Guest guest Report post Posted January 10, 2003 Thus when Jason asked the question in which he has not claimed a definitive answer and hence is not mistaking or wrong per say (I am not Jason's lawyer ok:-). [Jason] THis is true, and to address Todd's concern. He is right, there can easily be confusion and errors made from 1 character. and as KEn states this can easily happen at any level, and as I say even if one is Chinese. But IMO, this is no ways proves that reading Chinese, even at my limited level, is useless. I think the key here is that when one reads/ translates, one has to be aware of one's limitations. In regard to the dai4- I knew something was not right, so I have been pursing an answer instead of assuming I know something that I don't. So marco is right, I have not made any error YET.. - and Because I hopefully am in touch with my limitations, I only work on books / passages that I can handle. And when I get too deep, I am very aware of that and do not start MSUing... It is quite easy when one is unsure of what one is doing and when one starts guessing. But Todd is right; this still makes no guarantee of accuracy. But This is all 'checked' with my mentor Chip. So there will always be errors, this is part of the game... I don't think it has to do with one's reading level, it has to do with one's reality checks. As you can see in the chart I posted (previous msg) , I follow what most do when they are unsure, I leave in the characters, this ensures a further reader the possibility of double checking it, and then understanding that the author has a question. (this would also be foot-noted.) But as Todd points out, it is just as easy to read a western translation and make an error in interpretation... This happens all the time... 2 people can easily read a theoretical idea (in English) and come away with 2 ideas) - But if I were to put money on where the most MSU came from in Western TCM world, I would say it is from non-Chinese reading people, sorry if this is offensive, and is not directed at people on this list, it is just based on my experience. (or perceived experience)... I had some wacky teachers (not on this list) - So finally, I know that at my level, I do not know the intricacies, For example, like Bob, Dan, or CHip (etc) but I do know I can read basic passages which gives me access to much material - This level is attainable by anyone - I may miss a word here or there, but I can read internal medicine books, case studies etc. and get what they are saying, and in instances where I am unsure, I can check with others, This is how it works. This level is accessible and valuable. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 10, 2003 The concern with reading medical Chinese up until this point has been largely an individual effort, which limits the number of people who have access to learning the language. Of course, more mistakes will be made unless we share our translations, trials and tribulations. This situation will be the norm until medical Chinese is offered in our CM educational system at all of the schools. In the meantime, no one should be discouraged from studying medical Chinese. Even if one makes mistakes, one's comprehension increases exponentially as one continues to learn. On Friday, January 10, 2003, at 09:13 AM, < wrote: > [Jason] THis is true, and to address Todd's concern. He is right, > there can easily be confusion and errors made from 1 character. and as > KEn states this can easily happen at any level, and as I say even if > one is Chinese. But IMO, this is no ways proves that reading Chinese, > even at my limited level, is useless. I think the key here is that > when one reads/ translates, one has to be aware of one's limitations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 10, 2003 Z'ev: Like you, I hope more people will invest the time to learn how to translate more CM texts. And you're right, mistakes in translation are always a risk and probably unavoidable. This is less of an issue with modern texts since they are so redundent: diseases are reduced to the same basic patterns and the number of herbal formulas used are fairly limited. This sort of modern simplicity implies insight, but at the risk of elimninating important details. I think translation becomes a more serious and larger issue when examining older material. Translation alone is no guarentee of meaning and the ability to apply those ideas clinically. Take, for example, Suwen Chapter 20. Although it has been translated a number of times, I've never heard from its translators how they think those ideas can be applied clinically. Perhaps Unschuld will have commentaries in his translation that will illuminate the text. Other than my teacher, I have never heard anyone offer their thoughts or apply it clinically. Who and where are the living clinical experts for these materials? If they are around and don't write, perhaps their students can offer their insights second-hand. Jim Ramholz , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > The concern with reading medical Chinese up until this point has been largely an individual effort, which limits the number of people who have access to learning the language. Of course, more