is a girdling

> > > pulse...?

> > > >

> > > > -JAson

[Guest guest]

Jason,

 

I can tell you from reading lots and lots of Chinese pulse books that

the character dai is often used as a conjunction in this way. However,

to settle the question, you need to ask a native-speaking Chinese

doctor how they read it. I believe some of us are spinning our wheels

here.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

 

 

>

> Is it just my impression or did the reading of a chinese character

cause

> confusion that could only be rectified by a correct english

translation.

 

You're right. It is just your impression.

It is also your ongoing assertion.

Take a look at the logic of what you're

saying here. You seem to be suggesting

that the only way to understand Chinese

is to translate it into English.

 

If this were true, how could the Chinese

understand anything? Only by translating

it into English?

 

This is obviously absurd.

 

Were we to follow such logic, then ignorance

of Chinese medical language would be considered

as the sine qua non of understanding Chinese

medical concepts?

 

 

This

> underscores my contention that a little chinese can be dangerous.

 

As can be a little Chinese medicine.

 

It is not the reading of a Chinese character

that is causing confusion here. It is the

mis-reading of a Chinese character and the

general lack of familiarity with the meanings

of Chinese characters which is manifesting,

once again, as confusion about the meaning

of Chinese medical terms and ideas.

 

The solution is not to institutionalize

ignorance. The solution is to democratize

knowledge.

 

Yes. It takes a VERY LONG TIME to learn

Chinese medical language.

 

As IT TAKES A VERY LONG TIME TO LEARN

CHINESE MEDICINE.

 

The long standing mistaken idea in the

United States of America and elsewhere

in the world is that it is all somehow

quick and easy.

 

It's not.

 

And the sooner people wake up to this

reality, the better off they are.

 

 

 

 

 

It also

> proves Bob's point that plugging away can be very helpful. there

really

> appear to be as many pitfalls as insights in understanding at the

early stages

> of learning to read chinese.

 

Of course there are. There are pitfalls

and insights in the early, middle, and

late stages of learning...well...anything.

 

And this was just a standard TCM text Jason

> refers to, nothing complex or arcane.

 

Fact is many folks who are very guilty of

> MSU actually do know some chinese. Bravo to Jason for trying to

understand

> this passage rather than basing treatment on erroneous

speculation. It is just

> as possible to make errors based upon one's reading of chinese as

one's

> reading of english.

 

Making errors is a necessity in learning.

Bravo to Jason indeed for his effort,

for his error, for his communication

about it. And bravo to you for yours.

 

The fact that we make errors while we

learn is a very healthy sign.

 

and arguably, when one reads at a first grade level in one

> language and a college level in the other, the likelihood is that

one's

> comprehension will be far superior in the language they know well.

 

Yes, obviously. But this self-evident statement

hardly supports either your impression or your

assertion that not knowing the Chinese words

represents a better return on investment of

one's time and attention than knowing them.

 

While no

> one can argue about the long term value of learning to read

chinese,

 

I am really confused. Are you not doing precisely

this by stating that the return on investment for

you in learning to read Chinese is zero? If no

one can aruge about it, why are you?

 

I'm not trying to be coy or facetious. I really

don't understand the point you constantly make

about it being of zero value to study Chinese medical

language.

 

except

> for a few virtuosos in the field, it will take a VERY long time to

make this skill a

> truly productive one and in the meantime, there is great risk of

making an

> error.

 

And after a very long time, it will be

a very long time later. But will we have

learned anything? That does not depend

on how much time passes but on what we

do during that time.

 

 

And who are the virtuosos in the field who argue

against the value of learning Chinese? Virtually

all of the virtuosos in the field have or claim

to have proficiency in Chinese. Is there anyone

out there who promotes him or herself by saying

" I don't know the first thing about Chinese

medical language, but I am an expert in Chinese

medicine. " ?

 

Wouldn't that be an odd claim to make?

