Guest guest Report post Posted January 5, 2002 Bob, > > -- ...So if you have access to some more clarifying > Chinese definition of pain vis a vis this discussion, please let me > know. I'll see what I can find. We're still on the road. So it will have to wait until I can settle down for a little while and look around. Unfortunately, most of our reference books are back in China. But I'll let you know if I find anything interesting. > > > > -- My statement about your tendency to philosophical thought was not > meant as a put-down. Understood. I didn't take it as a put down. I was just pointing out that saying that something was " too much " didn't actually describe the problem you saw with it. And I wondered where you draw the limit. We have agreed once before each person has > certain interests, biases, and tendencies in thinking which lead to > differences in opinion. I simply find much of your discussion more > philosophical than I prefer to think when it comes to Chinese > medicine. I've never tried to minimize my appraisal of the philosophical roots of Chinese medicine. And I do begin to recognize more clearly where you and I differ in our estimates of the relative importance of the underlying philosophical material on which so much of Chinese medical theory is based. My study, practice and ongoing search for understanding of Chinese medicine is based on yin1 yang2, which I regard as profound philosophical artifacts whose conceptual power can can be felt as a sustaining force in all of the more detailed theoretical propositions. But I'm still left wondering where you draw the limit on this valuation of the " philosophical " . And now that we're talking about it more directly, I'm not altogether sure what you mean when you say " philosophical. " Perhaps you can clarify that. I too know the Chinese word tong1 means connect or > communicate. However, I really don't see how this meaning helps us > understand the concept of pain as it appears in the saying " tong ze bu > tong. " Well, if you only think of " tong1 " as " flow " then you'll be thereby guided only to look for flow, address flow, and be cocnerned about flow. If you put the " connection " idea into use, you get a wider range of possibilities that opens up, eg. you can think about connections that exist between various organ systems, associated channels and network vessels; you can work with principles that connect interior and exterior, top and bottom, left and right, front and back, and so on on. I just find it a more comprehensive idea. If you find a blood vessel that is pumping blood onto the carpet, you can certainly anticipate that there's going to be some pain associated with this picture. Here it's a matter of too much flow, but the underlying problem is that the connection that should exist in this vessel has been interrupted. The key to treatment would be to stop the flow and restore the connection. In the lack of a clinical example, it's not all that meaningful to talk about how it might be this way or that way. But my general response to your question is just to suggest that the idea of connection 1)embraces the concept of flow; and 2) admits other potentials as possible variors in the assessment and treatment of pain. > > This morning I have e-mailed a number of professors at Chinese medical > colleges in the PRC as well as native Chinese practitioners of CM > medicine living and working in the U.S. asking them which meaning of > tong1 they believe is most germane to understanding the saying in > question. Realistically, I don't think we can ignore what the Chinese > say they intend when they use a certain term in a specific instance. > > When I get some responses, I will post these as a continuation to this > thread. As I said, this will be interesting. Can you post a copy of the message you circulated? I believe that the way in which such issues are posed can determine the ways in which they are answered. I think, that in order to make this whole exercise as instructive as possible, that we should all be able to read exactly what you asked of your correspondents. And, as I said, I frequently discuss these questions with a wide range of people and have come to have the deepest respect for Chinese scholars. You have even criticisized me for excessive enthusiasm in this regard. But I hold to my earlier opinion that being a native Chinese speaker does not necessarily or thereby confer on anyone any authority to determine proper English equivalents. Many of the most learned Chinese scholars I know either don't speak English or rely on common usage as their guide to English equivalents. One of the reasons why I find Lin Yu Tang's work so enlightening is the high level of accomplishment he attained as a user of the English language. > However, what I was suggesting is that, in my experience, certain > types of patients with certain patterns produced by certain disease > mechanisms seem to be more prone to hypersensitivity to pain than > others. I also hypothesized on the mechanisms that might account for > that hypersensitivity. Chinese doctors do this all the time. We > wouldn't have any textbooks of CM if we didn't engage in this sort of > process. I'm not trying to places limits on your or anyone else's speculations and theoretical explorations. I don't agree that they constitute any sort of bulk of the extant textbooks on the subject that justifies your claim that without such speculation no such textbooks would exist. There is an awful lot of other material to talk about and teach. What I was commenting on was the general attitude toward the application of theory, and I believe that that point was made. > -- Sorry, having read the sentence over myself several times, this is > exactly what I mean. Sensation is a function of the spirit brilliance > (shen ming) which is a synonym for the functional aspects of the > spirit qi and the spirit qi is the qi which accumulates in the heart. I'm going to put these terms on the list of things to think about and look for references about. I'm still not entirely sure what you're saying. > > You can produce sensations in an unconscious > > person, cause sensory responses of various > > kinds, and so on. But I don't think that > > there can be consciousness without sensation. > > Consciousness is, in part at least, awareness > > of sensation, or more precisely, awareness of > > self being aware of sensation. This is a rough > > paraphrase of the approach to understanding > > consciousness contained in Damasio's The Feeling > > of What Happens, that we've talked about before > > if I remember correctly. > > -- I think you would agree that shen ming only refers to conscious > sensation and that is all we are talking about in the context of this > discussion. Well that's one of the things that I'm having some difficulty really getting a grip on in this: what you actually mean by " shen ming " . I think I understand this term in an entirely different way than you're using it. So I'm going to look into it a bit. As Chinese doctor, as a Buddhist yogi and lopon, and as a > human being, I accept Damasio's definition, but I don't see what > bearing that definition has on our discussion. > > If sensation is a function of consciousness or of " shen ming " (if you are simply equating " shen ming " and consciousness) then it comes about as a result of consciousness or in a sequence of phenomena after consciousness. Damasio's model suggests that it's the other way around, i.e. that consciousness results from sensations, rather from patterns of sensations that the body/mind generates as part of its extensive self-referrential feedback system. I'll let you know if I come up with anything worthwhile. Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 6, 2002 As I mentioned I would, I have queried a number of native Chinese-speaking practitioners of Chinese medicine in the PRc and in the U.S. regarding the appropriateness of translating tong1 as either communication or connection in the context of the saying, tong ze bu tong, bu tong ze tong. So far, I have gotten back one response. It is from Daisy Q. Dong, a Colorado registered acupuncturist from the PRC who has also been the Chinese language translation teacher at the Boulder campus of SWAC. According to Dr. Dong, she believes that neither communication nor connection are correct translations in this context. She felt that free flow was the best translation of tong1 in this particular saying. As I get more responses, I will post these as well. Bob , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > Bob, > > > > -- ...So if you have access to some more clarifying > > Chinese definition of pain vis a vis this discussion, please let me > > know. > > I'll see what I can find. We're still on the > road. So it will have to wait until I can > settle down for a little while and look > around. Unfortunately, most of our reference > books are back in China. But I'll let you > know if I find anything interesting. > > > > > > > > -- My statement about your tendency to philosophical thought was > not > > meant as a put-down. > > Understood. I didn't take it as a put down. > I was just pointing out that saying that > something was " too much " didn't actually > describe the problem you saw with it. And > I wondered where you draw the limit. > > We have agreed once before each person has > > certain interests, biases, and tendencies in thinking which lead to > > differences in opinion. I simply find much of your discussion more > > philosophical than I prefer to think when it comes to Chinese > > medicine. > > I've never tried to minimize my appraisal of > the philosophical roots of Chinese medicine. > And I do begin to recognize more clearly where > you and I differ in our estimates of the > relative importance of the underlying philosophical > material on which so much of Chinese medical > theory is based. > > My study, practice and ongoing search for understanding > of Chinese medicine is based on yin1 yang2, which > I regard as profound philosophical artifacts whose > conceptual power can can be felt as a sustaining > force in all of the more detailed theoretical > propositions. > > But I'm still left wondering where you draw the > limit on this valuation of the " philosophical " . > And now that we're talking about it more directly, > I'm not altogether sure what you mean when you > say " philosophical. " Perhaps you can clarify > that. > > I too know the Chinese word tong1 means connect or > > communicate. However, I really don't see how this meaning helps us > > understand the concept of pain as it appears in the saying " tong ze > bu > > tong. " > > Well, if you only think of " tong1 " as > " flow " then you'll be thereby guided > only to look for flow, address flow, > and be cocnerned about flow. If you > put the " connection " idea into use, > you get a wider range of possibilities > that opens up, eg. you can think about > connections that exist between various > organ systems, associated channels and > network vessels; you can work with > principles that connect interior and > exterior, top and bottom, left and right, > front and back, and so on on. > > I just find it a more comprehensive > idea. If you find a blood vessel that > is pumping blood onto the carpet, > you can certainly anticipate that > there's going to be some pain associated > with this picture. Here it's a matter > of too much flow, but the underlying > problem is that the connection that > should exist in this vessel has been > interrupted. The key to treatment > would be to stop the flow and restore > the connection. > > In the lack of a clinical example, it's > not all that meaningful to talk about > how it might be this way or that way. > But my general response to your question > is just to suggest that the idea of > connection 1)embraces the concept of > flow; and 2) admits other potentials > as possible variors in the assessment > and treatment of pain. > > > > > This morning I have e-mailed a number of professors at Chinese > medical > > colleges in the PRC as well as native Chinese practitioners of CM > > medicine living and working in the U.S. asking them which meaning > of > > tong1 they believe is most germane to understanding the saying in > > question. Realistically, I don't think we can ignore what the > Chinese > > say they intend when they use a certain term in a specific instance. > > > > When I get some responses, I will post these as a continuation to > this > > thread. > > As I said, this will be interesting. > Can you post a copy of the message > you circulated? I believe that the > way in which such issues are posed > can determine the ways in which they > are answered. I think, that in order > to make this whole exercise as instructive > as possible, that we should all be able > to read exactly what you asked of your > correspondents. > > And, as I said, I frequently discuss > these questions with a wide range of > people and have come to have the deepest > respect for Chinese scholars. You have > even criticisized me for excessive > enthusiasm in this regard. But I hold > to my earlier opinion that being a native > Chinese speaker does not necessarily or > thereby confer on anyone any authority > to determine proper English equivalents. > Many of the most learned Chinese scholars > I know either don't speak English or > rely on common usage as their guide > to English equivalents. > > One of the reasons why I find Lin Yu Tang's > work so enlightening is the high level of > accomplishment he attained as a user of > the English language. > > > > However, what I was suggesting is that, in my experience, certain > > types of patients with certain patterns produced by certain disease > > mechanisms seem to be more prone to hypersensitivity to pain than > > others. I also hypothesized on the mechanisms that might account > for > > that hypersensitivity. Chinese doctors do this all the time. We > > wouldn't have any textbooks of CM if we