pregnancy tx's

March 21, 2006

I had research modules as part of my standard BSc in TCM. They were worth

while and I learned alot. I'm now able to read and understand an RCT and the

other different aspects of research. As this is one of the biggest problems

TCM faces in the west; getting included into primary care via RCT evidence,

research modules should be compulsory for all TCM courses. To be honest, I'm

shocked that they are not.

Warm regards,

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M.

Editor

Times

+44 (0) 208 367 8378

enquiries

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

suecochrane36

21 March 2006 00:22

Chinese Medicine

Re: pregnancy tx's

I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/ at

University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism

from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as

compulsory units. There is much discussion of whether we are taking

TCM off-track by such an emphasis on western scientific method. Some

of our first graduating students argue that they can now read

research reports critically and understand the flaws and biases

within the available research. Surely a skill we should value. But

I am about to send an email to a student who is considering

withdrawing because of this emphasis within the course! Just as

well TCM is a diverse church!

Sue

Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus

DOM " <alonmarcus wrote:

>

> I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and

> even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of

very

> bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky

ways,

> and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done

> poorly or just erroneously.

> >>>>>

> How true

>

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

> -

> leabun1

> Chinese Medicine

> Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:21 PM

> Re: pregnancy tx's

>

> Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still

think

> you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be

> possible that there were other factors of your treatment

> (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your

patients

> high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus

the

> candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or

type

> 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you

never

> know, you may be right.

> Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all

pregnant

> women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood

> sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to

> candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth

when

> pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are

> underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does

> spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however

indicate

> that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may

have a

> higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite.

>

> What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not

necessarily

> directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it

> personally.

> I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies

and

> even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of

very

> bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky

ways,

> and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done

> poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in

the

> vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im

not

> going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there

have

> been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over

time)

> Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was

used

> in the first place. One study that was never intended by the

> researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as

> evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the

original

> evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth)

and

> if you actually manage to track down the original information,

it

> generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed to

it

> in the first place.

>

> Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese

medicine

> could use a little more training in western scientific method,

> because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their

> treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results

in a

> more analytical way.

> Of course this works the other way too, and there are many

studies

> that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being

> researched because the methodology, from a

> standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was

good.

> So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner

need

> this training and need to be doing these studies themselves.

>

> Chinese Medicine ,

> stephenmacallan@ wrote:

> >

> > Hiya

> > >

> > > Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root

of

> all

> > > evil " people?

> >

> > No, I`m not rabid.

> >

> > Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out.

> > > Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal

bowel

> > > flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most

definitely

> part

> > > of the normal flora of the vagina.

> >

> > I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted -

its a

> balance

> > issue, not an infection issue.

> >

> > > Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin

> > > resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar

> levels.

> > > That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant

women

> are

> > > more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with

> changes

> > > to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A

> slightly

> > > higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy

> progresses,

> > > or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often

combined

> with

> > > other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE

> pregnancy

> > > related diabetes is the " gestational " bit.

> >

> > Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy

> changes simply

> > make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy

caused

> caused a

> > diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would

get

> it, but not

> > all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get

diabetees

> when

> > pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the

pregnancy

> which were

> > sub-clinical before pregnancy.

> >

> > > Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora

of

> the

> > > genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it

is

> > > often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most

> certainly

> > > can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different

> strains,

> > > and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly

good

> at

> > > overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud "

or

> > > hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner

> leading

> > > to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors

such

> as

> > > overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract,

immunosuppression,

> > > antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it

worse.)

> This

> > > sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men

it

> is

> > > not so overt and can indeed be subclinical.

> > > If you have any concrete information to back up why you

believe

> that

> > > overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes,

please

> share

> > > it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such

a

> > > complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-)

> >

> > Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for

whom

> clearing (re-

> > balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the

`diabetes`.

> There`s been

> > a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve

diabetes,

> other factors

> > are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal

> poisoning,

> > parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe

20

> cases of

> > diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the

others

> improved

> > somewhat anyway.

> >

> > stephen

> >

> > > Regards,

> > > Lea.

> > >

> > > Chinese Medicine ,

> > > stephenmacallan@ wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hello,

> > > > thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes -

thrush

> is a

> > > symptom of

> > > > candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom

of

> > > candida

> > > > overgrowth in bowel also..

> > > >

> > > > regards

> > > >

> > > > stephen

> > > >

> > > > > Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth

> testing

> > > this lady's

> > > > > blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of

untreated

> > > diabetes. If her

> > > > > sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the

> thrush

> > > until her

> > > > > glucose level is reduced.

