Community Acupuncture

[Guest guest]

Hi Everyone,

 

I was wondering what were the points that are used during community acupuncture?

Are the auricular points used? I will take all comments and expertise

available.

 

Thank You

 

Tangela Bass, M.Ac, L.Ac

[Guest guest]

Threading GV 20 to Kidney 1 can be very powerful in a pinch.

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Tangela " <pershawn

wrote:

>

> Hi Everyone,

>

> I was wondering what were the points that are used during community

acupuncture? Are the auricular points used? I will take all comments and

expertise available.

>

> Thank You

>

> Tangela Bass, M.Ac, L.Ac

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Tangela,

 

 

 

People in community acupuncture clinics use a wide variety of points: jingei,

auricular, master tong, extraordinary vessels, miriam lee, heavenly star, scalp,

and many more.

 

 

 

If you are interested in learning more about community acupuncture, I would

suggest purchasing a copy of " Acupuncture is Like Noodles " ($25) and joining CAN

as a member. There are over 4,000 threads and 23,000 comments discussing all

the different aspects of Community Acupuncture. But you have to be a member

(sliding scale: $15 - $35 for students or $45 - $90 for acupuncturists) to see

the private forums. The front page blogs are only the tip of the iceberg...

 

 

 

Worried about the membership cost? With the member-only-benefits (like

discounts to acu-vendors, enhanced listings on Acu-Finder, and *much more* to

come!), your membership totally pays for itself...

 

 

 

Also, I notice that you are a Tai Sophia grad in live in Virginia. There will

be a one-day workshop in Frederick, Maryland in February about running a

community acupuncture clinic. It is presented by Lisa Rohleder & Skip VanMeter

and will cover all the nuts and bolts about setting-up a community acupuncture

clinic (like treatment strategies). You can email me for details, or visit this

page to register online:

http://www.workingclassacupuncture.org/catalog/5/workshops_and_trainings Again,

the cost is sliding scale (students: $75 - $125 or acupuncturists: $150 - $200)

and CEU's are available. Hope to meet you there!

 

 

 

Kind Regards,

 

Jessica Feltz Wolfson, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Turning Point, LLC

A Community Acupuncture Center

Jessica Feltz Wolfson, L.Ac.

243 W. Patrick Street

Frederick, MD 21701

Telephone: (240) 405-7878

Website: www.TheTurningPointAcupuncture.com

Blog: www.CommunityAcupunctureNetwork.org

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

pershawn

Fri, 22 Jan 2010 03:31:47 +0000

Community Acupuncture

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Everyone,

 

I was wondering what were the points that are used during community acupuncture?

Are the auricular points used? I will take all comments and expertise available.

 

Thank You

 

Tangela Bass, M.Ac, L.Ac

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.

http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/

 

 

[Guest guest]

any points can be used, depending on the LAc's training, style and what's right

for the situation.

 

check here to learn more:

 

www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org

 

keith

 

Chinese Medicine , " Tangela " <pershawn

wrote:

>

> Hi Everyone,

>

> I was wondering what were the points that are used during community

acupuncture? Are the auricular points used? I will take all comments and

expertise available.

>

> Thank You

>

> Tangela Bass, M.Ac, L.Ac

>

[Guest guest]

In my experience, the points used in community acupuncture are no different than

those used in other acupuncture settings. We do a private intake for each

patient and treat based on signs/symptoms. We also use NADA and many other

auricular points and some tan protocols for pain.

 

Hope this helps-

Rebekah

------------

Rebekah Sitty, MS, L.Ac.

San Francisco Community Acupuncture

220 Valencia St.

San Francisco, CA 94103

415.675.8973 rsitty

-------------

 

The information contained in this electronic message may contain protected

health information confidential under applicable law, and is intended only for

the use of the individual or entity named above. If the recipient of this copy

is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,

copy or disclosure of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have

received this communication in error, please notify the sender and purge the

communication immediately without making any copy or distribution.

[Guest guest]

Thanks I needed that! :-)

 

Chinese Medicine , " daniel.schulman "

<daniel.schulman wrote:

>

> Threading GV 20 to Kidney 1 can be very powerful in a pinch.

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Tangela " <pershawn@>

wrote:

> >

> > Hi Everyone,

> >

> > I was wondering what were the points that are used during community

acupuncture? Are the auricular points used? I will take all comments and

expertise available.

> >

> > Thank You

> >

> > Tangela Bass, M.Ac, L.Ac

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you to all comments.  I could have worded my question a little better but

thanks for all input anyway.

 

Tangela

 

 

Tangela Bass, M.Ac, L.Ac, Dipl. Ac.

 

 

" For the mind to flower it has to go

beyond what it knows " -Mother Meera

 

 

 

 

 

--- On Fri, 1/22/10, Rebekah Sitty L.Ac. <rsitty wrote:

 

 

Rebekah Sitty L.Ac. <rsitty

Re:Community Acupuncture

Chinese Medicine

Friday, January 22, 2010, 11:58 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

In my experience, the points used in community acupuncture are no different than

those used in other acupuncture settings. We do a private intake for each

patient and treat based on signs/symptoms. We also use NADA and many other

auricular points and some tan protocols for pain.

 

Hope this helps-

Rebekah

------------ --------- --------- --------- ------

Rebekah Sitty, MS, L.Ac.

San Francisco Community Acupuncture

220 Valencia St.

San Francisco, CA 94103

415.675.8973 rsitty (AT) earthlink (DOT) net

------------ --------- --------- --------- -------

 

The information contained in this electronic message may contain protected

health information confidential under applicable law, and is intended only for

the use of the individual or entity named above. If the recipient of this copy

is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,

copy or disclosure of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have

received this communication in error, please notify the sender and purge the

communication immediately without making any copy or distribution.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Tangela,

can I ask you what your intention is in doing community-style acupuncture?

 

K

 

On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 4:02 AM, daniel.schulman

<daniel.schulmanwrote:

 

>

>

> Threading GV 20 to Kidney 1 can be very powerful in a pinch.

>

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " Tangela " <pershawn wrote:

> >

> > Hi Everyone,

> >

> > I was wondering what were the points that are used during community

> acupuncture? Are the auricular points used? I will take all comments and

> expertise available.

> >

> > Thank You

> >

> > Tangela Bass, M.Ac, L.Ac

> >

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

""

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Wow, I don't know if I would want to do that in a Community setting.

 

 

 

Tangela, I am not running a community acupuncture group; however, I had to do

intensive work in drug rehab clinics to complete my acupuncture clinical hours.

The clinics were in inner city Baltimore - The book, The Corner " was written

about the area we went into.  The book was written a few years before we went

into that area.  We were already in another part of Baltimore - Penn North. 

We used the NADA protocol.  I use it a lot in my practice now.  I think it

would be a good way to start a community practice.  If I were doing this now I

would start with NADA and add treatment on distal points (e.g. Balance Method to

relieve pain).

 

 

 

Anne

 

 

 

Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

 

-

" daniel.schulman " <daniel.schulman

" Traditional "

<Chinese Medicine >

Friday, January 22, 2010 7:02:42 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

 Re: Community Acupuncture

 

 

 

 

 

 

Threading GV 20 to Kidney 1 can be very powerful in a pinch.

 

Chinese Medicine , " Tangela " <pershawn

wrote:

>

> Hi Everyone,

>

> I was wondering what were the points that are used during community

acupuncture? Are the auricular points used? I will take all comments and

expertise available.

>

> Thank You

>

> Tangela Bass, M.Ac, L.Ac

>

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Anne,

 

Thank you for your sharing.  I also went to penn north and ric in baltimore and

got some real good training in the nada protocol.  I just was hearing a lot

about community acupuncture and after getting all of this great feedback.  I

realize that I can just use the teachings that I learned from Tai to treat my

patients and apply that to all that I want to do.

 

Thanks for your positive and thoughtful feedback

 

 

Tangela Bass, M.Ac, L.Ac, Dipl. Ac.

Acupuncture Detox Specialist

 

" For the mind to flower it has to go

beyond what it knows " -Mother Meera

 

 

 

 

 

--- On Mon, 1/25/10, Anne Crowley <anne.crowley wrote:

 

 

Anne Crowley <anne.crowley

Re: Re: Community Acupuncture

" Traditional "

<Chinese Medicine >

Monday, January 25, 2010, 9:28 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, I don't know if I would want to do that in a Community setting.

 

Tangela, I am not running a community acupuncture group; however, I had to do

intensive work in drug rehab clinics to complete my acupuncture clinical hours.

The clinics were in inner city Baltimore - The book, The Corner " was written

about the area we went into.  The book was written a few years before we went

into that area.  We were already in another part of Baltimore - Penn North. 

We used the NADA protocol.  I use it a lot in my practice now.  I think it

would be a good way to start a community practice.  If I were doing this now I

would start with NADA and add treatment on distal points (e.g. Balance Method to

relieve pain).

 

Anne

 

Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

www.LaPlataAcupunct ure.com

 

-

" daniel.schulman " <daniel.schulman@ >

" Traditional " <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

com>

Friday, January 22, 2010 7:02:42 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

 Re: Community Acupuncture

 

 

 

Threading GV 20 to Kidney 1 can be very powerful in a pinch.

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " Tangela " <pershawn@..

..> wrote:

>

> Hi Everyone,

>

> I was wondering what were the points that are used during community

acupuncture? Are the auricular points used? I will take all comments and

expertise available.

>

> Thank You

>

> Tangela Bass, M.Ac, L.Ac

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

It seems you are well on your way.  If you are using the community setting for

stress relief, overall balancing, addiction relief, the NADA protocol should be

fine.  If you know Dr. Tan and want to provide pain relief, add his distal

points.

 

 

 

Anne

 

Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

 

-

" Tangela Bass " <pershawn

" Traditional "

<Chinese Medicine >

Monday, January 25, 2010 9:02:16 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

Re:  Re: Community Acupuncture

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Anne,

 

Thank you for your sharing.  I also went to penn north and ric in baltimore and

got some real good training in the nada protocol.  I just was hearing a lot

about community acupuncture and after getting all of this great feedback.  I

realize that I can just use the teachings that I learned from Tai to treat my

patients and apply that to all that I want to do.

 

Thanks for your positive and thoughtful feedback

 

Tangela Bass, M.Ac, L.Ac, Dipl. Ac.

Acupuncture Detox Specialist

 

" For the mind to flower it has to go

beyond what it knows " -Mother Meera

 

 

 

 

 

--- On Mon, 1/25/10, Anne Crowley < anne.crowley > wrote:

 

Anne Crowley < anne.crowley >

Re: Re: Community Acupuncture

" Traditional " <

Chinese Medicine >

Monday, January 25, 2010, 9:28 AM

 

 

 

Wow, I don't know if I would want to do that in a Community setting.

 

Tangela, I am not running a community acupuncture group; however, I had to do

intensive work in drug rehab clinics to complete my acupuncture clinical hours.

The clinics were in inner city Baltimore - The book, The Corner " was written

about the area we went into.  The book was written a few years before we went

into that area.  We were already in another part of Baltimore - Penn North. 