mistakes will be made unless we share our translations, trials and tribulations. > > This situation will be the norm until medical Chinese is offered in our CM educational system at all of the schools. In the meantime, no one should be discouraged from studying medical Chinese. Even if one makes mistakes, one's comprehension increases exponentially as one continues to learn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 10, 2003 It is interesting that you make this point, Jim. My focus has actually switched to studying more classical Chinese (based on books recommended to me by Chip Chace). I find it easier to understand the classical sentence structure and overall format. There are fewer compounds and the sentences are shorter. Even though the characters are more complex, mainland China has published several classics with simplified characters. It goes without saying that modern Chinese language textbooks with their lists of patterns and prescriptions will be an easier learning proposition for those beginning to learn Chinese. On Friday, January 10, 2003, at 01:08 PM, James Ramholz <jramholz wrote: > Like you, I hope more people will invest the time to learn how to > translate more CM texts. And you're right, mistakes in translation > are always a risk and probably unavoidable. This is less of an issue > with modern texts since they are so redundent: diseases are reduced > to the same basic patterns and the number of herbal formulas used > are fairly limited. This sort of modern simplicity implies insight, > but at the risk of elimninating important details. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 10, 2003 There is an interesting chapter in Elisabeth Hsu's " The Transmission of " about her Nei Jing teacher, Dr. Zhang, and how he taught the subject in a very interpretive fashion. I must have at least eight different English translations of the Nei Jing Su Wen (and two Chinese versions), and I cannot believe how different one is from the next, and how inaccurate some of those translations seem to me. I very much look forward to the Unschuld version, which should have the tools to put translation to good use. On Friday, January 10, 2003, at 01:08 PM, James Ramholz <jramholz wrote: > I think translation becomes a more serious and larger issue when > examining older material. Translation alone is no guarentee of > meaning and the ability to apply those ideas clinically. Take, for > example, Suwen Chapter 20. Although it has been translated a number > of times, I've never heard from its translators how they think those > ideas can be applied clinically. Perhaps Unschuld will have > commentaries in his translation that will illuminate the text. Other > than my teacher, I have never heard anyone offer their thoughts or > apply it clinically. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 10, 2003 In The Pinyin Chinese-English Dictionary, the 7th menaing of dai4 is " having something attached; simultaneous. " Bob , " dragon90405 <yulong@m...> " <yulong@m...> wrote: > Jim, > > > > All this theory aside, you didn't comment whether you can you > > confirm or deny that Dai4 here does not mean girdling. It is > acting > > as a conjunction. It means " and " or " simultaneously. " > > Here is the definition of dai4 from > Han4 Zi4 Xing2 Yi4 Fen1 Xi1 Zi4 Dian3: > (Analysis of the Form and Meaning of Chinese Character) > Published by Beijing University Publishing House > 1999, Beijing > > " 1. girdle or things resembling a girdle, belt > 2. area, i.e., a geographical region > 3. to bring, carry, etc. > 4. to lead, to guide, as a teacher guides a student > > to analyze the character, from Shuo1 Wen2 Jie3 Zi4, > > things that resemble a girdle, as a girdle must contain cloth, > thus it (dai4) follows cloth (jin1) as its radical. > > The word's meaning extends to include anything that resembles a belt > or girdle. > > It also means something that you carry on your waist. > > It also means to tie or wrap around and from this meaning it also > extends to mean connect. " > > In order to comment on the meaning of the > word in the passage that Jason originally > cited, I'd have to see the Chinese passage. > > Jason, can you post the Chinese? If it was > posted earlier, I didn't see it. > > Just to clarify, I wouldn't characterize > what I said in my earlier post as theory. > You can certainly set it aside, ignore it > or whatever. But it isn't a theory. > > The highly speculative theory that we are > discussing in round about ways is the > theory that people can study and practice > Chinese medicine without understanding > the meanings of Chinese medical terms. > > Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 10, 2003 What I hope, Ken, is that we can get beyond the issue of being for or against learning medical Chinese to a cooperative, sharing environment online by sharing our experiences with Chinese, as Jason has done. Individuals on this list and in the profession will make their choices where they stand with learning medical Chinese or not, but, as always, 'a journey of 1000 miles begins with the first step'. One can be greatly enriched by understanding even one character, such as qi4, as discussed in your book. >> The highly