> > > > >

> > > > > Regards

> > > > > Susie Parkinson

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " leabun1 " <leabun1@>

> > > > > > Re: pregnancy tx's

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I think its the pregnancy hormones that

> > > > > > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and

higher

> blood

> > > sugar

> > > > > > levels.

> > > > >

> > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at

Chinese

> > > Medicine Times

> > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

> > > > >

> > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> > > > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

> > > > >

>

> > > and adjust

> > > > > accordingly.

> > > > >

> > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication

> outside

> > > the group

> > > > > requires prior permission from the author.

> > > > >

> > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this

message

> if

> > > absolutely

> > > > > necessary.

March 21, 2006

The more people scrutinising RCTs, especially those not bias to WM, the more

poor WM research will be undermined. We should all learn to read an RCT and

critique them.

There is also a real lack of TCM practitioners engaged in research into TCM.

Most of it is carried out by MDs with little or no knowledge of TCM, hence a

lot of the research done is flawed and useless.

Warm regards,

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M.

Editor

Times

+44 (0) 208 367 8378

enquiries

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike

Bowser

21 March 2006 00:31

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: pregnancy tx's

So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical studies

or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or change results? We

seem to uphold these are gospel. This trend is far more common then one

realizes as there is a lot of big pharma money depending upon the results.

One does not have to travel far to see inappropriate conclusions or

misinterpretations of data, it seems to be that the wilder the conclusion

the more it is believed. It all comes back to ethics and integrity.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " " <alonmarcus

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

>Re: Re: pregnancy tx's

>Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:47:03 -0800

>

>I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and

>even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very

>bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways,

>and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done

>poorly or just erroneously.

> >>>>>

>How true

>

>Oakland, CA 94609

>

> -

> leabun1

> Chinese Medicine

> Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:21 PM

> Re: pregnancy tx's

>

> Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still think

> you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be

> possible that there were other factors of your treatment

> (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your patients

> high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus the

> candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or type

> 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you never

> know, you may be right.

> Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all pregnant

> women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood

> sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to

> candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth when

> pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are

> underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does

> spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however indicate

> that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may have a

> higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite.

>

> What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not necessarily

> directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it

> personally.

> I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and

> even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very

> bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways,

> and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done

> poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in the

> vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im not

> going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there have

> been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over time)

> Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was used

> in the first place. One study that was never intended by the

> researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as

> evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the original

> evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth) and

> if you actually manage to track down the original information, it

> generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed to it

> in the first place.

>

> Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese medicine

> could use a little more training in western scientific method,

> because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their

> treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results in a

> more analytical way.

> Of course this works the other way too, and there are many studies

> that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being

> researched because the methodology, from a

> standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was good.

> So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner need

> this training and need to be doing these studies themselves.

>

> Chinese Medicine ,

> stephenmacallan wrote:

> >

> > Hiya

> > >

> > > Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root of

> all

> > > evil " people?

> >

> > No, I`m not rabid.

> >

> > Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out.

> > > Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal bowel

> > > flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most definitely

> part

> > > of the normal flora of the vagina.

> >

> > I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted - its a

> balance

> > issue, not an infection issue.

> >

> > > Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin

> > > resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar

> levels.

> > > That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant women

> are

> > > more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with

> changes

> > > to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A

> slightly

> > > higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy

> progresses,

> > > or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often combined

> with

> > > other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE

> pregnancy

> > > related diabetes is the " gestational " bit.

> >

> > Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy

> changes simply

> > make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy caused

> caused a

> > diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would get

> it, but not

> > all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get diabetees

> when

> > pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the pregnancy

> which were

> > sub-clinical before pregnancy.

> >

> > > Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora of

> the

> > > genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it is

> > > often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most

> certainly

> > > can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different

> strains,

> > > and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly good

> at

> > > overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " or

> > > hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner

> leading

> > > to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors such

> as

> > > overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, immunosuppression,

> > > antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it worse.)

> This

> > > sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men it

> is

> > > not so overt and can indeed be subclinical.

> > > If you have any concrete information to back up why you believe

> that

> > > overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, please

> share

> > > it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such a

> > > complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-)

> >

> > Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for whom

> clearing (re-

> > balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the `diabetes`.

> There`s been

> > a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve diabetes,

> other factors

> > are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal

> poisoning,

> > parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe 20

> cases of

> > diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the others

> improved

> > somewhat anyway.

