ABORM Questions

[Guest guest]

I happen to think that these are important questions and beg to the issues

of transparency and ownership after all aren't they asking for our support?Mike

W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

: acuprof:

Sat, 8 Sep 2007 20:45:08 +0000Re: ABORM Questions

 

 

 

 

David,Once again, we are in partial agreement. I also think that an open

discussion is wonderful, and that your questions are fair. However, your

questions are being asked within the context created by your earlier posts -

namely, that you do not support the process of the ABORM and that you are

against specialty boards. Within that context, these questions seem

inflammatory, and serve the purpose of " whipping up " public dissent more than

seeking actual information. What I am saying is that the ACTUAL answers to your

questions are probably readily available if you were to direct them to officials

of the organization. Because you chose to post those kinds of questions

rhetorically in a public forum (where actual answers are unlikely), instead of

directing them toward someone with the actual data you are asking about, it

suggests to me that the purpose of asking such things was more polemic than it

was earnest.Furthermore, if you (or others who so vocally oppose the ABORM) are

genuinely interested in the answers to such questions, I ask again - Why not do

your homework and get those questions answered BEFORE assuming the worst and

using rhetorical scare tactics to propogate your anti-ABORM agenda?David

KarchmerChinese Medicine ,

" flyingstarsfengshui " <flyingstarsfengshui wrote:>> Good Morning David:> >

I actually think having an open discussion on this topic is > wonderful, not

private dialogue. If an organization publically > promotes their exam and

presents its benefits then its all public. I > thnk all my questions are very

basic, fair and normal due process, > especially if I'm going to spend around

$1,000.> > I would love to hear responses to our questions here, lets use this >

open forum to fully understand the Certificate and how it will be > used and how

non-certified Licensed Practitioners will need to > respond to it to the public

and healthcare community.> > I do think how Certification is marketed has

consequences for each > of us in our profession, why would any practitioner

support > something without knowing the details and possible ramifications. > >

I'm am ready and willing to listen.> > Thanks for your participation and best

wishes,> > David>

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Gear up for Halo® 3 with free downloads and an exclusive offer. It’s our way of

saying thanks for using Windows Live™.

http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_WLHMTxt_2

 

 

[Guest guest]

Mike,

 

I'll ask you the same thing I asked David and Kath:

 

If you feel these are important questions, why don't you pose them

to the people who are able to answer them?

 

Like I said before, I do not question the value or validity of these

types of questions. But if people want these questions answered, I

just wonder why they are being rhetorically cast over the internet

instead being directed to the officials who are actually capable of

providing the answers.

 

This is one of the main problems I have with the attacks on the

ABORM; a lot of the charges being levied are either baseless,

speculative, or just plain wrong. Many of the specific answers are

available, but some of the critics of the ABORM prefer to speculate

and blog about the nature of their concerns instead of checking to

find out if they are genuinely founded.

 

David Karchmer

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

> I happen to think that these are important questions and beg to

the issues

> of transparency and ownership after all aren't they asking for our

support?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

>

> : acuprof: Sat, 8 Sep 2007

20:45:08 +0000Re: ABORM Questions

>

>

>

>

> David,Once again, we are in partial agreement. I also think that

an open discussion is wonderful, and that your questions are fair.

However, your questions are being asked within the context created

by your earlier posts - namely, that you do not support the process

of the ABORM and that you are against specialty boards. Within that

context, these questions seem inflammatory, and serve the purpose

of " whipping up " public dissent more than seeking actual

information. What I am saying is that the ACTUAL answers to your

questions are probably readily available if you were to direct them

to officials of the organization. Because you chose to post those

kinds of questions rhetorically in a public forum (where actual

answers are unlikely), instead of directing them toward someone with

the actual data you are asking about, it suggests to me that the

purpose of asking such things was more polemic than it was

earnest.Furthermore, if you (or others who so vocally oppose the

ABORM) are genuinely interested in the answers to such questions, I

ask again - Why not do your homework and get those questions

answered BEFORE assuming the worst and using rhetorical scare

tactics to propogate your anti-ABORM agenda?David Karchmer--- In

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

<flyingstarsfengshui@> wrote:>> Good Morning David:> > I actually

think having an open discussion on this topic is > wonderful, not

private dialogue. If an organization publically > promotes their

exam and presents its benefits then its all public. I > thnk all my

questions are very basic, fair and normal due process, > especially

if I'm going to spend around $1,000.> > I would love to hear

responses to our questions here, lets use this > open forum to fully

understand the Certificate and how it will be > used and how non-

certified Licensed Practitioners will need to > respond to it to the

public and healthcare community.> > I do think how Certification is

marketed has consequences for each > of us in our profession, why

would any practitioner support > something without knowing the

details and possible ramifications. > > I'm am ready and willing to

listen.> > Thanks for your participation and best wishes,> > David>

_______________

> Gear up for Halo? 3 with free downloads and an exclusive offer. It?

s our way of saying thanks for using Windows Live?.

> http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_WLHMTxt_2

>

>

[Guest guest]

OK David,

 

I will let your message be your request. I only hope that as a result

of posting it on this internet message board that a red siren will

magically go off in Ray Rubio's office so that he will know that you

have done so, or perhaps he will just mystically intuit as much and

know to log on and respond.

 

 

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

<flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> Hi David:

>

> Let this message be my request for ABORM to answer our questions and

> address our concerns " here " for our profession and community to see

> and understand and respond.

>

> Best Wishes,

>

> David

>

[Guest guest]

Julie,

 

ABORM offers certification in Reproductive Oriental Medicine, not

women's health at large. The focus is on the diagnosis and treatment

of both men's and women's health in the context of fertility and

reproduction.

 

For more specific information, go to

 

www.aborm.org

 

At the bottom of the homepage, you will find a ppt (power point)

that describes the Board's mission, purpose, and vision.

 

David Karchmer

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Julie Ormonde,

L.Ac. " <cariadanam wrote:

>

> One last question - ABORM seems focused on fertility, is this true

or does it span women's health?

> Julie

>

>

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Julie Ormonde,

L.Ac. " <cariadanam wrote:

>

> What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not

cheap in the slightest, where is this money going or into whose

pockets? I am concerned this could just be a way to make money for

the board.

> Julie

>

>

[Guest guest]

David,

Sorry to bug you about this but you seemed to be very intelligent

on the ABORM and thought that you might want to know these

answers as well and you might have an inside on getting this info.Mike W.