We used the NADA protocol.  I use it a lot in my practice now.  I think it

would be a good way to start a community practice.  If I were doing this now I

would start with NADA and add treatment on distal points (e.g. Balance Method to

relieve pain).

 

Anne

 

Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

www.LaPlataAcupunct ure.com

 

-

" daniel.schulman " <daniel.schulman@ >

" Traditional " <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

com>

Friday, January 22, 2010 7:02:42 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

 Re: Community Acupuncture

 

 

 

Threading GV 20 to Kidney 1 can be very powerful in a pinch.

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " Tangela " <pershawn@..

..> wrote:

>

> Hi Everyone,

>

> I was wondering what were the points that are used during community

acupuncture? Are the auricular points used? I will take all comments and

expertise available.

>

> Thank You

>

> Tangela Bass, M.Ac, L.Ac

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

 

I don't want to beat a dead horse ... I don't know if it has been beaten yet,

but I want to talk about some specifics about community acupuncture.

 

This post was started by a practitioner asking about what points were used for

community acupuncture. The majority of responses said that you could use any

points based on your experience level (or understanding).

 

I have a run a community clinic in Portland, Or for the last 4 years. So I am

not some naive practitioner talking about something with which I have no

experience.

 

My clinic runs from 9:30am to 6:30pm Mondays and Thursdays. On my busiest day,

I saw 26 patients. I am the only one practicing. I treat with herbs and

acupuncture. I don't limit myself to a certain point set. I charge a sliding

fee between $20 and $40 dependent on where a patient feels that they are at. I

treat anything from pain to emotional disturbance and chronic disease.

 

I want to talk about the potential problems this method of treatment has for our

profession. Sure we can treat a lot of people in this manner, and open up the

treatment for a lot of people that couldn't otherwise afford it, but I ask my

peers, is it really for the best?

 

The average practitioner who treats privately treats between 12 and 20 patients

in a day if they are treating private patients, and charging full fee, either in

cash or by billing insurance. I am coming to believe that it takes a patient

load in the thousands in order to maintain an average case load of patients.

For example if you have a patient that comes once a week or once a month, and

the average practitioner works 10 hours a day (if that), then it would take 200

visits (at one patient an hour) to fill that practitioners calender for the

month (600 patients if they treat 3 patients an hour). This is a substantial

amount of patients, but nothing compared to a group clinic.

 

When I am treating in group (or community style) I can treat between 6 to 8

patients in an hour. That means, if I did that 5 days a week, I would treat up

to 72 patients per day and 360 patients per week. This means a total of 1,440

patients per month (to have a full practice). At my normal idea of the way

things work, I would think that this would mean a case load of 10 * the number I

could possibly see. So that I would have an active case load of 14,400

patients.

 

Portland is a community that is well saturated with all kinds of health care

workers, acupuncture in particular. I can count at least 4 if not 6 community

clinics off of the top of my head. Working class has at least 4 affiliated

clinics, then mine, and a couple in the SE. Start doing the math... 10

community clinics in a city center ='s a case load of 144,000 patients. In

Portland this is 1/10th of the population. That means that the other 300+

acupuncturists that are here have to compete with clinics that are offering

prices that are about 2/3 lower then the private clinics around town.

 

Which gets me to my point. In any other field, when someone comes in with a

price that is so below the average cost, what it does is destroys the market for

any legitimate business that is in the field. You may think that it is ok,

because you accept insurance, and the people that do Community acupuncture may

think it is ok, because they don't accept insurance, but in the end what will

happen is that the insurance companies will understand that there is something

out there called community acupuncture, and if they pay for that over a private

treatment, they will save 3 to 1 on their dollar.

 

Costs for learning this medicine keep going up, not down. The community model,

while catering to a large audience will inevitably effect each of our bottom

lines. Patients do not understand the difference between a community session

and a private session. They do not understand that community acupuncture is a

limited modality, that a practitioner is almost never using all of their skills

to do it.

 

Worse, I have had patient who have come to me and describe the points that have

been used on them, and I read formula acupuncture into how they have been

treated.

 

I think that this is something our profession needs to consider. The community

model is continuing to gain strength. Schools such as SIOM are starting to

change their teaching style to mold to this dynamic, but I ask you is it for the

good of our community? Is it for the good of the practitioners? Or will we

become nothing more then another service economy working for $15.00 per hour,

because our skills are not valued by the public. I believe that there are

several choices here. You either jump on the bandwagon of community acupuncture

now, or you get caught holding (and paying for) the groceries in the long run.

This is less then ideal. In the long run a community clinic is subsistence

living at best. Unless you run your business as a non-profit, I am truly

concerned that this model will change the expectations of patients as to the

effectiveness of acupuncture.

 

Sincerely,

 

L.Ac.

The Database

[Guest guest]

I'm not doing community acupuncture, but I believe in the free-market

system.

We all have choices to make and different conditions and circumstances we

work in.

People with the resources will still pay premium price to go for the people

with reputations and specific skill-sets.

They will not want to pay $20 for their health, just as they will not pay $5

for their dinners.

 

Someone told me something that stuck with me...

if you start seeing people as numbers, then you're more of a business person

than medicine person.

If it's a numbers game, your light might burn out faster.

 

K

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:06 AM, Chinese Medicine <jonk2012

> wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi all,

>

> I don't want to beat a dead horse ... I don't know if it has been beaten

> yet, but I want to talk about some specifics about community acupuncture.

>

> This post was started by a practitioner asking about what points were used

> for community acupuncture. The majority of responses said that you could use

> any points based on your experience level (or understanding).

>

> I have a run a community clinic in Portland, Or for the last 4 years. So I

> am not some naive practitioner talking about something with which I have no

> experience.

>

> My clinic runs from 9:30am to 6:30pm Mondays and Thursdays. On my busiest

> day, I saw 26 patients. I am the only one practicing. I treat with herbs and

> acupuncture. I don't limit myself to a certain point set. I charge a sliding

> fee between $20 and $40 dependent on where a patient feels that they are at.

> I treat anything from pain to emotional disturbance and chronic disease.

>

> I want to talk about the potential problems this method of treatment has

> for our profession. Sure we can treat a lot of people in this manner, and

> open up the treatment for a lot of people that couldn't otherwise afford it,

> but I ask my peers, is it really for the best?

>

> The average practitioner who treats privately treats between 12 and 20

> patients in a day if they are treating private patients, and charging full

> fee, either in cash or by billing insurance. I am coming to believe that it

> takes a patient load in the thousands in order to maintain an average case

> load of patients. For example if you have a patient that comes once a week

> or once a month, and the average practitioner works 10 hours a day (if

> that), then it would take 200 visits (at one patient an hour) to fill that

> practitioners calender for the month (600 patients if they treat 3 patients

> an hour). This is a substantial amount of patients, but nothing compared to

> a group clinic.

>

> When I am treating in group (or community style) I can treat between 6 to 8

> patients in an hour. That means, if I did that 5 days a week, I would treat

> up to 72 patients per day and 360 patients per week. This means a total of

> 1,440 patients per month (to have a full practice). At my normal idea of the

> way things work, I would think that this would mean a case load of 10 * the

> number I could possibly see. So that I would have an active case load of

> 14,400 patients.

>

> Portland is a community that is well saturated with all kinds of health

> care workers, acupuncture in particular. I can count at least 4 if not 6

> community clinics off of the top of my head. Working class has at least 4

> affiliated clinics, then mine, and a couple in the SE. Start doing the

> math... 10 community clinics in a city center ='s a case load of 144,000

> patients. In Portland this is 1/10th of the population. That means that the

> other 300+ acupuncturists that are here have to compete with clinics that

> are offering prices that are about 2/3 lower then the private clinics around

> town.

>

> Which gets me to my point. In any other field, when someone comes in with a

> price that is so below the average cost, what it does is destroys the market

> for any legitimate business that is in the field. You may think that it is

> ok, because you accept insurance, and the people that do Community

> acupuncture may think it is ok, because they don't accept insurance, but in

> the end what will happen is that the insurance companies will understand

> that there is something out there called community acupuncture, and if they

> pay for that over a private treatment, they will save 3 to 1 on their

> dollar.

>

> Costs for learning this medicine keep going up, not down. The community

> model, while catering to a large audience will inevitably effect each of our

> bottom lines. Patients do not understand the difference between a community

> session and a private session. They do not understand that community

> acupuncture is a limited modality, that a practitioner is almost never using

> all of their skills to do it.

>

> Worse, I have had patient who have come to me and describe the points that

> have been used on them, and I read formula acupuncture into how they have

> been treated.

>

> I think that this is something our profession needs to consider. The

> community model is continuing to gain strength. Schools such as SIOM are

> starting to change their teaching style to mold to this dynamic, but I ask

> you is it for the good of our community? Is it for the good of the

> practitioners? Or will we become nothing more then another service economy

> working for $15.00 per hour, because our skills are not valued by the

> public. I believe that there are several choices here. You either jump on

> the bandwagon of community acupuncture now, or you get caught holding (and

> paying for) the groceries in the long run. This is less then ideal. In the

> long run a community clinic is subsistence living at best. Unless you run

> your business as a non-profit, I am truly concerned that this model will

> change the expectations of patients as to the effectiveness of acupuncture.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> L.Ac.

> The Database

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

""

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

While the concept of community acupuncture is honorable, I think it does more

disservice to both the practitioner as well as the patient.

 

For the practitioner, it takes away from his income by lowering his fees and

making him do much more work for the same or lower income.

 

For the patient, they are getting less of a treatment and not understanding the

difference between the treatment in community acupuncture and that from a

private practitioner.

 

I hear every day from people that they tried acupuncture and it didn't work for

them. My first question to them is " Who gave you the acupuncture treatment? "

Usually it is from a doctor or chiropractor and sometimes it is from the

community acupuncture physician.

 

Guys, we have enough obstacles to overcome. Do we need one more?

 

I never turn away patients who cannot pay full price. I work out deals and

sliding scales and barter and whatever I have to do to get them well. I also

make sure they understand the value of what they are receiving. This is the most

important concept in the treatment. Whether I charge them $100 or $30 they

understand the treatment is still very valuable and treat it as such. They are

also more compliant.

 

Community acupuncture cheapens us and hurts all of us. I see ads on websites

stating that acupuncture treatments are too expensive. I feel these are attacks

from inside our field from people who don't understand what they are doing.

 

I think AWB does fantastic work and will be training with them, but I will not

open a community acupuncture clinic.

 

Lee Tritt

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

<johnkokko

Chinese Medicine

Tue, March 2, 2010 2:58:05 AM

Re: Re: Community Acupuncture

 

I'm not doing community acupuncture, but I believe in the free-market

system.

We all have choices to make and different conditions and circumstances we

work in.

People with the resources will still pay premium price to go for the people

with reputations and specific skill-sets.

They will not want to pay $20 for their health, just as they will not pay $5

for their dinners.

 

Someone told me something that stuck with me...

if you start seeing people as numbers, then you're more of a business person

than medicine person.

If it's a numbers game, your light might burn out faster.

