First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

March 12, 2010

Most overseas medical degrees do not require a B.S. in pre-med; they simply get

a BM/BS or equivalent in medicine and they say it is " equivalent " to our M.D.

In fact, with a four year BS in medicine they can come here and challenge the

medical boards and practice as an MD. Personally, I do not think that is fair,

but that is life. Therefore, those of us with an MSTOM actually have more

education than the general MD from other countries. However, their education is

more specialized than ours and therefore, it is content, not time, that is

supposedly of importance.

Therefore, we have the hours (perhaps) within our Master's programs to actually

equal the doctorate, but the question is; is our content equal to that of the

doctorate?

Just a thought.

Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> CC: habeas_1

> naturaldoc1

> Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:32:15 +0000

> RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> Richard,

>

> Not sure what " current program " you are talking about as we do not yet have

any FPD in operation. Are you asking about the FPD? Not sure that your numbers

are relevant as the OM profession tends to create its own separate educational

reality.

>

> BTW, there is no discussion of going this route (BS > MS > PhD), that I

recall. Even though this is the common route in China and possibly in Korea.

>

> I see no real issue with adding in a few more classroom hours, more clinical

internship and adjusting the Master's to become a doctorate. I agree that the

master's is way too bloated as such. Would also like to see more rigor in the

courses and a higher educational requirement for entry. That is just me, though.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> Chinese Medicine

> CC: habeas_1

> acudoc11

> Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:03:14 -0500

> Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

Michael

>

> Do tell what the current program is equivalent to in your opinion?

>

> By many who count......it is WAY passed even a PhD at least in terms of

>

> college credits or clock hours.

>

> 60 college credits to get into an acupuncture school and by today's

>

> so-called Masters program another 200 credits (3,000 hours divided by the

>

> standard 15 hrs per credit). That TOTALS 260 credits.

>

> BS = 120 to 128 credits

>

> MS = 32

>

> PhD = 32

>

> Totals approximately 192 credits

>

> So we are apparently ALREADY completing 68 college credits BEYOND a PhD.

>

> Hmmmmmmmm.....I know you will have something interesting to contradict

>

> these FACTS.

>

> Oh...and by the way......WHERE is ACAOM's CONSENSUS on the FPD?

>

> How are they pushing the FPD through without CONSENSUS?

>

> They NEED to PROVE the CONSENSUS.

>

> I am sure Mr Dort Bigg (ED of ACAOM) can shed some light..... if he is

>

> still within lurking distance.

>

> Richard

>

In a message dated 3/12/2010 9:53:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

>

> naturaldoc1 writes:

>

> Not sure where this misinfo is coming from. We are not talking about a

>

> PhD but more then likely a clinical doctorate. I am sure that there will be

>

> more western medicine in an expanded education, like a doctorate (similar

>

> to the DAOM programs I would hope). Your ability to utilize western medical

>

> theory is limited by your state laws. For example, the chiropractors

>

> rely upon orthopedic and neurological exams, which are also part of western

>

> medicine. It is how you use them that matters. So, the big difference is

>

> more knowledge and hopefully more rigor in the curriculum. We tend to covet

>

> the foreign trained practitioners for their expanded knowledge base in both

>

> WM and CM, so now it is up to us to become better.

>

March 12, 2010

Hi Don:

This is an excellent point.

The issue is our educational institutions demanding a higher degree of

performance and command of the material in our existing curriculum. If we could

do this and if what you say is true, that our hours are equivalent or exceed the

doctorate level in China/other countries, our focus is to be more demanding,

have a higher standard in our existing programs and lobby to make our MTOM a

Doctor degree.

Anybody interested in starting a grass roots movement for this lets mobilize and

see what we can do?

Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow <don83407

wrote:

>

> Most overseas medical degrees do not require a B.S. in pre-med; they simply

get a BM/BS or equivalent in medicine and they say it is " equivalent " to our

M.D. In fact, with a four year BS in medicine they can come here and challenge

the medical boards and practice as an MD. Personally, I do not think that is

fair, but that is life. Therefore, those of us with an MSTOM actually have more

education than the general MD from other countries. However, their education is

more specialized than ours and therefore, it is content, not time, that is

supposedly of importance.

>

> Therefore, we have the hours (perhaps) within our Master's programs to

actually equal the doctorate, but the question is; is our content equal to that

of the doctorate?

>

> Just a thought.

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > CC: habeas_1

> > naturaldoc1

> > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:32:15 +0000

> > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > Richard,

> >

> > Not sure what " current program " you are talking about as we do not yet have

any FPD in operation. Are you asking about the FPD? Not sure that your numbers

are relevant as the OM profession tends to create its own separate educational

reality.

> >

> > BTW, there is no discussion of going this route (BS > MS > PhD), that I

recall. Even though this is the common route in China and possibly in Korea.

> >

> > I see no real issue with adding in a few more classroom hours, more clinical

internship and adjusting the Master's to become a doctorate. I agree that the

master's is way too bloated as such. Would also like to see more rigor in the

courses and a higher educational requirement for entry. That is just me, though.

> >

> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> > CC: habeas_1

> > acudoc11

> > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:03:14 -0500

> > Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > Michael

> >

> > Do tell what the current program is equivalent to in your opinion?

> >

> > By many who count......it is WAY passed even a PhD at least in terms of

> >

> > college credits or clock hours.

> >

> > 60 college credits to get into an acupuncture school and by today's

> >

> > so-called Masters program another 200 credits (3,000 hours divided by the

> >

> > standard 15 hrs per credit). That TOTALS 260 credits.

> >

> > BS = 120 to 128 credits

> >

> > MS = 32

> >

> > PhD = 32

> >

> > Totals approximately 192 credits

> >

> > So we are apparently ALREADY completing 68 college credits BEYOND a PhD.

> >

> > Hmmmmmmmm.....I know you will have something interesting to contradict

> >

> > these FACTS.

> >

> > Oh...and by the way......WHERE is ACAOM's CONSENSUS on the FPD?

> >

> > How are they pushing the FPD through without CONSENSUS?

> >

> > They NEED to PROVE the CONSENSUS.

> >

> > I am sure Mr Dort Bigg (ED of ACAOM) can shed some light..... if he is

> >

> > still within lurking distance.

> >

> > Richard

> >

> > In a message dated 3/12/2010 9:53:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> >

> > naturaldoc1 writes:

> >

> > Not sure where this misinfo is coming from. We are not talking about a

> >

> > PhD but more then likely a clinical doctorate. I am sure that there will be

> >

> > more western medicine in an expanded education, like a doctorate (similar

> >

> > to the DAOM programs I would hope). Your ability to utilize western medical

> >

> > theory is limited by your state laws. For example, the chiropractors

> >

> > rely upon orthopedic and neurological exams, which are also part of western

> >

> > medicine. It is how you use them that matters. So, the big difference is

> >

> > more knowledge and hopefully more rigor in the curriculum. We tend to covet

> >

> > the foreign trained practitioners for their expanded knowledge base in both

> >

> > WM and CM, so now it is up to us to become better.

> >

March 12, 2010

Valerie,

Unless I am missing something, I have not heard of anyone proposing any change

in licensing at this time.