Bowser, L Ac

 

 

: acuprof:

Sun, 9 Sep 2007 01:18:56 +0000Re: ABORM Questions

 

 

 

 

Mike,I'll ask you the same thing I asked David and Kath:If you feel these are

important questions, why don't you pose them to the people who are able to

answer them?Like I said before, I do not question the value or validity of these

types of questions. But if people want these questions answered, I just wonder

why they are being rhetorically cast over the internet instead being directed to

the officials who are actually capable of providing the answers.This is one of

the main problems I have with the attacks on the ABORM; a lot of the charges

being levied are either baseless, speculative, or just plain wrong. Many of the

specific answers are available, but some of the critics of the ABORM prefer to

speculate and blog about the nature of their concerns instead of checking to

find out if they are genuinely founded.David Karchmer--- In

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

wrote:>> I happen to think that these are important questions and beg to the

issues> of transparency and ownership after all aren't they asking for our

support?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac> > > :

acuprof: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 20:45:08 +0000Re: ABORM Questions> >

> > > David,Once again, we are in partial agreement. I also think that an open

discussion is wonderful, and that your questions are fair. However, your

questions are being asked within the context created by your earlier posts -

namely, that you do not support the process of the ABORM and that you are

against specialty boards. Within that context, these questions seem

inflammatory, and serve the purpose of " whipping up " public dissent more than

seeking actual information. What I am saying is that the ACTUAL answers to your

questions are probably readily available if you were to direct them to officials

of the organization. Because you chose to post those kinds of questions

rhetorically in a public forum (where actual answers are unlikely), instead of

directing them toward someone with the actual data you are asking about, it

suggests to me that the purpose of asking such things was more polemic than it

was earnest.Furthermore, if you (or others who so vocally oppose the ABORM) are

genuinely interested in the answers to such questions, I ask again - Why not do

your homework and get those questions answered BEFORE assuming the worst and

using rhetorical scare tactics to propogate your anti-ABORM agenda?David

KarchmerChinese Medicine ,

" flyingstarsfengshui " <flyingstarsfengshui@> wrote:>> Good Morning David:> > I

actually think having an open discussion on this topic is > wonderful, not

private dialogue. If an organization publically > promotes their exam and

presents its benefits then its all public. I > thnk all my questions are very

basic, fair and normal due process, > especially if I'm going to spend around

$1,000.> > I would love to hear responses to our questions here, lets use this >

open forum to fully understand the Certificate and how it will be > used and how

non-certified Licensed Practitioners will need to > respond to it to the public

and healthcare community.> > I do think how Certification is marketed has

consequences for each > of us in our profession, why would any practitioner

support > something without knowing the details and possible ramifications. > >

I'm am ready and willing to listen.> > Thanks for your participation and best

wishes,> > David> > > > > > > >

________> Gear up for Halo? 3

with free downloads and an exclusive offer. It?s our way of saying thanks for

using Windows Live?.> http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_WLHMTxt_2> >

 

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

 

I'm not sure how much experience you have in treating fertility based cases.

I work exclusively as mentioned before treating fertility. And I have to say

my experience to date is of true horror of some of the treatments my

patients have received from fellow Acupuncturists who don't have training in

this area.

 

Treating fertility in my opinion is in itself a new medicine. It requires an

extremely good knowledge of TCM, but an equal understanding of the Western

ART system.

 

Its not like treating a head ache where the patient feels 50% better, there

really is only one result with patients who are TTC.

 

Have you ever meet Dr Randine Lewis or Jane Lyttleton? Have you read their

books. If you haven't I think you should. I think you would have a very

different perspective on this then.

 

I know that specialty boards seem to be a sore point with some, but at the

end of the day, if it makes us better practioneers for our patients then it

can only be good. We are here for our paients not for politics.

 

Equally respectful,

 

Gordon.

 

On 9/9/07, heidiirwin <heidiirwin wrote:

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " Julie Ormonde,

> L.Ac. " <cariadanam wrote:

> >

> > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not

> cheap in the slightest, where is this money going or into whose

> pockets? I am concerned this could just be a way to make money for

> the board.

> > Julie

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Gordon, could you give us some horror stories? Examples, I am sure, would be

helpful.

 

Hugo

 

 

Gordon Mullins <gordon.mullins

Chinese Medicine

Monday, 10 September, 2007 12:14:39 AM

Re: Re: ABORM Questions

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Heidi,

 

 

 

I'm not sure how much experience you have in treating fertility based cases.

 

I work exclusively as mentioned before treating fertility. And I have to say

 

my experience to date is of true horror of some of the treatments my

 

patients have received from fellow Acupuncturists who don't have training in

 

this area.

 

 

 

Treating fertility in my opinion is in itself a new medicine. It requires an

 

extremely good knowledge of TCM, but an equal understanding of the Western

 

ART system.

 

 

 

Its not like treating a head ache where the patient feels 50% better, there

 

really is only one result with patients who are TTC.

 

 

 

Have you ever meet Dr Randine Lewis or Jane Lyttleton? Have you read their

 

books. If you haven't I think you should. I think you would have a very

 

different perspective on this then.

 

 

 

I know that specialty boards seem to be a sore point with some, but at the

 

end of the day, if it makes us better practioneers for our patients then it

 

can only be good. We are here for our paients not for politics.

 

 

 

Equally respectful,

 

 

 

Gordon.

 

 

 

On 9/9/07, heidiirwin <heidiirwin@sbcgloba l.net> wrote:

 

>

 

> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>,

 

> " Julie Ormonde,

 

> L.Ac. " <cariadanam@ ...> wrote:

 

> >

 

> > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not

 

> cheap in the slightest, where is this money going or into whose

 

> pockets? I am concerned this could just be a way to make money for

 

> the board.

 

> > Julie

 

> >

 

> >

[Guest guest]

Hugo,

 

I'm glad to hear from you this morning. I was just thinking about

you and about the fact that you have not replied to any of the posts

I've directed to you. You have also not addressed any of my

responses to the posts you have directed toward me.

 

Care to comment?

 

David Karchmer

Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

<subincor wrote:

>

> Hi Gordon, could you give us some horror stories? Examples, I am

sure, would be helpful.

>

> Hugo

>

>

> Gordon Mullins <gordon.mullins

> Chinese Medicine

> Monday, 10 September, 2007 12:14:39 AM

> Re: Re: ABORM Questions

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

Heidi,

>

>

>

> I'm not sure how much experience you have in treating fertility

based cases.

>

> I work exclusively as mentioned before treating fertility. And I

have to say

>

> my experience to date is of true horror of some of the treatments

my

>

> patients have received from fellow Acupuncturists who don't have

training in

>

> this area.

>

>

>

> Treating fertility in my opinion is in itself a new medicine. It

requires an

>

> extremely good knowledge of TCM, but an equal understanding of the

Western

>

> ART system.

>

>

>

> Its not like treating a head ache where the patient feels 50%

better, there

>

> really is only one result with patients who are TTC.

