ABORM Questions

September 11, 2007

Kath,

I've just noticed you practice out of Ashville in North Carolina. And you

mentioned Randine Lewis, I know she also practices out of Ashville ,North

Carolina, I'm sure you are aware of her extremely successful practice and

the work she does in Ashville.

To be honest when I see yo make a statement like this,

'i do note that at least one board member, randine lewis has been quite

successful at

turning a profit with books, seminars and workshops for fertility patients,

in other

words, capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive

here. just noting facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome for

me.'

Now this looks like SOUR MILK to me...

Is it just a coincidence that you initiated this move against ABORM and Dr

Lewis .

Respectfully,

Gordon.

On 9/11/07, flyingstarsfengshui < flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> Well David:

>

> I thnk it is more consitutional, so just treating Liver Qi wont do

> it, need to get to the yuan level my friend.

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " David

>

> Karchmer " <acuprof wrote:

> >

> > Kath,

> >

> > I'll take your medical advice. Thanks.

> >

> > Since you " presume " that my condition " smacks " of Liver Qi

> > stagnation, it MUST be a fact. Right?

> >

> > David

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " Kath

> Bartlett,

> > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > >

> > > david:

> > >

> > > i don't think we are allowed to say the D-word on the TCM site.

> > >

> > > hope you find the xiao yao wan soon. meanwhile, massage liv3

> > >

> > > k

> > >

> > > On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Well Kath,

> > > >

> > > > You're right. It irritates me. Because you are certainly not

> the

> > > > first to make negative assumptions about the financial motives

> of

> > > > the people involved with ABORM or Reproductive OM at large.

> > > >

> > > > But, you are the first that I have seen who described those

> > > > assumptions as facts. And had you bothered to do so, you would

> > have

> > > > been the first one to do any fact-checking before publishing

> your

> > > > assumptions all over the internet.

> > > >

> > > > Now pass the GOD DAMNED Xiao Yao San!!!!

> > > > --- In

> >

>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

> > cine%40>,

> > > > " Kath Bartlett,

> > > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > david:

> > > > >

> > > > > just a suggestion: when you read an email that arouses your

> > liver

> > > > qi,

> > > > > resist the temptation to hit reply and send immediately.

> > rather,

> > > > wait an

> > > > > hour or even a day or two, breath, and chill out. and then

> > decide

> > > > if the

> > > > > email requires a response. if so, you can then respond with

> > less

> > > > emotion.

> > > > > (i try to follow this advice myself, although i admit,

> > sometime i

> > > > do hit

> > > > > reply and send without pausing).

> > > > >

> > > > > hope this helps,

> > > > >

> > > > > kb

> > > > >

> > > > > On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Kath,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Let me get this straight. You are citing as " Facts "

> something

> > > > > > that " 'smacks' of a profitable money making venture for the

> > > > board, "

> > > > > > and money that is " 'presumably' going to pay the board

> > > > members??? "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > These are your facts? What you presume, and that

> > which " smacks? "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'll tell you what seems troublesome to me, the FACT that

> > you are

> > > > > > CLEARLY making assumptions, but then go on to state that

> > you " do

> > > > not

> > > > > > mean to insinuate motive here. " And the fact that you then

> > go on

> > > > to

> > > > > > claim that you are " just noting facts " when you are doing

> > > > nothing of

> > > > > > the kind.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As a non-profit the financial workings of the ABORM are

> > designed

> > > > to

> > > > > > be completely transparent.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'll tell you the same thing I told David Twicken, if you

> > want

> > > > real

> > > > > > facts then do your homework. Write a letter to the board

> and

> > ask

> > > > > > them for their financial protocols. Pick up the phone and

> > call

> > > > Ray

> > > > > > Rubio and tell him you are concerned and ask what kind f

> > salary

> > > > he

> > > > > > intends to draw.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But for goodness' sakes, stop posting your fear based

> > > > assumptions as

> > > > > > data, and for REALLY GOODNESS' SAKES stop representing

> those

> > > > > > assumptions as facts!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > --- In

> > > >

> >

>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

> > cine%40>

> > > > <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

> > > > cine%40>,

> > > > > > " Kath Bartlett,

> > > > > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Julie,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > one of the posts from last week pointed out that not-for-

> > profit

> > > > > > just means

> > > > > > > they run at break-even. but this doesn't preclude paying

> > the

> > > > > > board members,

> > > > > > > so presumably the money is going to pay the board

> members,

> > > > costs of

> > > > > > > administering the exam & printing those $1,000

> > certificates,

> > > > and

> > > > > > any

> > > > > > > advertising costs.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > i agree it smacks of a profitable money making venture

> for

> > the

> > > > > > board.

> > > > > > > although i do not have reason to believe that the board

> > > > members do

> > > > > > not have

> > > > > > > altruistic motives of advancing ORM, i do note that at

> > least

> > > > one

> > > > > > board

> > > > > > > member, randine lewis has been quite successful at

> turning

> > a

> > > > > > profit with

> > > > > > > books, seminars and workshops for fertility patients, in

> > other

> > > > > > words,

> > > > > > > capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive

> > here.

> > > > > > just noting

> > > > > > > facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome for

> me.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > kb

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > On 9/8/07, Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. <cariadanam@> wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this

> test

> > is

> > > > not

> > > > > > cheap in

> > > > > > > > the slightest, where is this money going or into whose

> > > > pockets?

> > > > > > I am

> > > > > > > > concerned this could just be a way to make money for

> the

> > > > board.

> > > > > > > > Julie

> > > > > > > >

September 11, 2007

Hi Heidii, sorry to rain on your parade, but I can state for a fact that " TTC "

stands for " Toronto Transit Commission " . See their website if you doubt me:

http://www.ttc.ca

Hugo

heidiirwin <heidiirwin

Hey...I thought we agreed to go Western and spell out our acronyms

from now on! (ART = Assisted Reproductive Technology, TTC = Trying to

Conceive, right?)

> >

>

September 11, 2007

Interesting perspective, RL. I don't know if you have been following

this thread from its earliest inception, but I never posted ANYTHING

on the subject of ABORM, Board Certification, or Specialization

until the now infamous " Open Letter " started circulating.

Do you remember the " open letter? "

It was posted August 8, 2007 by Marnae Ergil

Everything that I have posted has been in response to the contents

of that letter and the series of threads in response to it.

So, while I am not sure that a rule book on internet etiquette

exists that would put such an onus on any one poster as you suggest,

if such a rule does exist I still believe that the responsibility

rests with ABORMâ€™s opponents.

Below is the â€œOpen Letterâ€ that started it all.

*********************************************************************

**

Hello All,

Below I have posted an open letter to the community

regarding a new " board " exam for reproductive

medicine. This is clearly an important political

issue and one that all of us need to start thinking

about - both here in the US and internationally. I am

not posting this letter in order to start a hot

political debate online. I am happy to answer

questions about this letter, but do not want to get

into a big discussion. I encourage you to read the

letter and think about where you stand on this issue.

Thank you,

Marnae

AN OPEN LETTER TO OPPOSE ABORM

In response to the recent ad in Acupuncture Today for

an exam in Oriental Reproductive Medicine,

administered by the newly formed, self-appointed,

American Board of Oriental Reproductive Medicine (see

ABORM.org), we, the undersigned, as practitioners of

Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine, educators, members

of local and national acupuncture societies and

accredited certifying boards, would like to

respectfully oppose the attempts to form such

specialty boards and exams within our field. We oppose

this because:

1. There is no demonstrated need for this

certification

We are board certified by the NCCAOM and individual

states to treat the whole person, not a disease or

condition. Specialty certification imposes false

boundaries and there is neither need nor precedent for

this other than financial gain to the parties

attempting to impose it. The integrity of our medicine

will be compromised.

2. There is no oversight or accountability for such a

board

With its prominent use of the words " board " and

" certification " , ABORM invites confusion not only with

NCCAOM certification, but also with the ABMS (American

Board of Medical Specialties) Board Certification for

Medical Doctors. NCCAOM and ABMS are large,

independent certifying boards that comply with

nationwide standards for fairness and transparency.

ABMS defines specialty certification as ?of

significance for physicians preparing for careers in

teaching, research, or practice restricted to that

field? (italics added). ABORM, on the other hand,

states that their goal is to ?set the standard of care

in this field. (italics added). [They] have recognized

the need for a certification to ensure that

practitioners who are treating patients with Oriental

Medicine in the field of Reproductive Health are doing

so with a qualified knowledge and experience.? We

believe that the ABORM board is confused about the

role of specialty boards in medicine and is leading

our medicine down the wrong path.

3. There is no process supporting the content to be

provided

How is the content material determined? Has the board

gone through the process of making sure that their

content is unbiased and represents all of the numerous

traditions that exist? Does it give ?full recognition

to the diversity of acupuncture in the US, while also

providing a unified set of national standards for safe

and competent practice?? (NCCAOM website). The

creation of ABORM, and the exam offered by ABORM,

implies the intention of monopolizing a centralized

protocol for the treatment of patients with fertility

issues, and opens up the potential that this will

happen to all specialties that are treated by

acupuncture and Oriental medicine.