> >

> > stephen

> >

> > > Regards,

> > > Lea.

> > >

> > > Chinese Medicine ,

> > > stephenmacallan@ wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hello,

> > > > thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - thrush

> is a

> > > symptom of

> > > > candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of

> > > candida

> > > > overgrowth in bowel also..

> > > >

> > > > regards

> > > >

> > > > stephen

> > > >

> > > > > Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth

> testing

> > > this lady's

> > > > > blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated

> > > diabetes. If her

> > > > > sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the

> thrush

> > > until her

> > > > > glucose level is reduced.

> > > > >

> > > > > Regards

> > > > > Susie Parkinson

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " leabun1 " <leabun1@>

> > > > > > Re: pregnancy tx's

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I think its the pregnancy hormones that

> > > > > > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher

> blood

> > > sugar

> > > > > > levels.

> > > > >

> > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese

> > > Medicine Times

> > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

> > > > >

> > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> > > > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

> > > > >

>

> > > and adjust

> > > > > accordingly.

> > > > >

> > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication

> outside

> > > the group

> > > > > requires prior permission from the author.

> > > > >

> > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message

> if

> > > absolutely

> > > > > necessary.

> > > > >

March 21, 2006

I totally agree with you Zev. We need to bend the RCT model to fit TCM and

not the other way round. At the moment, the RCT model only harms TCM by not

allowing a TCM pattern analysis into the inclusion/exclusion criteria.

Many have talked about TCM not needing to be evaluated using RCTs to get

into primary health care. This just isn't gonna happen. Having two thousand

years of history just isn't good enough, especially when no one was editing

the published texts, or evaluating the methods along the way.

Case studies are too bias to be included as rigorous research and can all to

easily be altered. Just look at some of the textbook case studies that get

published in many journals and you'll see they are just too perfect to be

true.

The rules of what is evidence based research need to be altered to take into

account TCM. I would categorise the main points as:

1. Pattern analysis in the inclusion/exclusion criteria,

2. Side effects off set against benefits (so WM is evaluated properly),

3. TCM is evaluated against the market leader and not a sham form of

therapy.

4. Long term follow up to evaluate the effects properly.

Warm regards,

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M.

Editor

Times

+44 (0) 208 367 8378

enquiries

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev

Rosenberg

21 March 2006 00:35

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: pregnancy tx's

The issue isn't so much whether practice should be evidence-based,

but what are the criteria for evidence? If only specific studies for

Chinese herbal medicines matched to biomedical diseases can be

included as evidence (without pattern differentiation), it will

pretty much eliminate any evidence for its efficacy. Two thousand

years of case histories would have to be discarded, and the pattern-

based studies done in mainland China in modern times as well. This

type of 'evidence' will lead to the complete exclusion of Chinese

medicine from modern health care.

If the concept of 'evidence' can include the case histories, pattern-

based studies of historical record as well as modern times, than

these criteria can be used.

" Evidence-based " medicine is an often culture-bound phenomenon as

presently expressed, that eliminates most of the useful criteria

already existing within the body of Chinese medicine.

On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:22 PM, suecochrane36 wrote:

> I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/ at

> University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism

> from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as

> compulsory units. There is much discussion of whether we are taking

> TCM off-track by such an emphasis on western scientific method. Some

> of our first graduating students argue that they can now read

> research reports critically and understand the flaws and biases

> within the available research. Surely a skill we should value. But

> I am about to send an email to a student who is considering

> withdrawing because of this emphasis within the course! Just as

> well TCM is a diverse church!

> Sue

March 21, 2006

mike Bowser wrote:

> So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical

> studies or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or

> change results?

Hi Mike!

Oh, yes. It appears to be a trend to just publish the conclusion, not

the method or (heaven forbid) the data. Maybe I just don't know where to

find the good stuff?

Regards,

Pete

March 21, 2006

Pete,

The one that I find incredible is a conclusion without any merit or that was

not even what was studied. Like the one I read awhile ago that studied

acupuncture for something but then concluded that LAc should not be in

practice.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>petetheisen <petetheisen

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Re: pregnancy tx's

>Tue, 21 Mar 2006 05:49:59 -0500

>

>mike Bowser wrote:

> > So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical

> > studies or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or

> > change results?

>

>Hi Mike!

>

>Oh, yes. It appears to be a trend to just publish the conclusion, not

>the method or (heaven forbid) the data. Maybe I just don't know where to

>find the good stuff?

