Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 Kim, The issue of cost analysis for the FPD was presented previously and did not any show significant increase, in fact, it would be far cheaper then doing both a MS and DAOM. The issue of cheaper programs is now being addressed by SIOM and their new creation of a public health acupuncture-only program. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > Chinese Medicine > kuangguiyu > Sun, 25 Apr 2010 15:22:00 -0700 > Re: Re: Degrees > > JP - > > You said, " Whether one does just the acupuncture training, or goes on for > the Masters > or doctoral programs, it's difficult to earn a living in the field in > many states. " > > That's one of many excellent points. The FPD would almost certainly add a > lot of expense to the educational process and make it even more difficult > for many to succeed in practice. The end result might well be more > out-of-work acupuncturists carrying even higher levels of debt. > > IMO a logical way to address the education dilemma would be to: > > a). have a RIGOROUS, AFFORDABLE two year Master's degree in acupuncture. > (This should be easy to structure by removing some of the bloat from > current programs.) > > b). have a RIGOROUS, AFFORDABLE three year MS in acupuncture and herbology. > > c). continue the already extant DAOM for those who wish to specialize or > focus on research. > > I feel that the profession would benefit merely from having more successful > graduates out there making a living and demonstrating to even more people > the effectiveness of our medicine. And if it's possible to become > affordably " street-legal " , then it follows that it would make it easier for > more of these grads to become successful and continue to afford further > training should they so desire. > > I know the schools are concerned about the bottom line, but more affordable > training should translate into more students. > > Kim > > > > On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 11:47 AM, kurvenal <kurvenal wrote: > > > > > > > In some states, it's not even possible to become a licensed acupuncturist. > > > > In many states, mine included, a Masters degree is NOT a requirement for > > licensing, so we don't even have a Masters degree entry level yet. > > > > Considering that the scope of practice in my state, as well as other > > states, > > consists of only acupuncture, (herbs are not in scope, let alone being a > > primary care provider), it seems like the Masters level as an entry level > > would be an over-kill. MDs and chiros can needle clients with far fewer > > hours of training in acupuncture, and they are far more likely to be able > > to > > get insurance reimbursement for clients. More hours of schooling won't > > correct this. This is a political battle, and if no one is swayed by the > > Masters degree, why will a FPD suddenly make the public aware that the MD > > or > > chiro has little training, vs. the thousands of hours of training that I > > have? The public is unaware of the difference in training, and there isn't > > likely to be a change in legal status that corrects this in our favor. > > > > I can't get malpractice insurance for using herbs, since it's not in scope > > of practice. I love working with herbs, and feel that they're not only > > valuable, but often critical. But, without malpractice insurance, I'm > > taking > > a signficant risk when I prescibe them for clients. The FPD won't change > > this. > > > > The quality of classes for the Masters degree no doubt varies from school > > to > > school, but from what I've seen, can be poor. (I have a MSOM.) Why is > > adding > > more poor quality schooling a good idea? Why not provide a better education > > > > for the classes that are currently being taken? > > > > Do other Masters level programs allow people to flunk exams, retake the > > same > > exam, and then pass? Why can people get clinic credit when someone else > > does > > the work? (Both of these were common at my school.) There are so many > > problems with the current training that it seems like that should be > > cleaned > > up first, before requiring more money and time to be spent to achieve a > > FPD. > > > > Whether one does just the acupuncture training, or goes on for the Masters > > or doctoral programs, it's difficult to earn a living in the field in many > > states. It sounds like in some states, (with a broader scope of practice, > > perhaps?), people do well, but I don't know many people in my area who stay > > > > within the law, (i.e. no insurance fraud, staying within bounds of our > > training. etc.), who have high levels of income from acupuncture. Should > > people be required to spend even more money, and go further into debt, to > > struggle to make a living? > > > > We all take CEU classes, (both for required credits, and, hopefully, for > > our > > continued learning), and have the opportunity to enhance our learning, > > focusing on the areas that will most benefit our own particular pratices. > > For those who want the doctoral title, they have the opportunity to pursue > > that. I don't see the benefit of requiring the FPD, especially considering > > the poor quality of current classes, the limited scope of practice that > > many > > of us have, MDs and chiros being able to do what we do with so little > > training, and the current state of the economy. > > > > JP > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 Joe, It sounds like you are generalizing that all OM schools are teaching poorly across the board. I know this is not the case, as I have worked at two different TCM programs following graduation from another. You might also want to consider what Zev has undertaken in the DAOM program in San Diego. This is a lot more education at a higher level with these classics. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine joe.messey Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:10:15 -0700 Re: Re: Degrees Mike Bowser said So why not clean it up and repackage it as a FPD, which is what we all think it is? Joe sez: hold on there buddy, I agree with much of what you say but you are over-generalizing. My colleagues and I think that what we earn is only a BS and it's a joke to call it a MS! Many students have only 2 years of general ed going into school and what little they think they know about CM and yinyang and 5 elements is just plain wrong! Better schools Better students more rigor 10X more patients how many graduates can locate all of the points correctly? few how many graduates know all of the herbs in all of the formulas? few most schools are teaching " 4 gates " and xiao yao san nah, the education has a long, long way to go before people are " doctors " of anything " clean it up " - totally! But there is much scrubbing ahead of us so get out the Brillo pads Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 Cuz most of us our on the outside looking in. Schools do not always listen to us. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine magisterium_magnum Fri, 23 Apr 2010 14:32:28 -0700 Fw: Re: Degrees Everyone knows this is how it should be. So why can't we get it done? - " Donald Snow " <don83407 <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Friday, April 23, 2010 11:56 AM RE: Re: Degrees > > I second the motion. That is exactly what needs to be done. Tighten and > change the current curriculum without exceeding the 4000-4200 total hour > range, and let it be the new OMD/DAOM/or whatever you want to call it FPD. > This would be a nice, sweet, unencumbered package. > > > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > >> Chinese Traditional Medicine >> naturaldoc1 >> Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:51:07 +0000 >> RE: Re: Degrees >> >> >> So why not clean it up and repackage it as a FPD, which is what we all >> think it is? Let's be honest with ourselves. >> >> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc >> >> >> Chinese Medicine >> magisterium_magnum >> Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:18:18 -0700 >> Re: Re: Degrees>> Call it whatever you want. A 6 year >> Master's Degree is baloney. Even if >> >> you look at it as a 4 year Masters Degree. >> >> The FACT of the matter is that it should be a doctorate, and everybody >> knows >> >> it. _______________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en\ -US:WM_HMP:042010_1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 Most graduates have never owned or managed a business prior to entering OM school. There is little practice mgmt or marketing, so we are bound to see high failure levels. