ABORM Questions

September 6, 2007

David,

You pose some interseting questions. Let me address them by saying

that I am not a board member of ABORM. Rather, I am just

a 'civilian' acupuncturist who specializes in the treatment of

reproductive disorders, and who supports the efforts of ABORM. When

you refer to ABORM as " My Company, " I think you may have assumed

that I have some ownership in the ABORM. So, let me just make that

clear from the start. I am registered for the 2008 ABORM exam, and

will be among the first cohort of those certified by the board, but

I am not curretntly a board member.

I have forwarded your post to Ray Rubio. He is the president and CEO

of the ABORM, and I think he is uniquely qualified to answer some of

the questions you pose - particularly those questions about salaries

and finances.

As a private acupuncture citizen advocating for ABORM and for

specialty boards, I would like to address the last point you raise:

" Shall we assume [ABORM] will seek certification for Oncology,

Diabetes, etc., so in a way we can anticipate having to obtain

certification in every area of our medicine? So if you practice

anything other than reproductive medicine, we can consider you do

not have the knowledge to effectively practice because you are not

certified? "

-------------------------------

ABORM (The American Board of REPRODUCTIVE Oriental Medicine) will

probably never seek to offe certification in Oncology, Diabetes, or

any other area of specialty, because it has a singular focus on

REPRODUCTIVE Oriental Medicine.

Other boards may form in the future to offer some kind of board

certification in these areas and if they do, I applaud them.

I think that you may be operating from the assumption that with the

formation of such boards and with the advent of specialized board

certification, it somehow prevents general practitioners from

continuing to treat (in this case) reproductive disorders. IT DOES

NOT. There is absolutely nothing that prevents you or any other

practicing acupuncturist from treating, or even specializing in

reproductive acupuncture with, or without ABORM certification.

I work in San Antonio with a very accomplished Reproductive

Endocrinologist. He is Board Certified in Reproductive Endocrinology

and Infertility, and also in Obstetrics and Gynecology. However,

there are also a number of Infertility Specialists in the area who

are NOT Board Certified in Endocrinology and Infertility.

Apparently, it is not required that one becomes Board Certified in

order to practice Reproductive Medicine.

And so it is with the ABORM and specialty boards. Those who are so

motivated and inclined can apply themselves and become board

certified, and those who are not inclined can continue to practice

just as they are practicing now.

David Karchmer

-- In

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

<flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> Hello David:

>

> I was reading information from your ABORM and have some questions

> maybe you can help me with, Im trying to understand your company

and

> how it works and what we can anticipate for the future.

> I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

>

> " The ABORM has been formed by leading professionals in Oriental

> Reproductive Medicine who have come together voluntarily with a

> resolve to meet the patient and physician demand for a

demonstration

> of knowledge of care in this field. "

> ***********************************

> Has State Board and National Licensing Agencies stated that

licensed

> practioners are not qualified to practice in this field. If

> I read your statement properly, can't one argue that this is true

> for every field of our medicine?

>

> " We have recognized the need for a certification to maintain that

> practitioners who are treating patients with Oriental Medicine in

> the field of Reproductive Health are doing so with an advanced

> knowledge and experience, and to allow practitioners to demonstrate

> their knowledge through the process of voluntary examination. "

> ***************************

> Has any Acupuncture licensing agencies approved your exams?

>

> Has any Acupuncture licensing agencies granted you approval to

> create certification? It seems you are impying this exam is much

> more than a CEU course, atleast for CEU's approaval from a

licensing

> authority is required.

>

> Is there any reason you have not saught some legal certification

from

> organizations that grant that in our profession?

>

> " The ABORM is a non-profit 501©6 corporation devoted to teaching,

> research, and the practice of Oriental Medicine as it relates to

the

> treatment of reproductive disorders. "

> **********************************

>

> Will there be salaries to organizational members?

>

> Will the courses be part of non-profit organization or For Profit

> people?

>

> Will board members and owners of Certification exams share in the

> revenues of courses?

>

> Shall we assume your company will seek certification for Oncology,

> Diabetes, etc., so in a way we can anticipate having to obtain

> certification in every area of our medicine? So if you practice

> anything other than reproductive medicine, we can consider you do

> not have the knowledge to effectively practice because you are not

> certified?

>

> Thanks, much appreciated.

>

> David

>

September 6, 2007

David,

As I said previously, it is very unlikely that ABORM " will use their

structure to exand to other boards, for all areas of specialty in

? "

ABORM is only concerned with Reproductive Oriental Medicine.

However, other boards may form that seek to utilize the same

model............who knows?

As for your concern, that as a result of being ABORM certified,

patients and western medical practioners can can be assured that a

practioner has advanced knowledge, I agree. I think that is correct,

that a Board Certification gives both doctors and patients a means

to assess the expertise of their acupuncturist. This is pretty much

the whole point!

You also voiced concern that non-certified practitioners will be

competing with their Board Certified counterparts. Again, I think

you are right. There will be an objective criteria (ABORM

certification) by which referring doctors and patients will be

measuring an acupuncturist's qualifications. And as such, there may

be competition between certified and non-certified acupuncturists.

As someone who specialized exclusively in the practice of

Reproductive OM, and someone who is feverishly studying and

developing expertise in order to pass the ABORM exam, I absolutely

welcome this kind of competition. This is good for our profession.

There is a difference in knowledge and expertise between an

acupuncturist who IS ABORM certified, and one who is NOT ABORM

certified.

So, if you are concerned that you, or another non-certified

practitioner might be at a disadvantage when competing with ABORM

certified practitioners, I think this is a very valid concern, and

one that is very healthy for the development of our profession. When

are higher standards ever a bad thing??

David Karchmer

The underlying message in their mission statement is to inform the

> public, patients and western medical practioners they can can be

> assured a practioner has advanced knowledge with their

> certification, my concern is will they be aggressively promoting

> this to all these parties, will they be sending information or

> advertising to medical doctors, hospitals, etc. to " select " their

> certified people and not others, will there be a marketing

campaign

> to do this? If yes than our community should be aware of this.

> Because non-certified practioners will be competiting with these

> certified people.

>

> I also think we should check with our State or National licensing

> agencies whether one can advertise this certificate. I noticed on

> the California Medical Board that only certificates granted by

their

> approved Specialty Boards and organizations can advertise their

> certifications, otherwise it is prohibited.

>

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

<flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> Hi David:

>

> Thanks for responding and maybe others will address these issues

and

> continue this important dialogue. Just a few points. I am trying

to

> understand exactly what ABORM is all about and what the future may

> entail for our profession.

>

> It seems ABORM is trying to obtain support from our profession and

> industry, at the least we should have some idea of what the future

> may entail, which leads to my question whether ABORM will use

their

> structure to exand to other boards, for all areas of specialty in

> ?

>

> The underlying message in their mission statement is to inform the

> public, patients and western medical practioners they can can be

> assured a practioner has advanced knowledge with their

> certification, my concern is will they be aggressively promoting

> this to all these parties, will they be sending information or

> advertising to medical doctors, hospitals, etc. to " select " their

> certified people and not others, will there be a marketing

campaign

> to do this? If yes than our community should be aware of this.

> Because non-certified practioners will be competiting with these

> certified people.

>

> I also think we should check with our State or National licensing

> agencies whether one can advertise this certificate. I noticed on

> the California Medical Board that only certificates granted by

their

> approved Specialty Boards and organizations can advertise their

> certifications, otherwise it is prohibited.

>

> Thanks for the friendly discussion.

>

> Regards,

>

> david

>

> Chinese Medicine , " David

> Karchmer " <acuprof@> wrote:

> >

> > David,

> >

> > You pose some interseting questions. Let me address them by

saying

> > that I am not a board member of ABORM. Rather, I am just

> > a 'civilian' acupuncturist who specializes in the treatment of

> > reproductive disorders, and who supports the efforts of ABORM.

> When

> > you refer to ABORM as " My Company, " I think you may have assumed

> > that I have some ownership in the ABORM. So, let me just make

that

> > clear from the start. I am registered for the 2008 ABORM exam,

and

> > will be among the first cohort of those certified by the board,

> but

> > I am not curretntly a board member.

> >

> > I have forwarded your post to Ray Rubio. He is the president and

> CEO

> > of the ABORM, and I think he is uniquely qualified to answer

some

> of

> > the questions you pose - particularly those questions about

> salaries

> > and finances.

> >

> > As a private acupuncture citizen advocating for ABORM and for

> > specialty boards, I would like to address the last point you

raise:

> >

> > " Shall we assume [ABORM] will seek certification for Oncology,

> > Diabetes, etc., so in a way we can anticipate having to obtain

> > certification in every area of our medicine? So if you practice

> > anything other than reproductive medicine, we can consider you

do

> > not have the knowledge to effectively practice because you are

not

> > certified? "

> > -------------------------------

> > ABORM (The American Board of REPRODUCTIVE Oriental Medicine)

will

> > probably never seek to offe certification in Oncology, Diabetes,

> or

> > any other area of specialty, because it has a singular focus on

> > REPRODUCTIVE Oriental Medicine.

> >

> > Other boards may form in the future to offer some kind of board

> > certification in these areas and if they do, I applaud them.

> >

> > I think that you may be operating from the assumption that with

> the

> > formation of such boards and with the advent of specialized

board

> > certification, it somehow prevents general practitioners from

> > continuing to treat (in this case) reproductive disorders. IT

DOES

> > NOT. There is absolutely nothing that prevents you or any other

> > practicing acupuncturist from treating, or even specializing in

> > reproductive acupuncture with, or without ABORM certification.

> >

> > I work in San Antonio with a very accomplished Reproductive

> > Endocrinologist. He is Board Certified in Reproductive

> Endocrinology

> > and Infertility, and also in Obstetrics and Gynecology. However,

> > there are also a number of Infertility Specialists in the area

who

> > are NOT Board Certified in Endocrinology and Infertility.

> > Apparently, it is not required that one becomes Board Certified

in

> > order to practice Reproductive Medicine.

> >

> > And so it is with the ABORM and specialty boards. Those who are

so

> > motivated and inclined can apply themselves and become board

> > certified, and those who are not inclined can continue to

practice

> > just as they are practicing now.

> >

> > David Karchmer

> >

> > -- In

> >

>

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

> > <flyingstarsfengshui@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hello David:

> > >

> > > I was reading information from your ABORM and have some

questions

> > > maybe you can help me with, Im trying to understand your

company

> > and

> > > how it works and what we can anticipate for the future.

> > > I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

> > >

> > > " The ABORM has been formed by leading professionals in Oriental

> > > Reproductive Medicine who have come together voluntarily with a

> > > resolve to meet the patient and physician demand for a

> > demonstration

> > > of knowledge of care in this field. "

> > > ***********************************

> > > Has State Board and National Licensing Agencies stated that

> > licensed

> > > practioners are not qualified to practice in this field. If

> > > I read your statement properly, can't one argue that this is

true

> > > for every field of our medicine?

> > >

> > > " We have recognized the need for a certification to maintain

that

> > > practitioners who are treating patients with Oriental Medicine

in

> > > the field of Reproductive Health are doing so with an advanced

> > > knowledge and experience, and to allow practitioners to

> demonstrate

> > > their knowledge through the process of voluntary examination. "

> > > ***************************

> > > Has any Acupuncture licensing agencies approved your exams?

> > >

> > > Has any Acupuncture licensing agencies granted you approval to

> > > create certification? It seems you are impying this exam is

much

> > > more than a CEU course, atleast for CEU's approaval from a

> > licensing

> > > authority is required.

> > >

> > > Is there any reason you have not saught some legal

certification

> > from

> > > organizations that grant that in our profession?

> > >

> > > " The ABORM is a non-profit 501©6 corporation devoted to

> teaching,

> > > research, and the practice of Oriental Medicine as it relates

to

> > the

> > > treatment of reproductive disorders. "

> > > **********************************

> > >

> > > Will there be salaries to organizational members?

> > >

> > > Will the courses be part of non-profit organization or For

Profit

> > > people?

> > >

> > > Will board members and owners of Certification exams share in

the

> > > revenues of courses?

> > >

> > > Shall we assume your company will seek certification for

> Oncology,

> > > Diabetes, etc., so in a way we can anticipate having to obtain

> > > certification in every area of our medicine? So if you

practice

> > > anything other than reproductive medicine, we can consider you

> do

> > > not have the knowledge to effectively practice because you are

> not

> > > certified?

> > >

> > > Thanks, much appreciated.

> > >

> > > David

> > >

> >

>

September 6, 2007

David (K),

This happened to catch my eye enough to warrant a quick reply.

On Sep 6, 2007, at 9:43 AM, David Karchmer wrote:

> There is a difference in knowledge and expertise between an

> acupuncturist who IS ABORM certified, and one who is NOT ABORM

> certified.

While a voluntary certification does indicate that a certificant

meets some minimal qualifications, knowledge, or competency, it does

not--in any way--indicate that a certificant's qualifications,

knowledge, or competency exceed those of non-certified individuals.

In fact, the absence of certification says nothing about non-

certified individuals other than they chose not to seek voluntary

certification.

Such claims, if made by the certification program itself, would

expose it to a variety of antitrust and tort liability challenges.

Regards,

Bill Mosca, LAc

September 6, 2007

Dear all colleagues,

As I've read this discussion of ABORM, I found it very interesting.

However, I have some questions, ABORM members may help me to find

some answers......I hope all my answers will be YES...