First thing is a change in education to the FPD as a precursor to a later a

change in licensure. The example of the PT's should not be dismissed as the

ACAOM (?) poll taken showed that OM students want a FPD in large numbers. I

will agree that there needs to be more polling of all the students before any

real change can be deemed necessary.

FYI, the chiropractic profession did change its educational requirements with

more hours and also increased its years from 3 to 4. The way this gets changed

in law is that a national exam is needed and graduates need to attend a CCE

recognized program to sit for the exam. In many ways, this is reminiscent of CA

Acupuncture laws requiring graduation from a CAB approved program or similarly

the PT programs. There are many facets to this issue.

BTW, have you considered that more non-OM practitioners are using acupuncture

and I am starting to hear more about pneumothorax accidents? Since these events

are not logged according to training or profession, then it may come back to us

to have mandated more anatomical training. This is just one possible example to

consider and there would be politics involved with this one for sure.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

hobbs.valeriehobbs

Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:33:30 +0000

Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

I think you might be mistaken in this opinion. When other professions

offered higher educational degrees, they did not enact new licensing standards.

The additional degrees exceeded the minimum licensing level in order to

practice, and their practice acts were not changed.

We are a hybrid profession, in that in most states we already are independent

providers of health care. Since we already have these scopes, I can't think of

any public health reason that legislation has to be changed. There is no reason

for us to to " one size fits all " thinking and envision a profession

where everyone has to have a doctorate. I could be wrong here -- do you know of

any other profession that increased licensing requirements when a higher

educational degree was offered? I haven't read all the PT statutes, but I've

read several and their DPT is not required for licensure.

Here's the PT law in California:

" each applicant for a license as a physical therapist shall be a graduate of a

professional degree program of an accredited postsecondary institution or

institutions approved by the board, and shall have completed a professional

education including academic coursework and clinical internship in physical

therapy. "

Here's the PT Accreditation commission's scope:

" CAPTE accredits first professional (entry-level) programs in the U.S. for the

physical therapist at the master's and doctoral degree levels and programs for

the physical therapist assistant at the associate degree level. "

While the PT profession is moving from Master's to a doctoral level, Master

degree programs do still exist, although the profession itself went voluntarily

more to the doctorate level programs faster than they had expected because of

student demand. Their Master's program, unlike ours, were not overly bloated,

and neither is their doctorate, so the conditions under which they made the

change were different. In many cases, you can get a doctorate in PT in less

hours than our Master level programs.

We have several factions within our profession who have and will use a political

strategy in order to get a doctor title, and IMO, the lack of a credible

academic degree at a doctoral level and the pursuit of a political agenda more

than any other factor has pushed our degrees much higher in proscribed hours

than any other professional degree of its kind.

We need to be smart about how to strategically move this forward. Should a

doctorate not be offered, we'll just see individuals push their state

legislatures to make a legislative doctorate happen rather than a credible

academic one.

However, if we have been listening carefully this past several months, we also

need to develop a strategy for sustainability. Part of that sustainability is to

recognize that our currently licensed practitioners are providing good care at

the current licensing levels. Unless we are restricted in scope, such as those

states where herbs can't be prescribed, or we still need an MD Rx, or we still

aren't legal, we should not be promoting a change in licensing. There's no

reason to.

Valerie Hobbs, L Ac

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

> V,

>

> That is part of their process toward a DPT profession. They also need this

for their own autonomy and to be able to provide limited diagnosis. The legal

entry is another issue as that needs to change in the legislature of each state.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> Chinese Medicine

> hobbs.valeriehobbs

> Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:03:27 +0000

> Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> Even in PT, the entry level for licensure never changed. You can get a

license in PT at a bachelor, master or doctorate level. When PTs transitioned

their educational degrees (and remember there are still two degrees in the

field), not a single licensing board increased the standard to enter practice.

> Valerie

> Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1@> wrote:

> > Nursing is not a good example for comparison. I would think that PT would

be a better comparison. We are forgetting that the non-Asian members (US) of

the profession are not a majority worldwide, whereas it appears that the Asian

membership is seeking the FPD. We need to seriously consider that this issue

may lead to fragmentation of our profession and a major step backwards. Also

keep in mind that CA was able to get a lot of political clout to create a better

acupuncture law because of the Asian community.

>

> >

>

> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> > There is no implication that entry level for licensure needs to change

with an advanced title (think nursing). And this step means that standards can

be developed, which takes time. It will take years before any programs can be

developed, before graduates will come of those programs, and before we will see

what the effect is (in terms of patients seeking treatments and students seeking

degrees)

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > We need to listen to each other on this issue and carefully reason whether

it is desirable or sustainable to create a scenario where licensure criteria

changes. There are models of professions that did not change entry level

licensure criteria when they created optional advanced degrees. Why are we

buying into some " either/or " philosophy?

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Valerie Hobbs, L Ac

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Chinese Medicine , " singlewhip2001 "

<singlewhip2001@> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Any thoughts on this and do you all support AAAOM's pursuit of this?

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Will you support their efforts to lobby the State Boards that License,

like California, to follow their goal? Without the Cal Acupuncture Board

agreeing they have no license value in California???

>

> >

>

> > > **********************************************************************

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > At its February meeting, the Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture and

Oriental Medicine (ACAOM) announced that it will proceed with developing

standards for the First-Professional Doctorate (FPD). (link - click on " ACAOM

February 2010 Action on First Professional Doctoral Standards " )

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Once approved by the US Department of Education, there should be

provisions for allowing acupuncturists who hold a Master's in Oriental Medicine

to take classes to upgrade to a transitional doctorate degree (these details

have yet to be determined).

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > You can find details on this exciting development in " Guide to the

Professional Doctorate (FPD) in AOM. "

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > ________

>

> > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection.

>

> > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/

>

> >

>

> >

March 12, 2010

The example of the PT's should not be dismissed as the ACAOM (?) poll taken

showed that OM students want a FPD in large numbers. I will agree that there

needs to be more polling of all the students before any real change can be

deemed necessary.

*******************

Do you have the exact question(s) and the number or respodents and their

breakdown? The only thing I have seen is 3,000 replies, not many as reflective

of our enitre community. The exact question is important. Are students ready to

go a few more years and tens of thousands of dollars of expense?

March 12, 2010

Richard,

It is uncommon to see practitioners with all these degrees in OM in the US,

unless you are counting those that went to school in SE Asia. What we are

starting to see is MS > DAOM becoming more commonplace. Our MS degree is close,

could use some more hours in several subjects but think this would be a better

way to do things for the future. I have no problem with a slow change but want

to allow students to choose which program they want to enroll into. I would

like to see more rigor in the programs as well.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:01:35 -0500

Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

Michael

This BS -> MS -> PhD is also te common route here in the US.

Sure there is no discussion because no one wants to address the pink

elephant....(all the credits & hours which already exist).

As to the OM profession - its all over the place requiring 60 credits from

a regionally accredited institution to GET INTO a school but what one comes

out with is utter nonsense as far as a degree title..... which is not

recognized by the regional accreditation system overall.

Yes....the so-called Masters is WAY to bloated for what it should have

been.

Swap out what is dropped out with what would make it an FPD and guess what?

No increase in overall hours.

If you haven't been paying attention most schools are already upwards

around 3200 hours.