>

>

>

> Have you ever meet Dr Randine Lewis or Jane Lyttleton? Have you

read their

>

> books. If you haven't I think you should. I think you would have

a very

>

> different perspective on this then.

>

>

>

> I know that specialty boards seem to be a sore point with some,

but at the

>

> end of the day, if it makes us better practioneers for our

patients then it

>

> can only be good. We are here for our paients not for politics.

>

>

>

> Equally respectful,

>

>

>

> Gordon.

>

>

>

> On 9/9/07, heidiirwin <heidiirwin@sbcgloba l.net> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>,

>

> > " Julie Ormonde,

>

> > L.Ac. " <cariadanam@ ...> wrote:

>

> > >

>

> > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not

>

> > cheap in the slightest, where is this money going or into whose

>

> > pockets? I am concerned this could just be a way to make money

for

>

> > the board.

>

> > > Julie

>

> > >

>

> > >

[Guest guest]

David,

 

I want to clarify two things before addressing your latest post.

 

First, I want to make it clear that I have a vested interest in the

outcome of the ABORM process, but I am not an official of the ABORM

and I am not a member of the board. Therefore, all of my views and

comments are my own and do not represent official board policy.

 

Secondly, I think that you have posed (and continue to pose) some

very interesting and valid questions. But as someone who is taking a

very vocal stand in this matter, it does not appear to me that you

are doing due diligence to actually get your questions answered.

 

Have you contacted the ABORM to get your questions answered?

 

If not, why? If you are genuinely interested in the nuts and bolts

of the Board and the certification process, why do you keep posting

rhetorical questions on the internet and continue to promote

doomsday predictions instead of taking a few minutes to write a

letter directly to those who have the ability to answer you?

 

I know that you think that this should be a " public " discussion, but

one must at least invite his opponent to the party if you want to

call it a debate.

 

If you are asking your questions in earnest, here is a suggestion

for how to start your next post:

 

" Dear TCM community,

 

You'll be pleased to know that I contacted Ray Rubio, president of

the ABORM with a list of questions that I know are important to you

all, and here is what he had to say........................ "

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

<flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> Hi Hugo:

>

> I would like to hear these horror stories too, in detail. If they

> are true this is a compentency problem and a license problem.

>

> Its my feeling too often we accept claims. Is there written

> literature of the Experts on this ABORM, the exact strategies,

> diagnosis, treatment plans, points, herbs, etc. that they use in

> clinic so we can see how what it is they are doing, it is possible

> they are just using the basics.

>

> Is it wise to just accept claimed expertise? I generally would not

> concern myself but since they want to set the industry standard

with

> ceritfication that can have signinficant influence in our industry

> its important we find this out.

>

> It seems they are recommending books to read and know, and I

suppose

> they are making up a test based on book knowledge. So if anybody

has

> this specfic info please let us all know so we as licenced

> practioners can judge whether they have advanced knoweldge and not

> just book knowledge.

>

> Thanks,

>

> David

Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

> <subincor@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Gordon, could you give us some horror stories? Examples, I

am

> sure, would be helpful.

> >

> > Hugo

> >

> >

> > Gordon Mullins <gordon.mullins@>

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Monday, 10 September, 2007 12:14:39 AM

> > Re: Re: ABORM Questions

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Heidi,

> >

> >

> >

> > I'm not sure how much experience you have in treating fertility

> based cases.

> >

> > I work exclusively as mentioned before treating fertility. And I

> have to say

> >

> > my experience to date is of true horror of some of the

treatments

> my

> >

> > patients have received from fellow Acupuncturists who don't have

> training in

> >

> > this area.

> >

> >

> >

> > Treating fertility in my opinion is in itself a new medicine. It

> requires an

> >

> > extremely good knowledge of TCM, but an equal understanding of

the

> Western

> >

> > ART system.

> >

> >

> >

> > Its not like treating a head ache where the patient feels 50%

> better, there

> >

> > really is only one result with patients who are TTC.

> >

> >

> >

> > Have you ever meet Dr Randine Lewis or Jane Lyttleton? Have you

> read their

> >

> > books. If you haven't I think you should. I think you would

have

> a very

> >

> > different perspective on this then.

> >

> >

> >

> > I know that specialty boards seem to be a sore point with some,

> but at the

> >

> > end of the day, if it makes us better practioneers for our

> patients then it

> >

> > can only be good. We are here for our paients not for politics.

> >

> >

> >

> > Equally respectful,

> >

> >

> >

> > Gordon.

> >

> >

> >

> > On 9/9/07, heidiirwin <heidiirwin@sbcgloba l.net> wrote:

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

> com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>,

> >

> > > " Julie Ormonde,

> >

> > > L.Ac. " <cariadanam@ ...> wrote:

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is

not

> >

> > > cheap in the slightest, where is this money going or into whose

> >

> > > pockets? I am concerned this could just be a way to make money

> for

> >

> > > the board.

> >

> > > > Julie

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

David,

 

Of course you are free to voice your opinion in any way you choose.

 

However, since this message board is not an official channel of

communication for the ABORM, and since you do not wish to ask

quesitons directly to the officers of the ABORM, I will have to

assume that your questions are meant to be rhetorical and polemical,

and are not earnestly asked with the intent of getting real answers.

 

David Karchmer

 

 

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

<flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> Hi David:

>

> Well thanks for your advise, I have been around for awhile and can

> decide how I want to address this issue. Thanks for passing the

> information on to ABORM, much appreciated and now they have the

> oppurtunity to directly address our community, hopefully we can

have

> an informative and meangingful dialogue.

>

> As participants in the TCM community we have the right to actively

> engage in the unfolding of our industry, this type of forum allows

us

> to communicate on a larger scale and not be isolated and limited

by

> resources. I suggest all people be active in this and future

issues,

> regardless of what view one has, in a way we can influence our

> profession, yes each of us practitioners is an important part of

this

> profession and if we choose can participant in guding it.

>

> Best Wishes,

>

> David

>

[Guest guest]

Hugo,

 

As mentioned previously, I am practicing in Ireland, and have no

understanding of how the American system of Licensing works. I am only

aware of the irish system. And like everything in life, there are good and

bad points. For example, it is possible to go to Asia and do a 2-3 month

course in acupuncture come back with a paid cert, join one of the

organizations and hey presto. You can practice... Medical doctors after an 8

week course can do acupuncture. So very different to the US.

 

Horror stories include Acupuncturists who don't know the difference between:

 

- Luteal Phase and Follecular phases. Or even what day ovulation is, the

signs and symptoms to look out for when you ovulate, or the different

cervical mucus types showing ovulation.