4. Malpractice coverage may become prohibitive and

exclusionary

In 2005, our profession was successful in removing the

exclusion in malpractice coverage for gynecological

conditions. Now, we are hoping the community of

practitioners will also recognize the inherent risks

of specialty boards and exams which will impose even

more stringent restrictions on practice if insurers

take such a certification into account when setting

fees. We are convinced that the virtual monopoly on

malpractice coverage will only continue to limit our

profession if this is allowed to happen.

5. There is all likelihood that this will damage

rather than benefit our profession.

While we enthusiastically advocate for continuing

education classes, we find that the structure as

presented may also be misleading to the public. It

suggests that simply passing an exam structured by

self-interested parties somehow qualifies one to treat

fertility patients with more authority than other

practitioners. Education in western evaluative

measures can be informative, but will not necessarily

make us better acupuncturists.

In conclusion, while we are in full support of

practitioners being well trained in the medicine they

practice and have respect for the good intentions of

many of the ABORM board members, we believe that

self-appointed " boards " without oversight can be

exclusionary and possibly even harmful to the

profession. Although well intentioned, we find this

trend ill conceived.

If you would like to support this opposition, please

add your name to the petition by emailing

boycottaborm with your name, credentials,

state in which you practice, and any organization that

you represent.

Chinese Medicine , " rbaddorfaz "

<rbaddorf wrote:

>

> David,

> It has been my experience that on most internet boards, the

individual

> making any claims or advocating something, is the one responsible

to

> find the information and post it about the subject that they

brought

> up. (I know that is a confusing sentence, but I am tired right

now) In

> other words, if you are the one that brought up ABORM on this

board,

> you are the one that is responsible for finding the answers. It

is

> poor form to advocate something as being good or the future of our

> profession, and then tell everyone else that they have to do the

> research on the organization that you brought up and would

logically be

> more familer with than anyone else here. " Contact them and get

the

> answers yourself " in not considered to be polite. If you brought

this

> up, then supply the answers if you can, if not tell us that you

can't

> and then drop it.

> R. L. Baddorf

> LAc

>

September 11, 2007

gordon:

randine lewis practices out of TX, not asheville. a few years ago she was

bringing her patients here for weekend fertility seminars, but has stopped

doing that. we do not compete because:

1. she is immensely more experienced in the field of ORM that I (i

would hardly be 'competition' for her)

2. i do not " specialize " [more accurately, focus or

emphasize] in fertility acupuncture. i am a generalist practitioner.

i have nothing personal against ms lewis or any of the other ABORM board

members. in fact i respect their knowledge and expertise in the field, as i

have stated before. as you well know, i think this 'board' and

'specialization' they are attempted to created is a highly misguided effort,

albeit with more than likely altruist motives.

i cannot speculate on the motives of the individual board members as i have

not spoken to any of them personally about this, nor have i heard anything

about their personal motives from anyone else who has spoken directly to

them about this. what i said in my post was that there are facts that i

find troublesome that relate to motive; however, i do not draw conclusions

as this point from them as to motive.

and yes, david, that ms lewis has been quite successful in capitaliziing on

ORM through seminars, workshops and books is a fact. i do not draw a

negative judgement about it, all the power to her for having figured out a

way to do so. she is obviously quite able to capitalize on ORM. it is a

possibility that ABORM will be a money maker for the board members. i don't

know whether or not that is true, but if it is so, it does draw into

question motive on the on the part of the board members, and i for one find

that possibility troublesome. that is what i tried to convey in a briefer

manner on my original post.

hope this clarifies my possition for you,

kb

On 9/11/07, Gordon Mullins <gordon.mullins wrote:

> Kath,

>

> I've just noticed you practice out of Ashville in North Carolina. And you

> mentioned Randine Lewis, I know she also practices out of Ashville ,North

> Carolina, I'm sure you are aware of her extremely successful practice and

> the work she does in Ashville.

>

> To be honest when I see yo make a statement like this,

>

> 'i do note that at least one board member, randine lewis has been quite

> successful at

> turning a profit with books, seminars and workshops for fertility

> patients,

> in other

> words, capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive

> here. just noting facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome for

> me.'

>

> Now this looks like SOUR MILK to me...

>

> Is it just a coincidence that you initiated this move against ABORM and Dr

> Lewis .

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Gordon.

>

> On 9/11/07, flyingstarsfengshui <

flyingstarsfengshui<flyingstarsfengshui%40>>

> wrote:

> >

> > Well David:

> >

> > I thnk it is more consitutional, so just treating Liver Qi wont do

> > it, need to get to the yuan level my friend.

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>,

> > " David

> >

> > Karchmer " <acuprof wrote:

> > >

> > > Kath,

> > >

> > > I'll take your medical advice. Thanks.

> > >

> > > Since you " presume " that my condition " smacks " of Liver Qi

> > > stagnation, it MUST be a fact. Right?

> > >

> > > David

> > >

> > > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>,

> > " Kath

> > Bartlett,

> > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > david:

> > > >

> > > > i don't think we are allowed to say the D-word on the TCM site.

> > > >

> > > > hope you find the xiao yao wan soon. meanwhile, massage liv3

> > > >

> > > > k

> > > >

> > > > On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Well Kath,

> > > > >

> > > > > You're right. It irritates me. Because you are certainly not

> > the

> > > > > first to make negative assumptions about the financial motives

> > of

> > > > > the people involved with ABORM or Reproductive OM at large.

> > > > >

> > > > > But, you are the first that I have seen who described those

> > > > > assumptions as facts. And had you bothered to do so, you would

> > > have

> > > > > been the first one to do any fact-checking before publishing

> > your

> > > > > assumptions all over the internet.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now pass the GOD DAMNED Xiao Yao San!!!!

> > > > > --- In

> > >

> >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

> > > cine%40>,

> > > > > " Kath Bartlett,

> > > > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > david:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > just a suggestion: when you read an email that arouses your

> > > liver

> > > > > qi,

> > > > > > resist the temptation to hit reply and send immediately.

> > > rather,

> > > > > wait an

> > > > > > hour or even a day or two, breath, and chill out. and then

> > > decide

> > > > > if the

> > > > > > email requires a response. if so, you can then respond with

> > > less

> > > > > emotion.

> > > > > > (i try to follow this advice myself, although i admit,

> > > sometime i

> > > > > do hit

> > > > > > reply and send without pausing).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > hope this helps,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > kb

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Kath,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Let me get this straight. You are citing as " Facts "

> > something

> > > > > > > that " 'smacks' of a profitable money making venture for the

> > > > > board, "

> > > > > > > and money that is " 'presumably' going to pay the board

> > > > > members??? "

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > These are your facts? What you presume, and that

> > > which " smacks? "

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'll tell you what seems troublesome to me, the FACT that

> > > you are

> > > > > > > CLEARLY making assumptions, but then go on to state that

> > > you " do

> > > > > not

> > > > > > > mean to insinuate motive here. " And the fact that you then

> > > go on

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > claim that you are " just noting facts " when you are doing

> > > > > nothing of

> > > > > > > the kind.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As a non-profit the financial workings of the ABORM are

> > > designed

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > be completely transparent.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'll tell you the same thing I told David Twicken, if you

> > > want

> > > > > real

> > > > > > > facts then do your homework. Write a letter to the board

> > and

> > > ask

> > > > > > > them for their financial protocols. Pick up the phone and

> > > call

> > > > > Ray

> > > > > > > Rubio and tell him you are concerned and ask what kind f

> > > salary

> > > > > he

> > > > > > > intends to draw.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But for goodness' sakes, stop posting your fear based

> > > > > assumptions as

> > > > > > > data, and for REALLY GOODNESS' SAKES stop representing

> > those

> > > > > > > assumptions as facts!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > --- In

> > > > >

> > >

> >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

> > > cine%40>

> > > > > <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

> > > > > cine%40>,

> > > > > > > " Kath Bartlett,

> > > > > > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Julie,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > one of the posts from last week pointed out that not-for-

> > > profit

> > > > > > > just means

> > > > > > > > they run at break-even. but this doesn't preclude paying

> > > the

> > > > > > > board members,

> > > > > > > > so presumably the money is going to pay the board

> > members,

> > > > > costs of

> > > > > > > > administering the exam & printing those $1,000

> > > certificates,

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > any

> > > > > > > > advertising costs.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > i agree it smacks of a profitable money making venture

> > for

> > > the

> > > > > > > board.

> > > > > > > > although i do not have reason to believe that the board

> > > > > members do

> > > > > > > not have

> > > > > > > > altruistic motives of advancing ORM, i do note that at

> > > least

> > > > > one

> > > > > > > board

> > > > > > > > member, randine lewis has been quite successful at

> > turning

> > > a

> > > > > > > profit with

> > > > > > > > books, seminars and workshops for fertility patients, in

> > > other

> > > > > > > words,

> > > > > > > > capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive

> > > here.

> > > > > > > just noting

> > > > > > > > facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome for

> > me.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > kb

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > On 9/8/07, Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. <cariadanam@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this

> > test

> > > is

> > > > > not

> > > > > > > cheap in

> > > > > > > > > the slightest, where is this money going or into whose

> > > > > pockets?