 

K

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:06 AM, Chinese Medicine <jonk2012

> wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi all,

>

> I don't want to beat a dead horse ... I don't know if it has been beaten

> yet, but I want to talk about some specifics about community acupuncture.

>

> This post was started by a practitioner asking about what points were used

> for community acupuncture. The majority of responses said that you could use

> any points based on your experience level (or understanding).

>

> I have a run a community clinic in Portland, Or for the last 4 years. So I

> am not some naive practitioner talking about something with which I have no

> experience.

>

> My clinic runs from 9:30am to 6:30pm Mondays and Thursdays. On my busiest

> day, I saw 26 patients. I am the only one practicing. I treat with herbs and

> acupuncture. I don't limit myself to a certain point set. I charge a sliding

> fee between $20 and $40 dependent on where a patient feels that they are at.

> I treat anything from pain to emotional disturbance and chronic disease.

>

> I want to talk about the potential problems this method of treatment has

> for our profession. Sure we can treat a lot of people in this manner, and

> open up the treatment for a lot of people that couldn't otherwise afford it,

> but I ask my peers, is it really for the best?

>

> The average practitioner who treats privately treats between 12 and 20

> patients in a day if they are treating private patients, and charging full

> fee, either in cash or by billing insurance. I am coming to believe that it

> takes a patient load in the thousands in order to maintain an average case

> load of patients. For example if you have a patient that comes once a week

> or once a month, and the average practitioner works 10 hours a day (if

> that), then it would take 200 visits (at one patient an hour) to fill that

> practitioners calender for the month (600 patients if they treat 3 patients

> an hour). This is a substantial amount of patients, but nothing compared to

> a group clinic.

>

> When I am treating in group (or community style) I can treat between 6 to 8

> patients in an hour. That means, if I did that 5 days a week, I would treat

> up to 72 patients per day and 360 patients per week. This means a total of

> 1,440 patients per month (to have a full practice). At my normal idea of the

> way things work, I would think that this would mean a case load of 10 * the

> number I could possibly see. So that I would have an active case load of

> 14,400 patients.

>

> Portland is a community that is well saturated with all kinds of health

> care workers, acupuncture in particular. I can count at least 4 if not 6

> community clinics off of the top of my head. Working class has at least 4

> affiliated clinics, then mine, and a couple in the SE. Start doing the

> math... 10 community clinics in a city center ='s a case load of 144,000

> patients. In Portland this is 1/10th of the population. That means that the

> other 300+ acupuncturists that are here have to compete with clinics that

> are offering prices that are about 2/3 lower then the private clinics around

> town.

>

> Which gets me to my point. In any other field, when someone comes in with a

> price that is so below the average cost, what it does is destroys the market

> for any legitimate business that is in the field. You may think that it is

> ok, because you accept insurance, and the people that do Community

> acupuncture may think it is ok, because they don't accept insurance, but in

> the end what will happen is that the insurance companies will understand

> that there is something out there called community acupuncture, and if they

> pay for that over a private treatment, they will save 3 to 1 on their

> dollar.

>

> Costs for learning this medicine keep going up, not down. The community

> model, while catering to a large audience will inevitably effect each of our

> bottom lines. Patients do not understand the difference between a community

> session and a private session. They do not understand that community

> acupuncture is a limited modality, that a practitioner is almost never using

> all of their skills to do it.

>

> Worse, I have had patient who have come to me and describe the points that

> have been used on them, and I read formula acupuncture into how they have

> been treated.

>

> I think that this is something our profession needs to consider. The

> community model is continuing to gain strength. Schools such as SIOM are

> starting to change their teaching style to mold to this dynamic, but I ask

> you is it for the good of our community? Is it for the good of the

> practitioners? Or will we become nothing more then another service economy

> working for $15.00 per hour, because our skills are not valued by the

> public. I believe that there are several choices here. You either jump on

> the bandwagon of community acupuncture now, or you get caught holding (and

> paying for) the groceries in the long run. This is less then ideal. In the

> long run a community clinic is subsistence living at best. Unless you run

> your business as a non-profit, I am truly concerned that this model will

> change the expectations of patients as to the effectiveness of acupuncture.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> L.Ac.

> The Database

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

""

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

John,

 

 

 

Do you really believe that the so-called " free market " actually works for

healthcare? The free market is being denied in our current national healthcare

debates, by removing competition. We have currently have a monopoly that runs

most of it. It does not work.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

> Chinese Medicine

> johnkokko

> Mon, 1 Mar 2010 23:58:05 -0800

> Re: Re: Community Acupuncture

>

> I'm not doing community acupuncture, but I believe in the free-market

> system.

> We all have choices to make and different conditions and circumstances we

> work in.

> People with the resources will still pay premium price to go for the people

> with reputations and specific skill-sets.

> They will not want to pay $20 for their health, just as they will not pay $5

> for their dinners.

>

> Someone told me something that stuck with me...

> if you start seeing people as numbers, then you're more of a business person

> than medicine person.

> If it's a numbers game, your light might burn out faster.

>

> K

>

>

>

> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:06 AM, Chinese Medicine <jonk2012

> > wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Hi all,

> >

> > I don't want to beat a dead horse ... I don't know if it has been beaten

> > yet, but I want to talk about some specifics about community acupuncture.

> >

> > This post was started by a practitioner asking about what points were used

> > for community acupuncture. The majority of responses said that you could use

> > any points based on your experience level (or understanding).

> >

> > I have a run a community clinic in Portland, Or for the last 4 years. So I

> > am not some naive practitioner talking about something with which I have no

> > experience.

> >

> > My clinic runs from 9:30am to 6:30pm Mondays and Thursdays. On my busiest

> > day, I saw 26 patients. I am the only one practicing. I treat with herbs and

> > acupuncture. I don't limit myself to a certain point set. I charge a sliding

> > fee between $20 and $40 dependent on where a patient feels that they are at.

> > I treat anything from pain to emotional disturbance and chronic disease.

> >

> > I want to talk about the potential problems this method of treatment has

> > for our profession. Sure we can treat a lot of people in this manner, and

> > open up the treatment for a lot of people that couldn't otherwise afford it,

> > but I ask my peers, is it really for the best?

> >

> > The average practitioner who treats privately treats between 12 and 20

> > patients in a day if they are treating private patients, and charging full

> > fee, either in cash or by billing insurance. I am coming to believe that it

> > takes a patient load in the thousands in order to maintain an average case

> > load of patients. For example if you have a patient that comes once a week

> > or once a month, and the average practitioner works 10 hours a day (if

> > that), then it would take 200 visits (at one patient an hour) to fill that

> > practitioners calender for the month (600 patients if they treat 3 patients

> > an hour). This is a substantial amount of patients, but nothing compared to

> > a group clinic.

> >

> > When I am treating in group (or community style) I can treat between 6 to 8

> > patients in an hour. That means, if I did that 5 days a week, I would treat

> > up to 72 patients per day and 360 patients per week. This means a total of

> > 1,440 patients per month (to have a full practice). At my normal idea of the

> > way things work, I would think that this would mean a case load of 10 * the

> > number I could possibly see. So that I would have an active case load of

> > 14,400 patients.

> >

> > Portland is a community that is well saturated with all kinds of health

> > care workers, acupuncture in particular. I can count at least 4 if not 6

> > community clinics off of the top of my head. Working class has at least 4

> > affiliated clinics, then mine, and a couple in the SE. Start doing the

> > math... 10 community clinics in a city center ='s a case load of 144,000

> > patients. In Portland this is 1/10th of the population. That means that the

> > other 300+ acupuncturists that are here have to compete with clinics that

> > are offering prices that are about 2/3 lower then the private clinics around

> > town.

> >

> > Which gets me to my point. In any other field, when someone comes in with a

> > price that is so below the average cost, what it does is destroys the market

> > for any legitimate business that is in the field. You may think that it is

> > ok, because you accept insurance, and the people that do Community

> > acupuncture may think it is ok, because they don't accept insurance, but in

> > the end what will happen is that the insurance companies will understand

> > that there is something out there called community acupuncture, and if they

> > pay for that over a private treatment, they will save 3 to 1 on their

> > dollar.

> >

> > Costs for learning this medicine keep going up, not down. The community

> > model, while catering to a large audience will inevitably effect each of our

> > bottom lines. Patients do not understand the difference between a community

> > session and a private session. They do not understand that community

> > acupuncture is a limited modality, that a practitioner is almost never using

> > all of their skills to do it.

> >

> > Worse, I have had patient who have come to me and describe the points that

> > have been used on them, and I read formula acupuncture into how they have

> > been treated.

> >

> > I think that this is something our profession needs to consider. The

> > community model is continuing to gain strength. Schools such as SIOM are

> > starting to change their teaching style to mold to this dynamic, but I ask

> > you is it for the good of our community? Is it for the good of the

> > practitioners? Or will we become nothing more then another service economy

> > working for $15.00 per hour, because our skills are not valued by the

> > public. I believe that there are several choices here. You either jump on

> > the bandwagon of community acupuncture now, or you get caught holding (and

> > paying for) the groceries in the long run. This is less then ideal. In the

> > long run a community clinic is subsistence living at best. Unless you run

> > your business as a non-profit, I am truly concerned that this model will

> > change the expectations of patients as to the effectiveness of acupuncture.

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> > L.Ac.

> > The Database

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

>

>

> ""

>

>

> www.tcmreview.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Mike,

I uphold the idea of the free market system, although you're right that AMA

at the turn of the 20th century almost completely eliminated all competition

in the U.S. and in the early 50's created a pharmaceutically controlled

medical business, which later developed into an insurance racket. Like I

said, I don't support the acupuncture model of not doing a thorough

diagnosis and treatment (acupuncture, and not being able to do much with

herbs, bodywork, cupping, moxa, gua-sha, education etc.), which I'm guessing

can happen a lot if you're seeing over 4 patients in an hour by yourself

without assistants. But at the same time, I think that they have a right to

practice, as long as it's ethical. Do you feel that the CA model in

un-ethical? What about AWB. How is this different?... because it's free

or even cheaper? Less diagnosis and less treatment (NADA protocol for

everyone). Is the CA model squashing competition or just making acupuncture

accessible for a certain socio-economic group? Is it Big-Box or Out of

the box?

 

Otherwise, I have nothing against community-style acupuncture, as long as

people know that they're getting less time for diagnosis and treatment. I

get ex-community acupuncture patients coming in to my clinic, because they

want something else. CA introduced them to give acupuncture a shot, since

it was affordable. I've also heard of people getting healthier from going

to CA clinics, as well. I just think the practitioner will get burned out

really quick (both mentally and physically) from treating patients that way.

 

K

 

 

 

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 7:28 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

>

>

>

> John,

>

> Do you really believe that the so-called " free market " actually works for

> healthcare? The free market is being denied in our current national

> healthcare debates, by removing competition. We have currently have a

> monopoly that runs most of it. It does not work.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>

> > Mon, 1 Mar 2010 23:58:05 -0800

>

> > Re: Re: Community Acupuncture

> >

> > I'm not doing community acupuncture, but I believe in the free-market

> > system.