didn't engage in this sort > of > > process. > > > I'm not trying to places limits on your or > anyone else's speculations and theoretical > explorations. I don't agree that they constitute > any sort of bulk of the extant textbooks on > the subject that justifies your claim that > without such speculation no such textbooks > would exist. There is an awful lot of other > material to talk about and teach. > > What I was commenting on was the general attitude > toward the application of theory, and I believe > that that point was made. > > > > -- Sorry, having read the sentence over myself several times, this > is > > exactly what I mean. Sensation is a function of the spirit > brilliance > > (shen ming) which is a synonym for the functional aspects of the > > spirit qi and the spirit qi is the qi which accumulates in the > heart. > > I'm going to put these terms on the list > of things to think about and look for > references about. I'm still not entirely > sure what you're saying. > > > > > You can produce sensations in an unconscious > > > person, cause sensory responses of various > > > kinds, and so on. But I don't think that > > > there can be consciousness without sensation. > > > Consciousness is, in part at least, awareness > > > of sensation, or more precisely, awareness of > > > self being aware of sensation. This is a rough > > > paraphrase of the approach to understanding > > > consciousness contained in Damasio's The Feeling > > > of What Happens, that we've talked about before > > > if I remember correctly. > > > > -- I think you would agree that shen ming only refers to conscious > > sensation and that is all we are talking about in the context of > this > > discussion. > > Well that's one of the things that I'm having > some difficulty really getting a grip on in > this: what you actually mean by " shen ming " . > > I think I understand this term in an entirely > different way than you're using it. So I'm going > to look into it a bit. > > As Chinese doctor, as a Buddhist yogi and lopon, and as a > > human being, I accept Damasio's definition, but I don't see what > > bearing that definition has on our discussion. > > > > > If sensation is a function of consciousness > or of " shen ming " (if you are simply equating > " shen ming " and consciousness) then it comes > about as a result of consciousness or in a sequence > of phenomena after consciousness. > > Damasio's model suggests that it's the other > way around, i.e. that consciousness results > from sensations, rather from patterns of > sensations that the body/mind generates > as part of its extensive self-referrential > feedback system. > > > I'll let you know if I come up with anything > worthwhile. > > Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 6, 2002 Opium, Ya Pian, is found on pages 1640-1642 of the Zhong Yao Da Ci Dian. It's standard contemporary description in that dictionary is that it is acrid, warm and has toxins. It enters the lung, kidney, and large intestine channels, and it contrains the lungs, stops cough, astringes the intestines, and stops pain. While this dictionary does not categorize medicinals, based on this description, I would think it would be categorized as a securing and astringing med (gu se yao). Interestingly, the author(s) of Tang Ben Cao thought this med was acrid, bitter, and level, while Li Shi-shen thought it was sour, astringing, warm, and slightly toxic. In other words, as with most Chinese medical descriptions, there have been varying descriptions by different authors, each based on their own methodologies. Similarly, the Zhong Yao Da Ci Dian cites three different opinions on channel gatherings and four somewhat differing opinions on the clinical uses and indications. Note also that this description is somewhat at variance from the description of morphine drugs I translated and posted at www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.com. Personally, I think there is still a problem here with the ZYDCD description. I cannot think of any line of reasoning why a securing and astringing medicinal would A) cause sedation to the point of unconsciousness and B) stop pain. In other words, my guess is that the final word on this med has yet to be written in terms of CM description. As any reader of the ZYDCD can see, CM descriptions of CM medicinals is an evolutionary and on-going process. In the ZYDCD, there is no mention of this med's scattering and diffusing properties, although the fact that its flavor and nature are now believed to be acrid and warm would certainly account for this. In B & G, there is only one other securing and astringing med that is acrid and warm, Fructus Myristicae Fragrantis (Rou Dou Kou). Most of the rest are sour, while some are sweet and astringent. Interestingly, Rou Dou Kou also has marked pyschotropic effects. In Tibetan medicine, Rou Dou Kou (Nutmeg, Dza-ti) is used in almost all psychotropic formulas and does not seem to be considered an important intestine-astringing med. This makes me ask the question, is it possible that, at different doses, a medicinal might have different CM descriptions? We already know that a medicinal may have different CM descriptions when different pao-zhiring or processing methods are used. How about different doses? Along somewhat similar lines, Fructus Terminaliae Chebulae (He Zi) is a securing and astringing medicinal for the treatment of enduring diarrhea in CM when used at 3-9g p.d. In Tibetan medicine, this med is a famous stool flow-freeing med. However, in Tibetan medicine, it is used at a much smaller dose. Anyone want to comment on any of this? Bob , " " <@o...> wrote: > IT would be interesting to see if opium is in the Materia Medica > somewhere? Z'ev do you have it any of your resources? Others? > > > > > > 1 [@i...] > > > > So the question returns to whether an herb or drug like morphine can > be > > called a blood mover. You seem to be saying since the drug has no > > actual effect on blood circulation from a western perspective, but > > merely blocks pain receptors, it does not actually cause movement. > And > > also that the condition of blood stasis (presumably from a TCM > > perspective) is not really altered. That morphine does not lead to > any > > healing, such as the way an herb like hong hua, dan shen, chaun xiong > > do. I'll add that most of the herbs I can think of that move blood in > > TCM also alter circulation in WM. The thing that occurs to me as I > > write this is that when one takes morphine or other opiates for pain > > (many people are familiar with vicodin for dental work, as an > example), > > the perception of the patient is a restoration of qi flow, albeit > > temporary. > > > > Can you clarify this? I am unclear what that means... (restoration of > qi flow)? > > I am not sure that it says anywhere in the CM literature > > that blood mover leads to healing. > > > You are right, I have never read this.. But it seems that there is > always some long-term, short-term healing or substantial (tangible) > results associated with all blood movers - something more than just pain > relief. So what is actually happening when blood and qi is moved? And > if one were just to block the perception (i.e. with a hypnotic audio > signal, or other external sources) I don't think that qi or xue is being > moved (in at least a local area) to stop the pain (from a CM > perspective). There is obviously qi movement in the brain, but this > does not seem to be what the Chinese are talking about... or could it > be? I get the impression qi/xue movement is in reference to 'the' local > area (directly relational to the pain). What do you think? What more > do the Chinese say about pain? > > It is a branch or excess pathology, > > after all. Isn't it this change in subjective perception the basis of > > all understanding in TCM. For example, an herb may lead to altered > > perception of heat effusion without altering body temperature. > > Nevertheless, could such an herb be said to have a heat clearing > > function anyway? On a concrete level, taking morphine allows one who > > is doubled over or crying in agony, who can't move even the slightest > > bit to have their freedom of movement or function restored. > > > Interesting point... something obviously has moved... So if pain is > just pure perception, and if we can influence this perception with > herbals or external sources I guess we are moving qi...? > > -JAson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 6, 2002 As any reader of the ZYDCD can see, CM descriptions of CM medicinals is an evolutionary and on-going process. >>>>The question is should we look at pain beyond just free flow. For example, Chang Pu, Zao Ren, Ling Zhi, Du zhong, Gan Cao, Long Kui, Yi Ren, xian He Cao all have analgesic properties. Alon - pemachophel2001 Sunday, January 06, 2002 1:25 PM Re: Qi regulation Opium, Ya Pian, is found on pages 1640-1642 of the Zhong Yao Da Ci Dian. It's standard contemporary description in that dictionary is that it is acrid, warm and has toxins. It enters the lung, kidney, and large intestine channels, and it contrains the lungs, stops cough, astringes the intestines, and stops pain. While this dictionary does not categorize medicinals, based on this description, I would think it would be categorized as a securing and astringing med (gu se yao).Interestingly, the author(s) of Tang Ben Cao thought this med was acrid, bitter, and level, while Li Shi-shen thought it was sour, astringing, warm, and slightly toxic. In other words, as with most Chinese medical descriptions, there have been varying descriptions by different authors, each based on their own methodologies. Similarly, the Zhong Yao Da Ci Dian cites three different opinions on channel gatherings and four somewhat differing opinions on the clinical uses and indications. Note also that this description is somewhat at variance from the description of morphine drugs I translated and posted at www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.com.Personally, I think there is still a problem here with the ZYDCD description. I cannot think of any line of reasoning why a securing and astringing medicinal would A) cause sedation to the point of unconsciousness and B) stop pain. In other words, my guess is that the final word on this med has yet to be written in terms of CM description. As any reader of the ZYDCD can see, CM descriptions of CM medicinals is an evolutionary and on-going process. In the ZYDCD, there is no mention of this med's scattering and diffusing properties, although the fact that its flavor and nature are now believed to be acrid and warm would certainly account for this.In B & G, there is only one other securing and astringing med that is acrid and warm, Fructus Myristicae Fragrantis (Rou Dou Kou). Most of the rest are sour, while some are sweet and astringent. Interestingly, Rou Dou Kou also has marked pyschotropic effects. In Tibetan medicine, Rou Dou Kou (Nutmeg, Dza-ti) is used in almost all psychotropic formulas and does not seem to be considered an important intestine-astringing med. This makes me ask the question, is it possible that, at different doses, a medicinal might have different CM descriptions? We already know that a medicinal may have different CM descriptions when different pao-zhiring or processing methods are used. How about different doses? Along somewhat similar lines, Fructus Terminaliae Chebulae (He Zi) is a securing and astringing medicinal for the treatment of enduring diarrhea in CM when used at 3-9g p.d. In Tibetan medicine, this med is a famous stool flow-freeing med. However, in Tibetan medicine, it is used at a much smaller dose.Anyone want to comment on any of this?Bob , "" <@o...> wrote:> IT would be interesting to see if opium is in the Materia Medica> somewhere? Z'ev do you have it any of your resources? Others?> > > > > > 1 [@i...]> > > > So the question returns to whether an herb or drug like morphine can> be> > called a blood mover. You seem to be saying since the drug has no> > actual effect on blood circulation from a western perspective, but> > merely blocks pain receptors, it does not actually cause movement.> And> > also that the condition of blood stasis (presumably from a TCM> > perspective) is not really altered. That morphine does not lead to> any> > healing, such as the way an herb like hong hua, dan shen, chaun xiong> > do. I'll add that most of the herbs I can think of that move blood in> > TCM also alter circulation in WM. The thing that occurs to me as I> > write this is that when one takes morphine or other opiates for pain> > (many people are familiar with vicodin for dental work, as an> example),> > the perception of the patient is a restoration of qi flow, albeit> > temporary.> > > > Can you clarify this? I am unclear what that means... (restoration of> qi flow)?> > I am not sure that it says anywhere in the CM literature> > that blood mover leads to healing. > > > You are right, I have never read this.. But it seems that there is> always some long-term, short-term healing or substantial (tangible)> results associated with all blood movers - something more than just pain> relief. So what is actually happening when blood and qi is moved? And> if one were just to block the perception (i.e. with a hypnotic audio> signal, or other external sources) I don't think that qi or xue is being> moved (in at least a local area) to stop the pain (from a CM> perspective). There is obviously qi movement in the brain, but this> does not seem to be what the Chinese are talking about... or could it> be? I get the impression qi/xue movement is in reference to 'the' local> area (directly relational to the pain). What do you think? What more> do the Chinese say about pain?> > It is a branch or excess pathology,> > after all. Isn't it this change in subjective perception the basis of> > all understanding in TCM. For example, an herb may lead to altered> > perception of heat effusion without altering body temperature.