Community Acupuncture

[Guest guest]

Understood but not all problems respond to a hammer.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Thu, 4 Mar 2010 11:57:42 -0500

Re: Re: Community Acupuncture

 

 

 

 

 

Michael

 

The point being that none of these modalities are absolutely necessary for

the majority of cases if the practitioner is a capable needle

practitioner.

That was the point.

One can use all these other modalities...such as me......primarily using Ba

Gua Fa and Chinese herbs but then I have no interest in seeing hundreds of

people per day. That's where I conserve my energy.

 

Richard

 

 

 

In a message dated 3/4/2010 11:43:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

Richard,

 

Moxa, cupping, estim, herbs, tui na, nutrition, etc. In Chinese clinics

they do use these routinely, no?

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

[Guest guest]

Anyone able to find Maeda needles in the US? Would love to try these out.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

zrosenbe

Thu, 4 Mar 2010 08:44:21 -0800

Re: Re: Community Acupuncture

 

 

 

 

 

Unicos are the best I've found, but they are temporarily unavailable. .

 

 

On Mar 4, 2010, at 8:11 AM, mike Bowser wrote:

 

>

> Other then AcuGlide needles, are there any other silicon-free acupuncture

needles out there?

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

>

Chinese Medicine

> zaranski

> Thu, 4 Mar 2010 04:45:49 +0000

> Re: Community Acupuncture

>

>

>

>

>

> hey Anne,

>

> What do you like about serins? They spend the most on advertizing, certainly

that gets passed along to buyers. Do you ever see Px's with sensitivity to the

silicone coating on their needles?

>

> Do you tube needle or free needle? Do you recycle the tubes?

>

> We inserted over 120,000 needles in 2009; with DBC spring tens thats still

>12k insertion tubes that we recycled! The only thing that tube does for us is

provide rigidity for the package. We pull that tubeand pocket it when we open

the pack. DBCs are uncoated stainless, easily as smooth as the serins due to

polishing. Nice and stiff for their gauge so your qi is easily tranfered into

penetration rather than bending needles and hurting Pxs. SOOO much less

packaging per 1000 needles.

>

> Mark Z

>

> Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley wrote:

>>

>> Wow, I could go on vacation with the difference. I am pretty hooked on

serins.

>> Anne

>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

>>

>>

>> <johnkokko

>> Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:30:34

>> <Chinese Medicine >

>> Re: Re: Community Acupuncture

>>

>> Here's a correction on my needle $ comparison:

>>

>> Seirins = $10 / pack of 100 = 10 cents / each

>> DBC = $22.50 for pack of 1000 = 2.25 cents/ each

>>

>> 40 treatments / week = Seirins $40/ week $160/ month about $1760/

>> year (4 weeks off for vacation)

>> = DBC $9/ week $36 / month

>> about $396 / year (4 weeks off for vacation)

>>

>> The difference is $1760 - 396 = *$1364 / year* if you see 40 patients/

>> week.

>>

>> So cost of needles do make a difference.

>>

>> K

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:08 AM, <johnkokko wrote:

>>

>>> Our market value depends on a few things...

>>> 1. how much it cost (money, time and energy) to learn what we learned (in

>>> school, outside of school, in clinical practice etc)

>>> 2. how much it costs to maintain a practice in the location we have our

>>> clinic situated (high end rent/ parking versus)

>>> 3. how saturated the area we practice is with competitive forces

>>> 4. the specific modality we practice (facial acupuncture vs pain management

>>> vs fertility etc)

>>> 5. the model we practice (community style vs 1 patient/ hour vs 2/ hour

>>> etc.)

>>>

>>> A 10 cents/ needle Seirin vs 2.25 cents / needle DBC is not so important

>>> from a money point of view (about 80 cents/ treatment difference), but I

>>> guess that could add up.... 40 treatments/ week = $32 or $300/ year.

>>> The worst part of the Seirins is all of the wasted paper and plastic (one

>>> needle/ guide tube/ package).

>>>

>>> This is just a generalization, but I've found that women like to pay more

>>> for treatments than men.

>>> Students of all types usually can't afford more than $50/ treatment (once/

>>> week)

>>> Middle aged patients generally will pay more than elderly patients (who

>>> have a high insurance cost / month as well)

>>> and finally... lawyers don't like to pay very much for their treatments,

>>> even though they need the care more than most.

>>>

>>>

>>> K

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:02 AM, Sean Doherty <seanwrote:

>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> On Mar 2, 2010, at 3:28 PM, wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> first what cost? needles are pennies on the dollar.

>>>>

>>>> I have seen this argument a number of times and am always surprised by it.