 

Even Alon, who argues as you do about the

ROI and time and so on says that he studied

the language for a couple of years (if I

remember correctly what he said) before

he gave it up as being a poor use of his

time.

 

So who are the virtuosos who argue about it?

 

At least when I read a wiseman translation, I know the rendering is

> accurate.

 

How?

 

Nigel makes mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes.

It is not possible to study Chinese without

making mistakes. We are all engaged in a large scale

study of Chinese medicine. And we are making lots

and lots of mistakes. We shall no doubt go on

making lots and lots of mistakes.

 

The Chinese medical literature itself is studded

with records of mistakes that have been made

since time immemorial.

 

The MISTAKE is to elevate our mistakes to the

level of laws, regulations, standards, graduation

and certification requirements, and so

on. And that is a grave mistake.

 

In my own case, I will probably retire before I would be able to

> achieve this level of skill in chinese, if ever. So the ROI for

me would be zero.

 

By couching your comments in personal terms

you do not minimize their potential influence

on those who read them. You are a highly

intelligent individual. You are a teacher

of the subject. You are the director of

this list. If the ROI for you would be zero,

then why would it be any different for anyone

else?

 

 

 

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Ken:

 

All this theory aside, you didn't comment whether you can you

confirm or deny that Dai4 here does not mean girdling. It is acting

as a conjunction. It means " and " or " simultaneously. "

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " dragon90405

<yulong@m...> " <yulong@m...> wrote:

>

>

> >

> > Is it just my impression or did the reading of a chinese

character

> cause

> > confusion that could only be rectified by a correct english

> translation.

>

> You're right. It is just your impression.

> It is also your ongoing assertion.

> Take a look at the logic of what you're

> saying here. You seem to be suggesting

> that the only way to understand Chinese

> is to translate it into English.

>

> If this were true, how could the Chinese

> understand anything? Only by translating

> it into English?

>

> This is obviously absurd.

>

> Were we to follow such logic, then ignorance

> of Chinese medical language would be considered

> as the sine qua non of understanding Chinese

> medical concepts?

>

>

> This

> > underscores my contention that a little chinese can be dangerous.

>

> As can be a little Chinese medicine.

>

> It is not the reading of a Chinese character

> that is causing confusion here. It is the

> mis-reading of a Chinese character and the

> general lack of familiarity with the meanings

> of Chinese characters which is manifesting,

> once again, as confusion about the meaning

> of Chinese medical terms and ideas.

>

> The solution is not to institutionalize

> ignorance. The solution is to democratize

> knowledge.

>

> Yes. It takes a VERY LONG TIME to learn

> Chinese medical language.

>

> As IT TAKES A VERY LONG TIME TO LEARN

> CHINESE MEDICINE.

>

> The long standing mistaken idea in the

> United States of America and elsewhere

> in the world is that it is all somehow

> quick and easy.

>

> It's not.

>

> And the sooner people wake up to this

> reality, the better off they are.

>

>

>

>

>

> It also

> > proves Bob's point that plugging away can be very helpful.

there

> really

> > appear to be as many pitfalls as insights in understanding at

the

> early stages

> > of learning to read chinese.

>

> Of course there are. There are pitfalls

> and insights in the early, middle, and

> late stages of learning...well...anything.

>

> And this was just a standard TCM text Jason

> > refers to, nothing complex or arcane.

>

> Fact is many folks who are very guilty of

> > MSU actually do know some chinese. Bravo to Jason for trying to

> understand

> > this passage rather than basing treatment on erroneous

> speculation. It is just

> > as possible to make errors based upon one's reading of chinese

as

> one's

> > reading of english.

>

> Making errors is a necessity in learning.

> Bravo to Jason indeed for his effort,

> for his error, for his communication

> about it. And bravo to you for yours.

>

> The fact that we make errors while we

> learn is a very healthy sign.

