Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 I am acting as " bouncer " and I agree with you Kim. I don't know legislative issues and I may not be so " correct " in my approach cause I don't have much help, but I am taking on the " medical acupuncturists " online and I am 90% there! I already beat out the International Academy of Medical Acupuncture and The American Board of Medical Acupuncture and the AAMA are in my sights and they are wounded! I have counteracted many prospective acupuncture patients looking for " medical acupuncture " treatments and diverted them to L.Ac's which is my goal. Without someone stepping in with legislation, I will not win the war, but I guarantee I will win many battles. Elie Chinese Medicine , Kim Blankenship <kuangguiyu wrote: > > JK: > > " One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing " dry > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , DCs > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. " > > Creating another degree isn't going to stop the wholesale co-optation of > acupuncture by pretty much anybody who wants to use it. What's the possible > connection here? Our state and national leadership needs to get busy very > quickly and try to stop this nonsense before it's entirely too late. We > don't need to up the ante at the table - we need(ed) bouncers at the doors. > > Kim Blankenship, L.Ac. > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:00 AM, <johnkokko wrote: > > > Kath, > > yes... 4 years of post-grad education ($50 G+) deserves a doctorate degree > > and there needs to be: > > 1. higher entrance standards > > 2. more classical text and biomedical integration > > 3. more clinical practice (internship / residency) > > > > What we do for the profession today will affect the next generation of > > practitioners, > > so we can't just think about our own hides, but the entire profession for > > the future. > > > > One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical > > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing " dry > > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , DCs > > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). > > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. > > > > Another thing: > > I'm wondering if some seasoned practitioners are worried that if others > > coming out have doctorates > > that this will basically coerce them to have to go back to school > > to have the same degree as people without any professional experience, > > but have a more respected degree than they do. > > This same issue comes up in the PT world between Doctors of PT > > and those who graduated without a Doctorate degree. > > > > So, what do y'all think about a " grandfathering-in " program (counting past > > CEU credits, years of working experience etc.) or doctorate degree exam, or > > online CEUs for doctorate courses ? Would this work? > > > > K > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 I may be completely off the wall with the subject under discussion and maybe missing plenty of similar previous comments here? My reaction was however, surely by definition a doctorate should be based on peer reviewed research which is new in their particular field of study. This then is correctly written up in a thesis of so many words, plus a viva. I don't think this has any similarity to any degree course in acupuncture which I know of at undergraduate level, apart from the much smaller thesis and research given in at the end of the course after undergoing the required number of passed taught courses or modules? This being part of the normal academic structure at ordinary degree level. Helene ----------------- <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, April 25, 2010 11:56 AM <Chinese Medicine > Digest Number 3451 > There are 10 messages in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1.1. Re: Degrees > Joe Messey > 1.2. Re: Degrees > Joe Messey > 1.3. Re: Degrees > Joe Messey > 1.4. Re: Degrees > alon marcus > 1.5. Re: Degrees > Mercurius Trismegistus > 1.6. Re: Degrees > Mercurius Trismegistus > 1.7. Re: Degrees > Mercurius Trismegistus > 1.8. Re: Degrees > > 1.9. Re: Degrees > > > 2a. Re: An Online TCM Program is Needed > > > > Messages > ______________________ > 1.1. Re: Degrees > Posted by: " Joe Messey " joe.messey joemessey > Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:18 pm ((PDT)) > > Mercurius Trismegistus said: > That's because there's no real curriculum left to study, because it was > all > covered in the 6 year Master's degree. So then they have to say " research " > emphasis, because there's nothing else left to study. > > Joe sez: > [?] > > [?] > > [?] > > [?] > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 Hi Don, sorry, your viewpoint is very naive and expected from someone who started off westernised already. The most up-to-date sociology is on par with my points, whereas your viewpoint is unsupported by anything other than dogma. For those interested pick up " International Law and Indigenous Knowledge " and read where the next battles will be fought, and how well we, as an indigenous medicine, should be doing in the next 20 years. The strategies I outline are standard in the field at this time. Interestingly, you are the one who is behaving in a politically correct manner because YOU will not receive backlash for your very safe p.o.v. I, however,w ill. Therefore I am NOT behaving in a politically correct manner. As far as adaptation, had you been reading my post without knee-jerk reactions you would have recognised that, like in Tai Ji, no adapation is possible without a rock-solid connection to our centre. " Adaptation " without the connection to one's centre is capitulation. It just doesn't work. I write the way I write because this is a forum of, ostensibly, CM practitioners. I cannto communicate this way with the MDs and med students that I am constantly in contact with. I am fulyl aware of that, and I am very effective at advancing my political agenda with biomedical professionals. I just don't know how far I want to go into it " alone " as it were, and I am trying to stir up support. Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ Donald Snow <don83407 Chinese Traditional Medicine Sat, 24 April, 2010 11:49:47 RE: Re: Degrees I can't believe this conversation. If you want to observe ethnocentric, visit Japan, China, Egypt, Africa, etc. this political correctness has gone absolutely mad. Each ethnic group is, by definition, ethnocentric. We happen to live in the west, therefore we conform or die. Stop this madness. Since we are not more powerful or wealthier than the powers that be, we must conform. If you want change, do it from within, not without. We must work within the mainstream, using mainstream paradigms. That does not mean that our wonderful medical system needs to change the way it thinks (though I believe it must adapt to survive), but we must follow, and use, the educational system as it is. Just a thought. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 Hi Elie, can you give us more details? How are you fighting these battles? Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ elieg1969 <pokerboy729 Chinese Medicine Sat, 24 April, 2010 23:45:01 Re: Degrees I am acting as " bouncer " and I agree with you Kim. I don't know legislative issues and I may not be so " correct " in my approach cause I don't have much help, but I am taking on the " medical acupuncturists " online and I am 90% there! I already beat out the International Academy of Medical Acupuncture and The American Board of Medical Acupuncture and the AAMA are in my sights and they are wounded! I have counteracted many prospective acupuncture patients looking for " medical acupuncture " treatments and diverted them to L.Ac's which is my goal. Without someone stepping in with legislation, I will not win the war, but I guarantee I will win many battles. Elie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 Hugo, You appear to want to trust that courts will side on our behalf. After some recently appalling judicial decisions, I can safely say they do not always follow the law (Citizens United case). It would be great but in present times it is a naive expectation. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Sun, 25 Apr 2010 15:31:09 +0000 Re: Re: Degrees Hi Don, sorry, your viewpoint is very naive and expected from someone who started off westernised already. The most up-to-date sociology is on par with my points, whereas your viewpoint is unsupported by anything other than dogma. For those interested pick up " International Law and Indigenous Knowledge " and read where the next battles will be fought, and how well we, as an indigenous medicine, should be doing in the next 20 years. The strategies I outline are standard in the field at this time. Interestingly, you are the one who is behaving in a politically correct manner because YOU will not receive backlash for your very safe p.o.v. I, however,w ill. Therefore I am NOT behaving in a politically correct manner. As far as adaptation, had you been reading my post without knee-jerk reactions you would have recognised that, like in Tai Ji, no adapation is possible without a rock-solid connection to our centre. " Adaptation " without the connection to one's centre is capitulation. It just doesn't work. I write the way I write because this is a forum of, ostensibly, CM practitioners. I cannto communicate this way with the MDs and med students that I am constantly in contact with. I am fulyl aware of that, and I am very effective at advancing my political agenda with biomedical professionals. I just don't know how far I want to go into it " alone " as it were, and I am trying to stir up support. Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ Donald Snow <don83407 Chinese Traditional Medicine Sat, 24 April, 2010 11:49:47 RE: Re: Degrees I can't believe this conversation. If you want to observe ethnocentric, visit Japan, China, Egypt, Africa, etc. this political correctness has gone absolutely mad. Each ethnic group is, by definition, ethnocentric. We happen to live in the west, therefore we conform or die. Stop this madness. Since we are not more powerful or wealthier than the powers that be, we must conform. If you want change, do it from within, not without. We must work within the mainstream, using mainstream paradigms. That does not mean that our wonderful medical system needs to change the way it thinks (though I believe it must adapt to survive), but we must follow, and use, the educational system as it is. Just a thought. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 John, What do you mean by integrated health care? On Apr 25, 2010, at 4:16 AM, wrote: > Does it matter what people think? Certainly.. This will also influence how > the medical establishment perceives us. Like I've written before, we need > to evolve away from the 70's acupuncturist of rebellious mystic and 80's and > 90's spa-type treatments model to the 21st century model of integrated > medical health care. The FPD is the right direction for that. > > K Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 Hi Mike, What may be naivete, actually, is to expect that the courts SHOULDN'T side on our behalf. Of course there will be many legal battles, many (most?) of which will be fought in terms of the ratification of international treaties, like the Kyoto accord and so on and so forth. International law is becoming more and more primary as the world becomes more " globalised " . It is naive to think that domestic law can continue to function in an insular fashion. It doesn't work sociologically, it doesn't work economically, and it doesn't work environmentally. Obviously. Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Sun, 25 April, 2010 11:40:13 RE: Re: Degrees Hugo, You appear to want to trust that courts will side on our behalf. After some recently appalling judicial decisions, I can safely say they do not always follow the law (Citizens United case). It would be great but in present times it is a naive expectation. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 Nicely put. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > Chinese Medicine > johnkokko > Sun, 25 Apr 2010 06:16:16 -0500 > Re: Re: Degrees > > Kim, > I think we mentioned this before by several voices... > > 1. getting a DAOM vs MS will open doors into hospitals where licensed > acupuncturists will be the ones putting the needles in a body, not an MD or > PT with 150 hours of training. This is already happening. A few people > have already chimed in on this from their personal experience. > > 2. the FPD (higher standard) will shift the public's perception of us from > being " technicians " to being " medical practitioners " . If you don't think > that most people see us as 'technicians " who went to a 2 years " technical > school " , you must be living in an area where there are a lot of > acupuncturists and you don't have to do a lot of educating. In most > places in the country, between coasts, we're seen as 'new age quacks', > 'upgraded massage therapists' or 'someone who pokes needles in me and it > hurts!'