>

>Regards,

>

>Pete

March 21, 2006

It is good science to be critical, that is what makes a good scientist. If

a study model does not fit the mold then find one that does work. I will

try to find Ted Kaptchuk's paper on this and why there is much concern with

trying to apply it what we do. It is also important to separate research

from real life practice. It sometimes sounds like we want to work in a

bubble with very limited variables, this is not possible or probable. On

the other hand, it is good to have info and know what and how to read

studies.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

>RE: Re: pregnancy tx's

>Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:40:22 -0000

>

>The more people scrutinising RCTs, especially those not bias to WM, the

>more

>poor WM research will be undermined. We should all learn to read an RCT and

>critique them.

>

>There is also a real lack of TCM practitioners engaged in research into

>TCM.

>Most of it is carried out by MDs with little or no knowledge of TCM, hence

>a

>lot of the research done is flawed and useless.

>

>Warm regards,

>

>Attilio D'Alberto

>Doctor of (Beijing, China)

>B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M.

>Editor

> Times

>+44 (0) 208 367 8378

>enquiries

> <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike

>Bowser

>21 March 2006 00:31

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Re: pregnancy tx's

>

>So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical studies

>or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or change results?

>We

>

>seem to uphold these are gospel. This trend is far more common then one

>realizes as there is a lot of big pharma money depending upon the results.

>One does not have to travel far to see inappropriate conclusions or

>misinterpretations of data, it seems to be that the wilder the conclusion

>the more it is believed. It all comes back to ethics and integrity.

>

>Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

> > " " <alonmarcus

> >Chinese Medicine

> ><Chinese Medicine >

> >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's

> >Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:47:03 -0800

> >

> >I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and

> >even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very

> >bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways,

> >and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done

> >poorly or just erroneously.

> > >>>>>

> >How true

> >

> >Oakland, CA 94609

> >

> > -

> > leabun1

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:21 PM

> > Re: pregnancy tx's

> >

> > Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still think

> > you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be

> > possible that there were other factors of your treatment

> > (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your patients

> > high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus the

> > candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or type

> > 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you never

> > know, you may be right.

> > Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all pregnant

> > women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood

> > sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to

> > candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth when

> > pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are

> > underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does

> > spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however indicate

> > that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may have a

> > higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite.

> >

> > What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not necessarily

> > directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it

> > personally.

> > I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and

> > even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very

> > bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways,

> > and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done

> > poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in the

> > vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im not

> > going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there have

> > been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over time)

> > Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was used

> > in the first place. One study that was never intended by the

> > researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as

> > evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the original

> > evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth) and

> > if you actually manage to track down the original information, it

> > generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed to it

> > in the first place.

> >

> > Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese medicine

> > could use a little more training in western scientific method,

> > because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their

> > treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results in a

> > more analytical way.

> > Of course this works the other way too, and there are many studies

> > that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being

> > researched because the methodology, from a

> > standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was good.

> > So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner need

> > this training and need to be doing these studies themselves.

> >

> > Chinese Medicine ,

> > stephenmacallan wrote:

> > >

> > > Hiya

> > > >

> > > > Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root of

> > all

> > > > evil " people?

> > >

> > > No, I`m not rabid.

> > >

> > > Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out.

> > > > Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal bowel

> > > > flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most definitely

> > part

> > > > of the normal flora of the vagina.

> > >

> > > I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted - its a

> > balance

> > > issue, not an infection issue.

> > >

> > > > Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin

> > > > resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar

> > levels.

> > > > That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant women

> > are

> > > > more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with

> > changes

> > > > to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A

> > slightly

> > > > higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy

> > progresses,

> > > > or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often combined

> > with

> > > > other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE

> > pregnancy

> > > > related diabetes is the " gestational " bit.

> > >

> > > Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy

> > changes simply

> > > make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy caused

> > caused a

> > > diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would get

> > it, but not

> > > all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get diabetees

> > when

> > > pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the pregnancy

> > which were

> > > sub-clinical before pregnancy.

> > >

> > > > Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora of

> > the

> > > > genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it is

> > > > often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most

> > certainly

> > > > can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different

> > strains,

> > > > and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly good

> > at

> > > > overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " or

> > > > hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner

> > leading

> > > > to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors such

> > as

> > > > overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, immunosuppression,

> > > > antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it worse.)

> > This

> > > > sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men it

> > is

> > > > not so overt and can indeed be subclinical.

> > > > If you have any concrete information to back up why you believe

> > that

> > > > overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, please

> > share

> > > > it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such a

> > > > complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-)

> > >

> > > Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for whom

> > clearing (re-

> > > balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the `diabetes`.

