Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 I had research modules as part of my standard BSc in TCM. They were worth while and I learned alot. I'm now able to read and understand an RCT and the other different aspects of research. As this is one of the biggest problems TCM faces in the west; getting included into primary care via RCT evidence, research modules should be compulsory for all TCM courses. To be honest, I'm shocked that they are not. Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. Editor Times +44 (0) 208 367 8378 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of suecochrane36 21 March 2006 00:22 Chinese Medicine Re: pregnancy tx's I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/ at University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as compulsory units. There is much discussion of whether we are taking TCM off-track by such an emphasis on western scientific method. Some of our first graduating students argue that they can now read research reports critically and understand the flaws and biases within the available research. Surely a skill we should value. But I am about to send an email to a student who is considering withdrawing because of this emphasis within the course! Just as well TCM is a diverse church! Sue Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus DOM " <alonmarcus wrote: > > I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very > bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, > and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > poorly or just erroneously. > >>>>> > How true > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > leabun1 > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:21 PM > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still think > you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be > possible that there were other factors of your treatment > (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your patients > high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus the > candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or type > 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you never > know, you may be right. > Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all pregnant > women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood > sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to > candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth when > pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are > underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does > spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however indicate > that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may have a > higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite. > > What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not necessarily > directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it > personally. > I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very > bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, > and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in the > vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im not > going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there have > been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over time) > Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was used > in the first place. One study that was never intended by the > researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as > evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the original > evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth) and > if you actually manage to track down the original information, it > generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed to it > in the first place. > > Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese medicine > could use a little more training in western scientific method, > because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their > treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results in a > more analytical way. > Of course this works the other way too, and there are many studies > that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being > researched because the methodology, from a > standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was good. > So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner need > this training and need to be doing these studies themselves. > > Chinese Medicine , > stephenmacallan@ wrote: > > > > Hiya > > > > > > Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root of > all > > > evil " people? > > > > No, I`m not rabid. > > > > Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out. > > > Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal bowel > > > flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most definitely > part > > > of the normal flora of the vagina. > > > > I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted - its a > balance > > issue, not an infection issue. > > > > > > > Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin > > > resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar > levels. > > > That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant women > are > > > more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with > changes > > > to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A > slightly > > > higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy > progresses, > > > or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often combined > with > > > other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE > pregnancy > > > related diabetes is the " gestational " bit. > > > > Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy > changes simply > > make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy caused > caused a > > diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would get > it, but not > > all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get diabetees > when > > pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the pregnancy > which were > > sub-clinical before pregnancy. > > > > > Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora of > the > > > genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it is > > > often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most > certainly > > > can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different > strains, > > > and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly good > at > > > overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " or > > > hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner > leading > > > to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors such > as > > > overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, immunosuppression, > > > antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it worse.) > This > > > sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men it > is > > > not so overt and can indeed be subclinical. > > > If you have any concrete information to back up why you believe > that > > > overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, please > share > > > it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such a > > > complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-) > > > > Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for whom > clearing (re- > > balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the `diabetes`. > There`s been > > a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve diabetes, > other factors > > are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal > poisoning, > > parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe 20 > cases of > > diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the others > improved > > somewhat anyway. > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Lea. > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > > stephenmacallan@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - thrush > is a > > > symptom of > > > > candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of > > > candida > > > > overgrowth in bowel also.. > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth > testing > > > this lady's > > > > > blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated > > > diabetes. If her > > > > > sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the > thrush > > > until her > > > > > glucose level is reduced. > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > Susie Parkinson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " leabun1 " <leabun1@> > > > > > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > > > > > > I think its the pregnancy hormones that > > > > > > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher > blood > > > sugar > > > > > > levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > > > Medicine Times > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > > > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and adjust > > > > > accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication > outside > > > the group > > > > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message > if > > > absolutely > > > > > necessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 The more people scrutinising RCTs, especially those not bias to WM, the more poor WM research will be undermined. We should all learn to read an RCT and critique them. There is also a real lack of TCM practitioners engaged in research into TCM. Most of it is carried out by MDs with little or no knowledge of TCM, hence a lot of the research done is flawed and useless. Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. Editor Times +44 (0) 208 367 8378 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser 21 March 2006 00:31 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: pregnancy tx's So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical studies or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or change results? We seem to uphold these are gospel. This trend is far more common then one realizes as there is a lot of big pharma money depending upon the results. One does not have to travel far to see inappropriate conclusions or misinterpretations of data, it seems to be that the wilder the conclusion the more it is believed. It all comes back to ethics and integrity. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <alonmarcus >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's >Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:47:03 -0800 > >I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and >even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very >bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, >and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done >poorly or just erroneously. > >>>>> >How true > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > leabun1 > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:21 PM > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still think > you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be > possible that there were other factors of your treatment > (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your patients > high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus the > candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or type > 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you never > know, you may be right. > Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all pregnant > women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood > sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to > candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth when > pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are > underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does > spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however indicate > that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may have a > higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite. > > What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not necessarily > directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it > personally. > I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very > bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, > and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in the > vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im not > going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there have > been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over time) > Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was used > in the first place. One study that was never intended by the > researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as > evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the original > evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth) and > if you actually manage to track down the original information, it > generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed to it > in the first place. > > Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese medicine > could use a little more training in western scientific method, > because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their > treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results in a > more analytical way. > Of course this works the other way too, and there are many studies > that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being > researched because the methodology, from a > standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was good. > So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner need > this training and need to be doing these studies themselves. > > Chinese Medicine , > stephenmacallan wrote: > > > > Hiya > > > > > > Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root of > all > > > evil " people? > > > > No, I`m not rabid. > > > > Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out. > > > Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal bowel > > > flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most definitely > part > > > of the normal flora of the vagina. > > > > I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted - its a > balance > > issue, not an infection issue. > > > > > > > Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin > > > resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar > levels. > > > That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant women > are > > > more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with > changes > > > to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A > slightly > > > higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy > progresses, > > > or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often combined > with > > > other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE > pregnancy > > > related diabetes is the " gestational " bit. > > > > Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy > changes simply > > make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy caused > caused a > > diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would get > it, but not > > all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get diabetees > when > > pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the pregnancy > which were > > sub-clinical before pregnancy. > > > > > Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora of > the > > > genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it is > > > often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most > certainly > > > can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different > strains, > > > and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly good > at > > > overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " or > > > hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner > leading > > > to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors such > as > > > overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, immunosuppression, > > > antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it