I wonder if the ABORM is recognized by the medical board or it will

be recognized in western medicine? What the ABORM has done so far to

prove to medical board ( western ) that the ABORM is eligible in this

field? Will this CERTIFICATION will gain or establish an entry in

their doors ( western medicine )? Can ABORM members participate and

share their knowledge in the field of Reproductive Medicine in the

hospitals with the same respect as specialists " Gynecologist or

Obstetrist " ?

Will this certification will give an ABORM member as a QUALIFIED

specialist in Reproductive field and should be accepted anywhere in

the hospital without discrimination?

If this certification will grant us a vehicle to step in a hospital

door and or work with other physicians, I do not think any

acupuncturist will deny this certification. I will certainly support

this!

Thanks,

Respectfully,

Nam Nguyen

Chinese Medicine , " David Karchmer "

<acuprof wrote:

>

> David,

>

> As I said previously, it is very unlikely that ABORM " will use their

> structure to exand to other boards, for all areas of specialty in

> ? "

>

> ABORM is only concerned with Reproductive Oriental Medicine.

> However, other boards may form that seek to utilize the same

> model............who knows?

>

> As for your concern, that as a result of being ABORM certified,

> patients and western medical practioners can can be assured that a

> practioner has advanced knowledge, I agree. I think that is correct,

> that a Board Certification gives both doctors and patients a means

> to assess the expertise of their acupuncturist. This is pretty much

> the whole point!

>

> You also voiced concern that non-certified practitioners will be

> competing with their Board Certified counterparts. Again, I think

> you are right. There will be an objective criteria (ABORM

> certification) by which referring doctors and patients will be

> measuring an acupuncturist's qualifications. And as such, there may

> be competition between certified and non-certified acupuncturists.

>

> As someone who specialized exclusively in the practice of

> Reproductive OM, and someone who is feverishly studying and

> developing expertise in order to pass the ABORM exam, I absolutely

> welcome this kind of competition. This is good for our profession.

> There is a difference in knowledge and expertise between an

> acupuncturist who IS ABORM certified, and one who is NOT ABORM

> certified.

>

> So, if you are concerned that you, or another non-certified

> practitioner might be at a disadvantage when competing with ABORM

> certified practitioners, I think this is a very valid concern, and

> one that is very healthy for the development of our profession. When

> are higher standards ever a bad thing??

>

> David Karchmer

>

> The underlying message in their mission statement is to inform the

> > public, patients and western medical practioners they can can be

> > assured a practioner has advanced knowledge with their

> > certification, my concern is will they be aggressively promoting

> > this to all these parties, will they be sending information or

> > advertising to medical doctors, hospitals, etc. to " select " their

> > certified people and not others, will there be a marketing

> campaign

> > to do this? If yes than our community should be aware of this.

> > Because non-certified practioners will be competiting with these

> > certified people.

> >

> > I also think we should check with our State or National licensing

> > agencies whether one can advertise this certificate. I noticed on

> > the California Medical Board that only certificates granted by

> their

> > approved Specialty Boards and organizations can advertise their

> > certifications, otherwise it is prohibited.

> >

>

> --- In

> Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

> <flyingstarsfengshui@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi David:

> >

> > Thanks for responding and maybe others will address these issues

> and

> > continue this important dialogue. Just a few points. I am trying

> to

> > understand exactly what ABORM is all about and what the future may

> > entail for our profession.

> >

> > It seems ABORM is trying to obtain support from our profession and

> > industry, at the least we should have some idea of what the future

> > may entail, which leads to my question whether ABORM will use

> their

> > structure to exand to other boards, for all areas of specialty in

> > ?

> >

> > The underlying message in their mission statement is to inform the

> > public, patients and western medical practioners they can can be

> > assured a practioner has advanced knowledge with their

> > certification, my concern is will they be aggressively promoting

> > this to all these parties, will they be sending information or

> > advertising to medical doctors, hospitals, etc. to " select " their

> > certified people and not others, will there be a marketing

> campaign

> > to do this? If yes than our community should be aware of this.

> > Because non-certified practioners will be competiting with these

> > certified people.

> >

> > I also think we should check with our State or National licensing

> > agencies whether one can advertise this certificate. I noticed on

> > the California Medical Board that only certificates granted by

> their

> > approved Specialty Boards and organizations can advertise their

> > certifications, otherwise it is prohibited.

> >

> > Thanks for the friendly discussion.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > david

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , " David

> > Karchmer " <acuprof@> wrote:

> > >

> > > David,

> > >

> > > You pose some interseting questions. Let me address them by

> saying

> > > that I am not a board member of ABORM. Rather, I am just

> > > a 'civilian' acupuncturist who specializes in the treatment of

> > > reproductive disorders, and who supports the efforts of ABORM.

> > When

> > > you refer to ABORM as " My Company, " I think you may have assumed

> > > that I have some ownership in the ABORM. So, let me just make

> that

> > > clear from the start. I am registered for the 2008 ABORM exam,

> and

> > > will be among the first cohort of those certified by the board,

> > but

> > > I am not curretntly a board member.

> > >

> > > I have forwarded your post to Ray Rubio. He is the president and

> > CEO

> > > of the ABORM, and I think he is uniquely qualified to answer

> some

> > of

> > > the questions you pose - particularly those questions about

> > salaries

> > > and finances.

> > >

> > > As a private acupuncture citizen advocating for ABORM and for

> > > specialty boards, I would like to address the last point you

> raise:

> > >

> > > " Shall we assume [ABORM] will seek certification for Oncology,

> > > Diabetes, etc., so in a way we can anticipate having to obtain

> > > certification in every area of our medicine? So if you practice

> > > anything other than reproductive medicine, we can consider you

> do

> > > not have the knowledge to effectively practice because you are

> not

> > > certified? "

> > > -------------------------------

> > > ABORM (The American Board of REPRODUCTIVE Oriental Medicine)

> will

> > > probably never seek to offe certification in Oncology, Diabetes,

> > or

> > > any other area of specialty, because it has a singular focus on

> > > REPRODUCTIVE Oriental Medicine.

> > >

> > > Other boards may form in the future to offer some kind of board

> > > certification in these areas and if they do, I applaud them.

> > >

> > > I think that you may be operating from the assumption that with

> > the

> > > formation of such boards and with the advent of specialized

> board

> > > certification, it somehow prevents general practitioners from

> > > continuing to treat (in this case) reproductive disorders. IT

> DOES

> > > NOT. There is absolutely nothing that prevents you or any other

> > > practicing acupuncturist from treating, or even specializing in

> > > reproductive acupuncture with, or without ABORM certification.

> > >

> > > I work in San Antonio with a very accomplished Reproductive

> > > Endocrinologist. He is Board Certified in Reproductive

> > Endocrinology

> > > and Infertility, and also in Obstetrics and Gynecology. However,

> > > there are also a number of Infertility Specialists in the area

> who

> > > are NOT Board Certified in Endocrinology and Infertility.

> > > Apparently, it is not required that one becomes Board Certified

> in

> > > order to practice Reproductive Medicine.

> > >

> > > And so it is with the ABORM and specialty boards. Those who are

> so

> > > motivated and inclined can apply themselves and become board

> > > certified, and those who are not inclined can continue to

> practice

> > > just as they are practicing now.

> > >

> > > David Karchmer

> > >

> > > -- In

> > >

> >

> Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

> > > <flyingstarsfengshui@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hello David:

> > > >

> > > > I was reading information from your ABORM and have some

> questions

> > > > maybe you can help me with, Im trying to understand your

> company

> > > and

> > > > how it works and what we can anticipate for the future.

> > > > I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

> > > >

> > > > " The ABORM has been formed by leading professionals in Oriental

> > > > Reproductive Medicine who have come together voluntarily with a

> > > > resolve to meet the patient and physician demand for a

> > > demonstration

> > > > of knowledge of care in this field. "

> > > > ***********************************

> > > > Has State Board and National Licensing Agencies stated that

> > > licensed

> > > > practioners are not qualified to practice in this field. If

> > > > I read your statement properly, can't one argue that this is

> true

> > > > for every field of our medicine?

> > > >

> > > > " We have recognized the need for a certification to maintain

> that

> > > > practitioners who are treating patients with Oriental Medicine

> in

> > > > the field of Reproductive Health are doing so with an advanced

> > > > knowledge and experience, and to allow practitioners to

> > demonstrate

> > > > their knowledge through the process of voluntary examination. "

> > > > ***************************

> > > > Has any Acupuncture licensing agencies approved your exams?

> > > >

> > > > Has any Acupuncture licensing agencies granted you approval to

> > > > create certification? It seems you are impying this exam is

> much

> > > > more than a CEU course, atleast for CEU's approaval from a

> > > licensing

> > > > authority is required.

> > > >

> > > > Is there any reason you have not saught some legal

> certification

> > > from

> > > > organizations that grant that in our profession?

> > > >

> > > > " The ABORM is a non-profit 501©6 corporation devoted to

> > teaching,

> > > > research, and the practice of Oriental Medicine as it relates

> to

> > > the

> > > > treatment of reproductive disorders. "

> > > > **********************************

> > > >

> > > > Will there be salaries to organizational members?

> > > >

> > > > Will the courses be part of non-profit organization or For

> Profit

> > > > people?

> > > >

> > > > Will board members and owners of Certification exams share in

> the

> > > > revenues of courses?

> > > >

> > > > Shall we assume your company will seek certification for

> > Oncology,

> > > > Diabetes, etc., so in a way we can anticipate having to obtain

> > > > certification in every area of our medicine? So if you

> practice

> > > > anything other than reproductive medicine, we can consider you

> > do

> > > > not have the knowledge to effectively practice because you are

> > not

> > > > certified?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks, much appreciated.

> > > >

> > > > David

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

September 6, 2007

I have worked with some of the members of ABORM, and I can honestly say that

their work has inspired me to further myself and ensure I provide the best

possible service to my patients. I exclusively work with fertility in my

clinics, and that is my choice. It is not an easy practice route to take. I

believe this allows for me to better help my patients as this is what I work

with every hour, of every day. My patients also appreciate the fact that the

clinic is exclusively fertility based.

If you look at the combined experience of the members you will really start

to appreciate the passion and knowledge they have and can contribute to us.

I practice in Ireland and have travelled to Portugal, Canada and the United

States to further my fertility training. I have the utmost respect for

anyone who wants to further enhance the work that we do.

Thumbs up from me.....

Gordon.

On 9/6/07, dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58 wrote:

>

> Dear all colleagues,

> As I've read this discussion of ABORM, I found it very interesting.

> However, I have some questions, ABORM members may help me to find

> some answers......I hope all my answers will be YES...

> I wonder if the ABORM is recognized by the medical board or it will

> be recognized in western medicine? What the ABORM has done so far to

> prove to medical board ( western ) that the ABORM is eligible in this

> field? Will this CERTIFICATION will gain or establish an entry in

> their doors ( western medicine )? Can ABORM members participate and

> share their knowledge in the field of Reproductive Medicine in the

> hospitals with the same respect as specialists " Gynecologist or

> Obstetrist " ?

> Will this certification will give an ABORM member as a QUALIFIED

> specialist in Reproductive field and should be accepted anywhere in

> the hospital without discrimination?

> If this certification will grant us a vehicle to step in a hospital

> door and or work with other physicians, I do not think any

> acupuncturist will deny this certification. I will certainly support

> this!

>

> Thanks,

> Respectfully,

> Nam Nguyen

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " David Karchmer "

> <acuprof wrote:

> >

> > David,

> >

> > As I said previously, it is very unlikely that ABORM " will use their

> > structure to exand to other boards, for all areas of specialty in

> > ? "

> >

> > ABORM is only concerned with Reproductive Oriental Medicine.

> > However, other boards may form that seek to utilize the same

> > model............who knows?

> >

> > As for your concern, that as a result of being ABORM certified,

> > patients and western medical practioners can can be assured that a

> > practioner has advanced knowledge, I agree. I think that is correct,

> > that a Board Certification gives both doctors and patients a means

> > to assess the expertise of their acupuncturist. This is pretty much

> > the whole point!

> >

> > You also voiced concern that non-certified practitioners will be

> > competing with their Board Certified counterparts. Again, I think

> > you are right. There will be an objective criteria (ABORM

> > certification) by which referring doctors and patients will be

> > measuring an acupuncturist's qualifications. And as such, there may

> > be competition between certified and non-certified acupuncturists.

> >

> > As someone who specialized exclusively in the practice of

> > Reproductive OM, and someone who is feverishly studying and

> > developing expertise in order to pass the ABORM exam, I absolutely

> > welcome this kind of competition. This is good for our profession.

> > There is a difference in knowledge and expertise between an

> > acupuncturist who IS ABORM certified, and one who is NOT ABORM

> > certified.

> >

> > So, if you are concerned that you, or another non-certified

> > practitioner might be at a disadvantage when competing with ABORM

> > certified practitioners, I think this is a very valid concern, and

> > one that is very healthy for the development of our profession. When

> > are higher standards ever a bad thing??

> >

> > David Karchmer

> >

> > The underlying message in their mission statement is to inform the

> > > public, patients and western medical practioners they can can be

> > > assured a practioner has advanced knowledge with their

> > > certification, my concern is will they be aggressively promoting

> > > this to all these parties, will they be sending information or

> > > advertising to medical doctors, hospitals, etc. to " select " their

> > > certified people and not others, will there be a marketing

> > campaign

> > > to do this? If yes than our community should be aware of this.

> > > Because non-certified practioners will be competiting with these

> > > certified people.