>

> and arguably, when one reads at a first grade level in one

> > language and a college level in the other, the likelihood is

that

> one's

> > comprehension will be far superior in the language they know

well.

>

> Yes, obviously. But this self-evident statement

> hardly supports either your impression or your

> assertion that not knowing the Chinese words

> represents a better return on investment of

> one's time and attention than knowing them.

>

> While no

> > one can argue about the long term value of learning to read

> chinese,

>

> I am really confused. Are you not doing precisely

> this by stating that the return on investment for

> you in learning to read Chinese is zero? If no

> one can aruge about it, why are you?

>

> I'm not trying to be coy or facetious. I really

> don't understand the point you constantly make

> about it being of zero value to study Chinese medical

> language.

>

> except

> > for a few virtuosos in the field, it will take a VERY long time

to

> make this skill a

> > truly productive one and in the meantime, there is great risk of

> making an

> > error.

>

> And after a very long time, it will be

> a very long time later. But will we have

> learned anything? That does not depend

> on how much time passes but on what we

> do during that time.

>

>

> And who are the virtuosos in the field who argue

> against the value of learning Chinese? Virtually

> all of the virtuosos in the field have or claim

> to have proficiency in Chinese. Is there anyone

> out there who promotes him or herself by saying

> " I don't know the first thing about Chinese

> medical language, but I am an expert in Chinese

> medicine. " ?

>

> Wouldn't that be an odd claim to make?

>

> Even Alon, who argues as you do about the

> ROI and time and so on says that he studied

> the language for a couple of years (if I

> remember correctly what he said) before

> he gave it up as being a poor use of his

> time.

>

> So who are the virtuosos who argue about it?

>

> At least when I read a wiseman translation, I know the rendering

is

> > accurate.

>

> How?

>

> Nigel makes mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes.

> It is not possible to study Chinese without

> making mistakes. We are all engaged in a large scale

> study of Chinese medicine. And we are making lots

> and lots of mistakes. We shall no doubt go on

> making lots and lots of mistakes.

>

> The Chinese medical literature itself is studded

> with records of mistakes that have been made

> since time immemorial.

>

> The MISTAKE is to elevate our mistakes to the

> level of laws, regulations, standards, graduation

> and certification requirements, and so

> on. And that is a grave mistake.

>

> In my own case, I will probably retire before I would be able to

> > achieve this level of skill in chinese, if ever. So the ROI for

> me would be zero.

>

> By couching your comments in personal terms

> you do not minimize their potential influence

> on those who read them. You are a highly

> intelligent individual. You are a teacher

> of the subject. You are the director of

> this list. If the ROI for you would be zero,

> then why would it be any different for anyone

> else?

>

>

>

>

> Ken

[Guest guest]

Jim,

>

> All this theory aside, you didn't comment whether you can you

> confirm or deny that Dai4 here does not mean girdling. It is

acting

> as a conjunction. It means " and " or " simultaneously. "

 

Here is the definition of dai4 from

Han4 Zi4 Xing2 Yi4 Fen1 Xi1 Zi4 Dian3:

(Analysis of the Form and Meaning of Chinese Character)

Published by Beijing University Publishing House

1999, Beijing

 

" 1. girdle or things resembling a girdle, belt

2. area, i.e., a geographical region

3. to bring, carry, etc.

4. to lead, to guide, as a teacher guides a student

 

to analyze the character, from Shuo1 Wen2 Jie3 Zi4,

 

things that resemble a girdle, as a girdle must contain cloth,

thus it (dai4) follows cloth (jin1) as its radical.

 

The word's meaning extends to include anything that resembles a belt

or girdle.

 

It also means something that you carry on your waist.

 

It also means to tie or wrap around and from this meaning it also

extends to mean connect. "

 

In order to comment on the meaning of the

word in the passage that Jason originally

cited, I'd have to see the Chinese passage.

 

Jason, can you post the Chinese? If it was

posted earlier, I didn't see it.