Way more than enough for the FPD.

Richard

In a message dated 3/12/2010 11:32:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

Richard,

Not sure what " current program " you are talking about as we do not yet

have any FPD in operation. Are you asking about the FPD? Not sure that your

numbers are relevant as the OM profession tends to create its own separate

educational reality.

BTW, there is no discussion of going this route (BS > MS > PhD), that I

recall. Even though this is the common route in China and possibly in

Korea.

I see no real issue with adding in a few more classroom hours, more

clinical internship and adjusting the Master's to become a doctorate. I agree

that the master's is way too bloated as such. Would also like to see more

rigor in the courses and a higher educational requirement for entry. That is

just me, though.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

CC: habeas_1

acudoc11

Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:03:14 -0500

Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

Michael

Do tell what the current program is equivalent to in your opinion?

By many who count......it is WAY passed even a PhD at least in terms of

college credits or clock hours.

60 college credits to get into an acupuncture school and by today's

so-called Masters program another 200 credits (3,000 hours divided by the

standard 15 hrs per credit). That TOTALS 260 credits.

BS = 120 to 128 credits

MS = 32

PhD = 32

Totals approximately 192 credits

So we are apparently ALREADY completing 68 college credits BEYOND a PhD.

Hmmmmmmmm.....I know you will have something interesting to contradict

these FACTS.

Oh...and by the way......WHERE is ACAOM's CONSENSUS on the FPD?

How are they pushing the FPD through without CONSENSUS?

They NEED to PROVE the CONSENSUS.

I am sure Mr Dort Bigg (ED of ACAOM) can shed some light..... if he is

still within lurking distance.

Richard

In a message dated 3/12/2010 9:53:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

Not sure where this misinfo is coming from. We are not talking about a

PhD but more then likely a clinical doctorate. I am sure that there

will be

more western medicine in an expanded education, like a doctorate (similar

to the DAOM programs I would hope). Your ability to utilize western

medical

theory is limited by your state laws. For example, the chiropractors

rely upon orthopedic and neurological exams, which are also part of

western

medicine. It is how you use them that matters. So, the big difference

is

more knowledge and hopefully more rigor in the curriculum. We tend to

covet

the foreign trained practitioners for their expanded knowledge base in

both

WM and CM, so now it is up to us to become better.

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March 12, 2010

A BS in China, I am told, is a six year program of study that starts during the

last two years of high school. Not likely to pull that one off here.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

singlewhip2001

Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:23:15 +0000

Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

Hi Don:

This is an excellent point.

The issue is our educational institutions demanding a higher degree of

performance and command of the material in our existing curriculum. If we could

do this and if what you say is true, that our hours are equivalent or exceed the

doctorate level in China/other countries, our focus is to be more demanding,

have a higher standard in our existing programs and lobby to make our MTOM a

Doctor degree.

Anybody interested in starting a grass roots movement for this lets mobilize and

see what we can do?

Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow <don83407

wrote:

>

> Most overseas medical degrees do not require a B.S. in pre-med; they simply

get a BM/BS or equivalent in medicine and they say it is " equivalent " to our

M.D. In fact, with a four year BS in medicine they can come here and challenge

the medical boards and practice as an MD. Personally, I do not think that is

fair, but that is life. Therefore, those of us with an MSTOM actually have more

education than the general MD from other countries. However, their education is

more specialized than ours and therefore, it is content, not time, that is

supposedly of importance.

>

> Therefore, we have the hours (perhaps) within our Master's programs to

actually equal the doctorate, but the question is; is our content equal to that

of the doctorate?

>

> Just a thought.

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > CC: habeas_1

> > naturaldoc1

> > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:32:15 +0000

> > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > Richard,

> >

> > Not sure what " current program " you are talking about as we do not yet have

any FPD in operation. Are you asking about the FPD? Not sure that your numbers

are relevant as the OM profession tends to create its own separate educational

reality.

> >

> > BTW, there is no discussion of going this route (BS > MS > PhD), that I

recall. Even though this is the common route in China and possibly in Korea.

> >

> > I see no real issue with adding in a few more classroom hours, more clinical

internship and adjusting the Master's to become a doctorate. I agree that the

master's is way too bloated as such. Would also like to see more rigor in the

courses and a higher educational requirement for entry. That is just me, though.

> >

> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> > CC: habeas_1

> > acudoc11

> > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:03:14 -0500

> > Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > Michael

> >

> > Do tell what the current program is equivalent to in your opinion?

> >

> > By many who count......it is WAY passed even a PhD at least in terms of

> >

> > college credits or clock hours.

> >

> > 60 college credits to get into an acupuncture school and by today's

> >

> > so-called Masters program another 200 credits (3,000 hours divided by the

> >

> > standard 15 hrs per credit). That TOTALS 260 credits.

> >

> > BS = 120 to 128 credits

> >

> > MS = 32

> >

> > PhD = 32

> >

> > Totals approximately 192 credits

> >

> > So we are apparently ALREADY completing 68 college credits BEYOND a PhD.

> >

> > Hmmmmmmmm.....I know you will have something interesting to contradict

> >

> > these FACTS.

> >

> > Oh...and by the way......WHERE is ACAOM's CONSENSUS on the FPD?

> >

> > How are they pushing the FPD through without CONSENSUS?

> >

> > They NEED to PROVE the CONSENSUS.

> >

> > I am sure Mr Dort Bigg (ED of ACAOM) can shed some light..... if he is

> >

> > still within lurking distance.

> >

> > Richard

> >

> > In a message dated 3/12/2010 9:53:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> >

> > naturaldoc1 writes:

> >

> > Not sure where this misinfo is coming from. We are not talking about a

> >

> > PhD but more then likely a clinical doctorate. I am sure that there will be

> >

> > more western medicine in an expanded education, like a doctorate (similar

> >

> > to the DAOM programs I would hope). Your ability to utilize western medical

> >

> > theory is limited by your state laws. For example, the chiropractors

> >

> > rely upon orthopedic and neurological exams, which are also part of western

> >

> > medicine. It is how you use them that matters. So, the big difference is

> >

> > more knowledge and hopefully more rigor in the curriculum. We tend to covet

> >

> > the foreign trained practitioners for their expanded knowledge base in both

> >

> > WM and CM, so now it is up to us to become better.

> >

March 12, 2010

If 3,000 replies is what ACAOM considers CONSENSUS (out of at least

20,000+++) then something needs to be done about filing a complaint against

ACAOM

with the Dept of Education and their accreditation bureau for pushing this

issue forward.

Mr Dort Bigg (Executive Director of ACAOM)......you are herewith requested

to speak/report in this forum as to what's up with this FPD? We are

stakeholders and want to SEE the real facts and figures.

Richard

In a message dated 3/12/2010 5:12:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

singlewhip2001 writes:

The example of the PT's should not be dismissed as the ACAOM (?) poll

taken showed that OM students want a FPD in large numbers. I will agree that

there needs to be more polling of all the students before any real change can

be deemed necessary.

*******************

Do you have the exact question(s) and the number or respodents and their

breakdown? The only thing I have seen is 3,000 replies, not many as

reflective of our enitre community. The exact question is important. Are

students

ready to go a few more years and tens of thousands of dollars of expense?

