Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 Sorry, 12 semesters. - " Mercurius Trismegistus " <magisterium_magnum <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, April 25, 2010 2:23 AM Re: Re: Degrees > You're saying I have 10 semesters of postgrad and I haven't earned a > doctorate? > As for quality of work, I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring to > the fact that some schools are better than others? That's neither here > nor > there. > Are you saying that the TCM curriculum as such is substandard, and we > could > study it for ten years and still be inadequate? I seem to get pretty good > results from my treatments. - > " Joe Messey " <joe.messey > <Chinese Medicine > > Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:13 AM > Re: Re: Degrees > > >> Alon said: >> the final papers i have seen coming out of DAOM programs (only a few) are >> not even in a level of an undergrad term paper >> >> Mercurius said: >> A DAOM is not a research emphasis degree.. >> >> Joe sez: >> wasn't the point about the low quality of work? not whether the degree is >> based on a paper. If you want to be called " doctor " you should at least >> be >> able to write an appropriate paper. The school shouldn't be holding you >> back >> - make it shorter... >> >> Have gone to some DAOM classes as CEU - most of the " clinic " was demo - >> Doctor candidates should be seeing 100s of patients with supervision >> (minimal?) not watching... >> >> some of the participants were quite happy - good >> many said that about 1/2 the classes were good to excellent >> 1/2 of the classes were poor to painful >> sound familiar? where have I had a similar experience? >> >> >> To claim to be a " Doctor " of Chinese medicine should represent something >> much, much higher than so many extra CEU classes. When I was in school, >> my >> teachers recited - " it takes 10 years to make a doctor " >> 6 years in school >> 4 years supervised hospital experience and many, many 1000s of patient >> contacts >> and they did it in Chinese >> >> me thinks that many want what they haven't earned >> >> >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 Z'ev, that is really great. In my classes (even acupuncture technique), I make the students write 3 page essays for their trimester final paper. 4 pages might be pushing it, since many feel overloaded already with other classes and written and practical tests. What has been your experience of your students' writing skills, since many of them don't have this kind of background? (everyone wrote papers in high school English classes, but maybe not in college). This seems essential to be able to communicate effectively, instead of just circling multiple choice dots. Verbalizing concepts uses another side of the brain too (or integrating both halves, depending on how you look at it)... another thing we need to cultivate as practitioners teaching patients. K On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:15 PM, <zrosenbewrote: > > > John, > In my classes (formulas and SHL/Wen Bing) I give only essay tests, and have > students verbalize cases and concepts to develop their logical skills, which > are essential for the study and practice of Chinese medicine. > > > > On Apr 23, 2010, at 5:46 PM, wrote: > > > TCM schools require more memorization and less analyzation than most > > post-grad programs.. > > TCM schools require no writing skills (essays), but many quizzing and > > testing (multiple choice) and some fill-in-the-blank. > > > > Most post-grad programs require project-creating (business/sciences) > and/or > > 20-40 page essays per class per semester (humanities) with a 200+ page > > dissertation scrutinized by a committee with an initial proposal for > > research PhDs. > > > > TCM colleges are difficult for many in the 1st year and 2nd years > > especially, because it's a new language (pinyin / TCM language) and > there's > > a lot of memorization (stuffing thousands of years of foundational > material > > in one year).. > > > > In China, isn't the BA program curriculum the same as what is considered > a > > Masters program in the US? So, yes... I believe that what is called > > post-grad (Masters) program for TCM is really like an under-grad program > for > > Chinese medicine. In the US, we need 2 full years to memorize > terminology, > > diagnostic signs, acupuncture points, herbs and formulas... and 2 full > > years to analyze and clinically practice the medicine. That's why I'm > > for the FPD. > > > > K > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:51 PM, > > <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>>wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> rosemary: > >> > >> > >> If we want to see a > >> doctoral-level education, the school culture has to change; as a start > the > >> teachers salaries need to be increased to the point where they match > >> salaries of other professionals teaching in universities. > >> > >> i couldn't agree with you more on this issue. the local acu college in > my > >> town pays (incrediably) $25/hr! painters make more than that. pcom, i > >> understand, pays $45. part of the problem is that our teachers are not > >> professors. i feel they should be, but it's more thatn a matter of > handing > >> out a title, there are requirements that go with the prof title, which i > >> feel our academics & schools should meet. > >> > >> part of the pay problem, as i see (you men may disagree) is that we are > a > >> female dominated profession, and women make 75% of what men make. > >> > >> my Opinion folks, > >> > >> kath > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Oriental Medicine > >> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > >> > >> Abstain from all that is evil. > >> Perform all that is good. > >> Purify your thoughts. > >> This is the teaching of the Buddhas. > >> > >> Follow Your Bliss! > >> Joseph Campbell > >> > >> Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: > >> http://acukath.blogspot.com/ > >> > >> Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > >> Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > >> Available at Asheville Center for : > >> www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com > >> > >> Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC > >> > >> Amazon.com > >> > >> > http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 > >> > >> and from the following supply companies: > >> Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > >> https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > >> > >> Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > >> > >> > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > >> > >> Asheville Center For > >> 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > >> Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > >> kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com><kbartle\ tt%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > >> www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > >> > >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 MT, which school do you attend? I think that looking at the total hours is a better barometer than how many quarters, trimesters or semesters you attend in TCM college. In CA, the minimum hours for graduates to sit for the CA acupuncture licensing exam is 3000. I agree that this is the longest Masters program in the world, but if you take into account that many people don't come in with a BA/BS degree, it's fair. If we go another 1000 hours and get a clinical doctorate, that is also fair (relative to other medical degrees out there)... DC is 4000+ for example. That's why the FPD makes sense. In short, TCM college is in my opinion, more difficult (effort, hours) than most Masters programs, but is not half as difficult as a PhD program (people take an average of 8 years to complete their PhD work... classes, proposal, research, dissertation, defense). I agree with Alon that even in the TCM world, we should be able to write an informative capstone project essay that exceeds 20 pages. One of the main reasons is because traditionally, writing poetry in calligraphy, painting a landscape, playing the game of Go (wei-qi) and hitting a target with the bow and arrow were considered part of the training, alongside of memorizing the Confucian classics and sitting for an essay exam (I don't think they had multiple-choice tests in the Ming dynasty). At least that was the institutional / nobility training for a long time. In " traditional " days, I'm sure that memorization included reciting whole passages from the Nei jing and Shang han lun, not just remembering the order of the 5 phases. Sun Si-Miao talks about evening knowing astrology and mantic arts as a pre-requisite to becoming a well-rounded doctor. There was also apprenticeship-style training in villages (non-institutional), but I'm sure all of the good docs read and recited from the classics as well. Otherwise, you just gave everyone the same 3 herbs... a bitter one, a pungent one and probably Gan cao. K On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 5:09 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus < magisterium_magnum wrote: > > > Sorry, 12 semesters. > > > - > " Mercurius Trismegistus " <magisterium_magnum<magisterium_magnum%40comcast.net> > > > To: <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> > > > Sunday, April 25, 2010 2:23 AM > Re: Re: Degrees > > > You're saying I have 10 semesters of postgrad and I haven't earned a > > doctorate? > > As for quality of work, I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring to > > the fact that some schools are better than others? That's neither here > > nor > > there. > > Are you saying that the TCM curriculum as such is substandard, and we > > could > > study it for ten years and still be inadequate? I seem to get pretty good > > results from my treatments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > " Joe Messey " <joe.messey <joe.messey%40gmail.com>> > > To: <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> > > > > Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:13 AM > > Re: Re: Degrees > > > > > >> Alon said: > >> the final papers i have seen coming out of DAOM programs (only a few) > are > >> not even in a level of an undergrad term paper > >> > >> Mercurius said: > >> A DAOM is not a research emphasis degree.. > >> > >> Joe sez: > >> wasn't the point about the low quality of work? not whether the degree > is > >> based on a paper. If you want to be called " doctor " you should at least > >> be > >> able to write an appropriate paper. The school shouldn't be holding you > >> back > >> - make it shorter... > >> > >> Have gone to some DAOM classes as CEU - most of the " clinic " was demo - > >> Doctor candidates should be seeing 100s of patients with supervision > >> (minimal?) not watching... > >> > >> some of the participants were quite happy - good > >> many said that about 1/2 the classes were good to excellent > >> 1/2 of the classes were poor to painful > >> sound familiar? where have I had a similar experience? > >> > >> > >> To claim to be a " Doctor " of Chinese medicine should represent something > >> much, much higher than so many extra CEU classes. When I was in school, > >> my > >> teachers recited - " it takes 10 years to make a doctor " > >> 6 years in school > >> 4 years supervised hospital experience and many, many 1000s of patient > >> contacts > >> and they did it in Chinese > >> > >> me thinks that many want what they haven't earned > >> > >> > >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 Kim, I think we mentioned this before by several voices... 1. getting a DAOM vs MS will open doors into hospitals where licensed acupuncturists will be the ones putting the needles in a body, not an MD or PT with 150 hours of training. This is already happening. A few people have already chimed in on this from their personal experience. 