>>>> Are we charging like plumbers and carpenters? Our fee being equal to the

>>>> cost of materials (if you are lucky)? Obviously, needles are only a very

>>>> small fraction of the cost of running a practice. Paper is cheap, too, and

>>>> that is all lawyers push around.

>>>>

>>>> Sean

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

[Guest guest]

Richard,

 

 

 

It will happen and then we can all talk about the ways things used to be.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Thu, 4 Mar 2010 11:52:29 -0500

Re: Re: Community Acupuncture

 

 

 

 

 

Michael

 

600 or so Asians is definitely not consensus especially when there are at

least 20,000 licensees in the US.

And a majority of those Asians you speak about were MDs in China and

yes....they want to get back to their doctor status. I don't blame them.....I

would also if I were them.

 

Florida laws and rules did not come from being liberal.

They were hard fought for by activists who did not sit around the

round-table chewing the fat.

 

Bottom line.....you can wish all you want but the profession is a LONG way

off from CONSENSUS.

 

Richard

 

<<Let us not forget that moving towards the mainstream is what got us many

of ops we have today. That would also include your liberal Florida laws

for the profession. Let us remind ourselves that the FPD is not likely to

change any of our practices, it is looking towards the future of this

medicine. Let us not forget the many Asians that are not usually part of our

discussions, are overwhelmingly in support of it. The non-Asian practitioners

are pretty much split but when adding in the Asian community it is a

majority in favor of doing this and the trend line continues. Interesting that

students seem to favor it largely as well.>>

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

[Guest guest]

J,

 

 

 

They seem to be able to separate these in China. Maybe we should pay more

attention.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

johnkokko

Thu, 4 Mar 2010 08:23:09 -0800

Re: Re: Community Acupuncture

 

 

 

 

 

Politics and Economics seem to go hand-in-hand.

 

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 8:09 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

>

> Rebekah,

>

>

>

> So why not just use the model and leave along the politics?

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> rsitty

> Wed, 3 Mar 2010 21:19:20 -0800

> Re: Community Acupuncture

>

>

>

>

>

> Hey Joe! (and Mike)

>

> Of course decades of experience will make anyone a better practitioner. If

> you are saying that you feel I am not experienced enough to see 4 patients

> each hour for part of my practice, well, that is an opinion you are

> certainly entitled to. I dare to say that my patients feel otherwise. Would

> a practitioner with decades of experience be more effective than I? I would

> hope so! But they would be more effective in whatever style they chose to

> practice in.

>

> I actually think seeing patients in this style provided a HUGE learning

> curve for me, accelerated my learning process far faster than if I had stuck

> to only seeing one person each hour. Just the sheer quantity of patients and

> pulses and tongues I see, and the fact that most patients come weekly lets

> me quickly gauge the effectiveness of my treatments. And I really enjoy

> having other practitioners in the clinic to consult with (we often see the

> same patients). So, yes, in the beginning I was fumbling, as we all do in

> the beginning, but the amount of experience I gained in a short time was

> invaluable.

>

> And Mike, I understand your concern in regards to CAN's politics. I know

> they really can put alot of people off - people who otherwise might support

> the CA model. That makes me sad, because I think their intentions are good.

> But it is important to recognize the distinction between CAN and Community

> Acupuncture clinics. Not all of us who run these clinics are CAN members and

> some of us don't always agree with CAN's politics or positions on the FPD,

> for example. I guess the best way to say this is that CAN does not speak for

> every acupuncturist who practices CA style acupuncture.

>

> -Rebekah

> ------------

> Rebekah Sitty, MS, L.Ac.

> San Francisco Community Acupuncture

> 220 Valencia St.

> San Francisco, CA 94103

> 415.675.8973 rsitty

> -------------

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[Guest guest]

Richard,

 

 

 

I understand and share some of your skepticism.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Thu, 4 Mar 2010 12:58:11 -0500

Re: Re: Community Acupuncture

 

 

 

 

 

Michael

 

Of course....eventually ALL things must change.

Not something I wish to see in the way it will happen and the results

thereof.

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 3/4/2010 12:43:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

Richard,

 

It will happen and then we can all talk about the ways things used to be.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike-

 

" So why not just use the model and leave along the politics? "

 

I agree w/ you. Thats what we do in our clinic.

 

-Rebekah

 

------------

Rebekah Sitty, MS, L.Ac.

San Francisco Community Acupuncture

220 Valencia St.

San Francisco, CA 94103

415.675.8973 rsitty

-------------

 

The information contained in this electronic message may contain protected

health information confidential under applicable law, and is intended only for

the use of the individual or entity named above. If the recipient of this copy

is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,

copy or disclosure of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have

received this communication in error, please notify the sender and purge the

communication immediately without making any copy or distribution.