- Cycle lengths of a period, a 28 day cycle, or 25 day cycle or 50 day

cycle, and the reasons why this is happening.

- The difference between progesterone and estrogene and how they influence

fertility.

- What the different fertility drugs do to the body in a western and TCM

terms, ie Clomid.

- What an IUI is, different reasons for 3 or 5 day transfers during IVF or

ICSI.

- How to treat a patient who has had 3 - 5 recurrent miscarriages, where

the patient has never een a heart beat and know what TCM patterns are the

cause for this. Or why miscarriage can happen on week 10 or week 12 or week

22. And telling a patient these things happen. Or keep trying, statically

your get pregnant eventually. Would you wish for your sister or wife to be

treated by this type of Acupuncturist who says they specialise and treat

fertility problems.

 

These are just a but a few that I have seen in the last few months. And I

know I am going to hear, well we are not western based we are TCM. But this

is basic stuff, and if people don't know the basics, then shame on you for

telling people you treat fertility, you are doing you patient a dis-service.

 

 

I have heard a few people talk about the cost, in the last 2-3 years I have

gladly spent between 15,000 to 20,000 dollars educating myself by traveling

all over the world (Canada, United States, United Kingdom, Portugal) to

train and learn from in my view the most amazing and knowledgeable

fertility specialists, and I have brought this knowledge back to my clinic

and then to my patients. So to me 1000 dollars, if it enhances your clinic

and helps you to facilitate the creation of one life for a couple is not a

cost. As I said before we are here for our patients not politics. BTW 60% of

my current patients are pregnant, out of the last 18 pregnancies we have had

one bad experience of a miscarriage that we could do nothing to help.

Current rates of miscarriage in Ireland are that 1 in 5 pregnancies will

miscarry.

 

Learn from the best, strive to be the best and live life in every breath.

 

Cheers,

 

Gordon.

 

On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof wrote:

>

> David,

>

> Of course you are free to voice your opinion in any way you choose.

>

> However, since this message board is not an official channel of

> communication for the ABORM, and since you do not wish to ask

> quesitons directly to the officers of the ABORM, I will have to

> assume that your questions are meant to be rhetorical and polemical,

> and are not earnestly asked with the intent of getting real answers.

>

> David Karchmer

>

> --- In

>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " flyingstarsfengshui "

> <flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

> >

> > Hi David:

> >

> > Well thanks for your advise, I have been around for awhile and can

> > decide how I want to address this issue. Thanks for passing the

> > information on to ABORM, much appreciated and now they have the

> > oppurtunity to directly address our community, hopefully we can

> have

> > an informative and meangingful dialogue.

> >

> > As participants in the TCM community we have the right to actively

> > engage in the unfolding of our industry, this type of forum allows

> us

> > to communicate on a larger scale and not be isolated and limited

> by

> > resources. I suggest all people be active in this and future

> issues,

> > regardless of what view one has, in a way we can influence our

> > profession, yes each of us practitioners is an important part of

> this

> > profession and if we choose can participant in guding it.

> >

> > Best Wishes,

> >

> > David

> >

>

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

David,

 

I really am not sure why you make such comments like:

 

' I would like to hear these horror stories too, in detail. If they are

true this is a compentency problem and a license problem. '

 

'if they are true' - what are you trying to imply.

 

Do you believe just because we practice TCM that there can not be horror

stories out there. We are human and like western doctors, we all know some

good ones, but equally we have heard about bad western doctors. I know some

amazing acupuncturists but I also know of some extremely poor ones too.....

 

And David, I completely agree with you, it is the basics we use, the problem

is not alot of people do not know the basics.... As I mentioned...

 

And whether it be advanced knowledge, book knowledge, or experienced

knowledge, it is knowledge, and if it helps you to help you patient then

what is the problem. By the way, the people involved have written the books,

so it is then knowledge from their experience.

 

One final question, have you read any of the books? If you had, I don't

think you would question any of this.

 

Gordon.

 

On 9/10/07, flyingstarsfengshui <flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> Hi Hugo:

>

> I would like to hear these horror stories too, in detail. If they

> are true this is a compentency problem and a license problem.

>

> Its my feeling too often we accept claims. Is there written

> literature of the Experts on this ABORM, the exact strategies,

> diagnosis, treatment plans, points, herbs, etc. that they use in

> clinic so we can see how what it is they are doing, it is possible

> they are just using the basics.

>

> Is it wise to just accept claimed expertise? I generally would not

> concern myself but since they want to set the industry standard with

> ceritfication that can have signinficant influence in our industry

> its important we find this out.

>

> It seems they are recommending books to read and know, and I suppose

> they are making up a test based on book knowledge. So if anybody has

> this specfic info please let us all know so we as licenced

> practioners can judge whether they have advanced knoweldge and not

> just book knowledge.

>

> Thanks,

>

> David

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> Hugo Ramiro

> <subincor wrote:

> >

> > Hi Gordon, could you give us some horror stories? Examples, I am

> sure, would be helpful.

> >

> > Hugo

> >

> >

> > Gordon Mullins <gordon.mullins

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > Monday, 10 September, 2007 12:14:39 AM

> > Re: Re: ABORM Questions

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Heidi,

> >

> >

> >

> > I'm not sure how much experience you have in treating fertility

> based cases.

> >

> > I work exclusively as mentioned before treating fertility. And I

> have to say

> >

> > my experience to date is of true horror of some of the treatments

> my

> >

> > patients have received from fellow Acupuncturists who don't have

> training in

> >

> > this area.

> >

> >

> >

> > Treating fertility in my opinion is in itself a new medicine. It

> requires an

> >

> > extremely good knowledge of TCM, but an equal understanding of the

> Western

> >

> > ART system.

> >

> >

> >

> > Its not like treating a head ache where the patient feels 50%

> better, there

> >

> > really is only one result with patients who are TTC.

> >

> >

> >

> > Have you ever meet Dr Randine Lewis or Jane Lyttleton? Have you

> read their

> >

> > books. If you haven't I think you should. I think you would have

> a very

> >

> > different perspective on this then.

> >

> >

> >

> > I know that specialty boards seem to be a sore point with some,

> but at the

> >

> > end of the day, if it makes us better practioneers for our

> patients then it

> >

> > can only be good. We are here for our paients not for politics.

> >

> >

> >

> > Equally respectful,

> >

> >

> >

> > Gordon.

> >

> >

> >

> > On 9/9/07, heidiirwin <heidiirwin@sbcgloba l.net> wrote:

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

> com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>,

> >

> > > " Julie Ormonde,

> >

> > > L.Ac. " <cariadanam@ ...> wrote:

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not

> >

> > > cheap in the slightest, where is this money going or into whose

> >

> > > pockets? I am concerned this could just be a way to make money

> for

> >

> > > the board.