> > Nevertheless, could such an herb be said to have a heat clearing> > function anyway? On a concrete level, taking morphine allows one who> > is doubled over or crying in agony, who can't move even the slightest> > bit to have their freedom of movement or function restored.> > > Interesting point... something obviously has moved... So if pain is> just pure perception, and if we can influence this perception with> herbals or external sources I guess we are moving qi...?> > -JAsonChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. 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Guest guest Report post Posted January 6, 2002 Bob, > According to Dr. Dong, she believes that neither communication nor > connection are correct translations in this context. She felt that > free flow was the best translation of tong1 in this particular saying. Did she explain her reasoning? You should invite her to join our discussion, then her opinions might become more valuable to all of us. I'm still curious to read the email you circulated, particularly if you plan to put up a series of replies from various people. Ken > > As I get more responses, I will post these as well. > > Bob > > , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > > Bob, > > > > > > -- ...So if you have access to some more clarifying > > > Chinese definition of pain vis a vis this discussion, please let > me > > > know. > > > > I'll see what I can find. We're still on the > > road. So it will have to wait until I can > > settle down for a little while and look > > around. Unfortunately, most of our reference > > books are back in China. But I'll let you > > know if I find anything interesting. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- My statement about your tendency to philosophical thought was > > not > > > meant as a put-down. > > > > Understood. I didn't take it as a put down. > > I was just pointing out that saying that > > something was " too much " didn't actually > > describe the problem you saw with it. And > > I wondered where you draw the limit. > > > > We have agreed once before each person has > > > certain interests, biases, and tendencies in thinking which lead > to > > > differences in opinion. I simply find much of your discussion more > > > philosophical than I prefer to think when it comes to Chinese > > > medicine. > > > > I've never tried to minimize my appraisal of > > the philosophical roots of Chinese medicine. > > And I do begin to recognize more clearly where > > you and I differ in our estimates of the > > relative importance of the underlying philosophical > > material on which so much of Chinese medical > > theory is based. > > > > My study, practice and ongoing search for understanding > > of Chinese medicine is based on yin1 yang2, which > > I regard as profound philosophical artifacts whose > > conceptual power can can be felt as a sustaining > > force in all of the more detailed theoretical > > propositions. > > > > But I'm still left wondering where you draw the > > limit on this valuation of the " philosophical " . > > And now that we're talking about it more directly, > > I'm not altogether sure what you mean when you > > say " philosophical. " Perhaps you can clarify > > that. > > > > I too know the Chinese word tong1 means connect or > > > communicate. However, I really don't see how this meaning helps us > > > understand the concept of pain as it appears in the saying " tong > ze > > bu > > > tong. " > > > > Well, if you only think of " tong1 " as > > " flow " then you'll be thereby guided > > only to look for flow, address flow, > > and be cocnerned about flow. If you > > put the " connection " idea into use, > > you get a wider range of possibilities > > that opens up, eg. you can think about > > connections that exist between various > > organ systems, associated channels and > > network vessels; you can work with > > principles that connect interior and > > exterior, top and bottom, left and right, > > front and back, and so on on. > > > > I just find it a more comprehensive > > idea. If you find a blood vessel that > > is pumping blood onto the carpet, > > you can certainly anticipate that > > there's going to be some pain associated > > with this picture. Here it's a matter > > of too much flow, but the underlying > > problem is that the connection that > > should exist in this vessel has been > > interrupted. The key to treatment > > would be to stop the flow and restore > > the connection. > > > > In the lack of a clinical example, it's > > not all that meaningful to talk about > > how it might be this way or that way. > > But my general response to your question > > is just to suggest that the idea of > > connection 1)embraces the concept of > > flow; and 2) admits other potentials > > as possible variors in the assessment > > and treatment of pain. > > > > > > > > This morning I have e-mailed a number of professors at Chinese > > medical > > > colleges in the PRC as well as native Chinese practitioners of CM > > > medicine living and working in the U.S. asking them which meaning > > of > > > tong1 they believe is most germane to understanding the saying in > > > question. Realistically, I don't think we can ignore what the > > Chinese > > > say they intend when they use a certain term in a specific > instance. > > > > > > When I get some responses, I will post these as a continuation to > > this > > > thread. > > > > As I said, this will be interesting. > > Can you post a copy of the message > > you circulated? I believe that the > > way in which such issues are posed > > can determine the ways in which they > > are answered. I think, that in order > > to make this whole exercise as instructive > > as possible, that we should all be able > > to read exactly what you asked of your > > correspondents. > > > > And, as I said, I frequently discuss > > these questions with a wide range of > > people and have come to have the deepest > > respect for Chinese scholars. You have > > even criticisized me for excessive > > enthusiasm in this regard. But I hold > > to my earlier opinion that being a native > > Chinese speaker does not necessarily or > > thereby confer on anyone any authority > > to determine proper English equivalents. > > Many of the most learned Chinese scholars > > I know either don't speak English or > > rely on common usage as their guide > > to English equivalents. > > > > One of the reasons why I find Lin Yu Tang's > > work so enlightening is the high level of > > accomplishment he attained as a user of > > the English language. > > > > > > > However, what I was suggesting is that, in my experience, certain > > > types of patients with certain patterns produced by certain > disease > > > mechanisms seem to be more prone to hypersensitivity to pain than > > > others. I also hypothesized on the mechanisms that might account > > for > > > that hypersensitivity. Chinese doctors do this all the time. We > > > wouldn't have any textbooks of CM if we didn't engage in this sort > > of > > > process. > > > > > > I'm not trying to places limits on your or > > anyone else's speculations and theoretical > > explorations. I don't agree that they constitute > > any sort of bulk of the extant textbooks on > > the subject that justifies your claim that > > without such speculation no such textbooks > > would exist. There is an awful lot of other > > material to talk about and teach. > > > > What I was commenting on was the general attitude > > toward the application of theory, and I believe > > that that point was made. > > > > > > > -- Sorry, having read the sentence over myself several times, this > > is > > > exactly what I mean. Sensation is a function of the spirit > > brilliance > > > (shen ming) which is a synonym for the functional aspects of the > > > spirit qi and the spirit qi is the qi which accumulates in the > > heart. > > > > I'm going to put these terms on the list > > of things to think about and look for > > references about. I'm still not entirely > > sure what you're saying. > > > > > > > > You can produce sensations in an unconscious > > > > person, cause sensory responses of various > > > > kinds, and so on. But I don't think that > > > > there can be consciousness without sensation. > > > > Consciousness is, in part at least, awareness > > > > of sensation, or more precisely, awareness of > > > > self being aware of sensation. This is a rough > > > > paraphrase of the approach to understanding > > > > consciousness contained in Damasio's The Feeling > > > > of What Happens, that we've talked about before > > > > if I remember correctly. > > > > > > -- I think you would agree that shen ming only refers to conscious > > > sensation and that is all we are talking about in the context of > > this > > > discussion. > > > > Well that's one of the things that I'm having > > some difficulty really getting a grip on in > > this: what you actually mean by " shen ming " . > > > > I think I understand this term in an entirely > > different way than you're using it. So I'm going > > to look into it a bit. > > > > As Chinese doctor, as a Buddhist yogi and lopon, and as a > > > human being, I accept Damasio's definition, but I don't see what > > > bearing that definition has on our discussion. > > > > > > > > If sensation is a function of consciousness > > or of " shen ming " (if you are simply equating > > " shen ming " and consciousness) then it comes > > about as a result of consciousness or in a sequence > > of phenomena after consciousness. > > > > Damasio's model suggests that it's the other > > way around, i.e. that consciousness results > > from sensations, rather from patterns of > > sensations that the body/mind generates > > as part of its extensive self-referrential > > feedback system. > > > > > > I'll let you know if I come up with anything > > worthwhile. > > > > Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 6, 2002 Ken, No, Daisy didn't give any reason for her preference in terms of translation. The question that I asked the various Chinese doctors I queried was which translation of tong1 they thought was the best or correct one in terms of the saying tong ze bu tong -- free flow, connection, or communication. While Daisy acknowledged that tong1 may mean connection or communication in other contexts, she thought that was not a good translation in this context. I did tell all the Chinese doctors I queried that my question was stimulated by a discussion on this site and I did include the URL in case any of them wanted to A) take a look for themselves or B) join in the discussion. Bob , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > Bob, > > > According to Dr. Dong, she believes that neither communication nor > > connection are correct translations in this context. She felt that > > free flow was the best translation of tong1 in this particular > saying. > > Did she explain her reasoning? > > You should invite her to join our discussion, > then her opinions might become more valuable to > all of us. > > I'm still curious to read the email you > circulated, particularly if you plan to put up > a series of replies from various people. > > Ken > > > > As I get more responses, I will post these as well. > > > > Bob > > > > , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > > > Bob, > > > > > > > > -- ...So if you have access to some more clarifying > > > > Chinese definition of pain vis a vis this discussion, please > let > > me > > > > know. > > > > > > I'll see what I can find. We're still on the > > > road. So it will have to wait until I can > > > settle down for a little while and look > > > around. Unfortunately, most of our reference > > > books are back in China. But I'll let you > > > know if I find anything interesting. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- My statement about your tendency to philosophical thought > was > > > not > > > > meant as a put-down. > > > > > > Understood. I didn't take it as a put down. > > > I was just pointing out that saying that > > > something was " too much " didn't actually > > > describe the problem you saw with it. And > > > I wondered where you draw the limit. > > > > > > We have agreed once before each person has > > > > certain interests, biases, and tendencies in thinking which > lead > > to > > > > differences in opinion. I simply find much of your discussion > more > > > > philosophical than I prefer to think when it comes to Chinese > > > > medicine. > > > > > > I've never tried to minimize my appraisal of > > > the philosophical roots of Chinese medicine. > > > And I do begin to recognize more clearly where > > > you and I differ in our estimates of the > > > relative importance of the underlying philosophical > > > material on which so much of Chinese medical > > > theory is based. > > > > > > My study, practice and ongoing search for understanding > > > of Chinese medicine is based on yin1 yang2, which > > > I regard as profound philosophical artifacts whose > > > conceptual power can can be felt as a sustaining > > > force in all of the more detailed theoretical > > > propositions. > > > > > > But I'm still left wondering where you draw the > > > limit on this valuation of the " philosophical " . > > > And now that we're talking about it more directly, > > > I'm not altogether sure what you mean when you > > > say " philosophical. " Perhaps you can clarify > > > that. > > > > > > I too know the Chinese word tong1 means connect or > > > > communicate. However, I really don't see how this meaning helps > us > > > > understand the concept of pain as it appears in the > saying " tong > > ze > > > bu > > > > tong. " > > > > > > Well, if you only think of " tong1 " as > > > " flow " then you'll be thereby guided > > > only to look for flow, address flow, > > > and be cocnerned about flow. If you > > > put the " connection " idea into use, > > > you get a wider range of possibilities > > > that opens up, eg. you can think about > > > connections that exist between various > > > organ systems, associated channels and > > > network vessels; you can work with > > > principles that connect interior and > > > exterior, top and bottom, left and right, > > > front and back, and so on on. > > > > > > I just find it a more comprehensive > > > idea. If you find a blood vessel that > > > is pumping blood onto the carpet, > > > you can certainly anticipate that > > > there's going to be some pain associated > > > with this picture. Here it's a matter > > > of too much flow, but the underlying > > > problem is that the connection that > > > should exist in this vessel has been > > > interrupted. The key to treatment > > > would be to stop the flow and restore > > > the connection. > > > > > > In the lack of a clinical example, it's > > > not all that meaningful to talk about > > > how it might be this way or that way. > > > But my general response to your question > > > is just to suggest that the idea of > > > connection 1)embraces the concept of > > > flow; and 2) admits other potentials > > > as possible variors in the assessment > > > and treatment of pain. > > > > > > > > > > > This morning I have e-mailed a number of professors at Chinese > > > medical > > > > colleges in the PRC as well as native Chinese practitioners of > CM > > > > medicine living and working in the U.S. asking them which > meaning > > > of > > > > tong1 they believe is most germane to understanding the saying > in > > > > question. Realistically, I don't think we can ignore what the > > > Chinese > > > > say they intend when they use a certain term in a specific > > instance. > > > > > > > > When I get some responses, I will post these as a continuation > to > > > this > > > > thread. > > > > > > As I said, this will be interesting. > > > Can you post a copy of the message > > > you circulated? I believe that the > > > way in which such issues are posed > > > can determine the ways in which they > > > are answered. I think, that in order > > > to make this whole exercise as instructive > > > as possible, that we should all be able > > > to read exactly what you asked of your > > > correspondents. > > > > > > And, as I said, I frequently discuss > > > these questions with a wide range of > > > people and have come to have the deepest > > > respect for Chinese scholars. You have > > > even criticisized me for excessive > > > enthusiasm in this regard. But I hold > > > to my earlier opinion that being a native > > > Chinese speaker does not necessarily or > > > thereby confer on anyone any authority > > > to determine proper English equivalents. > > > Many of the most learned Chinese scholars > > > I know either don't speak English or > > > rely on common usage as their guide > > > to English equivalents. > > > > > > One of the reasons why I find Lin Yu Tang's > > > work so enlightening is the high level of > > > accomplishment he attained as a user of > > > the English language. > > > > > > > > > > However, what I was suggesting is that, in my experience, > certain > > > > types of patients with certain patterns produced by certain > > disease > > > > mechanisms seem to be more prone to hypersensitivity to pain > than > > > > others. I also hypothesized on the mechanisms that might > account > > > for > > > > that hypersensitivity. Chinese doctors do this all the time. We > > > > wouldn't have any textbooks of CM if we didn't engage in this > sort > > > of > > > > process. > > > > > > > > > I'm not trying to places limits on your or > > > anyone else's speculations and theoretical > > > explorations. I don't agree that they constitute > > > any sort of bulk of the extant textbooks on > > > the subject that justifies your claim that > > > without such speculation no such textbooks > > > would exist. There is an awful lot of other > > > material to talk about and teach. > > > > > > What I was commenting on was the general attitude > > > toward the application of theory, and I believe > > > that that point was made. > > > > > > > > > > -- Sorry, having read the sentence over myself several times, > this > > > is > > > > exactly what I mean. Sensation is a function of the spirit > > > brilliance > > > > (shen ming) which is a synonym for the functional aspects of > the > > > > spirit qi and the spirit qi is the qi which accumulates in the > > > heart. > > > > > > I'm going to put these terms on the list > > > of things to think about and look for > > > references about. I'm still not entirely > > > sure what you're saying. > > > > > > > > > > > You can produce sensations in an unconscious > > > > > person, cause sensory responses of various > > > > > kinds, and so on. But I don't think that > > > > > there can be consciousness without sensation. > > > > > Consciousness is, in part at least, awareness > > > > > of sensation, or more precisely, awareness of > > > > > self being aware of sensation. This is a rough > > > > > paraphrase of the approach to understanding > > > > > consciousness contained in Damasio's The Feeling > > > > > of What Happens, that we've talked about before > > > > > if I remember correctly. > > > > > > > > -- I think you would agree that shen ming only refers to > conscious > > > > sensation and that is all we are talking about in the context > of > > > this > > > > discussion. > > > > > > Well that's one of the things that I'm having > > > some difficulty really getting a grip on in > > > this: what you actually mean by " shen ming " . > > > > > > I think I understand this term in an entirely > > > different way than you're using it. So I'm going > > > to look into it a bit. > > > > > > As Chinese doctor, as a Buddhist yogi and lopon, and as a > > > > human being, I accept Damasio's definition, but I don't see > what > > > > bearing that definition has on our discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > If sensation is a function of consciousness > > > or of " shen ming " (if you are simply equating > > > " shen ming " and consciousness) then it comes > > > about as a result of consciousness or in a sequence > > > of phenomena after consciousness. > > > > > > Damasio's model suggests that it's the other > > > way around, i.e. that consciousness results > > > from sensations, rather from patterns of > > > sensations that the body/mind generates > > > as part of its extensive self-referrential > > > feedback system. > > > > > > > > > I'll let you know if I come up with anything > > > worthwhile. > > > > > > Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 6, 2002 Chapter 7 in Elisabeth Hsu's " Innovation in " is a modern commentary on Li Shih-zhen's Ben cao gang mu. by Georges Metalie. There is a discussion about opium further clarifying Bob's reference in the zhong yao da ci dian. Papaver somniferum L. is mentioned in the gu bu/grain seed section of the Ben cao gang mu (because of its edible seeds). According to Li Shih-zhen, a fu rong(also named ya pian) 'was seldom heard of in previous times (before 18th century C.E.). Dr. Li notes that that a fu rong/opium was used for the bedchamber arts, Under qi and wei , opium is described as being sour and astringent, like the commonly used hard capsule (ying su ke). Unlike the capsule, which is considered to be slightly cooling and non-toxic, a fu rong is warm and slightly toxic. It is used for long-term diarrhea resulting in rectal/anal prolapse, and loss of semen. On Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 11:25 AM, pemachophel2001 wrote: > Opium, Ya Pian, is found on pages 1640-1642 of the Zhong Yao Da Ci > Dian. It's standard contemporary description in that dictionary is > that it is acrid, warm and has toxins. It enters the lung, kidney, and > large intestine channels, and it contrains the lungs, stops cough, > astringes the intestines, and stops pain. While this dictionary does > not categorize medicinals, based on this description, I would think it > would be categorized as a securing and astringing med (gu se yao). > > Interestingly, the author(s) of Tang Ben Cao thought this med was > acrid, bitter, and level, while Li Shi-shen thought it was sour, > astringing, warm, and slightly toxic. In other words, as with most > Chinese medical descriptions, there have been varying descriptions by > different authors, each based on their own methodologies. Similarly, > the Zhong Yao Da Ci Dian cites three different opinions on channel > gatherings and four somewhat differing opinions on the clinical uses > and indications. Note also that this description is somewhat at > variance from the description of morphine drugs I translated and > posted at www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.com. > > Personally, I think there is still a problem here with the ZYDCD > description. I cannot think of any line of reasoning why a securing > and astringing medicinal would A) cause sedation to the point of > unconsciousness and B) stop pain. In other words, my guess is that the > final word on this med has yet to be written in terms of CM > description. As any reader of the ZYDCD can see, CM descriptions of CM > medicinals is an evolutionary and on-going process. In the ZYDCD, > there is no mention of this med's scattering and diffusing properties, > although the fact that its flavor and nature are now believed to be > acrid and warm would certainly account for this. > > In B & G, there is only one other securing and astringing med that is > acrid and warm, Fructus Myristicae Fragrantis (Rou Dou Kou). Most of > the rest are sour, while some are sweet and astringent. Interestingly, > Rou Dou Kou also has marked pyschotropic effects. In Tibetan > medicine, Rou Dou Kou (Nutmeg, Dza-ti) is used in almost all > psychotropic formulas and does not seem to be considered an important > intestine-astringing med. This makes me ask the question, is it > possible that, at different doses, a medicinal might have different CM > descriptions? We already know that a medicinal may have different CM > descriptions when different pao-zhiring or processing methods are > used. How about different doses? Along somewhat similar lines, > Fructus Terminaliae Chebulae (He Zi) is a securing and astringing > medicinal for the treatment of enduring diarrhea in CM when used at > 3-9g p.d. In Tibetan medicine, this med is a famous stool flow-freeing > med. However, in Tibetan medicine, it is used at a much smaller dose. > > Anyone want to comment on any of this? > > Bob > > , " " <@o...> wrote: > > IT would be interesting to see if opium is in the Materia Medica > > somewhere? Z'ev do you have it any of your resources? Others? > > > > > > > > > > 1 [@i...] > > > > > > So the question returns to whether an herb or drug like morphine > can > > be > > > called a blood mover. You seem to be saying since the drug has no > > > actual effect on blood circulation from a western perspective, but > > > merely blocks pain receptors, it does not actually cause movement. > > And > > > also that the condition of blood stasis (presumably from a TCM > > > perspective) is not really altered. That morphine does not lead > to > > any > > > healing, such as the way an herb like hong hua, dan shen, chaun > xiong > > > do. I'll add that most of the herbs I can think of that move > blood in > > > TCM also alter circulation in WM. The thing that occurs to me as > I > > > write this is that when one takes morphine or other opiates for > pain > > > (many people are familiar with vicodin for dental work, as an > > example), > > > the perception of the patient is a restoration of qi flow, albeit > > > temporary. > > > > > > > > Can you clarify this? I am unclear what that means... (restoration > of > > qi flow)? > > > > I am not sure that it says anywhere in the CM literature > > > that blood mover leads to healing. > > > > > > You are right, I have never read this.. But it seems that there is > > always some long-term, short-term healing or substantial (tangible) > > results associated with all blood movers - something more than just > pain > > relief. So what is actually happening when blood and qi is moved? > And > > if one were just to block the perception (i.e. with a hypnotic audio > > signal, or other external sources) I don't think that qi or xue is > being > > moved (in at least a local area) to stop the pain (from a CM > > perspective). There is obviously qi movement in the brain, but this > > does not seem to be what the Chinese are talking about... or could > it > > be? I get the impression qi/xue movement is in reference to 'the' > local > > area (directly relational to the pain). What do you think? What > more > > do the Chinese say about pain? > > > > It is a branch or excess pathology, > > > after all. Isn't it this change in subjective perception the > basis of > > > all understanding in TCM. For example, an herb may lead to > altered > > > perception of heat effusion without altering body temperature. > > > Nevertheless, could such an herb be said to have a heat clearing > > > function anyway? On a concrete level, taking morphine allows one > who > > > is doubled over or crying in agony, who can't move even the > slightest > > > bit to have their freedom of movement or function restored. > > > > > > Interesting point... something obviously has moved... So if pain is > > just pure perception, and if we can influence this perception with > > herbals or external sources I guess we are moving qi...? > > > > -JAson > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 6, 2002 Bob, I have a couple of concerns about the discussion of tong1. They may seem exaggerated to some, but I trust that you will appreciate the importance that I place on this as an example of clarification of the meanings of terms. First, as I've said before, I entirely agree with and support the gathering of input from a wide variety of sources as a way of bracketing the meanings of a word and coming up with a full understanding of what terms mean. However, I believe that consensus in term definition is a latter step in