March 12, 2010

J

Just the raw truth.

R

In a message dated 3/12/2010 7:34:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

acudoctir writes:

Ha well said

Thank you Richard

Why not just become an MD and then:

1) you are accepted everywhere

2) can pretty much do what you want

R

In a message dated 3/12/2010 4:26:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

johnkokko writes:

4000 hours is only 800 hours more than I did in CA. If that's all it

takes,

why not go for the entry level doctorate?

Why should we be considered technicians when our chiropractor counterparts

are introduced as " doctors " ?

Why are people so opposed to this?

K

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 2:10 PM, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

>

> Actually, I started taking college classes in the 10th grade in Alabama.

It

> was a program for accelerated students. So yes, many do that in this

country

> also.

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, L.Ac.

>

> > To:

Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40

>

> > naturaldoc1 <naturaldoc1%40hotmail.com>

> > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:05:00 +0000

>

> > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > A BS in China, I am told, is a six year program of study that starts

> during the last two years of high school. Not likely to pull that one off

> here.

> >

> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40

>

> > singlewhip2001 <singlewhip2001%40>

> > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:23:15 +0000

> > Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > Hi Don:

> >

> > This is an excellent point.

> >

> > The issue is our educational institutions demanding a higher degree of

> performance and command of the material in our existing curriculum. If we

> could do this and if what you say is true, that our hours are equivalent

or

> exceed the doctorate level in China/other countries, our focus is to be

more

> demanding, have a higher standard in our existing programs and lobby to

make

> our MTOM a Doctor degree.

> >

> > Anybody interested in starting a grass roots movement for this lets

> mobilize and see what we can do?

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40

>,

> Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Most overseas medical degrees do not require a B.S. in pre-med; they

> simply get a BM/BS or equivalent in medicine and they say it is

" equivalent "

> to our M.D. In fact, with a four year BS in medicine they can come here

and

> challenge the medical boards and practice as an MD. Personally, I do not

> think that is fair, but that is life. Therefore, those of us with an

MSTOM

> actually have more education than the general MD from other countries.

> However, their education is more specialized than ours and therefore, it

is

> content, not time, that is supposedly of importance.

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Therefore, we have the hours (perhaps) within our Master's programs

to

> actually equal the doctorate, but the question is; is our content equal

to

> that of the doctorate?

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Just a thought.

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > To:

Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40

>

> >

> > > > CC: habeas_1

> >

> > > > naturaldoc1

> >

> > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:32:15 +0000

> >

> > > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green

Light!

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Richard,

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Not sure what " current program " you are talking about as we do not

> yet have any FPD in operation. Are you asking about the FPD? Not sure

that

> your numbers are relevant as the OM profession tends to create its own

> separate educational reality.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > BTW, there is no discussion of going this route (BS > MS > PhD),

that

> I recall. Even though this is the common route in China and possibly in

> Korea.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > I see no real issue with adding in a few more classroom hours, more

> clinical internship and adjusting the Master's to become a doctorate. I

> agree that the master's is way too bloated as such. Would also like to

see

> more rigor in the courses and a higher educational requirement for

entry.

> That is just me, though.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40

>

> >

> > > > CC: habeas_1

> >

> > > > acudoc11

> >

> > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:03:14 -0500

> >

> > > > Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green

Light!

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Michael

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Do tell what the current program is equivalent to in your opinion?

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > By many who count......it is WAY passed even a PhD at least in

terms

> of

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > college credits or clock hours.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > 60 college credits to get into an acupuncture school and by today's

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > so-called Masters program another 200 credits (3,000 hours

divided by

> the

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > standard 15 hrs per credit). That TOTALS 260 credits.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > BS = 120 to 128 credits

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > MS = 32

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > PhD = 32

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Totals approximately 192 credits

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > So we are apparently ALREADY completing 68 college credits BEYOND a

> PhD.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Hmmmmmmmm.....I know you will have something interesting to

> contradict

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > these FACTS.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Oh...and by the way......WHERE is ACAOM's CONSENSUS on the FPD?

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > How are they pushing the FPD through without CONSENSUS?

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > They NEED to PROVE the CONSENSUS.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > I am sure Mr Dort Bigg (ED of ACAOM) can shed some light..... if he

> is

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > still within lurking distance.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Richard

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > In a message dated 3/12/2010 9:53:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > naturaldoc1 writes:

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Not sure where this misinfo is coming from. We are not talking

about

> a

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > PhD but more then likely a clinical doctorate. I am sure that there

> will be

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > more western medicine in an expanded education, like a doctorate

> (similar

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > to the DAOM programs I would hope). Your ability to utilize western

> medical

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > theory is limited by your state laws. For example, the

chiropractors

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > rely upon orthopedic and neurological exams, which are also part of

> western

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > medicine. It is how you use them that matters. So, the big

difference

> is

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > more knowledge and hopefully more rigor in the curriculum. We tend

to

> covet

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > the foreign trained practitioners for their expanded knowledge base

> in both

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > WM and CM, so now it is up to us to become better.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

March 12, 2010

Actually, I started taking college classes in the 10th grade in Alabama. It was

a program for accelerated students. So yes, many do that in this country also.

Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, L.Ac.

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> naturaldoc1

> Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:05:00 +0000

> RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> A BS in China, I am told, is a six year program of study that starts during

the last two years of high school. Not likely to pull that one off here.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> Chinese Medicine

> singlewhip2001

> Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:23:15 +0000

> Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

Hi Don:

>

> This is an excellent point.

>

> The issue is our educational institutions demanding a higher degree of

performance and command of the material in our existing curriculum. If we could

do this and if what you say is true, that our hours are equivalent or exceed the

doctorate level in China/other countries, our focus is to be more demanding,

have a higher standard in our existing programs and lobby to make our MTOM a

Doctor degree.

>

> Anybody interested in starting a grass roots movement for this lets mobilize

and see what we can do?

>

> Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow

<don83407 wrote:

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Most overseas medical degrees do not require a B.S. in pre-med; they simply

get a BM/BS or equivalent in medicine and they say it is " equivalent " to our

M.D. In fact, with a four year BS in medicine they can come here and challenge

the medical boards and practice as an MD. Personally, I do not think that is

fair, but that is life. Therefore, those of us with an MSTOM actually have more

education than the general MD from other countries. However, their education is

more specialized than ours and therefore, it is content, not time, that is

supposedly of importance.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Therefore, we have the hours (perhaps) within our Master's programs to

actually equal the doctorate, but the question is; is our content equal to that

of the doctorate?

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Just a thought.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

> >

>

> > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

>

> > > CC: habeas_1

>

> > > naturaldoc1

>

> > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:32:15 +0000

>

> > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Richard,

>

> > >

>

> > > Not sure what " current program " you are talking about as we do not yet

have any FPD in operation. Are you asking about the FPD? Not sure that your

numbers are relevant as the OM profession tends to create its own separate

educational reality.

>

> > >

>

> > > BTW, there is no discussion of going this route (BS > MS > PhD), that I

recall. Even though this is the common route in China and possibly in Korea.

>

> > >

>

> > > I see no real issue with adding in a few more classroom hours, more

clinical internship and adjusting the Master's to become a doctorate. I agree

that the master's is way too bloated as such. Would also like to see more rigor

in the courses and a higher educational requirement for entry. That is just me,

though.