> > >

> > > I also think we should check with our State or National licensing

> > > agencies whether one can advertise this certificate. I noticed on

> > > the California Medical Board that only certificates granted by

> > their

> > > approved Specialty Boards and organizations can advertise their

> > > certifications, otherwise it is prohibited.

> > >

> >

> > --- In

> >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " flyingstarsfengshui "

> > <flyingstarsfengshui@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi David:

> > >

> > > Thanks for responding and maybe others will address these issues

> > and

> > > continue this important dialogue. Just a few points. I am trying

> > to

> > > understand exactly what ABORM is all about and what the future may

> > > entail for our profession.

> > >

> > > It seems ABORM is trying to obtain support from our profession and

> > > industry, at the least we should have some idea of what the future

> > > may entail, which leads to my question whether ABORM will use

> > their

> > > structure to exand to other boards, for all areas of specialty in

> > > ?

> > >

> > > The underlying message in their mission statement is to inform the

> > > public, patients and western medical practioners they can can be

> > > assured a practioner has advanced knowledge with their

> > > certification, my concern is will they be aggressively promoting

> > > this to all these parties, will they be sending information or

> > > advertising to medical doctors, hospitals, etc. to " select " their

> > > certified people and not others, will there be a marketing

> > campaign

> > > to do this? If yes than our community should be aware of this.

> > > Because non-certified practioners will be competiting with these

> > > certified people.

> > >

> > > I also think we should check with our State or National licensing

> > > agencies whether one can advertise this certificate. I noticed on

> > > the California Medical Board that only certificates granted by

> > their

> > > approved Specialty Boards and organizations can advertise their

> > > certifications, otherwise it is prohibited.

> > >

> > > Thanks for the friendly discussion.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > > david

> > >

> > > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " David

> > > Karchmer " <acuprof@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > David,

> > > >

> > > > You pose some interseting questions. Let me address them by

> > saying

> > > > that I am not a board member of ABORM. Rather, I am just

> > > > a 'civilian' acupuncturist who specializes in the treatment of

> > > > reproductive disorders, and who supports the efforts of ABORM.

> > > When

> > > > you refer to ABORM as " My Company, " I think you may have assumed

> > > > that I have some ownership in the ABORM. So, let me just make

> > that

> > > > clear from the start. I am registered for the 2008 ABORM exam,

> > and

> > > > will be among the first cohort of those certified by the board,

> > > but

> > > > I am not curretntly a board member.

> > > >

> > > > I have forwarded your post to Ray Rubio. He is the president and

> > > CEO

> > > > of the ABORM, and I think he is uniquely qualified to answer

> > some

> > > of

> > > > the questions you pose - particularly those questions about

> > > salaries

> > > > and finances.

> > > >

> > > > As a private acupuncture citizen advocating for ABORM and for

> > > > specialty boards, I would like to address the last point you

> > raise:

> > > >

> > > > " Shall we assume [ABORM] will seek certification for Oncology,

> > > > Diabetes, etc., so in a way we can anticipate having to obtain

> > > > certification in every area of our medicine? So if you practice

> > > > anything other than reproductive medicine, we can consider you

> > do

> > > > not have the knowledge to effectively practice because you are

> > not

> > > > certified? "

> > > > -------------------------

> > > > ABORM (The American Board of REPRODUCTIVE Oriental Medicine)

> > will

> > > > probably never seek to offe certification in Oncology, Diabetes,

> > > or

> > > > any other area of specialty, because it has a singular focus on

> > > > REPRODUCTIVE Oriental Medicine.

> > > >

> > > > Other boards may form in the future to offer some kind of board

> > > > certification in these areas and if they do, I applaud them.

> > > >

> > > > I think that you may be operating from the assumption that with

> > > the

> > > > formation of such boards and with the advent of specialized

> > board

> > > > certification, it somehow prevents general practitioners from

> > > > continuing to treat (in this case) reproductive disorders. IT

> > DOES

> > > > NOT. There is absolutely nothing that prevents you or any other

> > > > practicing acupuncturist from treating, or even specializing in

> > > > reproductive acupuncture with, or without ABORM certification.

> > > >

> > > > I work in San Antonio with a very accomplished Reproductive

> > > > Endocrinologist. He is Board Certified in Reproductive

> > > Endocrinology

> > > > and Infertility, and also in Obstetrics and Gynecology. However,

> > > > there are also a number of Infertility Specialists in the area

> > who

> > > > are NOT Board Certified in Endocrinology and Infertility.

> > > > Apparently, it is not required that one becomes Board Certified

> > in

> > > > order to practice Reproductive Medicine.

> > > >

> > > > And so it is with the ABORM and specialty boards. Those who are

> > so

> > > > motivated and inclined can apply themselves and become board

> > > > certified, and those who are not inclined can continue to

> > practice

> > > > just as they are practicing now.

> > > >

> > > > David Karchmer

> > > >

> > > > -- In

> > > >

> > >

> >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " flyingstarsfengshui "

> > > > <flyingstarsfengshui@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Hello David:

> > > > >

> > > > > I was reading information from your ABORM and have some

> > questions

> > > > > maybe you can help me with, Im trying to understand your

> > company

> > > > and

> > > > > how it works and what we can anticipate for the future.

> > > > > I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

> > > > >

> > > > > " The ABORM has been formed by leading professionals in Oriental

> > > > > Reproductive Medicine who have come together voluntarily with a

> > > > > resolve to meet the patient and physician demand for a

> > > > demonstration

> > > > > of knowledge of care in this field. "

> > > > > ***********************************

> > > > > Has State Board and National Licensing Agencies stated that

> > > > licensed

> > > > > practioners are not qualified to practice in this field. If

> > > > > I read your statement properly, can't one argue that this is

> > true

> > > > > for every field of our medicine?

> > > > >

> > > > > " We have recognized the need for a certification to maintain

> > that

> > > > > practitioners who are treating patients with Oriental Medicine

> > in

> > > > > the field of Reproductive Health are doing so with an advanced

> > > > > knowledge and experience, and to allow practitioners to

> > > demonstrate

> > > > > their knowledge through the process of voluntary examination. "

> > > > > ***************************

> > > > > Has any Acupuncture licensing agencies approved your exams?

> > > > >

> > > > > Has any Acupuncture licensing agencies granted you approval to

> > > > > create certification? It seems you are impying this exam is

> > much

> > > > > more than a CEU course, atleast for CEU's approaval from a

> > > > licensing

> > > > > authority is required.

> > > > >

> > > > > Is there any reason you have not saught some legal

> > certification

> > > > from

> > > > > organizations that grant that in our profession?

> > > > >

> > > > > " The ABORM is a non-profit 501©6 corporation devoted to

> > > teaching,

> > > > > research, and the practice of Oriental Medicine as it relates

> > to

> > > > the

> > > > > treatment of reproductive disorders. "

> > > > > **********************************

> > > > >

> > > > > Will there be salaries to organizational members?

> > > > >

> > > > > Will the courses be part of non-profit organization or For

> > Profit

> > > > > people?

> > > > >

> > > > > Will board members and owners of Certification exams share in

> > the

> > > > > revenues of courses?

> > > > >

> > > > > Shall we assume your company will seek certification for

> > > Oncology,

> > > > > Diabetes, etc., so in a way we can anticipate having to obtain

> > > > > certification in every area of our medicine? So if you

> > practice

> > > > > anything other than reproductive medicine, we can consider you

> > > do

> > > > > not have the knowledge to effectively practice because you are

> > > not

> > > > > certified?

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks, much appreciated.

> > > > >

> > > > > David

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

September 6, 2007

Hi Nam,

I have nothing to do with ABORM, but I worked in a hospital as a fulltime

acupuncturist. I must say that in order to practice at a hospital, you must

be licensed as an acupuncturist in your state and be granted hospital

priviledges by the individual hospital or by a patient who requests your

services, or be hired as an employee, or through an internship program set

up by a school or other teaching facility.

Contrary to popular belief, degrees such as a PhD, DAOM, DOM, or little

certifications like something given by ABORM will not grant you recognition

to practice at a hospital.

There are also issues like Medicare insurance which have a big deal of

getting you or any licensed acupuncturist in a hospital. Since currently

Medicare does not reimburse for acupuncture, chances of working at a

hospital are slimmer. Also since most insurance follows Medicare

guidelines, that is why many insurance providers do not reimburse for

acupuncture. ANd hospitals are big institutions in which Medicare dollars

flow.

There are many oppositions to working in a hospital - including working with

doctors, nurses, various departments that feel threatened, limited use of

herbs, etc. Its not as ideal as many would think.

In my opinion, an acupuncturist skilled in marketing and has business sense,

along with a nice clinic, and especially good clinical results with Tung's

acupuncture or other clinically proven method would be more ideal. Of

course, learning orthopedic testing, and learning how to write med

legal/insurance reports to justify subjective and objective findings and

discussion of treatment plan go a long way. You also tend to make extra

money selling supplements and herbals. In sum, it is much better in private

practice, as long as you have people skills, a good bedside manner and some

business skills. Many schools don't do a good job teaching this and your

mileage may vary until you find a way to do it successfully or hire a coach.

You have also had me think, do ABORM members also have to take their own

course? How many ABORM members have passed their own course exam? I see a

lot of play on words in this ABORM discussion, but few real answers.

Best regards,

On 9/6/07, dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58 wrote:

>

> Dear all colleagues,

> As I've read this discussion of ABORM, I found it very interesting.

> However, I have some questions, ABORM members may help me to find

> some answers......I hope all my answers will be YES...

> I wonder if the ABORM is recognized by the medical board or it will

> be recognized in western medicine? What the ABORM has done so far to

> prove to medical board ( western ) that the ABORM is eligible in this

> field? Will this CERTIFICATION will gain or establish an entry in

> their doors ( western medicine )? Can ABORM members participate and

> share their knowledge in the field of Reproductive Medicine in the

> hospitals with the same respect as specialists " Gynecologist or

> Obstetrist " ?

> Will this certification will give an ABORM member as a QUALIFIED

> specialist in Reproductive field and should be accepted anywhere in

> the hospital without discrimination?

> If this certification will grant us a vehicle to step in a hospital

> door and or work with other physicians, I do not think any

> acupuncturist will deny this certification. I will certainly support

> this!

>

> Thanks,

> Respectfully,

> Nam Nguyen

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " David Karchmer "

> <acuprof wrote:

> >

> > David,

> >

> > As I said previously, it is very unlikely that ABORM " will use their

> > structure to exand to other boards, for all areas of specialty in

> > ? "

> >

> > ABORM is only concerned with Reproductive Oriental Medicine.

> > However, other boards may form that seek to utilize the same

> > model............who knows?

> >

> > As for your concern, that as a result of being ABORM certified,

> > patients and western medical practioners can can be assured that a

> > practioner has advanced knowledge, I agree. I think that is correct,

> > that a Board Certification gives both doctors and patients a means

> > to assess the expertise of their acupuncturist. This is pretty much

> > the whole point!

> >

> > You also voiced concern that non-certified practitioners will be

> > competing with their Board Certified counterparts. Again, I think

> > you are right. There will be an objective criteria (ABORM

> > certification) by which referring doctors and patients will be

> > measuring an acupuncturist's qualifications. And as such, there may

> > be competition between certified and non-certified acupuncturists.

> >

> > As someone who specialized exclusively in the practice of

> > Reproductive OM, and someone who is feverishly studying and

> > developing expertise in order to pass the ABORM exam, I absolutely

> > welcome this kind of competition. This is good for our profession.

> > There is a difference in knowledge and expertise between an

> > acupuncturist who IS ABORM certified, and one who is NOT ABORM

> > certified.

> >

> > So, if you are concerned that you, or another non-certified

> > practitioner might be at a disadvantage when competing with ABORM

> > certified practitioners, I think this is a very valid concern, and

> > one that is very healthy for the development of our profession. When

> > are higher standards ever a bad thing??

> >

> > David Karchmer

> >

> > The underlying message in their mission statement is to inform the

> > > public, patients and western medical practioners they can can be

> > > assured a practioner has advanced knowledge with their

> > > certification, my concern is will they be aggressively promoting

> > > this to all these parties, will they be sending information or

> > > advertising to medical doctors, hospitals, etc. to " select " their

> > > certified people and not others, will there be a marketing

> > campaign

> > > to do this? If yes than our community should be aware of this.

> > > Because non-certified practioners will be competiting with these

> > > certified people.

> > >

> > > I also think we should check with our State or National licensing

> > > agencies whether one can advertise this certificate. I noticed on

> > > the California Medical Board that only certificates granted by

> > their

> > > approved Specialty Boards and organizations can advertise their

> > > certifications, otherwise it is prohibited.

> > >

> >

> > --- In

> >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " flyingstarsfengshui "

> > <flyingstarsfengshui@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi David:

> > >

> > > Thanks for responding and maybe others will address these issues

> > and

> > > continue this important dialogue. Just a few points. I am trying

> > to

> > > understand exactly what ABORM is all about and what the future may

> > > entail for our profession.

> > >

> > > It seems ABORM is trying to obtain support from our profession and

> > > industry, at the least we should have some idea of what the future

> > > may entail, which leads to my question whether ABORM will use

> > their

> > > structure to exand to other boards, for all areas of specialty in

> > > ?

> > >

> > > The underlying message in their mission statement is to inform the

> > > public, patients and western medical practioners they can can be

> > > assured a practioner has advanced knowledge with their

> > > certification, my concern is will they be aggressively promoting

> > > this to all these parties, will they be sending information or

> > > advertising to medical doctors, hospitals, etc. to " select " their

> > > certified people and not others, will there be a marketing

> > campaign

> > > to do this? If yes than our community should be aware of this.