> > We all have choices to make and different conditions and circumstances we

> > work in.

> > People with the resources will still pay premium price to go for the

> people

> > with reputations and specific skill-sets.

> > They will not want to pay $20 for their health, just as they will not pay

> $5

> > for their dinners.

> >

> > Someone told me something that stuck with me...

> > if you start seeing people as numbers, then you're more of a business

> person

> > than medicine person.

> > If it's a numbers game, your light might burn out faster.

> >

> > K

> >

> >

> >

> > On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:06 AM, Chinese Medicine <

> jonk2012 <jonk2012%40>

> > > wrote:

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi all,

> > >

> > > I don't want to beat a dead horse ... I don't know if it has been

> beaten

> > > yet, but I want to talk about some specifics about community

> acupuncture.

> > >

> > > This post was started by a practitioner asking about what points were

> used

> > > for community acupuncture. The majority of responses said that you

> could use

> > > any points based on your experience level (or understanding).

> > >

> > > I have a run a community clinic in Portland, Or for the last 4 years.

> So I

> > > am not some naive practitioner talking about something with which I

> have no

> > > experience.

> > >

> > > My clinic runs from 9:30am to 6:30pm Mondays and Thursdays. On my

> busiest

> > > day, I saw 26 patients. I am the only one practicing. I treat with

> herbs and

> > > acupuncture. I don't limit myself to a certain point set. I charge a

> sliding

> > > fee between $20 and $40 dependent on where a patient feels that they

> are at.

> > > I treat anything from pain to emotional disturbance and chronic

> disease.

> > >

> > > I want to talk about the potential problems this method of treatment

> has

> > > for our profession. Sure we can treat a lot of people in this manner,

> and

> > > open up the treatment for a lot of people that couldn't otherwise

> afford it,

> > > but I ask my peers, is it really for the best?

> > >

> > > The average practitioner who treats privately treats between 12 and 20

> > > patients in a day if they are treating private patients, and charging

> full

> > > fee, either in cash or by billing insurance. I am coming to believe

> that it

> > > takes a patient load in the thousands in order to maintain an average

> case

> > > load of patients. For example if you have a patient that comes once a

> week

> > > or once a month, and the average practitioner works 10 hours a day (if

> > > that), then it would take 200 visits (at one patient an hour) to fill

> that

> > > practitioners calender for the month (600 patients if they treat 3

> patients

> > > an hour). This is a substantial amount of patients, but nothing

> compared to

> > > a group clinic.

> > >

> > > When I am treating in group (or community style) I can treat between 6

> to 8

> > > patients in an hour. That means, if I did that 5 days a week, I would

> treat

> > > up to 72 patients per day and 360 patients per week. This means a total

> of

> > > 1,440 patients per month (to have a full practice). At my normal idea

> of the

> > > way things work, I would think that this would mean a case load of 10 *

> the

> > > number I could possibly see. So that I would have an active case load

> of

> > > 14,400 patients.

> > >

> > > Portland is a community that is well saturated with all kinds of health

> > > care workers, acupuncture in particular. I can count at least 4 if not

> 6

> > > community clinics off of the top of my head. Working class has at least

> 4

> > > affiliated clinics, then mine, and a couple in the SE. Start doing the

> > > math... 10 community clinics in a city center ='s a case load of

> 144,000

> > > patients. In Portland this is 1/10th of the population. That means that

> the

> > > other 300+ acupuncturists that are here have to compete with clinics

> that

> > > are offering prices that are about 2/3 lower then the private clinics

> around

> > > town.

> > >

> > > Which gets me to my point. In any other field, when someone comes in

> with a

> > > price that is so below the average cost, what it does is destroys the

> market

> > > for any legitimate business that is in the field. You may think that it

> is

> > > ok, because you accept insurance, and the people that do Community

> > > acupuncture may think it is ok, because they don't accept insurance,

> but in

> > > the end what will happen is that the insurance companies will

> understand

> > > that there is something out there called community acupuncture, and if

> they

> > > pay for that over a private treatment, they will save 3 to 1 on their

> > > dollar.

> > >

> > > Costs for learning this medicine keep going up, not down. The community

> > > model, while catering to a large audience will inevitably effect each

> of our

> > > bottom lines. Patients do not understand the difference between a

> community

> > > session and a private session. They do not understand that community

> > > acupuncture is a limited modality, that a practitioner is almost never

> using

> > > all of their skills to do it.

> > >

> > > Worse, I have had patient who have come to me and describe the points

> that

> > > have been used on them, and I read formula acupuncture into how they

> have

> > > been treated.

> > >

> > > I think that this is something our profession needs to consider. The

> > > community model is continuing to gain strength. Schools such as SIOM

> are

> > > starting to change their teaching style to mold to this dynamic, but I

> ask

> > > you is it for the good of our community? Is it for the good of the

> > > practitioners? Or will we become nothing more then another service

> economy

> > > working for $15.00 per hour, because our skills are not valued by the

> > > public. I believe that there are several choices here. You either jump

> on

> > > the bandwagon of community acupuncture now, or you get caught holding

> (and

> > > paying for) the groceries in the long run. This is less then ideal. In

> the

> > > long run a community clinic is subsistence living at best. Unless you

> run

> > > your business as a non-profit, I am truly concerned that this model

> will

> > > change the expectations of patients as to the effectiveness of

> acupuncture.

> > >

> > > Sincerely,

> > >

> > > L.Ac.

> > > The Database

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > --

> >

> >

> > ""

> >

> >

> > www.tcmreview.com

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Here are the membership requirements from the CAN bylaws:

 

2. Community Acupuncture shall be defined as including clinics that meet the

following criteria:

 

a. Group treatment spaces (no private acupuncture treatments)

 

b. If a sliding scale is used, it is somewhere between $15 and $40 with no

greater than a $15

 

surcharge for the initial treatment.

 

c. If a flat rate is charged, it’s $30 or less.

 

d. No proof of income is required or requested.

 

e. Herbal consults are charged at the same rates as the community

acupuncture rates above.

 

f. The clinic must be open at least three days a week.

 

http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/sites/allBy-Laws.pdf

 

 

If you don't follow all of these requirements, you can't be a CAN member.

 

A. is the kicker... no private acupuncture treatments. I have friends who

aren't part of CAN because they still want to see private patients and they

don't want to do CA at least 3 days/ week. Anyway, CAN can make up their

own rules and people can choose to join or not.

 

 

K

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 8:34 AM, <johnkokko wrote:

 

> Mike,

> I uphold the idea of the free market system, although you're right that AMA

> at the turn of the 20th century almost completely eliminated all competition

> in the U.S. and in the early 50's created a pharmaceutically controlled

> medical business, which later developed into an insurance racket. Like I

> said, I don't support the acupuncture model of not doing a thorough

> diagnosis and treatment (acupuncture, and not being able to do much with

> herbs, bodywork, cupping, moxa, gua-sha, education etc.), which I'm guessing

> can happen a lot if you're seeing over 4 patients in an hour by yourself

> without assistants. But at the same time, I think that they have a right to

> practice, as long as it's ethical. Do you feel that the CA model in

> un-ethical? What about AWB. How is this different?... because it's free

> or even cheaper? Less diagnosis and less treatment (NADA protocol for

> everyone). Is the CA model squashing competition or just making acupuncture

> accessible for a certain socio-economic group? Is it Big-Box or Out of

> the box?

>

> Otherwise, I have nothing against community-style acupuncture, as long as

> people know that they're getting less time for diagnosis and treatment. I

> get ex-community acupuncture patients coming in to my clinic, because they

> want something else. CA introduced them to give acupuncture a shot, since

> it was affordable. I've also heard of people getting healthier from going

> to CA clinics, as well. I just think the practitioner will get burned out

> really quick (both mentally and physically) from treating patients that way.

>

> K

>

>

>

> On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 7:28 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1wrote:

>

>>

>>

>>

>> John,

>>

>> Do you really believe that the so-called " free market " actually works for

>> healthcare? The free market is being denied in our current national

>> healthcare debates, by removing competition. We have currently have a

>> monopoly that runs most of it. It does not work.

>>

>> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>>

>> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

>> > johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>

>> > Mon, 1 Mar 2010 23:58:05 -0800

>>

>> > Re: Re: Community Acupuncture

>> >

>> > I'm not doing community acupuncture, but I believe in the free-market

>> > system.

>> > We all have choices to make and different conditions and circumstances

>> we

>> > work in.

>> > People with the resources will still pay premium price to go for the

>> people

>> > with reputations and specific skill-sets.

>> > They will not want to pay $20 for their health, just as they will not

>> pay $5

>> > for their dinners.

>> >

>> > Someone told me something that stuck with me...

>> > if you start seeing people as numbers, then you're more of a business

>> person

>> > than medicine person.

>> > If it's a numbers game, your light might burn out faster.

>> >

>> > K

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:06 AM, Chinese Medicine <

>> jonk2012 <jonk2012%40>

>> > > wrote:

>> >

>> > >

>> > >

>> > > Hi all,

>> > >

>> > > I don't want to beat a dead horse ... I don't know if it has been

>> beaten

>> > > yet, but I want to talk about some specifics about community

>> acupuncture.

>> > >

>> > > This post was started by a practitioner asking about what points were

>> used

>> > > for community acupuncture. The majority of responses said that you

>> could use

>> > > any points based on your experience level (or understanding).

>> > >

>> > > I have a run a community clinic in Portland, Or for the last 4 years.

>> So I

>> > > am not some naive practitioner talking about something with which I

>> have no

>> > > experience.

>> > >

>> > > My clinic runs from 9:30am to 6:30pm Mondays and Thursdays. On my

>> busiest

>> > > day, I saw 26 patients. I am the only one practicing. I treat with

>> herbs and

>> > > acupuncture. I don't limit myself to a certain point set. I charge a

>> sliding

>> > > fee between $20 and $40 dependent on where a patient feels that they

>> are at.

>> > > I treat anything from pain to emotional disturbance and chronic

>> disease.

>> > >

>> > > I want to talk about the potential problems this method of treatment

>> has

>> > > for our profession. Sure we can treat a lot of people in this manner,

>> and

>> > > open up the treatment for a lot of people that couldn't otherwise

>> afford it,

>> > > but I ask my peers, is it really for the best?

>> > >

>> > > The average practitioner who treats privately treats between 12 and 20

>> > > patients in a day if they are treating private patients, and charging

>> full

>> > > fee, either in cash or by billing insurance. I am coming to believe

>> that it

>> > > takes a patient load in the thousands in order to maintain an average

>> case

>> > > load of patients. For example if you have a patient that comes once a

>> week

>> > > or once a month, and the average practitioner works 10 hours a day (if

>> > > that), then it would take 200 visits (at one patient an hour) to fill

>> that

>> > > practitioners calender for the month (600 patients if they treat 3

>> patients

>> > > an hour). This is a substantial amount of patients, but nothing

>> compared to

>> > > a group clinic.