> > > > > > > I am

> > > > > > > > > concerned this could just be a way to make money for

> > the

> > > > > board.

> > > > > > > > > Julie

> > > > > > > > >

September 11, 2007

Hi all, I believe this part is to the point:

" [ABORM] suggests that simply passing an exam structured by

self-interested parties somehow qualifies one to treat

fertility patients with more authority than other

practitioners. Education in western evaluative

measures can be informative, but will not necessarily

make us better acupuncturists. "

David Karchmer <acuprof

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, 11 September, 2007 10:25:42 AM

Re: ABORM Questions

Interesting perspective, RL. I don't know if you have been following

this thread from its earliest inception, but I never posted ANYTHING

on the subject of ABORM, Board Certification, or Specialization

until the now infamous " Open Letter " started circulating.

Do you remember the " open letter? "

It was posted August 8, 2007 by Marnae Ergil

Everything that I have posted has been in response to the contents

of that letter and the series of threads in response to it.

So, while I am not sure that a rule book on internet etiquette

exists that would put such an onus on any one poster as you suggest,

if such a rule does exist I still believe that the responsibility

rests with ABORM’s opponents.

Below is the “Open Letter” that started it all.

************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ***

**

Hello All,

Below I have posted an open letter to the community

regarding a new " board " exam for reproductive

medicine. This is clearly an important political

issue and one that all of us need to start thinking

about - both here in the US and internationally. I am

not posting this letter in order to start a hot

political debate online. I am happy to answer

questions about this letter, but do not want to get

into a big discussion. I encourage you to read the

letter and think about where you stand on this issue.

Thank you,

Marnae

AN OPEN LETTER TO OPPOSE ABORM

In response to the recent ad in Acupuncture Today for

an exam in Oriental Reproductive Medicine,

administered by the newly formed, self-appointed,

American Board of Oriental Reproductive Medicine (see

ABORM.org), we, the undersigned, as practitioners of

Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine, educators, members

of local and national acupuncture societies and

accredited certifying boards, would like to

respectfully oppose the attempts to form such

specialty boards and exams within our field. We oppose

this because:

1. There is no demonstrated need for this

certification

We are board certified by the NCCAOM and individual

states to treat the whole person, not a disease or

condition. Specialty certification imposes false

boundaries and there is neither need nor precedent for

this other than financial gain to the parties

attempting to impose it. The integrity of our medicine

will be compromised.

2. There is no oversight or accountability for such a

board

With its prominent use of the words " board " and

" certification " , ABORM invites confusion not only with

NCCAOM certification, but also with the ABMS (American

Board of Medical Specialties) Board Certification for

Medical Doctors. NCCAOM and ABMS are large,

independent certifying boards that comply with

nationwide standards for fairness and transparency.

ABMS defines specialty certification as ?of

significance for physicians preparing for careers in

teaching, research, or practice restricted to that

field? (italics added). ABORM, on the other hand,

states that their goal is to ?set the standard of care

in this field. (italics added). [They] have recognized

the need for a certification to ensure that

practitioners who are treating patients with Oriental

Medicine in the field of Reproductive Health are doing

so with a qualified knowledge and experience.? We

believe that the ABORM board is confused about the

role of specialty boards in medicine and is leading

our medicine down the wrong path.

3. There is no process supporting the content to be

provided

How is the content material determined? Has the board

gone through the process of making sure that their

content is unbiased and represents all of the numerous

traditions that exist? Does it give ?full recognition

to the diversity of acupuncture in the US, while also

providing a unified set of national standards for safe

and competent practice?? (NCCAOM website). The

creation of ABORM, and the exam offered by ABORM,

implies the intention of monopolizing a centralized

protocol for the treatment of patients with fertility

issues, and opens up the potential that this will

happen to all specialties that are treated by

acupuncture and Oriental medicine.

4. Malpractice coverage may become prohibitive and

exclusionary

In 2005, our profession was successful in removing the

exclusion in malpractice coverage for gynecological

conditions. Now, we are hoping the community of

practitioners will also recognize the inherent risks

of specialty boards and exams which will impose even

more stringent restrictions on practice if insurers

take such a certification into account when setting

fees. We are convinced that the virtual monopoly on

malpractice coverage will only continue to limit our

profession if this is allowed to happen.

5. There is all likelihood that this will damage

rather than benefit our profession.

While we enthusiastically advocate for continuing

education classes, we find that the structure as

presented may also be misleading to the public. It

suggests that simply passing an exam structured by

self-interested parties somehow qualifies one to treat

fertility patients with more authority than other

practitioners. Education in western evaluative

measures can be informative, but will not necessarily

make us better acupuncturists.

In conclusion, while we are in full support of

practitioners being well trained in the medicine they

practice and have respect for the good intentions of

many of the ABORM board members, we believe that

self-appointed " boards " without oversight can be

exclusionary and possibly even harmful to the

profession. Although well intentioned, we find this

trend ill conceived.

If you would like to support this opposition, please

add your name to the petition by emailing

boycottaborm@ ... with your name, credentials,

state in which you practice, and any organization that

you represent.

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " rbaddorfaz "

<rbaddorf@.. .> wrote:

>

> David,

> It has been my experience that on most internet boards, the

individual

> making any claims or advocating something, is the one responsible

to

> find the information and post it about the subject that they

brought

> up. (I know that is a confusing sentence, but I am tired right

now) In

> other words, if you are the one that brought up ABORM on this

board,

> you are the one that is responsible for finding the answers. It

is

> poor form to advocate something as being good or the future of our

> profession, and then tell everyone else that they have to do the

> research on the organization that you brought up and would

logically be

> more familer with than anyone else here. " Contact them and get

the

> answers yourself " in not considered to be polite. If you brought

this

> up, then supply the answers if you can, if not tell us that you

can't

> and then drop it.

> R. L. Baddorf

> LAc

>

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_________

Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it

now.

http://uk.answers./

September 11, 2007

Kath,

So as you are aware where I am coming from, I consider Dr Lewis to be a very

good friend of mine, an amazing teacher and a wonderful experienced

practitioner of TCM.

I have worked with her over the last number of years and view her work as

pioneering.

I must admit I take issue with your use of language and what it implies, you

keep mentioning ' capitaliziing ' and you may not mean it, but you put it

across as wrong. If you have read her book you will know that it has helped

thousands of women to get through and started on the fertility journey.

Her retreats produce amazing results and all are in the interest of helping

women and now couples. 'All the power to her for figuring a way to' - as you

mention..... well, I'll let you into her secret, it is honesty, integrity

and a passionate belief in wanting to help people on their fertility

journey, a very different picture to what you have pictured Dr Lewis.

And yes you cannot speculate on Board members motives.... But from the board

members I know it is for true and pure reasons and most likely due to the

frustrations of the current politics in acupuncture and their organisations.

Likewise here in Ireland I am frustrated by our acupuncture boards.

And I will be forming an Irish Board for ORM. All welcome of course..... So

as you know my motives are to further the knowledge of all and ensure that

the patient is number one..

And just a little correction, Dr Lewis has returned and is practicing in

Ashville since March 2007.

I really hope and support you if you intentions are true, you can show this

to me by ensuring all the questions being asked are of all the specialty

boards and not just ABORM. Showing your concerns are for all specialty

boards in existence.

Respectfully,

Gordon.

On 9/11/07, wrote:

>

> gordon:

>

> randine lewis practices out of TX, not asheville. a few years ago she was

> bringing her patients here for weekend fertility seminars, but has stopped

> doing that. we do not compete because:

>

> 1. she is immensely more experienced in the field of ORM that I (i

> would hardly be 'competition' for her)

> 2. i do not " specialize " [more accurately, focus or

> emphasize] in fertility acupuncture. i am a generalist practitioner.

>

> i have nothing personal against ms lewis or any of the other ABORM board

> members. in fact i respect their knowledge and expertise in the field, as

> i

> have stated before. as you well know, i think this 'board' and

> 'specialization' they are attempted to created is a highly misguided

> effort,

> albeit with more than likely altruist motives.

>

> i cannot speculate on the motives of the individual board members as i

> have

> not spoken to any of them personally about this, nor have i heard anything

> about their personal motives from anyone else who has spoken directly to

> them about this. what i said in my post was that there are facts that i

> find troublesome that relate to motive; however, i do not draw conclusions

> as this point from them as to motive.

>

> and yes, david, that ms lewis has been quite successful in capitaliziing

> on

> ORM through seminars, workshops and books is a fact. i do not draw a

> negative judgement about it, all the power to her for having figured out a

> way to do so. she is obviously quite able to capitalize on ORM. it is a

> possibility that ABORM will be a money maker for the board members. i

> don't

> know whether or not that is true, but if it is so, it does draw into

> question motive on the on the part of the board members, and i for one

> find

> that possibility troublesome. that is what i tried to convey in a briefer

> manner on my original post.