> > > Because non-certified practioners will be competiting with these

> > > certified people.

> > >

> > > I also think we should check with our State or National licensing

> > > agencies whether one can advertise this certificate. I noticed on

> > > the California Medical Board that only certificates granted by

> > their

> > > approved Specialty Boards and organizations can advertise their

> > > certifications, otherwise it is prohibited.

> > >

> > > Thanks for the friendly discussion.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > > david

> > >

> > > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " David

> > > Karchmer " <acuprof@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > David,

> > > >

> > > > You pose some interseting questions. Let me address them by

> > saying

> > > > that I am not a board member of ABORM. Rather, I am just

> > > > a 'civilian' acupuncturist who specializes in the treatment of

> > > > reproductive disorders, and who supports the efforts of ABORM.

> > > When

> > > > you refer to ABORM as " My Company, " I think you may have assumed

> > > > that I have some ownership in the ABORM. So, let me just make

> > that

> > > > clear from the start. I am registered for the 2008 ABORM exam,

> > and

> > > > will be among the first cohort of those certified by the board,

> > > but

> > > > I am not curretntly a board member.

> > > >

> > > > I have forwarded your post to Ray Rubio. He is the president and

> > > CEO

> > > > of the ABORM, and I think he is uniquely qualified to answer

> > some

> > > of

> > > > the questions you pose - particularly those questions about

> > > salaries

> > > > and finances.

> > > >

> > > > As a private acupuncture citizen advocating for ABORM and for

> > > > specialty boards, I would like to address the last point you

> > raise:

> > > >

> > > > " Shall we assume [ABORM] will seek certification for Oncology,

> > > > Diabetes, etc., so in a way we can anticipate having to obtain

> > > > certification in every area of our medicine? So if you practice

> > > > anything other than reproductive medicine, we can consider you

> > do

> > > > not have the knowledge to effectively practice because you are

> > not

> > > > certified? "

> > > > -------------------------

> > > > ABORM (The American Board of REPRODUCTIVE Oriental Medicine)

> > will

> > > > probably never seek to offe certification in Oncology, Diabetes,

> > > or

> > > > any other area of specialty, because it has a singular focus on

> > > > REPRODUCTIVE Oriental Medicine.

> > > >

> > > > Other boards may form in the future to offer some kind of board

> > > > certification in these areas and if they do, I applaud them.

> > > >

> > > > I think that you may be operating from the assumption that with

> > > the

> > > > formation of such boards and with the advent of specialized

> > board

> > > > certification, it somehow prevents general practitioners from

> > > > continuing to treat (in this case) reproductive disorders. IT

> > DOES

> > > > NOT. There is absolutely nothing that prevents you or any other

> > > > practicing acupuncturist from treating, or even specializing in

> > > > reproductive acupuncture with, or without ABORM certification.

> > > >

> > > > I work in San Antonio with a very accomplished Reproductive

> > > > Endocrinologist. He is Board Certified in Reproductive

> > > Endocrinology

> > > > and Infertility, and also in Obstetrics and Gynecology. However,

> > > > there are also a number of Infertility Specialists in the area

> > who

> > > > are NOT Board Certified in Endocrinology and Infertility.

> > > > Apparently, it is not required that one becomes Board Certified

> > in

> > > > order to practice Reproductive Medicine.

> > > >

> > > > And so it is with the ABORM and specialty boards. Those who are

> > so

> > > > motivated and inclined can apply themselves and become board

> > > > certified, and those who are not inclined can continue to

> > practice

> > > > just as they are practicing now.

> > > >

> > > > David Karchmer

> > > >

> > > > -- In

> > > >

> > >

> >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " flyingstarsfengshui "

> > > > <flyingstarsfengshui@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Hello David:

> > > > >

> > > > > I was reading information from your ABORM and have some

> > questions

> > > > > maybe you can help me with, Im trying to understand your

> > company

> > > > and

> > > > > how it works and what we can anticipate for the future.

> > > > > I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

> > > > >

> > > > > " The ABORM has been formed by leading professionals in Oriental

> > > > > Reproductive Medicine who have come together voluntarily with a

> > > > > resolve to meet the patient and physician demand for a

> > > > demonstration

> > > > > of knowledge of care in this field. "

> > > > > ***********************************

> > > > > Has State Board and National Licensing Agencies stated that

> > > > licensed

> > > > > practioners are not qualified to practice in this field. If

> > > > > I read your statement properly, can't one argue that this is

> > true

> > > > > for every field of our medicine?

> > > > >

> > > > > " We have recognized the need for a certification to maintain

> > that

> > > > > practitioners who are treating patients with Oriental Medicine

> > in

> > > > > the field of Reproductive Health are doing so with an advanced

> > > > > knowledge and experience, and to allow practitioners to

> > > demonstrate

> > > > > their knowledge through the process of voluntary examination. "

> > > > > ***************************

> > > > > Has any Acupuncture licensing agencies approved your exams?

> > > > >

> > > > > Has any Acupuncture licensing agencies granted you approval to

> > > > > create certification? It seems you are impying this exam is

> > much

> > > > > more than a CEU course, atleast for CEU's approaval from a

> > > > licensing

> > > > > authority is required.

> > > > >

> > > > > Is there any reason you have not saught some legal

> > certification

> > > > from

> > > > > organizations that grant that in our profession?

> > > > >

> > > > > " The ABORM is a non-profit 501©6 corporation devoted to

> > > teaching,

> > > > > research, and the practice of Oriental Medicine as it relates

> > to

> > > > the

> > > > > treatment of reproductive disorders. "

> > > > > **********************************

> > > > >

> > > > > Will there be salaries to organizational members?

> > > > >

> > > > > Will the courses be part of non-profit organization or For

> > Profit

> > > > > people?

> > > > >

> > > > > Will board members and owners of Certification exams share in

> > the

> > > > > revenues of courses?

> > > > >

> > > > > Shall we assume your company will seek certification for

> > > Oncology,

> > > > > Diabetes, etc., so in a way we can anticipate having to obtain

> > > > > certification in every area of our medicine? So if you

> > practice

> > > > > anything other than reproductive medicine, we can consider you

> > > do

> > > > > not have the knowledge to effectively practice because you are

> > > not

> > > > > certified?

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks, much appreciated.

> > > > >

> > > > > David

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

--

Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME

chusauli

See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com

September 6, 2007

Bill,

Interesting point. I certainly can't speak to any legal

ramifications. Furthermore, I do not mean to imply that there is NOT

A SINGLE non-certified person who is as qualified as the least

qualified certified person.

Of course there will be some, and perhaps many hihgly qualifed

acupuncture experts that choose not to become certified. However, I

am speaking from a lot of 'down in the trenches' clinical experience

when I say that there are a good number of people practicing out

there who accept and treat fertility cases who are NOT qualified and

who do not possess the requisite expertise to properly handle such

cases.

This kind of specialized knowledge is not part of the basic

acupuncture training. So, without something like the ABORM to help

to draw distinctions, how will doctors or potential patients be able

to distinguish from among the so-called 'experts?'

David Karchmer

Chinese Medicine , Bill Mosca

<mosca wrote:

>

> David (K),

>

> This happened to catch my eye enough to warrant a quick reply.

>

> On Sep 6, 2007, at 9:43 AM, David Karchmer wrote:

> > There is a difference in knowledge and expertise between an

> > acupuncturist who IS ABORM certified, and one who is NOT ABORM

> > certified.

>

> While a voluntary certification does indicate that a certificant

> meets some minimal qualifications, knowledge, or competency, it

does

> not--in any way--indicate that a certificant's qualifications,

> knowledge, or competency exceed those of non-certified

individuals.

> In fact, the absence of certification says nothing about non-

> certified individuals other than they chose not to seek voluntary

> certification.

>

> Such claims, if made by the certification program itself, would

> expose it to a variety of antitrust and tort liability challenges.

>

> Regards,

> Bill Mosca, LAc

>

September 6, 2007

David,

I don't think ABORM publishes its areas of competency on the

website, I'll have to check on that.They do publish their reading

list on the website.

I will be happy to send you the areas of competency covered by the

exam.

You do raise interesting points about who is and is not more

qualified, but consider this:

One is not eligible to sit for the ABORM exam unless they have at

least two years of post-graduate clinical experience.

Secondly, it is highly unlikely that a person without specialized

expertise in Reproductive Medicine and Infertility will pass the

exam. Therefore, so your license, your DAOM, DOM, PH.D do not, as

you suggest, take a backseat to ABORM certification. Neither would

10, 20, 30 years of experience take a back seat to a new test.

Because they are apples and oranges.

Here is why - 30 years of general clinical experience, of a DAOM, of

a P.hD do not necessarily bestow a specialized understanding of IVF,

IUI, or Reproductive Medicine. Certainly a DAOM does not ensure that

one has a specialized understanding of OB/GYN or Infertility. If a

practitioner has only 3 years of clinical experience, but has

devoted themselves fully to the concepts of reproductive medicine,

then " yes, " they are probably better qualified in this area than a

DAOM, P.hD with 30 years of clinical experience who has not

specialized in reproduction.

Who is better qualified to perform an IVF?

a) A first year OB/GYN who has been Board Certified in Reproductive

Endocrinology and Infertility for one week

b) An orthapedic surgeon with 35 years of experience?

If you picked " a, " then I hope you will agree that superfluous

credentials (like a DAOM) and years of unrelated clinical experience

do not bestow any kind of specialized knowledge or expertise.

However, a focused exam that specifically tests for such specialized

understanding and expertise IS much more accurate indicator of a

practitioners proficiency in that area.

David Karchmer

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

<flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> Hi David:

>

> Thanks for your insight. As I mentioned I support all educational

> processes. Your post highlights my concern of how " Certification "

> will be used, it appears you view this certification as a way to

> separate yourself from all other licensed healthcare practioners,

it

> elevates you from others, it is a tool to work with others, that

we

> are competiting to work with Physicians and patients based on

> Certification, passing an exam with no legal standing, no

licensing

> standing, no approval by an agency with any regulatory authority.

>

> So our license, our DAOM, DOM, PH.D; 10, 20, 30 years of

experience

> takes a back seat to a new test, a test not approved by any

> authority that grants licenses, is this how you want this

> certification promoted?

>

> As whether Certified people have advanced knowledge, that remains

to

> be seen and it depends on how you define advanced knowledge, if

you

> mean a good command of common chinese medical knowlege from the

> common books in our educational process, I would not call this

> advanced Acupuncture knowledge.

>

> WHO is saying this exam contains advanced Acupuncture knowledge?

> Where can we see the material of this advanced Acupuncture? Before

I

> spend $700-$1000, I would like to see the " Advanced " Level of

> Acupuncture that reflects this Advanced Level of Certification.

Can

> you show me where to find this and not just the topics listed on

> their website, it gives no real detail.

>

> Thank You and Best Wishes,

>

> david

>

September 6, 2007

David, below I have listed the reference books offerred as study

guides to ABORM certification candidates. These are the suggested

books for study and preparation, and are used to draw exam questions

Below that I have listed the areas of competency that are to be

tested.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you are making an

argument against ABORM without coming right out and saying it. I am

haveing to read between the lines of some of your posts, but I think

you are arguing agains the formation of specialty boards.

Furthermore, (and again correct me if I am wrong) I believe that you

are suggesting that ALL acupuncturists are equally trained and

qualified to treat all types of disorders.

But, you did not answer the question that I posed in my last post

about who is more qualified to perform and IVF: a beginning

infertility specialist, or a seasoned veteran of orthepedic surgery.

And I do not understand how you can look at the reading list and

list of competencies below and assert that all acupuncturists

possess a fundemental working knowledge of reproductive medicine,

and are therefore all equally qualified to treat infertility and

reproductive disorders.

Do I understand yo ucorrectly? Is that not what you are suggesting?

That every acupuncturist is equally qualified to treat every type of

disorder?

David Karchmer

ABORM REFERENCE TEXTS

http://www.aborm.org/index.php?page_id=19

âž¢ Reproductive Endocrinology: Yen & Jaffe, Strauss, Barbieri.

Elsevier Press. 5th Edit.

âž¢ Infertility in Practice: Balen & Jacobs. Churchill Livingstone

Press. 2nd Edit.

âž¢ Obstetrics and Gynecology in : Maciocia. Churchill

Livingstone Press.

âž¢ The Infertility Cure: Lewis. Little Brown Press.

âž¢ Treatment of Infertility with : Lyttleton.

Churchill Livingstone Press.

âž¢ Obstetrics and Gynecology in : Yu Jin. Eastland

Press.

âž¢ Acupuncture & IVF: Lifang Liang. Blue Poppy Press.

âž¢ Chinese Medical Herbology & Pharmacology: Chen & Chen. Art of Med.

Press

âž¢ Chinese Herbal Medicine - Formulas & Strategies: Bensky & Barolet.

Eastland Press.

âž¢ Laboratory Values: Per Lab Values in Yen & Jaffe Text (Inside

Front Cover Page).

âž¢ Fulfilling the Essence: Bob Flaws. Blue Poppy Press.

âž¢ Notes from South Mountain: Andrew Ellis. Thin Moon Publishing.

âž¢ Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion (CAM): Chen Xinong. Foreign

Languages Press.

âž¢ Clinical Gynecologic Endocrinology and Infertility (7th Edition):

Speroff & Fritz. Lippencott Williams & Wilkins Press.