>> > >

>> > > When I am treating in group (or community style) I can treat between 6

>> to 8

>> > > patients in an hour. That means, if I did that 5 days a week, I would

>> treat

>> > > up to 72 patients per day and 360 patients per week. This means a

>> total of

>> > > 1,440 patients per month (to have a full practice). At my normal idea

>> of the

>> > > way things work, I would think that this would mean a case load of 10

>> * the

>> > > number I could possibly see. So that I would have an active case load

>> of

>> > > 14,400 patients.

>> > >

>> > > Portland is a community that is well saturated with all kinds of

>> health

>> > > care workers, acupuncture in particular. I can count at least 4 if not

>> 6

>> > > community clinics off of the top of my head. Working class has at

>> least 4

>> > > affiliated clinics, then mine, and a couple in the SE. Start doing the

>> > > math... 10 community clinics in a city center ='s a case load of

>> 144,000

>> > > patients. In Portland this is 1/10th of the population. That means

>> that the

>> > > other 300+ acupuncturists that are here have to compete with clinics

>> that

>> > > are offering prices that are about 2/3 lower then the private clinics

>> around

>> > > town.

>> > >

>> > > Which gets me to my point. In any other field, when someone comes in

>> with a

>> > > price that is so below the average cost, what it does is destroys the

>> market

>> > > for any legitimate business that is in the field. You may think that

>> it is

>> > > ok, because you accept insurance, and the people that do Community

>> > > acupuncture may think it is ok, because they don't accept insurance,

>> but in

>> > > the end what will happen is that the insurance companies will

>> understand

>> > > that there is something out there called community acupuncture, and if

>> they

>> > > pay for that over a private treatment, they will save 3 to 1 on their

>> > > dollar.

>> > >

>> > > Costs for learning this medicine keep going up, not down. The

>> community

>> > > model, while catering to a large audience will inevitably effect each

>> of our

>> > > bottom lines. Patients do not understand the difference between a

>> community

>> > > session and a private session. They do not understand that community

>> > > acupuncture is a limited modality, that a practitioner is almost never

>> using

>> > > all of their skills to do it.

>> > >

>> > > Worse, I have had patient who have come to me and describe the points

>> that

>> > > have been used on them, and I read formula acupuncture into how they

>> have

>> > > been treated.

>> > >

>> > > I think that this is something our profession needs to consider. The

>> > > community model is continuing to gain strength. Schools such as SIOM

>> are

>> > > starting to change their teaching style to mold to this dynamic, but I

>> ask

>> > > you is it for the good of our community? Is it for the good of the

>> > > practitioners? Or will we become nothing more then another service

>> economy

>> > > working for $15.00 per hour, because our skills are not valued by the

>> > > public. I believe that there are several choices here. You either jump

>> on

>> > > the bandwagon of community acupuncture now, or you get caught holding

>> (and

>> > > paying for) the groceries in the long run. This is less then ideal. In

>> the

>> > > long run a community clinic is subsistence living at best. Unless you

>> run

>> > > your business as a non-profit, I am truly concerned that this model

>> will

>> > > change the expectations of patients as to the effectiveness of

>> acupuncture.

>> > >

>> > > Sincerely,

>> > >

>> > > L.Ac.

>> > > The Database

>> > >

>> > >

>> > >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > --

>> >

>> >

>> > ""

>> >

>> >

>> > www.tcmreview.com

>> >

>> >

>> >

[Guest guest]

My biggest concern with the CA model is reduction of treatment options as well

as little ability to control other aspects of your clinic, due to their rules.

CA is a business model and requires upholding their regulations for inclusion.

 

 

 

Years ago, my internship included treatment with many tables in the same room

separated by dividers. Not much of a difference with CAN except for the

restrictions and the marketing concept. Each practitioner must ask if they

think that this model would violate ethical rules. For myself, the idea of

limiting my treatment options according to their rules puts CAN above patient

care. If there is no place to perform an examination, for example, then I

would consider this a failure to follow the state acupuncture laws, which do

require exams to be performed prior to care. I know that this group is

supportive of educational reductions and education, I am not.

 

 

 

Let's remember that stress relief is not a TCM/OM diagnosis. I practice in a

predominat Asian population, and therefore see a lot of interesting conditions,

which need to be recognized and appropriately dealt with. I could not perform

correctly if I was a CAN practitioner. People should be aware of what this is

and what they offer. Check it out and if it works for you, great. Nice topic.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

> Chinese Medicine

> johnkokko

> Tue, 2 Mar 2010 08:34:52 -0800

> Re: Re: Community Acupuncture

>

> Mike,

> I uphold the idea of the free market system, although you're right that AMA

> at the turn of the 20th century almost completely eliminated all competition

> in the U.S. and in the early 50's created a pharmaceutically controlled

> medical business, which later developed into an insurance racket. Like I

> said, I don't support the acupuncture model of not doing a thorough

> diagnosis and treatment (acupuncture, and not being able to do much with

> herbs, bodywork, cupping, moxa, gua-sha, education etc.), which I'm guessing

> can happen a lot if you're seeing over 4 patients in an hour by yourself

> without assistants. But at the same time, I think that they have a right to

> practice, as long as it's ethical. Do you feel that the CA model in

> un-ethical? What about AWB. How is this different?... because it's free

> or even cheaper? Less diagnosis and less treatment (NADA protocol for

> everyone). Is the CA model squashing competition or just making acupuncture

> accessible for a certain socio-economic group? Is it Big-Box or Out of

> the box?

>

> Otherwise, I have nothing against community-style acupuncture, as long as

> people know that they're getting less time for diagnosis and treatment. I

> get ex-community acupuncture patients coming in to my clinic, because they

> want something else. CA introduced them to give acupuncture a shot, since

> it was affordable. I've also heard of people getting healthier from going

> to CA clinics, as well. I just think the practitioner will get burned out

> really quick (both mentally and physically) from treating patients that way.

>

> K

>

>

>

> On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 7:28 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

> >

> >

> >

> > John,

> >

> > Do you really believe that the so-called " free market " actually works for

> > healthcare? The free market is being denied in our current national

> > healthcare debates, by removing competition. We have currently have a

> > monopoly that runs most of it. It does not work.

> >

> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > > johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>

> > > Mon, 1 Mar 2010 23:58:05 -0800

> >

> > > Re: Re: Community Acupuncture

> > >

> > > I'm not doing community acupuncture, but I believe in the free-market

> > > system.

> > > We all have choices to make and different conditions and circumstances we

> > > work in.

> > > People with the resources will still pay premium price to go for the

> > people

> > > with reputations and specific skill-sets.

> > > They will not want to pay $20 for their health, just as they will not pay

> > $5

> > > for their dinners.

> > >

> > > Someone told me something that stuck with me...

> > > if you start seeing people as numbers, then you're more of a business

> > person

> > > than medicine person.

> > > If it's a numbers game, your light might burn out faster.

> > >

> > > K

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:06 AM, Chinese Medicine <

> > jonk2012 <jonk2012%40>

> > > > wrote:

> > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hi all,

> > > >

> > > > I don't want to beat a dead horse ... I don't know if it has been

> > beaten

> > > > yet, but I want to talk about some specifics about community

> > acupuncture.

> > > >

> > > > This post was started by a practitioner asking about what points were

> > used

> > > > for community acupuncture. The majority of responses said that you

> > could use

> > > > any points based on your experience level (or understanding).

> > > >

> > > > I have a run a community clinic in Portland, Or for the last 4 years.

> > So I

> > > > am not some naive practitioner talking about something with which I

> > have no

> > > > experience.

> > > >

> > > > My clinic runs from 9:30am to 6:30pm Mondays and Thursdays. On my

> > busiest

> > > > day, I saw 26 patients. I am the only one practicing. I treat with

> > herbs and

> > > > acupuncture. I don't limit myself to a certain point set. I charge a

> > sliding

> > > > fee between $20 and $40 dependent on where a patient feels that they

> > are at.

> > > > I treat anything from pain to emotional disturbance and chronic

> > disease.

> > > >

> > > > I want to talk about the potential problems this method of treatment

> > has

> > > > for our profession. Sure we can treat a lot of people in this manner,

> > and

> > > > open up the treatment for a lot of people that couldn't otherwise

> > afford it,

> > > > but I ask my peers, is it really for the best?

> > > >

> > > > The average practitioner who treats privately treats between 12 and 20

> > > > patients in a day if they are treating private patients, and charging

> > full

> > > > fee, either in cash or by billing insurance. I am coming to believe

> > that it

> > > > takes a patient load in the thousands in order to maintain an average

> > case

> > > > load of patients. For example if you have a patient that comes once a

> > week

> > > > or once a month, and the average practitioner works 10 hours a day (if

> > > > that), then it would take 200 visits (at one patient an hour) to fill

> > that

> > > > practitioners calender for the month (600 patients if they treat 3

> > patients

> > > > an hour). This is a substantial amount of patients, but nothing

> > compared to

> > > > a group clinic.

> > > >

> > > > When I am treating in group (or community style) I can treat between 6

> > to 8

> > > > patients in an hour. That means, if I did that 5 days a week, I would

> > treat

> > > > up to 72 patients per day and 360 patients per week. This means a total

> > of

> > > > 1,440 patients per month (to have a full practice). At my normal idea

> > of the

> > > > way things work, I would think that this would mean a case load of 10 *

> > the

> > > > number I could possibly see. So that I would have an active case load

> > of

> > > > 14,400 patients.

> > > >

> > > > Portland is a community that is well saturated with all kinds of health

> > > > care workers, acupuncture in particular. I can count at least 4 if not

> > 6

> > > > community clinics off of the top of my head. Working class has at least

> > 4

> > > > affiliated clinics, then mine, and a couple in the SE. Start doing the

> > > > math... 10 community clinics in a city center ='s a case load of

> > 144,000

> > > > patients. In Portland this is 1/10th of the population. That means that

> > the

> > > > other 300+ acupuncturists that are here have to compete with clinics

> > that

> > > > are offering prices that are about 2/3 lower then the private clinics

> > around

> > > > town.

> > > >

> > > > Which gets me to my point. In any other field, when someone comes in

> > with a

> > > > price that is so below the average cost, what it does is destroys the

> > market

> > > > for any legitimate business that is in the field. You may think that it

> > is

> > > > ok, because you accept insurance, and the people that do Community

> > > > acupuncture may think it is ok, because they don't accept insurance,

> > but in

> > > > the end what will happen is that the insurance companies will

> > understand

> > > > that there is something out there called community acupuncture, and if

> > they

> > > > pay for that over a private treatment, they will save 3 to 1 on their

> > > > dollar.

> > > >

> > > > Costs for learning this medicine keep going up, not down. The community

> > > > model, while catering to a large audience will inevitably effect each

> > of our

> > > > bottom lines. Patients do not understand the difference between a

> > community

> > > > session and a private session. They do not understand that community

> > > > acupuncture is a limited modality, that a practitioner is almost never

> > using

> > > > all of their skills to do it.

> > > >

> > > > Worse, I have had patient who have come to me and describe the points

> > that

> > > > have been used on them, and I read formula acupuncture into how they

> > have

> > > > been treated.