>

> hope this clarifies my possition for you,

>

> kb

>

> On 9/11/07, Gordon Mullins

<gordon.mullins<gordon.mullins%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

>

> > Kath,

> >

> > I've just noticed you practice out of Ashville in North Carolina. And

> you

> > mentioned Randine Lewis, I know she also practices out of Ashville

> ,North

> > Carolina, I'm sure you are aware of her extremely successful practice

> and

> > the work she does in Ashville.

> >

> > To be honest when I see yo make a statement like this,

> >

> > 'i do note that at least one board member, randine lewis has been quite

> > successful at

> > turning a profit with books, seminars and workshops for fertility

> > patients,

> > in other

> > words, capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive

> > here. just noting facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome for

> > me.'

> >

> > Now this looks like SOUR MILK to me...

> >

> > Is it just a coincidence that you initiated this move against ABORM and

> Dr

> > Lewis .

> >

> > Respectfully,

> >

> > Gordon.

> >

> > On 9/11/07, flyingstarsfengshui <

flyingstarsfengshui<flyingstarsfengshui%40>

> <flyingstarsfengshui%40>>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Well David:

> > >

> > > I thnk it is more consitutional, so just treating Liver Qi wont do

> > > it, need to get to the yuan level my friend.

> > >

> > > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>,

> > > " David

> > >

> > > Karchmer " <acuprof wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Kath,

> > > >

> > > > I'll take your medical advice. Thanks.

> > > >

> > > > Since you " presume " that my condition " smacks " of Liver Qi

> > > > stagnation, it MUST be a fact. Right?

> > > >

> > > > David

> > > >

> > > > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>,

> > > " Kath

> > > Bartlett,

> > > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > david:

> > > > >

> > > > > i don't think we are allowed to say the D-word on the TCM site.

> > > > >

> > > > > hope you find the xiao yao wan soon. meanwhile, massage liv3

> > > > >

> > > > > k

> > > > >

> > > > > On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Well Kath,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You're right. It irritates me. Because you are certainly not

> > > the

> > > > > > first to make negative assumptions about the financial motives

> > > of

> > > > > > the people involved with ABORM or Reproductive OM at large.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But, you are the first that I have seen who described those

> > > > > > assumptions as facts. And had you bothered to do so, you would

> > > > have

> > > > > > been the first one to do any fact-checking before publishing

> > > your

> > > > > > assumptions all over the internet.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now pass the GOD DAMNED Xiao Yao San!!!!

> > > > > > --- In

> > > >

> > >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

> > > > cine%40>,

> > > > > > " Kath Bartlett,

> > > > > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > david:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > just a suggestion: when you read an email that arouses your

> > > > liver

> > > > > > qi,

> > > > > > > resist the temptation to hit reply and send immediately.

> > > > rather,

> > > > > > wait an

> > > > > > > hour or even a day or two, breath, and chill out. and then

> > > > decide

> > > > > > if the

> > > > > > > email requires a response. if so, you can then respond with

> > > > less

> > > > > > emotion.

> > > > > > > (i try to follow this advice myself, although i admit,

> > > > sometime i

> > > > > > do hit

> > > > > > > reply and send without pausing).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > hope this helps,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > kb

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof@> wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Kath,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Let me get this straight. You are citing as " Facts "

> > > something

> > > > > > > > that " 'smacks' of a profitable money making venture for the

> > > > > > board, "

> > > > > > > > and money that is " 'presumably' going to pay the board

> > > > > > members??? "

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > These are your facts? What you presume, and that

> > > > which " smacks? "

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I'll tell you what seems troublesome to me, the FACT that

> > > > you are

> > > > > > > > CLEARLY making assumptions, but then go on to state that

> > > > you " do

> > > > > > not

> > > > > > > > mean to insinuate motive here. " And the fact that you then

> > > > go on

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > claim that you are " just noting facts " when you are doing

> > > > > > nothing of

> > > > > > > > the kind.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > As a non-profit the financial workings of the ABORM are

> > > > designed

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > be completely transparent.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I'll tell you the same thing I told David Twicken, if you

> > > > want

> > > > > > real

> > > > > > > > facts then do your homework. Write a letter to the board

> > > and

> > > > ask

> > > > > > > > them for their financial protocols. Pick up the phone and

> > > > call

> > > > > > Ray

> > > > > > > > Rubio and tell him you are concerned and ask what kind f

> > > > salary

> > > > > > he

> > > > > > > > intends to draw.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > But for goodness' sakes, stop posting your fear based

> > > > > > assumptions as

> > > > > > > > data, and for REALLY GOODNESS' SAKES stop representing

> > > those

> > > > > > > > assumptions as facts!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > --- In

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

> > > > cine%40>

> > > > > > <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

> > > > > > cine%40>,

> > > > > > > > " Kath Bartlett,

> > > > > > > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Julie,

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > one of the posts from last week pointed out that not-for-

> > > > profit

> > > > > > > > just means

> > > > > > > > > they run at break-even. but this doesn't preclude paying

> > > > the

> > > > > > > > board members,

> > > > > > > > > so presumably the money is going to pay the board

> > > members,

> > > > > > costs of

> > > > > > > > > administering the exam & printing those $1,000

> > > > certificates,

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > any

> > > > > > > > > advertising costs.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > i agree it smacks of a profitable money making venture

> > > for

> > > > the

> > > > > > > > board.

> > > > > > > > > although i do not have reason to believe that the board

> > > > > > members do

> > > > > > > > not have

> > > > > > > > > altruistic motives of advancing ORM, i do note that at

> > > > least

> > > > > > one

> > > > > > > > board

> > > > > > > > > member, randine lewis has been quite successful at

> > > turning

> > > > a

> > > > > > > > profit with

> > > > > > > > > books, seminars and workshops for fertility patients, in

> > > > other

> > > > > > > > words,

> > > > > > > > > capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive

> > > > here.

> > > > > > > > just noting

> > > > > > > > > facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome for

> > > me.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > kb

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > On 9/8/07, Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. <cariadanam@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this

> > > test

> > > > is

> > > > > > not

> > > > > > > > cheap in

> > > > > > > > > > the slightest, where is this money going or into whose

> > > > > > pockets?

> > > > > > > > I am

> > > > > > > > > > concerned this could just be a way to make money for

> > > the

> > > > > > board.

> > > > > > > > > > Julie

> > > > > > > > > >

September 11, 2007

gordon:

just curious, in what discipline did Dr. Lewis receive her PHD? the book

jacket doesn't say. only that her master's degree is in OM.

and btw: clearly Dr. lewis has a forte in her ability to connect and get the

message of OM across. that's is partly the nature of her success, and why i

recommend her book to my patients.

k

On 9/11/07, Gordon Mullins <gordon.mullins wrote:

>

> Kath,

>

> So as you are aware where I am coming from, I consider Dr Lewis to be a

> very

> good friend of mine, an amazing teacher and a wonderful experienced

> practitioner of TCM.

>

> I have worked with her over the last number of years and view her work as

> pioneering.

>

> I must admit I take issue with your use of language and what it implies,

> you

> keep mentioning ' capitaliziing ' and you may not mean it, but you put it

> across as wrong. If you have read her book you will know that it has

> helped

> thousands of women to get through and started on the fertility journey.

>

> Her retreats produce amazing results and all are in the interest of

> helping

> women and now couples. 'All the power to her for figuring a way to' - as

> you

> mention..... well, I'll let you into her secret, it is honesty, integrity

> and a passionate belief in wanting to help people on their fertility

> journey, a very different picture to what you have pictured Dr Lewis.

>

> And yes you cannot speculate on Board members motives.... But from the

> board

> members I know it is for true and pure reasons and most likely due to the

> frustrations of the current politics in acupuncture and their

> organisations.

> Likewise here in Ireland I am frustrated by our acupuncture boards.

>

> And I will be forming an Irish Board for ORM. All welcome of course.....

> So

> as you know my motives are to further the knowledge of all and ensure that

> the patient is number one..

>

> And just a little correction, Dr Lewis has returned and is practicing in

> Ashville since March 2007.

>

> I really hope and support you if you intentions are true, you can show

> this

> to me by ensuring all the questions being asked are of all the specialty

> boards and not just ABORM. Showing your concerns are for all specialty

> boards in existence.

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Gordon.

>

> On 9/11/07, <acukath<acukath%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

> >

> > gordon:

> >

> > randine lewis practices out of TX, not asheville. a few years ago she

> was

> > bringing her patients here for weekend fertility seminars, but has

> stopped

> > doing that. we do not compete because:

> >

> > 1. she is immensely more experienced in the field of ORM that I (i

> > would hardly be 'competition' for her)

> > 2. i do not " specialize " [more accurately, focus or

> > emphasize] in fertility acupuncture. i am a generalist practitioner.

> >

> > i have nothing personal against ms lewis or any of the other ABORM board

> > members. in fact i respect their knowledge and expertise in the field,

> as

> > i

> > have stated before. as you well know, i think this 'board' and

> > 'specialization' they are attempted to created is a highly misguided

> > effort,

> > albeit with more than likely altruist motives.