> >

> > > > Julie

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

I contacted ABORM through their website and got an email back from Ray

Rubio. He discusses some questions that were raised here, as well as some

that I had. Anyway, thought others might be interested.

 

 

 

<<<Sean -

 

 

 

Thanks for you interest in the ABORM. I will try to answer your questions as

thoroughly as possible.

 

 

 

1. The ABORM specifically avoided offering training courses linked to the

exam as this is an inherent conflict of interest. In other words, if someone

is offering training courses leading to a certification, it is in that

instructor's interest to make sure that everyone passes the certification

exam, or people will stop signing up for the courses. This is why, for

example, the NCCAOM exam is separate from the training (acupuncture school),

and not everyone who completes acupuncture school goes on to pass the exam

and practice. You should also note that the ABORM is a non-profit, and not

run by any individual. Every penny earned goes back into serving the public

and the profession.

 

 

 

The ABORM also spent the last three years having Board Members go around the

USA and Canada to attend and evaluate all of the CEU courses being offered

related to reproductive medicine, obgyn, and urology/male factor. We did

this to make sure that our exam was reflective of what was being taught and

offered at these courses, and we determined that there were no shortage of

courses and training related to infertility - from beginning to advanced.

What was missing, was some sort of evaluation tool that someone who wished

to demonstrate competency might avail themselves of if they wanted to call

themselves a specialist in infertility.

 

 

 

2. Although website lists the reference texts and categories of competency

only briefly, a more detailed exam study guide is mailed out with every

aborm registrant's acceptance letter.

 

 

 

3. The requirements for maintaining the specialty are 20 CEU's pertaining to

reproductive medicine every two years, and $200 to maintain membership.

These CEU's may be part of the aborm fellow's regular CEU requirement, or in

addition to them, it's up to the individual.

 

 

 

I hope this answers most of your questions, but please feel free to write

with any more,

 

 

 

Warmest regards,

 

 

 

Ray Rubio, D.A.O.M., L Ac.

 

President ABORM>>>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

David, what are you talking about? I have a job, and I also need my free time

on weekends when I can get it. You're so eager. Anyway, as much as I might love

to flood the board with my posts, I should be more demure. I will post on the

most important things and try to keep it to that only.

Hugo

 

 

David Karchmer <acuprof

Chinese Medicine

Monday, 10 September, 2007 8:55:17 AM

Re: ABORM Questions

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hugo,

 

 

 

I'm glad to hear from you this morning. I was just thinking about

 

you and about the fact that you have not replied to any of the posts

 

I've directed to you. You have also not addressed any of my

 

responses to the posts you have directed toward me.

 

 

 

Care to comment?

 

 

 

David Karchmer

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

 

<subincor@.. .> wrote:

 

>

 

> Hi Gordon, could you give us some horror stories? Examples, I am

 

sure, would be helpful.

 

>

 

> Hugo

 

>

 

>

 

> Gordon Mullins <gordon.mullins@ ...>

 

>

 

> Monday, 10 September, 2007 12:14:39 AM

 

> Re: Re: ABORM Questions

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Heidi,

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> I'm not sure how much experience you have in treating fertility

 

based cases.

 

>

 

> I work exclusively as mentioned before treating fertility. And I

 

have to say

 

>

 

> my experience to date is of true horror of some of the treatments

 

my

 

>

 

> patients have received from fellow Acupuncturists who don't have

 

training in

 

>

 

> this area.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Treating fertility in my opinion is in itself a new medicine. It

 

requires an

 

>

 

> extremely good knowledge of TCM, but an equal understanding of the

 

Western

 

>

 

> ART system.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Its not like treating a head ache where the patient feels 50%

 

better, there

 

>

 

> really is only one result with patients who are TTC.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Have you ever meet Dr Randine Lewis or Jane Lyttleton? Have you

 

read their

 

>

 

> books. If you haven't I think you should. I think you would have

 

a very

 

>

 

> different perspective on this then.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> I know that specialty boards seem to be a sore point with some,

 

but at the

 

>

 

> end of the day, if it makes us better practioneers for our

 

patients then it

 

>

 

> can only be good. We are here for our paients not for politics.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Equally respectful,

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Gordon.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> On 9/9/07, heidiirwin <heidiirwin@ sbcgloba l.net> wrote:

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

 

com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>,

 

>

 

> > " Julie Ormonde,

 

>

 

> > L.Ac. " <cariadanam@ ...> wrote:

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not

 

>

 

> > cheap in the slightest, where is this money going or into whose

 

>

 

> > pockets? I am concerned this could just be a way to make money

 

for

 

>

 

> > the board.

 

>

 

> > > Julie

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hey...I thought we agreed to go Western and spell out our acronyms

from now on! (ART = Assisted Reproductive Technology, TTC = Trying to

Conceive, right?)

I'm a new practitioner, which is why I follow this group with

interest but rarely post. I'm here to learn from more experienced

people. I realize my education has just begun, and I read everything

I can (I have read Lyttleton, now Lewis is on my list). I have

closely followed this discussion, and I'm still forming my opinion on

ABORM and other specialty groups. I just felt the need to mention the

influence of money, to which our noble profession is not immune.

Please continue the discussion, as it helps me with my TTLS (Trying

to Learn Syndrome)!

 

Heidi Irwin, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine , " Gordon Mullins "

<gordon.mullins wrote:

>

> Heidi,

>

> I'm not sure how much experience you have in treating fertility

based cases.

> I work exclusively as mentioned before treating fertility. And I

have to say

> my experience to date is of true horror of some of the treatments my

> patients have received from fellow Acupuncturists who don't have

training in

> this area.

>

> Treating fertility in my opinion is in itself a new medicine. It

requires an

> extremely good knowledge of TCM, but an equal understanding of the

Western

> ART system.

>

> Its not like treating a head ache where the patient feels 50%

better, there

> really is only one result with patients who are TTC.

>

> Have you ever meet Dr Randine Lewis or Jane Lyttleton? Have you

read their

> books. If you haven't I think you should. I think you would have a

very

> different perspective on this then.

>

> I know that specialty boards seem to be a sore point with some, but

at the

> end of the day, if it makes us better practioneers for our patients

then it

> can only be good. We are here for our paients not for politics.

>

> Equally respectful,

>

> Gordon.

>

> On 9/9/07, heidiirwin <heidiirwin wrote:

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medic

ine%40>,

> > " Julie Ormonde,

> > L.Ac. " <cariadanam@> wrote:

> > >

> > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not

> > cheap in the slightest, where is this money going or into whose

> > pockets? I am concerned this could just be a way to make money for

> > the board.