. We really need to change this perception. One episode on Oprah > is not enough. Even in one of Dr. Oz's books appendix, acupuncture is > listed with a 2 year college pre-requisite and 2000 hours of training (which > is true in some limited cases). The problem is that on the next page, you > see twice the amount of training hours for doctors of chiropractic. > > Does it matter what people think? Certainly.. This will also influence how > the medical establishment perceives us. Like I've written before, we need > to evolve away from the 70's acupuncturist of rebellious mystic and 80's and > 90's spa-type treatments model to the 21st century model of integrated > medical health care. The FPD is the right direction for that. > > K > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Kim Blankenship <kuangguiyuwrote: > > > > > > > John - > > > > Please explain how improving our professional standards will prevent us > > from > > being " taken for all of our chips " . > > > > Kim > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:54 AM, <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > > wrote: > > > > > Kim, > > > I think that it's unreasonable with the resources that we have or don't > > > have > > > with the acupuncture organizations to fight the AMA and the ACA, but it > > is > > > reasonable to improve our own professional standards. > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Kim Blankenship <kuangguiyu<kuangguiyu%40gmail.com> > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JK: > > > > > > > > > > > > " One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical > > > > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing > > " dry > > > > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , > > DCs > > > > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). > > > > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. " > > > > > > > > Creating another degree isn't going to stop the wholesale co-optation > > of > > > > acupuncture by pretty much anybody who wants to use it. What's the > > > possible > > > > connection here? Our state and national leadership needs to get busy > > very > > > > quickly and try to stop this nonsense before it's entirely too late. We > > > > don't need to up the ante at the table - we need(ed) bouncers at the > > > doors. > > > > > > > > Kim Blankenship, L.Ac. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:00 AM, <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com> > > > <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Kath, > > > > > yes... 4 years of post-grad education ($50 G+) deserves a doctorate > > > > degree > > > > > and there needs to be: > > > > > 1. higher entrance standards > > > > > 2. more classical text and biomedical integration > > > > > 3. more clinical practice (internship / residency) > > > > > > > > > > What we do for the profession today will affect the next generation > > of > > > > > practitioners, > > > > > so we can't just think about our own hides, but the entire profession > > > for > > > > > the future. > > > > > > > > > > One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical > > > > > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing > > > " dry > > > > > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , > > > DCs > > > > > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). > > > > > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. > > > > > > > > > > Another thing: > > > > > I'm wondering if some seasoned practitioners are worried that if > > others > > > > > coming out have doctorates > > > > > that this will basically coerce them to have to go back to school > > > > > to have the same degree as people without any professional > > experience, > > > > > but have a more respected degree than they do. > > > > > This same issue comes up in the PT world between Doctors of PT > > > > > and those who graduated without a Doctorate degree. > > > > > > > > > > So, what do y'all think about a " grandfathering-in " program (counting > > > > past > > > > > CEU credits, years of working experience etc.) or doctorate degree > > > exam, > > > > or > > > > > online CEUs for doctorate courses ? Would this work? > > > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 7:18 AM, > > > > > <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com> <acukath%40gmail.com > > >>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > john: agree on all pts. > > > > > > > > > > > > btw: my MSTOM program was 4ys, yr-round intensive and i still only > > > > earned > > > > > a > > > > > > master's. this is an ongoing bone of contention. the MS doesn't > > > reflect > > > > > > the years of schooling and training we have. Patients want to see a > > > > > > doctor. as we are so close in hours at this pt to the dr., we might > > > as > > > > > well > > > > > > go all the way, and get the degree, legitimate title and respect > > that > > > > our > > > > > > prof deserves. also, i believe the pay scale would raise if we had > > > dr. > > > > > > degrees. > > > > > > > > > > > > if we were to go to the dr., we could then become primary health > > care > > > > > > givers > > > > > > in the med system (some states: CA, FL already recognize us this > > > way). > > > > as > > > > > > such, i believe (my Opinion) that we should be trained in basic > > west > > > > > > services, such as ordering and interpreting labs, mri's, > > ultrasounds, > > > > and > > > > > > so > > > > > > on, to the extent that a GP or internist is. this also would set up > > a > > > > > > framework for structure, add'l edu/training and (legitimate) boards > > > > > [boards > > > > > > is another can of worms here, new thread would be appropriate for > > > this > > > > > > topic] for such disciplines as infertility, CA support & tx, > > > > orthopedics, > > > > > > internal med and so on for us to have Real specialties (again, > > > > > specialties > > > > > > is a topic for a New Thread). > > > > > > > > > > > > and hugo: you may not like the idea of structure in edu, but this > > is > > > a > > > > > west > > > > > > country, and as such that's the way our edu system works. this is > > not > > > > to > > > > > > say the is not room for improvement or change in the sys, but it is > > > the > > > > > > current sys that is in place that we must work within if we are to > > be > > > a > > > > > > part/service the mainstream establishment. (for the record, i am > > not > > > a > > > > > > mainstreamer, but i have learned how to accommodate the sys in > > > certain > > > > > > areas > > > > > > when i must. business [which health care is, like it or not] is one > > > of > > > > > > those > > > > > > areas where the mainstream must be accommodated to a certain extent > > > in > > > > > > order > > > > > > for personal survival). > > > > > > > > > > > > my Opinions, > > > > > > > > > > > > kath > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:46 PM, <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com> > > > <johnkokko%40gmail.com> > > > > > <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > TCM schools require more memorization and less analyzation than > > > most > > > > > > > post-grad programs.. > > > > > > > TCM schools require no writing skills (essays), but many quizzing > > > and > > > > > > > testing (multiple choice) and some fill-in-the-blank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most post-grad programs require project-creating > > > (business/sciences) > > > > > > and/or > > > > > > > 20-40 page essays per class per semester (humanities) with a 200+ > > > > page > > > > > > > dissertation scrutinized by a committee with an initial proposal > > > for > > > > > > > research PhDs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > TCM colleges are difficult for many in the 1st year and 2nd years > > > > > > > especially, because it's a new language (pinyin / TCM language) > > and > > > > > > there's > > > > > > > a lot of memorization (stuffing thousands of years of > > foundational > > > > > > material > > > > > > > in one year).. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In China, isn't the BA program curriculum the same as what is > > > > > considered > > > > > > a > > > > > > > Masters program in the US? So, yes... I believe that what is > > called > > > > > > > post-grad (Masters) program for TCM is really like an under-grad > > > > > program > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > Chinese medicine. In the US, we need 2 full years to memorize > > > > > > terminology, > > > > > > > diagnostic signs, acupuncture points, herbs and formulas... and 2 > > > > full > > > > > > > years to analyze and clinically practice the medicine. That's why > > > I'm > > > > > > > for the FPD. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:51 PM, > > > > > > > <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com> <acukath%40gmail.com> > > <acukath%40gmail.com > > > > > > >>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rosemary: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want to see a > > > > > > > > doctoral-level education, the school culture has to change; as > > a > > > > > start > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > teachers salaries need to be increased to the point where they > > > > match > > > > > > > > salaries of other professionals teaching in universities. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i couldn't agree with you more on this issue. the local acu > > > college > > > > > in > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > town pays (incrediably) $25/hr! painters make more than that. > > > pcom, > > > > i > > > > > > > > understand, pays $45. part of the problem is that our teachers > > > are > > > > > not > > > > > > > > professors. i feel they should be, but it's more thatn a matter > > > of > > > > > > > handing > > > > > > > > out a title, there are requirements that go with the prof > > title, > > > > > which > > > > > > i > > > > > > > > feel our academics & schools should meet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > part of the pay problem, as i see (you men may disagree) is > > that > > > we > > > > > are > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > female dominated profession, and women make 75% of what men > > make. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > my Opinion folks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kath > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine > > > > > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Abstain from all that is evil. > > > > > > > > Perform all that is good. > > > > > > > > Purify your thoughts. > > > > > > > > This is the teaching of the Buddhas. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Follow Your Bliss! > > > > > > > > Joseph Campbell > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & > > > Spirituality: > > > > > > > > http://acukath.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & > > > joints > > > > > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > > > > > > Available at Asheville Center for : > > > > > > > > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amazon.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and from the following supply companies: > > > > > > > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, > > NC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For > > > > > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > > > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > > > > > > kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > > > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 I am not sure what your education contained but I am continually learning and reviewing information that I might not have remembered. This is since graduation 15 years ago. There is so much here to learn that it is not really possible to access much of it and I am only speaking of what is in English. I am getting deeper into the classical texts currently and plan to undertake seminars with a classical scholar. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine magisterium_magnum Sun, 25 Apr 2010 12:35:48 -0700 Re: Re: Degrees What's the difference? Do you think our classes are only 30 minutes long? Yeah, a Phd takes 8 years. Meanwhile, I did 4 years undergrad and 6 years postgrad. Doesn't that make it 10 years? So why am I just getting a Masters degree? Yeah, the 6 years is crammed into four, because we also go to school in the summer. So, like you say, let's count the hours. Now you think I should do two more years, when there isn't even any more curriculum to study? Please. I'm getting to be done with this topic. It's to the point where it's repetitive. I know that people who have already worked the extra years to get their doctorate don't want all the rest of us to be automatically recognized on the doctoral level, be let's tell it like it is. We did the work, and we learned all of the material. We should get what we deserve. And there is no need for ad hominems. Yeah, alot of hippies take up TCM. That doesn't mean they can't read or write. And if you don't think the curriculum is up to par, switch schools. Don't act like the subject matter as such is unrigorous. Thank you. - " " <johnkokko <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, April 25, 2010 3:43 AM Re: Re: Degrees > MT, > which school do you attend? > > I think that looking at the total hours is a better barometer than how > many > quarters, trimesters or semesters you attend in TCM college. In CA, the > minimum hours for graduates to sit for the CA acupuncture licensing exam > is > 3000. > > I agree that this is the longest Masters program in the world, but if you > take into account that many people don't come in with a BA/BS degree, it's > fair. If we go another 1000 hours and get a clinical doctorate, that is > also fair (relative to other medical degrees out there)... DC is 4000+ > for > example. > That's why the FPD makes sense. > > In short, TCM college is in my opinion, more difficult (effort, hours) > than > most Masters programs, but is not half as difficult as a PhD program > (people > take an average of 8 years to complete their PhD work... classes, > proposal, > research, dissertation, defense). > > I agree with Alon that even in the TCM world, we should be able to write > an > informative capstone project essay that exceeds 20 pages. One of the main > reasons is because traditionally, writing poetry in calligraphy, painting > a > landscape, playing the game of Go (wei-qi) and hitting a target with the > bow > and arrow were considered part of the training, alongside of memorizing > the > Confucian classics and sitting for an essay exam (I don't think they had > multiple-choice tests in the Ming dynasty). At least that was the > institutional / nobility training for a long time. In " traditional " days, > I'm sure that memorization included reciting whole passages from the Nei > jing and Shang han lun, not just remembering the order of the 5 phases. > Sun > Si-Miao talks about evening knowing astrology and mantic arts as a > pre-requisite to becoming a well-rounded doctor. > > There was also apprenticeship-style training in villages > (non-institutional), but I'm sure all of the good docs read and recited > from > the classics as well. Otherwise, you just gave everyone the same 3 > herbs... > a bitter one, a pungent one and probably Gan cao. > > K > > > > On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 5:09 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus < > magisterium_magnum wrote: > >> >> >> Sorry, 12 semesters. >> >> >> - >> " Mercurius Trismegistus " >> <magisterium_magnum<magisterium_magnum%40comcast.net> >> > >> To: >> <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> >> > >> Sunday, April 25, 2010 2:23 AM >> Re: Re: Degrees >> >> > You're saying I have 10 semesters of postgrad and I haven't earned a >> > doctorate? >> > As for quality of work, I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring >> > to >> > the fact that some schools are better than others? That's neither here >> > nor >> > there. >> > Are you saying that the TCM curriculum as such is substandard, and we >> > could >> > study it for ten years and still be inadequate? I seem to get pretty >> > good >> > results from my treatments. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > - >> > " Joe Messey " <joe.messey <joe.messey%40gmail.com>> >> > To: >> > <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> >> > >> > Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:13 AM >> > Re: Re: Degrees >> > >> > >> >> Alon said: >> >> the final papers i have seen coming out of DAOM programs (only a few) >> are >> >> not even in a level of an undergrad term paper >> >> >> >> Mercurius said: >> >> A DAOM is not a research emphasis degree.. >> >> >> >> Joe sez: >> >> wasn't the point about the low quality of work? not whether the degree >> is >> >> based on a paper. If you want to be called " doctor " you should at >> >> least >> >> be >> >> able to write an appropriate paper. The school shouldn't be holding >> >> you >> >> back >> >> - make it shorter... >> >> >> >> Have gone to some DAOM classes as CEU - most of the " clinic " was >> >> demo - >> >> Doctor candidates should be seeing 100s of patients with supervision >> >> (minimal?) not watching... >> >> >> >> some of the participants were quite happy - good >> >> many said that about 1/2 the classes were good to excellent >> >> 1/2 of the classes were poor to painful >> >> sound familiar? where have I had a similar experience? >> >> >> >> >> >> To claim to be a " Doctor " of Chinese medicine should represent >> >> something >> >> much, much higher than so many extra CEU classes. When I was in >> >> school, >> >> my >> >> teachers recited - " it takes 10 years to make a doctor " >> >> 6 years in school >> >> 4 years supervised hospital experience and many, many 1000s of patient >> >> contacts >> >> and they did it in Chinese >> >> >> >> me thinks that many want what they haven't earned >> >> >> >> >> >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 Since we already have the DAOM, I don't see the necessity of adding another, confusing doctorate degree. And I don't agree that most people see us as technicians and new age quacks; that's not my experience. I would like to see our state and national organizations make a concerted effort to educate the public about the amount of education we already have. Most of my patients are referrals and people come because they've been told that acupuncture worked better than other modalities at clearing up the referrer's problem. They don't know or care whether I'm a doctor or not, and many of them have a generally low opinion of MDs. I'm sure we all know some stellar MDs, but most of us - and this includes my patients - have also encountered some MDs that make you wonder how they could have possibly filled out the application for med school without help from a tutor. Many of my patients are frustrated from their poor experiences with expert doctors who don't listen to them, prescribe medications that make them worse, and charge an arm and a leg for the privilege of their expertise. You say: " ...we need to evolve away from the 70's acupuncturist of rebellious mystic and 80's and 90's spa-type treatments model to the 21st century model of integrated medical health care. " I've been receiving acupuncture throughout this time in various locations and have never been treated by a mystic or an aesthetician. As far as integrated healthcare - and this gets back to our original point of discussion - the main example I see of that is practitioners of other modalities integrating acupuncture into their skill-sets with no opposition. I believe that's what you were referring to when you stated that we needed the FPD in order to prevent being " taken for all our chips. " I still don't see how the FPD - or any internal tweaking of our educational standards - will put a stop to the usurpation of acupuncture by others. Sorry, but I don't think you're making your case. Kim On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 4:16 AM, <johnkokko wrote: > Kim, > I think we mentioned this before by several voices... > > 1. getting a DAOM vs MS will open doors into hospitals where licensed > acupuncturists will be the ones putting the needles in a body, not an MD or > PT with 150 hours of training. This is already happening. A few people > have already chimed in on this from their personal experience. > > 2. the FPD (higher standard) will shift the public's perception of us from > being " technicians " to being " medical practitioners " . If you don't think > that most people see us as 'technicians " who went to a 2 years " technical > school " , you must be living in an area where there are a lot of > acupuncturists and you don't have to do a lot of educating. In most > places in the country, between coasts, we're seen as 'new age quacks', > 'upgraded massage therapists' or 'someone who pokes needles in me and it > hurts!'. We really need to change this perception. One episode on Oprah > is not enough. Even in one of Dr. Oz's books appendix, acupuncture is > listed with a 2 year college pre-requisite and 2000 hours of training > (which > is true in some limited cases). The problem is that on the next page, you > see twice the amount of training hours for doctors of chiropractic. > > Does it matter what people think? Certainly.. This will also influence > how > the medical establishment perceives us. Like I've written before, we need > to evolve away from the 70's acupuncturist of rebellious mystic and 80's > and > 90's spa-type treatments model to the 21st century model of integrated > medical health care. The FPD is the right direction for that. > > K > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Kim Blankenship <kuangguiyu > >wrote: > > > > > > > John - > > > > Please explain how improving our professional standards will prevent us > > from > > being " taken for all of our chips " . > > > > Kim > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 Mercurius asks: " Meanwhile, I did 4 years undergrad and 6 years postgrad. Doesn't that make it 10 years? So why am I just getting a Masters degree? " Jan: I thought you answered that yourself a few days ago: " I have a BS in philosophy, 3/4 of a Masters in philosophy and was an independent researcher at the Institute for Philosophical Studies in Green Bay for 11 years. " So, you study philosophy and you want a doctorate in... Chinese medicine... while i command you for extensive studies, the dean would say... sorry buddy, you're going to have to start all over. You also say: " I am familiar with " critical thinking. " " Ahem. Jan Aymar, L.Ac., MERD. Aymar & Cooley Associates ________________________________ Mercurius Trismegistus <magisterium_magnum Chinese Medicine Sun, April 25, 2010 12:35:48 PM Re: Re: Degrees What's the difference? Do you think our classes are only 30 minutes long? Yeah, a Phd takes 8 years. Meanwhile, I did 4 years undergrad and 6 years postgrad. Doesn't that make it 10 years? So why am I just getting a Masters degree? Yeah, the 6 years is crammed into four, because we also go to school in the summer. So, like you say, let's count the hours. Now you think I should do two more years, when there isn't even any more curriculum to study? Please. I'm getting to be done with this topic. It's to the point where it's repetitive. I know that people who have already worked the extra years to get their doctorate don't want all the rest of us to be automatically recognized on the doctoral level, be let's tell it like it is. We did the work, and we learned all of the material. We should get what we deserve. And there is no need for ad hominems. Yeah, alot of hippies take up TCM. That doesn't mean they can't read or write. And if you don't think the curriculum is up to par, switch schools. Don't act like the subject matter as such is unrigorous. Thank you. - " " <johnkokko <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, April 25, 2010 3:43 AM Re: Re: Degrees > MT, > which school do you attend? > > I think that looking at the total hours is a better barometer than how > many > quarters, trimesters or semesters you attend in TCM college. In CA, the > minimum hours for graduates to sit for the CA acupuncture licensing exam > is > 3000. > > I agree that this is the longest Masters program in the world, but if you > take into account that many people don't come in with a BA/BS degree, it's > fair. If we go another 1000 hours and get a clinical doctorate, that is > also fair (relative to other medical degrees out there)... DC is 4000+ > for > example. > That's why the FPD makes sense. > > In short, TCM college is in my opinion, more difficult (effort, hours) > than > most Masters programs, but is not half as difficult as a PhD program > (people > take an average of 8 years to complete their PhD work... classes, > proposal, > research, dissertation, defense). > > I agree with Alon that even in the TCM world, we should be able to write > an > informative capstone project essay that exceeds 20 pages. One of the main > reasons is because traditionally, writing poetry in calligraphy, painting > a > landscape, playing the game of Go (wei-qi) and hitting a target with the > bow > and arrow were considered part of the training, alongside of memorizing > the > Confucian classics and sitting for an essay exam (I don't think they had > multiple-choice tests in the Ming dynasty). At least that was the > institutional / nobility training for a long time. In " traditional " days, > I'm sure that memorization included reciting whole passages from the Nei > jing and Shang han lun, not just remembering the order of the 5 phases. > Sun > Si-Miao talks about evening knowing astrology and mantic arts as a > pre-requisite to becoming a well-rounded doctor. > > There was also apprenticeship-style training in villages > (non-institutional), but I'm sure all of the good docs read and recited > from > the classics as well. Otherwise, you just gave everyone the same 3 > herbs... > a bitter one, a pungent one and probably Gan cao. > > K > > > > On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 5:09 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus < > magisterium_magnum wrote: > >> >> >> Sorry, 12 semesters. >> >> >> - >> " Mercurius Trismegistus " >> <magisterium_magnum<magisterium_magnum%40comcast.net> >> > >> To: >> <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> >> > >> Sunday, April 25, 2010 2:23 AM >> Re: Re: Degrees >> >> > You're saying I have 10 semesters of postgrad and I haven't earned a >> > doctorate? >> > As for quality of work, I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring >> > to >> > the fact that some schools are better than others? That's neither here >> > nor >> > there. >> > Are you saying that the TCM curriculum as such is substandard, and we >> > could >> > study it for ten years and still be inadequate? I seem to get pretty >> > good >> > results from my treatments. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > - >> > " Joe Messey " <joe.messey <joe.messey%40gmail.com>> >> > To: >> > <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> >> > >> > Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:13 AM >> > Re: Re: Degrees >> > >> > >> >> Alon said: >> >> the final papers i have seen coming out of DAOM programs (only a few) >> are >> >> not even in a level of an undergrad term paper >> >> >> >> Mercurius said: >> >> A DAOM is not a research emphasis degree.. >> >> >> >> Joe sez: >> >> wasn't the point about the low quality of work? not whether the degree >> is >> >> based on a paper. If you want to be called " doctor " you should at >> >> least >> >> be >> >> able to write an appropriate paper. The school shouldn't be holding >> >> you >> >> back >> >> - make it shorter... >> >> >> >> Have gone to some DAOM classes as CEU - most of the " clinic " was >> >> demo - >> >> Doctor candidates should be seeing 100s of patients with supervision >> >> (minimal?) not watching... >> >> >> >> some of the participants were quite happy - good >> >> many said that about 1/2 the classes were good to excellent >> >> 1/2 of the classes were poor to painful >> >> sound familiar? where have I had a similar experience? >> >> >> >> >> >> To claim to be a " Doctor " of Chinese medicine should represent >> >> something >> >> much, much higher than so many extra CEU classes. When I was in >> >> school, >> >> my >> >> teachers recited - " it takes 10 years to make a doctor " >> >> 6 years in school >> >> 4 years supervised hospital experience and many, many 1000s of patient >> >> contacts >> >> and they did it in Chinese >> >> >> >> me thinks that many want what they haven't earned >> >> >> >> >> >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 Hi Kim: -Kim-- I still don't see how the FPD - or any internal tweaking of our educational standards - will put a stop to the usurpation of acupuncture by others. Sorry, but I don't think you're making your case. --- I can agree with much of what you say, and while I am not sure if an FPD is the thing to do at this time, I strongly agree that it will not do anything to stop the usurpation of our medicine. As much as I dislike saying this, since it doesn't fit with my ideals, the only thing that will stop usurpation is law, and that means lawyers. Dedicated lawyers. It worked and works for the osteopaths, the chiropractors and the naturopaths, it will work for us (it has worked for us when we've actually used them). Law has little to do with the " hard " sciences, and at its deepest levels has to do with social justice. This binds law inextricably with cultural values and more fundamental human values, such as freedom and choice. This is a major route for us to take to protect our profession. I don't know if you believe this, Kath, but I agree that the FPD won't do anything to protect us in and of itself. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 In some states, it's not even possible to become a licensed acupuncturist. In many states, mine included, a Masters degree is NOT a requirement for licensing, so we don't even have a Masters degree entry level yet. Considering that the scope of practice in my state, as well as other states, consists of only acupuncture, (herbs are not in scope, let alone being a primary care provider), it seems like the Masters level as an entry level would be an over-kill. MDs and chiros can needle clients with far fewer hours of training in acupuncture, and they are far more likely to be able to get insurance reimbursement for clients. More hours of schooling won't correct this. This is a political battle, and if no one is swayed by the Masters degree, why will a FPD suddenly make the public aware that the MD or chiro has little training, vs. the thousands of hours of training that I have? The public is unaware of the difference in training, and there isn't likely to be a change in legal status that corrects this in our favor. I can't get malpractice insurance for using herbs, since it's not in scope of practice. I love working with herbs, and feel that they're not only valuable, but often critical. But, without malpractice insurance, I'm taking a signficant risk when I prescibe them for clients. The FPD won't change this. The quality of classes for the Masters degree no doubt varies from school to school, but from what I've seen, can be poor. (I have a MSOM.) Why is adding more poor quality schooling a good idea? Why not provide a better education for the classes that are currently being taken? Do other Masters level programs allow people to flunk exams, retake the same exam, and then pass? Why can people get clinic credit when someone else does the work? (Both of these were common at my school.) There are so many problems with the current training that it seems like that should be cleaned up first, before requiring more money and time to be spent to achieve a FPD. Whether one does just the acupuncture training, or goes on for the Masters or doctoral programs, it's difficult to earn a living in the field in many states. It sounds like in some states, (with a broader scope of practice, perhaps?), people do well, but I don't know many people in my area who stay within the law, (i.e. no insurance fraud, staying within bounds of our training. etc.), who have high levels of income from acupuncture. Should people be required to spend even more money, and go further into debt, to struggle to make a living? We all take CEU classes, (both for required credits, and, hopefully, for our continued learning), and have the opportunity to enhance our learning, focusing on the areas that will most benefit our own particular pratices. For those who want the doctoral title, they have the opportunity to pursue that. I don't see the benefit of requiring the FPD, especially considering the poor quality of current classes, the limited scope of practice that many of us have, MDs and chiros being able to do what we do with so little training, and the current state of the economy. JP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 JP, You are partially missing the issue with the FPD here. We need to educate both the public and the legislators and having an entry level doctorate makes more sense for expanding your scope of independent practice. A lawsuit was actually used to jump start CA legislation and may have been used in another state as well, although not sure of this detail. You also need to convince your fellow state acupuncturists that a legal change is necessary. There are many good points you bring up but the answers might not directly be connected with the FPD issue. On the other hand, having an FPD could make it easier to argue for these changes in your legislature. States that did not enact legislation decades ago appear to be more the ones that gave acupuncture away to others. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine kurvenal Sun, 25 Apr 2010 13:47:02 -0500 Re: Degrees In some states, it's not even possible to become a licensed acupuncturist. In many states, mine included, a Masters degree is NOT a requirement for licensing, so we don't even have a Masters degree entry level yet. Considering that the scope of practice in my state, as well as other states, consists of only acupuncture, (herbs are not in scope, let alone being a primary care provider), it seems like the Masters level as an entry level would be an over-kill. MDs and chiros can needle clients with far fewer hours of training in acupuncture, and they are far more likely to be able to get insurance reimbursement for clients. More hours of schooling won't correct this. This is a political battle, and if no one is swayed by the Masters degree, why will a FPD suddenly make the public aware that the MD or chiro has little training, vs. the thousands of hours of training that I have? The public is unaware of the difference in training, and there isn't likely to be a change in legal status that corrects this in our favor. I can't get malpractice insurance for using herbs, since it's not in scope of practice. I love working with herbs, and feel that they're not only valuable, but often critical. But, without malpractice insurance, I'm taking a signficant risk when I prescibe them for clients. The FPD won't change this. The quality of classes for the Masters degree no doubt varies from school to school, but from what I've seen, can be poor. (I have a MSOM.) Why is adding more poor quality schooling a good idea? Why not provide a better education for the classes that are currently being taken? Do other Masters level programs allow people to flunk exams, retake the same exam, and then pass? Why can people get clinic credit when someone else does the work? (Both of these were common at my school.) There are so many problems with the current training that it seems like that should be cleaned up first, before requiring more money and time to be spent to achieve a FPD. Whether one does just the acupuncture training, or goes on for the Masters or doctoral programs, it's difficult to earn a living in the field in many states. It sounds like in some states, (with a broader scope of practice, perhaps?), people do well, but I don't know many people in my area who stay within the law, (i.e. no insurance fraud, staying within bounds of our training. etc.), who have high levels of income from acupuncture. Should people be required to spend even more money, and go further into debt, to struggle to make a living? We all take CEU classes, (both for required credits, and, hopefully, for our continued learning), and have the opportunity to enhance our learning, focusing on the areas that will most benefit our own particular pratices. For those who want the doctoral title, they have the opportunity to pursue that. I don't see the benefit of requiring the FPD, especially considering the poor quality of current classes, the limited scope of practice that many of us have, MDs and chiros being able to do what we do with so little training, and the current state of the economy. JP _______________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en\ -US:WM_HMP:042010_2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 Yes, much depends upon perception. So when we work for 12 semesters and only recieve a " Masters " degree as a " technician, " what does that make people think? - " " <johnkokko <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, April 25, 2010 4:16 AM Re: Re: Degrees > Kim, > I think we mentioned this before by several voices... > > 1. getting a DAOM vs MS will open doors into hospitals where licensed > acupuncturists will be the ones putting the needles in a body, not an MD > or > PT with 150 hours of training. This is already happening. A few people > have already chimed in on this from their personal experience. > > 2. the FPD (higher standard) will shift the public's perception of us > from > being " technicians " to being " medical practitioners " . If you don't think > that most people see us as 'technicians " who went to a 2 years " technical > school " , you must be living in an area where there are a lot of > acupuncturists and you don't have to do a lot of educating. In most > places in the country, between coasts, we're seen as 'new age quacks', > 'upgraded massage therapists' or 'someone who pokes needles in me and it > hurts!'