> >

> > i cannot speculate on the motives of the individual board members as i

> > have

> > not spoken to any of them personally about this, nor have i heard

> anything

> > about their personal motives from anyone else who has spoken directly to

> > them about this. what i said in my post was that there are facts that i

> > find troublesome that relate to motive; however, i do not draw

> conclusions

> > as this point from them as to motive.

> >

> > and yes, david, that ms lewis has been quite successful in capitaliziing

> > on

> > ORM through seminars, workshops and books is a fact. i do not draw a

> > negative judgement about it, all the power to her for having figured out

> a

> > way to do so. she is obviously quite able to capitalize on ORM. it is a

> > possibility that ABORM will be a money maker for the board members. i

> > don't

> > know whether or not that is true, but if it is so, it does draw into

> > question motive on the on the part of the board members, and i for one

> > find

> > that possibility troublesome. that is what i tried to convey in a

> briefer

> > manner on my original post.

> >

> > hope this clarifies my possition for you,

> >

> > kb

> >

> > On 9/11/07, Gordon Mullins

<gordon.mullins<gordon.mullins%40gmail.com>

> <gordon.mullins%40gmail.com>>

> > wrote:

> >

> > > Kath,

> > >

> > > I've just noticed you practice out of Ashville in North Carolina. And

> > you

> > > mentioned Randine Lewis, I know she also practices out of Ashville

> > ,North

> > > Carolina, I'm sure you are aware of her extremely successful practice

> > and

> > > the work she does in Ashville.

> > >

> > > To be honest when I see yo make a statement like this,

> > >

> > > 'i do note that at least one board member, randine lewis has been

> quite

> > > successful at

> > > turning a profit with books, seminars and workshops for fertility

> > > patients,

> > > in other

> > > words, capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive

> > > here. just noting facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome

> for

> > > me.'

> > >

> > > Now this looks like SOUR MILK to me...

> > >

> > > Is it just a coincidence that you initiated this move against ABORM

> and

> > Dr

> > > Lewis .

> > >

> > > Respectfully,

> > >

> > > Gordon.

> > >

> > > On 9/11/07, flyingstarsfengshui <

flyingstarsfengshui<flyingstarsfengshui%40>

> <flyingstarsfengshui%40>

> > <flyingstarsfengshui%40>>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Well David:

> > > >

> > > > I thnk it is more consitutional, so just treating Liver Qi wont do

> > > > it, need to get to the yuan level my friend.

> > > >

> > > > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > <Chinese Medicine%40>,

> > > > " David

> > > >

> > > > Karchmer " <acuprof wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Kath,

> > > > >

> > > > > I'll take your medical advice. Thanks.

> > > > >

> > > > > Since you " presume " that my condition " smacks " of Liver Qi

> > > > > stagnation, it MUST be a fact. Right?

> > > > >

> > > > > David

> > > > >

> > > > > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > <Chinese Medicine%40>,

> > > > " Kath

> > > > Bartlett,

> > > > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > david:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > i don't think we are allowed to say the D-word on the TCM site.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > hope you find the xiao yao wan soon. meanwhile, massage liv3

> > > > > >

> > > > > > k

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Well Kath,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You're right. It irritates me. Because you are certainly not

> > > > the

> > > > > > > first to make negative assumptions about the financial motives

> > > > of

> > > > > > > the people involved with ABORM or Reproductive OM at large.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But, you are the first that I have seen who described those

> > > > > > > assumptions as facts. And had you bothered to do so, you would

> > > > > have

> > > > > > > been the first one to do any fact-checking before publishing

> > > > your

> > > > > > > assumptions all over the internet.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Now pass the GOD DAMNED Xiao Yao San!!!!

> > > > > > > --- In

> > > > >

> > > >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > > <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

> > > > > cine%40>,

> > > > > > > " Kath Bartlett,

> > > > > > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > david:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > just a suggestion: when you read an email that arouses your

> > > > > liver

> > > > > > > qi,

> > > > > > > > resist the temptation to hit reply and send immediately.

> > > > > rather,

> > > > > > > wait an

> > > > > > > > hour or even a day or two, breath, and chill out. and then

> > > > > decide

> > > > > > > if the

> > > > > > > > email requires a response. if so, you can then respond with

> > > > > less

> > > > > > > emotion.

> > > > > > > > (i try to follow this advice myself, although i admit,

> > > > > sometime i

> > > > > > > do hit

> > > > > > > > reply and send without pausing).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > hope this helps,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > kb

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Kath,

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Let me get this straight. You are citing as " Facts "

> > > > something

> > > > > > > > > that " 'smacks' of a profitable money making venture for

> the

> > > > > > > board, "

> > > > > > > > > and money that is " 'presumably' going to pay the board

> > > > > > > members??? "

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > These are your facts? What you presume, and that

> > > > > which " smacks? "

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I'll tell you what seems troublesome to me, the FACT that

> > > > > you are

> > > > > > > > > CLEARLY making assumptions, but then go on to state that

> > > > > you " do

> > > > > > > not

> > > > > > > > > mean to insinuate motive here. " And the fact that you then

> > > > > go on

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > claim that you are " just noting facts " when you are doing

> > > > > > > nothing of

> > > > > > > > > the kind.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > As a non-profit the financial workings of the ABORM are

> > > > > designed

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > be completely transparent.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I'll tell you the same thing I told David Twicken, if you

> > > > > want

> > > > > > > real

> > > > > > > > > facts then do your homework. Write a letter to the board

> > > > and

> > > > > ask

> > > > > > > > > them for their financial protocols. Pick up the phone and

> > > > > call

> > > > > > > Ray

> > > > > > > > > Rubio and tell him you are concerned and ask what kind f

> > > > > salary

> > > > > > > he

> > > > > > > > > intends to draw.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > But for goodness' sakes, stop posting your fear based

> > > > > > > assumptions as

> > > > > > > > > data, and for REALLY GOODNESS' SAKES stop representing

> > > > those

> > > > > > > > > assumptions as facts!

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > --- In

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > > <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

> > > > > cine%40>

> > > > > > > <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

> > > > > > > cine%40>,

> > > > > > > > > " Kath Bartlett,

> > > > > > > > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Julie,

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > one of the posts from last week pointed out that

> not-for-

> > > > > profit

> > > > > > > > > just means

> > > > > > > > > > they run at break-even. but this doesn't preclude paying

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > board members,

> > > > > > > > > > so presumably the money is going to pay the board

> > > > members,

> > > > > > > costs of

> > > > > > > > > > administering the exam & printing those $1,000

> > > > > certificates,

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > any

> > > > > > > > > > advertising costs.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > i agree it smacks of a profitable money making venture

> > > > for

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > board.

> > > > > > > > > > although i do not have reason to believe that the board

> > > > > > > members do

> > > > > > > > > not have

> > > > > > > > > > altruistic motives of advancing ORM, i do note that at

> > > > > least

> > > > > > > one

> > > > > > > > > board

> > > > > > > > > > member, randine lewis has been quite successful at

> > > > turning

> > > > > a

> > > > > > > > > profit with

> > > > > > > > > > books, seminars and workshops for fertility patients, in

> > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > words,

> > > > > > > > > > capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive

> > > > > here.

> > > > > > > > > just noting

> > > > > > > > > > facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome for

> > > > me.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > kb

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > On 9/8/07, Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. <cariadanam@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this

> > > > test

> > > > > is

> > > > > > > not

> > > > > > > > > cheap in

> > > > > > > > > > > the slightest, where is this money going or into whose

> > > > > > > pockets?

> > > > > > > > > I am

> > > > > > > > > > > concerned this could just be a way to make money for

> > > > the

> > > > > > > board.

> > > > > > > > > > > Julie

> > > > > > > > > > >

September 12, 2007

I'll ask Randine for you.

Gordon.

On 9/11/07, wrote:

>

> gordon:

>

> just curious, in what discipline did Dr. Lewis receive her PHD? the book

> jacket doesn't say. only that her master's degree is in OM.

>

> and btw: clearly Dr. lewis has a forte in her ability to connect and get

> the

> message of OM across. that's is partly the nature of her success, and why

> i

> recommend her book to my patients.

>

> k

>

> On 9/11/07, Gordon Mullins

<gordon.mullins<gordon.mullins%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

> >

> > Kath,

> >

> > So as you are aware where I am coming from, I consider Dr Lewis to be a

> > very

> > good friend of mine, an amazing teacher and a wonderful experienced

> > practitioner of TCM.

> >

> > I have worked with her over the last number of years and view her work

> as

> > pioneering.

> >

> > I must admit I take issue with your use of language and what it implies,

> > you

> > keep mentioning ' capitaliziing ' and you may not mean it, but you put

> it

> > across as wrong. If you have read her book you will know that it has

> > helped

> > thousands of women to get through and started on the fertility journey.

> >

> > Her retreats produce amazing results and all are in the interest of

> > helping

> > women and now couples. 'All the power to her for figuring a way to' - as

> > you

> > mention..... well, I'll let you into her secret, it is honesty,

> integrity

> > and a passionate belief in wanting to help people on their fertility

> > journey, a very different picture to what you have pictured Dr Lewis.

> >

> > And yes you cannot speculate on Board members motives.... But from the

> > board

> > members I know it is for true and pure reasons and most likely due to

> the

> > frustrations of the current politics in acupuncture and their

> > organisations.