> > > Julie

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I think ABORM should focus instead on providing quality CEUs than

trying to certify people. I personally have studied with 3 of the

ABORM staff and my question is why should a practitioner (I don't

necissarily mean me) who already has a successful practice treating

women ( & men) for infertility, now have to shell out loads of money to

be certified by people they may have no connection to? How about all

those Chinese practitioners from mainland China that come over here,

with more training than most of us? Why should they have to fit in

some mold that is being imposed upon them? If the practitioner is

already confident in their skills, why should s/he have to then

recertify with ABORM? Why all this insanity trying to control a

market, telling the public if they dont' go to a " certified "

acu/herb " dr " they're not getting quality care? I mean, even new

graduates, presented with a patient for ANYTHING, may have success

treating it. Or not. It's part of growing in your practice. The Tao Te

Ching basically says let people alone; don't try to impose laws upon

them. ABORM is trying to set up a structure that I don't believe fits

with the TCM model.

[Guest guest]

: -)

 

Haven't seen that agreement.... But good point...

 

Gordon.

 

On 9/10/07, heidiirwin <heidiirwin wrote:

>

> Hey...I thought we agreed to go Western and spell out our acronyms

> from now on! (ART = Assisted Reproductive Technology, TTC = Trying to

> Conceive, right?)

> I'm a new practitioner, which is why I follow this group with

> interest but rarely post. I'm here to learn from more experienced

> people. I realize my education has just begun, and I read everything

> I can (I have read Lyttleton, now Lewis is on my list). I have

> closely followed this discussion, and I'm still forming my opinion on

> ABORM and other specialty groups. I just felt the need to mention the

> influence of money, to which our noble profession is not immune.

> Please continue the discussion, as it helps me with my TTLS (Trying

> to Learn Syndrome)!

>

> Heidi Irwin, LAc

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " Gordon Mullins "

>

> <gordon.mullins wrote:

> >

> > Heidi,

> >

> > I'm not sure how much experience you have in treating fertility

> based cases.

> > I work exclusively as mentioned before treating fertility. And I

> have to say

> > my experience to date is of true horror of some of the treatments my

> > patients have received from fellow Acupuncturists who don't have

> training in

> > this area.

> >

> > Treating fertility in my opinion is in itself a new medicine. It

> requires an

> > extremely good knowledge of TCM, but an equal understanding of the

> Western

> > ART system.

> >

> > Its not like treating a head ache where the patient feels 50%

> better, there

> > really is only one result with patients who are TTC.

> >

> > Have you ever meet Dr Randine Lewis or Jane Lyttleton? Have you

> read their

> > books. If you haven't I think you should. I think you would have a

> very

> > different perspective on this then.

> >

> > I know that specialty boards seem to be a sore point with some, but

> at the

> > end of the day, if it makes us better practioneers for our patients

> then it

> > can only be good. We are here for our paients not for politics.

> >

> > Equally respectful,

> >

> > Gordon.

> >

> > On 9/9/07, heidiirwin <heidiirwin wrote:

> > >

> > > --- In

>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Traditional_Chinese_Medic

> ine%40>,

> > > " Julie Ormonde,

> > > L.Ac. " <cariadanam@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not

> > > cheap in the slightest, where is this money going or into whose

> > > pockets? I am concerned this could just be a way to make money for

> > > the board.

> > > > Julie

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Julie,

 

one of the posts from last week pointed out that not-for-profit just means

they run at break-even. but this doesn't preclude paying the board members,

so presumably the money is going to pay the board members, costs of

administering the exam & printing those $1,000 certificates, and any

advertising costs.

 

i agree it smacks of a profitable money making venture for the board.

although i do not have reason to believe that the board members do not have

altruistic motives of advancing ORM, i do note that at least one board

member, randine lewis has been quite successful at turning a profit with

books, seminars and workshops for fertility patients, in other words,

capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive here. just noting

facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome for me.

 

kb

 

 

On 9/8/07, Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. <cariadanam wrote:

>

> What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not cheap in

> the slightest, where is this money going or into whose pockets? I am

> concerned this could just be a way to make money for the board.

> Julie

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kath,

 

Let me get this straight. You are citing as " Facts " something

that " 'smacks' of a profitable money making venture for the board, "

and money that is " 'presumably' going to pay the board members??? "

 

These are your facts? What you presume, and that which " smacks? "

 

I'll tell you what seems troublesome to me, the FACT that you are

CLEARLY making assumptions, but then go on to state that you " do not

mean to insinuate motive here. " And the fact that you then go on to

claim that you are " just noting facts " when you are doing nothing of

the kind.

 

As a non-profit the financial workings of the ABORM are designed to

be completely transparent.

 

I'll tell you the same thing I told David Twicken, if you want real

facts then do your homework. Write a letter to the board and ask

them for their financial protocols. Pick up the phone and call Ray

Rubio and tell him you are concerned and ask what kind f salary he

intends to draw.

 

But for goodness' sakes, stop posting your fear based assumptions as

data, and for REALLY GOODNESS' SAKES stop representing those

assumptions as facts!

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Kath Bartlett,

MS, LAc " wrote:

>

> Julie,

>

> one of the posts from last week pointed out that not-for-profit

just means

> they run at break-even. but this doesn't preclude paying the

board members,

> so presumably the money is going to pay the board members, costs of

> administering the exam & printing those $1,000 certificates, and

any

> advertising costs.

>

> i agree it smacks of a profitable money making venture for the

board.

> although i do not have reason to believe that the board members do

not have

> altruistic motives of advancing ORM, i do note that at least one

board

> member, randine lewis has been quite successful at turning a

profit with

> books, seminars and workshops for fertility patients, in other

words,

> capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive here.

just noting

> facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome for me.

>

> kb

>

>

> On 9/8/07, Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. <cariadanam wrote:

> >

> > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not

cheap in

> > the slightest, where is this money going or into whose pockets?

I am

> > concerned this could just be a way to make money for the board.

> > Julie

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

david:

 

just a suggestion: when you read an email that arouses your liver qi,

resist the temptation to hit reply and send immediately. rather, wait an

hour or even a day or two, breath, and chill out. and then decide if the

email requires a response. if so, you can then respond with less emotion.

(i try to follow this advice myself, although i admit, sometime i do hit

reply and send without pausing).

 

hope this helps,

 

kb

 

 

On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof wrote:

>

> Kath,

>

> Let me get this straight. You are citing as " Facts " something

> that " 'smacks' of a profitable money making venture for the board, "

> and money that is " 'presumably' going to pay the board members??? "

>

> These are your facts? What you presume, and that which " smacks? "

>

> I'll tell you what seems troublesome to me, the FACT that you are

> CLEARLY making assumptions, but then go on to state that you " do not

> mean to insinuate motive here. " And the fact that you then go on to

> claim that you are " just noting facts " when you are doing nothing of

> the kind.