>

> > >

>

> > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Chinese Medicine

>

> > > CC: habeas_1

>

> > > acudoc11

>

> > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:03:14 -0500

>

> > > Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Michael

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Do tell what the current program is equivalent to in your opinion?

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > By many who count......it is WAY passed even a PhD at least in terms of

>

> > >

>

> > > college credits or clock hours.

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > 60 college credits to get into an acupuncture school and by today's

>

> > >

>

> > > so-called Masters program another 200 credits (3,000 hours divided by the

>

> > >

>

> > > standard 15 hrs per credit). That TOTALS 260 credits.

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > BS = 120 to 128 credits

>

> > >

>

> > > MS = 32

>

> > >

>

> > > PhD = 32

>

> > >

>

> > > Totals approximately 192 credits

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > So we are apparently ALREADY completing 68 college credits BEYOND a PhD.

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Hmmmmmmmm.....I know you will have something interesting to contradict

>

> > >

>

> > > these FACTS.

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Oh...and by the way......WHERE is ACAOM's CONSENSUS on the FPD?

>

> > >

>

> > > How are they pushing the FPD through without CONSENSUS?

>

> > >

>

> > > They NEED to PROVE the CONSENSUS.

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > I am sure Mr Dort Bigg (ED of ACAOM) can shed some light..... if he is

>

> > >

>

> > > still within lurking distance.

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Richard

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > In a message dated 3/12/2010 9:53:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

>

> > >

>

> > > naturaldoc1 writes:

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Not sure where this misinfo is coming from. We are not talking about a

>

> > >

>

> > > PhD but more then likely a clinical doctorate. I am sure that there will

be

>

> > >

>

> > > more western medicine in an expanded education, like a doctorate (similar

>

> > >

>

> > > to the DAOM programs I would hope). Your ability to utilize western

medical

>

> > >

>

> > > theory is limited by your state laws. For example, the chiropractors

>

> > >

>

> > > rely upon orthopedic and neurological exams, which are also part of

western

>

> > >

>

> > > medicine. It is how you use them that matters. So, the big difference is

>

> > >

>

> > > more knowledge and hopefully more rigor in the curriculum. We tend to

covet

>

> > >

>

> > > the foreign trained practitioners for their expanded knowledge base in

both

>

> > >

>

> > > WM and CM, so now it is up to us to become better.

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

March 12, 2010

Mybe we can find out exactly what their process is and the hours they have for a

doctorate degree, instead of guessing, anybody know on this list?

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

> A BS in China, I am told, is a six year program of study that starts during

the last two years of high school. Not likely to pull that one off here.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

March 12, 2010

4000 hours is only 800 hours more than I did in CA. If that's all it takes,

why not go for the entry level doctorate?

Why should we be considered technicians when our chiropractor counterparts

are introduced as " doctors " ?

Why are people so opposed to this?

K

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 2:10 PM, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

>

> Actually, I started taking college classes in the 10th grade in Alabama. It

> was a program for accelerated students. So yes, many do that in this country

> also.

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, L.Ac.

>

> > To:

Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > naturaldoc1 <naturaldoc1%40hotmail.com>

> > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:05:00 +0000

>

> > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > A BS in China, I am told, is a six year program of study that starts

> during the last two years of high school. Not likely to pull that one off

> here.

> >

> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > singlewhip2001 <singlewhip2001%40>

> > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:23:15 +0000

> > Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > Hi Don:

> >

> > This is an excellent point.

> >

> > The issue is our educational institutions demanding a higher degree of

> performance and command of the material in our existing curriculum. If we

> could do this and if what you say is true, that our hours are equivalent or

> exceed the doctorate level in China/other countries, our focus is to be more

> demanding, have a higher standard in our existing programs and lobby to make

> our MTOM a Doctor degree.

> >

> > Anybody interested in starting a grass roots movement for this lets

> mobilize and see what we can do?

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Most overseas medical degrees do not require a B.S. in pre-med; they

> simply get a BM/BS or equivalent in medicine and they say it is " equivalent "

> to our M.D. In fact, with a four year BS in medicine they can come here and

> challenge the medical boards and practice as an MD. Personally, I do not

> think that is fair, but that is life. Therefore, those of us with an MSTOM

> actually have more education than the general MD from other countries.

> However, their education is more specialized than ours and therefore, it is

> content, not time, that is supposedly of importance.

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Therefore, we have the hours (perhaps) within our Master's programs to

> actually equal the doctorate, but the question is; is our content equal to

> that of the doctorate?

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Just a thought.

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > To:

Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> >

> > > > CC: habeas_1

> >

> > > > naturaldoc1

> >

> > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:32:15 +0000

> >

> > > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Richard,

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Not sure what " current program " you are talking about as we do not

> yet have any FPD in operation. Are you asking about the FPD? Not sure that

> your numbers are relevant as the OM profession tends to create its own

> separate educational reality.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > BTW, there is no discussion of going this route (BS > MS > PhD), that

> I recall. Even though this is the common route in China and possibly in

> Korea.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > I see no real issue with adding in a few more classroom hours, more

> clinical internship and adjusting the Master's to become a doctorate. I

> agree that the master's is way too bloated as such. Would also like to see

> more rigor in the courses and a higher educational requirement for entry.

> That is just me, though.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> >

> > > > CC: habeas_1

> >

> > > > acudoc11

> >

> > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:03:14 -0500

> >

> > > > Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Michael

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Do tell what the current program is equivalent to in your opinion?

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > By many who count......it is WAY passed even a PhD at least in terms

> of

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > college credits or clock hours.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > 60 college credits to get into an acupuncture school and by today's

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > so-called Masters program another 200 credits (3,000 hours divided by

> the

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > standard 15 hrs per credit). That TOTALS 260 credits.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > BS = 120 to 128 credits

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > MS = 32

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > PhD = 32

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Totals approximately 192 credits

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > So we are apparently ALREADY completing 68 college credits BEYOND a

> PhD.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Hmmmmmmmm.....I know you will have something interesting to

> contradict

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > these FACTS.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Oh...and by the way......WHERE is ACAOM's CONSENSUS on the FPD?

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > How are they pushing the FPD through without CONSENSUS?

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > They NEED to PROVE the CONSENSUS.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > I am sure Mr Dort Bigg (ED of ACAOM) can shed some light..... if he

> is

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > still within lurking distance.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Richard

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > In a message dated 3/12/2010 9:53:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > naturaldoc1 writes:

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Not sure where this misinfo is coming from. We are not talking about

> a

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > PhD but more then likely a clinical doctorate. I am sure that there

> will be

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > more western medicine in an expanded education, like a doctorate

> (similar

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > to the DAOM programs I would hope). Your ability to utilize western

> medical

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > theory is limited by your state laws. For example, the chiropractors

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > rely upon orthopedic and neurological exams, which are also part of

> western

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > medicine. It is how you use them that matters. So, the big difference

> is

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > more knowledge and hopefully more rigor in the curriculum. We tend to

> covet

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > the foreign trained practitioners for their expanded knowledge base

> in both

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > WM and CM, so now it is up to us to become better.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

March 12, 2010

David, students would only have to go one more year in a streamlined process

and the expenses would be much less expensive than the way it is now with

the MS and DAOM separate programs.