speculative theory that we are >> discussing in round about ways is the >> theory that people can study and practice >> Chinese medicine without understanding >> the meanings of Chinese medical terms. >> >> Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 11, 2003 Z'ev, I hope so, too, Z'ev. And in the spirit of a cooperative, sharing environment, here is a response to the characters that Jason posted. Without the context and the whole passage, it's not possible to offer a comprehensive interpretation. But Bob's reading of dai4 as a conjunction could very well be accurate. So that the three characters could mean something like " wiry along with rapid " or " wiry and rapid. " If Jason can post the whole passage, then perhaps we can come up with a more complete, if not definitive interpretation. Ken , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > What I hope, Ken, is that we can get beyond the issue of being for or > against learning medical Chinese to a cooperative, sharing environment > online by sharing our experiences with Chinese, as Jason has done. > Individuals on this list and in the profession will make their choices > where they stand with learning medical Chinese or not, but, as always, > 'a journey of 1000 miles begins with the first step'. > > One can be greatly enriched by understanding even one character, such > as qi4, as discussed in your book. > > > > >> The highly speculative theory that we are > >> discussing in round about ways is the > >> theory that people can study and practice > >> Chinese medicine without understanding > >> the meanings of Chinese medical terms. > >> > >> Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 11, 2003 Ken, Did you see my previous post... There is no passage. Just three characters. Look back a few messages and see the chart context. The question is why would the author suddenly put a dai4 in the middle of xian & shuo when he doesn't elsewhere. What extra meaning would this give to the xian shuo? when xian shuo already means wiry & rapid. -Jason , " dragon90405 <yulong@m...> " <yulong@m...> wrote: > Z'ev, > > I hope so, too, Z'ev. > > And in the spirit of a cooperative, sharing > environment, here is a response to the characters > that Jason posted. > > Without the context and the whole passage, > it's not possible to offer a comprehensive > interpretation. > > But Bob's reading of dai4 as a conjunction could > very well be accurate. So that the three characters > could mean something like " wiry along with rapid " > or " wiry and rapid. " > > If Jason can post the whole passage, > then perhaps we can come up with a > more complete, if not definitive > interpretation. > > Ken > > > > , " " > <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > What I hope, Ken, is that we can get beyond the issue of being for > or > > against learning medical Chinese to a cooperative, sharing > environment > > online by sharing our experiences with Chinese, as Jason has > done. > > Individuals on this list and in the profession will make their > choices > > where they stand with learning medical Chinese or not, but, as > always, > > 'a journey of 1000 miles begins with the first step'. > > > > One can be greatly enriched by understanding even one character, > such > > as qi4, as discussed in your book. > > > > > > > > >> The highly speculative theory that we are > > >> discussing in round about ways is the > > >> theory that people can study and practice > > >> Chinese medicine without understanding > > >> the meanings of Chinese medical terms. > > >> > > >> Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 11, 2003 Jason: In this case, it looks to be that the pulses are generally wiry and rapid, but with an inflated quality or girdling in the middle jiao due to the phlegm heat; hence the dia4. Jim Ramholz , " wrote: The question is why would the author suddenly put a dai4 in the middle of xian & shuo when he doesn't elsewhere. What extra meaning would this give to the xian shuo? when xian shuo already means wiry & rapid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 11, 2003 Jim, Yes, this makes more since, at this point, then a mere conjuction... -Jason , " James Ramholz <jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote: > Jason: > > In this case, it looks to be that the pulses are generally wiry and > rapid, but with an inflated quality or girdling in the middle jiao > due to the phlegm heat; hence the dia4. > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > , " wrote: > The question is why would the author suddenly put a dai4 in the > middle of xian & shuo when he doesn't elsewhere. What extra meaning > would this give to the xian shuo? when xian shuo already means wiry > & rapid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 11, 2003 Jim, Jason, I get it now that there is nothing more than these three characters to refer to in interpreting their meaning. I just quickly reviewed several of the posts in this thread, and it's not at all clear to me where the reading of dai4 as a description of a quality of the pulse comes from. Bob Flaws' pointed out several days ago that the correct reading of the three characters is wiry and rapid. I agree. Where does the notion that dai4 is a pulse quality comes from? It seems highly unlikely that the in the limited context that is available dai4 refers to the dai4 channel. Jason raised the question of why the author wrote what he/she wrote. Who is the author? What is the title of the book? Ken , " <@h...