a long process, particularly when translation of terms is involved. I want to share with you and the rest of the group here the kind of impact that such discussions can have. I learned recently from Prof. Zhu Jian Ping (who is a vice-director of the China Academy of TCM and Director of the Institute for History of Medicine and Medical Literature that is within that academy) that it was just such a conversation that sparked the current TCM term standardization project into being a few years ago. And it was a conversation with you. You asked him which translation standard he used for translation of traditional medical terminology, and he didn't have a ready answer. Being an altogether thorough person, he began to investigate why that was so, why he had no answer to give to your perfectly reasonable question. This led him to the China Academy of Sciences large-scale term standardization project to find out what was in the works regarding TCM terminology, and he discovered that the project being run in virtually all disciplines of science in China to update and standardize scientific and technical nomenclature had not yet begun its TCM-related work. As he was a natural candidate to do such work, he became the director of the term standardization project for Chinese medicine and has been organizing and running this project ever since. In fact work on the first several thousand terms nears completion and will soon be available for comments on a website. Anyone interested in this project and with reading more can find a couple of articles in the most recent two issues of CAOM. And if anyone wants to have access to the web-based material that is coming soon, please contact me. Asking questions about the meanings of terms, the translation of terms, etc. can have significant results. I've just been home for a day and finally got a chance to pull out a few dictionaries. Here's what I find in the 1978 edition of the Chinese- English Dictionary from the Beijing Foreign Languages Institute under tong1. [i'll just list out the main, numbered meanings of the word and not the example sentences.] 1. open; through 2. open up or clear out by poking or jabbing 3. lead to; to to 4. connect; communicate 5. notify; tell 6. understand; know 7. authority; expert 8. logical; coherent 9. general; common 10. all; whole Indeed one of the things that tong1 comes to mean, largely through extended meaning through association with other words to form compounds, is " flow " as in the common word " tong1 guo4 " , which means to pass through; get past; traverse. This word " tong1 guo4 " might be used to express the idea of electricity passing or flowing through a wire. I looked in the Practical Dictionary, and notice that there it is referred to as " freeing " . The entry that begins on p.226 and continues on p.227 is useful to get a sense of the various terms that refer to to the changes and movement of various parts and substances of the body. And on p. 969 of my 1931 edition of Matthews it lists the following meanings: through; to go through; to succeed; thoroughly; to understand; to be in communication; to circulate. I've already stated my reasoning behind the use of connect as a kind of clinical handle on the meaning, particularly in terms of evaluating and dealing with pain, but to sum it up succinctly: the fact of flow or no flow is of secondary importance to the condition of connection or no connection. If a particular system is properly interconnected, and the potential for the circulation or flow of substances, information, or whatever there is that moves through this system, then there is not likely to be any " pain " . I think it's an important point, and I hope to be able to read your further thoughts on it, which I value much more than the results of a poll. I'm particularly interested in identifying other people who are or who would like to be involved in the work of developing deeper understanding of medical terminology, as I've been given the duty of finding people to participate in an international working group. So I hope others will chime in as well. if you think it inappropriate fare for this list, we now have the translation list where we can follow up. I notice that however we try to differentiate this subject from " clinical issues " it keeps coming back here. Ken > No, Daisy didn't give any reason for her preference in terms of > translation. The question that I asked the various Chinese doctors > I queried was which translation of tong1 they thought was the best or > correct one in terms of the saying tong ze bu tong -- free flow, > connection, or communication. While Daisy acknowledged that tong1 may > mean connection or communication in other contexts, she thought that > was not a good translation in this context. > > I did tell all the Chinese doctors I queried that my question was > stimulated by a discussion on this site and I did include the URL in > case any of them wanted to A) take a look for themselves or B) join in > the discussion. > > Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 6, 2002 , " pemachophel2001 " < pemachophel2001> wrote: This makes me ask the question, is it > possible that, at different doses, a medicinal might have different CM > descriptions? I think this makes perfect sense. Consider the use of bitters in western herbalism. drop doses in alcohol are used to supplement the spleen. Consider goldenseal, which would likely be called a clear heat dry damp herb at full dosage. However, the eclectics described this herb to improve appetite and indicated it for a pale, toothmarked tongue. On the other hand, opiates have their best known astringent effect increase with dosage. this is the tendency to bind up the stool. Pain relief also increases with dosage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 6, 2002 > This makes me ask the question, is it > > possible that, at different doses, a medicinal might have different CM > > descriptions? > > I think this makes perfect sense. Consider the use of bitters in > western herbalism. drop doses in alcohol are used to supplement the > spleen. Consider goldenseal, which would likely be called a clear heat > dry damp herb at full dosage. However, the eclectics described this > herb to improve appetite and indicated it for a pale, toothmarked > tongue. > > On the other hand, opiates have their best known astringent effect > increase with dosage. this is the tendency to bind up the stool. Pain > relief also increases with dosage. I think it's also worth pointing out that herbs grown in different places as well as herbs harvested at different times of the year and in some instances time of day tend to have differing medicinal profiles and descriptions. It's another example of the way in which Chinese medical theory is designed to particularize data in order to facilitate and by means of correlation. Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 7, 2002 Ken, Your story about Prof. Zhu is interesting. Unfortunately, I have no idea who the man is or when/where this conversation took place. Although you feel that asking in-put on this term is not appropriate " at this time " and, I presume, in this venue, I did say I would post any replies which I received. To date, I have received one more reply. This is from Dr. Zhou Ming-ying. Dr. Zhou is from Ningbo and Shanghai and is a graduate of the Shanghai College of CM (now the Shanghai University of CM). During the Cultural Revolution, she studied privately with a very famous old Chinese doctor in Shanghai. Dr. Zhou came to the U.S. in 1984 or 85. She looked me up when she came to Boulder because she knew I had studied at the same school. Since coming to the U.S., Dr. Zhou has specialized in the CM treatment of cancer, mostly gynecological cancers. She does not have any lingusitic credentials. However, she has aculturated herself here in America much better than most Chinese doctors I know, her English is very good compared to most other native Chinese doctors, and she is a very good clinician. (Her practiced has been " closed " for five years or more, with a six month waiting list unless you are a cancer patient). In any case, Dr. Zhou responds that, in terms of the saying, tong ze bu tong, she believes that the translation of free flow is the correct one as opposed to connection or communication. In querying the native speakers I did, my intention was only to get a sense for how such native speakers understood the meaning of the word tong1 in the context of the above saying. Again, if more of the practitioners I queried respond, I will post those responses to this list. Bob , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > Bob, > > I have a couple of concerns about the discussion of > tong1. They may seem exaggerated to some, but I > trust that you will appreciate the importance that > I place on this as an example of clarification of > the meanings of terms. > > First, as I've said before, I entirely agree with > and support the gathering of input from a wide > variety of sources as a way of bracketing the > meanings of a word and coming up with a full > understanding of what terms mean. However, I > believe that consensus in term definition is > a latter step in a long process, particularly > when translation of terms is involved. > > I want to share with you and the rest of the > group here the kind of impact that such discussions > can have. I learned recently from Prof. Zhu Jian > Ping (who is a vice-director of the China Academy > of TCM and Director of the Institute for History > of Medicine and Medical Literature that is within > that academy) that it was just such a conversation > that sparked the current TCM term standardization > project into being a few years ago. And it was > a conversation with you. > > You asked him which translation standard he > used for translation of traditional medical > terminology, and he didn't have a ready answer. > Being an altogether thorough person, he began > to investigate why that was so, why he had > no answer to give to your perfectly reasonable > question. This led him to the China Academy of > Sciences large-scale term standardization project > to find out what was in the works regarding > TCM terminology, and he discovered that the > project being run in virtually all disciplines > of science in China to update and standardize > scientific and technical nomenclature had not > yet begun its TCM-related work. > > As he was a natural candidate to do such work, > he became the director of the term standardization > project for Chinese medicine and has been organizing > and running this project ever since. In fact work > on the first several thousand terms nears completion > and will soon be available for comments on a website. > > Anyone interested in this project and with reading > more can find a couple of articles in the > most recent two issues of CAOM. And if anyone > wants to have access to the web-based material > that is coming soon, please contact me. > > Asking questions about the meanings of terms, > the translation of terms, etc. can have significant > results. > > I've just been home for a day and finally got > a chance to pull out a few dictionaries. Here's > what I find in the 1978 edition of the Chinese- > English Dictionary from the Beijing Foreign > Languages Institute under tong1. [i'll just > list out the main, numbered meanings of the > word and not the example sentences.] > > 1. open; through > 2. open up or clear out by poking or jabbing > 3. lead to; to to > 4. connect; communicate > 5. notify; tell > 6. understand; know > 7. authority; expert > 8. logical; coherent > 9. general; common > 10. all; whole > > > Indeed one of the things that tong1 comes to > mean, largely through extended meaning through > association with other words to form compounds, > is " flow " as in the common word " tong1 guo4 " , > which means to pass through; get past; traverse. > This word " tong1 guo4 " might be used to express > the idea of electricity passing or flowing > through a wire. > > I looked in the Practical Dictionary, and > notice that there it is referred to as " freeing " . > The entry that begins on p.226 and continues > on p.227 is useful to get a sense of the > various terms that refer to to the changes > and movement of various parts and substances > of the body. > > And on p. 969 of my 1931 edition of Matthews > it lists the following meanings: > > through; to go through; to succeed; thoroughly; > to understand; to be in communication; to circulate. > > I've already stated my reasoning behind the > use of connect as a kind of clinical handle > on the meaning, particularly in terms of > evaluating and dealing with pain, but to > sum it up succinctly: the fact of flow or > no flow is of secondary importance to > the condition of connection or no connection. > > If a particular system is properly interconnected, > and the potential for the circulation or flow > of substances, information, or whatever there > is that moves through this system, then there > is not likely to be any " pain " . > > I think it's an important point, and I hope > to be able to read your further thoughts > on it, which I value much more than the results > of a poll. I'm particularly interested in > identifying other people who are or who would > like to be involved in the work of developing > deeper understanding of medical terminology, > as I've been given the duty of finding people > to participate in an international working > group. > > So I hope others will chime in as well. > > if you think it inappropriate fare for > this list, we now have the translation list > where we can follow up. I notice that however > we try to differentiate this subject from > " clinical issues " it keeps coming back here. > > > Ken > > > > No, Daisy didn't give any reason for her preference in terms of > > translation. The question that I asked the various Chinese doctors > > I queried was which translation of tong1 they thought