> > Likewise here in Ireland I am frustrated by our acupuncture boards.

> >

> > And I will be forming an Irish Board for ORM. All welcome of course.....

> > So

> > as you know my motives are to further the knowledge of all and ensure

> that

> > the patient is number one..

> >

> > And just a little correction, Dr Lewis has returned and is practicing in

> > Ashville since March 2007.

> >

> > I really hope and support you if you intentions are true, you can show

> > this

> > to me by ensuring all the questions being asked are of all the specialty

> > boards and not just ABORM. Showing your concerns are for all specialty

> > boards in existence.

> >

> > Respectfully,

> >

> > Gordon.

> >

> > On 9/11/07, <acukath<acukath%40gmail.com>

> <acukath%40gmail.com>>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > gordon:

> > >

> > > randine lewis practices out of TX, not asheville. a few years ago she

> > was

> > > bringing her patients here for weekend fertility seminars, but has

> > stopped

> > > doing that. we do not compete because:

> > >

> > > 1. she is immensely more experienced in the field of ORM that I (i

> > > would hardly be 'competition' for her)

> > > 2. i do not " specialize " [more accurately, focus or

> > > emphasize] in fertility acupuncture. i am a generalist practitioner.

> > >

> > > i have nothing personal against ms lewis or any of the other ABORM

> board

> > > members. in fact i respect their knowledge and expertise in the field,

> > as

> > > i

> > > have stated before. as you well know, i think this 'board' and

> > > 'specialization' they are attempted to created is a highly misguided

> > > effort,

> > > albeit with more than likely altruist motives.

> > >

> > > i cannot speculate on the motives of the individual board members as i

> > > have

> > > not spoken to any of them personally about this, nor have i heard

> > anything

> > > about their personal motives from anyone else who has spoken directly

> to

> > > them about this. what i said in my post was that there are facts that

> i

> > > find troublesome that relate to motive; however, i do not draw

> > conclusions

> > > as this point from them as to motive.

> > >

> > > and yes, david, that ms lewis has been quite successful in

> capitaliziing

> > > on

> > > ORM through seminars, workshops and books is a fact. i do not draw a

> > > negative judgement about it, all the power to her for having figured

> out

> > a

> > > way to do so. she is obviously quite able to capitalize on ORM. it is

> a

> > > possibility that ABORM will be a money maker for the board members. i

> > > don't

> > > know whether or not that is true, but if it is so, it does draw into

> > > question motive on the on the part of the board members, and i for one

> > > find

> > > that possibility troublesome. that is what i tried to convey in a

> > briefer

> > > manner on my original post.

> > >

> > > hope this clarifies my possition for you,

> > >

> > > kb

> > >

> > > On 9/11/07, Gordon Mullins

<gordon.mullins<gordon.mullins%40gmail.com>

> <gordon.mullins%40gmail.com>

> > <gordon.mullins%40gmail.com>>

> > > wrote:

> > >

> > > > Kath,

> > > >

> > > > I've just noticed you practice out of Ashville in North Carolina.

> And

> > > you

> > > > mentioned Randine Lewis, I know she also practices out of Ashville

> > > ,North

> > > > Carolina, I'm sure you are aware of her extremely successful

> practice

> > > and

> > > > the work she does in Ashville.

> > > >

> > > > To be honest when I see yo make a statement like this,

> > > >

> > > > 'i do note that at least one board member, randine lewis has been

> > quite

> > > > successful at

> > > > turning a profit with books, seminars and workshops for fertility

> > > > patients,

> > > > in other

> > > > words, capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive

> > > > here. just noting facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome

> > for

> > > > me.'

> > > >

> > > > Now this looks like SOUR MILK to me...

> > > >

> > > > Is it just a coincidence that you initiated this move against ABORM

> > and

> > > Dr

> > > > Lewis .

> > > >

> > > > Respectfully,

> > > >

> > > > Gordon.

> > > >

> > > > On 9/11/07, flyingstarsfengshui <

flyingstarsfengshui<flyingstarsfengshui%40>

> <flyingstarsfengshui%40>

> > <flyingstarsfengshui%40>

> > > <flyingstarsfengshui%40>>

> > > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Well David:

> > > > >

> > > > > I thnk it is more consitutional, so just treating Liver Qi wont do

> > > > > it, need to get to the yuan level my friend.

> > > > >

> > > > > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > > <Chinese Medicine%40>,

> > > > > " David

> > > > >

> > > > > Karchmer " <acuprof wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Kath,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'll take your medical advice. Thanks.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Since you " presume " that my condition " smacks " of Liver Qi

> > > > > > stagnation, it MUST be a fact. Right?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > David

> > > > > >

> > > > > > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > > <Chinese Medicine%40>,

> > > > > " Kath

> > > > > Bartlett,

> > > > > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > david:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > i don't think we are allowed to say the D-word on the TCM

> site.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > hope you find the xiao yao wan soon. meanwhile, massage liv3

>

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > k

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof@> wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Well Kath,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You're right. It irritates me. Because you are certainly not

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > first to make negative assumptions about the financial

> motives

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > > the people involved with ABORM or Reproductive OM at large.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > But, you are the first that I have seen who described those

> > > > > > > > assumptions as facts. And had you bothered to do so, you

> would

> > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > been the first one to do any fact-checking before publishing

> > > > > your

> > > > > > > > assumptions all over the internet.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Now pass the GOD DAMNED Xiao Yao San!!!!

> > > > > > > > --- In

> > > > > >

> > > > >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > > > <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

> > > > > > cine%40>,

> > > > > > > > " Kath Bartlett,

> > > > > > > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > david:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > just a suggestion: when you read an email that arouses

> your

> > > > > > liver

> > > > > > > > qi,

> > > > > > > > > resist the temptation to hit reply and send immediately.

> > > > > > rather,

> > > > > > > > wait an

> > > > > > > > > hour or even a day or two, breath, and chill out. and then

> > > > > > decide

> > > > > > > > if the

> > > > > > > > > email requires a response. if so, you can then respond

> with

> > > > > > less

> > > > > > > > emotion.

> > > > > > > > > (i try to follow this advice myself, although i admit,

> > > > > > sometime i

> > > > > > > > do hit

> > > > > > > > > reply and send without pausing).

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > hope this helps,

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > kb

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Kath,

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Let me get this straight. You are citing as " Facts "

> > > > > something

> > > > > > > > > > that " 'smacks' of a profitable money making venture for

> > the

> > > > > > > > board, "

> > > > > > > > > > and money that is " 'presumably' going to pay the board

> > > > > > > > members??? "

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > These are your facts? What you presume, and that

> > > > > > which " smacks? "

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I'll tell you what seems troublesome to me, the FACT

> that

> > > > > > you are

> > > > > > > > > > CLEARLY making assumptions, but then go on to state that

> > > > > > you " do

> > > > > > > > not

> > > > > > > > > > mean to insinuate motive here. " And the fact that you

> then

> > > > > > go on

> > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > claim that you are " just noting facts " when you are

> doing

> > > > > > > > nothing of

> > > > > > > > > > the kind.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > As a non-profit the financial workings of the ABORM are

> > > > > > designed

> > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > be completely transparent.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I'll tell you the same thing I told David Twicken, if

> you

> > > > > > want

> > > > > > > > real

> > > > > > > > > > facts then do your homework. Write a letter to the board

> > > > > and

> > > > > > ask

> > > > > > > > > > them for their financial protocols. Pick up the phone

> and

> > > > > > call

> > > > > > > > Ray

> > > > > > > > > > Rubio and tell him you are concerned and ask what kind f

> > > > > > salary

> > > > > > > > he

> > > > > > > > > > intends to draw.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > But for goodness' sakes, stop posting your fear based

> > > > > > > > assumptions as

> > > > > > > > > > data, and for REALLY GOODNESS' SAKES stop representing

> > > > > those

> > > > > > > > > > assumptions as facts!

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > --- In

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > > > <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

> > > > > > cine%40>

> > > > > > > > <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

> > > > > > > > cine%40>,

> > > > > > > > > > " Kath Bartlett,

> > > > > > > > > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Julie,

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > one of the posts from last week pointed out that

> > not-for-

> > > > > > profit

> > > > > > > > > > just means

> > > > > > > > > > > they run at break-even. but this doesn't preclude

> paying

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > board members,

> > > > > > > > > > > so presumably the money is going to pay the board

> > > > > members,

> > > > > > > > costs of

> > > > > > > > > > > administering the exam & printing those $1,000

> > > > > > certificates,

> > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > any

> > > > > > > > > > > advertising costs.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > i agree it smacks of a profitable money making venture

> > > > > for

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > board.

> > > > > > > > > > > although i do not have reason to believe that the

> board

> > > > > > > > members do

> > > > > > > > > > not have

> > > > > > > > > > > altruistic motives of advancing ORM, i do note that at

> > > > > > least

> > > > > > > > one

> > > > > > > > > > board

> > > > > > > > > > > member, randine lewis has been quite successful at

> > > > > turning

> > > > > > a

> > > > > > > > > > profit with

> > > > > > > > > > > books, seminars and workshops for fertility patients,

> in

> > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > > words,

> > > > > > > > > > > capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive

> > > > > > here.