âž¢ Drug Facts and Comparisons 2007: Wolters Kluwer Health Publishers

ABORM COMPETENCIES & REFERENCE TEXT LIST

http://www.aborm.org/index.php?page_id=18

ABORM Competency Categories

(Western Reproductive Medicine)

1. Western Reproductive Anatomy and Physiology: Female

2. Western Reproductive Anatomy and Physiology: Males

3. Western Reproductive Pathology and Differential Diagnosis for

Infertility

4. Diagnostic Methods: Imaging/Labs/Surgery/Indications

5. ART: Indications/Procedures/Terminology/Medications

6. Reproductive Immunology and Disorders

7. Early Pregnancy/Miscarriage/Recurrent Pregnancy Loss/Gestational

Disorders

8. Ethical Guidelines: When to treat. When to refer, when to let go.

(TCM Reproductive Medicine)

1. TCM Reproductive Anatomy and Physiology: Females

2. TCM Reproductive Anatomy and Physiology: Males

3. TCM Reproductive Pathology/Causes of Infertility

4. TCM Diagnosis and Disease Patterns related to Infertility

5. TCM Treatment of Infertility Disease Patterns: Acupuncture

6. TCM Treatment of Infertility Disease Patterns: Chinese Herbal

Medicine

7. TCM & ART: When to use Herbs and When to use Acupuncture

8. TCM treatment in Early Pregnancy

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

<flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> Hi David:

>

> ABORM lists reference books, and the list containing Acupuncture

in

> my view does not contain " Advanced Knowledge " , maybe someone can

> point it out to me, in detail if I am mistaken.

>

> How do you know who and who would not pass the exam? Its never

been

> given and I bet not written yet. In the state of california, we

have

> a rather tough state boaord exam compared to the Nationals, which

is

> an easy exam, there are some very sharp people out here and many

> very skilled in western medicine, I would not assume who could not

> pass the exam.

>

> I have intentially left out of our discussion the area of content,

> which I am sure can be an issue of contention among many in our

> professsion, maybe at some time more information on the specifics

> they are testing will come out and we can see what type

of " Advanced

> and Acupuncture " they are promoting and testing,

> its hard to discuss this based on the list of books. Why is this

> important? Because why are people defending and promoting a

> Certification that has never been granted, a test never given and

> discussed? How can people view this never given test and

> certification as the " seal of approval " as an expert in the field.

I

> have an MBA and sounds like the type of marketing I learned there.

>

> We can go round and round but I have identified my key issues, for

> myself and possible the silent group out there. I appreciate this

> list moderator for allowing this dialogue, otherwise our voice

most

> likely would not be heard.

>

> Best Wishes,

>

> David

>

September 6, 2007

David,

I understand that you think this topic is exhausted, but since you

made some statements in your last post about what I assume, I'd like

to set the record straight.

You said that I " assume the Chinese Medical Model and treatment

methods using acupuncture and herbs ABORM presents is definitive, it

may or may not be, but since we have not seen the test how do we

know? "

Let me be clear, I do not assume that the treatment methods tested

by ABORM are " Definitive. " What I believe, and what ABORM states as

its mission is that the standards set and tested by ABORM are Basic,

not definitive. ABORM seeks to test for minimum competency and basic

knowledge, not definitive understanding.

I would also like to respond to your words of caution:

" I would be very cautious about questioning Acupuncturists

knowledge as a whole, meaning all of us, its possible I can write an

exam on Acupuncture you will fail, does this mean you are not

competent to pratice any kind of Acupuncture? "

-

I do not question Acupuncturist's knowledge as a whole. I have been

an acupuncturist for 13 years and taught core curricullum classes at

a reputable acupuncture college for 8 years. So, I feel pretty

confident that I understand the basic training that is provided to

acupuncturists.

I am equally confident that there are acupuncturists practicing

reproductive medicine who are not qualified to do so. There are also

acupuncturists seeing fertility cases that ARE genuinely qualified

to do so.

Will the ABORM exam change that?? No.

Non-participation in the exam will not suddenly make those of us

involved in reproductive acupuncture unqualified. Those who are

qualified will remain just as qualified if they should choose not to

participate in the exam. Furthermore, those who are really not so

qualified will be utterly free to continue practicing reproductive

acupuncture without ever taking an exam.

So what will change?

People who are looking for an acupuncturist to help with fertility

issues will now have a credential to help guide them and a means of

assessing from among ALL of the acupuncturist who say they treat

fertility. They will know that ABORM certification means that the

acupuncturist possesses a basic and fundamental understanding of

both reproductive medicine and reproductive acupuncture.

And that is a very good thing for the patients and for the

profession.

David Karchmer

-- In

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

<flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> Hi David;

>

> I have reviewed the books before and stand by my past statements.

I

> am not against Specialty Boards, BUT:

>

> 1. I do not support promoting a certificate as confirmation

> of " Expert " before an exam is ever administered, there is no peer

> review by people outside their group, lets wait and see what it is

> before its considered the industry standard. What is passing? 70,

> 65, 75, 80? Is is scaled? We know nothing, how can this test be

> elevated before even the first test?

>

> 2. I do not support a written exam as a way to elevate one from

> their licensed peers, passing a test does not mean one knows how

to

> practice.

>

> 3. California Medical Board offers " authorized " Specialty Boards

and

> processes, they go through approved processes, it makes more sense

> to me to go that way. There is a consistency with the licensing

> agency, otherwise it is just an educational certificate.

>

> 4. I do not support " marketing " a Certificate on a grand scale

> as " Expert " that in a way implies others are inferior or

inadequete.

> This is about how one presents themselves, why not let the

> Certifiate stand on its own and earn its position on its own.

>

> 5. I dont support exluding other people's talent and ability based

> on them not taking a non-accredited, non-licensed test. Or not

> endorsed atleast be some accredited compnay, like a university of

> college of Acupuncture, which has their reputation and standard

> behind it, not individuals but the actual organization.

>

> 6. Im sure you will find varying degrees of Western Medical

> Knowledge among acupuncturists, but you assume the Chinese Medical

> Model and treatment methods using acupuncture and herbs ABORM

> presents is definitive, it may or may not be, but since we have

not

> seen the test how do we know? So why attempt to get people to

agree

> to this if we dont know whats on the test. Maybe at some time our

> profession can have a dialogue on this.

>

> I would be very cautious about questioning Acupuncturists

knowledge

> as a whole, meaning all of us, its possible I can write an exam on

> Acupuncture you will fail, does this mean you are not competent to

> pratice any kind of Acupuncture?

>

> Unless there are new issues I think we have beat this to a pulp,

> anything new on the topic I'm open to discussing. If you desire

the

> last word on this and past stuff, its yours.

>

> Best Wishes,

>

> David

>

> Chinese Medicine , " David

> Karchmer " <acuprof@> wrote:

> >

> > David, below I have listed the reference books offerred as study

> > guides to ABORM certification candidates. These are the

suggested

> > books for study and preparation, and are used to draw exam

> questions

> >

> > Below that I have listed the areas of competency that are to be

> > tested.

> >

> > Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you are making

an

> > argument against ABORM without coming right out and saying it. I

> am

> > haveing to read between the lines of some of your posts, but I

> think

> > you are arguing agains the formation of specialty boards.

> > Furthermore, (and again correct me if I am wrong) I believe that

> you

> > are suggesting that ALL acupuncturists are equally trained and

> > qualified to treat all types of disorders.

> >

> > But, you did not answer the question that I posed in my last

post

> > about who is more qualified to perform and IVF: a beginning

> > infertility specialist, or a seasoned veteran of orthepedic

> surgery.

> >

> > And I do not understand how you can look at the reading list and

> > list of competencies below and assert that all acupuncturists

> > possess a fundemental working knowledge of reproductive

medicine,

> > and are therefore all equally qualified to treat infertility and

> > reproductive disorders.

> >

> > Do I understand yo ucorrectly? Is that not what you are

> suggesting?

> > That every acupuncturist is equally qualified to treat every

type

> of

> > disorder?

> >

> > David Karchmer

> >

> > ABORM REFERENCE TEXTS

> >

> > http://www.aborm.org/index.php?page_id=19

> >

> > âž¢ Reproductive Endocrinology: Yen & Jaffe, Strauss, Barbieri.

> > Elsevier Press. 5th Edit.

> > âž¢ Infertility in Practice: Balen & Jacobs. Churchill Livingstone

> > Press. 2nd Edit.

> > âž¢ Obstetrics and Gynecology in : Maciocia.

> Churchill

> > Livingstone Press.

> > âž¢ The Infertility Cure: Lewis. Little Brown Press.

> > âž¢ Treatment of Infertility with : Lyttleton.

> > Churchill Livingstone Press.

> > âž¢ Obstetrics and Gynecology in : Yu Jin.

> Eastland

> > Press.

> > âž¢ Acupuncture & IVF: Lifang Liang. Blue Poppy Press.

> > âž¢ Chinese Medical Herbology & Pharmacology: Chen & Chen. Art of

> Med.

> > Press

> > âž¢ Chinese Herbal Medicine - Formulas & Strategies: Bensky &

> Barolet.

> > Eastland Press.

> > âž¢ Laboratory Values: Per Lab Values in Yen & Jaffe Text (Inside

> > Front Cover Page).

> > âž¢ Fulfilling the Essence: Bob Flaws. Blue Poppy Press.

> > âž¢ Notes from South Mountain: Andrew Ellis. Thin Moon Publishing.

> > âž¢ Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion (CAM): Chen Xinong.

> Foreign

> > Languages Press.

> > âž¢ Clinical Gynecologic Endocrinology and Infertility (7th

> Edition):

> > Speroff & Fritz. Lippencott Williams & Wilkins Press.

> > âž¢ Drug Facts and Comparisons 2007: Wolters Kluwer Health

> Publishers

> > --------------------------------

-

> >

> > ABORM COMPETENCIES & REFERENCE TEXT LIST

> >

> > http://www.aborm.org/index.php?page_id=18

> >

> > ABORM Competency Categories

> >

> > (Western Reproductive Medicine)

> >

> > 1. Western Reproductive Anatomy and Physiology: Female

> > 2. Western Reproductive Anatomy and Physiology: Males

> > 3. Western Reproductive Pathology and Differential Diagnosis for

> > Infertility

> > 4. Diagnostic Methods: Imaging/Labs/Surgery/Indications

> > 5. ART: Indications/Procedures/Terminology/Medications

> > 6. Reproductive Immunology and Disorders

> > 7. Early Pregnancy/Miscarriage/Recurrent Pregnancy

> Loss/Gestational

> > Disorders

> > 8. Ethical Guidelines: When to treat. When to refer, when to let

> go.

> >

> > (TCM Reproductive Medicine)

> >

> > 1. TCM Reproductive Anatomy and Physiology: Females

> > 2. TCM Reproductive Anatomy and Physiology: Males

> > 3. TCM Reproductive Pathology/Causes of Infertility

> > 4. TCM Diagnosis and Disease Patterns related to Infertility

> > 5. TCM Treatment of Infertility Disease Patterns: Acupuncture

> > 6. TCM Treatment of Infertility Disease Patterns: Chinese Herbal

> > Medicine

> > 7. TCM & ART: When to use Herbs and When to use Acupuncture

> > 8. TCM treatment in Early Pregnancy

> >

> > --- In

> >

>

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

> > <flyingstarsfengshui@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi David:

> > >

> > > ABORM lists reference books, and the list containing

Acupuncture

> > in

> > > my view does not contain " Advanced Knowledge " , maybe someone

can

> > > point it out to me, in detail if I am mistaken.

> > >

> > > How do you know who and who would not pass the exam? Its never

> > been

> > > given and I bet not written yet. In the state of california,

we

> > have

> > > a rather tough state boaord exam compared to the Nationals,

> which

> > is

> > > an easy exam, there are some very sharp people out here and

many

> > > very skilled in western medicine, I would not assume who could

> not

> > > pass the exam.

> > >

> > > I have intentially left out of our discussion the area of

> content,

> > > which I am sure can be an issue of contention among many in

our

> > > professsion, maybe at some time more information on the

> specifics

> > > they are testing will come out and we can see what type

> > of " Advanced

> > > and Acupuncture " they are promoting and

> testing,

> > > its hard to discuss this based on the list of books. Why is

this

> > > important? Because why are people defending and promoting a

> > > Certification that has never been granted, a test never given

> and

> > > discussed? How can people view this never given test and

> > > certification as the " seal of approval " as an expert in the

> field.

> > I

> > > have an MBA and sounds like the type of marketing I learned

> there.

> > >

> > > We can go round and round but I have identified my key issues,

> for

> > > myself and possible the silent group out there. I appreciate

> this

> > > list moderator for allowing this dialogue, otherwise our voice

> > most

> > > likely would not be heard.

> > >

> > > Best Wishes,

> > >

> > > David

> > >

> >

>

September 6, 2007

David,

I understand that you think this topic is exhausted, but since you

made some statements in your last post about what I assume, I'd like

to set the record straight.

You said that I " assume the Chinese Medical Model and treatment

methods using acupuncture and herbs ABORM presents is definitive, it

may or may not be, but since we have not seen the test how do we

know? "

Let me be clear, I do not assume that the treatment methods tested

by ABORM are " Definitive. " What I believe, and what ABORM states as

its mission is that the standards set and tested by ABORM are Basic,

not definitive. ABORM seeks to test for minimum competency and basic

knowledge, not definitive understanding.

I would also like to respond to your words of caution:

" I would be very cautious about questioning Acupuncturists

knowledge as a whole, meaning all of us, its possible I can write an

exam on Acupuncture you will fail, does this mean you are not

competent to pratice any kind of Acupuncture? "

-

I do not question Acupuncturist's knowledge as a whole. I have been

an acupuncturist for 13 years and taught core curricullum classes at

a reputable acupuncture college for 8 years. So, I feel pretty

confident that I understand the basic training that is provided to

acupuncturists.