. We really need to change this perception. One episode on Oprah > is not enough. Even in one of Dr. Oz's books appendix, acupuncture is > listed with a 2 year college pre-requisite and 2000 hours of training > (which > is true in some limited cases). The problem is that on the next page, > you > see twice the amount of training hours for doctors of chiropractic. > > Does it matter what people think? Certainly.. This will also influence > how > the medical establishment perceives us. Like I've written before, we need > to evolve away from the 70's acupuncturist of rebellious mystic and 80's > and > 90's spa-type treatments model to the 21st century model of integrated > medical health care. The FPD is the right direction for that. > > K > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Kim Blankenship > <kuangguiyuwrote: > >> >> >> John - >> >> Please explain how improving our professional standards will prevent us >> from >> being " taken for all of our chips " . >> >> Kim >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:54 AM, >> <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>> >> wrote: >> >> > Kim, >> > I think that it's unreasonable with the resources that we have or don't >> > have >> > with the acupuncture organizations to fight the AMA and the ACA, but it >> is >> > reasonable to improve our own professional standards. >> > >> > K >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Kim Blankenship >> > <kuangguiyu<kuangguiyu%40gmail.com> >> > >wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > JK: >> > > >> > > >> > > " One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical >> > > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing >> " dry >> > > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , >> DCs >> > > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). >> > > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. " >> > > >> > > Creating another degree isn't going to stop the wholesale co-optation >> of >> > > acupuncture by pretty much anybody who wants to use it. What's the >> > possible >> > > connection here? Our state and national leadership needs to get busy >> very >> > > quickly and try to stop this nonsense before it's entirely too late. >> > > We >> > > don't need to up the ante at the table - we need(ed) bouncers at the >> > doors. >> > > >> > > Kim Blankenship, L.Ac. >> > > >> > > >> > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:00 AM, >> > > <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com> >> > <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> >> >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > Kath, >> > > > yes... 4 years of post-grad education ($50 G+) deserves a doctorate >> > > degree >> > > > and there needs to be: >> > > > 1. higher entrance standards >> > > > 2. more classical text and biomedical integration >> > > > 3. more clinical practice (internship / residency) >> > > > >> > > > What we do for the profession today will affect the next generation >> of >> > > > practitioners, >> > > > so we can't just think about our own hides, but the entire >> > > > profession >> > for >> > > > the future. >> > > > >> > > > One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical >> > > > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs >> > > > doing >> > " dry >> > > > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical >> > > > acupuncture " , >> > DCs >> > > > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). >> > > > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our >> > > > chips. >> > > > >> > > > Another thing: >> > > > I'm wondering if some seasoned practitioners are worried that if >> others >> > > > coming out have doctorates >> > > > that this will basically coerce them to have to go back to school >> > > > to have the same degree as people without any professional >> experience, >> > > > but have a more respected degree than they do. >> > > > This same issue comes up in the PT world between Doctors of PT >> > > > and those who graduated without a Doctorate degree. >> > > > >> > > > So, what do y'all think about a " grandfathering-in " program >> > > > (counting >> > > past >> > > > CEU credits, years of working experience etc.) or doctorate degree >> > exam, >> > > or >> > > > online CEUs for doctorate courses ? Would this work? >> > > > >> > > > K >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 7:18 AM, >> > > > <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com> <acukath%40gmail.com >> >>wrote: >> >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > john: agree on all pts. >> > > > > >> > > > > btw: my MSTOM program was 4ys, yr-round intensive and i still >> > > > > only >> > > earned >> > > > a >> > > > > master's. this is an ongoing bone of contention. the MS doesn't >> > reflect >> > > > > the years of schooling and training we have. Patients want to see >> > > > > a >> > > > > doctor. as we are so close in hours at this pt to the dr., we >> > > > > might >> > as >> > > > well >> > > > > go all the way, and get the degree, legitimate title and respect >> that >> > > our >> > > > > prof deserves. also, i believe the pay scale would raise if we >> > > > > had >> > dr. >> > > > > degrees. >> > > > > >> > > > > if we were to go to the dr., we could then become primary health >> care >> > > > > givers >> > > > > in the med system (some states: CA, FL already recognize us this >> > way). >> > > as >> > > > > such, i believe (my Opinion) that we should be trained in basic >> west >> > > > > services, such as ordering and interpreting labs, mri's, >> ultrasounds, >> > > and >> > > > > so >> > > > > on, to the extent that a GP or internist is. this also would set >> > > > > up >> a >> > > > > framework for structure, add'l edu/training and (legitimate) >> > > > > boards >> > > > [boards >> > > > > is another can of worms here, new thread would be appropriate for >> > this >> > > > > topic] for such disciplines as infertility, CA support & tx, >> > > orthopedics, >> > > > > internal med and so on for us to have Real specialties (again, >> > > > specialties >> > > > > is a topic for a New Thread). >> > > > > >> > > > > and hugo: you may not like the idea of structure in edu, but this >> is >> > a >> > > > west >> > > > > country, and as such that's the way our edu system works. this is >> not >> > > to >> > > > > say the is not room for improvement or change in the sys, but it >> > > > > is >> > the >> > > > > current sys that is in place that we must work within if we are >> > > > > to >> be >> > a >> > > > > part/service the mainstream establishment. (for the record, i am >> not >> > a >> > > > > mainstreamer, but i have learned how to accommodate the sys in >> > certain >> > > > > areas >> > > > > when i must. business [which health care is, like it or not] is >> > > > > one >> > of >> > > > > those >> > > > > areas where the mainstream must be accommodated to a certain >> > > > > extent >> > in >> > > > > order >> > > > > for personal survival). >> > > > > >> > > > > my Opinions, >> > > > > >> > > > > kath >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:46 PM, >> > > > > <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com> >> > <johnkokko%40gmail.com> >> > > > <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> >> > > >> > > > > wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > > TCM schools require more memorization and less analyzation than >> > most >> > > > > > post-grad programs.. >> > > > > > TCM schools require no writing skills (essays), but many >> > > > > > quizzing >> > and >> > > > > > testing (multiple choice) and some fill-in-the-blank. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Most post-grad programs require project-creating >> > (business/sciences) >> > > > > and/or >> > > > > > 20-40 page essays per class per semester (humanities) with a >> > > > > > 200+ >> > > page >> > > > > > dissertation scrutinized by a committee with an initial >> > > > > > proposal >> > for >> > > > > > research PhDs. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > TCM colleges are difficult for many in the 1st year and 2nd >> > > > > > years >> > > > > > especially, because it's a new language (pinyin / TCM language) >> and >> > > > > there's >> > > > > > a lot of memorization (stuffing thousands of years of >> foundational >> > > > > material >> > > > > > in one year).. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > In China, isn't the BA program curriculum the same as what is >> > > > considered >> > > > > a >> > > > > > Masters program in the US? So, yes... I believe that what is >> called >> > > > > > post-grad (Masters) program for TCM is really like an >> > > > > > under-grad >> > > > program >> > > > > > for >> > > > > > Chinese medicine. In the US, we need 2 full years to memorize >> > > > > terminology, >> > > > > > diagnostic signs, acupuncture points, herbs and formulas... and >> > > > > > 2 >> > > full >> > > > > > years to analyze and clinically practice the medicine. That's >> > > > > > why >> > I'm >> > > > > > for the FPD. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > K >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > K >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:51 PM, >> > > > > > <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com> <acukath%40gmail.com> >> <acukath%40gmail.com >> >> > > >>wrote: >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > rosemary: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > If we want to see a >> > > > > > > doctoral-level education, the school culture has to change; >> > > > > > > as >> a >> > > > start >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > teachers salaries need to be increased to the point where >> > > > > > > they >> > > match >> > > > > > > salaries of other professionals teaching in universities. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > i couldn't agree with you more on this issue. the local acu >> > college >> > > > in >> > > > > my >> > > > > > > town pays (incrediably) $25/hr! painters make more than that. >> > pcom, >> > > i >> > > > > > > understand, pays $45. part of the problem is that our >> > > > > > > teachers >> > are >> > > > not >> > > > > > > professors. i feel they should be, but it's more thatn a >> > > > > > > matter >> > of >> > > > > > handing >> > > > > > > out a title, there are requirements that go with the prof >> title, >> > > > which >> > > > > i >> > > > > > > feel our academics & schools should meet. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > part of the pay problem, as i see (you men may disagree) is >> that >> > we >> > > > are >> > > > > a >> > > > > > > female dominated profession, and women make 75% of what men >> make. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > my Opinion folks, >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > kath >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > -- >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Oriental Medicine >> > > > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Abstain from all that is evil. >> > > > > > > Perform all that is good. >> > > > > > > Purify your thoughts. >> > > > > > > This is the teaching of the Buddhas. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Follow Your Bliss! >> > > > > > > Joseph Campbell >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & >> > Spirituality: >> > > > > > > http://acukath.blogspot.com/ >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & >> > joints >> > > > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist >> > > > > > > Available at Asheville Center for : >> > > > > > > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Amazon.com >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > and from the following supply companies: >> > > > > > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown >> > > > > > > >> > > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, >> NC >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Asheville Center For >> > > > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two >> > > > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 >> > > > > > > kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> >> > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> >> > > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> >> > > > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 What's the difference? Do you think our classes are only 30 minutes long? Yeah, a Phd takes 8 years. Meanwhile, I did 4 years undergrad and 6 years postgrad. Doesn't that make it 10 years? So why am I just getting a Masters degree? Yeah, the 6 years is crammed into four, because we also go to school in the summer. So, like you say, let's count the hours. Now you think I should do two more years, when there isn't even any more curriculum to study? Please. I'm getting to be done with this topic. It's to the point where it's repetitive. I know that people who have already worked the extra years to get their doctorate don't want all the rest of us to be automatically recognized on the doctoral level, be let's tell it like it is. We did the work, and we learned all of the material. We should get what we deserve. And there is no need for ad hominems. Yeah, alot of hippies take up TCM. That doesn't mean they can't read or write. And if you don't think the curriculum is up to par, switch schools. Don't act like the subject matter as such is unrigorous. Thank you. - " " <johnkokko <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, April 25, 2010 3:43 AM Re: Re: Degrees > MT, > which school do you attend? > > I think that looking at the total hours is a better barometer than how > many > quarters, trimesters or semesters you attend in TCM college. In CA, the > minimum hours for graduates to sit for the CA acupuncture licensing exam > is > 3000. > > I agree that this is the longest Masters program in the world, but if you > take into account that many people don't come in with a BA/BS degree, it's > fair. If we go another 1000 hours and get a clinical doctorate, that is > also fair (relative to other medical degrees out there)... DC is 4000+ > for > example. > That's why the FPD makes sense. > > In short, TCM college is in my opinion, more difficult (effort, hours) > than > most Masters programs, but is not half as difficult as a PhD program > (people > take an average of 8 years to complete their PhD work... classes, > proposal, > research, dissertation, defense). > > I agree with