2. the FPD (higher standard) will shift the public's perception of us from being " technicians " to being " medical practitioners " . If you don't think that most people see us as 'technicians " who went to a 2 years " technical school " , you must be living in an area where there are a lot of acupuncturists and you don't have to do a lot of educating. In most places in the country, between coasts, we're seen as 'new age quacks', 'upgraded massage therapists' or 'someone who pokes needles in me and it hurts!'. We really need to change this perception. One episode on Oprah is not enough. Even in one of Dr. Oz's books appendix, acupuncture is listed with a 2 year college pre-requisite and 2000 hours of training (which is true in some limited cases). The problem is that on the next page, you see twice the amount of training hours for doctors of chiropractic. Does it matter what people think? Certainly.. This will also influence how the medical establishment perceives us. Like I've written before, we need to evolve away from the 70's acupuncturist of rebellious mystic and 80's and 90's spa-type treatments model to the 21st century model of integrated medical health care. The FPD is the right direction for that. K On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Kim Blankenship <kuangguiyuwrote: > > > John - > > Please explain how improving our professional standards will prevent us > from > being " taken for all of our chips " . > > Kim > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:54 AM, <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > Kim, > > I think that it's unreasonable with the resources that we have or don't > > have > > with the acupuncture organizations to fight the AMA and the ACA, but it > is > > reasonable to improve our own professional standards. > > > > K > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Kim Blankenship <kuangguiyu<kuangguiyu%40gmail.com> > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > JK: > > > > > > > > > " One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical > > > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing > " dry > > > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , > DCs > > > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). > > > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. " > > > > > > Creating another degree isn't going to stop the wholesale co-optation > of > > > acupuncture by pretty much anybody who wants to use it. What's the > > possible > > > connection here? Our state and national leadership needs to get busy > very > > > quickly and try to stop this nonsense before it's entirely too late. We > > > don't need to up the ante at the table - we need(ed) bouncers at the > > doors. > > > > > > Kim Blankenship, L.Ac. > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:00 AM, <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com> > > <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Kath, > > > > yes... 4 years of post-grad education ($50 G+) deserves a doctorate > > > degree > > > > and there needs to be: > > > > 1. higher entrance standards > > > > 2. more classical text and biomedical integration > > > > 3. more clinical practice (internship / residency) > > > > > > > > What we do for the profession today will affect the next generation > of > > > > practitioners, > > > > so we can't just think about our own hides, but the entire profession > > for > > > > the future. > > > > > > > > One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical > > > > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing > > " dry > > > > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , > > DCs > > > > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). > > > > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. > > > > > > > > Another thing: > > > > I'm wondering if some seasoned practitioners are worried that if > others > > > > coming out have doctorates > > > > that this will basically coerce them to have to go back to school > > > > to have the same degree as people without any professional > experience, > > > > but have a more respected degree than they do. > > > > This same issue comes up in the PT world between Doctors of PT > > > > and those who graduated without a Doctorate degree. > > > > > > > > So, what do y'all think about a " grandfathering-in " program (counting > > > past > > > > CEU credits, years of working experience etc.) or doctorate degree > > exam, > > > or > > > > online CEUs for doctorate courses ? Would this work? > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 7:18 AM, > > > > <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com> <acukath%40gmail.com > >>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > john: agree on all pts. > > > > > > > > > > btw: my MSTOM program was 4ys, yr-round intensive and i still only > > > earned > > > > a > > > > > master's. this is an ongoing bone of contention. the MS doesn't > > reflect > > > > > the years of schooling and training we have. Patients want to see a > > > > > doctor. as we are so close in hours at this pt to the dr., we might > > as > > > > well > > > > > go all the way, and get the degree, legitimate title and respect > that > > > our > > > > > prof deserves. also, i believe the pay scale would raise if we had > > dr. > > > > > degrees. > > > > > > > > > > if we were to go to the dr., we could then become primary health > care > > > > > givers > > > > > in the med system (some states: CA, FL already recognize us this > > way). > > > as > > > > > such, i believe (my Opinion) that we should be trained in basic > west > > > > > services, such as ordering and interpreting labs, mri's, > ultrasounds, > > > and > > > > > so > > > > > on, to the extent that a GP or internist is. this also would set up > a > > > > > framework for structure, add'l edu/training and (legitimate) boards > > > > [boards > > > > > is another can of worms here, new thread would be appropriate for > > this > > > > > topic] for such disciplines as infertility, CA support & tx, > > > orthopedics, > > > > > internal med and so on for us to have Real specialties (again, > > > > specialties > > > > > is a topic for a