I am equally confident that there are acupuncturists practicing

reproductive medicine who are not qualified to do so. There are also

acupuncturists seeing fertility cases that ARE genuinely qualified

to do so.

Will the ABORM exam change that?? No.

Non-participation in the exam will not suddenly make those of us

involved in reproductive acupuncture unqualified. Those who are

qualified will remain just as qualified if they should choose not to

participate in the exam. Furthermore, those who are really not so

qualified will be utterly free to continue practicing reproductive

acupuncture without ever taking an exam.

So what will change?

People who are looking for an acupuncturist to help with fertility

issues will now have a credential to help guide them and a means of

assessing from among ALL of the acupuncturist who say they treat

fertility. They will know that ABORM certification means that the

acupuncturist possesses a basic and fundamental understanding of

both reproductive medicine and reproductive acupuncture.

And that is a very good thing for the patients and for the

profession.

David Karchmer

-- In

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

<flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> Hi David;

>

> I have reviewed the books before and stand by my past statements.

I

> am not against Specialty Boards, BUT:

>

> 1. I do not support promoting a certificate as confirmation

> of " Expert " before an exam is ever administered, there is no peer

> review by people outside their group, lets wait and see what it is

> before its considered the industry standard. What is passing? 70,

> 65, 75, 80? Is is scaled? We know nothing, how can this test be

> elevated before even the first test?

>

> 2. I do not support a written exam as a way to elevate one from

> their licensed peers, passing a test does not mean one knows how

to

> practice.

>

> 3. California Medical Board offers " authorized " Specialty Boards

and

> processes, they go through approved processes, it makes more sense

> to me to go that way. There is a consistency with the licensing

> agency, otherwise it is just an educational certificate.

>

> 4. I do not support " marketing " a Certificate on a grand scale

> as " Expert " that in a way implies others are inferior or

inadequete.

> This is about how one presents themselves, why not let the

> Certifiate stand on its own and earn its position on its own.

>

> 5. I dont support exluding other people's talent and ability based

> on them not taking a non-accredited, non-licensed test. Or not

> endorsed atleast be some accredited compnay, like a university of

> college of Acupuncture, which has their reputation and standard

> behind it, not individuals but the actual organization.

>

> 6. Im sure you will find varying degrees of Western Medical

> Knowledge among acupuncturists, but you assume the Chinese Medical

> Model and treatment methods using acupuncture and herbs ABORM

> presents is definitive, it may or may not be, but since we have

not

> seen the test how do we know? So why attempt to get people to

agree

> to this if we dont know whats on the test. Maybe at some time our

> profession can have a dialogue on this.

>

> I would be very cautious about questioning Acupuncturists

knowledge

> as a whole, meaning all of us, its possible I can write an exam on

> Acupuncture you will fail, does this mean you are not competent to

> pratice any kind of Acupuncture?

>

> Unless there are new issues I think we have beat this to a pulp,

> anything new on the topic I'm open to discussing. If you desire

the

> last word on this and past stuff, its yours.

>

> Best Wishes,

>

> David

>

> Chinese Medicine , " David

> Karchmer " <acuprof@> wrote:

> >

> > David, below I have listed the reference books offerred as study

> > guides to ABORM certification candidates. These are the

suggested

> > books for study and preparation, and are used to draw exam

> questions

> >

> > Below that I have listed the areas of competency that are to be

> > tested.

> >

> > Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you are making

an

> > argument against ABORM without coming right out and saying it. I

> am

> > haveing to read between the lines of some of your posts, but I

> think

> > you are arguing agains the formation of specialty boards.

> > Furthermore, (and again correct me if I am wrong) I believe that

> you

> > are suggesting that ALL acupuncturists are equally trained and

> > qualified to treat all types of disorders.

> >

> > But, you did not answer the question that I posed in my last

post

> > about who is more qualified to perform and IVF: a beginning

> > infertility specialist, or a seasoned veteran of orthepedic

> surgery.

> >

> > And I do not understand how you can look at the reading list and

> > list of competencies below and assert that all acupuncturists

> > possess a fundemental working knowledge of reproductive

medicine,

> > and are therefore all equally qualified to treat infertility and

> > reproductive disorders.

> >

> > Do I understand yo ucorrectly? Is that not what you are

> suggesting?

> > That every acupuncturist is equally qualified to treat every

type

> of

> > disorder?

> >

> > David Karchmer

> >

> > ABORM REFERENCE TEXTS

> >

> > http://www.aborm.org/index.php?page_id=19

> >

> > âž¢ Reproductive Endocrinology: Yen & Jaffe, Strauss, Barbieri.

> > Elsevier Press. 5th Edit.

> > âž¢ Infertility in Practice: Balen & Jacobs. Churchill Livingstone

> > Press. 2nd Edit.

> > âž¢ Obstetrics and Gynecology in : Maciocia.

> Churchill

> > Livingstone Press.

> > âž¢ The Infertility Cure: Lewis. Little Brown Press.

> > âž¢ Treatment of Infertility with : Lyttleton.

> > Churchill Livingstone Press.

> > âž¢ Obstetrics and Gynecology in : Yu Jin.

> Eastland

> > Press.

> > âž¢ Acupuncture & IVF: Lifang Liang. Blue Poppy Press.

> > âž¢ Chinese Medical Herbology & Pharmacology: Chen & Chen. Art of

> Med.

> > Press

> > âž¢ Chinese Herbal Medicine - Formulas & Strategies: Bensky &

> Barolet.

> > Eastland Press.

> > âž¢ Laboratory Values: Per Lab Values in Yen & Jaffe Text (Inside

> > Front Cover Page).

> > âž¢ Fulfilling the Essence: Bob Flaws. Blue Poppy Press.

> > âž¢ Notes from South Mountain: Andrew Ellis. Thin Moon Publishing.

> > âž¢ Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion (CAM): Chen Xinong.

> Foreign

> > Languages Press.

> > âž¢ Clinical Gynecologic Endocrinology and Infertility (7th

> Edition):

> > Speroff & Fritz. Lippencott Williams & Wilkins Press.

> > âž¢ Drug Facts and Comparisons 2007: Wolters Kluwer Health

> Publishers

> > --------------------------------

-

> >

> > ABORM COMPETENCIES & REFERENCE TEXT LIST

> >

> > http://www.aborm.org/index.php?page_id=18

> >

> > ABORM Competency Categories

> >

> > (Western Reproductive Medicine)

> >

> > 1. Western Reproductive Anatomy and Physiology: Female

> > 2. Western Reproductive Anatomy and Physiology: Males

> > 3. Western Reproductive Pathology and Differential Diagnosis for

> > Infertility

> > 4. Diagnostic Methods: Imaging/Labs/Surgery/Indications

> > 5. ART: Indications/Procedures/Terminology/Medications

> > 6. Reproductive Immunology and Disorders

> > 7. Early Pregnancy/Miscarriage/Recurrent Pregnancy

> Loss/Gestational

> > Disorders

> > 8. Ethical Guidelines: When to treat. When to refer, when to let

> go.

> >

> > (TCM Reproductive Medicine)

> >

> > 1. TCM Reproductive Anatomy and Physiology: Females

> > 2. TCM Reproductive Anatomy and Physiology: Males

> > 3. TCM Reproductive Pathology/Causes of Infertility

> > 4. TCM Diagnosis and Disease Patterns related to Infertility

> > 5. TCM Treatment of Infertility Disease Patterns: Acupuncture

> > 6. TCM Treatment of Infertility Disease Patterns: Chinese Herbal

> > Medicine

> > 7. TCM & ART: When to use Herbs and When to use Acupuncture

> > 8. TCM treatment in Early Pregnancy

> >

> > --- In

> >

>

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

> > <flyingstarsfengshui@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi David:

> > >

> > > ABORM lists reference books, and the list containing

Acupuncture

> > in

> > > my view does not contain " Advanced Knowledge " , maybe someone

can

> > > point it out to me, in detail if I am mistaken.

> > >

> > > How do you know who and who would not pass the exam? Its never

> > been

> > > given and I bet not written yet. In the state of california,

we

> > have

> > > a rather tough state boaord exam compared to the Nationals,

> which

> > is

> > > an easy exam, there are some very sharp people out here and

many

> > > very skilled in western medicine, I would not assume who could

> not

> > > pass the exam.

> > >

> > > I have intentially left out of our discussion the area of

> content,

> > > which I am sure can be an issue of contention among many in

our

> > > professsion, maybe at some time more information on the

> specifics

> > > they are testing will come out and we can see what type

> > of " Advanced

> > > and Acupuncture " they are promoting and

> testing,

> > > its hard to discuss this based on the list of books. Why is

this

> > > important? Because why are people defending and promoting a

> > > Certification that has never been granted, a test never given

> and

> > > discussed? How can people view this never given test and

> > > certification as the " seal of approval " as an expert in the

> field.

> > I

> > > have an MBA and sounds like the type of marketing I learned

> there.

> > >

> > > We can go round and round but I have identified my key issues,

> for

> > > myself and possible the silent group out there. I appreciate

> this

> > > list moderator for allowing this dialogue, otherwise our voice

> > most

> > > likely would not be heard.

> > >

> > > Best Wishes,

> > >

> > > David

> > >

> >

>

September 7, 2007

David,

If this ABORM will give us a stronger status than a Regular

Acupuncture " a specialist " , will it give us a chance to work with

physicians or alone in a hospital?

Will one of the ABORM member or certified can get his seat anywhere

in a hospital? All we want to do is to have work !!! work !!!!!!! We

need something stronger than LAc, NACC, DOM, OMD or Ph.D to get our

foot in the hospital. If this certification will help us, I think we

will all go for it without further discussion.

The ABORM can do all the self-claimed " advanced ACUPUNCTURE IN

REPRODUCTIVE " it wants to. It is fine. Does this means that the true

acupuncturists are not qualified as they?

Do they have any seats or any authority to qualify us a position

anywhere in a hospital without any physician at all? After we are

certified, can we do that? Can we work in a hospital in REPRODUCTIVE

room without any physician?

I think we all TCM want is to be recognized everywhere so we can

have work or being hired to work somewhere. At this time, I think we

many of us wish to have a position in a hospital, but nothing happened.

BE REALISTIC !!! Our positions are not too good neither too strong

and we are not making a living. Why does this ABORM want to create

another hardship for Acupuncturists without giving them any benefit at

all? WHY ??? WHY ???

With the title of ABORM, what TCM can do with it? Show it around the

world that he or she is a member ? What is it for? We do not want

another piece of useless title " show-off certification " . We want to

work and have a job. Can you or any member of ABORM help us ?

Thanks,

Nam Nguyen

September 7, 2007

Nam,

I know that ABORM is interested in expanding acupuncture research,

and to do that will probably require partnerships with hospitals, RE

clinics. So, eventually better research will probably lead to an

increased TCM hospital presence, as most doctors base their

acceptance of acupuncture upon research oriented evidence.

As for your question, " With the title of ABORM, what TCM can do with

it? Show it around the world that he or she is a member ? What is it

for? We do not want another piece of useless title " show-off

certification " . We want to work and have a job. Can you or any

member of ABORM help us? "

I do not think you have read the posts I have contributed to this

thread. If you want to know my opinion of what ABORM is for, you can

listen to the interview I gave to Spence Pentland at

chinesemedicinetools.com, or you can actually read what I have

posted on this thread.

David Karchmer

Thanks,

Nam Nguyen

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 "

<dr_namnguyen58 wrote:

>

> David,

>

> If this ABORM will give us a stronger status than a Regular

> Acupuncture " a specialist " , will it give us a chance to work with

> physicians or alone in a hospital?

> Will one of the ABORM member or certified can get his seat

anywhere

> in a hospital? All we want to do is to have work !!! work !!!!!!!

We

> need something stronger than LAc, NACC, DOM, OMD or Ph.D to get our

> foot in the hospital. If this certification will help us, I think

we

> will all go for it without further discussion.

> The ABORM can do all the self-claimed " advanced ACUPUNCTURE IN

> REPRODUCTIVE " it wants to. It is fine. Does this means that the

true

> acupuncturists are not qualified as they?

> Do they have any seats or any authority to qualify us a position

> anywhere in a hospital without any physician at all? After we are

> certified, can we do that? Can we work in a hospital in

REPRODUCTIVE

> room without any physician?

> I think we all TCM want is to be recognized everywhere so we can

> have work or being hired to work somewhere. At this time, I think

we

> many of us wish to have a position in a hospital, but nothing

happened.

> BE REALISTIC !!! Our positions are not too good neither too

strong

> and we are not making a living. Why does this ABORM want to create

> another hardship for Acupuncturists without giving them any

benefit at

> all? WHY ??? WHY ???

> With the title of ABORM, what TCM can do with it? Show it around

the

> world that he or she is a member ? What is it for? We do not want

> another piece of useless title " show-off certification " . We want

to

> work and have a job. Can you or any member of ABORM help us ?

>

> Thanks,

> Nam Nguyen

>

September 7, 2007

David,

I went to the website of ABORM and I think this is not a bad idea

to have ABORM certification. Even though there is no benefit for us at

all, but it gives us a confidence that we have known our stuff.

If this is a non-profit, not costing TCM exams, everybody should

give it a try. What do we have to lose ?