K

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:57 PM, singlewhip2001

<singlewhip2001wrote:

>

> The example of the PT's should not be dismissed as the ACAOM (?) poll taken

> showed that OM students want a FPD in large numbers. I will agree that there

> needs to be more polling of all the students before any real change can be

> deemed necessary.

> *******************

>

> Do you have the exact question(s) and the number or respodents and their

> breakdown? The only thing I have seen is 3,000 replies, not many as

> reflective of our enitre community. The exact question is important. Are

> students ready to go a few more years and tens of thousands of dollars of

> expense?

>

--

""

www.tcmreview.com

March 12, 2010

BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

alonmarcus

March 13, 2010

In Australia it is 4 years for the BM/BS. In Panama Canal it is 6 years. I

have never seen it over six years and I am a retired Army medical officer and

I've been all over the world. Now if one adds the residency to the program,

that will add a couple of years.

Sincerely,

Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

Chinese Medicine

alonmarcus

Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:18:42 -0800

Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

alonmarcus

March 13, 2010

Ha well said

Thank you Richard

Why not just become an MD and then:

1) you are accepted everywhere

2) can pretty much do what you want

R

In a message dated 3/12/2010 4:26:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

johnkokko writes:

4000 hours is only 800 hours more than I did in CA. If that's all it

takes,

why not go for the entry level doctorate?

Why should we be considered technicians when our chiropractor counterparts

are introduced as " doctors " ?

Why are people so opposed to this?

K

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 2:10 PM, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

>

> Actually, I started taking college classes in the 10th grade in Alabama.

It

> was a program for accelerated students. So yes, many do that in this

country

> also.

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, L.Ac.

>

> > To:

Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > naturaldoc1 <naturaldoc1%40hotmail.com>

> > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:05:00 +0000

>

> > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > A BS in China, I am told, is a six year program of study that starts

> during the last two years of high school. Not likely to pull that one off

> here.

> >

> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > singlewhip2001 <singlewhip2001%40>

> > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:23:15 +0000

> > Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > Hi Don:

> >

> > This is an excellent point.

> >

> > The issue is our educational institutions demanding a higher degree of

> performance and command of the material in our existing curriculum. If we

> could do this and if what you say is true, that our hours are equivalent

or

> exceed the doctorate level in China/other countries, our focus is to be

more

> demanding, have a higher standard in our existing programs and lobby to

make

> our MTOM a Doctor degree.

> >

> > Anybody interested in starting a grass roots movement for this lets

> mobilize and see what we can do?

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Most overseas medical degrees do not require a B.S. in pre-med; they

> simply get a BM/BS or equivalent in medicine and they say it is

" equivalent "

> to our M.D. In fact, with a four year BS in medicine they can come here

and

> challenge the medical boards and practice as an MD. Personally, I do not

> think that is fair, but that is life. Therefore, those of us with an

MSTOM

> actually have more education than the general MD from other countries.

> However, their education is more specialized than ours and therefore, it

is

> content, not time, that is supposedly of importance.

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Therefore, we have the hours (perhaps) within our Master's programs

to

> actually equal the doctorate, but the question is; is our content equal

to

> that of the doctorate?

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Just a thought.

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > To:

Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> >

> > > > CC: habeas_1

> >

> > > > naturaldoc1

> >

> > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:32:15 +0000

> >

> > > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green

Light!

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Richard,

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Not sure what " current program " you are talking about as we do not

> yet have any FPD in operation. Are you asking about the FPD? Not sure

that

> your numbers are relevant as the OM profession tends to create its own

> separate educational reality.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > BTW, there is no discussion of going this route (BS > MS > PhD),

that

> I recall. Even though this is the common route in China and possibly in

> Korea.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > I see no real issue with adding in a few more classroom hours, more

> clinical internship and adjusting the Master's to become a doctorate. I

> agree that the master's is way too bloated as such. Would also like to

see

> more rigor in the courses and a higher educational requirement for

entry.

> That is just me, though.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> >

> > > > CC: habeas_1

> >

> > > > acudoc11

> >

> > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:03:14 -0500

> >

> > > > Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green

Light!

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Michael

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Do tell what the current program is equivalent to in your opinion?

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > By many who count......it is WAY passed even a PhD at least in

terms

> of

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > college credits or clock hours.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > 60 college credits to get into an acupuncture school and by today's

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > so-called Masters program another 200 credits (3,000 hours

divided by

> the

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > standard 15 hrs per credit). That TOTALS 260 credits.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > BS = 120 to 128 credits

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > MS = 32

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > PhD = 32

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Totals approximately 192 credits

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > So we are apparently ALREADY completing 68 college credits BEYOND a

> PhD.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Hmmmmmmmm.....I know you will have something interesting to

> contradict

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > these FACTS.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Oh...and by the way......WHERE is ACAOM's CONSENSUS on the FPD?

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > How are they pushing the FPD through without CONSENSUS?

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > They NEED to PROVE the CONSENSUS.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > I am sure Mr Dort Bigg (ED of ACAOM) can shed some light..... if he

> is

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > still within lurking distance.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Richard

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > In a message dated 3/12/2010 9:53:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > naturaldoc1 writes:

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Not sure where this misinfo is coming from. We are not talking

about

> a

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > PhD but more then likely a clinical doctorate. I am sure that there

> will be

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > more western medicine in an expanded education, like a doctorate

> (similar

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > to the DAOM programs I would hope). Your ability to utilize western

> medical

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > theory is limited by your state laws. For example, the

chiropractors

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > rely upon orthopedic and neurological exams, which are also part of

> western

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > medicine. It is how you use them that matters. So, the big

difference

> is

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > more knowledge and hopefully more rigor in the curriculum. We tend

to

> covet

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > the foreign trained practitioners for their expanded knowledge base

> in both

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > WM and CM, so now it is up to us to become better.

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

March 13, 2010

We are a hybrid profession, in that in most states we already are independent

providers of health care. Since we already have these scopes, I can't think of

any public health reason that legislation has to be changed. There is no reason

for us to to " one size fits all " thinking and envision a profession

where everyone has to have a doctorate. I could be wrong here -- do you know of

any other profession that increased licensing requirements when a higher

educational degree was offered? I haven't read all the PT statutes, but I've

read several and their DPT is not required for licensure.

I think we all have to slow down here. The 1st professional doctorate will take

years to develop, years to implement and years to become the norm, and it will

be the norm only if the vast majority choose to go to it. Then, we start to

think about licensing issues.This sort of thing is at least 10 years away. Lets

develop a credible 1st professional doctorate first. It is long overdue.It is

long overdue

March 13, 2010

I think we are presuming at least 2 years of prereqs. Plus, we are looking at

DC's and ND's, and not MDs, with their residencies and such..

Dave Molony

BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

alon marcus <alonmarcus

Chinese Medicine

Fri, Mar 12, 2010 6:18 pm

Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

alonmarcus

March 13, 2010

Don't MDs do 4 years of college on average before med school,

a year of preparing for the MCAT and waiting for results

4 years of med school

3 years residency

= at least 11 years of school after high school

For most acupuncture schools:

2-4 years of college

3-4 years of acupuncture school

= 5 - 8 years after high school

The difference is not having a residency.