was the best > or > > correct one in terms of the saying tong ze bu tong -- free flow, > > connection, or communication. While Daisy acknowledged that tong1 > may > > mean connection or communication in other contexts, she thought > that > > was not a good translation in this context. > > > > > > I did tell all the Chinese doctors I queried that my question was > > stimulated by a discussion on this site and I did include the URL > in > > case any of them wanted to A) take a look for themselves or B) join > in > > the discussion. > > > > Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 7, 2002 Bob, > Your story about Prof. Zhu is interesting. Unfortunately, I have no > idea who the man is or when/where this conversation took place. Will wonders never cease. I mentioned who Prof. Zhu is in the last post. He's a vice director of the China Academy of TCM and the director of the Institute for the History of Medicine and Medical Literature. He is also director of the term standardization project. He told me that he'd been in touch with you several years ago concerning a proposed book about medical history and it was during the course of this correspondence that you asked him about the translation standard he uses. I don't think there's another Bob Flaws out there, so it had to be you. > > Although you feel that asking in-put on this term is not appropriate > " at this time " and, I presume, in this venue, I did say I would post > any replies which I received. I didn't say it wasn't appropriate. I said I was more interested in what your thoughts are than in the results of your poll. To date, I have received one more reply. > This is from Dr. Zhou Ming-ying. Dr. Zhou is from Ningbo and Shanghai > and is a graduate of the Shanghai College of CM (now the Shanghai > University of CM). During the Cultural Revolution, she studied > privately with a very famous old Chinese doctor in Shanghai. Dr. Zhou > came to the U.S. in 1984 or 85. She looked me up when she came to > Boulder because she knew I had studied at the same school. Since > coming to the U.S., Dr. Zhou has specialized in the CM treatment of > cancer, mostly gynecological cancers. She does not have any lingusitic > credentials. However, she has aculturated herself here in America much > better than most Chinese doctors I know, her English is very good > compared to most other native Chinese doctors, and she is a very good > clinician. (Her practiced has been " closed " for five years or more, > with a six month waiting list unless you are a cancer patient). > > In any case, Dr. Zhou responds that, in terms of the saying, tong ze > bu tong, she believes that the translation of free flow is the correct > one as opposed to connection or communication. > > In querying the native speakers I did, my intention was only to get a > sense for how such native speakers understood the meaning of the word > tong1 in the context of the above saying. > > Again, if more of the practitioners I queried respond, I will post > those responses to this list. > Thank you, Bob. Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 7, 2002 > > 1 > Friday, January 04, 2002 10:29 PM > > Re: Qi regulation > > , " " <@o...> wrote: > > > > > > > Interesting point... something obviously has moved... So if pain is > > just pure perception, and if we can influence this perception with > > herbals or external sources I guess we are moving qi...? > > > given the disparity in pain thresholds between diferent people and > because pain can be changed with mental methods and placebo effect, it > would seem that perception is a major aspect of pain or any sensation. > Since we can only actually experience sx in our consciousness (dead men > feel no pain ...), anything that alters perception must alter qi flow. > this does not mean healing occurs or that this is wholly good. Many > herbs that increase qi and blood flow have side effects and > contraindications. > > Do you think there is a difference in the way some medicinals work, ie. Some just merely changing the perception (i.e. brain, consciosness etc..) and herbs that are actually eliminating the site of pain (or 'the' pain), i.e. a pathological lesion, tumor etc...) - Locally. 2 examples, are these different?. 1) rubbing a analgesic cream on a local site, reducing pain 2) using meditation or a situation stimuli (i.e. audio hypnotic trance) to eliminate the pain. I would think that these mechanisms might be different? Let me further incorporate some of my limited understanding of the Western view of pain and some gate-control theory. (for those who know more, please correct or add) 1) Gate C.T. acknowledges that there is a two way 'flow' of information from not only the (site of pain) to the brain but the brain to the site. 2) Various factors (both noxious and non-noxious) can close the 'gates' to stop the pain. 3) in western medicine, acute pain can be eliminated by either dealing with the site (removal or repair) or symptomatic relief. The later is said (of course) to be just dealing with the patients' experience/perception. Mostly both are used. 4) There seems to be extreme value in understanding where pain might be coming from and categorizing it i.e. respondent vs. operant types of pain. If, for example, a patients chronic pain is more from behavior, social, experience, shouldn't this be treated different than a more physical based respondent pain. Although, obviously, one cannot separate any of these completely, there seems to be definite lines that can be drawn to help clarify treatment modalities. Finally herb choices might apply to these categorizations. IF all that CM says about pain is that there is no free flow (etc), I still say this may be an over simplified approach.. I am still waiting for others to show other CM theories on pain and how that influences tx. Otherwise I find the above considerations extremely useful. 5) WM quite possibly is much more holistic than CM when it comes to evaluating pain, for they integrate very thoroughly social, behavior, physiological (etc) aspects into pain dx and tx in many approaches. This is not to say that these more wholistic approaches are used in the majority of cases, which as we know is not the case, but the approach is there. ? : How do we explain the 35% of patients with pathological pain can obtain relief through placebo medications. As a side note: in reference to alon and bob's discussion, studies have shown anxious people do show higher pain sensation. And meditation etc. has been shown to decrease this. Comments...? - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 7, 2002 As a side note: in reference to alon and bob's discussion, studies haveshown anxious people do show higher pain sensation. And meditation etc.has been shown to decrease this.>>>Or any distraction. Pain is more complex and poorly understood (except for acute pain) than almost any other symptom one might experience, even though it has been studies in depth. To say that pain is just lack of free flow has to be an oversimplification and probably the understatement of the year Alon - Monday, January 07, 2002 10:49 AM RE: Re: Qi regulation > > 1 > Friday, January 04, 2002 10:29 PM> > Re: Qi regulation> > , "" <@o...> wrote:> > >> > > > Interesting point... something obviously has moved... So if pain is> > just pure perception, and if we can influence this perception with> > herbals or external sources I guess we are moving qi...?> > > given the disparity in pain thresholds between diferent people and> because pain can be changed with mental methods and placebo effect, it> would seem that perception is a major aspect of pain or any sensation.> Since we can only actually experience sx in our consciousness (deadmen> feel no pain ...), anything that alters perception must alter qi flow.> this does not mean healing occurs or that this is wholly good. Many> herbs that increase qi and blood flow have side effects and> contraindications.> > Do you think there is a difference in the way some medicinals work, ie.Some just merely changing the perception (i.e. brain, consciosnessetc..) and herbs that are actually eliminating the site of pain (or'the' pain), i.e. a pathological lesion, tumor etc...) - Locally. 2 examples, are these different?.1) rubbing a analgesic cream on a local site, reducing pain2) using meditation or a situation stimuli (i.e. audio hypnotic trance)to eliminate the pain.I would think that these mechanisms might be different?Let me further incorporate some of my limited understanding of theWestern view of pain and some gate-control theory. (for those who knowmore, please correct or add)1) Gate C.T. acknowledges that there is a two way 'flow' of informationfrom not only the (site of pain) to the brain but the brain to the site.2) Various factors (both noxious and non-noxious) can close the 'gates'to stop the pain.3) in western medicine, acute pain can be eliminated by either dealingwith the site (removal or repair) or symptomatic relief. Thelater is said (of course) to be just dealing with the patients'experience/perception. Mostly both are used.4) There seems to be extreme value in understanding where pain might becoming from and categorizing it i.e. respondent vs. operant types ofpain. If, for example, a patients chronic pain is more from behavior,social, experience, shouldn't this be treated different than a morephysical based respondent pain. Although, obviously, one cannotseparate any of these completely, there seems to be definite lines thatcan be drawn to help clarify treatment modalities. Finally herb choicesmight apply to these categorizations. IF all that CM says about pain isthat there is no free flow (etc), I still say this may be an oversimplified approach.. I am still waiting for others to show other CMtheories on pain and how that influences tx. Otherwise I find the aboveconsiderations extremely useful.5) WM quite possibly is much more holistic than CM when it comes toevaluating pain, for they integrate very thoroughly social, behavior,physiological (etc) aspects into pain dx and tx in many approaches.This is not to say that these more wholistic approaches are used in themajority of cases, which as we know is not the case, but the approach isthere.? : How do we explain the 35% of patients with pathological pain canobtain relief through placebo medications.As a side note: in reference to alon and bob's discussion, studies haveshown anxious people do show higher pain sensation. And meditation etc.has been shown to decrease this.Comments...?-Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 8, 2002 Now I remember. Yes, we were trying to publish a history of modern Chinese medicine. It is a shame that project fell through because the ROI just didn't seem promising. Bob , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > Bob, > > > Your story about Prof. Zhu is interesting. Unfortunately, I have no > > idea who the man is or when/where this conversation took place. > > Will wonders never cease. I mentioned who > Prof. Zhu is in the last post. He's a vice > director of the China Academy of TCM > and the director of the Institute for > the History of Medicine and Medical > Literature. He is also director of > the term standardization project. > > He told me that he'd been in touch > with you several years ago concerning > a proposed book about medical history > and it was during the course of this > correspondence that you asked him about > the translation standard he uses. > > I don't think there's another Bob Flaws > out there, so it had to be you. > > > > Although you feel that asking in-put on this term is not > appropriate > > " at this time " and, I presume, in this venue, I did say I would > post > > any replies which I received. > > I didn't say it wasn't appropriate. I said > I was more interested in what your thoughts > are than in the results of your poll. > > To date, I have received one more reply. > > This is from Dr. Zhou Ming-ying. Dr. Zhou is from Ningbo and > Shanghai > > and is a graduate of the Shanghai College of CM (now the Shanghai > > University of CM). During the Cultural Revolution, she studied > > privately with a very famous old Chinese doctor in Shanghai. Dr. > Zhou > > came to the U.S. in 1984 or 85. She looked me up when she came to > > Boulder because she knew I had studied at the same school. Since > > coming to the U.S., Dr. Zhou has specialized in the CM treatment of > > cancer, mostly gynecological cancers. She does not have any > lingusitic > > credentials. However, she has aculturated herself here in America > much > > better than most Chinese doctors I know, her English is very good > > compared to most other native Chinese doctors, and she is a very > good > > clinician. (Her practiced has been " closed " for five years or more, > > with a six month waiting list unless you are a cancer patient). > > > > In any case, Dr. Zhou responds that, in terms of the saying, tong > ze > > bu tong, she believes that the translation of free flow is the > correct > > one as opposed to connection or communication. > > > > In querying the native speakers I did, my intention was only to get > a > > sense for how such native speakers understood the meaning of the > word > > tong1 in the context of the above saying. > > > > Again, if more of the practitioners I queried respond, I will post > > those responses to this list. > > > Thank you, Bob. > > Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 18, 2002 I was writing about pain today and was thinking about the saying if there is no free flow there is pain. How do we explain that for example many patients have tumors, scars, cysts etc that obviously obstruct free flow but may not have any abnormal sensations. Alon - pemachophel2001 Monday, December 31, 2001 11:48 AM Re: Qi regulation Alon,I think your response begs the question. It certainly does not give an answer in terms of CM theory. So let me try to think this through using CM theory.Sensitivity is one of the functions