Finally, I wish that this ABORM certification will give us a

stronger status , a special recognition in the future. Who knows ?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

I am sorry for my vision against this earlier.

Nam Nguyen

Chinese Medicine , " David Karchmer "

<acuprof wrote:

>

> Nam,

>

> I know that ABORM is interested in expanding acupuncture research,

> and to do that will probably require partnerships with hospitals, RE

> clinics. So, eventually better research will probably lead to an

> increased TCM hospital presence, as most doctors base their

> acceptance of acupuncture upon research oriented evidence.

>

> As for your question, " With the title of ABORM, what TCM can do with

> it? Show it around the world that he or she is a member ? What is it

> for? We do not want another piece of useless title " show-off

> certification " . We want to work and have a job. Can you or any

> member of ABORM help us? "

>

> I do not think you have read the posts I have contributed to this

> thread. If you want to know my opinion of what ABORM is for, you can

> listen to the interview I gave to Spence Pentland at

> chinesemedicinetools.com, or you can actually read what I have

> posted on this thread.

>

> David Karchmer

>

> Thanks,

> Nam Nguyen

>

> --- In

> Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 "

> <dr_namnguyen58@> wrote:

> >

> > David,

> >

> > If this ABORM will give us a stronger status than a Regular

> > Acupuncture " a specialist " , will it give us a chance to work with

> > physicians or alone in a hospital?

> > Will one of the ABORM member or certified can get his seat

> anywhere

> > in a hospital? All we want to do is to have work !!! work !!!!!!!

> We

> > need something stronger than LAc, NACC, DOM, OMD or Ph.D to get our

> > foot in the hospital. If this certification will help us, I think

> we

> > will all go for it without further discussion.

> > The ABORM can do all the self-claimed " advanced ACUPUNCTURE IN

> > REPRODUCTIVE " it wants to. It is fine. Does this means that the

> true

> > acupuncturists are not qualified as they?

> > Do they have any seats or any authority to qualify us a position

> > anywhere in a hospital without any physician at all? After we are

> > certified, can we do that? Can we work in a hospital in

> REPRODUCTIVE

> > room without any physician?

> > I think we all TCM want is to be recognized everywhere so we can

> > have work or being hired to work somewhere. At this time, I think

> we

> > many of us wish to have a position in a hospital, but nothing

> happened.

> > BE REALISTIC !!! Our positions are not too good neither too

> strong

> > and we are not making a living. Why does this ABORM want to create

> > another hardship for Acupuncturists without giving them any

> benefit at

> > all? WHY ??? WHY ???

> > With the title of ABORM, what TCM can do with it? Show it around

> the

> > world that he or she is a member ? What is it for? We do not want

> > another piece of useless title " show-off certification " . We want

> to

> > work and have a job. Can you or any member of ABORM help us ?

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Nam Nguyen

> >

>

September 7, 2007

This discussion seems to center around credibility and

the belief that an additional credential will lend

credibility in the eyes of patients and doctors.

My question is this: How much do doctors and patients

rely upon certifications to make the decision to work

with a practitioner?

I've been doing a lot of reading on marketing and my

general impression is that licenses and certifications

don't weigh heavily in the minds of decision-makers.

They're looking for someone they can trust, word of

mouth, and that ineffable feeling that " this

practitioner " is the right person for them, the

benefits.

Specialization is an excellent way to distinguish

oneself, the experts maintain, so I presume

credentialed or not that each practitioner will do

what it takes to develop their skill sets.

It sounds that this certification process may help in

standardizing approaches to fertility, but as Jarrett

and some of the novel approaches to conditions

discussed herein demonstrate, standardization rather

cuts short a fabulously dynamic approach to the body.

y.c.

http://vytalpathways.com

______________________________\

____

Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.

Answers - Check it out.

http://answers./dir/?link=list & sid=396545469

September 7, 2007

David,

I am sorry about this. This is a worthless piece of certification

for me which I have no use of it at all. If I have some use, it worths

$1,000.00 is not a problem.

I have to invest my time to study to get a useless ABORM. I do not

think only the ABORM have had experience in reproductive system and it

is not a solo of TCM technique. My friends and I have treated some

infertility cases sucessfully,probably by hitting jackpot. But we had

hit a lot of jackpots.

Thanks anyway,

Nam Nguyen

I do not support a fee exam.

Chinese Medicine ,

" flyingstarsfengshui " <flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> Hi Nam:

>

> Its not a free exam:

>

> " Early Registration - On or Before October 15th, 2007: Application

> and Manual Fee: $115.00. Registration Fee: $650.00

> Final Registration Deadline: On or Before December 15th, 2007:

> Application and Manual Fee: $115.00. Registration Fee: $850.00 "

>

> Looks like it is either $765 or $965.

>

> I asked questions early on how money is distributed because many

> people dont understand how a Non-Profit works, all companies need a

> positive cash flow, one way or another. Non Profit defines how the

> positive cash flow or profit is distributed, for example, a non

> profit can have profit or postive cash flow of $50,000. It is

> reinvested into the company, but the company pays salaries, etc. So

> staff/owners can make substantial salaries. Any accountants out

> there can clarify this too.

>

> I have nothing against profit making, just letting those that assume

> no money is made in a Non-Profit it is not true.

>

> Regards,

> david

>

> --- In

> Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 "

> <dr_namnguyen58@> wrote:

> >

> > David,

> >

> > I went to the website of ABORM and I think this is not a bad

> idea

> > to have ABORM certification. Even though there is no benefit for

> us at

> > all, but it gives us a confidence that we have known our stuff.

> > If this is a non-profit, not costing TCM exams, everybody

> should

> > give it a try. What do we have to lose ?

> > Finally, I wish that this ABORM certification will give us a

> > stronger status , a special recognition in the future. Who knows ?

> >

> > Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

> > I am sorry for my vision against this earlier.

> >

> > Nam Nguyen

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , " David

> Karchmer "

> > <acuprof@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nam,

> > >

> > > I know that ABORM is interested in expanding acupuncture

> research,

> > > and to do that will probably require partnerships with

> hospitals, RE

> > > clinics. So, eventually better research will probably lead to an

> > > increased TCM hospital presence, as most doctors base their

> > > acceptance of acupuncture upon research oriented evidence.

> > >

> > > As for your question, " With the title of ABORM, what TCM can do

> with

> > > it? Show it around the world that he or she is a member ? What

> is it

> > > for? We do not want another piece of useless title " show-off

> > > certification " . We want to work and have a job. Can you or any

> > > member of ABORM help us? "

> > >

> > > I do not think you have read the posts I have contributed to

> this

> > > thread. If you want to know my opinion of what ABORM is for, you

> can

> > > listen to the interview I gave to Spence Pentland at

> > > chinesemedicinetools.com, or you can actually read what I have

> > > posted on this thread.

> > >

> > > David Karchmer

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > > Nam Nguyen

> > >

> > > --- In

> > > Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 "

> > > <dr_namnguyen58@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > David,

> > > >

> > > > If this ABORM will give us a stronger status than a Regular

> > > > Acupuncture " a specialist " , will it give us a chance to work

> with

> > > > physicians or alone in a hospital?

> > > > Will one of the ABORM member or certified can get his seat

> > > anywhere

> > > > in a hospital? All we want to do is to have work !!!

> work !!!!!!!

> > > We

> > > > need something stronger than LAc, NACC, DOM, OMD or Ph.D to

> get our

> > > > foot in the hospital. If this certification will help us, I

> think

> > > we

> > > > will all go for it without further discussion.

> > > > The ABORM can do all the self-claimed " advanced ACUPUNCTURE

> IN

> > > > REPRODUCTIVE " it wants to. It is fine. Does this means that

> the

> > > true

> > > > acupuncturists are not qualified as they?

> > > > Do they have any seats or any authority to qualify us a

> position

> > > > anywhere in a hospital without any physician at all? After we

> are

> > > > certified, can we do that? Can we work in a hospital in

> > > REPRODUCTIVE

> > > > room without any physician?

> > > > I think we all TCM want is to be recognized everywhere so we

> can

> > > > have work or being hired to work somewhere. At this time, I

> think

> > > we

> > > > many of us wish to have a position in a hospital, but nothing

> > > happened.

> > > > BE REALISTIC !!! Our positions are not too good neither too

> > > strong

> > > > and we are not making a living. Why does this ABORM want to

> create

> > > > another hardship for Acupuncturists without giving them any

> > > benefit at

> > > > all? WHY ??? WHY ???

> > > > With the title of ABORM, what TCM can do with it? Show it

> around

> > > the

> > > > world that he or she is a member ? What is it for? We do not

> want

> > > > another piece of useless title " show-off certification " . We

> want

> > > to

> > > > work and have a job. Can you or any member of ABORM help us ?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> > > > Nam Nguyen

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

September 7, 2007

Nam,

You are making me chuckle!! Let's see if I got the math right - I

got 1 reversal of position per post for the last 3 posts.

Thanks for participating in the dialogue. Please let me know if you

change your mind. Again.

David Karchmer

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 "

<dr_namnguyen58 wrote:

>

> David,

> I am sorry about this. This is a worthless piece of

certification

> for me which I have no use of it at all. If I have some use, it

worths

> $1,000.00 is not a problem.

> I have to invest my time to study to get a useless ABORM. I do

not

> think only the ABORM have had experience in reproductive system

and it

> is not a solo of TCM technique. My friends and I have treated some

> infertility cases sucessfully,probably by hitting jackpot. But we

had

> hit a lot of jackpots.

>

> Thanks anyway,

> Nam Nguyen

> I do not support a fee exam.

>

> Chinese Medicine ,

> " flyingstarsfengshui " <flyingstarsfengshui@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Nam:

> >

> > Its not a free exam:

> >

> > " Early Registration - On or Before October 15th, 2007:

Application

> > and Manual Fee: $115.00. Registration Fee: $650.00

> > Final Registration Deadline: On or Before December 15th, 2007:

> > Application and Manual Fee: $115.00. Registration Fee: $850.00 "

> >

> > Looks like it is either $765 or $965.

> >

> > I asked questions early on how money is distributed because many

> > people dont understand how a Non-Profit works, all companies

need a

> > positive cash flow, one way or another. Non Profit defines how

the

> > positive cash flow or profit is distributed, for example, a non

> > profit can have profit or postive cash flow of $50,000. It is

> > reinvested into the company, but the company pays salaries, etc.

So

> > staff/owners can make substantial salaries. Any accountants out

> > there can clarify this too.

> >

> > I have nothing against profit making, just letting those that

assume

> > no money is made in a Non-Profit it is not true.

> >

> > Regards,

> > david

> >

> > --- In

> > Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 "

> > <dr_namnguyen58@> wrote:

> > >

> > > David,

> > >

> > > I went to the website of ABORM and I think this is not a

bad

> > idea

> > > to have ABORM certification. Even though there is no benefit

for

> > us at

> > > all, but it gives us a confidence that we have known our stuff.

> > > If this is a non-profit, not costing TCM exams, everybody

> > should

> > > give it a try. What do we have to lose ?

> > > Finally, I wish that this ABORM certification will give us

a

> > > stronger status , a special recognition in the future. Who

knows ?

> > >

> > > Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

> > > I am sorry for my vision against this earlier.

> > >

> > > Nam Nguyen

> > >

> > > Chinese Medicine , " David

> > Karchmer "

> > > <acuprof@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nam,

> > > >

> > > > I know that ABORM is interested in expanding acupuncture

> > research,

> > > > and to do that will probably require partnerships with

> > hospitals, RE

> > > > clinics. So, eventually better research will probably lead

to an

> > > > increased TCM hospital presence, as most doctors base their

> > > > acceptance of acupuncture upon research oriented evidence.

> > > >

> > > > As for your question, " With the title of ABORM, what TCM can

do

> > with

> > > > it? Show it around the world that he or she is a member ?

What

> > is it

> > > > for? We do not want another piece of useless title " show-

off

> > > > certification " . We want to work and have a job. Can you or

any

> > > > member of ABORM help us? "

> > > >

> > > > I do not think you have read the posts I have contributed to

> > this

> > > > thread. If you want to know my opinion of what ABORM is for,

you

> > can

> > > > listen to the interview I gave to Spence Pentland at

> > > > chinesemedicinetools.com, or you can actually read what I

have

> > > > posted on this thread.

> > > >

> > > > David Karchmer

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> > > > Nam Nguyen

> > > >

> > > > --- In

> > > >

Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 "

> > > > <dr_namnguyen58@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > David,

> > > > >

> > > > > If this ABORM will give us a stronger status than a

Regular

> > > > > Acupuncture " a specialist " , will it give us a chance to

work

> > with

> > > > > physicians or alone in a hospital?

> > > > > Will one of the ABORM member or certified can get his

seat

> > > > anywhere

> > > > > in a hospital? All we want to do is to have work !!!

> > work !!!!!!!

> > > > We

> > > > > need something stronger than LAc, NACC, DOM, OMD or Ph.D

to

> > get our

> > > > > foot in the hospital. If this certification will help us,

I

> > think

> > > > we

> > > > > will all go for it without further discussion.

> > > > > The ABORM can do all the self-claimed " advanced

ACUPUNCTURE

> > IN

> > > > > REPRODUCTIVE " it wants to. It is fine. Does this means

that

> > the

> > > > true

> > > > > acupuncturists are not qualified as they?

> > > > > Do they have any seats or any authority to qualify us a

> > position

> > > > > anywhere in a hospital without any physician at all? After

we

> > are

> > > > > certified, can we do that? Can we work in a hospital in

> > > > REPRODUCTIVE

> > > > > room without any physician?