> " <@h...> wrote: > Jim, > > Yes, this makes more since, at this point, then a mere conjuction... > > > -Jason > > , " James Ramholz <jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote: > > Jason: > > > > In this case, it looks to be that the pulses are generally wiry and > > rapid, but with an inflated quality or girdling in the middle jiao > > due to the phlegm heat; hence the dia4. > > > > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > > > > , " wrote: > > The question is why would the author suddenly put a dai4 in the > > middle of xian & shuo when he doesn't elsewhere. What extra meaning > > would this give to the xian shuo? when xian shuo already means wiry > > & rapid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 11, 2003 Ken: If you consider that dai is a conjunction in this passage, two problems immediately arise. Per Jason, Dai is not used elsewhere as a conjunction in the text and would be out of place used as one here. The second and real problem is that if dai is used as a conjunction, the passage does not adequately describe the quality of qi depression with phlegm-heat. This pulse finding in clinical practice is not at all unusal for this pattern. Dai4 is also an abbreviation for Girdling Vessel (Wiseman) and, in this context, the pulse associated with that Eight Extraordinary Vessel. The placement of the character in the middle is actually a visual pun---even if unintentional. References for the dai pulse can be found in th work of Li Shi-zhen (in both Huynh and Flaws editions), Wang shu-he, Jiang Jing, Miki Shima, Will Morris, and my own work. Consistant in all versions, there is an excess in the middle jiao with comparatively weak proximal and distal. Just as there would be if the pulse was fast and wiry showing phlegm-heat in the middle jiao. Jim Ramholz , " dragon90405 <yulong@m...> " <yulong@m...> wrote: > Jim, Jason, > > I get it now that there is nothing > more than these three characters to > refer to in interpreting their meaning. > > I just quickly reviewed several of the > posts in this thread, and it's not at > all clear to me where the reading of > dai4 as a description of a quality of > the pulse comes from. > > Bob Flaws' pointed out several days ago > that the correct reading of the three > characters is wiry and rapid. I agree. > > Where does the notion that dai4 is > a pulse quality comes from? > > It seems highly unlikely that the > in the limited context that is available > dai4 refers to the dai4 channel. > > Jason raised the question of why the > author wrote what he/she wrote. > > Who is the author? What is the title of > the book? > > Ken > > , " > <@h...> " <@h...> wrote: > > Jim, > > > > Yes, this makes more since, at this point, then a mere > conjuction... > > > > > > -Jason > > > > , " James Ramholz > <jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote: > > > Jason: > > > > > > In this case, it looks to be that the pulses are generally wiry > and > > > rapid, but with an inflated quality or girdling in the middle > jiao > > > due to the phlegm heat; hence the dia4. > > > > > > > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > > > > > > > > , " wrote: > > > The question is why would the author suddenly put a dai4 in the > > > middle of xian & shuo when he doesn't elsewhere. What extra > meaning > > > would this give to the xian shuo? when xian shuo already means > wiry > > > & rapid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 12, 2003 Jim, This is getting a little complicated, as you're asking me to explain my own and others (including yours) speculations about what some writer may have meant by writing three Chinese words that we are considering more or less out of context. But I'll try to answer the questions you raise. > If you consider that dai is a conjunction in this passage, two > problems immediately arise. Per Jason, Dai is not used elsewhere as > a conjunction in the text and would be out of place used as one > here. As I understand Jason's description of this book, it's in English with a few Chinese phrases such as the one in question. I don't think it's germane to make assumptions about the implied meaning of the Chinese based on this little bit. The second and real problem is that if dai is used as a > conjunction, the passage does not adequately describe the quality of > qi depression with phlegm-heat. This pulse finding in clinical > practice is not at all unusal for this pattern. I agree that the problem lies in this vicinity, but as I see it, you're working somewhat backwards, i.e., trying to project onto the Chinese words some insight that you've deduced from your experience or from other sources. So I think in order to understand the meaning of the Chinese words, one thing that we should do is to distinguish between these two aspects, i.e., what the Chinese words say and this other layer of significance. > > Dai4 is also an abbreviation for Girdling Vessel (Wiseman) and, in > this context, the pulse associated with that Eight Extraordinary > Vessel. But is it a description of a characteristic of the pulse or a description of the pulse associated with the dai4 vessel? In other words, is there a " dai4 " pulse, by which we should understand a particular quality of the pulse in the same sense that a wiry or rapid pulse is a quality of the pulse? Or is it the pulse of the dai4 vessel, in a sense similar to the pulse of the other vessels or associated organs? Reading the phrase in question to mean something about the dai4 vessel constitutes a fairly substantial distortion of the Chinese syntax and grammar, if the reading that Bob has suggested and which I agree with is, indeed, accurate. One thing that's not clear from the information provided so far is whether or not the phrase is to be understood as modern Chinese or as classical Chinese. The use of dai4 in this more or less conjuctive sense is largely a modern usage. Again, without knowing a little more about the text itself, the author, the use of Chinese in the book, etc. it's extremely difficult to draw conclusions as to what is actually intended. The placement of the character in the middle is actually a > visual pun---even if unintentional. References for the dai pulse can > be found in th work of Li Shi-zhen (in both Huynh and Flaws > editions), Wang shu-he, Jiang Jing, Miki Shima, Will Morris, and my > own work. Consistant in all versions, there is an excess in the > middle jiao with comparatively weak proximal and distal. Just as > there would be if the pulse was fast and wiry showing phlegm-heat in > the middle jiao. I'm not necessarily arguing against the accuracy or validity of your observation of a possible clinical phenomenon. I just think that as Bob Flaws pointed out, the likeliest interpretation of the phrase is simply " wiry and rapid " . I don't think that reading it this way in any way negates the possibility of understanding a given clinical picture in the way that you are suggesting it can or should be understood. It's simply a distinction between what is written into and implied by the phrase in question and additional information that you or any other practitioner might bring to understanding it. It dawns on me that trying to discuss this at this length may well be adding to rather than diminishing the confusions. If we could simply sit together and look at the book in question, I think the issue could be more quickly and easily resolved. Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 12, 2003 Ken: I don't think it is a complicated issue at all. Keep in mind these are very simplified pulse descriptions---a list in a table. Typical of TCM, the author doesn't distinguish depth or positions of pulse qualities. If you look at the chart in posting 14470 you will see dai is not used for a conjunction in the previous " wiry rapid " and " slippery wiry " ---nor elsewhere in the book, according to Jason. To use dai as a conjunction takes the phrase out of context by leaving " phlegm " untranslated. The pulse for qi depression with phelegm-heat is wrong if considered only wiry and fast. Where's the phlegm---the most important symptom in this pattern? Dai as a pulse description solves all of these issues. And makes sense clinically--- the ultimate test of translation. > In other words, is there a " dai4 " pulse, by which > we should understand a particular quality > of the pulse in the same sense that a > wiry or rapid pulse is a quality of > the pulse? Yes. It one of the pulses associated with the Eight Extraordinary Vessels. > Reading the phrase in question to mean > something about the dai4 vessel constitutes > a fairly substantial distortion of the > Chinese syntax and grammar, if the > reading that Bob has suggested and > which I agree with is, indeed, accurate. I don't think there is any distortion. The posted chart (14470) is simply a list in a table of pulse qualities; no syntax or grammar is involved. > I just think that as Bob Flaws pointed > out, the likeliest interpretation of > the phrase is simply " wiry and rapid " . If used as a conjunction, why is it unique? Jason says it's not used as a conjunction anywhere else in the book. Translating dai as a conjunction introduces something new into the text that wasn't used there before. If so, then it is an editor's error. Jim Ramholz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 13, 2003 Jim, There is really just one problem with your reading of these three poor innocent Chinese characters. They don't mean what you want them to mean. I was at the China Academy of TCM today talking with a couple of the people who are in charge of the term standardization project there. We wrote out the three characters and asked them what they mean and they both answered without any hesitation and no doubt that they mean " wiry and fast " . I then asked them if the characters could be interpreted or construed to mean anything at all about the dai4 vessel. Both agreed no, absolutely not. These two folks are both veteran TCM doctors with over fifty years of combined clinical experience and many years of dealing with Chinese medical terms in translation. One of them is responsible for teaching in the international training center at the Academy. So this does tend to uncomplicate the matter. Again, it doesn't in any way comment upon or argue against the validity of your clinical observations. It's just not proper to project these observations onto these particular Chinese words. Clinical experience may be a test of translation, but it cannot and should not distort the original meaning of the words being translated. Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 13, 2003 Ken: Interesting. Did they answer why it was the only use of the conjunction in the book, and why the pulse description does not describe the phlegm component? Jim Ramholz , " dragon90405 <yulong@m...> " <yulong@m...> wrote: > Jim, > > There is really just one problem with > your reading of these three poor innocent > Chinese characters. > > They don't mean what you want them > to mean. > > I was at the China Academy of TCM today > talking with a couple of the people who > are in charge of the term standardization > project there. > > We wrote out the three characters and > asked them what they mean and they > both answered without any hesitation > and no doubt that they mean " wiry and fast " . > > I then asked them if the characters > could be interpreted or construed to > mean anything at all about the dai4 > vessel. Both agreed no, absolutely not. > > These two folks are both veteran > TCM doctors with over fifty years > of combined clinical experience and > many years of dealing with Chinese > medical terms in translation. > > One of them is responsible for teaching > in the international training center > at the Academy. > > So this does tend to uncomplicate > the matter. > > Again, it doesn't in any way comment > upon or argue against the validity of > your clinical observations. It's just > not proper to project these observations > onto these particular Chinese words. > > Clinical experience may be a test of > translation, but it cannot and should > not distort the original meaning of > the words being translated. > > Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 13, 2003 Amen. Bob , " dragon90405 <yulong@m...> " <yulong@m...> wrote: > Jim, > > There is really just one problem with > your reading of these three poor innocent > Chinese characters. > > They don't mean what you want them > to mean. > > I was at the China Academy of TCM today > talking with a couple of the people who > are in charge of the term standardization > project there. > > We wrote out the three characters and > asked them what they mean and they > both answered without any hesitation > and no doubt that they mean " wiry and fast " . > > I then asked them if the characters > could be interpreted or construed to > mean anything at all about the dai4 > vessel. Both agreed no, absolutely not. > > These two folks are both veteran > TCM doctors with over fifty years > of combined clinical experience and > many years of dealing with Chinese > medical terms in translation. > > One of them is responsible for teaching > in the international training center > at the Academy. > > So this does tend to uncomplicate > the matter. > > Again, it doesn't in any way comment > upon or argue against the validity of > your clinical observations. It's just > not proper to project these observations > onto these particular Chinese words. > > Clinical experience may be a test of > translation, but it cannot and should > not distort the original meaning of > the words being translated. > > Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 13, 2003 Ken and others, In regard to this discussion on these three characters - I truly respect ev= eryone's opinions on what these characters might mean. But let us not forge= t it seems that Ken, Bob, and Ken's Chinese friends are taking these charact= ers out of context. These 3 innocent characters have many innocent friends = in a complete book that does not back up the `conj.' argument. [but I am not= ruling this out] But it seems that Jim is the only one who has tried to loo= k at things 'in context'… and since context is everything in CM… let us not = rule him out... So Ken your below assertion may be 100% CORRECT, but may not= .. But, to pontificate that Jim just certainly is wrong, and they " don't mea= n what you want them to mean. " is IMO pompous. Where is the room for discuss= ion? Also, were you clear with your Chinese friends about the whole situatio= n? Were they looking at the whole picture or three innocent characters… So…= Looking for more evidence in the book I did find another use of dai4... It is for Abdominal Pain, and probably the most severe pattern listed, qi s= tagnation, xue stasis.... and .... a pulse of.... drum roll.... roll..... r= oooolll.... " dai4se4 " So given this new information let us ask, what make= s more since? 1) " girdling and choppy " which actually goes along quite nicel= y with Jim's argument 2) `and choppy' - This seems not to work... SO if Bob, Ken, or others have = another Idea for this dai4se4, it would be much appreciated. Although this = book is modern, this section of the book is only classical disease patterns,= it looks like a compilation, so it makes since that a couple of dai4's coul= d get thrown in.;.. Enough for now… -- , " dragon90405 <yulong@m...