of the spirit brilliance and the spirit brilliance is nothing other than a collection of yang qi. In my experience, people who are more sensitive to pain are those whose yang qi stirs more easily than others. Those with a more easily stirred spirit qi are those who either 1) have less yin-blood to control their yang qi, 2) have more heat stirring the qi, or 3) have less qi constructing their spirit. This last possibility seems perhaps somewhat counterintuitive. If one has less qi, shouldn't that qi stir less? However, restlessness of the heart spirit and anxiety and fear can be caused by nonconstruction and malnourishment of the heart spirit.In my experience as an acupuncturist, many people who are more than ordinarily sensitive to pain have a combination of heat plus nonconstruction and malnourishment. Especially vacuity heat tends to be associated with hypersensitivity. Again in my experience, very robust patients with a lot of qi and a lot of blood accompanied by a lot of phlegm turbidity tend to be less sensitive to pain.Whether these thoughts are correct or not, I would, nevertheless, invite people to really try to think with CM theory.Bob , "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> Qi regulationHow do we explain 2 people with the same injury, one is screaming with their pain 9 of 10, another feels nothing. > >>>Well su wen says if heart is peaceful all pain is negligible. So we have accounts for this in both modern biomed and CM> Alon> - > > traditional chinese herbs > Sunday, December 30, 2001 2:08 PM> Qi regulation> > > B.Flaws (?) said something in the Benadryl discussions like: Benadryl must have a qi regulating effect due to its ability to eliminate pain. (Correct me if I'm wrong, I can't find the post). It seems, though, that many peoples' beliefs are very close to this- 'If a medicinal stops pain it MUST regulate qi/ xue'. I question this (I am not saying Benadryl does not reg qi). What I wonder about are substances or (processes) that might just interfere with the nervous system/ receptor sites (or whatever) and just block a sensation of the pain, but not actually move any qi at all. The pain or pathological process/ lesion can be completely unchanged but one's perception might instantly change due to administration of i.e. morphine (or something similar) Is the qi being moved? If Qi is being moved, thus preventing the pain, shouldn't the person show signs of healing in that area? Obviously when powerful drugs wear off many times nothing has changed, and they are at square one. If all this is true, understanding herbs in this way that eliminate pain/ (move qi/xue) would be very worthwhile. IS a given herb actually moving qi, as traditional thought might suggest, or just masking some sensation. Yan hu suo might fall into the latter category. So where there is pain there is stagnation, but can we backwards travel and say if pain ceases then qi/xue must have moved. I am not sure. We probably will have to discuss the nature of pain.. > > One might question how accurate a gauge pain is to determine the degree of stagnation. How do we explain 2 people with the same injury, one is screaming with their pain 9 of 10, another feels nothing. This might be important due to our current trend of attributing many chronic and aging diseases to stagnation. IS the notion of "where there is pain, there is stagnation" an oversimplified statement? What does this really mean? And when we eliminate pain what have we really done?> > Comments?> > -> > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 19, 2002 Alon, > I was writing about pain today and was thinking about the saying if there is no free flow there is pain. How do we explain that for example many patients have tumors, scars, cysts etc that obviously obstruct free flow but may not have any abnormal sensations. A couple of points to bear in mind, both about this old saying and about theory in general. First, trying to explain the absence of pain with a theory about pain doesn't necessarily work. The human body is a complex system in normal conditions. Abnormalities tend to increase the randomness, reduce the order and make for even more complex conditions. When we deal with pain we're dealing with individuals' feelings about these complex conditions of their complex organisms and, well, it gets pretty complex. Absence of pain can be the result of no free flow or of no connection or communication between parts of the organism involved. Or it can simply be a feature of a particular individual's condition. In general in my experience in the clinic, those patients who present with " no feeling " whether it is no feeling of pain or simply no feeling...period, tend to be in worse shape than those who report pains and sensations. This is particularly true of those who experience neither pain nor sensation when relevant points are palpated and/or stimulated. Sometimes the lack of sensation, pain, etc. results from the patient's qi4 being so vacuous that there is simply not enough to operate the body's systems. In general, Chinese medical theory does not work well to explain conditions. Rather the concepts are methods which either provide entry and a way to deal with the patient's condition...or they don't. One of the lessons I was taught over and over by doctors in China is that whenever a theory doesn't fit the case, use another theory that does. There is little to be gained by wrestling with theories in order to try and get them to adapt to situations for which they are not appropriate. Of course, this is complicated even further when an individual's grasp of the theoretical tools is inadequate, which is why emphasis is placed in education on theory at all, so that we come to understand when to use a given theory and when not to. Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 19, 2002 Alon: From the Dong Han perspective, in order to have a symptom there must be a significant contrast in the qi flow of the system to create it. If the tumor, cyst, etc. may not create enough contrast to raise it to being a conscious symptom. For example, when people do athletics and increase their qi flow, many pains will disappear; but return after athletics when the body normalizes. And then there is the nervous system's adaptive nature of adapting to and tuning out too much redundency. In this latter case, from the point of view of CM, we can say that normal qi flow in the mind requires novelty. If the mind were aware of everything going on in the body, it would go insane. But, often, we can see the tumor, scar, or cyst in the pulses before it becomes a symptom---which is why the Mai Jing gives priority to pulses over symptoms. You need to verify everything the patient tells you with the pulses. Jim Ramholz , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > I was writing about pain today and was thinking about the saying if there is no free flow there is pain. How do we explain that for example many patients have tumors, scars, cysts etc that obviously obstruct free flow but may not have any abnormal sensations. > Alon > - > pemachophel2001 > > Monday, December 31, 2001 11:48 AM > Re: Qi regulation > > > Alon, > > I think your response begs the question. It certainly does not give an > answer in terms of CM theory. So let me try to think this through > using CM theory. > > Sensitivity is one of the functions of the spirit brilliance and the > spirit brilliance is nothing other than a collection of yang qi. In my > experience, people who are more sensitive to pain are those whose yang > qi stirs more easily than others. Those with a more easily stirred > spirit qi are those who either 1) have less yin-blood to control their > yang qi, 2) have more heat stirring the qi, or 3) have less qi > constructing their spirit. > > This last possibility seems perhaps somewhat counterintuitive. If one > has less qi, shouldn't that qi stir less? However, restlessness of the > heart spirit and anxiety and fear can be caused by nonconstruction and > malnourishment of the heart spirit. > > In my experience as an acupuncturist, many people who are more than > ordinarily sensitive to pain have a combination of heat plus > nonconstruction and malnourishment. Especially vacuity heat tends to > be associated with hypersensitivity. Again in my experience, very > robust patients with a lot of qi and a lot of blood accompanied by a > lot of phlegm turbidity tend to be less sensitive to pain. > > Whether these thoughts are correct or not, I would, nevertheless, > invite people to really try to think with CM theory. > > Bob > > , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote: > > Qi regulationHow do we explain 2 people with the same injury, one is > screaming with their pain 9 of 10, another feels nothing. > > >>>Well su wen says if heart is peaceful all pain is negligible. > So we have accounts for this in both modern biomed and CM > > Alon > > - > > > > traditional chinese herbs > > Sunday, December 30, 2001 2:08 PM > > Qi regulation > > > > > > B.Flaws (?) said something in the Benadryl discussions like: > Benadryl must have a qi regulating effect due to its ability to > eliminate pain. (Correct me if I'm wrong, I can't find the post). It > seems, though, that many peoples' beliefs are very close to this- 'If > a medicinal stops pain it MUST regulate qi/ xue'. I question this (I > am not saying Benadryl does not reg qi). What I wonder about are > substances or (processes) that might just interfere with the nervous > system/ receptor sites (or whatever) and just block a sensation of the > pain, but not actually move any qi at all. The pain or pathological > process/ lesion can be completely unchanged but one's perception might > instantly change due to administration of i.e. morphine (or something > similar) Is the qi being moved? If Qi is being moved, thus preventing > the pain, shouldn't the person show signs of healing in that area? > Obviously when powerful drugs wear off many times nothing has changed, > and they are at square one. If all this is true, understanding herbs > in this way that eliminate pain/ (move qi/xue) would be very > worthwhile. IS a given herb actually moving qi, as traditional > thought might suggest, or just masking some sensation. Yan hu suo > might fall into the latter category. So where there is pain there is > stagnation, but can we backwards travel and say if pain ceases then > qi/xue must have moved. I am not sure. We probably will have to > discuss the nature of pain.. > > > > One might question how accurate a gauge pain is to > determine the degree of stagnation. How do we explain 2 people with > the same injury, one is screaming with their pain 9 of 10, another > feels nothing. This might be important due to our current trend of > attributing many chronic and aging diseases to stagnation. IS the > notion of " where there is pain, there is stagnation " an oversimplified > statement? What does this really mean? And when we eliminate pain > what have we really done? > > > > Comments? > > > > - > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 19, 2002 First, trying to explain the absenceof pain with a theory about paindoesn't necessarily work. The human bodyis a complex system in normal conditions.>>>>>That is my point Alon - dragon90405 Saturday, January 19, 2002 10:28 AM Re: Qi regulation Alon,> I was writing about pain today and was thinking about the saying if there is no free flow there is pain. How do we explain that for example many patients have tumors, scars, cysts etc that obviously obstruct free flow but may not have any abnormal sensations.A couple of points to bear in mind,both about this old saying and abouttheory in general.First, trying to explain the absenceof pain with a theory about paindoesn't necessarily work. The human bodyis a complex system in normal conditions.Abnormalities tend to increase therandomness, reduce the order andmake for even more complex conditions.When we deal with pain we're dealingwith individuals' feelings aboutthese complex conditions of theircomplex organisms and, well, itgets pretty complex. Absence ofpain can be the result of nofree flow or of no connection orcommunication between parts ofthe organism involved. Or it cansimply be a feature of a particularindividual's condition.In general in my experience in theclinic, those patients who presentwith "no feeling" whether it isno feeling of pain or simply nofeeling...period, tend to be inworse shape than those who reportpains and sensations. This is particularlytrue of those who experience neitherpain nor sensation when relevant pointsare palpated and/or stimulated.Sometimes the lack of sensation, pain, etc.results from the patient's qi4 beingso vacuous that there is simply notenough to operate the body's systems.In general, Chinese medical theorydoes not work well to explain conditions.Rather the concepts are methods whicheither provide entry and a way to dealwith the patient's condition...or they don't. One of the lessons I was taught over and over by doctors in China is that whenever a theory doesn't fit the case, use another theory that does.There is little to be gained bywrestling with theories in order to try and get them to adapt tosituations for which they are notappropriate. Of course, this iscomplicated even further when anindividual's grasp of the theoreticaltools is inadequate, which is whyemphasis is placed in educationon theory at all, so that we come to understand when to use a given theory and when not to.KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 19, 2002 In general, Chinese medical theorydoes not work well to explain conditions.Rather the concepts are methods whicheither provide entry and a way to dealwith the patient's condition...or they don't. One of the lessons I was taught over and over by doctors in China is that whenever a theory doesn't fit the case, use another theory that does.