> > > > > I think we all TCM want is to be recognized everywhere

so we

> > can

> > > > > have work or being hired to work somewhere. At this time,

I

> > think

> > > > we

> > > > > many of us wish to have a position in a hospital, but

nothing

> > > > happened.

> > > > > BE REALISTIC !!! Our positions are not too good neither

too

> > > > strong

> > > > > and we are not making a living. Why does this ABORM want

to

> > create

> > > > > another hardship for Acupuncturists without giving them

any

> > > > benefit at

> > > > > all? WHY ??? WHY ???

> > > > > With the title of ABORM, what TCM can do with it? Show

it

> > around

> > > > the

> > > > > world that he or she is a member ? What is it for? We do

not

> > want

> > > > > another piece of useless title " show-off certification " .

We

> > want

> > > > to

> > > > > work and have a job. Can you or any member of ABORM help

us ?

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > Nam Nguyen

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

September 7, 2007

YC,

You are absolutely right. Rather, I should say that my experience

resonates with the point you are making. A lot of people base their

decision on a feeling. They choose the practitioner that " feels

right " to them.

However, I have found that it is equally true that many people use

the practitioners credentials and experience to form such feelings.

And, even more specifically, many people use a practitioners

credentials and experience to determine whether or not to make the

initial call. A potential patient or a referring physician must have

something to go on, if they haven't met you yet. How they " feel " in

your office or in your presence cannot inform their decision to make

an initial call. What will inform that critical decision?

Credentials, training and experience.

And, in a larger market where MANY practitioners specialize in the

same area (like infertility), having such a credenntial may just

help potential patients to feel more at ease, and more confident in

their choice knowing that, if nothing else, they can rest assured

knowing that their acupuncturist has mastered the fundamental

concepts of reproductive medicine.

David Karchmer

Chinese Medicine , Yangchu Higgins

<ycmgh wrote:

>

> This discussion seems to center around credibility and

> the belief that an additional credential will lend

> credibility in the eyes of patients and doctors.

>

> My question is this: How much do doctors and patients

> rely upon certifications to make the decision to work

> with a practitioner?

>

> I've been doing a lot of reading on marketing and my

> general impression is that licenses and certifications

> don't weigh heavily in the minds of decision-makers.

> They're looking for someone they can trust, word of

> mouth, and that ineffable feeling that " this

> practitioner " is the right person for them, the

> benefits.

>

> Specialization is an excellent way to distinguish

> oneself, the experts maintain, so I presume

> credentialed or not that each practitioner will do

> what it takes to develop their skill sets.

>

> It sounds that this certification process may help in

> standardizing approaches to fertility, but as Jarrett

> and some of the novel approaches to conditions

> discussed herein demonstrate, standardization rather

> cuts short a fabulously dynamic approach to the body.

>

> y.c.

> http://vytalpathways.com

>

___________________

_______________

> Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone

who knows. Answers - Check it out.

> http://answers./dir/?link=list & sid=396545469

>

September 8, 2007

a well thought-out, insightful group of questions. thank you for your

post. i look foward the responces to these questions.

kb

On 9/5/07, flyingstarsfengshui <flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> Hello David:

>

> I was reading information from your ABORM and have some questions

> maybe you can help me with, Im trying to understand your company and

> how it works and what we can anticipate for the future.

> I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

>

> " The ABORM has been formed by leading professionals in Oriental

> Reproductive Medicine who have come together voluntarily with a

> resolve to meet the patient and physician demand for a demonstration

> of knowledge of care in this field. "

> ***********************************

> Has State Board and National Licensing Agencies stated that the

> licensed practioners are not qualified to practice in this field. If

> I read your statement properly, can't one argue that this is true

> for every field of medicine?

>

> " We have recognized the need for a certification to maintain that

> practitioners who are treating patients with Oriental Medicine in

> the field of Reproductive Health are doing so with an advanced

> knowledge and experience, and to allow practitioners to demonstrate

> their knowledge through the process of voluntary examination. "

> ***************************

> Has any Acupuncture licensing agencies approved your exams?

>

> Has any Acupuncture licensing agencies granted you approval to

> create certification? It seems you are impying this exam is much

> more than a CEU course.

>

> Is there any reason you have not saught some legal certifiation from

> the organization that grant that in our profession?

>

> research, and the practice of Oriental Medicine as it relates to the

> treatment of reproductive disorders. "

> **********************************

>

> Will there be salaries to organizational members?

>

> Will the courses be part of non-profit organization or For Profit

> people?

>

> Will board members and owners of Certification exams share in the

> revenues of courses?

>

> Shall we assume to see AB for Oncology, Diabetes, etc?

>

> Will your company seek to try to require this certification

> throughout the health professional, at the detriment of licensed

> practitioners, shall we veiw your organization as competition, as a

> group setting practitioner against practitioner?

>

> Thanks, much appreciated.

>

> David

>

--

Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

September 8, 2007

Guys,

To be honest I feel this is going round and round in circles. I think we all

know where people stand on this. We have some very good pros and some

equally good cons to this Board.

I going to have to say I have had the privilege and opportunity to work with

some of the members and I believe their intent to be true of heart and from

what I see on a regular basis from the politics that surrounds our industry,

frustration.

Just recently one of the Irish boards of Acupuncture ICTCM has been

disbanded due to questionable activities and this organisation would have

represented 70% of acupuncturists in Ireland. So I think it is also

important to look at the value of what ABORM can bring to us all, once it

satisfies certain criteria.

Gordon.

On 9/8/07, wrote:

>

> a well thought-out, insightful group of questions. thank you for your

> post. i look foward the responces to these questions.

>

> kb

>

> On 9/5/07, flyingstarsfengshui

<flyingstarsfengshui<flyingstarsfengshui%40>>

> wrote:

> >

> > Hello David:

> >

> > I was reading information from your ABORM and have some questions

> > maybe you can help me with, Im trying to understand your company and

> > how it works and what we can anticipate for the future.

> > I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

> >

> > " The ABORM has been formed by leading professionals in Oriental

> > Reproductive Medicine who have come together voluntarily with a

> > resolve to meet the patient and physician demand for a demonstration

> > of knowledge of care in this field. "

> > ***********************************

> > Has State Board and National Licensing Agencies stated that the

> > licensed practioners are not qualified to practice in this field. If

> > I read your statement properly, can't one argue that this is true

> > for every field of medicine?

> >

> > " We have recognized the need for a certification to maintain that

> > practitioners who are treating patients with Oriental Medicine in

> > the field of Reproductive Health are doing so with an advanced

> > knowledge and experience, and to allow practitioners to demonstrate

> > their knowledge through the process of voluntary examination. "

> > ***************************

> > Has any Acupuncture licensing agencies approved your exams?

> >

> > Has any Acupuncture licensing agencies granted you approval to

> > create certification? It seems you are impying this exam is much

> > more than a CEU course.

> >

> > Is there any reason you have not saught some legal certifiation from

> > the organization that grant that in our profession?

> >

> > research, and the practice of Oriental Medicine as it relates to the

> > treatment of reproductive disorders. "

> > **********************************

> >

> > Will there be salaries to organizational members?

> >

> > Will the courses be part of non-profit organization or For Profit

> > people?

> >

> > Will board members and owners of Certification exams share in the

> > revenues of courses?

> >

> > Shall we assume to see AB for Oncology, Diabetes, etc?

> >

> > Will your company seek to try to require this certification

> > throughout the health professional, at the detriment of licensed

> > practitioners, shall we veiw your organization as competition, as a

> > group setting practitioner against practitioner?

> >

> > Thanks, much appreciated.

> >

> > David

> >

>

> --

>

> Oriental Medicine

> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

>

> Asheville Center For

> 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> kbartlett <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

> www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

>

September 8, 2007

Kath and David,

I agree that David poses some very valid and interesting questions.

But, instead of posing them hypothetically on a public chat board,

why not ask them directly to the ppeople who have the actual

answers??

And, perhaps even more importantly, instead of trying to generate a

sense of public hysteria about the evil spectre of specialty boards,

why not LISTEN to the actual answers to those questions before

drawing your conclusions?

David Karchmer

Chinese Medicine , " Kath Bartlett,

MS, LAc " wrote:

>

> a well thought-out, insightful group of questions. thank you for

your

> post. i look foward the responces to these questions.

>

> kb

>

> On 9/5/07, flyingstarsfengshui <flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

> >

> > Hello David:

> >

> > I was reading information from your ABORM and have some questions

> > maybe you can help me with, Im trying to understand your company

and

> > how it works and what we can anticipate for the future.

> > I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

> >

> > " The ABORM has been formed by leading professionals in Oriental

> > Reproductive Medicine who have come together voluntarily with a

> > resolve to meet the patient and physician demand for a

demonstration

> > of knowledge of care in this field. "

> > ***********************************

> > Has State Board and National Licensing Agencies stated that the

> > licensed practioners are not qualified to practice in this

field. If

> > I read your statement properly, can't one argue that this is true

> > for every field of medicine?

> >

> > " We have recognized the need for a certification to maintain that

> > practitioners who are treating patients with Oriental Medicine in

> > the field of Reproductive Health are doing so with an advanced

> > knowledge and experience, and to allow practitioners to

demonstrate

> > their knowledge through the process of voluntary examination. "

> > ***************************

> > Has any Acupuncture licensing agencies approved your exams?

> >

> > Has any Acupuncture licensing agencies granted you approval to

> > create certification? It seems you are impying this exam is much

> > more than a CEU course.

> >

> > Is there any reason you have not saught some legal certifiation

from

> > the organization that grant that in our profession?

> >

teaching,

> > research, and the practice of Oriental Medicine as it relates to

the

> > treatment of reproductive disorders. "

> > **********************************

> >

> > Will there be salaries to organizational members?

> >

> > Will the courses be part of non-profit organization or For Profit

> > people?

> >

> > Will board members and owners of Certification exams share in the

> > revenues of courses?

> >

> > Shall we assume to see AB for Oncology, Diabetes, etc?

> >

> > Will your company seek to try to require this certification

> > throughout the health professional, at the detriment of licensed

> > practitioners, shall we veiw your organization as competition,

as a

> > group setting practitioner against practitioner?

> >

> > Thanks, much appreciated.

> >

> > David

> >

>

> --

> Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

> Oriental Medicine

> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

>

> Asheville Center For

> 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> kbartlett

> www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

>

September 8, 2007

David,

Once again, we are in partial agreement. I also think that an open

discussion is wonderful, and that your questions are fair. However,

your questions are being asked within the context created by your

earlier posts - namely, that you do not support the process of the

ABORM and that you are against specialty boards.

Within that context, these questions seem inflammatory, and serve the

purpose of " whipping up " public dissent more than seeking actual

information. What I am saying is that the ACTUAL answers to your

questions are probably readily available if you were to direct them

to officials of the organization. Because you chose to post those

kinds of questions rhetorically in a public forum (where actual

answers are unlikely), instead of directing them toward someone with

the actual data you are asking about, it suggests to me that the

purpose of asking such things was more polemic than it was earnest.

Furthermore, if you (or others who so vocally oppose the ABORM) are

genuinely interested in the answers to such questions, I ask again -

Why not do your homework and get those questions answered BEFORE

assuming the worst and using rhetorical scare tactics to propogate

your anti-ABORM agenda?

David Karchmer

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

<flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> Good Morning David:

>

> I actually think having an open discussion on this topic is

> wonderful, not private dialogue. If an organization publically

> promotes their exam and presents its benefits then its all public.

I

> thnk all my questions are very basic, fair and normal due process,

> especially if I'm going to spend around $1,000.

>

> I would love to hear responses to our questions here, lets use this

> open forum to fully understand the Certificate and how it will be

> used and how non-certified Licensed Practitioners will need to

> respond to it to the public and healthcare community.

>

> I do think how Certification is marketed has consequences for each

> of us in our profession, why would any practitioner support

> something without knowing the details and possible ramifications.

>

> I'm am ready and willing to listen.

>

> Thanks for your participation and best wishes,

>

> David

>

September 8, 2007

I have a practice that focuses on women's health and I wholeheartedly agree with

the point that was made about PCOS (with no hurtful intention to Andrea Beth as

I personally know her as we were in the same class together and she definately

knows her stuff, I'd defer to her on autoimmune anyday). I would look like a

complete jacka** if someone came into me for a gyn or fertility issue which I

profess to have specialized knowledge in, and didn't know what PCOS is. Anyone

who works in this specialty is going to know PCOS as it is a common diagnosis

that walks through our/my doors. Which furthers my belief that specialization

is a good thing, if you work day in & day out with particular issues you

understand them and understand what works & doesn't work for them TCM or WM.

While I am not signed up at this point to take the exam I think the idea in

general is a good one and may consider taking it if it's makeup and intentions

becomes clearer. Just as I would support other specializations in TCM. If we

want to be credible in our society, this is a way to show increased knowledge

that is a start in the right direction. Western medicine has specialties and

general practitioners and it works quite well at least for me when I am deciding

on who to go to.

All this aside, my main intent on this email, is that I must commend David for

pretty much handling & fielding questions left and right and maintaining dignity

and addressing concerns, especially as he doesn't seem to be affiliated or have

any vested interest in the board issues of ABORM. I don't know David, never

heard of him but just thought he deserves a pat on the back.

Julie

September 8, 2007

What I would be curious to know is that since this test is not cheap in the

slightest, where is this money going or into whose pockets? I am concerned this

could just be a way to make money for the board.

Julie

September 8, 2007

One last question - ABORM seems focused on fertility, is this true or does it

span women's health?

Julie

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