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > Chinese Medicine > kuangguiyu > Sun, 25 Apr 2010 15:22:00 -0700 > Re: Re: Degrees > > JP - > > You said, " Whether one does just the acupuncture training, or goes on for > the Masters > or doctoral programs, it's difficult to earn a living in the field in > many states. " > > That's one of many excellent points. The FPD would almost certainly add a > lot of expense to the educational process and make it even more difficult > for many to succeed in practice. The end result might well be more > out-of-work acupuncturists carrying even higher levels of debt. > > IMO a logical way to address the education dilemma would be to: > > a). have a RIGOROUS, AFFORDABLE two year Master's degree in acupuncture. > (This should be easy to structure by removing some of the bloat from > current programs.) > > b). have a RIGOROUS, AFFORDABLE three year MS in acupuncture and herbology. > > c). continue the already extant DAOM for those who wish to specialize or > focus on research. > > I feel that the profession would benefit merely from having more successful > graduates out there making a living and demonstrating to even more people > the effectiveness of our medicine. And if it's possible to become > affordably " street-legal " , then it follows that it would make it easier for > more of these grads to become successful and continue to afford further > training should they so desire. > > I know the schools are concerned about the bottom line, but more affordable > training should translate into more students. > > Kim > > > > On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 11:47 AM, kurvenal <kurvenal wrote: > > > > > > > In some states, it's not even possible to become a licensed acupuncturist. > > > > In many states, mine included, a Masters degree is NOT a requirement for > > licensing, so we don't even have a Masters degree entry level yet. > > > > Considering that the scope of practice in my state, as well as other > > states, > > consists of only acupuncture, (herbs are not in scope, let alone being a > > primary care provider), it seems like the Masters level as an entry level > > would be an over-kill. MDs and chiros can needle clients with far fewer > > hours of training in acupuncture, and they are far more likely to be able > > to > > get insurance reimbursement for clients. More hours of schooling won't > > correct this. This is a political battle, and if no one is swayed by the > > Masters degree, why will a FPD suddenly make the public aware that the MD > > or > > chiro has little training, vs. the thousands of hours of training that I > > have? The public is unaware of the difference in training, and there isn't > > likely to be a change in legal status that corrects this in our favor. > > > > I can't get malpractice insurance for using herbs, since it's not in scope > > of practice. I love working with herbs, and feel that they're not only > > valuable, but often critical. But, without malpractice insurance, I'm > > taking > > a signficant risk when I prescibe them for clients. The FPD won't change > > this. > > > > The quality of classes for the Masters degree no doubt varies from school > > to > > school, but from what I've seen, can be poor. (I have a MSOM.) Why is > > adding > > more poor quality schooling a good idea? Why not provide a better education > > > > for the classes that are currently being taken? > > > > Do other Masters level programs allow people to flunk exams, retake the > > same > > exam, and then pass? Why can people get clinic credit when someone else > > does > > the work? (Both of these were common at my school.) There are so many > > problems with the current training that it seems like that should be > > cleaned > > up first, before requiring more money and time to be spent to achieve a > > FPD. > > > > Whether one does just the acupuncture training, or goes on for the Masters > > or doctoral programs, it's difficult to earn a living in the field in many > > states. It sounds like in some states, (with a broader scope of practice, > > perhaps?), people do well, but I don't know many people in my area who stay > > > > within the law, (i.e. no insurance fraud, staying within bounds of our > > training. etc.), who have high levels of income from acupuncture. Should > > people be required to spend even more money, and go further into debt, to > > struggle to make a living? > > > > We all take CEU classes, (both for required credits, and, hopefully, for > > our > > continued learning), and have the opportunity to enhance our learning, > > focusing on the areas that will most benefit our own particular pratices. > > For those who want the doctoral title, they have the opportunity to pursue > > that. I don't see the benefit of requiring the FPD, especially considering > > the poor quality of current classes, the limited scope of practice that > > many > > of us have, MDs and chiros being able to do what we do with so little > > training, and the current state of the economy. > > > > JP > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 Mike said: It sounds like you are generalizing that all OM schools are teaching poorly across the board. Joe sez: sorry - I may be overgeneralizing ALL schools have problems all of them have strengths 1/2 the classes are mediocre to painful 1/2 the classes are good to great a big part of it is that too much is based on didactic training (50-50 see above) and this medicine must be learned by seeing 1000s of patients - not from a book/lecture Mike said: You might also want to consider what Zev has undertaken in the DAOM program in San Diego Joe sez I have looked at DAOM programs - some are better than others, for sure. None have enough clinic (in my opinion) With all due respect to any program and anyone's involvement in a program - we, as an industry have a long, long way to go that is why these discussions are good and important I agree with you and John that the general public will have much greater respect for us when we can call ourselves " doctor " . We should be educated as doctors and carry the title - just I think the education is a far cry from being a doctor. What if someone tried to get through Med school without having taken a single course in life-sciences? Who has taken any real course in any Chinese medicine before entering TCM school? Final point I have spoken with a number of people involved in the transition in Cali to MSTCM years ago. The requirement for entry was 60 units (basically an Associates or covering general ed) Most of the programs at that time were 3 years (many still are) The first 2 years was supposed to bring someone to a level of BS in TCM (might be good to award it as such) the 3rd year was the MS portion since nobody going into the program has/had any background in TCM when entering the schools, this model still might apply (although my colleagues and I still think that we aren't nearly as educated as a person in China who has a BS in TCM) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 Mike - I'm sure there's a degree of truth to that - and it's an area that needs addressing in a big way - but it's a lot easier to stay afloat while dealing with a 35-50K note than a 95K+ note. Kim On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 4:55 PM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1wrote: > > > > Most graduates have never owned or managed a business prior to entering OM > school. There is little practice mgmt or marketing, so we are bound to see > high failure levels. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > > kuangguiyu <kuangguiyu%40gmail.com> > > Sun, 25 Apr 2010 15:22:00 -0700 > > Re: Re: Degrees > > > > JP - > > > > You said, " Whether one does just the acupuncture training, or goes on for > > the Masters > > or doctoral programs, it's difficult to earn a living in the field in > > many states. " > > > > That's one of many excellent points. The FPD would almost certainly add a > > lot of expense to the educational process and make it even more difficult > > for many to succeed in practice. The end result might well be more > > out-of-work acupuncturists carrying even higher levels of debt. > > > > IMO a logical way to address the education dilemma would be to: > > > > a). have a RIGOROUS, AFFORDABLE two year Master's degree in acupuncture. > > (This should be easy to structure by removing some of the bloat from > > current programs.) > > > > b). have a RIGOROUS, AFFORDABLE three year MS in acupuncture and > herbology. > > > > c). continue the already extant DAOM for those who wish to specialize or > > focus on research. > > > > I feel that the profession would benefit merely from having more > successful > > graduates out there making a living and demonstrating to even more people > > the effectiveness of our medicine. And if it's possible to become > > affordably " street-legal " , then it follows that it would make it easier > for > > more of these grads to become successful and continue to afford further > > training should they so desire. > > > > I know the schools are concerned about the bottom line, but more > affordable > > training should translate into more students. > > > > Kim > > > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 11:47 AM, kurvenal <kurvenal<kurvenal%40ameritech.net>> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > In some states, it's not even possible to become a licensed > acupuncturist. > > > > > > In many states, mine included, a Masters degree is NOT a requirement > for > > > licensing, so we don't even have a Masters degree entry level yet. > > > > > > Considering that the scope of practice in my state, as well as other > > > states, > > > consists of only acupuncture, (herbs are not in scope, let alone being > a > > > primary care provider), it seems like the Masters level as an entry > level > > > would be an over-kill. MDs and chiros can needle clients with far fewer > > > hours of training in acupuncture, and they are far more likely to be > able > > > to > > > get insurance reimbursement for clients. More hours of schooling won't > > > correct this. This is a political battle, and if no one is swayed by > the > > > Masters degree, why will a FPD suddenly make the public aware that the > MD > > > or > > > chiro has little training, vs. the thousands of hours of training that > I > > > have? The public is unaware of the difference in training, and there > isn't > > > likely to be a change in legal status that corrects this in our favor. > > > > > > I can't get malpractice insurance for using herbs, since it's not in > scope > > > of practice. I love working with herbs, and feel that they're not only > > > valuable, but often critical. But, without malpractice insurance, I'm > > > taking > > > a signficant risk when I prescibe them for clients. The FPD won't > change > > > this. > > > > > > The quality of classes for the Masters degree no doubt varies from > school > > > to > > > school, but from what I've seen, can be poor. (I have a MSOM.) Why is > > > adding > > > more poor quality schooling a good idea? Why not provide a better > education > > > > > > for the classes that are currently being taken? > > > > > > Do other Masters level programs allow people to flunk exams, retake the > > > same > > > exam, and then pass? Why can people get clinic credit when someone else > > > does > > > the work? (Both of these were common at my school.) There are so many > > > problems with the current training that it seems like that should be > > > cleaned > > > up first, before requiring more money and time to be spent to achieve a > > > FPD. > > > > > > Whether one does just the acupuncture training, or goes on for the > Masters > > > or doctoral programs, it's difficult to earn a living in the field in > many > > > states. It sounds like in some states, (with a broader scope of > practice, > > > perhaps?), people do well, but I don't know many people in my area who > stay > > > > > > within the law, (i.e. no insurance fraud, staying within bounds of our > > > training. etc.), who have high levels of income from acupuncture. > Should > > > people be required to spend even more money, and go further into debt, > to > > > struggle to make a living? > > > > > > We all take CEU classes, (both for required credits, and, hopefully, > for > > > our > > > continued learning), and have the opportunity to enhance our learning, > > > focusing on the areas that will most benefit our own particular > pratices. > > > For those who want the doctoral title, they have the opportunity to > pursue > > > that. I don't see the benefit of requiring the FPD, especially > considering > > > the poor quality of current classes, the limited scope of practice that > > > many > > > of us have, MDs and chiros being able to do what we do with so little > > > training, and the current state of the economy. > > > > > > JP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 Sure Hugo, Sorry I didn't get into more details before. I submitted the post at midnight and was exhausted. About a year and a half ago I got really sick of everybody complaining about other doctors performing acupuncture with anywhere from zero to 300 hours of study and calling it " medical acupuncture " and not doing anything about it. I was hearing the same complaints for at least 5 years and nothing was being done about it! Many felt our associations were not doing anything about this specific issue or at least not enough. So I decided to do what I do best... search engine marketing. I know that I know close to nothing about legislation so I thought of going straight to the public and informing them of the differences of training from a " medical acupuncturist " and an L.Ac. I thought it would be great if I can use my skills to create a website that can be listed high on Google so that anyone searching for medical acupuncture will land on my site and I can tell them hey, be careful of what kind of acupuncturist to go to. Not all acupuncturists are created equal. Stay away from " medical acupuncturists " and go to L.Ac's. etc. So that's what I am doing. I created the site http://www.medicalacupuncturefacts.com <http://www.medicalacupuncturefacts.com> and over the past year and a half I started climbing in the search engine rankings passing all the medical acupuncturists and then passing the International Academy of Medical Acupuncture and The American Board of Medical Acupuncture. The AAMA are the " big dogs " and I am now just under them. You can see if you search Google for medical acupuncture. The AAMA has been in that top position for so many years, but just over the past month I struck a hard blow and I now feel like if I push harder I just might be able to take 'em down and claim that number one spot. It will be tough though! One may ask if I am being effective in doing this. I will have to answer yes! You can look at the " we get emails " page and see what people are saying. And I know that I had deterred many prospective patients from going to a " medical acupuncturist " and went to L.Ac's instead. Even some doctors who see this get second thoughts and think maybe they should go to AOM school instead. I also must be doing something cause I get that occassional hate mail from an MD or DC " medical acupuncturist " . Although everytime I refer to an L.Ac I feel like I won. But we wont win without strong legislation. With all that said, Medical acupuncture is growing at an alarming rate and we ARE losing the value of the