Community Acupuncture

March 3, 2010

Hi There-

I just caught up on the recent flurry of opinions and concerns about Community

Acupuncture and, being an owner/practitioner at a CA style clinic, I wanted to

throw my two cents into the discussion.

First some details about how we run our practice: Our clinic is open 6

days/week, we have 5 acupuncturists who work there (two of us are the owners).

We see 4 existing patients each hour, or two new patients each hour. All of our

intakes are done in a private room with a table in case we need to perform an

exam. Shifts are approximately 4.5 hours long and contain approx 15 patients.

That seems to be the most number of patients we can see in a day without feeling

burnt out. We charge $20-$40 for existing pts, $40-$60 for new patients. We

also offer private treatments out of the same office at $80 each.

All patients fill out health history forms, informed consent forms and we keep

SOAP notes on them all in individual files in a locked cabinet, just like any

other acupuncturist.

We are clear with our CA patients about what we can realistically treat given

the CA model and its limitations. If we feel the patient would best be served

with private acupuncture treatments (we cant do moxa, cupping, gua sha, e-stim

in the community room) , need a more in-depth intake or herbal consult, or a

DC, PT, ND, MD, what have you, we refer them out.

We have many patients who come in monthly for private treatments and then weekly

for Community treatments.

So why am I telling you all this? I guess to say: that it is working for us.

My partner and I love being able to treat first timers (about 40% of our new

patients have never had acupuncture), or people who cant afford the more

expensive treatments and watch them get better. Because of our rates, many

people can afford to come weekly or bi-weekly and that frequency of treatment

can make a big difference in their healing,

To Lee I would say: just as you may have had patients tell you they haven't

gotten better by going to a CA clinic (or a MD or DC) , we hear similar stories!

I think every acupuncturist does. In our case, often the pt has been getting

private treatments but only going once a month because they can't afford to go

more often. And in our private treatments, we see patients who didn't get

better with one practitioner, but do well with another. Just as we woudn't infer

that this meant all private treatments are ineffective, I don't think it is fair

to assume that CA treatments don't work, either.

As far as CA being a disservice to the practitioner because it is more work for

the same amount of money- well, that is up to the practitioner. If I gross an

average of $95 seeing 4 pts in an hour, am I doing myself more or less of a

disservice than the practitioner who charges $60 per visit and sees one person

per hour? Because practitioners with those rates exist, too. I am okay with

that.

I know of practitioners who don't call themselves community acupuncture

practitioners, yet they see similar numbers of people, often in rooms with

curtains separating the tables from each other. I dont think this is much

different from what we do, except for the name or 'classification' of type of

clinic. Do people who object to the CA model also object to practitioners who

see 4 or more pts/hour? Because 'private' practitioners have been doing that

for a long, long time. Perhaps the distinction in a case like this is in name

only? I really think the CA model is not a new style of practicing. It may have

a new name, but it is still acupuncture to me.

Sorry for the long post. Looking forward to your comments!

-Rebekah

------------

Rebekah Sitty, MS, L.Ac.

San Francisco Community Acupuncture

220 Valencia St.

San Francisco, CA 94103

415.675.8973 rsitty

-------------

The information contained in this electronic message may contain protected

health information confidential under applicable law, and is intended only for

the use of the individual or entity named above. If the recipient of this copy

is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,

copy or disclosure of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have

received this communication in error, please notify the sender and purge the

communication immediately without making any copy or distribution.

March 3, 2010

15 years ago, I went to a well known acupuncturist in Denver who treated me

and my mom in about 5 minutes each. He had a doctorate degree from China

and was licensed in the US. He took the pulse in about 1 minute, asked 2

questions and put needles in as fast as I've ever seen. That was it, didn't

see him after those 5 minutes. His assistant took out the needles. His

wife took the money and gave the herbs in home-made pills. That was it.

Less time than a community acupuncture clinic, but cost $80 for the needles

and another $40 for the pills for the week. Still, he had this huge

reputation and no one would even think that he was dangerous to the

profession.

Maybe it's more about the individual practitioner's skills and

attentiveness, even if it's focused for 5 minutes?

K

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 7:51 PM, Rebekah Sitty L.Ac. <rsittywrote:

>

> Hi There-

> I just caught up on the recent flurry of opinions and concerns about

> Community Acupuncture and, being an owner/practitioner at a CA style clinic,

> I wanted to throw my two cents into the discussion.