I think this is what the FPD should be...

get your license first while still in school after 3000 hours of studies

and then do extensive clinical rounds at hospitals and specialty clinics for

the added year in school.

Do one extra year (1000 hours) of clinical rounds with experts and then come

out with a DAOM.

What's wrong with that? Seems like that's what's missing in the American

acupuncture education.

K

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 8:17 PM, <acuman1 wrote:

>

> I think we are presuming at least 2 years of prereqs. Plus, we are looking

> at DC's and ND's, and not MDs, with their residencies and such..

> Dave Molony

>

> BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

>

> alon marcus <alonmarcus <alonmarcus%40wans.net>>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Fri, Mar 12, 2010 6:18 pm

> Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

>

> 400 29th St. Suite 419

> Oakland Ca 94609

>

> alonmarcus <alonmarcus%40wans.net>

>

March 13, 2010

Kokko said:

The difference is not having a residency. I think this is what the FPD

should be...

Joe sez:

1000 hours of patients = 2000 patients - still not enough

March 13, 2010

Dave

This is where we have a huge disagreement.

Lest we not forget that ACAOM is a creature of AAAOM/CCAOM formed by these

orgs.

Furthermore....and more importantly we ALREADY HAVE the FPD.

Its just called a Masters instead of FPD (with some minor changes needed).

Richard

In a message dated 3/12/2010 11:08:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

acuman1 writes:

Lets develop a credible 1st professional doctorate first. It is long

overdue.It is long overdue

March 13, 2010

John, unfortunately, it would probably be difficult to find a

hospital/specialty clinic that would do this. And give us a salary...

km

--- On Fri, 3/12/10, <johnkokko wrote:

<johnkokko

Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

Chinese Medicine

Friday, March 12, 2010, 9:59 PM

Don't MDs do 4 years of college on average before med school,

a year of preparing for the MCAT and waiting for results

4 years of med school

3 years residency

= at least 11 years of school after high school

For most acupuncture schools:

2-4 years of college

3-4 years of acupuncture school

= 5 - 8 years after high school

The difference is not having a residency.

I think this is what the FPD should be...

get your license first while still in school after 3000 hours of studies

and then do extensive clinical rounds at hospitals and specialty clinics for

the added year in school.

Do one extra year (1000 hours) of clinical rounds with experts and then come

out with a DAOM.

What's wrong with that? Seems like that's what's missing in the American

acupuncture education.

K

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 8:17 PM, <acuman1 wrote:

>

> I think we are presuming at least 2 years of prereqs. Plus, we are looking

> at DC's and ND's, and not MDs, with their residencies and such..

> Dave Molony

>

> BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

>

> alon marcus <alonmarcus <alonmarcus%40wans.net>>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Fri, Mar 12, 2010 6:18 pm

> Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

>

> 400 29th St. Suite 419

> Oakland Ca 94609

>

> alonmarcus <alonmarcus%40wans.net>

>

March 13, 2010

I think the poll was conducted by ACAOM, although not sure. It was a rather

large disparity of students and also the schools, of course they would like it.

They are also on the front lines per se and do see things first when changes are

made to the curriculum. You can search for the ACAOM study and see if the

question is valid. The amount of time would not be much more then a year and

most likely the cost vs the DAOM would make it a much better benefit.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAcChinese Medicine

singlewhip2001

Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:57:15 +0000

Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

The example of the PT's should not be dismissed as the ACAOM (?) poll taken

showed that OM students want a FPD in large numbers. I will agree that there

needs to be more polling of all the students before any real change can be

deemed necessary.

*******************

Do you have the exact question(s) and the number or respodents and their

breakdown? The only thing I have seen is 3,000 replies, not many as reflective

of our enitre community. The exact question is important. Are students ready to

go a few more years and tens of thousands of dollars of expense?

_______________

The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.

http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID27925::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en\

-US:WM_HMP:032010_3

March 13, 2010

Maybe our profession attracts a lot of anti-establishment types much like it did

back in the 1970's. We are a split profession in many ways. You will not see a

lessening of educational standards in CA to match the rest of the country. You

bring up a great point about who we are. I think that is what the ACAOM study

was demonstrating, that times they are a changing.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> Chinese Medicine

> johnkokko

> Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:26:53 -0600

> Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> 4000 hours is only 800 hours more than I did in CA. If that's all it takes,

> why not go for the entry level doctorate?

> Why should we be considered technicians when our chiropractor counterparts

> are introduced as " doctors " ?

>

> Why are people so opposed to this?

>

> K

>

> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 2:10 PM, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

>

> >

> > Actually, I started taking college classes in the 10th grade in Alabama. It

> > was a program for accelerated students. So yes, many do that in this country

> > also.

> >

> > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, L.Ac.

> >

> > > To:

Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > > naturaldoc1 <naturaldoc1%40hotmail.com>

> > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:05:00 +0000

> >

> > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> > >

> > > A BS in China, I am told, is a six year program of study that starts

> > during the last two years of high school. Not likely to pull that one off

> > here.

> > >

> > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> > >

> > > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > > singlewhip2001 <singlewhip2001%40>

> > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:23:15 +0000

> > > Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> > >

> > > Hi Don:

> > >

> > > This is an excellent point.

> > >

> > > The issue is our educational institutions demanding a higher degree of

> > performance and command of the material in our existing curriculum. If we

> > could do this and if what you say is true, that our hours are equivalent or

> > exceed the doctorate level in China/other countries, our focus is to be more

> > demanding, have a higher standard in our existing programs and lobby to make

> > our MTOM a Doctor degree.

> > >

> > > Anybody interested in starting a grass roots movement for this lets

> > mobilize and see what we can do?

> > >

> > > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> > Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > > Most overseas medical degrees do not require a B.S. in pre-med; they

> > simply get a BM/BS or equivalent in medicine and they say it is " equivalent "

> > to our M.D. In fact, with a four year BS in medicine they can come here and

> > challenge the medical boards and practice as an MD. Personally, I do not

> > think that is fair, but that is life. Therefore, those of us with an MSTOM

> > actually have more education than the general MD from other countries.

> > However, their education is more specialized than ours and therefore, it is

> > content, not time, that is supposedly of importance.

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > > Therefore, we have the hours (perhaps) within our Master's programs to

> > actually equal the doctorate, but the question is; is our content equal to

> > that of the doctorate?

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > > Just a thought.

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > > > To:

Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > >

> > > > > CC: habeas_1

> > >

> > > > > naturaldoc1

> > >

> > > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:32:15 +0000

> > >

> > > > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > Richard,

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > Not sure what " current program " you are talking about as we do not

> > yet have any FPD in operation. Are you asking about the FPD? Not sure that

> > your numbers are relevant as the OM profession tends to create its own

> > separate educational reality.

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > BTW, there is no discussion of going this route (BS > MS > PhD), that

> > I recall. Even though this is the common route in China and possibly in

> > Korea.

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > I see no real issue with adding in a few more classroom hours, more

> > clinical internship and adjusting the Master's to become a doctorate. I

> > agree that the master's is way too bloated as such. Would also like to see

> > more rigor in the courses and a higher educational requirement for entry.

> > That is just me, though.