> " <yul= ong@m...> wrote: > Jim, > > There is really just one problem with > your reading of these three poor innocent > Chinese characters. > > They don't mean what you want them > to mean. > > I was at the China Academy of TCM today > talking with a couple of the people who > are in charge of the term standardization > project there. > > We wrote out the three characters and > asked them what they mean and they > both answered without any hesitation > and no doubt that they mean " wiry and fast " . > > I then asked them if the characters > could be interpreted or construed to > mean anything at all about the dai4 > vessel. Both agreed no, absolutely not. > > These two folks are both veteran > TCM doctors with over fifty years > of combined clinical experience and > many years of dealing with Chinese > medical terms in translation. > > One of them is responsible for teaching > in the international training center > at the Academy. > > So this does tend to uncomplicate > the matter. > > Again, it doesn't in any way comment > upon or argue against the validity of > your clinical observations. It's just > not proper to project these observations > onto these particular Chinese words. > > Clinical experience may be a test of > translation, but it cannot and should > not distort the original meaning of > the words being translated. > > Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 14, 2003 You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Bob , " <@h...> " <@h...> wrote: > Ken and others, > > In regard to this discussion on these three characters - I truly respect ev= > eryone's opinions on what these characters might mean. But let us not forge= > t it seems that Ken, Bob, and Ken's Chinese friends are taking these charact= > ers out of context. These 3 innocent characters have many innocent friends = > in a complete book that does not back up the `conj.' argument. [but I am not= > ruling this out] But it seems that Jim is the only one who has tried to loo= > k at things 'in context'… and since context is everything in CM… let us not = > rule him out... So Ken your below assertion may be 100% CORRECT, but may not= > . But, to pontificate that Jim just certainly is wrong, and they " don't mea= > n what you want them to mean. " is IMO pompous. Where is the room for discuss= > ion? Also, were you clear with your Chinese friends about the whole situatio= > n? Were they looking at the whole picture or three innocent characters… So…= > Looking for more evidence in the book I did find another use of dai4... > > It is for Abdominal Pain, and probably the most severe pattern listed, qi s= > tagnation, xue stasis.... and .... a pulse of.... drum roll.... roll..... r= > oooolll.... " dai4se4 " So given this new information let us ask, what make= > s more since? 1) " girdling and choppy " which actually goes along quite nicel= > y with Jim's argument > 2) `and choppy' - This seems not to work... SO if Bob, Ken, or others have = > another Idea for this dai4se4, it would be much appreciated. Although this = > book is modern, this section of the book is only classical disease patterns,= > it looks like a compilation, so it makes since that a couple of dai4's coul= > d get thrown in.;.. Enough for now… > > -- > > > , " dragon90405 <yulong@m...> " <yul= > ong@m...> wrote: > > Jim, > > > > There is really just one problem with > > your reading of these three poor innocent > > Chinese characters. > > > > They don't mean what you want them > > to mean. > > > > I was at the China Academy of TCM today > > talking with a couple of the people who > > are in charge of the term standardization > > project there. > > > > We wrote out the three characters and > > asked them what they mean and they > > both answered without any hesitation > > and no doubt that they mean " wiry and fast " . > > > > I then asked them if the characters > > could be interpreted or construed to > > mean anything at all about the dai4 > > vessel. Both agreed no, absolutely not. > > > > These two folks are both veteran > > TCM doctors with over fifty years > > of combined clinical experience and > > many years of dealing with Chinese > > medical terms in translation. > > > > One of them is responsible for teaching > > in the international training center > > at the Academy. > > > > So this does tend to uncomplicate > > the matter. > > > > Again, it doesn't in any way comment > > upon or argue against the validity of > > your clinical observations. It's just > > not proper to project these observations > > onto these particular Chinese words. > > > > Clinical experience may be a test of > > translation, but it cannot and should > > not distort the original meaning of > > the words being translated. > > > > Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 14, 2003 , " < @h...> " <@h...