L.Ac. According to Google, the search for " medical acupuncture " has risen by 33% this past year and climbing! " Medical acupuncturists " are being certified each year at a very high rate. More and more blogs are referring to medical acupuncturists over licensed acupuncturists. More and more acupuncture jobs are seeking out only " medical acupuncturists " . Even our own acupuncture schools have begun offering " medical acupuncture " courses! More insurance companies pay for their acupuncture services and not ours, even for the same patient! This hapened to me 3 times with UHC. Medical acupuncturists have a strong voice with the public and are educating them about acupuncture and where to go to receive treatments…to medical acupuncturists! (Not L.Ac's) So if anybody wants to help out, please do. - If you have a website, link to http://www.medicalacupuncturefacts.com <http://www.medicalacupuncturefacts.com> - Join our Medical Acupuncture facts Facebook group www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=30776571422 <http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=30776571422> - please write articles on this subject. I have received constructive criticism that my articles are not.. well, let's just say " the best " and I agree with them but I need help and that's all I can do. - You will see a donation link on the site if you would like to donate. I have had just a couple of donations and have spent a lot of my own money and time on this. If I had some more money I will be more confident that we can claim the number one spot for medical acupuncture and at least " own it " that way. We could say what we want to say to the public as we WILL be the first stop that anyone sees when searching for medical acupuncture. I am already so close. WOW, sorry, long email! If anybody wants to help feel free to contact me offlist as well since I don't always catch messages on here. Thanks! Elie Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi Elie, can you give us more details? How are you fighting these battles? > > Thanks, > Hugo > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > ________________________________ > elieg1969 pokerboy729 > Chinese Medicine > Sat, 24 April, 2010 23:45:01 > Re: Degrees > > > > > I am acting as " bouncer " and I agree with you Kim. > I don't know legislative issues and I may not be so " correct " in my approach cause I don't have much help, but I am taking on the " medical acupuncturists " online and I am 90% there! I already beat out the International Academy of Medical Acupuncture and The American Board of Medical Acupuncture and the AAMA are in my sights and they are wounded! I have counteracted many prospective acupuncture patients looking for " medical acupuncture " treatments and diverted them to L.Ac's which is my goal. Without someone stepping in with legislation, I will not win the war, but I guarantee I will win many battles. > > Elie > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 Elie Bravo. Now if thousands of trained AOM practitioners would set up similar websites the better trained professionals will knock them down to the bottom. It is true that the internet is where people find such practitioners. You have created a NO BRAINER for the rest of us. I know quite a few colleagues who just might follow. Richard In a message dated 4/26/2010 1:15:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, pokerboy729 writes: Sure Hugo, Sorry I didn't get into more details before. I submitted the post at midnight and was exhausted. About a year and a half ago I got really sick of everybody complaining about other doctors performing acupuncture with anywhere from zero to 300 hours of study and calling it " medical acupuncture " and not doing anything about it. I was hearing the same complaints for at least 5 years and nothing was being done about it! Many felt our associations were not doing anything about this specific issue or at least not enough. So I decided to do what I do best... search engine marketing. I know that I know close to nothing about legislation so I thought of going straight to the public and informing them of the differences of training from a " medical acupuncturist " and an L.Ac. I thought it would be great if I can use my skills to create a website that can be listed high on Google so that anyone searching for medical acupuncture will land on my site and I can tell them hey, be careful of what kind of acupuncturist to go to. Not all acupuncturists are created equal. Stay away from " medical acupuncturists " and go to L.Ac's. etc. So that's what I am doing. I created the site _http://www.medicalahttp://www.medichtt_ (http://www.medicalacupuncturefacts.com/) <_http://www.medicalahttp://www.medichtt_ (http://www.medicalacupuncturefacts.com/) > and over the past year and a half I started climbing in the search engine rankings passing all the medical acupuncturists and then passing the International Academy of Medical Acupuncture and The American Board of Medical Acupuncture. The AAMA are the " big dogs " and I am now just under them. You can see if you search Google for medical acupuncture. The AAMA has been in that top position for so many years, but just over the past month I struck a hard blow and I now feel like if I push harder I just might be able to take 'em down and claim that number one spot. It will be tough though! One may ask if I am being effective in doing this. I will have to answer yes! You can look at the " we get emails " page and see what people are saying. And I know that I had deterred many prospective patients from going to a " medical acupuncturist " and went to L.Ac's instead. Even some doctors who see this get second thoughts and think maybe they should go to AOM school instead. I also must be doing something cause I get that occassional hate mail from an MD or DC " medical acupuncturist " o Although everytime I refer to an L.Ac I feel like I won. But we wont win without strong legislation. With all that said, Medical acupuncture is growing at an alarming rate and we ARE losing the value of the L.Ac. According to Google, the search for " medical acupuncture " has risen by 33% this past year and climbing! " Medical acupuncturists " are being certified each year at a very high rate. More and more blogs are referring to medical acupuncturists over licensed acupuncturists. More and more acupuncture jobs are seeking out only " medical acupuncturists " a Even our own acupuncture schools have begun offering " medical acupuncture " courses! More insurance companies pay for their acupuncture services and not ours, even for the same patient! This hapened to me 3 times with UHC. Medical acupuncturists have a strong voice with the public and are educating them about acupuncture and where to go to receive treatments…to medical acupuncturists! (Not L.Ac's) So if anybody wants to help out, please do. - If you have a website, link to _http://www.medicalahttp://www.medichtt_ (http://www.medicalacupuncturefacts.com/) <_http://www.medicalahttp://www.medichtt_ (http://www.medicalacupuncturefacts.com/) > - Join our Medical Acupuncture facts Facebook group www.facebook.www.facebowww.facebook.