>

> First some details about how we run our practice: Our clinic is open 6

> days/week, we have 5 acupuncturists who work there (two of us are the

> owners). We see 4 existing patients each hour, or two new patients each

> hour. All of our intakes are done in a private room with a table in case we

> need to perform an exam. Shifts are approximately 4.5 hours long and contain

> approx 15 patients. That seems to be the most number of patients we can see

> in a day without feeling burnt out. We charge $20-$40 for existing pts,

> $40-$60 for new patients. We also offer private treatments out of the same

> office at $80 each.

>

> All patients fill out health history forms, informed consent forms and we

> keep SOAP notes on them all in individual files in a locked cabinet, just

> like any other acupuncturist.

>

> We are clear with our CA patients about what we can realistically treat

> given the CA model and its limitations. If we feel the patient would best be

> served with private acupuncture treatments (we cant do moxa, cupping, gua

> sha, e-stim in the community room) , need a more in-depth intake or herbal

> consult, or a DC, PT, ND, MD, what have you, we refer them out.

>

> We have many patients who come in monthly for private treatments and then

> weekly for Community treatments.

>

> So why am I telling you all this? I guess to say: that it is working for

> us. My partner and I love being able to treat first timers (about 40% of our

> new patients have never had acupuncture), or people who cant afford the more

> expensive treatments and watch them get better. Because of our rates, many

> people can afford to come weekly or bi-weekly and that frequency of

> treatment can make a big difference in their healing,

>

> To Lee I would say: just as you may have had patients tell you they haven't

> gotten better by going to a CA clinic (or a MD or DC) , we hear similar

> stories! I think every acupuncturist does. In our case, often the pt has

> been getting private treatments but only going once a month because they

> can't afford to go more often. And in our private treatments, we see

> patients who didn't get better with one practitioner, but do well with

> another. Just as we woudn't infer that this meant all private treatments are

> ineffective, I don't think it is fair to assume that CA treatments don't

> work, either.

>

> As far as CA being a disservice to the practitioner because it is more work

> for the same amount of money- well, that is up to the practitioner. If I

> gross an average of $95 seeing 4 pts in an hour, am I doing myself more or

> less of a disservice than the practitioner who charges $60 per visit and

> sees one person per hour? Because practitioners with those rates exist, too.

> I am okay with that.

>

> I know of practitioners who don't call themselves community acupuncture

> practitioners, yet they see similar numbers of people, often in rooms with

> curtains separating the tables from each other. I dont think this is much

> different from what we do, except for the name or 'classification' of type

> of clinic. Do people who object to the CA model also object to practitioners

> who see 4 or more pts/hour? Because 'private' practitioners have been doing

> that for a long, long time. Perhaps the distinction in a case like this is

> in name only? I really think the CA model is not a new style of practicing.

> It may have a new name, but it is still acupuncture to me.

>

> Sorry for the long post. Looking forward to your comments!

> -Rebekah

>

> ------------

> Rebekah Sitty, MS, L.Ac.

> San Francisco Community Acupuncture

> 220 Valencia St.

> San Francisco, CA 94103

> 415.675.8973 rsitty <rsitty%40earthlink.net>

> -------------

>

> The information contained in this electronic message may contain protected

> health information confidential under applicable law, and is intended only

> for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the recipient of

> this copy is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any

> dissemination, copy or disclosure of this communication is strictly

> prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify

> the sender and purge the communication immediately without making any copy

> or distribution.

>

--

""

www.tcmreview.com

March 3, 2010

I agree with Rebekah, private practitioners have been doing this for a long time

(so do I, I also see three patients per hour, in two to three shifts of three to

four hours). Besides, it is also the way (senior) acupuncturists practice in

China.

I can see how other private practitioners feel threatened by CA clinics that set

their fees below the average. It is kind of undermining their market value. In

Belgium the professional organization that I belong to (www.eufom.com) has set a

minimum price for a consultation fee, to avoid people undercharging and perhaps

undermining the profession. Maybe the American acupuncture professional

organizations need to think about what they want to do with this? We have had

the same discussions here with physiotherapists, some MDS,...

For sure we have all treated some patients for free or for a discounted price,

and I think we should continue to do so if there is a need for that.

I think America's problem has to do with the fact that they have charged too

much (like 60-80$, right?) from the beginning - 30â‚¬ is the going rate in

Belgium. In countries like the Netherlands, where insurance paybacks are better,

people charge closer to 45-50â‚¬. A side-effect of insurance reimbursement, I

guess...since income levels are similar in between those two countries.

This is something that American list members should also bring to the attention

of their chosen representatives.

Tom Verhaeghe

Stationsplein 59

8770 Ingelmunster

www.chinese-geneeskunde.be

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

woensdag 3 maart 2010 9:12

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Community Acupuncture