> > There`s been

> > > a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve diabetes,

> > other factors

> > > are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal

> > poisoning,

> > > parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe 20

> > cases of

> > > diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the others

> > improved

> > > somewhat anyway.

> > >

> > > stephen

> > >

> > > > Regards,

> > > > Lea.

> > > >

> > > > Chinese Medicine ,

> > > > stephenmacallan@ wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Hello,

> > > > > thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - thrush

> > is a

> > > > symptom of

> > > > > candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of

> > > > candida

> > > > > overgrowth in bowel also..

> > > > >

> > > > > regards

> > > > >

> > > > > stephen

> > > > >

> > > > > > Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth

> > testing

> > > > this lady's

> > > > > > blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated

> > > > diabetes. If her

> > > > > > sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the

> > thrush

> > > > until her

> > > > > > glucose level is reduced.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Regards

> > > > > > Susie Parkinson

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > " leabun1 " <leabun1@>

> > > > > > > Re: pregnancy tx's

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I think its the pregnancy hormones that

> > > > > > > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher

> > blood

> > > > sugar

> > > > > > > levels.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese

> > > > Medicine Times

> > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> > > > > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

> > > > > >

> >

> > > > and adjust

> > > > > > accordingly.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication

> > outside

> > > > the group

> > > > > > requires prior permission from the author.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message

> > if

> > > > absolutely

> > > > > > necessary.

> > > > > >

March 21, 2006

I think this is an educational concern over what our interaction with modern

healthcare will be. Will we be more focused upon modern knowledge,

classical knowledge or try to do both. Schools in the states have a long

ways to go to get the best of both worlds. I would like to hear how you

have achieved this blending.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

>RE: Re: pregnancy tx's

>Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:36:27 -0000

>

>I had research modules as part of my standard BSc in TCM. They were worth

>while and I learned alot. I'm now able to read and understand an RCT and

>the

>other different aspects of research. As this is one of the biggest problems

>TCM faces in the west; getting included into primary care via RCT evidence,

>research modules should be compulsory for all TCM courses. To be honest,

>I'm

>shocked that they are not.

>

>Warm regards,

>

>Attilio D'Alberto

>Doctor of (Beijing, China)

>B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M.

>Editor

> Times

>+44 (0) 208 367 8378

>enquiries

> <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

>suecochrane36

>21 March 2006 00:22

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: pregnancy tx's

>

>I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/ at

>University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism

>from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as

>compulsory units. There is much discussion of whether we are taking

>TCM off-track by such an emphasis on western scientific method. Some

>of our first graduating students argue that they can now read

>research reports critically and understand the flaws and biases

>within the available research. Surely a skill we should value. But

>I am about to send an email to a student who is considering

>withdrawing because of this emphasis within the course! Just as

>well TCM is a diverse church!

>Sue

>Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus

>DOM " <alonmarcus wrote:

> >

> > I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and

> > even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of

>very

> > bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky

>ways,

> > and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done

> > poorly or just erroneously.

> > >>>>>

> > How true

> >

> > Oakland, CA 94609

> >

> > -

> > leabun1

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:21 PM

> > Re: pregnancy tx's

> >

> > Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still

>think

> > you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be

> > possible that there were other factors of your treatment

> > (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your

>patients

> > high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus

>the

> > candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or

>type

> > 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you

>never

> > know, you may be right.

> > Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all

>pregnant

> > women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood

> > sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to

> > candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth

>when

> > pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are

> > underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does

> > spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however

>indicate

> > that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may

>have a

> > higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite.

> >

> > What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not

>necessarily

> > directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it

> > personally.

> > I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies

>and

> > even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of

>very

> > bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky

>ways,

> > and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done

> > poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in

>the

> > vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im

>not

> > going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there

>have

> > been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over

>time)

> > Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was

>used

> > in the first place. One study that was never intended by the

> > researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as

> > evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the

>original

> > evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth)

>and

> > if you actually manage to track down the original information,

>it

> > generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed to

>it

> > in the first place.

> >

> > Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese

>medicine

> > could use a little more training in western scientific method,

> > because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their

> > treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results

>in a

> > more analytical way.

> > Of course this works the other way too, and there are many

>studies

> > that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being

> > researched because the methodology, from a

> > standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was

>good.

> > So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner

>need

> > this training and need to be doing these studies themselves.