>>>>>Well what are other theories on pain? Since lack of free flow or connection is suppose to result in pain and you see many people for example with lipomas that do not have pain than we need to look for another theory. Or come up with a new one Alon - dragon90405 Saturday, January 19, 2002 10:28 AM Re: Qi regulation Alon,> I was writing about pain today and was thinking about the saying if there is no free flow there is pain. How do we explain that for example many patients have tumors, scars, cysts etc that obviously obstruct free flow but may not have any abnormal sensations.A couple of points to bear in mind,both about this old saying and abouttheory in general.First, trying to explain the absenceof pain with a theory about paindoesn't necessarily work. The human bodyis a complex system in normal conditions.Abnormalities tend to increase therandomness, reduce the order andmake for even more complex conditions.When we deal with pain we're dealingwith individuals' feelings aboutthese complex conditions of theircomplex organisms and, well, itgets pretty complex. Absence ofpain can be the result of nofree flow or of no connection orcommunication between parts ofthe organism involved. Or it cansimply be a feature of a particularindividual's condition.In general in my experience in theclinic, those patients who presentwith "no feeling" whether it isno feeling of pain or simply nofeeling...period, tend to be inworse shape than those who reportpains and sensations. This is particularlytrue of those who experience neitherpain nor sensation when relevant pointsare palpated and/or stimulated.Sometimes the lack of sensation, pain, etc.results from the patient's qi4 beingso vacuous that there is simply notenough to operate the body's systems.In general, Chinese medical theorydoes not work well to explain conditions.Rather the concepts are methods whicheither provide entry and a way to dealwith the patient's condition...or they don't. One of the lessons I was taught over and over by doctors in China is that whenever a theory doesn't fit the case, use another theory that does.There is little to be gained bywrestling with theories in order to try and get them to adapt tosituations for which they are notappropriate. Of course, this iscomplicated even further when anindividual's grasp of the theoreticaltools is inadequate, which is whyemphasis is placed in educationon theory at all, so that we come to understand when to use a given theory and when not to.KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 19, 2002 From the Dong Han perspective, in order to have a symptom there must be a significant contrast in the qi flow of the system to create it. If the tumor, cyst, etc. may not create enough contrast to raise it to being a conscious symptom. >>>From a biomedicine perspective we have no problem explaining this my question is about "if there is no free flow there is pain." Stress analgesia or what athletics go through is well known and does not need activity, severe fear anxiety can do the same. Such as seen in accidents. Probably to allow one to seek help Alon - jramholz Saturday, January 19, 2002 11:45 AM Re: Qi regulation Alon:From the Dong Han perspective, in order to have a symptom there must be a significant contrast in the qi flow of the system to create it. If the tumor, cyst, etc. may not create enough contrast to raise it to being a conscious symptom. For example, when people do athletics and increase their qi flow, many pains will disappear; but return after athletics when the body normalizes.And then there is the nervous system's adaptive nature of adapting to and tuning out too much redundency. In this latter case, from the point of view of CM, we can say that normal qi flow in the mind requires novelty.If the mind were aware of everything going on in the body, it would go insane. But, often, we can see the tumor, scar, or cyst in the pulses before it becomes a symptom---which is why the Mai Jing gives priority to pulses over symptoms. You need to verify everything the patient tells you with the pulses.Jim Ramholz, "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> I was writing about pain today and was thinking about the saying if there is no free flow there is pain. How do we explain that for example many patients have tumors, scars, cysts etc that obviously obstruct free flow but may not have any abnormal sensations.> Alon> - > pemachophel2001 > > Monday, December 31, 2001 11:48 AM> Re: Qi regulation> > > Alon,> > I think your response begs the question. It certainly does not give an > answer in terms of CM theory. So let me try to think this through > using CM theory.> > Sensitivity is one of the functions of the spirit brilliance and the > spirit brilliance is nothing other than a collection of yang qi. In my > experience, people who are more sensitive to pain are those whose yang > qi stirs more easily than others. Those with a more easily stirred > spirit qi are those who either 1) have less yin-blood to control their > yang qi, 2) have more heat stirring the qi, or 3) have less qi > constructing their spirit. > > This last possibility seems perhaps somewhat counterintuitive. If one > has less qi, shouldn't that qi stir less? However, restlessness of the > heart spirit and anxiety and fear can be caused by nonconstruction and > malnourishment of the heart spirit.> > In my experience as an acupuncturist, many people who are more than > ordinarily sensitive to pain have a combination of heat plus > nonconstruction and malnourishment. Especially vacuity heat tends to > be associated with hypersensitivity. Again in my experience, very > robust patients with a lot of qi and a lot of blood accompanied by a > lot of phlegm turbidity tend to be less sensitive to pain.> > Whether these thoughts are correct or not, I would, nevertheless, > invite people to really try to think with CM theory.> > Bob > > , "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote:> > Qi regulationHow do we explain 2 people with the same injury, one is > screaming with their pain 9 of 10, another feels nothing. > > >>>Well su wen says if heart is peaceful all pain is negligible. > So we have accounts for this in both modern biomed and CM> > Alon> > - > > > > traditional chinese herbs > > Sunday, December 30, 2001 2:08 PM> > Qi regulation> > > > > > B.Flaws (?) said something in the Benadryl discussions like: > Benadryl must have a qi regulating effect due to its ability to > eliminate pain. (Correct me if I'm wrong, I can't find the post). It > seems, though, that many peoples' beliefs are very close to this- 'If > a medicinal stops pain it MUST regulate qi/ xue'. I question this (I > am not saying Benadryl does not reg qi). What I wonder about are > substances or (processes) that might just interfere with the nervous > system/ receptor sites (or whatever) and just block a sensation of the > pain, but not actually move any qi at all. The pain or pathological > process/ lesion can be completely unchanged but one's perception might > instantly change due to administration of i.e. morphine (or something > similar) Is the qi being moved? If Qi is being moved, thus preventing > the pain, shouldn't the person show signs of healing in that area? > Obviously when powerful drugs wear off many times nothing has changed, > and they are at square one. If all this is true, understanding herbs > in this way that eliminate pain/ (move qi/xue) would be very > worthwhile. IS a given herb actually moving qi, as traditional > thought might suggest, or just masking some sensation. Yan hu suo > might fall into the latter category. So where there is pain there is > stagnation, but can we backwards travel and say if pain ceases then > qi/xue must have moved. I am not sure. We probably will have to > discuss the nature of pain.. > > > > One might question how accurate a gauge pain is to > determine the degree of stagnation. How do we explain 2 people with > the same injury, one is screaming with their pain 9 of 10, another > feels nothing. This might be important due to our current trend of > attributing many chronic and aging diseases to stagnation. IS the > notion of "where there is pain, there is stagnation" an oversimplified > statement? What does this really mean? And when we eliminate pain > what have we really done?> > > > Comments?> > > > -> > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 19, 2002 Alon, > >>>>>Well what are other theories on pain? Since lack of free flow or connection is suppose to result in pain and you see many people for example with lipomas that do not have pain than we need to look for another theory. Or come up with a new one In fear and trembling I mention that this is what I was getting at back before the last series of salvos about the word tong1 were launched. But it's too late to turn back now. The old saying is not really a theory. It's an old saying. It embodies a number of theoretical suppositions. One of them is that a lack of free flow leads to pain. Another is that a lack of connection leads to pain. Another is that a lack of communication leads to pain. Another is that a lack of thoroughness leads to pain. The word tong1 includes all of these theoretical possibilities that can be applied to the assessment of pain. You asked what do we gain from the study of a character? There's an example. If you study characters used in medical terms well, you come to understand that each might contain a number of theoretical potentials. In order to proceed in the direction of your original question you'll have to either present a specific case or develop a detailed hypothetical one so that there is something about which you can come to theoretical conclusions. Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 19, 2002 , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > Alon, > > > >>>>>Well what are other theories on pain? Since lack of free flow > or connection is suppose to result in pain and you see many people > for example with lipomas that do not have pain than we need to look > for another theory. Or come up with a new one Is it that lack of freeflow leads to pain or that pain is due to lack of freeflow. These two statements do not actually say the same thing. The first statement implies lack of freeflow will always cause pain. the second explains pain by lack of freeflow, but does not exclude lack of freeflow from existing without pain. It is like saying that microorganisms cause infections or infection is caused by microorganisms. So while all infections are caused by microorganisms, the mere presence of microorganisms does not necessarily lead to infection. Is my analogy correct? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 19, 2002 - You asked what do we gain from thestudy of a character? There's anexample. If you study characters usedin medical terms well, you cometo understand that each might containa number of theoretical potentials. >>>>>>Purhaps your right but why is it always referred to as the lack of flow? Like I said before the lack of connection jives better with biomedical knowlage. I would like to have a little more discusion on the practical uses of these other terms and can you also quate or reffer to other writing on the subject as far as pain. Thanks Alon dragon90405 Saturday, January 19, 2002 3:08 PM Re: Qi regulation Alon,> >>>>>Well what are other theories on pain? Since lack of free flow or connection is suppose to result in pain and you see many people for example with lipomas that do not have pain than we need to look for another theory. Or come up with a new oneIn fear and trembling I mention thatthis is what I was getting at backbefore the last series of salvosabout the word tong1 were launched.But it's too late to turn back now.The old saying is not really a theory.It's an old saying. It embodies a number of theoretical suppositions.One of them is that a lack of freeflow leads to pain. Another is thata lack of connection leads to pain.Another is that a lack of communicationleads to pain. Another is that a lackof thoroughness leads to pain.The word tong1 includes all of thesetheoretical possibilities that canbe applied to the assessment of pain.You asked what do we gain from thestudy of a character? There's anexample. If you study characters usedin medical terms well, you cometo understand that each might containa number of theoretical potentials.In order to proceed in the directionof your original question you'llhave to either present a specificcase or develop a detailed hypotheticalone so that there is something aboutwhich you can come to theoretical conclusions.KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 19, 2002 The first statement implies lack of freeflow will always cause pain. the second explains pain by lack of freeflow, but does not exclude lack of freeflow from existing without pain >>>>I have thought of that. But do we in TCM have other major principles as far as pain? obviously the mind plays a role as su wen says when the heart is peaceful any pain is negligible. But what else do we have as far as pain theories. Alon - 1 Saturday, January 19, 2002 4:17 PM Re: Qi regulation , "dragon90405" <yulong@m...> wrote:> Alon,> > > >>>>>Well what are other theories on pain? Since lack of free flow > or connection is suppose to result in pain and you see many people > for example with lipomas that do not have pain than we need to look > for another theory. Or come up with a new oneIs it that lack of freeflow leads to pain or that pain is due to lack of freeflow. These two statements do not actually say the same thing. The first statement implies lack of freeflow will always cause pain. the second explains pain by lack of freeflow, but does not exclude lack of freeflow from existing without pain. It is like saying that microorganisms cause infections or infection is caused by microorganisms. So while all infections are caused by microorganisms, the mere presence of microorganisms does not necessarily lead to infection. Is my analogy correct?ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