> wrote: Although this book is modern, this section of the book is only classical disease patterns, it looks like a compilation, so it makes since that a couple of dai4's could get thrown in. I may have missed this part of the thread, but did someone present a textual citation for what a girdling pulse feels like? Unless I can feel it, it doesn't matter what it means? According to Li shi zhen (paradigm version), " dai mai diseases are evident when the pulse becomes tight at the guan position with beats that vibrate to the right and left. " However, no reference is made to a dai or belt or girdle pulse. the locationof disease in the dai is determined by a particular type of tight pulse. also, Jason, what formula is indicated for in this book for this pattern and pulse? I think I missed that, too. and will, how does this pulse influence your herbal treatment strategy. could you give a concrete example of how this pattern and pulse would lead you to choose herbs that you would not otherwise have chosen with a zang-fu diagnosis (such as Liver constraint qi stagnation)? An idea is only useful if it generates a novel (and effective) treatment strategy that would not have been chosen using standard zang fu diagnostics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 14, 2003 , " <@i...> " <@i...> wrote: > I may have missed this part of the thread, but did someone present a textual citation for what a girdling pulse feels like? Unless I can feel it, it doesn't matter what it means? According to Li shi zhen (paradigm version), " dai mai diseases are evident when the pulse becomes tight at the guan position with beats that vibrate to the right and left. " However, no reference is made to a > dai or belt or girdle pulse. the locationof disease in the dai is determined by a particular type of tight pulse. : Dai4 is an abbreviation for Girdling Vessel (Wiseman) and, in this context, the pulse associated with that Eight Extraordinary Vessel. The placement of the character in the middle is actually a visual pun---even if unintentional. References for the dai pulse can be found in th work of Li Shi-zhen (in both Huynh and Flaws editions), Wang shu-he, Jiang Jing, Miki Shima, Will Morris, and my own work. Consistant in all versions, there is an excess in the middle jiao with comparatively weak proximal and distal. Will Morris has illustrated this pulse and all the Eight Extraordinary Vessel pulses in a document at his pulse forum files section. Jim Ramholz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 14, 2003 Will, how does this pulse influence your herbal treatment strategy. could you give a concrete example of how this pattern and pulse would lead you to choose herbs that you would not otherwise have chosen with a zang-fu diagnosis (such as Liver constraint qi stagnation)? An idea is only useful if it generates a novel (and effective) treatment strategy that would not have been chosen using standard zang fu diagnostics. - Dai pulses usually lead me to acupuncture treatments. This pattern may suggest Sp>Ht entry exit, Lr>lu entry exit treatments; or I may use back shu points for the middle burner. The real deal is whether there are confirming signs and symptoms of dai channel involvement. Because it is the only lateral plane channel, many anomolies of the upward and downward movement of qi and blood may be affected by this channel, leading to a wider array of signs and symptom involvement that what the texts suggest. Here is an array of dai channel descriptions: Tight at the guan with pulses vibrating left and right Forcefully striking at the outer and inner side of the middle position Middle left to right, pellet-like Floating in the middle, sunken distally and proximal Full in both middle positions, diminished distal and proximal positions Ye Tian Shi's Dai channel herbs: Bob Flaw's translation: Dang Gui, Zi Shi Ying, Sha Yuan Zi, Wu Zei Gu, Bai Shao, Shu Di, Gou Qi Zi Yang Tiande's translation: Dang Gui, Bai Shao, Xu Duan, Ai Ye, Sheng Ma, Wu Wei Zi, Qian Shi, Lian Zi, Jing Ying Zi As you can see, Yang's version contains sheng ma, I consider it an important agent because of upbearing and downbearing through the often constricting influence of the dai channel is critical to keeping it open. Ye apparently viewed it as 'dai xia' given the heavy astringent emphasis; which is even greaterer in Flaw's adenda to Ye's herbal set for the dai channel. Will Morris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 15, 2003 , " <@h...> " wrote: " dai4se4 " is for Abdominal Pain, and probably the most severe pattern listed, qi stagnation, xue stasis >> Dai4se4, like the previous use of dai4 in Wiry (xian2) girdling (dai4) rapid (shuo4), refers to one of the pulses of the Eight Extraordinary Vessels. Will's comment that " many anomolies of the upward and downward movement of qi and blood may be affected by this channel " is very appropriate for this pulse. What makes the pulses of the Eight Extraordinary Vessels more interesting (IMO) is that they show larger patterns of relationships between the different jiaos; not simply a linear relationship of a pulse to its individual position. These pulses often escape a beginner's attention because they use one finger at a time or only focus on the pulse's direct connection to its position. But anyone who wants to work with Eight Extraordinary Vessels should learn them. The ability to understand these and other relationships between the pulses gives a practitioner much greater insight into the patient. Jim Ramholz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