> >

> > Chinese Medicine ,

> > stephenmacallan@ wrote:

> > >

> > > Hiya

> > > >

> > > > Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root

>of

> > all

> > > > evil " people?

> > >

> > > No, I`m not rabid.

> > >

> > > Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out.

> > > > Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal

>bowel

> > > > flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most

>definitely

> > part

> > > > of the normal flora of the vagina.

> > >

> > > I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted -

>its a

> > balance

> > > issue, not an infection issue.

> > >

> > > > Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin

> > > > resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar

> > levels.

> > > > That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant

>women

> > are

> > > > more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with

> > changes

> > > > to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A

> > slightly

> > > > higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy

> > progresses,

> > > > or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often

>combined

> > with

> > > > other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE

> > pregnancy

> > > > related diabetes is the " gestational " bit.

> > >

> > > Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy

> > changes simply

> > > make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy

>caused

> > caused a

> > > diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would

>get

> > it, but not

> > > all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get

>diabetees

> > when

> > > pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the

>pregnancy

> > which were

> > > sub-clinical before pregnancy.

> > >

> > > > Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora

>of

> > the

> > > > genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it

>is

> > > > often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most

> > certainly

> > > > can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different

> > strains,

> > > > and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly

>good

> > at

> > > > overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud "

>or

> > > > hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner

> > leading

> > > > to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors

>such

> > as

> > > > overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract,

>immunosuppression,

> > > > antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it

>worse.)

> > This

> > > > sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men

>it

> > is

> > > > not so overt and can indeed be subclinical.

> > > > If you have any concrete information to back up why you

>believe

> > that

> > > > overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes,

>please

> > share

> > > > it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such

>a

> > > > complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-)

> > >

> > > Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for

>whom

> > clearing (re-

> > > balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the

>`diabetes`.

> > There`s been

> > > a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve

>diabetes,

> > other factors

> > > are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal

> > poisoning,

> > > parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe

>20

> > cases of

> > > diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the

>others

> > improved

> > > somewhat anyway.

> > >

> > > stephen

> > >

> > > > Regards,

> > > > Lea.

> > > >

> > > > Chinese Medicine ,

> > > > stephenmacallan@ wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Hello,

> > > > > thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes -

>thrush

> > is a

> > > > symptom of

> > > > > candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom

>of

> > > > candida

> > > > > overgrowth in bowel also..

> > > > >

> > > > > regards

> > > > >

> > > > > stephen

> > > > >

> > > > > > Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth

> > testing

> > > > this lady's

> > > > > > blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of

>untreated

> > > > diabetes. If her

> > > > > > sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the

> > thrush

> > > > until her

> > > > > > glucose level is reduced.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Regards

> > > > > > Susie Parkinson

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > " leabun1 " <leabun1@>

> > > > > > > Re: pregnancy tx's

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I think its the pregnancy hormones that

> > > > > > > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and

>higher

> > blood

> > > > sugar

> > > > > > > levels.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at

>Chinese

> > > > Medicine Times

> > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> > > > > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

> > > > > >

> >

> > > > and adjust

> > > > > > accordingly.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication

> > outside

> > > > the group

> > > > > > requires prior permission from the author.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this

>message

> > if

> > > > absolutely

> > > > > > necessary.

>

March 21, 2006

It sounds like you need to conduct a study with two filters that allow for

population entry. One is the modern chief complaint or illness and the

second is to have only those with a specific TCM pattern. Should not be

that hard as long as one chooses a broad problem like low back pain.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

>RE: Re: pregnancy tx's

>Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:31:53 -0000

>

>The inclusion of a pattern analysis into RCTs is something I've been

>thinking and talking about for sometime. It is the crux of the problem TCM

>faces in getting evaluated as evidence based research. No one has come up

>with the solution of including a TCM pattern analysis into the RCT model.

>The problem is that there are many different schools of thought within TCM,

>many different diagnosis to the same problem and these cannot be expressed

>within a strict RCT framework. I was thinking about using the statistically

>significant model on the pattern analysis as well after asking a committee

>of 10 leading pattern analysis experts. What do others think to this?

>

>Warm regards,

>

>Attilio D'Alberto

>Doctor of (Beijing, China)

>B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M.

>Editor

> Times

>+44 (0) 208 367 8378

>enquiries

> <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Alon

>Marcus DOM

>21 March 2006 00:38

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Re: pregnancy tx's

>

>If only specific studies for

>Chinese herbal medicines matched to biomedical diseases can be

>included as evidence (without pattern differentiation),

> >>>>

>Why would you not have patter dx?