>

> As a non-profit the financial workings of the ABORM are designed to

> be completely transparent.

>

> I'll tell you the same thing I told David Twicken, if you want real

> facts then do your homework. Write a letter to the board and ask

> them for their financial protocols. Pick up the phone and call Ray

> Rubio and tell him you are concerned and ask what kind f salary he

> intends to draw.

>

> But for goodness' sakes, stop posting your fear based assumptions as

> data, and for REALLY GOODNESS' SAKES stop representing those

> assumptions as facts!

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " Kath Bartlett,

> MS, LAc " wrote:

> >

> > Julie,

> >

> > one of the posts from last week pointed out that not-for-profit

> just means

> > they run at break-even. but this doesn't preclude paying the

> board members,

> > so presumably the money is going to pay the board members, costs of

> > administering the exam & printing those $1,000 certificates, and

> any

> > advertising costs.

> >

> > i agree it smacks of a profitable money making venture for the

> board.

> > although i do not have reason to believe that the board members do

> not have

> > altruistic motives of advancing ORM, i do note that at least one

> board

> > member, randine lewis has been quite successful at turning a

> profit with

> > books, seminars and workshops for fertility patients, in other

> words,

> > capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive here.

> just noting

> > facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome for me.

> >

> > kb

> >

> >

> > On 9/8/07, Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. <cariadanam wrote:

> > >

> > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not

> cheap in

> > > the slightest, where is this money going or into whose pockets?

> I am

> > > concerned this could just be a way to make money for the board.

> > > Julie

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Well Kath,

 

You're right. It irritates me. Because you are certainly not the

first to make negative assumptions about the financial motives of

the people involved with ABORM or Reproductive OM at large.

 

But, you are the first that I have seen who described those

assumptions as facts. And had you bothered to do so, you would have

been the first one to do any fact-checking before publishing your

assumptions all over the internet.

 

Now pass the GOD DAMNED Xiao Yao San!!!!

Chinese Medicine , " Kath Bartlett,

MS, LAc " wrote:

>

> david:

>

> just a suggestion: when you read an email that arouses your liver

qi,

> resist the temptation to hit reply and send immediately. rather,

wait an

> hour or even a day or two, breath, and chill out. and then decide

if the

> email requires a response. if so, you can then respond with less

emotion.

> (i try to follow this advice myself, although i admit, sometime i

do hit

> reply and send without pausing).

>

> hope this helps,

>

> kb

>

>

> On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof wrote:

> >

> > Kath,

> >

> > Let me get this straight. You are citing as " Facts " something

> > that " 'smacks' of a profitable money making venture for the

board, "

> > and money that is " 'presumably' going to pay the board

members??? "

> >

> > These are your facts? What you presume, and that which " smacks? "

> >

> > I'll tell you what seems troublesome to me, the FACT that you are

> > CLEARLY making assumptions, but then go on to state that you " do

not

> > mean to insinuate motive here. " And the fact that you then go on

to

> > claim that you are " just noting facts " when you are doing

nothing of

> > the kind.

> >

> > As a non-profit the financial workings of the ABORM are designed

to

> > be completely transparent.

> >

> > I'll tell you the same thing I told David Twicken, if you want

real

> > facts then do your homework. Write a letter to the board and ask

> > them for their financial protocols. Pick up the phone and call

Ray

> > Rubio and tell him you are concerned and ask what kind f salary

he

> > intends to draw.

> >

> > But for goodness' sakes, stop posting your fear based

assumptions as

> > data, and for REALLY GOODNESS' SAKES stop representing those

> > assumptions as facts!

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

cine%40>,

> > " Kath Bartlett,

> > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Julie,

> > >

> > > one of the posts from last week pointed out that not-for-profit

> > just means

> > > they run at break-even. but this doesn't preclude paying the

> > board members,

> > > so presumably the money is going to pay the board members,

costs of

> > > administering the exam & printing those $1,000 certificates,

and

> > any

> > > advertising costs.

> > >

> > > i agree it smacks of a profitable money making venture for the

> > board.

> > > although i do not have reason to believe that the board

members do

> > not have

> > > altruistic motives of advancing ORM, i do note that at least

one

> > board

> > > member, randine lewis has been quite successful at turning a

> > profit with

> > > books, seminars and workshops for fertility patients, in other

> > words,

> > > capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive here.

> > just noting

> > > facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome for me.

> > >

> > > kb

> > >

> > >

> > > On 9/8/07, Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. <cariadanam@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is

not

> > cheap in

> > > > the slightest, where is this money going or into whose

pockets?

> > I am

> > > > concerned this could just be a way to make money for the

board.

> > > > Julie

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

david:

 

i don't think we are allowed to say the D-word on the TCM site.

 

hope you find the xiao yao wan soon. meanwhile, massage liv3

 

k

 

 

On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof wrote:

>

> Well Kath,

>

> You're right. It irritates me. Because you are certainly not the

> first to make negative assumptions about the financial motives of

> the people involved with ABORM or Reproductive OM at large.

>

> But, you are the first that I have seen who described those

> assumptions as facts. And had you bothered to do so, you would have

> been the first one to do any fact-checking before publishing your

> assumptions all over the internet.

>

> Now pass the GOD DAMNED Xiao Yao San!!!!

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " Kath Bartlett,

> MS, LAc " wrote:

> >

> > david:

> >

> > just a suggestion: when you read an email that arouses your liver

> qi,

> > resist the temptation to hit reply and send immediately. rather,

> wait an

> > hour or even a day or two, breath, and chill out. and then decide

> if the

> > email requires a response. if so, you can then respond with less

> emotion.

> > (i try to follow this advice myself, although i admit, sometime i

> do hit

> > reply and send without pausing).

> >

> > hope this helps,

> >

> > kb

> >

> >

> > On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof wrote:

> > >

> > > Kath,

> > >

> > > Let me get this straight. You are citing as " Facts " something

> > > that " 'smacks' of a profitable money making venture for the

> board, "

> > > and money that is " 'presumably' going to pay the board

> members??? "

> > >

> > > These are your facts? What you presume, and that which " smacks? "

> > >

> > > I'll tell you what seems troublesome to me, the FACT that you are

> > > CLEARLY making assumptions, but then go on to state that you " do

> not

> > > mean to insinuate motive here. " And the fact that you then go on

> to

> > > claim that you are " just noting facts " when you are doing

> nothing of

> > > the kind.

> > >

> > > As a non-profit the financial workings of the ABORM are designed

> to

> > > be completely transparent.