Alon that even in the TCM world, we should be able to write > an > informative capstone project essay that exceeds 20 pages. One of the main > reasons is because traditionally, writing poetry in calligraphy, painting > a > landscape, playing the game of Go (wei-qi) and hitting a target with the > bow > and arrow were considered part of the training, alongside of memorizing > the > Confucian classics and sitting for an essay exam (I don't think they had > multiple-choice tests in the Ming dynasty). At least that was the > institutional / nobility training for a long time. In " traditional " days, > I'm sure that memorization included reciting whole passages from the Nei > jing and Shang han lun, not just remembering the order of the 5 phases. > Sun > Si-Miao talks about evening knowing astrology and mantic arts as a > pre-requisite to becoming a well-rounded doctor. > > There was also apprenticeship-style training in villages > (non-institutional), but I'm sure all of the good docs read and recited > from > the classics as well. Otherwise, you just gave everyone the same 3 > herbs... > a bitter one, a pungent one and probably Gan cao. > > K > > > > On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 5:09 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus < > magisterium_magnum wrote: > >> >> >> Sorry, 12 semesters. >> >> >> - >> " Mercurius Trismegistus " >> <magisterium_magnum<magisterium_magnum%40comcast.net> >> > >> To: >> <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> >> > >> Sunday, April 25, 2010 2:23 AM >> Re: Re: Degrees >> >> > You're saying I have 10 semesters of postgrad and I haven't earned a >> > doctorate? >> > As for quality of work, I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring >> > to >> > the fact that some schools are better than others? That's neither here >> > nor >> > there. >> > Are you saying that the TCM curriculum as such is substandard, and we >> > could >> > study it for ten years and still be inadequate? I seem to get pretty >> > good >> > results from my treatments. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > - >> > " Joe Messey " <joe.messey <joe.messey%40gmail.com>> >> > To: >> > <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> >> > >> > Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:13 AM >> > Re: Re: Degrees >> > >> > >> >> Alon said: >> >> the final papers i have seen coming out of DAOM programs (only a few) >> are >> >> not even in a level of an undergrad term paper >> >> >> >> Mercurius said: >> >> A DAOM is not a research emphasis degree.. >> >> >> >> Joe sez: >> >> wasn't the point about the low quality of work? not whether the degree >> is >> >> based on a paper. If you want to be called " doctor " you should at >> >> least >> >> be >> >> able to write an appropriate paper. The school shouldn't be holding >> >> you >> >> back >> >> - make it shorter... >> >> >> >> Have gone to some DAOM classes as CEU - most of the " clinic " was >> >> demo - >> >> Doctor candidates should be seeing 100s of patients with supervision >> >> (minimal?) not watching... >> >> >> >> some of the participants were quite happy - good >> >> many said that about 1/2 the classes were good to excellent >> >> 1/2 of the classes were poor to painful >> >> sound familiar? where have I had a similar experience? >> >> >> >> >> >> To claim to be a " Doctor " of Chinese medicine should represent >> >> something >> >> much, much higher than so many extra CEU classes. When I was in >> >> school, >> >> my >> >> teachers recited - " it takes 10 years to make a doctor " >> >> 6 years in school >> >> 4 years supervised hospital experience and many, many 1000s of patient >> >> contacts >> >> and they did it in Chinese >> >> >> >> me thinks that many want what they haven't earned >> >> >> >> >> >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 > also, i believe the pay scale would raise if we had dr. degrees. What pay scale? Most acupuncturists are self-employed. Will malpractice insurance rates go up? My legal scope of practice will remain the same, (just acupuncture), but if there is a perceived increase in scope because of a " dr. degree " , will malpractice insurance increase to be more in line with someone with a " dr. degree " , who are primary health care providers? I don't need my expenses increased so some of you can have a " dr " title, but I'm still only able to do acupuncture legally. JP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 Cool, maybe you can work for 12 semesters and also get a Masters degree in Chinese Classical studies. - " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Sunday, April 25, 2010 10:47 AM RE: Re: Degrees > > I am not sure what your education contained but I am continually learning > and reviewing information that I might not have remembered. This is since > graduation 15 years ago. There is so much here to learn that it is not > really possible to access much of it and I am only speaking of what is in > English. I am getting deeper into the classical texts currently and plan > to undertake seminars with a classical scholar. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > Chinese Medicine > magisterium_magnum > Sun, 25 Apr 2010 12:35:48 -0700 > Re: Re: Degrees > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's the difference? Do you think our classes are only 30 minutes > long? > > Yeah, a Phd takes 8 years. Meanwhile, I did 4 years undergrad and 6 years > > postgrad. Doesn't that make it 10 years? So why am I just getting a > > Masters degree? > > Yeah, the 6 years is crammed into four, because we also go to school in > the > > summer. So, like you say, let's count the hours. > > Now you think I should do two more years, when there isn't even any more > > curriculum to study? Please. > > > > I'm getting to be done with this topic. It's to the point where it's > > repetitive. I know that people who have already worked the extra years to > > get their doctorate don't want all the rest of us to be automatically > > recognized on the doctoral level, be let's tell it like it is. We did the > > work, and we learned all of the material. We should get what we deserve. > > And there is no need for ad hominems. Yeah, alot of hippies take up TCM. > > That doesn't mean they can't read or write. And if you don't think the > > curriculum is up to par, switch schools. Don't act like the subject > matter > > as such is unrigorous. Thank you. > > > > - > > " " <johnkokko > > <Chinese Medicine > > > Sunday, April 25, 2010 3:43 AM > > Re: Re: Degrees > > > >> MT, > >> which school do you attend? > >> > >> I think that looking at the total hours is a better barometer than how > >> many > >> quarters, trimesters or semesters you attend in TCM college. In CA, the > >> minimum hours for graduates to sit for the CA acupuncture licensing exam > >> is > >> 3000. > >> > >> I agree that this is the longest Masters program in the world, but if you > >> take into account that many people don't come in with a BA/BS degree, >> it's > >> fair. If we go another 1000 hours and get a clinical doctorate, that is > >> also fair (relative to other medical degrees out there)... DC is 4000+ > >> for > >> example. > >> That's why the FPD makes sense. > >> > >> In short, TCM college is in my opinion, more difficult (effort, hours) > >> than > >> most Masters programs, but is not half as difficult as a PhD program > >> (people > >> take an average of 8 years to complete their PhD work... classes, > >> proposal, > >> research, dissertation, defense). > >> > >> I agree with Alon that even in the TCM world, we should be able to write > >> an > >> informative capstone project essay that exceeds 20 pages. One of the >> main > >> reasons is because traditionally, writing poetry in calligraphy, painting > >> a > >> landscape, playing the game of Go (wei-qi) and hitting a target with the > >> bow > >> and arrow were considered part of the training, alongside of memorizing > >> the > >> Confucian classics and sitting for an essay exam (I don't think they had > >> multiple-choice tests in the Ming dynasty). At least that was the > >> institutional / nobility training for a long time. In " traditional " >> days, > >> I'm sure that memorization included reciting whole passages from the Nei > >> jing and Shang han lun, not just remembering the order of the 5 phases. > >> Sun > >> Si-Miao talks about evening knowing astrology and mantic arts as a > >> pre-requisite to becoming a well-rounded doctor. > >> > >> There was also apprenticeship-style training in villages > >> (non-institutional), but I'm sure all of the good docs read and recited > >> from > >> the classics as well. Otherwise, you just gave everyone the same 3 > >> herbs... > >> a bitter one, a pungent one and probably Gan cao. > >> > >> K > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 5:09 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus < > >> magisterium_magnum wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> Sorry, 12 semesters. > >>> > >>> > >>> - > >>> " Mercurius Trismegistus " > >>> <magisterium_magnum<magisterium_magnum%40comcast.net> > >>> > > >>> To: > >>> <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> > >>> > > >>> Sunday, April 25, 2010 2:23 AM > >>> Re: Re: Degrees > >>> > >>> > You're saying I have 10 semesters of postgrad and I haven't earned a > >>> > doctorate? > >>> > As for quality of work, I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring > >>> > to > >>> > the fact that some schools are better than others? That's neither here > >>> > nor > >>> > there. > >>> > Are you saying that the TCM curriculum as such is substandard, and we > >>> > could > >>> > study it for ten years and still be inadequate? I seem to get pretty > >>> > good > >>> > results from my treatments. > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > - > >>> > " Joe Messey " <joe.messey <joe.messey%40gmail.com>> > >>> > To: > >>> > <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> > >>> > > >>> > Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:13 AM > >>> > Re: Re: Degrees > >>> > > >>> > > >>> >> Alon said: > >>> >> the final papers i have seen coming out of DAOM programs (only a few) > >>> are > >>> >> not even in a level of an undergrad term paper > >>> >> > >>> >> Mercurius said: > >>> >> A DAOM is not a research emphasis degree.. > >>> >> > >>> >> Joe sez: > >>> >> wasn't the point about the low quality of work? not whether the >>> >> degree > >>> is > >>> >> based on a paper. If you want to be called " doctor " you should at > >>> >> least > >>> >> be > >>> >> able to write an appropriate paper. The school shouldn't be holding > >>> >> you > >>> >> back > >>> >> - make it shorter... > >>> >> > >>> >> Have gone to some DAOM classes as CEU - most of the " clinic " was > >>> >> demo - > >>> >> Doctor candidates should be seeing 100s of patients with supervision > >>> >> (minimal?) not watching... > >>> >> > >>> >> some of the participants were quite happy - good > >>> >> many said that about 1/2 the classes were good to excellent > >>> >> 1/2 of the classes were poor to painful > >>> >> sound familiar? where have I had a similar experience? > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> To claim to be a " Doctor " of Chinese medicine should represent > >>> >> something > >>> >> much, much higher than so many extra CEU classes. When I was in > >>> >> school, > >>> >> my > >>> >> teachers recited - " it takes 10 years to make a doctor " > >>> >> 6 years in school > >>> >> 4 years supervised hospital experience and many, many 1000s of >>> >> patient > >>> >> contacts > >>> >> and they did it in Chinese > >>> >> > >>> >> me thinks that many want what they haven't earned > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 > One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing " dry > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , DCs > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. As Kim said: " We don't need to up the ante at the table - we need(ed) bouncers at the doors. " You could add another 5 years of training on the requirement for us to get licensed, but that won't change the fact that MDs, chiros, and others are able to legally do what we do with 100 or so hours of training. That's a legal battle, and it's unlikely that MDs and chiros, or anyone else who can currently do acupuncture without our training, is going to agree to any changes that require them to have more training. I think that the best that we can hope for is protecting what turf we have left, and I don't know if we have enough political clout to even do that. If you want to improve our professional standards, though, (as JK said), a good place to start would be with the existing training. Create better quality classes, rather than more poor quality classes. JP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 JP, There is no way to know beforehand if any of these will change with the FPD. Your insurance is up to your carrier and your scope is up to your state legislature. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine kurvenal Sun, 25 Apr 2010 14:41:51 -0500 Re: Degrees > also, i believe the pay scale would raise if we had dr. degrees. What pay scale? Most acupuncturists are self-employed. Will malpractice insurance rates go up? My legal scope of practice will remain the same, (just acupuncture), but if there is a perceived increase in scope because of a " dr. degree " , will malpractice insurance increase to be more in line with someone with a " dr. degree " , who are primary health care providers? I don't need my expenses increased so some of you can have a " dr " title, but I'm still only able to do acupuncture legally. JP _______________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en\ -US:WM_HMP:042010_3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 Yeah? So I did all that, then did 12 more semesters. " Ahem. " So, counting the extra hours, that I didn't include, that would be 15 more semesters. I've never seen so many non-sequitors bandied about. In case you don't follow, I DID start all over. But thanks for inquiring. I know it's hard to swallow for people who did all the extra work on top of the 6 year Masters degree to get the 8 year doctoral (or is it 10? Not sure if the doctoral also requires 3 semesters per year.) But let's please try to be civil about this. I'm tired of this series of personal attacks, and I'm tired of people attacking the curriculum itself, as if it's somehow " unrigorous. " I don't mean to make anyone's position feel threatened. I'm just trying to ask for what's fair. - " Jan Aymar " <janaymar <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, April 25, 2010 11:24 AM Re: Re: Degrees Mercurius asks: " Meanwhile, I did 4 years undergrad and 6 years postgrad. Doesn't that make it 10 years? So why am I just getting a Masters degree? " Jan: I thought you answered that yourself a few days ago: " I have a BS in philosophy, 3/4 of a Masters in philosophy and was an independent researcher at the Institute for Philosophical Studies in Green Bay for 11 years. " So, you study philosophy and you want a doctorate in... Chinese medicine... while i command you for extensive studies, the dean would say... sorry buddy, you're going to have to start all over. You also say: " I am familiar with " critical thinking. " " Ahem. Jan Aymar, L.Ac., MERD. Aymar & Cooley Associates ________________________________ Mercurius Trismegistus <magisterium_magnum Chinese Medicine Sun, April 25, 2010 12:35:48 PM Re: Re: Degrees What's the difference? Do you think our classes are only 30 minutes long? Yeah, a Phd takes 8 years. Meanwhile, I did 4 years undergrad and 6 years postgrad. Doesn't that make it 10 years? So why am I just getting a Masters degree? Yeah, the 6 years is crammed into four, because we also go to school in the summer. So, like you say, let's count the hours. Now you think I should do two more years, when there isn't even any more curriculum to study? Please. I'm getting to be done with this topic. It's to the point where it's repetitive. I know that people who have already worked the extra years to get their doctorate don't want all the rest of us to be automatically recognized on the doctoral level, be let's tell it like it is. We did the work, and we learned all of the material. We should get what we deserve. And there is no need for ad hominems. Yeah, alot of hippies take up TCM. That doesn't mean they can't read or write. And if you don't think the curriculum is up to par, switch schools. Don't act like the subject matter as such is unrigorous. Thank you. - " " <johnkokko <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, April 25, 2010 3:43 AM Re: Re: Degrees > MT, > which school do you attend? > > I think that looking at the total hours is a better barometer than how > many > quarters, trimesters or semesters you attend in TCM college. In CA, the > minimum hours for graduates to sit for the CA acupuncture licensing exam > is > 3000. > > I agree that this is the longest Masters program in the world, but if you > take into account that many people don't come in with a BA/BS degree, it's > fair. If we go another 1000 hours and get a clinical doctorate, that is > also fair (relative to other medical degrees out there)... DC is 4000+ > for > example. > That's why the FPD makes sense. > > In short, TCM college is in my opinion, more difficult (effort, hours) > than > most Masters programs, but is not half as difficult as a PhD program > (people > take an average of 8 years to complete their PhD work... classes, > proposal, > research, dissertation, defense). > > I agree with Alon that even in the TCM world, we should be able to write > an > informative capstone project essay that exceeds 20 pages. One of the main > reasons is because traditionally, writing poetry in calligraphy, painting > a > landscape, playing the game of Go (wei-qi) and hitting a target with the > bow > and arrow were considered part of the training, alongside of memorizing > the > Confucian classics and sitting for an essay exam (I don't think they had > multiple-choice tests in the Ming dynasty). At least that was the > institutional / nobility training for a long time. In " traditional " days, > I'm sure that memorization included reciting whole passages from the Nei > jing and Shang han lun, not just remembering the order of the 5 phases. > Sun > Si-Miao talks about evening knowing astrology and mantic arts as a > pre-requisite to becoming a well-rounded doctor. > > There was also apprenticeship-style training in villages > (non-institutional), but I'm sure all of the good docs read and recited > from > the classics as well. Otherwise, you just gave everyone the same 3 > herbs... > a bitter one, a pungent one and probably Gan cao. > > K > > > > On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 5:09 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus < > magisterium_magnum wrote: > >> >> >> Sorry, 12 semesters. >> >> >> - >> " Mercurius Trismegistus " >> <magisterium_magnum<magisterium_magnum%40comcast.net> >> > >> To: >> <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> >> > >> Sunday, April 25, 2010 2:23 AM >> Re: Re: Degrees >> >> > You're saying I have 10 semesters of postgrad and I haven't earned a >> > doctorate? >> > As for quality of work, I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring >> > to >> > the fact that some schools are better than others? That's neither here >> > nor >> > there. >> > Are you saying that the TCM curriculum as such is substandard, and we >> > could >> > study it for ten years and still be inadequate? I seem to get pretty >> > good >> > results from my treatments. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > - >> > " Joe Messey " <joe.messey <joe.messey%40gmail.com>> >> > To: >> > <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> >> > >> > Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:13 AM >> > Re: Re: Degrees >> > >> > >> >> Alon said: >> >> the final papers i have seen coming out of DAOM programs (only a few) >> are >> >> not even in a level of an undergrad term paper >> >> >> >> Mercurius said: >> >> A DAOM is not a research emphasis degree.. >> >> >> >> Joe sez: >> >> wasn't the point about the low quality of work? not whether the degree >> is >> >> based on a paper. If you want to be called " doctor " you should at >> >> least >> >> be >> >> able to write an appropriate paper. The school shouldn't be holding >> >> you >> >> back >> >> - make it shorter... >> >> >> >> Have gone to some DAOM classes as CEU - most of the " clinic " was >> >> demo - >> >> Doctor candidates should be seeing 100s of patients with supervision >> >> (minimal?) not watching... >> >> >> >> some of the participants were quite happy - good >> >> many said that about 1/2 the classes were good to excellent >> >> 1/2 of the classes were poor to painful >> >> sound familiar? where have I had a similar experience? >> >> >> >> >> >> To claim to be a " Doctor " of Chinese medicine should represent >> >> something >> >> much, much higher than so many extra CEU classes. When I was in >> >> school, >> >> my >> >> teachers recited - " it takes 10 years to make a doctor " >> >> 6 years in school >> >> 4 years supervised hospital experience and many, many 1000s of patient >> >> contacts >> >> and they did it in Chinese >> >> >> >> me thinks that many want what they haven't earned >> >> >> >> >> >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 To be clear, what you're saying is that the Masters degree should require 12 semesters, because you're afraid that your insurance rates might change? - " kurvenal " <kurvenal <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, April 25, 2010 12:41 PM Re: Degrees >> also, i believe the pay scale would raise if we had dr. degrees. > > What pay scale? Most acupuncturists are self-employed. > > Will malpractice insurance rates go up? My legal scope of practice will > remain the same, (just acupuncture), but if there is a perceived increase > in > scope because of a " dr. degree " , will malpractice insurance increase to be > more in line with someone with a " dr. degree " , who are primary health care > providers? I don't need my expenses increased so some of you can have a > " dr " > title, but I'm still only able to do acupuncture legally. > > JP > > > > > --- > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine > and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 This is because we have a profession that keeps attempting to create our own reality. You have some experience outside the profession and education that provides a better lens to examine us. Many in the profession lack outside degrees and some never received more then two years in college. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine alonmarcus Sat, 24 Apr 2010 10:10:24 -0700 Re: Degrees the final papers i have seen coming out of DAOM programs (only a few) are not even in a level of an undergrad term paper, they do not even come close to a doctorate dissertation. I have seen one done by a very smart Harvard undergrad graduate were i was told she was limited in what she was allowed to do in terms of size being told to keep it quite short. I have also been told by some that have done such programs up here in northern ca that 90% of what they did was a waste of time. Very little was really new for them and was mostly more of the same. I wander what % of DAOM graduates really think it was worth the time 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 Me too. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > Chinese Traditional Medicine > don83407 > Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:24:23 -0500 > RE: Re: Degrees > > > Richard, > > > > Much of what you say is true, we are apathetic. That is the very reason that we must support our national organizations. We pay them them to not be apathetic. That is why the MDs and DC have powerful lobbies. As individuals, MDs and DCs are no different that us; they, too, are apathetic. But their organization are not. > > > > Secondly, and I don't want to appear to be attacking anyone, but you made some statements that need to be defined. You state that these organization were " formed and controlled since their inception by one person and his cronies. " The magic question is: Who would that one person and what would be the names of his " cronies? " Are they still around. > > > > It must be noted that any one of us can run for the office of one of our national organization and probably get elected, as nobody really wants the jobs. (usually only one person runs unopposed). > > > > Anyway, I have often heard these rumors and since you brought it up, I would really like to be enlightened. > > > > Thanks, > > > > I am sincerely, > > > > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > > > Chinese Medicine > acudoc11 > Sat, 24 Apr 2010 12:04:41 -0400 > Re: Re: Degrees > > > > > > Look back to the inception of ALL of those national organizations. > Formed and controlled since their inception by one person with his cronies. > And they had their own agenda ......IMO to be primarily needle stickers. > So whether the apathetic starving majority gave money or not there were > zero positive results. > In part the attempt to create a new Accrediting agency which apparently > failed. > In part the creation of our AOMNCC which actually succeeded but not for > money. > At one point the AOMNCC has as many members if not more than AAAOM. > But alas....the majority of practitioners are apathetic. > Appears to be the same with all professions. > > Richard > > > In a message dated 4/24/2010 11:57:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > don83407 writes: > > This is so true. I am a due paying member of the our (so called powerful) > nation groups and I often don't feel represented at all. They are our > bouncers and they are not doing their job. I believe (perhaps incorrectly) > that their resources are so limited that they must pick-and-choose their > issues. Aside from our wayward organizations, a big problem is lack of > support (and funding) of our organizations. Not many of us " belong. " We need to > put our money where our mouth is; but our mouth is always where our money > and support is not. If we all contributed, then if an organization began > to change direction, we could withhold our support. That would necessitate > change within the