>you can still have an objective evaluation even when doing pattern dx

>

>Oakland, CA 94609

>

> -

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Monday, March 20, 2006 4:34 PM

> Re: Re: pregnancy tx's

>

> The issue isn't so much whether practice should be evidence-based,

> but what are the criteria for evidence? If only specific studies for

> Chinese herbal medicines matched to biomedical diseases can be

> included as evidence (without pattern differentiation), it will

> pretty much eliminate any evidence for its efficacy. Two thousand

> years of case histories would have to be discarded, and the pattern-

> based studies done in mainland China in modern times as well. This

> type of 'evidence' will lead to the complete exclusion of Chinese

> medicine from modern health care.

>

> If the concept of 'evidence' can include the case histories, pattern-

> based studies of historical record as well as modern times, than

> these criteria can be used.

>

> " Evidence-based " medicine is an often culture-bound phenomenon as

> presently expressed, that eliminates most of the useful criteria

> already existing within the body of Chinese medicine.

>

> On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:22 PM, suecochrane36 wrote:

>

> > I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/ at

> > University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism

> > from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as

> > compulsory units. There is much discussion of whether we are taking

> > TCM off-track by such an emphasis on western scientific method. Some

> > of our first graduating students argue that they can now read

> > research reports critically and understand the flaws and biases

> > within the available research. Surely a skill we should value. But

> > I am about to send an email to a student who is considering

> > withdrawing because of this emphasis within the course! Just as

> > well TCM is a diverse church!

> > Sue

>

March 21, 2006

Zev,

There are trends that come and go and many times these are related to the

current politics. I would not expect much help for our profession to come

from the right (neo-cons) as they tend to favor policies that promote big

expensive procedures and the medical-insurance industry. This is a time of

status quo and reflection to decide upon course of action when we are able

to act, then do so without hesitation. Research can be enlightening and so

can getting to know the insurance/governmental side of things as these also

impact what and how we conduct our business. The next generations of

graduates seems to be willing to get more involved with the politics and

wanting to change things to make more ops for themselves and later

generations. That is what I am seeing from those who I interact with at my

college. By the way, one of your old colleges (Emperor's), has set up some

nice inter-disciplinary ops w/i and hospital (Freeman Memorial). I think

that says a lot. I think we need to continue to conduct research but also

push for new collaborative efforts in hospitals. Few chiro's ever get in

the doors to these ops.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " " <zrosenbe

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Re: pregnancy tx's

>Mon, 20 Mar 2006 16:35:18 -0800

>

>Mike,

> The situation seems to be getting worse. The more funding, the

>more bias.

>

>On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:30 PM, mike Bowser wrote:

>

> > So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical

> > studies

> > or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or change

> > results? We

> > seem to uphold these are gospel. This trend is far more common

> > then one

> > realizes as there is a lot of big pharma money depending upon the

> > results.

> > One does not have to travel far to see inappropriate conclusions or

> > misinterpretations of data, it seems to be that the wilder the

> > conclusion

> > the more it is believed. It all comes back to ethics and integrity.

> >

> > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> >

> >> " " <alonmarcus

> >> Chinese Medicine

> >> <Chinese Medicine >

> >> Re: Re: pregnancy tx's

> >> Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:47:03 -0800

> >>

> >> I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and

> >> even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very

> >> bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways,

> >> and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done

> >> poorly or just erroneously.

> >>>>>>>

> >> How true

> >>

> >> Oakland, CA 94609

> >>

> >> -

> >> leabun1

> >> Chinese Medicine

> >> Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:21 PM

> >> Re: pregnancy tx's

> >>

> >> Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still think

> >> you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be

> >> possible that there were other factors of your treatment

> >> (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your patients

> >> high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus the

> >> candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or

> >> type

> >> 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you

> >> never

> >> know, you may be right.

> >> Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all pregnant

> >> women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood

> >> sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to

> >> candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth when

> >> pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are

> >> underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does

> >> spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however

> >> indicate

> >> that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may have a

> >> higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite.

> >>

> >> What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not

> >> necessarily

> >> directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it

> >> personally.

> >> I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and

> >> even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very

> >> bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky

> >> ways,

> >> and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done

> >> poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in the

> >> vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im

> >> not

> >> going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there have

> >> been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over time)

> >> Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was

> >> used

> >> in the first place. One study that was never intended by the

> >> researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as

> >> evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the

> >> original

> >> evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth) and

> >> if you actually manage to track down the original information, it

> >> generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed to it

> >> in the first place.