> > >

> > > I'll tell you the same thing I told David Twicken, if you want

> real

> > > facts then do your homework. Write a letter to the board and ask

> > > them for their financial protocols. Pick up the phone and call

> Ray

> > > Rubio and tell him you are concerned and ask what kind f salary

> he

> > > intends to draw.

> > >

> > > But for goodness' sakes, stop posting your fear based

> assumptions as

> > > data, and for REALLY GOODNESS' SAKES stop representing those

> > > assumptions as facts!

> > >

> > > --- In

>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

> cine%40>,

> > > " Kath Bartlett,

> > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Julie,

> > > >

> > > > one of the posts from last week pointed out that not-for-profit

> > > just means

> > > > they run at break-even. but this doesn't preclude paying the

> > > board members,

> > > > so presumably the money is going to pay the board members,

> costs of

> > > > administering the exam & printing those $1,000 certificates,

> and

> > > any

> > > > advertising costs.

> > > >

> > > > i agree it smacks of a profitable money making venture for the

> > > board.

> > > > although i do not have reason to believe that the board

> members do

> > > not have

> > > > altruistic motives of advancing ORM, i do note that at least

> one

> > > board

> > > > member, randine lewis has been quite successful at turning a

> > > profit with

> > > > books, seminars and workshops for fertility patients, in other

> > > words,

> > > > capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive here.

> > > just noting

> > > > facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome for me.

> > > >

> > > > kb

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > On 9/8/07, Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. <cariadanam@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test is

> not

> > > cheap in

> > > > > the slightest, where is this money going or into whose

> pockets?

> > > I am

> > > > > concerned this could just be a way to make money for the

> board.

> > > > > Julie

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

Kath,

 

I'll take your medical advice. Thanks.

 

Since you " presume " that my condition " smacks " of Liver Qi

stagnation, it MUST be a fact. Right?

 

David

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Kath Bartlett,

MS, LAc " wrote:

>

> david:

>

> i don't think we are allowed to say the D-word on the TCM site.

>

> hope you find the xiao yao wan soon. meanwhile, massage liv3

>

> k

>

>

> On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof wrote:

> >

> > Well Kath,

> >

> > You're right. It irritates me. Because you are certainly not the

> > first to make negative assumptions about the financial motives of

> > the people involved with ABORM or Reproductive OM at large.

> >

> > But, you are the first that I have seen who described those

> > assumptions as facts. And had you bothered to do so, you would

have

> > been the first one to do any fact-checking before publishing your

> > assumptions all over the internet.

> >

> > Now pass the GOD DAMNED Xiao Yao San!!!!

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

cine%40>,

> > " Kath Bartlett,

> > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > >

> > > david:

> > >

> > > just a suggestion: when you read an email that arouses your

liver

> > qi,

> > > resist the temptation to hit reply and send immediately.

rather,

> > wait an

> > > hour or even a day or two, breath, and chill out. and then

decide

> > if the

> > > email requires a response. if so, you can then respond with

less

> > emotion.

> > > (i try to follow this advice myself, although i admit,

sometime i

> > do hit

> > > reply and send without pausing).

> > >

> > > hope this helps,

> > >

> > > kb

> > >

> > >

> > > On 9/10/07, David Karchmer <acuprof@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Kath,

> > > >

> > > > Let me get this straight. You are citing as " Facts " something

> > > > that " 'smacks' of a profitable money making venture for the

> > board, "

> > > > and money that is " 'presumably' going to pay the board

> > members??? "

> > > >

> > > > These are your facts? What you presume, and that

which " smacks? "

> > > >

> > > > I'll tell you what seems troublesome to me, the FACT that

you are

> > > > CLEARLY making assumptions, but then go on to state that

you " do

> > not

> > > > mean to insinuate motive here. " And the fact that you then

go on

> > to

> > > > claim that you are " just noting facts " when you are doing

> > nothing of

> > > > the kind.

> > > >

> > > > As a non-profit the financial workings of the ABORM are

designed

> > to

> > > > be completely transparent.

> > > >

> > > > I'll tell you the same thing I told David Twicken, if you

want

> > real

> > > > facts then do your homework. Write a letter to the board and

ask

> > > > them for their financial protocols. Pick up the phone and

call

> > Ray

> > > > Rubio and tell him you are concerned and ask what kind f

salary

> > he

> > > > intends to draw.

> > > >

> > > > But for goodness' sakes, stop posting your fear based

> > assumptions as

> > > > data, and for REALLY GOODNESS' SAKES stop representing those

> > > > assumptions as facts!

> > > >

> > > > --- In

> >

Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

cine%40>

> > <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

> > cine%40>,

> > > > " Kath Bartlett,

> > > > MS, LAc " <acukath@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Julie,

> > > > >

> > > > > one of the posts from last week pointed out that not-for-

profit

> > > > just means

> > > > > they run at break-even. but this doesn't preclude paying

the

> > > > board members,

> > > > > so presumably the money is going to pay the board members,

> > costs of

> > > > > administering the exam & printing those $1,000

certificates,

> > and

> > > > any

> > > > > advertising costs.

> > > > >

> > > > > i agree it smacks of a profitable money making venture for

the

> > > > board.

> > > > > although i do not have reason to believe that the board

> > members do

> > > > not have

> > > > > altruistic motives of advancing ORM, i do note that at

least

> > one

> > > > board

> > > > > member, randine lewis has been quite successful at turning

a

> > > > profit with

> > > > > books, seminars and workshops for fertility patients, in

other

> > > > words,

> > > > > capitalizing on ORM. i do not mean to insinuate motive

here.

> > > > just noting

> > > > > facts, as i see them, and which appear troublesome for me.

> > > > >

> > > > > kb

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > On 9/8/07, Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. <cariadanam@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What I would be curious to know is that since this test

is

> > not

> > > > cheap in

> > > > > > the slightest, where is this money going or into whose

> > pockets?

> > > > I am

> > > > > > concerned this could just be a way to make money for the

> > board.

> > > > > > Julie

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

[Guest guest]

David,

It has been my experience that on most internet boards, the individual

making any claims or advocating something, is the one responsible to

find the information and post it about the subject that they brought

up. (I know that is a confusing sentence, but I am tired right now) In

other words, if you are the one that brought up ABORM on this board,

you are the one that is responsible for finding the answers. It is

poor form to advocate something as being good or the future of our

profession, and then tell everyone else that they have to do the

research on the organization that you brought up and would logically be

more familer with than anyone else here. " Contact them and get the

answers yourself " in not considered to be polite. If you brought this

up, then supply the answers if you can, if not tell us that you can't

and then drop it.

R. L. Baddorf

LAc