<WBwww <_http://www.facebookhttp://www.http://www.facebhtt_ (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=30776571422) > - please write articles on this subject. I have received constructive criticism that my articles are not.. well, let's just say " the best " and I agree with them but I need help and that's all I can do. - You will see a donation link on the site if you would like to donate. I have had just a couple of donations and have spent a lot of my own money and time on this. If I had some more money I will be more confident that we can claim the number one spot for medical acupuncture and at least " own it " that way. We could say what we want to say to the public as we WILL be the first stop that anyone sees when searching for medical acupuncture. I am already so close. WOW, sorry, long email! If anybody wants to help feel free to contact me offlist as well since I don't always catch messages on here. Thanks! Elie _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@..s> wrote: > > Hi Elie, can you give us more details? How are you fighting these battles? > > Thanks, > Hugo > > ____________ ____ ____ > Hugo Ramiro > _http://middlemedicihttp://middlehtt_ (http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com/) > _http://www.middlemehttp://www_ (http://www.middlemedicine.org/) > > > > > > ____________ ____ ____ > elieg1969 pokerboy729@ Fr > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) > Sat, 24 April, 2010 23:45:01 > Re: Degrees > > > > > I am acting as " bouncer " and I agree with you Kim. > I don't know legislative issues and I may not be so " correct " in my approach cause I don't have much help, but I am taking on the " medical acupuncturists " online and I am 90% there! I already beat out the International Academy of Medical Acupuncture and The American Board of Medical Acupuncture and the AAMA are in my sights and they are wounded! I have counteracted many prospective acupuncture patients looking for " medical acupuncture " treatments and diverted them to L.Ac's which is my goal. Without someone stepping in with legislation, I will not win the war, but I guarantee I will win many battles. > > Elie > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 Elie Your are right....the attack NEEDS to be on ALL fronts. Conversation has mentioned legal.......IMO...just NOT with the crooked legal system. The legislative system can be easier to deal with......at times. Glad someone else out there is fighting back. Richard In a message dated 4/25/2010 10:38:58 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, pokerboy729 writes: Without someone stepping in with legislation, I will not win the war, but I guarantee I will win many battles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 Hi all: -Mike-- Most graduates have never owned or managed a business prior to entering OM school. There is little practice mgmt or marketing, so we are bound to see high failure levels. --- This is an important point, Mike. And I believe it goes hand in hand with a weak OM community, whether it is in the form of prof assoc, or the idea that there is too much competition from others in our profession, or lack of contact with a mentor to help us throuhg tight spots. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 Greetings All - I have been reading but not active, but participate as I can. First, it is difficult to get an apples to apples comparison for China entry level programs to US entry programs. In China - entry is the 6 year program, the Baccalaureate of Medicine (US equivalent to MD but without the residency, according to regional accreditors). This includes all undergraduate work as well as professional degree education. In the US, for many schools, the entry requirement is a 4 year baccalaureate plus a 4 year master degree making it 8 years to the master degree - via the longest master degree programs in human history. The US DAOM is considered by ACAOM to be equivalent to the China masters degree which is achieved after graduating from the entry level baccalaureate of medicine. In my opinion, the US programs should be entry level doctorates with slight tweaks of competency relative to these features: professionalism, systems based medicine, and evidence based medicine (EBM). The EBM should be constructed to meet the needs of our field as they have done in China by including classics, senior doctor experience (cases) and contemporary research such as randomized controlled trials and Cochrane data base criteria. This profession does not have a doctorate for entry when most other allied health professions do. It presents problems for representatives of this field who are involved in policy development and peer development of interdisciplinary works. The DAOM helps this problem... Most importantly, professionals in this field often more aptly express the role of doctor in society than many others - docere - to teach. The fact that this field does not have a doctorate has more to do with imperialist science and the hegemony of western world views over eastern than it does education. When we avoid our true roles as doctors and do not honestly label that role, we support the monopolization of corporate medicine in the West. This is our profession, which includes our agencies. ACAOM is requiremed to include practicing professionals as well as academics in the accreditation dialog. They also need site visitors. State and national professional associations are also vehicles for transforming this profession. I say anyone who has problems with ACAOM, AAAOM or NCCAOM and their processes has a responsibility to participate. It is easy to sit on the side lines and take pot shots. It is far more difficult to get involved and be responsible for the results. I invite all here to become more involved in the evolution of this field, creating a profession that we can all be proud of. Warmly, Will Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 Very cool, Elie. True story. My acupuncturist moved to Hawaii about 10 years ago. Anyway, so I tried to find someone new, but there weren't many options. There was one or two acupuncturists within like an hour's drive. Hour and a half, iirc. My insurance told me they'd cover a large part of the treatment, if it was done by an MD who also did acupuncture. LOL. So I get there, and it's obvious this person knows NOTHING WHATSOEVER about what she's doing. I had no training at the time, but I had recieved treatments. I doubt she had. Anyway, she didn't even end up treating me! She tried to sell me some cd's with which to do visualization and tried to also refer me to some arthritis specialist another hour away. Oh yeah, she also ended up charging me about $625.00. LOL. (She also lied to me about three times during this whole process, but I'm not saying that all MDs are like her or anything.) So yeah. Wish I'd have had this info ten years ago! It strikes me that many people try " Medical Acupuncture, " and then it's unsuccessful, and then they think " acupuncture " is not effective. And I wonder how many of these " acupuncture studies " use " Medical Acupuncture. " In fact, I propose a study. How about TCM style acupuncture treatments, vs 5 Element style treatments, vs " Medical Acupuncture " treatments. We'll see which is the most effective! - " elieg1969 " <pokerboy729 <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, April 25, 2010 6:09 PM Re: Degrees Sure Hugo, Sorry I didn't get into more details before. I submitted the post at midnight and was exhausted. About a year and a half ago I got really sick of everybody complaining about other doctors performing acupuncture with anywhere from zero to 300 hours of study and calling it " medical acupuncture " and not doing anything about it. I was hearing the same complaints for at least 5 years and nothing was being done about it! Many felt our associations were not doing anything about this specific issue or at least not enough. So I decided to do what I do best... search engine marketing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 To summarize: 1: All TCM students are illiterate hippies. They can barely read and certainly cannot write papers. 