> >>

> >> Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese

> >> medicine

> >> could use a little more training in western scientific method,

> >> because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their

> >> treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results

> >> in a

> >> more analytical way.

> >> Of course this works the other way too, and there are many studies

> >> that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being

> >> researched because the methodology, from a

> >> standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was good.

> >> So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner

> >> need

> >> this training and need to be doing these studies themselves.

> >>

> >> Chinese Medicine ,

> >> stephenmacallan wrote:

> >>>

> >>> Hiya

> >>>>

> >>>> Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root of

> >> all

> >>>> evil " people?

> >>>

> >>> No, I`m not rabid.

> >>>

> >>> Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out.

> >>>> Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal bowel

> >>>> flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most definitely

> >> part

> >>>> of the normal flora of the vagina.

> >>>

> >>> I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted - its a

> >> balance

> >>> issue, not an infection issue.

> >>>

> >>>> Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin

> >>>> resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar

> >> levels.

> >>>> That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant women

> >> are

> >>>> more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with

> >> changes

> >>>> to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A

> >> slightly

> >>>> higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy

> >> progresses,

> >>>> or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often combined

> >> with

> >>>> other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE

> >> pregnancy

> >>>> related diabetes is the " gestational " bit.

> >>>

> >>> Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy

> >> changes simply

> >>> make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy caused

> >> caused a

> >>> diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would get

> >> it, but not

> >>> all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get diabetees

> >> when

> >>> pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the pregnancy

> >> which were

> >>> sub-clinical before pregnancy.

> >>>

> >>>> Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora of

> >> the

> >>>> genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it is

> >>>> often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most

> >> certainly

> >>>> can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different

> >> strains,

> >>>> and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly good

> >> at

> >>>> overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " or

> >>>> hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner

> >> leading

> >>>> to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors such

> >> as

> >>>> overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, immunosuppression,

> >>>> antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it worse.)

> >> This

> >>>> sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men it

> >> is

> >>>> not so overt and can indeed be subclinical.

> >>>> If you have any concrete information to back up why you believe

> >> that

> >>>> overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, please

> >> share

> >>>> it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such a

> >>>> complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-)

> >>>

> >>> Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for whom

> >> clearing (re-

> >>> balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the `diabetes`.

> >> There`s been

> >>> a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve diabetes,

> >> other factors

> >>> are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal

> >> poisoning,

> >>> parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe 20

> >> cases of

> >>> diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the others

> >> improved

> >>> somewhat anyway.

> >>>

> >>> stephen

> >>>

> >>>> Regards,

> >>>> Lea.

> >>>>

> >>>> Chinese Medicine ,

> >>>> stephenmacallan@ wrote:

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Hello,

> >>>>> thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - thrush

> >> is a

> >>>> symptom of

> >>>>> candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of

> >>>> candida

> >>>>> overgrowth in bowel also..

> >>>>>

> >>>>> regards

> >>>>>

> >>>>> stephen

> >>>>>

> >>>>>> Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth

> >> testing

> >>>> this lady's

> >>>>>> blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated

> >>>> diabetes. If her

> >>>>>> sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the

> >> thrush

> >>>> until her

> >>>>>> glucose level is reduced.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Regards

> >>>>>> Susie Parkinson

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> " leabun1 " <leabun1@>

> >>>>>>> Re: pregnancy tx's

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> I think its the pregnancy hormones that

> >>>>>>> leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher

> >> blood

> >>>> sugar

> >>>>>>> levels.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese

> >>>> Medicine Times

> >>>>>> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> >>>>>> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

> >>>>>>

> >>

> >>>> and adjust

> >>>>>> accordingly.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication

> >> outside

> >>>> the group

> >>>>>> requires prior permission from the author.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Please consider the environment and only print this message

> >> if

> >>>> absolutely

> >>>>>> necessary.

> >>>>>>

March 21, 2006

If you're talking about Ted Kaptchuk's views on the placebo effect in TCM

not being included in the RCT model, I totally disagree. The placebo effect

is in everything and I believe is not as powerful in TCM as people make out.

I believe it's being used as a cop-out to TCM being studied within an RCT

model. Get the diagnosis and treatment right and we'll get some good

results. And we'll only get that if we can use a pattern analysis in the

inclusion/exclusion criteria.

Warm regards,

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M.

Editor

Times

+44 (0) 208 367 8378

enquiries

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike

Bowser

21 March 2006 17:54

Chinese Medicine

RE: Re: pregnancy tx's