> > > >

> > > > I think that this is something our profession needs to consider. The

> > > > community model is continuing to gain strength. Schools such as SIOM

> > are

> > > > starting to change their teaching style to mold to this dynamic, but I

> > ask

> > > > you is it for the good of our community? Is it for the good of the

> > > > practitioners? Or will we become nothing more then another service

> > economy

> > > > working for $15.00 per hour, because our skills are not valued by the

> > > > public. I believe that there are several choices here. You either jump

> > on

> > > > the bandwagon of community acupuncture now, or you get caught holding

> > (and

> > > > paying for) the groceries in the long run. This is less then ideal. In

> > the

> > > > long run a community clinic is subsistence living at best. Unless you

> > run

> > > > your business as a non-profit, I am truly concerned that this model

> > will

> > > > change the expectations of patients as to the effectiveness of

> > acupuncture.

> > > >

> > > > Sincerely,

> > > >

> > > > L.Ac.

> > > > The Database

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > --

> > >

> > >

> > > ""

> > >

> > >

> > > www.tcmreview.com

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

John Koko wrote: " If you don't follow all of these requirements, you can't be a

CAN member. "

 

 

 

That's not true. The " requirements " which you cited are only for CAN's

" Locate-A-Clinic " page, so that patients can easily find similar services when

they travel or refer friends/family in other cities. We have many members with

private rooms, hybrids, student-members who don't even practice yet, members who

charge more than $40, members who are open less than three days per week. I

*know* that you wou would be quite surprised at whom among you are members of

CAN!

 

 

 

 

 

: According to statistics in the January 2009 issue of

Acupuncture Today

(http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/acupuncture-today-and-terrible-\

horrible-no-good-very-bad-numbers), 99% of Americans are not receiving

acupuncture. Are you really going to cry to me about how there aren't enough

patients to go around?! Please.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

> Chinese Medicine

> johnkokko

> Tue, 2 Mar 2010 08:51:03 -0800

> Re: Re: Community Acupuncture

>

> Here are the membership requirements from the CAN bylaws:

>

> 2. Community Acupuncture shall be defined as including clinics that meet the

> following criteria:

>

> a. Group treatment spaces (no private acupuncture treatments)

>

> b. If a sliding scale is used, it is somewhere between $15 and $40 with no

> greater than a $15

>

> surcharge for the initial treatment.

>

> c. If a flat rate is charged, it’s $30 or less.

>

> d. No proof of income is required or requested.

>

> e. Herbal consults are charged at the same rates as the community

> acupuncture rates above.

>

> f. The clinic must be open at least three days a week.

>

> http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/sites/allBy-Laws.pdf

>

>

> If you don't follow all of these requirements, you can't be a CAN member.

>

> A. is the kicker... no private acupuncture treatments. I have friends who

> aren't part of CAN because they still want to see private patients and they

> don't want to do CA at least 3 days/ week. Anyway, CAN can make up their

> own rules and people can choose to join or not.

>

>

> K

 

 

 

> >> > On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:06 AM, Chinese Medicine <

> >> jonk2012 <jonk2012%40>

> >> > > wrote:

> >> >

> >> > >

> >> > >

> >> > > Hi all,

> >> > >

> >> > > I don't want to beat a dead horse ... I don't know if it has been

> >> beaten

> >> > > yet, but I want to talk about some specifics about community

> >> acupuncture.

> >> > >

> >> > > This post was started by a practitioner asking about what points were

> >> used

> >> > > for community acupuncture. The majority of responses said that you

> >> could use

> >> > > any points based on your experience level (or understanding).

> >> > >

> >> > > I have a run a community clinic in Portland, Or for the last 4 years.

> >> So I

> >> > > am not some naive practitioner talking about something with which I

> >> have no

> >> > > experience.

> >> > >

> >> > > My clinic runs from 9:30am to 6:30pm Mondays and Thursdays. On my

> >> busiest

> >> > > day, I saw 26 patients. I am the only one practicing. I treat with

> >> herbs and

> >> > > acupuncture. I don't limit myself to a certain point set. I charge a

> >> sliding

> >> > > fee between $20 and $40 dependent on where a patient feels that they

> >> are at.

> >> > > I treat anything from pain to emotional disturbance and chronic

> >> disease.

> >> > >

> >> > > I want to talk about the potential problems this method of treatment

> >> has

> >> > > for our profession. Sure we can treat a lot of people in this manner,

> >> and

> >> > > open up the treatment for a lot of people that couldn't otherwise

> >> afford it,

> >> > > but I ask my peers, is it really for the best?

> >> > >

> >> > > The average practitioner who treats privately treats between 12 and 20

> >> > > patients in a day if they are treating private patients, and charging

> >> full

> >> > > fee, either in cash or by billing insurance. I am coming to believe

> >> that it

> >> > > takes a patient load in the thousands in order to maintain an average

> >> case

> >> > > load of patients. For example if you have a patient that comes once a

> >> week

> >> > > or once a month, and the average practitioner works 10 hours a day (if

> >> > > that), then it would take 200 visits (at one patient an hour) to fill

> >> that

> >> > > practitioners calender for the month (600 patients if they treat 3

> >> patients

> >> > > an hour). This is a substantial amount of patients, but nothing

> >> compared to

> >> > > a group clinic.

> >> > >

> >> > > When I am treating in group (or community style) I can treat between 6

> >> to 8

> >> > > patients in an hour. That means, if I did that 5 days a week, I would

> >> treat

> >> > > up to 72 patients per day and 360 patients per week. This means a

> >> total of

> >> > > 1,440 patients per month (to have a full practice). At my normal idea

> >> of the

> >> > > way things work, I would think that this would mean a case load of 10

> >> * the

> >> > > number I could possibly see. So that I would have an active case load

> >> of

> >> > > 14,400 patients.

> >> > >

> >> > > Portland is a community that is well saturated with all kinds of

> >> health

> >> > > care workers, acupuncture in particular. I can count at least 4 if not

> >> 6

> >> > > community clinics off of the top of my head. Working class has at

> >> least 4

> >> > > affiliated clinics, then mine, and a couple in the SE. Start doing the

> >> > > math... 10 community clinics in a city center ='s a case load of

> >> 144,000

> >> > > patients. In Portland this is 1/10th of the population. That means

> >> that the

> >> > > other 300+ acupuncturists that are here have to compete with clinics

> >> that

> >> > > are offering prices that are about 2/3 lower then the private clinics

> >> around

> >> > > town.

> >> > >

> >> > > Which gets me to my point. In any other field, when someone comes in

> >> with a

> >> > > price that is so below the average cost, what it does is destroys the

> >> market

> >> > > for any legitimate business that is in the field. You may think that

> >> it is

> >> > > ok, because you accept insurance, and the people that do Community

> >> > > acupuncture may think it is ok, because they don't accept insurance,

> >> but in

> >> > > the end what will happen is that the insurance companies will

> >> understand

> >> > > that there is something out there called community acupuncture, and if

> >> they

> >> > > pay for that over a private treatment, they will save 3 to 1 on their

> >> > > dollar.

> >> > >

> >> > > Costs for learning this medicine keep going up, not down. The

> >> community

> >> > > model, while catering to a large audience will inevitably effect each

> >> of our

> >> > > bottom lines. Patients do not understand the difference between a

> >> community

> >> > > session and a private session. They do not understand that community

> >> > > acupuncture is a limited modality, that a practitioner is almost never

> >> using

> >> > > all of their skills to do it.

> >> > >

> >> > > Worse, I have had patient who have come to me and describe the points

> >> that

> >> > > have been used on them, and I read formula acupuncture into how they

> >> have

> >> > > been treated.

> >> > >

> >> > > I think that this is something our profession needs to consider. The

> >> > > community model is continuing to gain strength. Schools such as SIOM

> >> are

> >> > > starting to change their teaching style to mold to this dynamic, but I

> >> ask

> >> > > you is it for the good of our community? Is it for the good of the

> >> > > practitioners? Or will we become nothing more then another service

> >> economy

> >> > > working for $15.00 per hour, because our skills are not valued by the

> >> > > public. I believe that there are several choices here. You either jump

> >> on

> >> > > the bandwagon of community acupuncture now, or you get caught holding

> >> (and

> >> > > paying for) the groceries in the long run. This is less then ideal. In

> >> the

> >> > > long run a community clinic is subsistence living at best. Unless you

> >> run

> >> > > your business as a non-profit, I am truly concerned that this model

> >> will

> >> > > change the expectations of patients as to the effectiveness of

> >> acupuncture.

> >> > >

> >> > > Sincerely,

> >> > >

> >> > > L.Ac.

> >> > > The Database

 

 

_______________

Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.

http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/

 

 

[Guest guest]

Great post. I also share your concerns but more from the side of business and

fulfilling of the acupuncture statutes. Keep in mind, that anyone can see

multiple patients or charge a sliding fee scale, this does not make it a CAN

operation. If people want more options to run things their own way, then be

willing to make changes in your operation. Time is limited and this affects

what you are able to do for your patient. Refining of procedures is the best

way to be time managed. When we have a legal challenge against a CAN clinic,

then we will get a clearer picture as attorneys look at things very differently.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

jonk2012

Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:06:41 +0000

Re: Community Acupuncture

 

 

 

 

 

Hi all,

 

I don't want to beat a dead horse ... I don't know if it has been beaten yet,

but I want to talk about some specifics about community acupuncture.

 

This post was started by a practitioner asking about what points were used for

community acupuncture. The majority of responses said that you could use any

points based on your experience level (or understanding).

 

I have a run a community clinic in Portland, Or for the last 4 years. So I am

not some naive practitioner talking about something with which I have no

experience.

 

My clinic runs from 9:30am to 6:30pm Mondays and Thursdays. On my busiest day, I

saw 26 patients. I am the only one practicing. I treat with herbs and

acupuncture. I don't limit myself to a certain point set. I charge a sliding fee

between $20 and $40 dependent on where a patient feels that they are at. I treat

anything from pain to emotional disturbance and chronic disease.

 

I want to talk about the potential problems this method of treatment has for our

profession. Sure we can treat a lot of people in this manner, and open up the

treatment for a lot of people that couldn't otherwise afford it, but I ask my

peers, is it really for the best?

 

The average practitioner who treats privately treats between 12 and 20 patients

in a day if they are treating private patients, and charging full fee, either in

cash or by billing insurance. I am coming to believe that it takes a patient

load in the thousands in order to maintain an average case load of patients. For

example if you have a patient that comes once a week or once a month, and the

average practitioner works 10 hours a day (if that), then it would take 200

visits (at one patient an hour) to fill that practitioners calender for the

month (600 patients if they treat 3 patients an hour). This is a substantial

amount of patients, but nothing compared to a group clinic.

 

When I am treating in group (or community style) I can treat between 6 to 8

patients in an hour. That means, if I did that 5 days a week, I would treat up

to 72 patients per day and 360 patients per week. This means a total of 1,440

patients per month (to have a full practice). At my normal idea of the way

things work, I would think that this would mean a case load of 10 * the number I

could possibly see. So that I would have an active case load of 14,400 patients.