organization. But for some reason we do not support our > organizations for whatever reason (there is always an excuse). > > Perhaps that is what needs to be done, whether we like it or not. > > Sincerely, > > Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > Chinese Medicine > kuangguiyu > Sat, 24 Apr 2010 08:43:19 -0700 > Re: Re: Degrees > > JK: > > " One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing " dry > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , DCs > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. " > > Creating another degree isn't going to stop the wholesale co-optation of > acupuncture by pretty much anybody who wants to use it. What's the possible > connection here? Our state and national leadership needs to get busy very > quickly and try to stop this nonsense before it's entirely too late. We > don't need to up the ante at the table - we need(ed) bouncers at the doors. > > Kim Blankenship, L.Ac. > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:00 AM, <johnkokko wrote: > > > Kath, > > yes... 4 years of post-grad education ($50 G+) deserves a doctorate deg > ree > > and there needs to be: > > 1. higher entrance standards > > 2. more classical text and biomedical integration > > 3. more clinical practice (internship / residency) > > > > What we do for the profession today will affect the next generation of > > practitioners, > > so we can't just think about our own hides, but the entire profession for > > the future. > > > > One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical > > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing " dry > > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , DCs > > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). > > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. > > > > Another thing: > > I'm wondering if some seasoned practitioners are worried that if others > > coming out have doctorates > > that this will basically coerce them to have to go back to school > > to have the same degree as people without any professional experience, > > but have a more respected degree than they do. > > This same issue comes up in the PT world between Doctors of PT > > and those who graduated without a Doctorate degree. > > > > So, what do y'all think about a " grandfathering-in " program (counting > past > > CEU credits, years of working experience etc.) or doctorate degree exam, > or > > online CEUs for doctorate courses ? Would this work? > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 7:18 AM, > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > john: agree on all pts. > > > > > > btw: my MSTOM program was 4ys, yr-round intensive and i still only > earned > > a > > > master's. this is an ongoing bone of contention. the MS doesn't > reflect > > > the years of schooling and training we have. Patients want to see a > > > doctor. as we are so close in hours at this pt to the dr., we might as > > well > > > go all the way, and get the degree, legitimate title and respect that > our > > > prof deserves. also, i believe the pay scale would raise if we had dr. > > > degrees. > > > > > > if we were to go to the dr., we could then become primary health care > > > givers > > > in the med system (some states: CA, FL already recognize us this way). > as > > > such, i believe (my Opinion) that we should be trained in basic west > > > services, such as ordering and interpreting labs, mri's, ultrasounds, > and > > > so > > > on, to the extent that a GP or internist is. this also would set up a > > > framework for structure, add'l edu/training and (legitimate) boards > > [boards > > > is another can of worms here, new thread would be appropriate for this > > > topic] for such disciplines as infertility, CA support & tx, > orthopedics, > > > internal med and so on for us to have Real specialties (again, > > specialties > > > is a topic for a New Thread). > > > > > > and hugo: you may not like the idea of structure in edu, but this is a > > west > > > country, and as such that's the way our edu system works. this is not > to > > > say the is not room for improvement or change in the sys, but it is the > > > current sys that is in place that we must work within if we are to be > a > > > part/service the mainstream establishment. (for the record, i am not a > > > mainstreamer, but i have learned how to accommodate the sys in certain > > > areas > > > when i must. business [which health care is, like it or not] is one of > > > those > > > areas where the mainstream must be accommodated to a certain extent in > > > order > > > for personal survival). > > > > > > my Opinions, > > > > > > kath > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:46 PM, <johnkokko > > <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > TCM schools require more memorization and less analyzation than most > > > > post-grad programs.. > > > > TCM schools require no writing skills (essays), but many quizzing > and > > > > testing (multiple choice) and some fill-in-the-blank. > > > > > > > > Most post-grad programs require project-creating (business/sciences) > > > and/or > > > > 20-40 page essays per class per semester (humanities) with a 200+ > page > > > > dissertation scrutinized by a committee with an initial proposal for > > > > research PhDs. > > > > > > > > TCM colleges are difficult for many in the 1st year and 2nd years > > > > especially, because it's a new language (pinyin / TCM language) and > > > there's > > > > a lot of memorization (stuffing thousands of years of foundational > > > material > > > > in one year).. > > > > > > > > In China, isn't the BA program curriculum the same as what is > > considered > > > a > > > > Masters program in the US? So, yes... I believe that what is called > > > > post-grad (Masters) program for TCM is really like an under-grad > > program > > > > for > > > > Chinese medicine. In the US, we need 2 full years to memorize > > > terminology, > > > > diagnostic signs, acupuncture points, herbs and formulas... and 2 > full > > > > years to analyze and clinically practice the medicine. That's why I'm > > > > for the FPD. > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:51 PM, > > > > <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rosemary: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want to see a > > > > > doctoral-level education, the school culture has to change; as a > > start > > > > the > > > > > teachers salaries need to be increased to the point where they > match > > > > > salaries of other professionals teaching in universities. > > > > > > > > > > i couldn't agree with you more on this issue. the local acu college > > in > > > my > > > > > town pays (incrediably) $25/hr! painters make more than that. > pcom, i > > > > > understand, pays $45. part of the problem is that our teachers are > > not > > > > > professors. i feel they should be, but it's more thatn a matter of > > > > handing > > > > > out a title, there are requirements that go with the prof title, > > which > > > i > > > > > feel our academics & schools should meet. > > > > > > > > > > part of the pay problem, as i see (you men may disagree) is that we > > are > > > a > > > > > female dominated profession, and women make 75% of what men make. > > > > > > > > > > my Opinion folks, > > > > > > > > > > kath > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine > > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > > > > > > > Abstain from all that is evil. > > > > > Perform all that is good. > > > > > Purify your thoughts. > > > > > This is the teaching of the Buddhas. > > > > > > > > > > Follow Your Bliss! > > > > > Joseph Campbell > > > > > > > > > > Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: > > > > > http://acukath.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > > > Available at Asheville Center for : > > > > > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com > > > > > > > > > > Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC > > > > > > > > > > Amazon.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 > > > > > > > > > > and from the following supply companies: > > > > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > > > > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > > > > > > > > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > > > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For > > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > > > kbartlett > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 JP - You said, " Whether one does just the acupuncture training, or goes on for the Masters or doctoral programs, it's difficult to earn a living in the field in many states. " That's one of many excellent points. The FPD would almost certainly add a lot of expense to the educational process and make it even more difficult for many to succeed in practice. The end result might well be more out-of-work acupuncturists carrying even higher levels of debt. IMO a logical way to address the education dilemma would be to: a). have a RIGOROUS, AFFORDABLE two year Master's degree in acupuncture. (This should be easy to structure by removing some of the bloat from current programs.) b). have a RIGOROUS, AFFORDABLE three year MS in acupuncture and herbology. c). continue the already extant DAOM for those who wish to specialize or focus on research. I feel that the profession would benefit merely from having more successful graduates out there making a living and demonstrating to even more people the effectiveness of our medicine. And if it's possible to become affordably " street-legal " , then it follows that it would make it easier for more of these grads to become successful and continue to afford further training should they so desire. I know the schools are concerned about the bottom line, but more affordable training should translate into more students. Kim On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 11:47 AM, kurvenal <kurvenal wrote: > > > In some states, it's not even possible to become a licensed acupuncturist. > > In many states, mine included, a Masters degree is NOT a requirement for > licensing, so we don't even have a Masters degree entry level yet. > > Considering that the scope of practice in my state, as well as other > states, > consists of only acupuncture, (herbs are not in scope, let alone being a > primary care provider), it seems like the Masters level as an entry level > would be an over-kill. MDs and chiros can needle clients with far fewer > hours of training in acupuncture, and they are far more likely to be able > to > get insurance reimbursement for clients. More hours of schooling won't > correct this. This is a political battle, and if no one is swayed by the > Masters degree, why will a FPD suddenly make the public aware that the MD > or > chiro has little training, vs. the thousands of hours of training that I > have? The public is unaware of the difference in training, and there isn't > likely to be a change in legal status that corrects this in our favor. > > I can't get malpractice insurance for using herbs, since it's not in scope > of practice. I love working with herbs, and feel that they're not only > valuable, but often critical. But, without malpractice insurance, I'm > taking > a signficant risk when I prescibe them for clients. The FPD won't change > this. > > The quality of classes for the Masters degree no doubt varies from school > to > school, but from what I've seen, can be poor. (I have a MSOM.) Why is > adding > more poor quality schooling a good idea? Why not provide a better education > > for the classes that are currently being taken? > > Do other Masters level programs allow people to flunk exams, retake the > same > exam, and then pass? Why can people get clinic credit when someone else > does > the work? (Both of these were common at my school.) There are so many > problems with the current training that it seems like that should be > cleaned > up first, before requiring more money and time to be spent to achieve a > FPD. > > Whether one does just the acupuncture training, or goes on for the Masters > or doctoral programs, it's difficult to earn a living in the field in many > states. It sounds like in some states, (with a broader scope of practice, > perhaps?), people do well, but I don't know many people in my area who stay > > within the law, (i.e. no insurance fraud, staying within bounds of our > training. etc.), who have high levels of income from acupuncture. Should > people be required to spend even more money, and go further into debt, to > struggle to make a living? > > We all take CEU classes, (both for required credits, and, hopefully, for > our > continued learning), and have the opportunity to enhance our learning, > focusing on the areas that will most benefit our own particular pratices. > For those who want the doctoral title, they have the opportunity to pursue > that. I don't see the benefit of requiring the FPD, especially considering > the poor quality of current classes, the limited scope of practice that > many > of us have, MDs and chiros being able to do what we do with so little > training, and the current state of the economy. > > JP > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