New Thread). > > > > > > > > > > and hugo: you may not like the idea of structure in edu, but this > is > > a > > > > west > > > > > country, and as such that's the way our edu system works. this is > not > > > to > > > > > say the is not room for improvement or change in the sys, but it is > > the > > > > > current sys that is in place that we must work within if we are to > be > > a > > > > > part/service the mainstream establishment. (for the record, i am > not > > a > > > > > mainstreamer, but i have learned how to accommodate the sys in > > certain > > > > > areas > > > > > when i must. business [which health care is, like it or not] is one > > of > > > > > those > > > > > areas where the mainstream must be accommodated to a certain extent > > in > > > > > order > > > > > for personal survival). > > > > > > > > > > my Opinions, > > > > > > > > > > kath > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:46 PM, <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com> > > <johnkokko%40gmail.com> > > > > <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > TCM schools require more memorization and less analyzation than > > most > > > > > > post-grad programs.. > > > > > > TCM schools require no writing skills (essays), but many quizzing > > and > > > > > > testing (multiple choice) and some fill-in-the-blank. > > > > > > > > > > > > Most post-grad programs require project-creating > > (business/sciences) > > > > > and/or > > > > > > 20-40 page essays per class per semester (humanities) with a 200+ > > > page > > > > > > dissertation scrutinized by a committee with an initial proposal > > for > > > > > > research PhDs. > > > > > > > > > > > > TCM colleges are difficult for many in the 1st year and 2nd years > > > > > > especially, because it's a new language (pinyin / TCM language) > and > > > > > there's > > > > > > a lot of memorization (stuffing thousands of years of > foundational > > > > > material > > > > > > in one year).. > > > > > > > > > > > > In China, isn't the BA program curriculum the same as what is > > > > considered > > > > > a > > > > > > Masters program in the US? So, yes... I believe that what is > called > > > > > > post-grad (Masters) program for TCM is really like an under-grad > > > > program > > > > > > for > > > > > > Chinese medicine. In the US, we need 2 full years to memorize > > > > > terminology, > > > > > > diagnostic signs, acupuncture points, herbs and formulas... and 2 > > > full > > > > > > years to analyze and clinically practice the medicine. That's why > > I'm > > > > > > for the FPD. > > > > > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:51 PM, > > > > > > <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com> <acukath%40gmail.com> > <acukath%40gmail.com > > > > >>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rosemary: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want to see a > > > > > > > doctoral-level education, the school culture has to change; as > a > > > > start > > > > > > the > > > > > > > teachers salaries need to be increased to the point where they > > > match > > > > > > > salaries of other professionals teaching in universities. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i couldn't agree with you more on this issue. the local acu > > college > > > > in > > > > > my > > > > > > > town pays (incrediably) $25/hr! painters make more than that. > > pcom, > > > i > > > > > > > understand, pays $45. part of the problem is that our teachers > > are > > > > not > > > > > > > professors. i feel they should be, but it's more thatn a matter > > of > > > > > > handing > > > > > > > out a title, there are requirements that go with the prof > title, > > > > which > > > > > i > > > > > > > feel our academics & schools should meet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > part of the pay problem, as i see (you men may disagree) is > that > > we > > > > are > > > > > a > > > > > > > female dominated profession, and women make 75% of what men > make. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > my Opinion folks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kath > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine > > > > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Abstain from all that is evil. > > > > > > > Perform all that is good. > > > > > > > Purify your thoughts. > > > > > > > This is the teaching of the Buddhas. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Follow Your Bliss! > > > > > > > Joseph Campbell > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & > > Spirituality: > > > > > > > http://acukath.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & > > joints > > > > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > > > > > Available at Asheville Center for : > > > > > > > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amazon.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and from the following supply companies: > > > > > > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > > > > > > > > > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, > NC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For > > > > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > > > > > kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 This is a place for us, I think, to share our information and experience to improve our skills or our jobs perfomance in order to learn something beneficial that may be fruitful for ourselves. Should we discuss about our ego, our school and our degrees of one better than other's? I have seen and learned that a few TCMs, practicing herbs, only in Anaheim, Ca, very successful. About 40 -50 patients per day cash only -no insurance, no Medicare, no Medicaid- eventhough their English tongues were poor, no DAOM, no OMD, just M.S degree. I think we should retarget ourselves to practical, not paper. Our patients are looking into results, not what papers or degrees that we have. Our skills will speak up for all. Thanks, Nam Nguyen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