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > >

> > > > > CC: habeas_1

> > >

> > > > > acudoc11

> > >

> > > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:03:14 -0500

> > >

> > > > > Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > Michael

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > Do tell what the current program is equivalent to in your opinion?

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > By many who count......it is WAY passed even a PhD at least in terms

> > of

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > college credits or clock hours.

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > 60 college credits to get into an acupuncture school and by today's

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > so-called Masters program another 200 credits (3,000 hours divided by

> > the

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > standard 15 hrs per credit). That TOTALS 260 credits.

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > BS = 120 to 128 credits

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > MS = 32

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > PhD = 32

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > Totals approximately 192 credits

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > So we are apparently ALREADY completing 68 college credits BEYOND a

> > PhD.

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > Hmmmmmmmm.....I know you will have something interesting to

> > contradict

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > these FACTS.

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > Oh...and by the way......WHERE is ACAOM's CONSENSUS on the FPD?

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > How are they pushing the FPD through without CONSENSUS?

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > They NEED to PROVE the CONSENSUS.

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > I am sure Mr Dort Bigg (ED of ACAOM) can shed some light..... if he

> > is

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > still within lurking distance.

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > Richard

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > In a message dated 3/12/2010 9:53:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > naturaldoc1 writes:

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > Not sure where this misinfo is coming from. We are not talking about

> > a

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > PhD but more then likely a clinical doctorate. I am sure that there

> > will be

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > more western medicine in an expanded education, like a doctorate

> > (similar

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > to the DAOM programs I would hope). Your ability to utilize western

> > medical

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > theory is limited by your state laws. For example, the chiropractors

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > rely upon orthopedic and neurological exams, which are also part of

> > western

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > medicine. It is how you use them that matters. So, the big difference

> > is

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > more knowledge and hopefully more rigor in the curriculum. We tend to

> > covet

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > the foreign trained practitioners for their expanded knowledge base

> > in both

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > WM and CM, so now it is up to us to become better.

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

March 13, 2010

Don,

You are the exception whereas in China it is the norm. The focus of your study

was not in OM was it? Our profession would cease to exist if we relied upon

high school to start teaching our OM curriculum.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Traditional Medicine

don83407

Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:10:50 -0600

RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

Actually, I started taking college classes in the 10th grade in Alabama. It was

a program for accelerated students. So yes, many do that in this country also.

Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, L.Ac.

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> naturaldoc1

> Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:05:00 +0000

> RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> A BS in China, I am told, is a six year program of study that starts during

the last two years of high school. Not likely to pull that one off here.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> Chinese Medicine

> singlewhip2001

> Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:23:15 +0000

> Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> Hi Don:

>

> This is an excellent point.

>

> The issue is our educational institutions demanding a higher degree of

performance and command of the material in our existing curriculum. If we could

do this and if what you say is true, that our hours are equivalent or exceed the

doctorate level in China/other countries, our focus is to be more demanding,

have a higher standard in our existing programs and lobby to make our MTOM a

Doctor degree.

>

> Anybody interested in starting a grass roots movement for this lets mobilize

and see what we can do?

>

> Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow

<don83407 wrote:

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Most overseas medical degrees do not require a B.S. in pre-med; they simply

get a BM/BS or equivalent in medicine and they say it is " equivalent " to our

M.D. In fact, with a four year BS in medicine they can come here and challenge

the medical boards and practice as an MD. Personally, I do not think that is

fair, but that is life. Therefore, those of us with an MSTOM actually have more

education than the general MD from other countries. However, their education is

more specialized than ours and therefore, it is content, not time, that is

supposedly of importance.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Therefore, we have the hours (perhaps) within our Master's programs to

actually equal the doctorate, but the question is; is our content equal to that

of the doctorate?

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Just a thought.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

> >

>

> > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

>

> > > CC: habeas_1

>

> > > naturaldoc1

>

> > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:32:15 +0000

>

> > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Richard,

>

> > >

>

> > > Not sure what " current program " you are talking about as we do not yet

have any FPD in operation. Are you asking about the FPD? Not sure that your

numbers are relevant as the OM profession tends to create its own separate

educational reality.

>

> > >

>

> > > BTW, there is no discussion of going this route (BS > MS > PhD), that I

recall. Even though this is the common route in China and possibly in Korea.

>

> > >

>

> > > I see no real issue with adding in a few more classroom hours, more

clinical internship and adjusting the Master's to become a doctorate. I agree

that the master's is way too bloated as such. Would also like to see more rigor

in the courses and a higher educational requirement for entry. That is just me,

though.

>

> > >

>

> > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Chinese Medicine

>

> > > CC: habeas_1

>

> > > acudoc11

>

> > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:03:14 -0500

>

> > > Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Michael

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Do tell what the current program is equivalent to in your opinion?

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > By many who count......it is WAY passed even a PhD at least in terms of

>

> > >

>

> > > college credits or clock hours.

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > 60 college credits to get into an acupuncture school and by today's

>

> > >

>

> > > so-called Masters program another 200 credits (3,000 hours divided by the

>

> > >

>

> > > standard 15 hrs per credit). That TOTALS 260 credits.

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > BS = 120 to 128 credits

>

> > >

>

> > > MS = 32

>

> > >

>

> > > PhD = 32

>

> > >

>

> > > Totals approximately 192 credits

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > So we are apparently ALREADY completing 68 college credits BEYOND a PhD.

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Hmmmmmmmm.....I know you will have something interesting to contradict

>

> > >

>

> > > these FACTS.

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Oh...and by the way......WHERE is ACAOM's CONSENSUS on the FPD?

>

> > >

>

> > > How are they pushing the FPD through without CONSENSUS?

>

> > >

>

> > > They NEED to PROVE the CONSENSUS.

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > I am sure Mr Dort Bigg (ED of ACAOM) can shed some light..... if he is

>

> > >

>

> > > still within lurking distance.

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Richard

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > In a message dated 3/12/2010 9:53:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

>

> > >

>

> > > naturaldoc1 writes:

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Not sure where this misinfo is coming from. We are not talking about a

>

> > >

>

> > > PhD but more then likely a clinical doctorate. I am sure that there will

be

>

> > >

>

> > > more western medicine in an expanded education, like a doctorate (similar

>

> > >

>

> > > to the DAOM programs I would hope). Your ability to utilize western

medical

>

> > >

>

> > > theory is limited by your state laws. For example, the chiropractors

>

> > >

>

> > > rely upon orthopedic and neurological exams, which are also part of

western

>

> > >

>

> > > medicine. It is how you use them that matters. So, the big difference is

>

> > >

>

> > > more knowledge and hopefully more rigor in the curriculum. We tend to

covet

>

> > >

>

> > > the foreign trained practitioners for their expanded knowledge base in

both

>

> > >

>

> > > WM and CM, so now it is up to us to become better.

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

March 13, 2010

" Do you have the...number or respodents and their breakdown? The only thing I

have seen is 3,000 replies, not many as reflective of our enitre community. "

I hand-delivered 2039 signatures of OPPOSITION to the proposed FPD (of course,

that excludes any letters from individuals who sent their letters directly to

ACAOM, without copying me). I assume this means that ACAOM received less than

961 letters in support of the FPD.

Curious, isn't it?

_______________

Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection.

http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/210850552/direct/01/

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