 

Portland is a community that is well saturated with all kinds of health care

workers, acupuncture in particular. I can count at least 4 if not 6 community

clinics off of the top of my head. Working class has at least 4 affiliated

clinics, then mine, and a couple in the SE. Start doing the math... 10 community

clinics in a city center ='s a case load of 144,000 patients. In Portland this

is 1/10th of the population. That means that the other 300+ acupuncturists that

are here have to compete with clinics that are offering prices that are about

2/3 lower then the private clinics around town.

 

Which gets me to my point. In any other field, when someone comes in with a

price that is so below the average cost, what it does is destroys the market for

any legitimate business that is in the field. You may think that it is ok,

because you accept insurance, and the people that do Community acupuncture may

think it is ok, because they don't accept insurance, but in the end what will

happen is that the insurance companies will understand that there is something

out there called community acupuncture, and if they pay for that over a private

treatment, they will save 3 to 1 on their dollar.

 

Costs for learning this medicine keep going up, not down. The community model,

while catering to a large audience will inevitably effect each of our bottom

lines. Patients do not understand the difference between a community session and

a private session. They do not understand that community acupuncture is a

limited modality, that a practitioner is almost never using all of their skills

to do it.

 

Worse, I have had patient who have come to me and describe the points that have

been used on them, and I read formula acupuncture into how they have been

treated.

 

I think that this is something our profession needs to consider. The community

model is continuing to gain strength. Schools such as SIOM are starting to

change their teaching style to mold to this dynamic, but I ask you is it for the

good of our community? Is it for the good of the practitioners? Or will we

become nothing more then another service economy working for $15.00 per hour,

because our skills are not valued by the public. I believe that there are

several choices here. You either jump on the bandwagon of community acupuncture

now, or you get caught holding (and paying for) the groceries in the long run.

This is less then ideal. In the long run a community clinic is subsistence

living at best. Unless you run your business as a non-profit, I am truly

concerned that this model will change the expectations of patients as to the

effectiveness of acupuncture.

 

Sincerely,

 

L.Ac.

The Database

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.

http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/

 

 

[Guest guest]

I also share your concerns but more from the side of business and fulfilling

of the acupuncture statutes.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

Joe sez:

That is interesting Michael, can a CAN practitioner explain how they

maintain sufficient patient files?

 

 

I have nothing against community-style acupuncture, as long as people know

that they're getting less time for diagnosis and treatment.

I just think the practitioner will get burned out really quick (both

mentally and physically) from treating patients that way.

K

 

Joe sez:

Both of these are good points. Do CAN practitioners have their patients sign

informed consent forms? Does it include informing them that they are getting

less diagnosis and a loss of a right to privacy that they could receive

elsewhere?

 

Lee Tritt

Community acupuncture cheapens us and hurts all of us. I see ads on websites

stating that acupuncture treatments are too expensive.

 

Joe sez:

Not sure that I can agree with the first statement. Disparaging remarks

about competitors is unprofessional and does a disservice to all involved.

This can be perpetrated by either side, so we should not disparage CA

practitioners either. Just say what you offer, what your special training is

and how it could benefit the patient.

 

Also, I wonder how many are practicing under this business model and how

long each of those practitioners have been licensed.

 

This is an emotionally charged issue on both sides. Hopefully it will stay

respectful

 

Joe

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello Kokko

 

That is a misinterpretation. Anyone can be a member of CAN. You pay your dues

and you are a member. What you are reading is a definition of what CAN

considers a Community Acupuncture Clinic. CAN members are welcome to run their

clinical practices however they wish, and use any business model they choose.

One can see two patients a week in padlocked vaults and charge $600 a treatment

and still be a member of CAN. Yes, I'm being facetious -- yet factual.

 

What you quote is a definition of a Community Clinic. Where it is put into

affect is on the Locate a Clinic (LOC) page on the website

(http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/clinics). This page serves as a

referral listing of Community Acupuncture clinics for patients. It has strict

guidelines in order to make sure that when patients go to another LOC listed

clinic (or refer friends and family) that they will not be surprised by business

practices that vary from what they are used to. CAN does maintain a second list

of clinics (http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/clinics/other) that lists

clinics of all business varieties.

 

Yes, some clinics have been denied inclusion to the LOC list, yet this does not

mean that they are denied membership to CAN.

 

I hope this clears up any confusion.

 

David Lesseps

board member of CAN, and LOC Administrator

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Circle Community Acupuncture

1351 Harrison St

San Francisco, CA 94103

(415) 864-1070

www.circleca.com

 

 

Chinese Medicine , <johnkokko

wrote:

>

> Here are the membership requirements from the CAN bylaws:

>

> 2. Community Acupuncture shall be defined as including clinics that meet the

> following criteria:

>

> a. Group treatment spaces (no private acupuncture treatments)

>

> b. If a sliding scale is used, it is somewhere between $15 and $40 with no

> greater than a $15

>

> surcharge for the initial treatment.

>

> c. If a flat rate is charged, it's $30 or less.

>

> d. No proof of income is required or requested.

>

> e. Herbal consults are charged at the same rates as the community

> acupuncture rates above.

>

> f. The clinic must be open at least three days a week.

>

> http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/sites/allBy-Laws.pdf

>

>

> If you don't follow all of these requirements, you can't be a CAN member.

>

> A. is the kicker... no private acupuncture treatments. I have friends who

> aren't part of CAN because they still want to see private patients and they

> don't want to do CA at least 3 days/ week. Anyway, CAN can make up their

> own rules and people can choose to join or not.

>

>

> K

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

hi Jon,

 

i met you before at AIMS when you visited Tucson in '06 or '07 so I know you're

a nice guy, and so am I, so anything that I say after this, don't take it

personally. it's just a post on a forum, and it's hard to have these kinds of

discussions on forums, the nuances of in-person conversation get lost.

 

 

so here are my thoughts:

 

sounds like in general you personally have some issues to iron out with regards

to CA, but have couched it in terms of " we as a profession should think about

this or consider this " (paraphrasing)

 

so, if you don't like CA and it is not as profitable for you as you like, why do

you still offer it two days a week? People can make a choice on how they

practice and who they serve. the prices you charge ultimately have a large

determination on who walks thru your door.

 

 

In your post on Tribe.net, you speak of " power to the people " , with regards to

information, and the CMtimes DB you set up. cool.

(

http://tribes.tribe.net/acupuncturestudents/thread/60b41325-24cc-4685-a617-912ab\

3cca9d5 )

 

and here in your post, as community acupuncture strives to makes acupuncture

services affordable to more and more people, you question whether or not it is

for the best interests? whose interests? yours? the people we serve?

 

destroy the market? please. are you talking about market protection - possibly

implying that everyone needs to keep their prices at higher levels because the

cost of the medicine is going up?

 

first what cost? needles are pennies on the dollar. So invariably you may be

saying that the cost of your time is increasing? OK, that's up to you to

decide. Other costs increasing as far as schools go, well that's up to them

because they will keep adding hours and adding hours until it takes six years to

get thru TCM school, let alone three.

 

 

and what market? the market that serves the upper 20% of the U.S. population

with rates on average of $75 / visit and up. right now acupuncture has a 1%

market penetration in the U.S. (NIH 2007). compared to chiros or PT, that is

very small.

 

One of the reasons CA is so successful is not because it is destroying the

existing marketplace or stealing private room clients, but because it has a

price point that serves and opens up acu to another 60% of the population.

 

 

It's like the FPD. Cui Bono? The schools mainly. But in the end The FPD will

stunt the growth of the profession and hand acupuncture over to other

professions. I'd bet money on it. and others will disagree with me, and that

FPD horse has definitely been put down since 2004, yet it lives to ride again

another day.

 

one of the the main arguments from practitioners for the FPD still remains the

issue of being called doctors, and the status and entitlement and priveleges

that theoretically goes along with the title. your post here has several read

between the lines examples of entitlement thinking.

 

On your website, altheaacupuncture, you have multiple services available at

varying costs. $200 for meridian balancing, $75 for private treatments, pets

(you can treat pets in oregon? cool) for $45, children for $45, detox (ears

only?) for $35 (with a 10 treatment plan), and $20-40 sliding scale for group

treatments 2 days a week.

 

How have you found it to have varying rates? Does it empower the people who

utilize your clinic? or create confusion?

 

From online reviews, people love your services and it looks like from your post

that you are very busy. Congrats, that's awesome! It sounds like you have a

sound marketing startegy - spend two days a week serving 60% of the population

and the other days serving 20% of the population. So you've got the bases

covered. What's the problem?

 

At the heart of CA is an effort to create a culture of understanding and

acupuncture usage in our country from the grassroots, akin to a viral marketing

campaign.

 

You're serving up the same old tired arguments propagated in the TCM schools

from day one about worth of time, cost, etc.

 

Your only argument here so far against community acupuncture are anecdotes from

some patients and a mistaken notion that when someone walks in to a CA clinic,

they will be treated with a point prescription from a cookbook. Well, what are

all the textbooks good for if we have to make the shit up every time? Are we

not supposed to use Deadman? Tan? Tung? Lee? Kikko? etc., and all the other

textbooks that recycle the same information and try to sell it to students and

practitioners?

 

If I find that needling UB40 really does work well in my community style

practice for low back pain most of the time, why shouldn't I use it? Why is

needling UB40 in a CA practice or in a private practice any different? who

cares if it is formulaic if it works.

 

As far as active caseload goes, I think your numbers are not correct, and goes

back to the statement I made about only 1% of the population being served in the

U.S. (which leads to a whole different thread about a national acupuncture

public awareness program, in lieu of which CA clinics are spreading the word to

the masses )

 

M.D.s are plenty busy, and there are 900,000 physicians total in the U.S., about

200,000 GP or family docs, compared to about 28,000 LAcs.

 

still plenty of room for everyone for more LACs. even when there are still 2000

more LAcs added every year by the schools. but then it goes back to your fears

expressed over rates charged. it's unfounded. it's not about price cutting.

 

as far as insurance goes, that boat's going down hard, even if it goes down

slow. it will all come to a nasty head when the insurance mandate passes. there

is no money to be made in acupuncture for the insurance corps, except thru

malpractice fees, and even then it's small potatoes.

 

 

I'm sure there be some varying thoughts here, so be it. Here's to lively

conversation!

 

warm regards , Keith

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Chinese Medicine "

<jonk2012 wrote:

>

> Hi all,

>

> I don't want to beat a dead horse ... I don't know if it has been beaten yet,

but I want to talk about some specifics about community acupuncture.

>

> This post was started by a practitioner asking about what points were used for

community acupuncture. The majority of responses said that you could use any

points based on your experience level (or understanding).

>

> I have a run a community clinic in Portland, Or for the last 4 years. So I am

not some naive practitioner talking about something with which I have no

experience.

>

> My clinic runs from 9:30am to 6:30pm Mondays and Thursdays. On my busiest

day, I saw 26 patients. I am the only one practicing. I treat with herbs and

acupuncture. I don't limit myself to a certain point set. I charge a sliding

fee between $20 and $40 dependent on where a patient feels that they are at. I

treat anything from pain to emotional disturbance and chronic disease.

