Guest guest Report post Posted March 15, 2006 anyone know of safe treatments for yeast infection during pregnancy (7wks)? thanks! fiamma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 15, 2006 you could try Tea Tree suppositories or a clove of garlic inserted vaginally. - fiammasita<fiammasita To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\ @> Wednesday, March 15, 2006 6:36 AM pregnancy tx's anyone know of safe treatments for yeast infection during pregnancy (7wks)? thanks! fiamma Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145<http://toolbar.thebizpl\ ace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145> <http://groups.ya\ hoo.com> and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 16, 2006 Hi Linda I know things like this (below) are often published in mainland Chinese TCM books, but have you ever actually recommended to a patient (s) the vaginal insertion of a garlic clove? What were the results? I applied a small compress of (crushed) garlic to the soles of my (3 year old) daughter's feet for 3 hours and it produced a very deep burn. I would think twice before inserting garlic into my private parts! All the best, David Chinese Medicine , " Linda Gruber " <lindagruber5 wrote: > > you could try Tea Tree suppositories or a clove of garlic inserted vaginally. > - > fiammasita<fiammasita > To: Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chines e_Medicine > > Wednesday, March 15, 2006 6:36 AM > pregnancy tx's > > > anyone know of safe treatments for yeast infection during pregnancy (7wks)? > thanks! > > fiamma > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.co m/> > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145<http://toolba r.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145> > > <http:/ /> and adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 16, 2006 Hi, crushed garlic applied to feet should be mixed with olive oil to prevent the burn. Vaginal insertion is very good for thrush etc - there`s enough mucus there to prevent the burn, if worried coat garlic in olive oil, first. I`ve recommended it to several of my lady patients - it works very well. A good probiotic capsule also works well. stephen > Hi Linda > > I know things like this (below) are often published in mainland > Chinese TCM books, but have you ever actually recommended to a patient > (s) the vaginal insertion of a garlic clove? What were the results? > > I applied a small compress of (crushed) garlic to the soles of my (3 > year old) daughter's feet for 3 hours and it produced a very deep > burn. > > I would think twice before inserting garlic into my private parts! > > All the best, David > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Linda Gruber " > <lindagruber5 wrote: > > > > you could try Tea Tree suppositories or a clove of garlic inserted > vaginally. > > - > > fiammasita<fiammasita > > To: > Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chines > e_Medicine > > > Wednesday, March 15, 2006 6:36 AM > > pregnancy tx's > > > > > > anyone know of safe treatments for yeast infection during > pregnancy (7wks)? > > thanks! > > > > fiamma > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > Medicine Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.co > m/> > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145<http://toolba > r.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145> > > > > > <http:/ > /> and adjust > accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > absolutely necessary. > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 16, 2006 I really wouldnt recommend anyone use tea tree oil vaginally during pregnancy, esp. during the first trimester, (not a patient anyway) and actually managing to peel a garlic clove so that there are no nicks is pretty hard and I, too, have seen burns from garlic. Stay clear of this one. Eat the garlic or eat a garlic capsule, and use a white vinegar and hot water douche or sitz bath, followed by some yoghurt or probiotic powder inserted into the vagina. Alternatively, you can try a couple of drops of, say lavender oil in the sitz bath which is safer to use in pregnancy, although not as specifically antifungal as tea tree. Hopefully, if your patient reduces sugar intake and takes some probiotics, this candida infection will be self limiting and get better as the pregnancy progresses. I think its the pregnancy hormones that leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher blood sugar levels. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 16, 2006 Hi there, I have had alot of patients come to me who have told me that a previous practitioner advocated to them to use a clove of garlic and had, ahem....VERY uncomfortable results, even when they were being very careful and wrapped the clove in gauze or coated in olive oil. Im sure that, as you said, there are some people who get a good result, otherwise it wouldnt keep being recommended, but not everyone has enough mucous, or the right kind of mucous for that matter, to prevent a burn. Depending on what their hormones or hormonal cycle is doing at that particular moment. And the patients who have a bad result, whether due to user error or otherwise, generally dont come back and tell you about it. (They go to another practitioner and tell them ALL about it.) I feel that if a clove of garlic rubbed on the soles of the feet for a few minutes can lead to garlic breath, then that would indicate to me a certain systemic effect. Why not just stay on the safe side and eat it? I also like to be very careful about my treatments for people during pregnancy, even if purely for peace of mind and jurisprudence purposes, even if personally I had Hegu needled on me when I was in the first trimester, I wouldnt do that on a patient. Although I refuse to descend into histrionics to the extent that some books and practitioners advocate. ( " Dont sleep next to a digital clock with an LED readout, thats RADIATION.... " etc etc) I believe that in a healthy woman with a healthy pregnancy, its very difficult to actually do anything to disturb the pregnancy, which leads us to the fact that woman are bearing children later and often have need of medical intervention before conception, during pregnancy and birth. (Although there is LOTS that could be said about why people are having more interventions during birth, thats probably another story for another forum ) The average age of women having their first child in Australia is 32 years old these days, and a nurse midwife friend of mine tells me that he sees a much higher incidence of gestational diabetes, preeclampsia and other problems in older women. He also tells me that physically, (if not psychologically) the best age to give birth at is about 16-18 years old, well before the pelvis has fused. (24 was young enough for me with baby number 1!) Anyway, its hard for me to type one handed holding baby number 2, so Ill finish this now. Are there any practitioners with midwifery or obstetrics training on this forum who would like to give their ideas? Regards, Lea Starck. Chinese Medicine , stephenmacallan wrote: > > Hi, > crushed garlic applied to feet should be mixed with olive oil to prevent the > burn. Vaginal insertion is very good for thrush etc - there`s enough mucus > there to prevent the burn, if worried coat garlic in olive oil, first. I`ve > recommended it to several of my lady patients - it works very well. A good > probiotic capsule also works well. > > stephen > > > Hi Linda > > > > I know things like this (below) are often published in mainland > > Chinese TCM books, but have you ever actually recommended to a patient > > (s) the vaginal insertion of a garlic clove? What were the results? > > > > I applied a small compress of (crushed) garlic to the soles of my (3 > > year old) daughter's feet for 3 hours and it produced a very deep > > burn. > > > > I would think twice before inserting garlic into my private parts! > > > > All the best, David > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Linda Gruber " > > <lindagruber5@> wrote: > > > > > > you could try Tea Tree suppositories or a clove of garlic inserted > > vaginally. > > > - > > > fiammasita<fiammasita@> > > > To: > > Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chine s > > e_Medicine > > > > Wednesday, March 15, 2006 6:36 AM > > > pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > > > anyone know of safe treatments for yeast infection during > > pregnancy (7wks)? > > > thanks! > > > > > > fiamma > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > > Medicine Times > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.c o > > m/> > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145<http://toolb a > > r.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145> > > > > > > > > <http: / > > /> and adjust > > accordingly. > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > > absolutely necessary. > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 17, 2006 I think if people really want to use garlic and find success with than, then simply an infused garlic oil would be appropriate. Cory Trusty http://chinesetherapeutics.org/catalog/index.php On Thu, 16 Mar 2006, leabun1 wrote: > I really wouldnt recommend anyone use tea tree oil vaginally during > pregnancy, esp. during the first trimester, (not a patient anyway) and > actually managing to peel a garlic clove so that there are no nicks > is pretty hard and I, too, have seen burns from garlic. Stay clear of > this one. Eat the garlic or eat a garlic capsule, and use a white > vinegar and hot water douche or sitz bath, followed by some yoghurt or > probiotic powder inserted into the vagina. Alternatively, you can try a > couple of drops of, say lavender oil in the sitz bath which is safer to > use in pregnancy, although not as specifically antifungal as tea tree. > Hopefully, if your patient reduces sugar intake and takes some > probiotics, this candida infection will be self limiting and get better > as the pregnancy progresses. I think its the pregnancy hormones that > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher blood sugar > levels. > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at > Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 17, 2006 Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth testing this lady's blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated diabetes. If her sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the thrush until her glucose level is reduced. Regards Susie Parkinson > > " leabun1 " <leabun1 > Re: pregnancy tx's > > I think its the pregnancy hormones that > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher blood sugar > levels. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 18, 2006 glad to know that, thanks! - David Gordon<junhengclinic To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\ @> Wednesday, March 15, 2006 8:49 PM Re: pregnancy tx's Hi Linda I know things like this (below) are often published in mainland Chinese TCM books, but have you ever actually recommended to a patient (s) the vaginal insertion of a garlic clove? What were the results? I applied a small compress of (crushed) garlic to the soles of my (3 year old) daughter's feet for 3 hours and it produced a very deep burn. I would think twice before inserting garlic into my private parts! All the best, David --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\ @>, " Linda Gruber " <lindagruber5 wrote: > > you could try Tea Tree suppositories or a clove of garlic inserted vaginally. > - > fiammasita<fiammasita<fiammasita> > To: Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chines<Tr\ aditional_Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_Chines> e_Medicine <e_Medicine >> > Wednesday, March 15, 2006 6:36 AM > pregnancy tx's > > > anyone know of safe treatments for yeast infection during pregnancy (7wks)? > thanks! > > fiamma > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.co<http://ww\ w.chinesemedicinetimes.com<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.co> m/> > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145<http://toolba<http://to\ olbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145<http://toolba> r.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145> > > <http:/<http://gr\ oups.<http:/> /> and adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 18, 2006 Hello, thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - thrush is a symptom of candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of candida overgrowth in bowel also.. regards stephen > Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth testing this lady's > blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated diabetes. If her > sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the thrush until her > glucose level is reduced. > > Regards > Susie Parkinson > > > > > > " leabun1 " <leabun1 > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > I think its the pregnancy hormones that > > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher blood sugar > > levels. > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 19, 2006 Hello, Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root of all evil " people? Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out. Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal bowel flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most definitely part of the normal flora of the vagina. Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar levels. That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant women are more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with changes to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A slightly higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy progresses, or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often combined with other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE pregnancy related diabetes is the " gestational " bit. Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora of the genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it is often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most certainly can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different strains, and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly good at overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " or hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner leading to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors such as overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, immunosuppression, antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it worse.) This sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men it is not so overt and can indeed be subclinical. If you have any concrete information to back up why you believe that overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, please share it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such a complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-) Regards, Lea. Chinese Medicine , stephenmacallan wrote: > > Hello, > thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - thrush is a symptom of > candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of candida > overgrowth in bowel also.. > > regards > > stephen > > > > Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth testing this lady's > > blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated diabetes. If her > > sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the thrush until her > > glucose level is reduced. > > > > Regards > > Susie Parkinson > > > > > > > > > > " leabun1 " <leabun1 > > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > I think its the pregnancy hormones that > > > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher blood sugar > > > levels. > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese Medicine Times > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > and adjust > > accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > > necessary. > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 19, 2006 Hiya > > Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root of all > evil " people? No, I`m not rabid. Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out. > Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal bowel > flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most definitely part > of the normal flora of the vagina. I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted - its a balance issue, not an infection issue. > Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin > resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar levels. > That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant women are > more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with changes > to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A slightly > higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy progresses, > or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often combined with > other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE pregnancy > related diabetes is the " gestational " bit. Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy changes simply make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy caused caused a diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would get it, but not all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get diabetees when pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the pregnancy which were sub-clinical before pregnancy. > Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora of the > genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it is > often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most certainly > can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different strains, > and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly good at > overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " or > hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner leading > to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors such as > overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, immunosuppression, > antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it worse.) This > sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men it is > not so overt and can indeed be subclinical. > If you have any concrete information to back up why you believe that > overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, please share > it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such a > complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-) Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for whom clearing (re- balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the `diabetes`. There`s been a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve diabetes, other factors are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal poisoning, parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe 20 cases of diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the others improved somewhat anyway. stephen > Regards, > Lea. > > Chinese Medicine , > stephenmacallan wrote: > > > > Hello, > > thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - thrush is a > symptom of > > candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of > candida > > overgrowth in bowel also.. > > > > regards > > > > stephen > > > > > > > Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth testing > this lady's > > > blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated > diabetes. If her > > > sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the thrush > until her > > > glucose level is reduced. > > > > > > Regards > > > Susie Parkinson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " leabun1 " <leabun1 > > > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > > I think its the pregnancy hormones that > > > > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher blood > sugar > > > > levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > Medicine Times > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > > > > > and adjust > > > accordingly. > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > the group > > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > absolutely > > > necessary. > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 19, 2006 Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still think you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be possible that there were other factors of your treatment (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your patients high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus the candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or type 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you never know, you may be right. Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all pregnant women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth when pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however indicate that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may have a higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite. What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not necessarily directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it personally. I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in the vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im not going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there have been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over time) Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was used in the first place. One study that was never intended by the researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the original evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth) and if you actually manage to track down the original information, it generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed to it in the first place. Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese medicine could use a little more training in western scientific method, because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results in a more analytical way. Of course this works the other way too, and there are many studies that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being researched because the methodology, from a standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was good. So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner need this training and need to be doing these studies themselves. Chinese Medicine , stephenmacallan wrote: > > Hiya > > > > Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root of all > > evil " people? > > No, I`m not rabid. > > Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out. > > Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal bowel > > flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most definitely part > > of the normal flora of the vagina. > > I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted - its a balance > issue, not an infection issue. > > > > Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin > > resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar levels. > > That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant women are > > more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with changes > > to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A slightly > > higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy progresses, > > or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often combined with > > other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE pregnancy > > related diabetes is the " gestational " bit. > > Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy changes simply > make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy caused caused a > diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would get it, but not > all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get diabetees when > pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the pregnancy which were > sub-clinical before pregnancy. > > > Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora of the > > genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it is > > often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most certainly > > can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different strains, > > and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly good at > > overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " or > > hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner leading > > to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors such as > > overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, immunosuppression, > > antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it worse.) This > > sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men it is > > not so overt and can indeed be subclinical. > > If you have any concrete information to back up why you believe that > > overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, please share > > it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such a > > complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-) > > Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for whom clearing (re- > balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the `diabetes`. There`s been > a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve diabetes, other factors > are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal poisoning, > parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe 20 cases of > diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the others improved > somewhat anyway. > > stephen > > > > > Regards, > > Lea. > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > stephenmacallan@ wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - thrush is a > > symptom of > > > candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of > > candida > > > overgrowth in bowel also.. > > > > > > regards > > > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > > Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth testing > > this lady's > > > > blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated > > diabetes. If her > > > > sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the thrush > > until her > > > > glucose level is reduced. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Susie Parkinson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " leabun1 " <leabun1@> > > > > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > > > > I think its the pregnancy hormones that > > > > > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher blood > > sugar > > > > > levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > > Medicine Times > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and adjust > > > > accordingly. > > > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > > the group > > > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > > absolutely > > > > necessary. > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 20, 2006 I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done poorly or just erroneously. >>>>> How true Oakland, CA 94609 - leabun1 Chinese Medicine Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:21 PM Re: pregnancy tx's Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still think you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be possible that there were other factors of your treatment (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your patients high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus the candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or type 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you never know, you may be right. Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all pregnant women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth when pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however indicate that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may have a higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite. What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not necessarily directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it personally. I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in the vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im not going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there have been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over time) Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was used in the first place. One study that was never intended by the researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the original evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth) and if you actually manage to track down the original information, it generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed to it in the first place. Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese medicine could use a little more training in western scientific method, because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results in a more analytical way. Of course this works the other way too, and there are many studies that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being researched because the methodology, from a standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was good. So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner need this training and need to be doing these studies themselves. Chinese Medicine , stephenmacallan wrote: > > Hiya > > > > Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root of all > > evil " people? > > No, I`m not rabid. > > Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out. > > Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal bowel > > flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most definitely part > > of the normal flora of the vagina. > > I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted - its a balance > issue, not an infection issue. > > > > Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin > > resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar levels. > > That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant women are > > more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with changes > > to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A slightly > > higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy progresses, > > or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often combined with > > other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE pregnancy > > related diabetes is the " gestational " bit. > > Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy changes simply > make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy caused caused a > diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would get it, but not > all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get diabetees when > pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the pregnancy which were > sub-clinical before pregnancy. > > > Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora of the > > genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it is > > often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most certainly > > can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different strains, > > and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly good at > > overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " or > > hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner leading > > to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors such as > > overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, immunosuppression, > > antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it worse.) This > > sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men it is > > not so overt and can indeed be subclinical. > > If you have any concrete information to back up why you believe that > > overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, please share > > it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such a > > complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-) > > Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for whom clearing (re- > balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the `diabetes`. There`s been > a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve diabetes, other factors > are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal poisoning, > parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe 20 cases of > diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the others improved > somewhat anyway. > > stephen > > > > > Regards, > > Lea. > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > stephenmacallan@ wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - thrush is a > > symptom of > > > candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of > > candida > > > overgrowth in bowel also.. > > > > > > regards > > > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > > Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth testing > > this lady's > > > > blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated > > diabetes. If her > > > > sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the thrush > > until her > > > > glucose level is reduced. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Susie Parkinson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " leabun1 " <leabun1@> > > > > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > > > > I think its the pregnancy hormones that > > > > > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher blood > > sugar > > > > > levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > > Medicine Times > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and adjust > > > > accordingly. > > > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > > the group > > > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > > absolutely > > > > necessary. > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/ at University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as compulsory units. There is much discussion of whether we are taking TCM off-track by such an emphasis on western scientific method. Some of our first graduating students argue that they can now read research reports critically and understand the flaws and biases within the available research. Surely a skill we should value. But I am about to send an email to a student who is considering withdrawing because of this emphasis within the course! Just as well TCM is a diverse church! Sue Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus DOM " <alonmarcus wrote: > > I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very > bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, > and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > poorly or just erroneously. > >>>>> > How true > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > leabun1 > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:21 PM > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still think > you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be > possible that there were other factors of your treatment > (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your patients > high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus the > candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or type > 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you never > know, you may be right. > Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all pregnant > women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood > sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to > candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth when > pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are > underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does > spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however indicate > that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may have a > higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite. > > What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not necessarily > directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it > personally. > I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very > bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, > and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in the > vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im not > going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there have > been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over time) > Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was used > in the first place. One study that was never intended by the > researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as > evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the original > evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth) and > if you actually manage to track down the original information, it > generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed to it > in the first place. > > Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese medicine > could use a little more training in western scientific method, > because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their > treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results in a > more analytical way. > Of course this works the other way too, and there are many studies > that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being > researched because the methodology, from a > standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was good. > So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner need > this training and need to be doing these studies themselves. > > Chinese Medicine , > stephenmacallan@ wrote: > > > > Hiya > > > > > > Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root of > all > > > evil " people? > > > > No, I`m not rabid. > > > > Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out. > > > Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal bowel > > > flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most definitely > part > > > of the normal flora of the vagina. > > > > I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted - its a > balance > > issue, not an infection issue. > > > > > > > Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin > > > resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar > levels. > > > That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant women > are > > > more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with > changes > > > to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A > slightly > > > higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy > progresses, > > > or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often combined > with > > > other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE > pregnancy > > > related diabetes is the " gestational " bit. > > > > Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy > changes simply > > make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy caused > caused a > > diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would get > it, but not > > all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get diabetees > when > > pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the pregnancy > which were > > sub-clinical before pregnancy. > > > > > Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora of > the > > > genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it is > > > often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most > certainly > > > can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different > strains, > > > and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly good > at > > > overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " or > > > hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner > leading > > > to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors such > as > > > overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, immunosuppression, > > > antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it worse.) > This > > > sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men it > is > > > not so overt and can indeed be subclinical. > > > If you have any concrete information to back up why you believe > that > > > overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, please > share > > > it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such a > > > complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-) > > > > Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for whom > clearing (re- > > balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the `diabetes`. > There`s been > > a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve diabetes, > other factors > > are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal > poisoning, > > parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe 20 > cases of > > diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the others > improved > > somewhat anyway. > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Lea. > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > > stephenmacallan@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - thrush > is a > > > symptom of > > > > candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of > > > candida > > > > overgrowth in bowel also.. > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth > testing > > > this lady's > > > > > blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated > > > diabetes. If her > > > > > sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the > thrush > > > until her > > > > > glucose level is reduced. > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > Susie Parkinson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " leabun1 " <leabun1@> > > > > > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > > > > > > I think its the pregnancy hormones that > > > > > > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher > blood > > > sugar > > > > > > levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > > > Medicine Times > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > > > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and adjust > > > > > accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication > outside > > > the group > > > > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message > if > > > absolutely > > > > > necessary. > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical studies or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or change results? We seem to uphold these are gospel. This trend is far more common then one realizes as there is a lot of big pharma money depending upon the results. One does not have to travel far to see inappropriate conclusions or misinterpretations of data, it seems to be that the wilder the conclusion the more it is believed. It all comes back to ethics and integrity. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <alonmarcus >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's >Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:47:03 -0800 > >I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and >even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very >bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, >and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done >poorly or just erroneously. > >>>>> >How true > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > leabun1 > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:21 PM > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still think > you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be > possible that there were other factors of your treatment > (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your patients > high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus the > candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or type > 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you never > know, you may be right. > Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all pregnant > women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood > sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to > candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth when > pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are > underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does > spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however indicate > that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may have a > higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite. > > What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not necessarily > directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it > personally. > I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very > bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, > and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in the > vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im not > going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there have > been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over time) > Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was used > in the first place. One study that was never intended by the > researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as > evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the original > evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth) and > if you actually manage to track down the original information, it > generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed to it > in the first place. > > Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese medicine > could use a little more training in western scientific method, > because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their > treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results in a > more analytical way. > Of course this works the other way too, and there are many studies > that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being > researched because the methodology, from a > standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was good. > So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner need > this training and need to be doing these studies themselves. > > Chinese Medicine , > stephenmacallan wrote: > > > > Hiya > > > > > > Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root of > all > > > evil " people? > > > > No, I`m not rabid. > > > > Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out. > > > Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal bowel > > > flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most definitely > part > > > of the normal flora of the vagina. > > > > I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted - its a > balance > > issue, not an infection issue. > > > > > > > Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin > > > resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar > levels. > > > That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant women > are > > > more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with > changes > > > to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A > slightly > > > higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy > progresses, > > > or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often combined > with > > > other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE > pregnancy > > > related diabetes is the " gestational " bit. > > > > Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy > changes simply > > make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy caused > caused a > > diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would get > it, but not > > all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get diabetees > when > > pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the pregnancy > which were > > sub-clinical before pregnancy. > > > > > Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora of > the > > > genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it is > > > often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most > certainly > > > can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different > strains, > > > and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly good > at > > > overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " or > > > hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner > leading > > > to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors such > as > > > overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, immunosuppression, > > > antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it worse.) > This > > > sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men it > is > > > not so overt and can indeed be subclinical. > > > If you have any concrete information to back up why you believe > that > > > overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, please > share > > > it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such a > > > complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-) > > > > Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for whom > clearing (re- > > balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the `diabetes`. > There`s been > > a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve diabetes, > other factors > > are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal > poisoning, > > parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe 20 > cases of > > diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the others > improved > > somewhat anyway. > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Lea. > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > > stephenmacallan@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - thrush > is a > > > symptom of > > > > candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of > > > candida > > > > overgrowth in bowel also.. > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth > testing > > > this lady's > > > > > blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated > > > diabetes. If her > > > > > sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the > thrush > > > until her > > > > > glucose level is reduced. > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > Susie Parkinson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " leabun1 " <leabun1@> > > > > > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > > > > > > I think its the pregnancy hormones that > > > > > > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher > blood > > > sugar > > > > > > levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > > > Medicine Times > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > > > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and adjust > > > > > accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication > outside > > > the group > > > > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message > if > > > absolutely > > > > > necessary. > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 The issue isn't so much whether practice should be evidence-based, but what are the criteria for evidence? If only specific studies for Chinese herbal medicines matched to biomedical diseases can be included as evidence (without pattern differentiation), it will pretty much eliminate any evidence for its efficacy. Two thousand years of case histories would have to be discarded, and the pattern- based studies done in mainland China in modern times as well. This type of 'evidence' will lead to the complete exclusion of Chinese medicine from modern health care. If the concept of 'evidence' can include the case histories, pattern- based studies of historical record as well as modern times, than these criteria can be used. " Evidence-based " medicine is an often culture-bound phenomenon as presently expressed, that eliminates most of the useful criteria already existing within the body of Chinese medicine. On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:22 PM, suecochrane36 wrote: > I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/ at > University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism > from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as > compulsory units. There is much discussion of whether we are taking > TCM off-track by such an emphasis on western scientific method. Some > of our first graduating students argue that they can now read > research reports critically and understand the flaws and biases > within the available research. Surely a skill we should value. But > I am about to send an email to a student who is considering > withdrawing because of this emphasis within the course! Just as > well TCM is a diverse church! > Sue Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 Mike, The situation seems to be getting worse. The more funding, the more bias. On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:30 PM, mike Bowser wrote: > So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical > studies > or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or change > results? We > seem to uphold these are gospel. This trend is far more common > then one > realizes as there is a lot of big pharma money depending upon the > results. > One does not have to travel far to see inappropriate conclusions or > misinterpretations of data, it seems to be that the wilder the > conclusion > the more it is believed. It all comes back to ethics and integrity. > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > >> " " <alonmarcus >> Chinese Medicine >> <Chinese Medicine > >> Re: Re: pregnancy tx's >> Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:47:03 -0800 >> >> I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and >> even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very >> bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, >> and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done >> poorly or just erroneously. >>>>>>> >> How true >> >> >> >> Oakland, CA 94609 >> >> >> - >> leabun1 >> Chinese Medicine >> Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:21 PM >> Re: pregnancy tx's >> >> >> Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still think >> you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be >> possible that there were other factors of your treatment >> (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your patients >> high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus the >> candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or >> type >> 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you >> never >> know, you may be right. >> Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all pregnant >> women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood >> sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to >> candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth when >> pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are >> underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does >> spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however >> indicate >> that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may have a >> higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite. >> >> What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not >> necessarily >> directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it >> personally. >> I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and >> even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very >> bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky >> ways, >> and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done >> poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in the >> vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im >> not >> going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there have >> been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over time) >> Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was >> used >> in the first place. One study that was never intended by the >> researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as >> evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the >> original >> evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth) and >> if you actually manage to track down the original information, it >> generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed to it >> in the first place. >> >> Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese >> medicine >> could use a little more training in western scientific method, >> because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their >> treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results >> in a >> more analytical way. >> Of course this works the other way too, and there are many studies >> that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being >> researched because the methodology, from a >> standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was good. >> So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner >> need >> this training and need to be doing these studies themselves. >> >> Chinese Medicine , >> stephenmacallan wrote: >>> >>> Hiya >>>> >>>> Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root of >> all >>>> evil " people? >>> >>> No, I`m not rabid. >>> >>> Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out. >>>> Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal bowel >>>> flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most definitely >> part >>>> of the normal flora of the vagina. >>> >>> I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted - its a >> balance >>> issue, not an infection issue. >>> >>> >>>> Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin >>>> resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar >> levels. >>>> That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant women >> are >>>> more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with >> changes >>>> to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A >> slightly >>>> higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy >> progresses, >>>> or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often combined >> with >>>> other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE >> pregnancy >>>> related diabetes is the " gestational " bit. >>> >>> Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy >> changes simply >>> make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy caused >> caused a >>> diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would get >> it, but not >>> all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get diabetees >> when >>> pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the pregnancy >> which were >>> sub-clinical before pregnancy. >>> >>>> Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora of >> the >>>> genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it is >>>> often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most >> certainly >>>> can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different >> strains, >>>> and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly good >> at >>>> overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " or >>>> hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner >> leading >>>> to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors such >> as >>>> overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, immunosuppression, >>>> antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it worse.) >> This >>>> sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men it >> is >>>> not so overt and can indeed be subclinical. >>>> If you have any concrete information to back up why you believe >> that >>>> overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, please >> share >>>> it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such a >>>> complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-) >>> >>> Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for whom >> clearing (re- >>> balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the `diabetes`. >> There`s been >>> a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve diabetes, >> other factors >>> are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal >> poisoning, >>> parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe 20 >> cases of >>> diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the others >> improved >>> somewhat anyway. >>> >>> stephen >>> >>> >>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Lea. >>>> >>>> Chinese Medicine , >>>> stephenmacallan@ wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hello, >>>>> thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - thrush >> is a >>>> symptom of >>>>> candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of >>>> candida >>>>> overgrowth in bowel also.. >>>>> >>>>> regards >>>>> >>>>> stephen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth >> testing >>>> this lady's >>>>>> blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated >>>> diabetes. If her >>>>>> sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the >> thrush >>>> until her >>>>>> glucose level is reduced. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> Susie Parkinson >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> " leabun1 " <leabun1@> >>>>>>> Re: pregnancy tx's >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think its the pregnancy hormones that >>>>>>> leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher >> blood >>>> sugar >>>>>>> levels. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese >>>> Medicine Times >>>>>> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, >>>>>> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >> >>>> and adjust >>>>>> accordingly. >>>>>> >>>>>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication >> outside >>>> the group >>>>>> requires prior permission from the author. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please consider the environment and only print this message >> if >>>> absolutely >>>>>> necessary. >>>>>> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 If only specific studies for Chinese herbal medicines matched to biomedical diseases can be included as evidence (without pattern differentiation), >>>> Why would you not have patter dx? you can still have an objective evaluation even when doing pattern dx Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Monday, March 20, 2006 4:34 PM Re: Re: pregnancy tx's The issue isn't so much whether practice should be evidence-based, but what are the criteria for evidence? If only specific studies for Chinese herbal medicines matched to biomedical diseases can be included as evidence (without pattern differentiation), it will pretty much eliminate any evidence for its efficacy. Two thousand years of case histories would have to be discarded, and the pattern- based studies done in mainland China in modern times as well. This type of 'evidence' will lead to the complete exclusion of Chinese medicine from modern health care. If the concept of 'evidence' can include the case histories, pattern- based studies of historical record as well as modern times, than these criteria can be used. " Evidence-based " medicine is an often culture-bound phenomenon as presently expressed, that eliminates most of the useful criteria already existing within the body of Chinese medicine. On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:22 PM, suecochrane36 wrote: > I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/ at > University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism > from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as > compulsory units. There is much discussion of whether we are taking > TCM off-track by such an emphasis on western scientific method. Some > of our first graduating students argue that they can now read > research reports critically and understand the flaws and biases > within the available research. Surely a skill we should value. But > I am about to send an email to a student who is considering > withdrawing because of this emphasis within the course! Just as > well TCM is a diverse church! > Sue Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical studies or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or change results? We seem to uphold these are gospel. This trend is far more common then one realizes as there is a lot of big pharma money depending upon the results. One does not have to travel far to see inappropriate conclusions or misinterpretations of data, it seems to be that the wilder the conclusion the more it is believed. It all comes back to ethics and integrity. >>>>>> Same thing we would say for poor alternative med studies Oakland, CA 94609 - mike Bowser Chinese Medicine Monday, March 20, 2006 4:30 PM Re: Re: pregnancy tx's So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical studies or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or change results? We seem to uphold these are gospel. This trend is far more common then one realizes as there is a lot of big pharma money depending upon the results. One does not have to travel far to see inappropriate conclusions or misinterpretations of data, it seems to be that the wilder the conclusion the more it is believed. It all comes back to ethics and integrity. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <alonmarcus >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's >Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:47:03 -0800 > >I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and >even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very >bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, >and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done >poorly or just erroneously. > >>>>> >How true > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > leabun1 > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:21 PM > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still think > you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be > possible that there were other factors of your treatment > (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your patients > high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus the > candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or type > 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you never > know, you may be right. > Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all pregnant > women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood > sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to > candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth when > pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are > underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does > spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however indicate > that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may have a > higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite. > > What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not necessarily > directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it > personally. > I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very > bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, > and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in the > vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im not > going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there have > been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over time) > Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was used > in the first place. One study that was never intended by the > researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as > evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the original > evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth) and > if you actually manage to track down the original information, it > generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed to it > in the first place. > > Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese medicine > could use a little more training in western scientific method, > because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their > treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results in a > more analytical way. > Of course this works the other way too, and there are many studies > that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being > researched because the methodology, from a > standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was good. > So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner need > this training and need to be doing these studies themselves. > > Chinese Medicine , > stephenmacallan wrote: > > > > Hiya > > > > > > Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root of > all > > > evil " people? > > > > No, I`m not rabid. > > > > Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out. > > > Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal bowel > > > flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most definitely > part > > > of the normal flora of the vagina. > > > > I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted - its a > balance > > issue, not an infection issue. > > > > > > > Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin > > > resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar > levels. > > > That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant women > are > > > more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with > changes > > > to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A > slightly > > > higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy > progresses, > > > or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often combined > with > > > other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE > pregnancy > > > related diabetes is the " gestational " bit. > > > > Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy > changes simply > > make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy caused > caused a > > diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would get > it, but not > > all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get diabetees > when > > pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the pregnancy > which were > > sub-clinical before pregnancy. > > > > > Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora of > the > > > genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it is > > > often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most > certainly > > > can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different > strains, > > > and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly good > at > > > overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " or > > > hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner > leading > > > to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors such > as > > > overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, immunosuppression, > > > antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it worse.) > This > > > sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men it > is > > > not so overt and can indeed be subclinical. > > > If you have any concrete information to back up why you believe > that > > > overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, please > share > > > it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such a > > > complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-) > > > > Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for whom > clearing (re- > > balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the `diabetes`. > There`s been > > a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve diabetes, > other factors > > are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal > poisoning, > > parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe 20 > cases of > > diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the others > improved > > somewhat anyway. > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Lea. > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > > stephenmacallan@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - thrush > is a > > > symptom of > > > > candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of > > > candida > > > > overgrowth in bowel also.. > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth > testing > > > this lady's > > > > > blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated > > > diabetes. If her > > > > > sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the > thrush > > > until her > > > > > glucose level is reduced. > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > Susie Parkinson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " leabun1 " <leabun1@> > > > > > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > > > > > > I think its the pregnancy hormones that > > > > > > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher > blood > > > sugar > > > > > > levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > > > Medicine Times > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > > > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and adjust > > > > > accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication > outside > > > the group > > > > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message > if > > > absolutely > > > > > necessary. > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 True Zev - I share your concern of how EBM/EBP has been used to exclude rather than enlighten us and the definition of what is evidence precludes us almost by definition. But the development of a critical mind toward WSM (which is hopefully what our course encourages)must surely be desirable Sue Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe wrote: > > The issue isn't so much whether practice should be evidence- based, > but what are the criteria for evidence? If only specific studies for > Chinese herbal medicines matched to biomedical diseases can be > included as evidence (without pattern differentiation), it will > pretty much eliminate any evidence for its efficacy. Two thousand > years of case histories would have to be discarded, and the pattern- > based studies done in mainland China in modern times as well. This > type of 'evidence' will lead to the complete exclusion of Chinese > medicine from modern health care. > > If the concept of 'evidence' can include the case histories, pattern- > based studies of historical record as well as modern times, than > these criteria can be used. > > " Evidence-based " medicine is an often culture-bound phenomenon as > presently expressed, that eliminates most of the useful criteria > already existing within the body of Chinese medicine. > > > On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:22 PM, suecochrane36 wrote: > > > I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/ at > > University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism > > from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as > > compulsory units. There is much discussion of whether we are taking > > TCM off-track by such an emphasis on western scientific method. Some > > of our first graduating students argue that they can now read > > research reports critically and understand the flaws and biases > > within the available research. Surely a skill we should value. But > > I am about to send an email to a student who is considering > > withdrawing because of this emphasis within the course! Just as > > well TCM is a diverse church! > > Sue > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 Of course. . . but what do those institutions care about pattern dx? For example, the integrative medicine program at UC Irvine. On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:38 PM, wrote: > Why would you not have patter dx? > you can still have an objective evaluation even when doing pattern dx > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 Zev that is a question of education. if they understood it better they would be. But why look at them? what about your institution for example? Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Monday, March 20, 2006 5:23 PM Re: Re: pregnancy tx's Of course. . . but what do those institutions care about pattern dx? For example, the integrative medicine program at UC Irvine. On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:38 PM, wrote: > Why would you not have patter dx? > you can still have an objective evaluation even when doing pattern dx > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 Ah, there you are talking about 'in-house' evidence-based approaches within our profession and schools. Different animal. But would they be accepted by the mainstream? On Mar 20, 2006, at 5:47 PM, wrote: > Zev > that is a question of education. if they understood it better they > would be. But why look at them? what about your institution for > example? > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 The inclusion of a pattern analysis into RCTs is something I've been thinking and talking about for sometime. It is the crux of the problem TCM faces in getting evaluated as evidence based research. No one has come up with the solution of including a TCM pattern analysis into the RCT model. The problem is that there are many different schools of thought within TCM, many different diagnosis to the same problem and these cannot be expressed within a strict RCT framework. I was thinking about using the statistically significant model on the pattern analysis as well after asking a committee of 10 leading pattern analysis experts. What do others think to this? Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. Editor Times +44 (0) 208 367 8378 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Alon Marcus DOM 21 March 2006 00:38 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: pregnancy tx's If only specific studies for Chinese herbal medicines matched to biomedical diseases can be included as evidence (without pattern differentiation), >>>> Why would you not have patter dx? you can still have an objective evaluation even when doing pattern dx Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Monday, March 20, 2006 4:34 PM Re: Re: pregnancy tx's The issue isn't so much whether practice should be evidence-based, but what are the criteria for evidence? If only specific studies for Chinese herbal medicines matched to biomedical diseases can be included as evidence (without pattern differentiation), it will pretty much eliminate any evidence for its efficacy. Two thousand years of case histories would have to be discarded, and the pattern- based studies done in mainland China in modern times as well. This type of 'evidence' will lead to the complete exclusion of Chinese medicine from modern health care. If the concept of 'evidence' can include the case histories, pattern- based studies of historical record as well as modern times, than these criteria can be used. " Evidence-based " medicine is an often culture-bound phenomenon as presently expressed, that eliminates most of the useful criteria already existing within the body of Chinese medicine. On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:22 PM, suecochrane36 wrote: > I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/ at > University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism > from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as > compulsory units. There is much discussion of whether we are taking > TCM off-track by such an emphasis on western scientific method. Some > of our first graduating students argue that they can now read > research reports critically and understand the flaws and biases > within the available research. Surely a skill we should value. But > I am about to send an email to a student who is considering > withdrawing because of this emphasis within the course! Just as > well TCM is a diverse church! > Sue Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