 

Just to clarify, I wouldn't characterize

what I said in my earlier post as theory.

You can certainly set it aside, ignore it

or whatever. But it isn't a theory.

 

The highly speculative theory that we are

discussing in round about ways is the

theory that people can study and practice

Chinese medicine without understanding

the meanings of Chinese medical terms.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Eight extra ordinary pulses (are the "only" 8 pulses that reflects the 8 extraordinary vessels?)- Jim, Will

 

 

Marco -

 

No, the Eight extra ordinary pulses of Wang Shu-he are not the only ones. I understand Richard Tan teaches a different form of these. However, I have found Wang's version particularly reliable over the years for me and my students.

There are exceptions to the interpretation of the pulse as one of Wang's patterns ie: (1) The yang qiao pulse that is full in the distal positions may be related to yin fire. (2) On the left wrist, the yang qiao pulse could be a small intestine-urinary bladder entry-exit block. (3) If one examines the right wrist for the postnatal creation of qi, blood and essence, the weaker proximal position suggests insufficient contribution of yuan qi to the generation of ying qi and wei qi.

Will

[Guest guest]

Dear Ken and Jason and list:-)

 

 

I would like to see either a list or this list do more what Jason did.

 

Namely asked a highly open question.

 

Open because presumably one has to see the Chinese characters and context.

 

Although it is presumably a modern text book less I am mistaking the Chinese language has evolved as a highly "open" language, saying maximum with minimum words. Since apparently the Chinese language makes a different connotation associated with the words theory (and experience) Knowing practice - Judith Fariquh. Of hand something like "theory" is the realised potential.

 

Surprisingly practical and pragmatically, for a cosmovision and culture and hence medical paradigm(s) that nearly always get laboured as "lofty-philosophical" implying non practical? Anyway that is an another unjust idea associated with Chinese medicine...

 

Thus when Jason asked the question in which he has not claimed a definitive answer and hence is not mistaking or wrong per say (I am not Jason's lawyer ok:-).

 

However I say this because sincerely the question has lead (potentially) to many aspects of Chinese medicine:

 

Eight extra ordinary pulses (are the "only" 8 pulses that reflects the 8 extraordinary vessels?)- Jim, Will

Syntax-Gramma of Chinese language- Bob Ken

Reference to good sources People and materials - Ken and Bob

 

Now what would be interesting is:

 

If Bob Flaws approach is more relevant then how does the passage read in content and context?

If Will and Jims approach is more relevant how does it change it?

 

I am speculating but since it is a modern TCM book Bob approach is probably more relevant, however the mere fact that 8 extra vessels and pulse classics came up is in part aiding to realise potential of Chinese medicine (i.e. theory is highly practical). What is more is that now yet other books the pulse classics are on my hit list.

 

I certainly feel that Kens endower with studying Chinese medicine from the well has and is "paying" of as is Jason's and Bob's.

 

(If I could have two wife's I certainly would look for Chinese female doctor of Chinese medicine, not to understate the importance of going to the source:-)

 

 

I have also come to realise via Jim and Will that the pulses would be folly to neglect, as indeed any aspect of Chinese medicine potentially is and nor does one thing exclude the other.

 

The question is how to manage once studies, which really is a synonym for practice and vice versa in my opinion.

 

Not to make a long letter and stating my sadness from being in a place where people believe "Chinese medicine" is done in three months ????

 

I hope that more questions about how to intepritate certain readings in terms of space time and context will be asked...

 

I am unfortunately not yet at such a level to ask good questions (maybe lucky for the list;-)

Hence thanks a lot to Jason...

 

 

 

 

Needless to say Wiseman and Feng works are gems... but the translations by Wiseman and Feng have there fair criticisms, both in approach and choices of terms.

 

Marco

 

 

Ps. Ken I will of coarse get the Qi book once I can, referring to body and Chinese medicine thread...