> > > > > > > > > > just noting

> > > > > > > > > > > facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome for

> > > > > me.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > kb

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > On 9/8/07, Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. <cariadanam@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this

> > > > > test

> > > > > > is

> > > > > > > > not

> > > > > > > > > > cheap in

> > > > > > > > > > > > the slightest, where is this money going or into

> whose

> > > > > > > > pockets?

> > > > > > > > > > I am

> > > > > > > > > > > > concerned this could just be a way to make money for

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > board.

> > > > > > > > > > > > Julie

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine

> > > > > > > > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For

> > > > > > > > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> > > > > > > > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> > > > > > > > > > > kbartlett@

> > > > > > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

> > > > > > > > > > >

September 12, 2007

I'm not 100% sure, so don't quote me. But, I believe it is in

Nutrition.

David K

Chinese Medicine , " Gordon Mullins "

<gordon.mullins wrote:

>

> I'll ask Randine for you.

>

> Gordon.

>

> On 9/11/07, wrote:

> >

> > gordon:

> >

> > just curious, in what discipline did Dr. Lewis receive her PHD?

the book

> > jacket doesn't say. only that her master's degree is in OM.

> >

> > and btw: clearly Dr. lewis has a forte in her ability to connect

and get

> > the

> > message of OM across. that's is partly the nature of her success,

and why

> > i

> > recommend her book to my patients.

> >

> > k

> >

September 13, 2007

thanks. i was surprised to learn that she randine is practicing here. the

new yellow pages came out in july, and she's not listed. i've visied her

website in the past 2-3 mos, and didn't notice a reference about an

asheville office. where in asheville is she located? i may want to refer

to her.

k

On 9/12/07, Gordon Mullins <gordon.mullins wrote:

>

> I'll ask Randine for you.

>

> Gordon.

>

> On 9/11/07, <acukath<acukath%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

> >

> > gordon:

> >

> > just curious, in what discipline did Dr. Lewis receive her PHD? the book

> > jacket doesn't say. only that her master's degree is in OM.

> >

> > and btw: clearly Dr. lewis has a forte in her ability to connect and get

> > the

> > message of OM across. that's is partly the nature of her success, and

> why

> > i

> > recommend her book to my patients.

> >

> > k

> >

> > On 9/11/07, Gordon Mullins

<gordon.mullins<gordon.mullins%40gmail.com>

> <gordon.mullins%40gmail.com>>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Kath,

> > >

> > > So as you are aware where I am coming from, I consider Dr Lewis to be

> a

> > > very

> > > good friend of mine, an amazing teacher and a wonderful experienced

> > > practitioner of TCM.

> > >

> > > I have worked with her over the last number of years and view her work

> > as

> > > pioneering.

> > >

> > > I must admit I take issue with your use of language and what it

> implies,

> > > you

> > > keep mentioning ' capitaliziing ' and you may not mean it, but you put

> > it

> > > across as wrong. If you have read her book you will know that it has

> > > helped

> > > thousands of women to get through and started on the fertility

> journey.

> > >

> > > Her retreats produce amazing results and all are in the interest of

> > > helping

> > > women and now couples. 'All the power to her for figuring a way to' -

> as

> > > you

> > > mention..... well, I'll let you into her secret, it is honesty,

> > integrity

> > > and a passionate belief in wanting to help people on their fertility

> > > journey, a very different picture to what you have pictured Dr Lewis.

> > >

> > > And yes you cannot speculate on Board members motives.... But from the

> > > board

> > > members I know it is for true and pure reasons and most likely due to

> > the

> > > frustrations of the current politics in acupuncture and their

> > > organisations.

> > > Likewise here in Ireland I am frustrated by our acupuncture boards.

> > >

> > > And I will be forming an Irish Board for ORM. All welcome of

> course.....

> > > So

> > > as you know my motives are to further the knowledge of all and ensure

> > that

> > > the patient is number one..

> > >

> > > And just a little correction, Dr Lewis has returned and is practicing

> in

> > > Ashville since March 2007.

> > >

> > > I really hope and support you if you intentions are true, you can show

> > > this

> > > to me by ensuring all the questions being asked are of all the

> specialty

> > > boards and not just ABORM. Showing your concerns are for all specialty

> > > boards in existence.

> > >

> > > Respectfully,

> > >

> > > Gordon.

> > >

> > > On 9/11/07, <acukath<acukath%40gmail.com>

> <acukath%40gmail.com>

> > <acukath%40gmail.com>>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > gordon:

> > > >

> > > > randine lewis practices out of TX, not asheville. a few years ago

> she

> > > was

> > > > bringing her patients here for weekend fertility seminars, but has

> > > stopped

> > > > doing that. we do not compete because:

> > > >

> > > > 1. she is immensely more experienced in the field of ORM that I (i

> > > > would hardly be 'competition' for her)

> > > > 2. i do not " specialize " [more accurately, focus or

> > > > emphasize] in fertility acupuncture. i am a generalist practitioner.

> > > >

> > > > i have nothing personal against ms lewis or any of the other ABORM

> > board

> > > > members. in fact i respect their knowledge and expertise in the

> field,

> > > as

> > > > i

> > > > have stated before. as you well know, i think this 'board' and

> > > > 'specialization' they are attempted to created is a highly misguided

> > > > effort,

> > > > albeit with more than likely altruist motives.

> > > >

> > > > i cannot speculate on the motives of the individual board members as

> i

> > > > have

> > > > not spoken to any of them personally about this, nor have i heard

> > > anything

> > > > about their personal motives from anyone else who has spoken

> directly

> > to

> > > > them about this. what i said in my post was that there are facts

> that

> > i

> > > > find troublesome that relate to motive; however, i do not draw

> > > conclusions

> > > > as this point from them as to motive.

> > > >

> > > > and yes, david, that ms lewis has been quite successful in

> > capitaliziing

> > > > on

> > > > ORM through seminars, workshops and books is a fact. i do not draw a

> > > > negative judgement about it, all the power to her for having figured

> > out

> > > a

> > > > way to do so. she is obviously quite able to capitalize on ORM. it

> is

> > a

> > > > possibility that ABORM will be a money maker for the board members.

> i

> > > > don't

> > > > know whether or not that is true, but if it is so, it does draw into

> > > > question motive on the on the part of the board members, and i for

> one

> > > > find

> > > > that possibility troublesome. that is what i tried to convey in a

> > > briefer

> > > > manner on my original post.

> > > >

> > > > hope this clarifies my possition for you,

> > > >

> > > > kb

> > > >

> > > > On 9/11/07, Gordon Mullins

<gordon.mullins<gordon.mullins%40gmail.com>

> <gordon.mullins%40gmail.com>

> > <gordon.mullins%40gmail.com>

> > > <gordon.mullins%40gmail.com>>

> > > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > > Kath,

> > > > >

> > > > > I've just noticed you practice out of Ashville in North Carolina.

> > And

> > > > you

> > > > > mentioned Randine Lewis, I know she also practices out of Ashville

> > > > ,North

> > > > > Carolina, I'm sure you are aware of her extremely successful

> > practice

> > > > and

> > > > > the work she does in Ashville.

> > > > >

> > > > > To be honest when I see yo make a statement like this,

> > > > >

> > > > > 'i do note that at least one board member, randine lewis has been

> > > quite

> > > > > successful at

> > > > > turning a profit with books, seminars and workshops for fertility

> > > > > patients,

> > > > > in other

> > > > > words, capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive

> > > > > here. just noting facts, as i see them, and which appear

> troublesome

> > > for

> > > > > me.'

> > > > >

> > > > > Now this looks like SOUR MILK to me...

> > > > >

> > > > > Is it just a coincidence that you initiated this move against

> ABORM

> > > and

> > > > Dr

> > > > > Lewis .

> > > > >

> > > > > Respectfully,

> > > > >

> > > > > Gordon.

> > > > >

> > > > > On 9/11/07, flyingstarsfengshui <

flyingstarsfengshui<flyingstarsfengshui%40>

> <flyingstarsfengshui%40>

> > <flyingstarsfengshui%40>

> > > <flyingstarsfengshui%40>

> > > > <flyingstarsfengshui%40>>

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Well David:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I thnk it is more consitutional, so just treating Liver Qi wont

> do

> > > > > > it, need to get to the yuan level my friend.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > > > <Chinese Medicine%40>,

> > > > > > " David

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Karchmer " <acuprof wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Kath,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'll take your medical advice. Thanks.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Since you " presume " that my condition " smacks " of Liver Qi

> > > > > > > stagnation, it MUST be a fact. Right?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > David

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > > > <Chinese Medicine%40>,

> > > > > > " Kath

> > > > > > Bartlett,

> > > > > > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > david:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > i don't think we are allowed to say the D-word on the TCM

> > site.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > hope you find the xiao yao wan soon. meanwhile, massage liv3

> >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > k

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Well Kath,

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > You're right. It irritates me. Because you are certainly

> not

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > first to make negative assumptions about the financial

> > motives

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > the people involved with ABORM or Reproductive OM at

> large.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > But, you are the first that I have seen who described

> those

> > > > > > > > > assumptions as facts. And had you bothered to do so, you

> > would

> > > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > been the first one to do any fact-checking before

> publishing

> > > > > > your

> > > > > > > > > assumptions all over the internet.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Now pass the GOD DAMNED Xiao Yao San!!!!