>

> I want to talk about the potential problems this method of treatment has for

our profession. Sure we can treat a lot of people in this manner, and open up

the treatment for a lot of people that couldn't otherwise afford it, but I ask

my peers, is it really for the best?

>

> The average practitioner who treats privately treats between 12 and 20

patients in a day if they are treating private patients, and charging full fee,

either in cash or by billing insurance. I am coming to believe that it takes a

patient load in the thousands in order to maintain an average case load of

patients. For example if you have a patient that comes once a week or once a

month, and the average practitioner works 10 hours a day (if that), then it

would take 200 visits (at one patient an hour) to fill that practitioners

calender for the month (600 patients if they treat 3 patients an hour). This is

a substantial amount of patients, but nothing compared to a group clinic.

>

> When I am treating in group (or community style) I can treat between 6 to 8

patients in an hour. That means, if I did that 5 days a week, I would treat up

to 72 patients per day and 360 patients per week. This means a total of 1,440

patients per month (to have a full practice). At my normal idea of the way

things work, I would think that this would mean a case load of 10 * the number I

could possibly see. So that I would have an active case load of 14,400

patients.

>

> Portland is a community that is well saturated with all kinds of health care

workers, acupuncture in particular. I can count at least 4 if not 6 community

clinics off of the top of my head. Working class has at least 4 affiliated

clinics, then mine, and a couple in the SE. Start doing the math... 10

community clinics in a city center ='s a case load of 144,000 patients. In

Portland this is 1/10th of the population. That means that the other 300+

acupuncturists that are here have to compete with clinics that are offering

prices that are about 2/3 lower then the private clinics around town.

>

> Which gets me to my point. In any other field, when someone comes in with a

price that is so below the average cost, what it does is destroys the market for

any legitimate business that is in the field. You may think that it is ok,

because you accept insurance, and the people that do Community acupuncture may

think it is ok, because they don't accept insurance, but in the end what will

happen is that the insurance companies will understand that there is something

out there called community acupuncture, and if they pay for that over a private

treatment, they will save 3 to 1 on their dollar.

>

> Costs for learning this medicine keep going up, not down. The community

model, while catering to a large audience will inevitably effect each of our

bottom lines. Patients do not understand the difference between a community

session and a private session. They do not understand that community

acupuncture is a limited modality, that a practitioner is almost never using all

of their skills to do it.

>

> Worse, I have had patient who have come to me and describe the points that

have been used on them, and I read formula acupuncture into how they have been

treated.

>

> I think that this is something our profession needs to consider. The

community model is continuing to gain strength. Schools such as SIOM are

starting to change their teaching style to mold to this dynamic, but I ask you

is it for the good of our community? Is it for the good of the practitioners?

Or will we become nothing more then another service economy working for $15.00

per hour, because our skills are not valued by the public. I believe that there

are several choices here. You either jump on the bandwagon of community

acupuncture now, or you get caught holding (and paying for) the groceries in the

long run. This is less then ideal. In the long run a community clinic is

subsistence living at best. Unless you run your business as a non-profit, I am

truly concerned that this model will change the expectations of patients as to

the effectiveness of acupuncture.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> L.Ac.

> The Database

>

[Guest guest]

Were the treatments effective?

 

 

 

 

-

" " <johnkokko

<Chinese Medicine >

Wednesday, March 03, 2010 12:11 AM

Re: Re: Community Acupuncture

 

 

> 15 years ago, I went to a well known acupuncturist in Denver who treated

> me

> and my mom in about 5 minutes each. He had a doctorate degree from China

> and was licensed in the US. He took the pulse in about 1 minute, asked 2

> questions and put needles in as fast as I've ever seen. That was it,

> didn't

> see him after those 5 minutes. His assistant took out the needles. His

> wife took the money and gave the herbs in home-made pills. That was it.

> Less time than a community acupuncture clinic, but cost $80 for the

> needles

> and another $40 for the pills for the week. Still, he had this huge

> reputation and no one would even think that he was dangerous to the

> profession.

> Maybe it's more about the individual practitioner's skills and

> attentiveness, even if it's focused for 5 minutes?

>

> K

>

>

>

> On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 7:51 PM, Rebekah Sitty L.Ac.

> <rsittywrote:

>

>>

>>

>> Hi There-

>> I just caught up on the recent flurry of opinions and concerns about

>> Community Acupuncture and, being an owner/practitioner at a CA style

>> clinic,

>> I wanted to throw my two cents into the discussion.

>>

>> First some details about how we run our practice: Our clinic is open 6

>> days/week, we have 5 acupuncturists who work there (two of us are the

>> owners). We see 4 existing patients each hour, or two new patients each

>> hour. All of our intakes are done in a private room with a table in case

>> we

>> need to perform an exam. Shifts are approximately 4.5 hours long and

>> contain

>> approx 15 patients. That seems to be the most number of patients we can

>> see

>> in a day without feeling burnt out. We charge $20-$40 for existing pts,

>> $40-$60 for new patients. We also offer private treatments out of the

>> same

>> office at $80 each.

>>

>> All patients fill out health history forms, informed consent forms and we

>> keep SOAP notes on them all in individual files in a locked cabinet, just

>> like any other acupuncturist.

>>

>> We are clear with our CA patients about what we can realistically treat

>> given the CA model and its limitations. If we feel the patient would best

>> be

>> served with private acupuncture treatments (we cant do moxa, cupping, gua

>> sha, e-stim in the community room) , need a more in-depth intake or

>> herbal

>> consult, or a DC, PT, ND, MD, what have you, we refer them out.

>>

>> We have many patients who come in monthly for private treatments and then

>> weekly for Community treatments.

>>

>> So why am I telling you all this? I guess to say: that it is working for

>> us. My partner and I love being able to treat first timers (about 40% of

>> our

>> new patients have never had acupuncture), or people who cant afford the

>> more

>> expensive treatments and watch them get better. Because of our rates,

>> many

>> people can afford to come weekly or bi-weekly and that frequency of

>> treatment can make a big difference in their healing,

>>

>> To Lee I would say: just as you may have had patients tell you they

>> haven't

>> gotten better by going to a CA clinic (or a MD or DC) , we hear similar

>> stories! I think every acupuncturist does. In our case, often the pt has

>> been getting private treatments but only going once a month because they

>> can't afford to go more often. And in our private treatments, we see

>> patients who didn't get better with one practitioner, but do well with

>> another. Just as we woudn't infer that this meant all private treatments

>> are

>> ineffective, I don't think it is fair to assume that CA treatments don't

>> work, either.

>>

>> As far as CA being a disservice to the practitioner because it is more

>> work

>> for the same amount of money- well, that is up to the practitioner. If I

>> gross an average of $95 seeing 4 pts in an hour, am I doing myself more

>> or

>> less of a disservice than the practitioner who charges $60 per visit and

>> sees one person per hour? Because practitioners with those rates exist,

>> too.

>> I am okay with that.

>>

>> I know of practitioners who don't call themselves community acupuncture

>> practitioners, yet they see similar numbers of people, often in rooms

>> with

>> curtains separating the tables from each other. I dont think this is much

>> different from what we do, except for the name or 'classification' of

>> type

>> of clinic. Do people who object to the CA model also object to

>> practitioners

>> who see 4 or more pts/hour? Because 'private' practitioners have been

>> doing

>> that for a long, long time. Perhaps the distinction in a case like this

>> is

>> in name only? I really think the CA model is not a new style of

>> practicing.

>> It may have a new name, but it is still acupuncture to me.

>>

>> Sorry for the long post. Looking forward to your comments!

>> -Rebekah

>>

>> ------------

>> Rebekah Sitty, MS, L.Ac.

>> San Francisco Community Acupuncture

>> 220 Valencia St.

>> San Francisco, CA 94103

>> 415.675.8973 rsitty <rsitty%40earthlink.net>

>> -------------

>>

>> The information contained in this electronic message may contain

>> protected

>> health information confidential under applicable law, and is intended

>> only

>> for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the recipient of

>> this copy is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any

>> dissemination, copy or disclosure of this communication is strictly

>> prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please

>> notify

>> the sender and purge the communication immediately without making any

>> copy

>> or distribution.

>>

>>

>>

>

>

>

> --

>

>

> ""

>

>

> www.tcmreview.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

David,

thanks for the clarification. So, anyone can use the community acupuncture

model and call it a " community acupuncture clinic " .. right? even without

being part of CAN...

The CAN network helps people locate a community acupuncture clinic in their

neighborhood and serves the practitioners on the forum and other political

action... right?

no worries.

 

K

 

 

 

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 12:26 PM, davel30 <davel30 wrote:

 

>

>

> Hello Kokko

>

> That is a misinterpretation. Anyone can be a member of CAN. You pay your

> dues and you are a member. What you are reading is a definition of what CAN

> considers a Community Acupuncture Clinic. CAN members are welcome to run

> their clinical practices however they wish, and use any business model they

> choose. One can see two patients a week in padlocked vaults and charge $600

> a treatment and still be a member of CAN. Yes, I'm being facetious -- yet

> factual.

>

> What you quote is a definition of a Community Clinic. Where it is put into

> affect is on the Locate a Clinic (LOC) page on the website (

> http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/clinics). This page serves as a

> referral listing of Community Acupuncture clinics for patients. It has

> strict guidelines in order to make sure that when patients go to another LOC

> listed clinic (or refer friends and family) that they will not be surprised

> by business practices that vary from what they are used to. CAN does

> maintain a second list of clinics (

> http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/clinics/other) that lists

> clinics of all business varieties.

>

> Yes, some clinics have been denied inclusion to the LOC list, yet this does

> not mean that they are denied membership to CAN.

>

> I hope this clears up any confusion.

>

> David Lesseps

> board member of CAN, and LOC Administrator

>

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Circle Community Acupuncture

> 1351 Harrison St

> San Francisco, CA 94103

> (415) 864-1070

> www.circleca.com

>

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> <johnkokko wrote:

> >

> > Here are the membership requirements from the CAN bylaws:

> >

> > 2. Community Acupuncture shall be defined as including clinics that meet

> the

> > following criteria:

> >

> > a. Group treatment spaces (no private acupuncture treatments)

> >

> > b. If a sliding scale is used, it is somewhere between $15 and $40 with

> no

> > greater than a $15

> >

> > surcharge for the initial treatment.

> >

> > c. If a flat rate is charged, it's $30 or less.

> >

> > d. No proof of income is required or requested.

> >

> > e. Herbal consults are charged at the same rates as the community

> > acupuncture rates above.

> >

> > f. The clinic must be open at least three days a week.

> >

> > http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/sites/allBy-Laws.pdf

> >

> >

> > If you don't follow all of these requirements, you can't be a CAN member.

> >

> > A. is the kicker... no private acupuncture treatments. I have friends who

> > aren't part of CAN because they still want to see private patients and

> they

> > don't want to do CA at least 3 days/ week. Anyway, CAN can make up their

> > own rules and people can choose to join or not.

> >

> >

> > K

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

""

 

 

www.tcmreview.com