2: All TCM schools are inadequate, hopelessly so. 3: The DAOM students emerge as competent professionals with high literacy rates and writing skills, despite the fact that they have already actually completed all of the curriculum during the course of their 6 year Masters degree. This results from two more years (dunno if they include summers) of studying Chinese classical literature and completing more intern hours. CONCLUSION: The 6 year Masters degree should stay, but the rest of us all should be pressured (not necessarily forced) to complete the DAOM. Is that a fair assesment? - " Joe Messey " <joe.messey <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, April 25, 2010 5:01 PM Re: Re: Degrees > Mike said: > It sounds like you are generalizing that all OM schools are teaching > poorly > across the board. > > Joe sez: > sorry - I may be overgeneralizing > ALL schools have problems > all of them have strengths > 1/2 the classes are mediocre to painful > 1/2 the classes are good to great > a big part of it is that too much is based on didactic training (50-50 see > above) and this medicine must be learned by seeing 1000s of patients - not > from a book/lecture > > Mike said: > You might also want to consider what Zev has undertaken in the DAOM > program > in San Diego > > Joe sez > I have looked at DAOM programs - some are better than others, for sure. > None > have enough clinic (in my opinion) > With all due respect to any program and anyone's involvement in a > program - > we, as an industry have a long, long way to go > that is why these discussions are good and important > > I agree with you and John that the general public will have much greater > respect for us when we can call ourselves " doctor " . We should be educated > as > doctors and carry the title - just I think the education is a far cry from > being a doctor. What if someone tried to get through Med school without > having taken a single course in life-sciences? Who has taken any real > course > in any Chinese medicine before entering TCM school? > > Final point > I have spoken with a number of people involved in the transition in Cali > to > MSTCM years ago. The requirement for entry was 60 units (basically an > Associates or covering general ed) > Most of the programs at that time were 3 years (many still are) > The first 2 years was supposed to bring someone to a level of BS in TCM > (might be good to award it as such) > the 3rd year was the MS portion > since nobody going into the program has/had any background in TCM when > entering the schools, this model still might apply (although my colleagues > and I still think that we aren't nearly as educated as a person in China > who > has a BS in TCM) > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 Mr Trismegistus, Though i am from other pond, I personally know some serious L Ac with good first bachelor degree, no in TCM of course and very devoted to perfect their practice in states. A mature tcm graduate like you have edges. You are more mature and know better about social manners around patients. My advice for you, if you don't mind, is to find a mentor and really pick up clinical efficacy. That gurantees patients. An advanced degree cannot, particularly in our profession. Just put ourselves in the shoes of patients. At the end of the day, What patients really care are their problems being solved. DC, MDs practicing acupuncture are also common in other countries (not in China). I had met patients who complained about they were fooled and realized what acu is all about, after my treatment. If we are good at doing what we do, no other professions can steal our patients. Of coz educating them is necessary. You are still not aged, I guess. Pick one specialty and include herbal treatment. Being licensed is just the beginning, not the ending of learning. Of course there are issues about schools management, curriculum, textbooks, lectures quality, etc. Wish you good luck. Sung, Yuk-ming Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 And whose ways might be those? Specifically those who make money from the trade-school-cottage industry? I think not. Richard In a message dated 4/26/2010 11:31:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Basically, we need to become more educated on how to be professionals and the ways that things need to be accomplished Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 Michael All of my patients ask me what to call me on first visit..........and I tell them to call me.....Richard. Although I use all the initials after my name.....I do not call myself DOCTOR yet ALL of my patients call me DOCTOR. I call myself an Oriental Medical Practitioner. Maybe its because of our scope in Florida in that we DIAGNOSE & TREAT ILLNESS & INJURY. I'll repeat.....what else might that be if not a doctor? Richard In a message dated 4/26/2010 1:28:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, I was not discussing this but post graduation and the concept of being a professional. I know this is an individual issue but I have noticed my share of concerns in this area. We should be polling, for our own sake, what patients consider us to be and if we are OK with that. We might be really shocked to know how they see us. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Mon, 26 Apr 2010 13:10:24 -0400 Re: TCM - Re: Degrees And whose ways might be those? Specifically those who make money from the trade-school-cottage industry? I think not. Richard In a message dated 4/26/2010 11:31:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Basically, we need to become more educated on how to be professionals and the ways that things need to be accomplished [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar & ocid=PID28 326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 Just may be.......!! In a message dated 4/26/2010 1:51:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, magisterium_magnum writes: " Master " of your Domain? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 Mercurius Trismegistus Is that a fair assesment? Joe sez: tsk, tsk, tsk when someone goes overboard like this, it is hard to take them seriously. You are pushing legitimate criticisms to a ridiculous extreme. This has only reinforced my perception of you as being very immature. Your debate style lacks critical thinking and, so, there is no point A famous quote from martial arts training applies: " After 2 years many think they know alot... after 20 years those who are sincere realize they still know very little " Clearly the first part applies to you. hopefully, with maturity you will arrive at the second part, some day Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 M The interesting thing IMO is that if I wasn't able to help them they wouldn't care what I called myself and they might be calling me quack.....BUT since a very high percentage are helped they give respect for ability to function. I never advertised and never plan to. Don't need to. Plenty of referrals even without asking for referrals. As to the ability to use doctor or physician......a long 11 year battle. Richard A Freiberg OMD DAc AP LAc In a message dated 4/26/2010 2:00:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: R, It sounds like you benefit from this doctor legislation in your state. Perceptions are so different from state to state and profession to profession. Appearance and actions are important to professions, as that is how others determine who we are. I am glad that in your state, you are able to use doctor or physician as I think it elevates patient's thinking of who we are. I have a doctorate and would prefer patient's use my first name but many respectfully use my last name. Most of my patients are Asian. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Mon, 26 Apr 2010 13:31:43 -0400 Re: TCM - Re: Degrees Michael All of my patients ask me what to call me on first visit..........and I tell them to call me.....Richard. Although I use all the initials after my name.....I do not call myself DOCTOR yet ALL of my patients call me DOCTOR. I call myself an Oriental Medical Practitioner. Maybe its because of our scope in Florida in that we DIAGNOSE & TREAT ILLNESS & INJURY. I'll repeat.....what else might that be if not a doctor? Richard In a message dated 4/26/2010 1:28:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, I was not discussing this but post graduation and the concept of being a professional. I know this is an individual issue but I have noticed my share of concerns in this area. We should be polling, for our own sake, what patients consider us to be and if we are OK with that. We might be really shocked to know how they see us. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Mon, 26 Apr 2010 13:10:24 -0400 Re: TCM - Re: Degrees And whose ways might be those? Specifically those who make money from the trade-school-cottage industry? I think not. Richard In a message dated 4/26/2010 11:31:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Basically, we need to become more educated on how to be professionals and the ways that things need to be accomplished [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar & ocid=PID28 326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 Will, Well said. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine wmorris33 Mon, 26 Apr 2010 08:21:59 +0000 Re: Degrees Greetings All - I have been reading but not active, but participate as I can. First, it is difficult to get an apples to apples comparison for China entry level programs to US entry programs. In China - entry is the 6 year program, the Baccalaureate of Medicine (US equivalent to MD but without the residency, according to regional accreditors). This includes all undergraduate work as well as professional degree education. In the US, for many schools, the entry requirement is a 4 year baccalaureate plus a 4 year master degree making it 8 years to the master degree - via the longest master degree programs in human history. The US DAOM is considered by ACAOM to be equivalent to the China masters degree which is achieved after graduating from the entry level baccalaureate of medicine. In my opinion, the US programs should be entry level doctorates with slight tweaks of competency relative to these features: professionalism, systems based medicine, and evidence based medicine (EBM). The EBM should be constructed to meet the needs of our field as they have done in China by including classics, senior doctor experience (cases) and contemporary research such as randomized controlled trials and Cochrane data base criteria. This profession does not have a doctorate for entry when most other allied health professions do. It presents problems for representatives of this field who are involved in policy development and peer development of interdisciplinary works. The DAOM helps this problem... Most importantly, professionals in this field often more aptly express the role of doctor in society than many others - docere - to teach. The fact that this field does not have a doctorate has more to do with imperialist science and the hegemony of western world views over eastern than it does education. When we avoid our true roles as doctors and do not honestly label that role, we support the monopolization of corporate medicine in the West. This is our profession, which includes our agencies. ACAOM is requiremed to include practicing professionals as well as academics in the accreditation dialog. They also need site visitors. State and national professional associations are also vehicles for transforming this profession. I say anyone who has problems with ACAOM, AAAOM or NCCAOM and their processes has a responsibility to participate. It is easy to sit on the side lines and take pot shots. It is far more difficult to get involved and be responsible for the results. I invite all here to become more involved in the evolution of this field, creating a profession that we can all be proud of. Warmly, Will _______________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en\ -US:WM_HMP:042010_3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 MT, These statements are overly generalized at best and outright dishonest at worst. You can, of course, post about your experiences and concerns, much like the rest of us. In case you have not noticed, some of us do feel that certain aspects of our education were good. That does not mean that each program will suffer in exactly the same areas or level. I mentioned Zev and his work to add to what his school is doing to strengthen our education. In the end, it takes resources, ie, money, to provide options and hire and train good faculty. The programs offer what they can and should be judged w/i this context. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine magisterium_magnum Mon, 26 Apr 2010 01:32:05 -0700 Re: Re: Degrees To summarize: 1: All TCM students are illiterate hippies. They can barely read and certainly cannot write papers. 2: All TCM schools are inadequate, hopelessly so. 3: The DAOM students emerge as competent professionals with high literacy rates and writing skills, despite the fact that they have already actually completed all of the curriculum during the course of their 6 year Masters degree. This results from two more years (dunno if they include summers) of studying Chinese classical literature and completing more intern hours. CONCLUSION: The 6 year Masters degree should stay, but the rest of us all should be pressured (not necessarily forced) to complete the DAOM. Is that a fair assesment? - " Joe Messey " <joe.messey <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, April 25, 2010 5:01 PM Re: Re: Degrees > Mike said: > It sounds like you are generalizing that all OM schools are teaching > poorly > across the board. > > Joe sez: > sorry - I may be overgeneralizing > ALL schools have problems > all of them have strengths > 1/2 the classes are mediocre to painful > 1/2 the classes are good to great > a big part of it is that too much is based on didactic training (50-50 see > above) and this medicine must be learned by seeing 1000s of patients - not > from a book/lecture > > Mike said: > You might also want to consider what Zev has undertaken in the DAOM > program > in San Diego > > Joe sez > I have looked at DAOM programs - some are better than others, for sure. > None > have enough clinic (in my opinion) > With all due respect to any program and anyone's involvement in a > program - > we, as an industry have a long, long way to go > that is why these discussions are good and important > > I agree with you and John that the general public will have much greater > respect for us when we can call ourselves " doctor " . We should be educated > as > doctors and carry the title - just I think the education is a far cry from > being a doctor. What if someone tried to get through Med school without > having taken a single course in life-sciences? Who has taken any real > course > in any Chinese medicine before entering TCM school? > > Final point > I have spoken with a number of people involved in the transition in Cali > to > MSTCM years ago. The requirement for entry was 60 units (basically an > Associates or covering general ed) > Most of the programs at that time were 3 years (many still are) > The first 2 years was supposed to bring someone to a level of BS in TCM > (might be good to award it as such) > the 3rd year was the MS portion > since nobody going into the program has/had any background in TCM when > entering the schools, this model still might apply (although my colleagues > and I still think that we aren't nearly as educated as a person in China > who > has a BS in TCM) > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 Hugo, What we need is to put more focus upon practice mgmt, business planning, marketing, legal entity, accounting, etc. Basically, we need to become more educated on how to be professionals and the ways that things need to be accomplished. Some may want to remain as sole practitioners but not if they understood their liabilities and lack of legal protections. The schools and the professions have been slow to get this point. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Mon, 26 Apr 2010 04:01:55 +0000 Re: Re: Degrees Hi all: -Mike-- Most graduates have never owned or managed a business prior to entering OM school. There is little practice mgmt or marketing, so we are bound to see high failure levels. --- This is an important point, Mike. And I believe it goes hand in hand with a weak OM community, whether it is in the form of prof assoc, or the idea that there is too much competition from others in our profession, or lack of contact with a mentor to help us throuhg tight spots. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 Kim, The only way a new graduate can stay afloat is to either rely upon their educational training, which includes all those hours of practice mgmt, or to find employment (or other job while they are starting their practice). We have few options and if the business side of things is not addressed well enough, it matters little how much OM training you get. If you did get a student loan, you can defer for some time as well. It some point in time, the lack of business knowledge needs to be addressed. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > Chinese Medicine > kuangguiyu > Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:12:25 -0700 > Re: Re: Degrees > > Mike - > > I'm sure there's a degree of truth to that - and it's an area that needs > addressing in a big way - but it's a lot easier to stay afloat while dealing > with a 35-50K note than a 95K+ note. > > Kim > > > > On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 4:55 PM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1wrote: > > > > > > > > > Most graduates have never owned or managed a business prior to entering OM > > school. There is little practice mgmt or marketing, so we are bound to see > > high failure levels. > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > > > kuangguiyu <kuangguiyu%40gmail.com> > > > Sun, 25 Apr 2010 15:22:00 -0700 > > > Re: Re: Degrees > > > > > > JP - > > > > > > You said, " Whether one does just the acupuncture training, or goes on for > > > the Masters > > > or doctoral programs, it's difficult to earn a living in the field in > > > many states. " > > > > > > That's one of many excellent points. The FPD would almost certainly add a > > > lot of expense to the educational process and make it even more difficult > > > for many to succeed in practice. The end result might well be more > > > out-of-work acupuncturists carrying even higher levels of debt. > > > > > > IMO a logical way to address the education dilemma would be to: > > > > > > a). have a RIGOROUS, AFFORDABLE two year Master's degree in acupuncture. > > > (This should be easy to structure by removing some of the bloat from > > > current programs.) > > > > > > b). have a RIGOROUS, AFFORDABLE three year MS in acupuncture and > > herbology. > > > > > > c). continue the already extant DAOM for those who wish to specialize or > > > focus on research. > > > > > > I feel that the profession would benefit merely from having more > > successful > > > graduates out there making a living and demonstrating to even more people > > > the effectiveness of our medicine. And if it's possible to become > > > affordably " street-legal " , then it follows that it would make it easier > > for > > > more of these grads to become successful and continue to afford further > > > training should they so desire. > > > > > > I know the schools are concerned about the bottom line, but more > > affordable > > > training should translate into more students. > > > > > > Kim > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 11:47 AM, kurvenal <kurvenal<kurvenal%40ameritech.net>> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In some states, it's not even possible to become a licensed > > acupuncturist. > > > > > > > > In many states, mine included, a Masters degree is NOT a requirement > > for > > > > licensing, so we don't even have a Masters degree entry level yet. > > > > > > > > Considering that the scope of practice in my state, as well as other > > > > states, > > > > consists of only acupuncture, (herbs are not in scope, let alone being > > a > > > > primary care provider), it seems like the Masters level as an entry > > level > > > > would be an over-kill. MDs and chiros can needle clients with far fewer > > > > hours of training in acupuncture, and they are far more likely to be > > able > > > > to > > > > get insurance reimbursement for clients. More hours of schooling won't > > > > correct this. This is a political battle, and if no one is swayed by > > the > > > > Masters degree, why will a FPD suddenly make the public aware that the > > MD > > > > or > > > > chiro has little training, vs. the thousands of hours of training that > > I > > > > have? The public is unaware of the difference in training, and there > > isn't > > > > likely to be a change in legal status that corrects this in our favor. > > > > > > > > I can't get malpractice insurance for using herbs, since it's not in > > scope > > > > of practice. I love working with herbs, and feel that they're not only > > > > valuable, but often critical. But, without malpractice insurance, I'm > > > > taking > > > > a signficant risk when I prescibe them for clients. The FPD won't > > change > > > > this. > > > > > > > > The quality of classes for the Masters degree no doubt varies from > > school > > > > to > > > > school, but from what I've seen, can be poor. (I have a MSOM.) Why is > > > > adding > > > > more poor quality schooling a good idea? Why not provide a better > > education > > > > > > > > for the classes that are currently being taken? > > > > > > > > Do other Masters level programs allow people to flunk exams, retake the > > > > same > > > > exam, and then pass? Why can people get clinic credit when someone else > > > > does > > > > the work? (Both of these were common at my school.) There are so many > > > > problems with the current training that it seems like that should be > > > > cleaned > > > > up first, before requiring more money and time to be spent to achieve a > > > > FPD. > > > > > > > > Whether one does just the acupuncture training, or goes on for the > > Masters > > > > or doctoral programs, it's difficult to earn a living in the field in > > many > > > > states. It sounds like in some states, (with a broader scope of > > practice, > > > > perhaps?), people do well, but I don't know many people in my area who > > stay > > > > > > > > within the law, (i.e. no insurance fraud, staying within bounds of our > > > > training. etc.), who have high levels of income from acupuncture. > > Should > > > > people be required to spend even more money, and go further into debt, > > to > > > > struggle to make a living? > > > > > > > > We all take CEU classes, (both for required credits, and, hopefully, > > for > > > > our > > > > continued learning), and have the opportunity to enhance our learning, > > > > focusing on the areas that will most benefit our own particular > > pratices. > > > > For those who want the doctoral title, they have the opportunity to > > pursue > > > > that. I don't see the benefit of requiring the FPD, especially > > considering > > > > the poor quality of current classes, the limited scope of practice that > > > > many > > > > of us have, MDs and chiros being able to do what we do with so little > > > > training, and the current state of the economy. > > > > > > > > JP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 M Benefit from this? What THIS might you be referring to? Richard A Freiberg OMD DAc AP LAc In a message dated 4/26/2010 2:33:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: R, So, in essence, you did benefit from this. This is not simply about marketing but also about who we are. We are doctors, IMO, and not technicians. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 26, 2010 Richard, I was not discussing this but post graduation and the concept of being a professional. I know this is an individual issue but I have noticed my share of concerns in this area. We should be polling, for our own sake, what patients consider us to be and if we are OK with that. We might be really shocked to know how they see us. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Mon, 26 Apr 2010 13:10:24 -0400 Re: Re: Degrees And whose ways might be those? Specifically those who make money from the trade-school-cottage industry? I think not. Richard In a message dated 4/26/2010 11:31:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Basically, we need to become more educated on how to be professionals and the ways that things need to be accomplished Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