> > > > > > > > > --- In

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > > > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > > > > <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

> > > > > > > cine%40>,

> > > > > > > > > " Kath Bartlett,

> > > > > > > > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > david:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > just a suggestion: when you read an email that arouses

> > your

> > > > > > > liver

> > > > > > > > > qi,

> > > > > > > > > > resist the temptation to hit reply and send immediately.

> > > > > > > rather,

> > > > > > > > > wait an

> > > > > > > > > > hour or even a day or two, breath, and chill out. and

> then

> > > > > > > decide

> > > > > > > > > if the

> > > > > > > > > > email requires a response. if so, you can then respond

> > with

> > > > > > > less

> > > > > > > > > emotion.

> > > > > > > > > > (i try to follow this advice myself, although i admit,

> > > > > > > sometime i

> > > > > > > > > do hit

> > > > > > > > > > reply and send without pausing).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > hope this helps,

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > kb

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Kath,

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Let me get this straight. You are citing as " Facts "

> > > > > > something

> > > > > > > > > > > that " 'smacks' of a profitable money making venture

> for

> > > the

> > > > > > > > > board, "

> > > > > > > > > > > and money that is " 'presumably' going to pay the board

> > > > > > > > > members??? "

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > These are your facts? What you presume, and that

> > > > > > > which " smacks? "

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I'll tell you what seems troublesome to me, the FACT

> > that

> > > > > > > you are

> > > > > > > > > > > CLEARLY making assumptions, but then go on to state

> that

> > > > > > > you " do

> > > > > > > > > not

> > > > > > > > > > > mean to insinuate motive here. " And the fact that you

> > then

> > > > > > > go on

> > > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > > claim that you are " just noting facts " when you are

> > doing

> > > > > > > > > nothing of

> > > > > > > > > > > the kind.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > As a non-profit the financial workings of the ABORM

> are

> > > > > > > designed

> > > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > > be completely transparent.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I'll tell you the same thing I told David Twicken, if

> > you

> > > > > > > want

> > > > > > > > > real

> > > > > > > > > > > facts then do your homework. Write a letter to the

> board

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > ask

> > > > > > > > > > > them for their financial protocols. Pick up the phone

> > and

> > > > > > > call

> > > > > > > > > Ray

> > > > > > > > > > > Rubio and tell him you are concerned and ask what kind

> f

> > > > > > > salary

> > > > > > > > > he

> > > > > > > > > > > intends to draw.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > But for goodness' sakes, stop posting your fear based

> > > > > > > > > assumptions as

> > > > > > > > > > > data, and for REALLY GOODNESS' SAKES stop representing

> > > > > > those

> > > > > > > > > > > assumptions as facts!

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > --- In

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > > > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > > > > <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

> > > > > > > cine%40>

> > > > > > > > > <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

> > > > > > > > > cine%40>,

> > > > > > > > > > > " Kath Bartlett,

> > > > > > > > > > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Julie,

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > one of the posts from last week pointed out that

> > > not-for-

> > > > > > > profit

> > > > > > > > > > > just means

> > > > > > > > > > > > they run at break-even. but this doesn't preclude

> > paying

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > board members,

> > > > > > > > > > > > so presumably the money is going to pay the board

> > > > > > members,

> > > > > > > > > costs of

> > > > > > > > > > > > administering the exam & printing those $1,000

> > > > > > > certificates,

> > > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > any

> > > > > > > > > > > > advertising costs.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > i agree it smacks of a profitable money making

> venture

> > > > > > for

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > board.

> > > > > > > > > > > > although i do not have reason to believe that the

> > board

> > > > > > > > > members do

> > > > > > > > > > > not have

> > > > > > > > > > > > altruistic motives of advancing ORM, i do note that

> at

> > > > > > > least

> > > > > > > > > one

> > > > > > > > > > > board

> > > > > > > > > > > > member, randine lewis has been quite successful at

> > > > > > turning

> > > > > > > a

> > > > > > > > > > > profit with

> > > > > > > > > > > > books, seminars and workshops for fertility

> patients,

> > in

> > > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > > > words,

> > > > > > > > > > > > capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate

> motive

> > > > > > > here.

> > > > > > > > > > > just noting

> > > > > > > > > > > > facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome

> for

> > > > > > me.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > kb

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/8/07, Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. <cariadanam@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this

> > > > > > test

> > > > > > > is

> > > > > > > > > not

> > > > > > > > > > > cheap in

> > > > > > > > > > > > > the slightest, where is this money going or into

> > whose

> > > > > > > > > pockets?

> > > > > > > > > > > I am

> > > > > > > > > > > > > concerned this could just be a way to make money

> for

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > board.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Julie

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine

> > > > > > > > > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For

> > > > > > > > > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> > > > > > > > > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> > > > > > > > > > > > kbartlett@

> > > > > > > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine

> > > > > > > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For

> > > > > > > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> > > > > > > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> > > > > > > > > > kbartlett@

> > > > > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

> > > > > > > > > >

September 16, 2007

Kath,

Don't quote me because I am not 100% sure, but I do not think Randine--

is actively in practice. I believe she is only doing her seminars and

writing. This may explain why you can't find an office for her.

David K

- In Chinese Medicine , " Kath Bartlett, MS,

LAc " wrote:

>

> thanks. i was surprised to learn that she randine is practicing

here. the

> new yellow pages came out in july, and she's not listed. i've

visied her

> website in the past 2-3 mos, and didn't notice a reference about an

> asheville office. where in asheville is she located? i may want to

refer

> to her.

>

> k

>

September 16, 2007

I recently contacted Randine Lewis (1 and 1/2 months ago) as I was looking for

someone

to assist a Ft Worth, Tx resident with an IVF, and she emailed me that she is no

longer

practiicng, only doing retreats in NC. with women interested in becoming

pregnant. I

think her website has a flyer on her retreats.

Thanks Kath for the articulate and thoughtful, long clarification. Appreciate

your time,

sentiments and open attitude. We are all just trying to understand what the

ramifications

and consequences might be. And we do have some experence to look back on to

evaluate

it with legitimate concerns. Having worked with a number of acupuncture and

medical

boards and associations, assuming that all involved are acting in the best

interests of our

profession is not warranted. Humans have a variety of motivations, and sometimes

confliciting drives. Some seen and known, some not seen and sometiems unkown to

the

person themselves. Being challenged and having to justify your position is part

and parcel

of taking a position of authority and responsiblity. Becasue one takes a

position of

authority, doesn't not equal having good vision and foresight.

Laura Cooley

Chinese Medicine , " "

wrote:

>

> thanks. i was surprised to learn that she randine is practicing here. the

> new yellow pages came out in july, and she's not listed. i've visied her

> website in the past 2-3 mos, and didn't notice a reference about an

> asheville office. where in asheville is she located? i may want to refer

> to her.

>

> k

>

> On 9/12/07, Gordon Mullins <gordon.mullins wrote:

> >

> > I'll ask Randine for you.

> >

> > Gordon.

> >

September 18, 2007

laura:

so true. thanks you for your post and positive feedback.

k

On 9/16/07, linkocool <lauramon wrote:

>

> I recently contacted Randine Lewis (1 and 1/2 months ago) as I was

> looking for someone

> to assist a Ft Worth, Tx resident with an IVF, and she emailed me that she

> is no longer

> practiicng, only doing retreats in NC. with women interested in becoming

> pregnant. I

> think her website has a flyer on her retreats.

>

> Thanks Kath for the articulate and thoughtful, long clarification.

> Appreciate your time,

> sentiments and open attitude. We are all just trying to understand what

> the ramifications

> and consequences might be. And we do have some experence to look back on

> to evaluate

> it with legitimate concerns. Having worked with a number of acupuncture

> and medical

> boards and associations, assuming that all involved are acting in the best

> interests of our

> profession is not warranted. Humans have a variety of motivations, and

> sometimes

> confliciting drives. Some seen and known, some not seen and sometiems

> unkown to the

> person themselves. Being challenged and having to justify your position is

> part and parcel

> of taking a position of authority and responsiblity. Becasue one takes a

> position of

> authority, doesn't not equal having good vision and foresight.

>

> Laura Cooley

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " "

> wrote:

> >

> > thanks. i was surprised to learn that she randine is practicing here.

> the

> > new yellow pages came out in july, and she's not listed. i've visied her

> > website in the past 2-3 mos, and didn't notice a reference about an

> > asheville office. where in asheville is she located? i may want to refer

> > to her.

> >

> > k

> >

> > On 9/12/07, Gordon Mullins <gordon.mullins wrote:

> > >

> > > I'll ask Randine for you.

> > >

> > > Gordon.

> > >

>

--

Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

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