worse.) > This > > > sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men it > is > > > not so overt and can indeed be subclinical. > > > If you have any concrete information to back up why you believe > that > > > overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, please > share > > > it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such a > > > complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-) > > > > Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for whom > clearing (re- > > balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the `diabetes`. > There`s been > > a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve diabetes, > other factors > > are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal > poisoning, > > parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe 20 > cases of > > diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the others > improved > > somewhat anyway. > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Lea. > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > > stephenmacallan@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - thrush > is a > > > symptom of > > > > candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of > > > candida > > > > overgrowth in bowel also.. > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth > testing > > > this lady's > > > > > blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated > > > diabetes. If her > > > > > sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the > thrush > > > until her > > > > > glucose level is reduced. > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > Susie Parkinson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " leabun1 " <leabun1@> > > > > > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > > > > > > I think its the pregnancy hormones that > > > > > > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher > blood > > > sugar > > > > > > levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > > > Medicine Times > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > > > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and adjust > > > > > accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication > outside > > > the group > > > > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message > if > > > absolutely > > > > > necessary. > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 I totally agree with you Zev. We need to bend the RCT model to fit TCM and not the other way round. At the moment, the RCT model only harms TCM by not allowing a TCM pattern analysis into the inclusion/exclusion criteria. Many have talked about TCM not needing to be evaluated using RCTs to get into primary health care. This just isn't gonna happen. Having two thousand years of history just isn't good enough, especially when no one was editing the published texts, or evaluating the methods along the way. Case studies are too bias to be included as rigorous research and can all to easily be altered. Just look at some of the textbook case studies that get published in many journals and you'll see they are just too perfect to be true. The rules of what is evidence based research need to be altered to take into account TCM. I would categorise the main points as: 1. Pattern analysis in the inclusion/exclusion criteria, 2. Side effects off set against benefits (so WM is evaluated properly), 3. TCM is evaluated against the market leader and not a sham form of therapy. 4. Long term follow up to evaluate the effects properly. Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. Editor Times +44 (0) 208 367 8378 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg 21 March 2006 00:35 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: pregnancy tx's The issue isn't so much whether practice should be evidence-based, but what are the criteria for evidence? If only specific studies for Chinese herbal medicines matched to biomedical diseases can be included as evidence (without pattern differentiation), it will pretty much eliminate any evidence for its efficacy. Two thousand years of case histories would have to be discarded, and the pattern- based studies done in mainland China in modern times as well. This type of 'evidence' will lead to the complete exclusion of Chinese medicine from modern health care. If the concept of 'evidence' can include the case histories, pattern- based studies of historical record as well as modern times, than these criteria can be used. " Evidence-based " medicine is an often culture-bound phenomenon as presently expressed, that eliminates most of the useful criteria already existing within the body of Chinese medicine. On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:22 PM, suecochrane36 wrote: > I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/ at > University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism > from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as > compulsory units. There is much discussion of whether we are taking > TCM off-track by such an emphasis on western scientific method. Some > of our first graduating students argue that they can now read > research reports critically and understand the flaws and biases > within the available research. Surely a skill we should value. But > I am about to send an email to a student who is considering > withdrawing because of this emphasis within the course! Just as > well TCM is a diverse church! > Sue Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 mike Bowser wrote: > So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical > studies or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or > change results? Hi Mike! Oh, yes. It appears to be a trend to just publish the conclusion, not the method or (heaven forbid) the data. Maybe I just don't know where to find the good stuff? Regards, Pete Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 Pete, The one that I find incredible is a conclusion without any merit or that was not even what was studied. Like the one I read awhile ago that studied acupuncture for something but then concluded that LAc should not be in practice. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >petetheisen <petetheisen >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's >Tue, 21 Mar 2006 05:49:59 -0500 > >mike Bowser wrote: > > So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical > > studies or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or > > change results? > >Hi Mike! > >Oh, yes. It appears to be a trend to just publish the conclusion, not >the method or (heaven forbid) the data. Maybe I just don't know where to >find the good stuff? > >Regards, > >Pete Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 It is good science to be critical, that is what makes a good scientist. If a study model does not fit the mold then find one that does work. I will try to find Ted Kaptchuk's paper on this and why there is much concern with trying to apply it what we do. It is also important to separate research from real life practice. It sometimes sounds like we want to work in a bubble with very limited variables, this is not possible or probable. On the other hand, it is good to have info and know what and how to read studies. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >RE: Re: pregnancy tx's >Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:40:22 -0000 > >The more people scrutinising RCTs, especially those not bias to WM, the >more >poor WM research will be undermined. We should all learn to read an RCT and >critique them. > >There is also a real lack of TCM practitioners engaged in research into >TCM. >Most of it is carried out by MDs with little or no knowledge of TCM, hence >a >lot of the research done is flawed and useless. > >Warm regards, > >Attilio D'Alberto >Doctor of (Beijing, China) >B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. >Editor > Times >+44 (0) 208 367 8378 >enquiries > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike >Bowser >21 March 2006 00:31 >Chinese Medicine >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > > > >So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical studies >or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or change results? >We > >seem to uphold these are gospel. This trend is far more common then one >realizes as there is a lot of big pharma money depending upon the results. >One does not have to travel far to see inappropriate conclusions or >misinterpretations of data, it seems to be that the wilder the conclusion >the more it is believed. It all comes back to ethics and integrity. > >Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > " " <alonmarcus > >Chinese Medicine > ><Chinese Medicine > > >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > >Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:47:03 -0800 > > > >I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > >even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very > >bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, > >and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > >poorly or just erroneously. > > >>>>> > >How true > > > > > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > > > - > > leabun1 > > Chinese Medicine > > Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:21 PM > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still think > > you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be > > possible that there were other factors of your treatment > > (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your patients > > high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus the > > candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or type > > 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you never > > know, you may be right. > > Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all pregnant > > women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood > > sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to > > candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth when > > pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are > > underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does > > spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however indicate > > that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may have a > > higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite. > > > > What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not necessarily > > directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it > > personally. > > I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > > even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very > > bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, > > and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > > poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in the > > vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im not > > going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there have > > been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over time) > > Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was used > > in the first place. One study that was never intended by the > > researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as > > evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the original > > evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth) and > > if you actually manage to track down the original information, it > > generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed to it > > in the first place. > > > > Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese medicine > > could use a little more training in western scientific method, > > because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their > > treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results in a > > more analytical way. > > Of course this works the other way too, and there are many studies > > that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being > > researched because the methodology, from a > > standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was good. > > So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner need > > this training and need to be doing these studies themselves. > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > stephenmacallan wrote: > > > > > > Hiya > > > > > > > > Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root of > > all > > > > evil " people? > > > > > > No, I`m not rabid. > > > > > > Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out. > > > > Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal bowel > > > > flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most definitely > > part > > > > of the normal flora of the vagina. > > > > > > I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted - its a > > balance > > > issue, not an infection issue. > > > > > > > > > > Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin > > > > resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar > > levels. > > > > That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant women > > are > > > > more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with > > changes > > > > to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A > > slightly > > > > higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy > > progresses, > > > > or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often combined > > with > > > > other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE > > pregnancy > > > > related diabetes is the " gestational " bit. > > > > > > Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy > > changes simply > > > make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy caused > > caused a > > > diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would get > > it, but not > > > all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get diabetees > > when > > > pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the pregnancy > > which were > > > sub-clinical before pregnancy. > > > > > > > Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora of > > the > > > > genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it is > > > > often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most > > certainly > > > > can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different > > strains, > > > > and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly good > > at > > > > overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " or > > > > hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner > > leading > > > > to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors such > > as > > > > overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, immunosuppression, > > > > antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it worse.) > > This > > > > sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men it > > is > > > > not so overt and can indeed be subclinical. > > > > If you have any concrete information to back up why you believe > > that > > > > overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, please > > share > > > > it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such a > > > > complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-) > > > > > > Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for whom > > clearing (re- > > > balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the `diabetes`. > > There`s been > > > a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve diabetes, > > other factors > > > are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal > > poisoning, > > > parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe 20 > > cases of > > > diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the others > > improved > > > somewhat anyway. > > > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Lea. > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > > > stephenmacallan@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - thrush > > is a > > > > symptom of > > > > > candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of > > > > candida > > > > > overgrowth in bowel also.. > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth > > testing > > > > this lady's > > > > > > blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated > > > > diabetes. If her > > > > > > sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the > > thrush > > > > until her > > > > > > glucose level is reduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Susie Parkinson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " leabun1 " <leabun1@> > > > > > > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think its the pregnancy hormones that > > > > > > > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher > > blood > > > > sugar > > > > > > > levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > > > > Medicine Times > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > > > > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and adjust > > > > > > accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication > > outside > > > > the group > > > > > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message > > if > > > > absolutely > > > > > > necessary. > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 I think this is an educational concern over what our interaction with modern healthcare will be. Will we be more focused upon modern knowledge, classical knowledge or try to do both. Schools in the states have a long ways to go to get the best of both worlds. I would like to hear how you have achieved this blending. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >RE: Re: pregnancy tx's >Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:36:27 -0000 > >I had research modules as part of my standard BSc in TCM. They were worth >while and I learned alot. I'm now able to read and understand an RCT and >the >other different aspects of research. As this is one of the biggest problems >TCM faces in the west; getting included into primary care via RCT evidence, >research modules should be compulsory for all TCM courses. To be honest, >I'm >shocked that they are not. > >Warm regards, > >Attilio D'Alberto >Doctor of (Beijing, China) >B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. >Editor > Times >+44 (0) 208 367 8378 >enquiries > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of >suecochrane36 >21 March 2006 00:22 >Chinese Medicine >Re: pregnancy tx's > > > >I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/ at >University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism >from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as >compulsory units. There is much discussion of whether we are taking >TCM off-track by such an emphasis on western scientific method. Some >of our first graduating students argue that they can now read >research reports critically and understand the flaws and biases >within the available research. Surely a skill we should value. But >I am about to send an email to a student who is considering >withdrawing because of this emphasis within the course! Just as >well TCM is a diverse church! >Sue >Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus >DOM " <alonmarcus wrote: > > > > I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > > even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of >very > > bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky >ways, > > and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > > poorly or just erroneously. > > >>>>> > > How true > > > > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > > > - > > leabun1 > > Chinese Medicine > > Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:21 PM > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still >think > > you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be > > possible that there were other factors of your treatment > > (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your >patients > > high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus >the > > candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or >type > > 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you >never > > know, you may be right. > > Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all >pregnant > > women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood > > sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to > > candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth >when > > pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are > > underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does > > spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however >indicate > > that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may >have a > > higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite. > > > > What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not >necessarily > > directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it > > personally. > > I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies >and > > even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of >very > > bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky >ways, > > and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > > poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in >the > > vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im >not > > going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there >have > > been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over >time) > > Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was >used > > in the first place. One study that was never intended by the > > researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as > > evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the >original > > evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth) >and > > if you actually manage to track down the original information, >it > > generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed to >it > > in the first place. > > > > Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese >medicine > > could use a little more training in western scientific method, > > because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their > > treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results >in a > > more analytical way. > > Of course this works the other way too, and there are many >studies > > that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being > > researched because the methodology, from a > > standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was >good. > > So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner >need > > this training and need to be doing these studies themselves. > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > stephenmacallan@ wrote: > > > > > > Hiya > > > > > > > > Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root >of > > all > > > > evil " people? > > > > > > No, I`m not rabid. > > > > > > Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out. > > > > Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal >bowel > > > > flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most >definitely > > part > > > > of the normal flora of the vagina. > > > > > > I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted - >its a > > balance > > > issue, not an infection issue. > > > > > > > > > > Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin > > > > resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar > > levels. > > > > That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant >women > > are > > > > more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with > > changes > > > > to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A > > slightly > > > > higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy > > progresses, > > > > or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often >combined > > with > > > > other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE > > pregnancy > > > > related diabetes is the " gestational " bit. > > > > > > Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy > > changes simply > > > make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy >caused > > caused a > > > diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would >get > > it, but not > > > all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get >diabetees > > when > > > pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the >pregnancy > > which were > > > sub-clinical before pregnancy. > > > > > > > Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora >of > > the > > > > genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it >is > > > > often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most > > certainly > > > > can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different > > strains, > > > > and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly >good > > at > > > > overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " >or > > > > hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner > > leading > > > > to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors >such > > as > > > > overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, >immunosuppression, > > > > antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it >worse.) > > This > > > > sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men >it > > is > > > > not so overt and can indeed be subclinical. > > > > If you have any concrete information to back up why you >believe > > that > > > > overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, >please > > share > > > > it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such >a > > > > complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-) > > > > > > Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for >whom > > clearing (re- > > > balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the >`diabetes`. > > There`s been > > > a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve >diabetes, > > other factors > > > are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal > > poisoning, > > > parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe >20 > > cases of > > > diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the >others > > improved > > > somewhat anyway. > > > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Lea. > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > > > stephenmacallan@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - >thrush > > is a > > > > symptom of > > > > > candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom >of > > > > candida > > > > > overgrowth in bowel also.. > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth > > testing > > > > this lady's > > > > > > blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of >untreated > > > > diabetes. If her > > > > > > sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the > > thrush > > > > until her > > > > > > glucose level is reduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Susie Parkinson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " leabun1 " <leabun1@> > > > > > > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think its the pregnancy hormones that > > > > > > > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and >higher > > blood > > > > sugar > > > > > > > levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at >Chinese > > > > Medicine Times > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > > > > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and adjust > > > > > > accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication > > outside > > > > the group > > > > > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this >message > > if > > > > absolutely > > > > > > necessary. > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 It sounds like you need to conduct a study with two filters that allow for population entry. One is the modern chief complaint or illness and the second is to have only those with a specific TCM pattern. Should not be that hard as long as one chooses a broad problem like low back pain. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >RE: Re: pregnancy tx's >Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:31:53 -0000 > >The inclusion of a pattern analysis into RCTs is something I've been >thinking and talking about for sometime. It is the crux of the problem TCM >faces in getting evaluated as evidence based research. No one has come up >with the solution of including a TCM pattern analysis into the RCT model. >The problem is that there are many different schools of thought within TCM, >many different diagnosis to the same problem and these cannot be expressed >within a strict RCT framework. I was thinking about using the statistically >significant model on the pattern analysis as well after asking a committee >of 10 leading pattern analysis experts. What do others think to this? > >Warm regards, > >Attilio D'Alberto >Doctor of (Beijing, China) >B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. >Editor > Times >+44 (0) 208 367 8378 >enquiries > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Alon >Marcus DOM >21 March 2006 00:38 >Chinese Medicine >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > > > >If only specific studies for >Chinese herbal medicines matched to biomedical diseases can be >included as evidence (without pattern differentiation), > >>>> >Why would you not have patter dx? >you can still have an objective evaluation even when doing pattern dx > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > > Chinese Medicine > Monday, March 20, 2006 4:34 PM > Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > > > The issue isn't so much whether practice should be evidence-based, > but what are the criteria for evidence? If only specific studies for > Chinese herbal medicines matched to biomedical diseases can be > included as evidence (without pattern differentiation), it will > pretty much eliminate any evidence for its efficacy. Two thousand > years of case histories would have to be discarded, and the pattern- > based studies done in mainland China in modern times as well. This > type of 'evidence' will lead to the complete exclusion of Chinese > medicine from modern health care. > > If the concept of 'evidence' can include the case histories, pattern- > based studies of historical record as well as modern times, than > these criteria can be used. > > " Evidence-based " medicine is an often culture-bound phenomenon as > presently expressed, that eliminates most of the useful criteria > already existing within the body of Chinese medicine. > > > On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:22 PM, suecochrane36 wrote: > > > I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/ at > > University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism > > from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as > > compulsory units. There is much discussion of whether we are taking > > TCM off-track by such an emphasis on western scientific method. Some > > of our first graduating students argue that they can now read > > research reports critically and understand the flaws and biases > > within the available research. Surely a skill we should value. But > > I am about to send an email to a student who is considering > > withdrawing because of this emphasis within the course! Just as > > well TCM is a diverse church! > > Sue > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 Zev, There are trends that come and go and many times these are related to the current politics. I would not expect much help for our profession to come from the right (neo-cons) as they tend to favor policies that promote big expensive procedures and the medical-insurance industry. This is a time of status quo and reflection to decide upon course of action when we are able to act, then do so without hesitation. Research can be enlightening and so can getting to know the insurance/governmental side of things as these also impact what and how we conduct our business. The next generations of graduates seems to be willing to get more involved with the politics and wanting to change things to make more ops for themselves and later generations. That is what I am seeing from those who I interact with at my college. By the way, one of your old colleges (Emperor's), has set up some nice inter-disciplinary ops w/i and hospital (Freeman Memorial). I think that says a lot. I think we need to continue to conduct research but also push for new collaborative efforts in hospitals. Few chiro's ever get in the doors to these ops. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's >Mon, 20 Mar 2006 16:35:18 -0800 > >Mike, > The situation seems to be getting worse. The more funding, the >more bias. > > >On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:30 PM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical > > studies > > or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or change > > results? We > > seem to uphold these are gospel. This trend is far more common > > then one > > realizes as there is a lot of big pharma money depending upon the > > results. > > One does not have to travel far to see inappropriate conclusions or > > misinterpretations of data, it seems to be that the wilder the > > conclusion > > the more it is believed. It all comes back to ethics and integrity. > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > > > >> " " <alonmarcus > >> Chinese Medicine > >> <Chinese Medicine > > >> Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > >> Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:47:03 -0800 > >> > >> I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > >> even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very > >> bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, > >> and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > >> poorly or just erroneously. > >>>>>>> > >> How true > >> > >> > >> > >> Oakland, CA 94609 > >> > >> > >> - > >> leabun1 > >> Chinese Medicine > >> Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:21 PM > >> Re: pregnancy tx's > >> > >> > >> Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still think > >> you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be > >> possible that there were other factors of your treatment > >> (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your patients > >> high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus the > >> candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or > >> type > >> 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you > >> never > >> know, you may be right. > >> Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all pregnant > >> women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood > >> sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to > >> candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth when > >> pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are > >> underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does > >> spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however > >> indicate > >> that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may have a > >> higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite. > >> > >> What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not > >> necessarily > >> directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it > >> personally. > >> I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > >> even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very > >> bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky > >> ways, > >> and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > >> poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in the > >> vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im > >> not > >> going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there have > >> been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over time) > >> Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was > >> used > >> in the first place. One study that was never intended by the > >> researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as > >> evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the > >> original > >> evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth) and > >> if you actually manage to track down the original information, it > >> generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed to it > >> in the first place. > >> > >> Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese > >> medicine > >> could use a little more training in western scientific method, > >> because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their > >> treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results > >> in a > >> more analytical way. > >> Of course this works the other way too, and there are many studies > >> that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being > >> researched because the methodology, from a > >> standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was good. > >> So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner > >> need > >> this training and need to be doing these studies themselves. > >> > >> Chinese Medicine , > >> stephenmacallan wrote: > >>> > >>> Hiya > >>>> > >>>> Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root of > >> all > >>>> evil " people? > >>> > >>> No, I`m not rabid. > >>> > >>> Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out. > >>>> Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal bowel > >>>> flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most definitely > >> part > >>>> of the normal flora of the vagina. > >>> > >>> I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted - its a > >> balance > >>> issue, not an infection issue. > >>> > >>> > >>>> Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin > >>>> resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar > >> levels. > >>>> That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant women > >> are > >>>> more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with > >> changes > >>>> to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A > >> slightly > >>>> higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy > >> progresses, > >>>> or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often combined > >> with > >>>> other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE > >> pregnancy > >>>> related diabetes is the " gestational " bit. > >>> > >>> Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy > >> changes simply > >>> make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy caused > >> caused a > >>> diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would get > >> it, but not > >>> all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get diabetees > >> when > >>> pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the pregnancy > >> which were > >>> sub-clinical before pregnancy. > >>> > >>>> Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora of > >> the > >>>> genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it is > >>>> often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most > >> certainly > >>>> can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different > >> strains, > >>>> and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly good > >> at > >>>> overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " or > >>>> hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner > >> leading > >>>> to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors such > >> as > >>>> overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, immunosuppression, > >>>> antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it worse.) > >> This > >>>> sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men it > >> is > >>>> not so overt and can indeed be subclinical. > >>>> If you have any concrete information to back up why you believe > >> that > >>>> overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, please > >> share > >>>> it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such a > >>>> complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-) > >>> > >>> Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for whom > >> clearing (re- > >>> balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the `diabetes`. > >> There`s been > >>> a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve diabetes, > >> other factors > >>> are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal > >> poisoning, > >>> parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe 20 > >> cases of > >>> diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the others > >> improved > >>> somewhat anyway. > >>> > >>> stephen > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> Lea. > >>>> > >>>> Chinese Medicine , > >>>> stephenmacallan@ wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Hello, > >>>>> thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - thrush > >> is a > >>>> symptom of > >>>>> candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of > >>>> candida > >>>>> overgrowth in bowel also.. > >>>>> > >>>>> regards > >>>>> > >>>>> stephen > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth > >> testing > >>>> this lady's > >>>>>> blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated > >>>> diabetes. If her > >>>>>> sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the > >> thrush > >>>> until her > >>>>>> glucose level is reduced. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regards > >>>>>> Susie Parkinson > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> " leabun1 " <leabun1@> > >>>>>>> Re: pregnancy tx's > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I think its the pregnancy hormones that > >>>>>>> leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher > >> blood > >>>> sugar > >>>>>>> levels. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > >>>> Medicine Times > >>>>>> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > >>>>>> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >> > >>>> and adjust > >>>>>> accordingly. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication > >> outside > >>>> the group > >>>>>> requires prior permission from the author. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Please consider the environment and only print this message > >> if > >>>> absolutely > >>>>>> necessary. > >>>>>> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 If you're talking about Ted Kaptchuk's views on the placebo effect in TCM not being included in the RCT model, I totally disagree. The placebo effect is in everything and I believe is not as powerful in TCM as people make out. I believe it's being used as a cop-out to TCM being studied within an RCT model. Get the diagnosis and treatment right and we'll get some good results. And we'll only get that if we can use a pattern analysis in the inclusion/exclusion criteria. Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. Editor Times +44 (0) 208 367 8378 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser 21 March 2006 17:54 Chinese Medicine RE: Re: pregnancy tx's It is good science to be critical, that is what makes a good scientist. If a study model does not fit the mold then find one that does work. I will try to find Ted Kaptchuk's paper on this and why there is much concern with trying to apply it what we do. It is also important to separate research from real life practice. It sometimes sounds like we want to work in a bubble with very limited variables, this is not possible or probable. On the other hand, it is good to have info and know what and how to read studies. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >RE: Re: pregnancy tx's >Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:40:22 -0000 > >The more people scrutinising RCTs, especially those not bias to WM, the >more >poor WM research will be undermined. We should all learn to read an RCT and >critique them. > >There is also a real lack of TCM practitioners engaged in research into >TCM. >Most of it is carried out by MDs with little or no knowledge of TCM, hence >a >lot of the research done is flawed and useless. > >Warm regards, > >Attilio D'Alberto >Doctor of (Beijing, China) >B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. >Editor > Times >+44 (0) 208 367 8378 >enquiries > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike >Bowser >21 March 2006 00:31 >Chinese Medicine >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > > > >So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical studies >or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or change results? >We > >seem to uphold these are gospel. This trend is far more common then one >realizes as there is a lot of big pharma money depending upon the results. >One does not have to travel far to see inappropriate conclusions or >misinterpretations of data, it seems to be that the wilder the conclusion >the more it is believed. It all comes back to ethics and integrity. > >Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > " " <alonmarcus > >Chinese Medicine > ><Chinese Medicine > > >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > >Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:47:03 -0800 > > > >I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > >even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very > >bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, > >and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > >poorly or just erroneously. > > >>>>> > >How true > > > > > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > > > - > > leabun1 > > Chinese Medicine > > Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:21 PM > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still think > > you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be > > possible that there were other factors of your treatment > > (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your patients > > high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus the > > candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or type > > 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you never > > know, you may be right. > > Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all pregnant > > women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood > > sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to > > candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth when > > pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are > > underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does > > spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however indicate > > that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may have a > > higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite. > > > > What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not necessarily > > directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it > > personally. > > I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > > even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very > > bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, > > and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > > poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in the > > vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im not > > going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there have > > been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over time) > > Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was used > > in the first place. One study that was never intended by the > > researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as > > evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the original > > evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth) and > > if you actually manage to track down the original information, it > > generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed to it > > in the first place. > > > > Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese medicine > > could use a little more training in western scientific method, > > because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their > > treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results in a > > more analytical way. > > Of course this works the other way too, and there are many studies > > that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being > > researched because the methodology, from a > > standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was good. > > So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner need > > this training and need to be doing these studies themselves. > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > stephenmacallan wrote: > > > > > > Hiya > > > > > > > > Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root of > > all > > > > evil " people? > > > > > > No, I`m not rabid. > > > > > > Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out. > > > > Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal bowel > > > > flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most definitely > > part > > > > of the normal flora of the vagina. > > > > > > I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted - its a > > balance > > > issue, not an infection issue. > > > > > > > > > > Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin > > > > resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar > > levels. > > > > That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant women > > are > > > > more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with > > changes > > > > to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A > > slightly > > > > higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy > > progresses, > > > > or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often combined > > with > > > > other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE > > pregnancy > > > > related diabetes is the " gestational " bit. > > > > > > Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy > > changes simply > > > make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy caused > > caused a > > > diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would get > > it, but not > > > all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get diabetees > > when > > > pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the pregnancy > > which were > > > sub-clinical before pregnancy. > > > > > > > Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora of > > the > > > > genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it is > > > > often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most > > certainly > > > > can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different > > strains, > > > > and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly good > > at > > > > overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " or > > > > hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner > > leading > > > > to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors such > > as > > > > overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, immunosuppression, > > > > antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it worse.) > > This > > > > sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men it > > is > > > > not so overt and can indeed be subclinical. > > > > If you have any concrete information to back up why you believe > > that > > > > overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, please > > share > > > > it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such a > > > > complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-) > > > > > > Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for whom > > clearing (re- > > > balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the `diabetes`. > > There`s been > > > a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve diabetes, > > other factors > > > are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal > > poisoning, > > > parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe 20 > > cases of > > > diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the others > > improved > > > somewhat anyway. > > > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Lea. > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > > > stephenmacallan@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - thrush > > is a > > > > symptom of > > > > > candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of > > > > candida > > > > > overgrowth in bowel also.. > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth > > testing > > > > this lady's > > > > > > blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated > > > > diabetes. If her > > > > > > sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the > > thrush > > > > until her > > > > > > glucose level is reduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Susie Parkinson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " leabun1 " <leabun1@> > > > > > > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think its the pregnancy hormones that > > > > > > > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher > > blood > > > > sugar > > > > > > > levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > > > > Medicine Times > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > > > > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and adjust > > > > > > accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication > > outside > > > > the group > > > > > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message > > if > > > > absolutely > > > > > > necessary. > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 I can't disagree. For me, the key issue is honesty in presenting what we can offer, what Chinese medicine is really about. We should never misrepresent it. However, most of us have a lot of work to do in clearly understanding the subject at hand. On Mar 21, 2006, at 10:13 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > Zev, > > There are trends that come and go and many times these are related > to the > current politics. I would not expect much help for our profession > to come > from the right (neo-cons) as they tend to favor policies that > promote big > expensive procedures and the medical-insurance industry. This is a > time of > status quo and reflection to decide upon course of action when we > are able > to act, then do so without hesitation. Research can be > enlightening and so > can getting to know the insurance/governmental side of things as > these also > impact what and how we conduct our business. The next generations of > graduates seems to be willing to get more involved with the > politics and > wanting to change things to make more ops for themselves and later > generations. That is what I am seeing from those who I interact > with at my > college. By the way, one of your old colleges (Emperor's), has > set up some > nice inter-disciplinary ops w/i and hospital (Freeman Memorial). I > think > that says a lot. I think we need to continue to conduct research > but also > push for new collaborative efforts in hospitals. Few chiro's ever > get in > the doors to these ops. > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > >> " " <zrosenbe >> Chinese Medicine >> Chinese Medicine >> Re: Re: pregnancy tx's >> Mon, 20 Mar 2006 16:35:18 -0800 >> >> Mike, >> The situation seems to be getting worse. The more funding, the >> more bias. >> >> >> On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:30 PM, mike Bowser wrote: >> >>> So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical >>> studies >>> or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or change >>> results? We >>> seem to uphold these are gospel. This trend is far more common >>> then one >>> realizes as there is a lot of big pharma money depending upon the >>> results. >>> One does not have to travel far to see inappropriate conclusions or >>> misinterpretations of data, it seems to be that the wilder the >>> conclusion >>> the more it is believed. It all comes back to ethics and integrity. >>> >>> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> " " <alonmarcus >>>> Chinese Medicine >>>> <Chinese Medicine > >>>> Re: Re: pregnancy tx's >>>> Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:47:03 -0800 >>>> >>>> I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and >>>> even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very >>>> bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky >>>> ways, >>>> and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done >>>> poorly or just erroneously. >>>>>>>>> >>>> How true >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Oakland, CA 94609 >>>> >>>> >>>> - >>>> leabun1 >>>> Chinese Medicine >>>> Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:21 PM >>>> Re: pregnancy tx's >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still >>>> think >>>> you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be >>>> possible that there were other factors of your treatment >>>> (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your >>>> patients >>>> high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus >>>> the >>>> candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or >>>> type >>>> 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you >>>> never >>>> know, you may be right. >>>> Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all pregnant >>>> women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood >>>> sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to >>>> candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth when >>>> pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are >>>> underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does >>>> spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however >>>> indicate >>>> that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may >>>> have a >>>> higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite. >>>> >>>> What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not >>>> necessarily >>>> directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it >>>> personally. >>>> I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and >>>> even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of >>>> very >>>> bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky >>>> ways, >>>> and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done >>>> poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in the >>>> vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im >>>> not >>>> going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there >>>> have >>>> been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over >>>> time) >>>> Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was >>>> used >>>> in the first place. One study that was never intended by the >>>> researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as >>>> evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the >>>> original >>>> evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth) >>>> and >>>> if you actually manage to track down the original information, it >>>> generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed >>>> to it >>>> in the first place. >>>> >>>> Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese >>>> medicine >>>> could use a little more training in western scientific method, >>>> because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their >>>> treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results >>>> in a >>>> more analytical way. >>>> Of course this works the other way too, and there are many >>>> studies >>>> that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being >>>> researched because the methodology, from a >>>> standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was >>>> good. >>>> So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner >>>> need >>>> this training and need to be doing these studies themselves. >>>> >>>> Chinese Medicine , >>>> stephenmacallan wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hiya >>>>>> >>>>>> Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root of >>>> all >>>>>> evil " people? >>>>> >>>>> No, I`m not rabid. >>>>> >>>>> Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out. >>>>>> Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal bowel >>>>>> flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most definitely >>>> part >>>>>> of the normal flora of the vagina. >>>>> >>>>> I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted - its a >>>> balance >>>>> issue, not an infection issue. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin >>>>>> resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar >>>> levels. >>>>>> That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant women >>>> are >>>>>> more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with >>>> changes >>>>>> to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A >>>> slightly >>>>>> higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy >>>> progresses, >>>>>> or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often combined >>>> with >>>>>> other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE >>>> pregnancy >>>>>> related diabetes is the " gestational " bit. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy >>>> changes simply >>>>> make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy caused >>>> caused a >>>>> diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would get >>>> it, but not >>>>> all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get diabetees >>>> when >>>>> pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the pregnancy >>>> which were >>>>> sub-clinical before pregnancy. >>>>> >>>>>> Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora of >>>> the >>>>>> genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it is >>>>>> often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most >>>> certainly >>>>>> can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different >>>> strains, >>>>>> and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly good >>>> at >>>>>> overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " or >>>>>> hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner >>>> leading >>>>>> to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors such >>>> as >>>>>> overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, immunosuppression, >>>>>> antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it worse.) >>>> This >>>>>> sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men it >>>> is >>>>>> not so overt and can indeed be subclinical. >>>>>> If you have any concrete information to back up why you believe >>>> that >>>>>> overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, please >>>> share >>>>>> it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such a >>>>>> complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-) >>>>> >>>>> Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for whom >>>> clearing (re- >>>>> balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the `diabetes`. >>>> There`s been >>>>> a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve diabetes, >>>> other factors >>>>> are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal >>>> poisoning, >>>>> parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe 20 >>>> cases of >>>>> diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the others >>>> improved >>>>> somewhat anyway. >>>>> >>>>> stephen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Lea. >>>>>> >>>>>> Chinese Medicine , >>>>>> stephenmacallan@ wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - thrush >>>> is a >>>>>> symptom of >>>>>>> candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of >>>>>> candida >>>>>>> overgrowth in bowel also.. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> regards >>>>>>> >>>>>>> stephen >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth >>>> testing >>>>>> this lady's >>>>>>>> blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated >>>>>> diabetes. If her >>>>>>>> sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the >>>> thrush >>>>>> until her >>>>>>>> glucose level is reduced. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>> Susie Parkinson >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> " leabun1 " <leabun1@> >>>>>>>>> Re: pregnancy tx's >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think its the pregnancy hormones that >>>>>>>>> leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher >>>> blood >>>>>> sugar >>>>>>>>> levels. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese >>>>>> Medicine Times >>>>>>>> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, >>>>>>>> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> and adjust >>>>>>>> accordingly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication >>>> outside >>>>>> the group >>>>>>>> requires prior permission from the author. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please consider the environment and only print this message >>>> if >>>>>> absolutely >>>>>>>> necessary. >>>>>>>> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 Zev, I could not agree with you more. My contact with students has shown me we often do not know how to define ourselves let alone what it is that we do. Sad, truly sad. I also see this within the more established chiro program as well (just an FYI). Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's >Tue, 21 Mar 2006 11:25:51 -0800 > >I can't disagree. For me, the key issue is honesty in presenting >what we can offer, what Chinese medicine is really about. We should >never misrepresent it. However, most of us have a lot of work to do >in clearly understanding the subject at hand. > > >On Mar 21, 2006, at 10:13 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > Zev, > > > > There are trends that come and go and many times these are related > > to the > > current politics. I would not expect much help for our profession > > to come > > from the right (neo-cons) as they tend to favor policies that > > promote big > > expensive procedures and the medical-insurance industry. This is a > > time of > > status quo and reflection to decide upon course of action when we > > are able > > to act, then do so without hesitation. Research can be > > enlightening and so > > can getting to know the insurance/governmental side of things as > > these also > > impact what and how we conduct our business. The next generations of > > graduates seems to be willing to get more involved with the > > politics and > > wanting to change things to make more ops for themselves and later > > generations. That is what I am seeing from those who I interact > > with at my > > college. By the way, one of your old colleges (Emperor's), has > > set up some > > nice inter-disciplinary ops w/i and hospital (Freeman Memorial). I > > think > > that says a lot. I think we need to continue to conduct research > > but also > > push for new collaborative efforts in hospitals. Few chiro's ever > > get in > > the doors to these ops. > > > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > > > >> " " <zrosenbe > >> Chinese Medicine > >> Chinese Medicine > >> Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > >> Mon, 20 Mar 2006 16:35:18 -0800 > >> > >> Mike, > >> The situation seems to be getting worse. The more funding, the > >> more bias. > >> > >> > >> On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:30 PM, mike Bowser wrote: > >> > >>> So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical > >>> studies > >>> or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or change > >>> results? We > >>> seem to uphold these are gospel. This trend is far more common > >>> then one > >>> realizes as there is a lot of big pharma money depending upon the > >>> results. > >>> One does not have to travel far to see inappropriate conclusions or > >>> misinterpretations of data, it seems to be that the wilder the > >>> conclusion > >>> the more it is believed. It all comes back to ethics and integrity. > >>> > >>> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> " " <alonmarcus > >>>> Chinese Medicine > >>>> <Chinese Medicine > > >>>> Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > >>>> Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:47:03 -0800 > >>>> > >>>> I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > >>>> even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very > >>>> bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky > >>>> ways, > >>>> and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > >>>> poorly or just erroneously. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> How true > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Oakland, CA 94609 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> - > >>>> leabun1 > >>>> Chinese Medicine > >>>> Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:21 PM > >>>> Re: pregnancy tx's > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still > >>>> think > >>>> you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be > >>>> possible that there were other factors of your treatment > >>>> (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your > >>>> patients > >>>> high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus > >>>> the > >>>> candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or > >>>> type > >>>> 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you > >>>> never > >>>> know, you may be right. > >>>> Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all pregnant > >>>> women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood > >>>> sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to > >>>> candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth when > >>>> pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are > >>>> underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does > >>>> spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however > >>>> indicate > >>>> that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may > >>>> have a > >>>> higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite. > >>>> > >>>> What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not > >>>> necessarily > >>>> directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it > >>>> personally. > >>>> I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > >>>> even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of > >>>> very > >>>> bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky > >>>> ways, > >>>> and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > >>>> poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in the > >>>> vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im > >>>> not > >>>> going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there > >>>> have > >>>> been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over > >>>> time) > >>>> Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was > >>>> used > >>>> in the first place. One study that was never intended by the > >>>> researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as > >>>> evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the > >>>> original > >>>> evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth) > >>>> and > >>>> if you actually manage to track down the original information, it > >>>> generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed > >>>> to it > >>>> in the first place. > >>>> > >>>> Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese > >>>> medicine > >>>> could use a little more training in western scientific method, > >>>> because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their > >>>> treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results > >>>> in a > >>>> more analytical way. > >>>> Of course this works the other way too, and there are many > >>>> studies > >>>> that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being > >>>> researched because the methodology, from a > >>>> standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was > >>>> good. > >>>> So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner > >>>> need > >>>> this training and need to be doing these studies themselves. > >>>> > >>>> Chinese Medicine , > >>>> stephenmacallan wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Hiya > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root of > >>>> all > >>>>>> evil " people? > >>>>> > >>>>> No, I`m not rabid. > >>>>> > >>>>> Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out. > >>>>>> Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal bowel > >>>>>> flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most definitely > >>>> part > >>>>>> of the normal flora of the vagina. > >>>>> > >>>>> I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted - its a > >>>> balance > >>>>> issue, not an infection issue. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin > >>>>>> resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar > >>>> levels. > >>>>>> That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant women > >>>> are > >>>>>> more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with > >>>> changes > >>>>>> to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A > >>>> slightly > >>>>>> higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy > >>>> progresses, > >>>>>> or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often combined > >>>> with > >>>>>> other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE > >>>> pregnancy > >>>>>> related diabetes is the " gestational " bit. > >>>>> > >>>>> Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy > >>>> changes simply > >>>>> make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy caused > >>>> caused a > >>>>> diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would get > >>>> it, but not > >>>>> all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get diabetees > >>>> when > >>>>> pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the pregnancy > >>>> which were > >>>>> sub-clinical before pregnancy. > >>>>> > >>>>>> Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora of > >>>> the > >>>>>> genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it is > >>>>>> often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most > >>>> certainly > >>>>>> can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different > >>>> strains, > >>>>>> and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly good > >>>> at > >>>>>> overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " or > >>>>>> hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner > >>>> leading > >>>>>> to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors such > >>>> as > >>>>>> overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, immunosuppression, > >>>>>> antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it worse.) > >>>> This > >>>>>> sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men it > >>>> is > >>>>>> not so overt and can indeed be subclinical. > >>>>>> If you have any concrete information to back up why you believe > >>>> that > >>>>>> overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, please > >>>> share > >>>>>> it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such a > >>>>>> complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-) > >>>>> > >>>>> Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for whom > >>>> clearing (re- > >>>>> balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the `diabetes`. > >>>> There`s been > >>>>> a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve diabetes, > >>>> other factors > >>>>> are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal > >>>> poisoning, > >>>>> parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe 20 > >>>> cases of > >>>>> diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the others > >>>> improved > >>>>> somewhat anyway. > >>>>> > >>>>> stephen > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>> Lea. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Chinese Medicine , > >>>>>> stephenmacallan@ wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hello, > >>>>>>> thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - thrush > >>>> is a > >>>>>> symptom of > >>>>>>> candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of > >>>>>> candida > >>>>>>> overgrowth in bowel also.. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> regards > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> stephen > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth > >>>> testing > >>>>>> this lady's > >>>>>>>> blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated > >>>>>> diabetes. If her > >>>>>>>> sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the > >>>> thrush > >>>>>> until her > >>>>>>>> glucose level is reduced. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Regards > >>>>>>>> Susie Parkinson > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> " leabun1 " <leabun1@> > >>>>>>>>> Re: pregnancy tx's > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I think its the pregnancy hormones that > >>>>>>>>> leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher > >>>> blood > >>>>>> sugar > >>>>>>>>> levels. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > >>>>>> Medicine Times > >>>>>>>> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > >>>>>>>> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> and adjust > >>>>>>>> accordingly. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication > >>>> outside > >>>>>> the group > >>>>>>>> requires prior permission from the author. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Please consider the environment and only print this message > >>>> if > >>>>>> absolutely > >>>>>>>> necessary. > >>>>>>>> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 I will continue to look for that paper of his but until I find it, please consider that we have a dilemna over ID patterns as well. Are you only referring to those patterns in Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion or do you include those mentioned in Japanese or Korean medical lit as well? Our verbage should make this point clear. I hope you would agree. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >RE: Re: pregnancy tx's >Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:21:27 -0000 > >If you're talking about Ted Kaptchuk's views on the placebo effect in TCM >not being included in the RCT model, I totally disagree. The placebo effect >is in everything and I believe is not as powerful in TCM as people make >out. >I believe it's being used as a cop-out to TCM being studied within an RCT >model. Get the diagnosis and treatment right and we'll get some good >results. And we'll only get that if we can use a pattern analysis in the >inclusion/exclusion criteria. > >Warm regards, > >Attilio D'Alberto >Doctor of (Beijing, China) >B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. >Editor > Times >+44 (0) 208 367 8378 >enquiries > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike >Bowser >21 March 2006 17:54 >Chinese Medicine >RE: Re: pregnancy tx's > > > >It is good science to be critical, that is what makes a good scientist. If >a study model does not fit the mold then find one that does work. I will >try to find Ted Kaptchuk's paper on this and why there is much concern with >trying to apply it what we do. It is also important to separate research >from real life practice. It sometimes sounds like we want to work in a >bubble with very limited variables, this is not possible or probable. On >the other hand, it is good to have info and know what and how to read >studies. > >Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto > >Chinese Medicine > ><Chinese Medicine > > >RE: Re: pregnancy tx's > >Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:40:22 -0000 > > > >The more people scrutinising RCTs, especially those not bias to WM, the > >more > >poor WM research will be undermined. We should all learn to read an RCT >and > >critique them. > > > >There is also a real lack of TCM practitioners engaged in research into > >TCM. > >Most of it is carried out by MDs with little or no knowledge of TCM, >hence > >a > >lot of the research done is flawed and useless. > > > >Warm regards, > > > >Attilio D'Alberto > >Doctor of (Beijing, China) > >B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. > >Editor > > Times > >+44 (0) 208 367 8378 > >enquiries > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > >Chinese Medicine > >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike > >Bowser > >21 March 2006 00:31 > >Chinese Medicine > >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > >So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical >studies > >or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or change results? > >We > > > >seem to uphold these are gospel. This trend is far more common then one > >realizes as there is a lot of big pharma money depending upon the >results. > >One does not have to travel far to see inappropriate conclusions or > >misinterpretations of data, it seems to be that the wilder the conclusion > >the more it is believed. It all comes back to ethics and integrity. > > > >Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > > > > > " " <alonmarcus > > >Chinese Medicine > > ><Chinese Medicine > > > >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > > >Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:47:03 -0800 > > > > > >I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > > >even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very > > >bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, > > >and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > > >poorly or just erroneously. > > > >>>>> > > >How true > > > > > > > > > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > > > > > > - > > > leabun1 > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:21 PM > > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > > > Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still think > > > you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be > > > possible that there were other factors of your treatment > > > (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your patients > > > high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus the > > > candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or type > > > 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you never > > > know, you may be right. > > > Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all pregnant > > > women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood > > > sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to > > > candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth when > > > pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are > > > underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does > > > spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however indicate > > > that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may have a > > > higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite. > > > > > > What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not necessarily > > > directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it > > > personally. > > > I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > > > even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very > > > bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, > > > and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > > > poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in the > > > vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im not > > > going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there have > > > been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over time) > > > Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was used > > > in the first place. One study that was never intended by the > > > researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as > > > evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the original > > > evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth) and > > > if you actually manage to track down the original information, it > > > generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed to it > > > in the first place. > > > > > > Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese medicine > > > could use a little more training in western scientific method, > > > because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their > > > treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results in a > > > more analytical way. > > > Of course this works the other way too, and there are many studies > > > that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being > > > researched because the methodology, from a > > > standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was good. > > > So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner need > > > this training and need to be doing these studies themselves. > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > > stephenmacallan wrote: > > > > > > > > Hiya > > > > > > > > > > Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root of > > > all > > > > > evil " people? > > > > > > > > No, I`m not rabid. > > > > > > > > Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out. > > > > > Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal bowel > > > > > flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most definitely > > > part > > > > > of the normal flora of the vagina. > > > > > > > > I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted - its a > > > balance > > > > issue, not an infection issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin > > > > > resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar > > > levels. > > > > > That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant women > > > are > > > > > more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with > > > changes > > > > > to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A > > > slightly > > > > > higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy > > > progresses, > > > > > or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often combined > > > with > > > > > other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE > > > pregnancy > > > > > related diabetes is the " gestational " bit. > > > > > > > > Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy > > > changes simply > > > > make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy caused > > > caused a > > > > diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would get > > > it, but not > > > > all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get diabetees > > > when > > > > pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the pregnancy > > > which were > > > > sub-clinical before pregnancy. > > > > > > > > > Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora of > > > the > > > > > genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it is > > > > > often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most > > > certainly > > > > > can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different > > > strains, > > > > > and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly good > > > at > > > > > overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " or > > > > > hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner > > > leading > > > > > to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors such > > > as > > > > > overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, immunosuppression, > > > > > antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it worse.) > > > This > > > > > sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men it > > > is > > > > > not so overt and can indeed be subclinical. > > > > > If you have any concrete information to back up why you believe > > > that > > > > > overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, please > > > share > > > > > it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such a > > > > > complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-) > > > > > > > > Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for whom > > > clearing (re- > > > > balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the `diabetes`. > > > There`s been > > > > a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve diabetes, > > > other factors > > > > are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal > > > poisoning, > > > > parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe 20 > > > cases of > > > > diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the others > > > improved > > > > somewhat anyway. > > > > > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Lea. > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > > > > stephenmacallan@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - thrush > > > is a > > > > > symptom of > > > > > > candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of > > > > > candida > > > > > > overgrowth in bowel also.. > > > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth > > > testing > > > > > this lady's > > > > > > > blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated > > > > > diabetes. If her > > > > > > > sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the > > > thrush > > > > > until her > > > > > > > glucose level is reduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > Susie Parkinson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " leabun1 " <leabun1@> > > > > > > > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think its the pregnancy hormones that > > > > > > > > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher > > > blood > > > > > sugar > > > > > > > > levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > > > > > Medicine Times > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > > > > > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and adjust > > > > > > > accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication > > > outside > > > > > the group > > > > > > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message > > > if > > > > > absolutely > > > > > > > necessary. > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 I don't see how you could include all the different schools of Chinese medicine let along all the types of Asian medicine. I'll let someone else sort them out. Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. Editor Times +44 (0) 208 367 8378 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser 21 March 2006 22:10 Chinese Medicine RE: Re: pregnancy tx's I will continue to look for that paper of his but until I find it, please consider that we have a dilemna over ID patterns as well. Are you only referring to those patterns in Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion or do you include those mentioned in Japanese or Korean medical lit as well? Our verbage should make this point clear. I hope you would agree. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >RE: Re: pregnancy tx's >Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:21:27 -0000 > >If you're talking about Ted Kaptchuk's views on the placebo effect in TCM >not being included in the RCT model, I totally disagree. The placebo effect >is in everything and I believe is not as powerful in TCM as people make >out. >I believe it's being used as a cop-out to TCM being studied within an RCT >model. Get the diagnosis and treatment right and we'll get some good >results. And we'll only get that if we can use a pattern analysis in the >inclusion/exclusion criteria. > >Warm regards, > >Attilio D'Alberto >Doctor of (Beijing, China) >B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. >Editor > Times >+44 (0) 208 367 8378 >enquiries > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike >Bowser >21 March 2006 17:54 >Chinese Medicine >RE: Re: pregnancy tx's > > > >It is good science to be critical, that is what makes a good scientist. If >a study model does not fit the mold then find one that does work. I will >try to find Ted Kaptchuk's paper on this and why there is much concern with >trying to apply it what we do. It is also important to separate research >from real life practice. It sometimes sounds like we want to work in a >bubble with very limited variables, this is not possible or probable. On >the other hand, it is good to have info and know what and how to read >studies. > >Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto > >Chinese Medicine > ><Chinese Medicine > > >RE: Re: pregnancy tx's > >Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:40:22 -0000 > > > >The more people scrutinising RCTs, especially those not bias to WM, the > >more > >poor WM research will be undermined. We should all learn to read an RCT >and > >critique them. > > > >There is also a real lack of TCM practitioners engaged in research into > >TCM. > >Most of it is carried out by MDs with little or no knowledge of TCM, >hence > >a > >lot of the research done is flawed and useless. > > > >Warm regards, > > > >Attilio D'Alberto > >Doctor of (Beijing, China) > >B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. > >Editor > > Times > >+44 (0) 208 367 8378 > >enquiries > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > >Chinese Medicine > >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike > >Bowser > >21 March 2006 00:31 > >Chinese Medicine > >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > >So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical >studies > >or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or change results? > >We > > > >seem to uphold these are gospel. This trend is far more common then one > >realizes as there is a lot of big pharma money depending upon the >results. > >One does not have to travel far to see inappropriate conclusions or > >misinterpretations of data, it seems to be that the wilder the conclusion > >the more it is believed. It all comes back to ethics and integrity. > > > >Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > > > > > " " <alonmarcus > > >Chinese Medicine > > ><Chinese Medicine > > > >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > > >Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:47:03 -0800 > > > > > >I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > > >even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very > > >bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, > > >and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > > >poorly or just erroneously. > > > >>>>> > > >How true > > > > > > > > > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > > > > > > - > > > leabun1 > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:21 PM > > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > > > Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still think > > > you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be > > > possible that there were other factors of your treatment > > > (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your patients > > > high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus the > > > candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or type > > > 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you never > > > know, you may be right. > > > Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all pregnant > > > women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood > > > sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to > > > candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth when > > > pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are > > > underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does > > > spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however indicate > > > that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may have a > > > higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite. > > > > > > What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not necessarily > > > directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it > > > personally. > > > I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > > > even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very > > > bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, > > > and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > > > poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in the > > > vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im not > > > going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there have > > > been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over time) > > > Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was used > > > in the first place. One study that was never intended by the > > > researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as > > > evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the original > > > evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth) and > > > if you actually manage to track down the original information, it > > > generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed to it > > > in the first place. > > > > > > Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese medicine > > > could use a little more training in western scientific method, > > > because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their > > > treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results in a > > > more analytical way. > > > Of course this works the other way too, and there are many studies > > > that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being > > > researched because the methodology, from a > > > standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was good. > > > So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner need > > > this training and need to be doing these studies themselves. > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > > stephenmacallan wrote: > > > > > > > > Hiya > > > > > > > > > > Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root of > > > all > > > > > evil " people? > > > > > > > > No, I`m not rabid. > > > > > > > > Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out. > > > > > Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal bowel > > > > > flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most definitely > > > part > > > > > of the normal flora of the vagina. > > > > > > > > I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted - its a > > > balance > > > > issue, not an infection issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin > > > > > resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar > > > levels. > > > > > That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant women > > > are > > > > > more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with > > > changes > > > > > to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A > > > slightly > > > > > higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy > > > progresses, > > > > > or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often combined > > > with > > > > > other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE > > > pregnancy > > > > > related diabetes is the " gestational " bit. > > > > > > > > Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy > > > changes simply > > > > make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy caused > > > caused a > > > > diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would get > > > it, but not > > > > all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get diabetees > > > when > > > > pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the pregnancy > > > which were > > > > sub-clinical before pregnancy. > > > > > > > > > Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora of > > > the > > > > > genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it is > > > > > often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most > > > certainly > > > > > can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different > > > strains, > > > > > and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly good > > > at > > > > > overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " or > > > > > hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner > > > leading > > > > > to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors such > > > as > > > > > overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, immunosuppression, > > > > > antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it worse.) > > > This > > > > > sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men it > > > is > > > > > not so overt and can indeed be subclinical. > > > > > If you have any concrete information to back up why you believe > > > that > > > > > overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, please > > > share > > > > > it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such a > > > > > complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-) > > > > > > > > Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for whom > > > clearing (re- > > > > balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the `diabetes`. > > > There`s been > > > > a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve diabetes, > > > other factors > > > > are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal > > > poisoning, > > > > parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe 20 > > > cases of > > > > diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the others > > > improved > > > > somewhat anyway. > > > > > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Lea. > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > > > > stephenmacallan@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - thrush > > > is a > > > > > symptom of > > > > > > candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of > > > > > candida > > > > > > overgrowth in bowel also.. > > > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth > > > testing > > > > > this lady's > > > > > > > blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated > > > > > diabetes. If her > > > > > > > sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the > > > thrush > > > > > until her > > > > > > > glucose level is reduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > Susie Parkinson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " leabun1 " <leabun1@> > > > > > > > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think its the pregnancy hormones that > > > > > > > > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher > > > blood > > > > > sugar > > > > > > > > levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese > > > > > Medicine Times > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > > > > > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and adjust > > > > > > > accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication > > > outside > > > > > the group > > > > > > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message > > > if > > > > > absolutely > > > > > > > necessary. > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2006 I do not, which is why I am asking to see how we define ourselves on this group. The frequent usage of " TCM " reminds me think of a modern medical variant based upon some ancient Chinese viewpoints. This also has a negative association with Communism, which is why I have asked for clarity. As the common usage of TCM, from what I am aware of, seems to imply one system of medicine that is Chinese I wanted to ask for clarity and acceptance of others. That was all. I think that for our own understanding our profession should know the difference, accuracy is important. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >RE: Re: pregnancy tx's >Tue, 21 Mar 2006 22:28:04 -0000 > >I don't see how you could include all the different schools of Chinese >medicine let along all the types of Asian medicine. I'll let someone else >sort them out. > >Warm regards, > >Attilio D'Alberto >Doctor of (Beijing, China) >B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. >Editor > Times >+44 (0) 208 367 8378 >enquiries > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike >Bowser >21 March 2006 22:10 >Chinese Medicine >RE: Re: pregnancy tx's > > > >I will continue to look for that paper of his but until I find it, please >consider that we have a dilemna over ID patterns as well. Are you only >referring to those patterns in Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion or do >you > >include those mentioned in Japanese or Korean medical lit as well? Our >verbage should make this point clear. I hope you would agree. > >Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto > >Chinese Medicine > ><Chinese Medicine > > >RE: Re: pregnancy tx's > >Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:21:27 -0000 > > > >If you're talking about Ted Kaptchuk's views on the placebo effect in TCM > >not being included in the RCT model, I totally disagree. The placebo >effect > >is in everything and I believe is not as powerful in TCM as people make > >out. > >I believe it's being used as a cop-out to TCM being studied within an RCT > >model. Get the diagnosis and treatment right and we'll get some good > >results. And we'll only get that if we can use a pattern analysis in the > >inclusion/exclusion criteria. > > > >Warm regards, > > > >Attilio D'Alberto > >Doctor of (Beijing, China) > >B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. > >Editor > > Times > >+44 (0) 208 367 8378 > >enquiries > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > >Chinese Medicine > >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike > >Bowser > >21 March 2006 17:54 > >Chinese Medicine > >RE: Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > >It is good science to be critical, that is what makes a good scientist. >If > >a study model does not fit the mold then find one that does work. I will > >try to find Ted Kaptchuk's paper on this and why there is much concern >with > >trying to apply it what we do. It is also important to separate research > >from real life practice. It sometimes sounds like we want to work in a > >bubble with very limited variables, this is not possible or probable. On > >the other hand, it is good to have info and know what and how to read > >studies. > > > >Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto > > >Chinese Medicine > > ><Chinese Medicine > > > >RE: Re: pregnancy tx's > > >Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:40:22 -0000 > > > > > >The more people scrutinising RCTs, especially those not bias to WM, the > > >more > > >poor WM research will be undermined. We should all learn to read an RCT > >and > > >critique them. > > > > > >There is also a real lack of TCM practitioners engaged in research into > > >TCM. > > >Most of it is carried out by MDs with little or no knowledge of TCM, > >hence > > >a > > >lot of the research done is flawed and useless. > > > > > >Warm regards, > > > > > >Attilio D'Alberto > > >Doctor of (Beijing, China) > > >B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. > > >Editor > > > Times > > >+44 (0) 208 367 8378 > > >enquiries > > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > >Chinese Medicine > > >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike > > >Bowser > > >21 March 2006 00:31 > > >Chinese Medicine > > >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > > > > > >So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical > >studies > > >or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or change >results? > > >We > > > > > >seem to uphold these are gospel. This trend is far more common then >one > > >realizes as there is a lot of big pharma money depending upon the > >results. > > >One does not have to travel far to see inappropriate conclusions or > > >misinterpretations of data, it seems to be that the wilder the >conclusion > > >the more it is believed. It all comes back to ethics and integrity. > > > > > >Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " " <alonmarcus > > > >Chinese Medicine > > > ><Chinese Medicine > > > > >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > > > >Sun, 19 Mar 2006 16:47:03 -0800 > > > > > > > >I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > > > >even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of very > > > >bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky ways, > > > >and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > > > >poorly or just erroneously. > > > > >>>>> > > > >How true > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > leabun1 > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:21 PM > > > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi there, thanks for your thoughtfull reply, however I still think > > > > you may be putting the cart before the horse a bit. It may be > > > > possible that there were other factors of your treatment > > > > (successfull, congratulations) that directly affected your >patients > > > > high blood sugar levels by effecting their metabolism and thus the > > > > candida then cleared up. I assume you are talking about NIDM or >type > > > > 2? I will suspend my disbelief somewhat just in case, hey, you >never > > > > know, you may be right. > > > > Also, I did not say, and never intended to say, that all pregnant > > > > women who get thrush have diabetes, the slight increase in blood > > > > sugar is sub clinical generally but will still predispose to > > > > candida, that is why many, many women get candida overgrowth when > > > > pregnant, especially in the first trimester. And yes, there are > > > > underlying factors to gestational diabetes, but it does > > > > spontaneously resolve once the baby is born, it may however >indicate > > > > that later in life, if your life style is conducive, you may have >a > > > > higher risk of type 2 diabetes developing, but its not definite. > > > > > > > > What Im going to say next is a bit of a tengent, and not >necessarily > > > > directed at you personally, Stephen, so please dont take it > > > > personally. > > > > I have made the observation in the field of natural therapies and > > > > even chinese medicine for some time now, that there is alot of >very > > > > bad science out there. People often interpret results in wacky >ways, > > > > and critical analysis of studies and statisitics is often done > > > > poorly or just erroneously. This can be seen in particular in the > > > > vaccination debate, although is by no means exclusive to it. (Im >not > > > > going to get mired in this right now, I will agree that there have > > > > been adverse reactions to vaccines for whatever reasons over time) > > > > Where studies are misinterpreted or a very poor methodology was >used > > > > in the first place. One study that was never intended by the > > > > researchers to be used as concrete proof gets quoted and used as > > > > evidence ad infinitum until people dont even know where the >original > > > > evidence came from, (but everybody accepts it as gospel truth) and > > > > if you actually manage to track down the original information, it > > > > generally bears almost no resemblance to what was attributed to it > > > > in the first place. > > > > > > > > Im thinking that here is one area where students of chinese >medicine > > > > could use a little more training in western scientific method, > > > > because this would in no way impinge upon the efficacy of their > > > > treatments, it would just help them interpret empirical results in >a > > > > more analytical way. > > > > Of course this works the other way too, and there are many studies > > > > that had a poor outcome for the chinese medicine therapy being > > > > researched because the methodology, from a > > > > standpoint, was flawed, even though the western med. side was >good. > > > > So I guess this is another reason why Chinese Med. practitioner >need > > > > this training and need to be doing these studies themselves. > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > > > stephenmacallan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hiya > > > > > > > > > > > > Can I ask you if you are one of these " candida is the root of > > > > all > > > > > > evil " people? > > > > > > > > > > No, I`m not rabid. > > > > > > > > > > Thats OK, but I think I need to point some things out. > > > > > > Firstly, candida is not necessarily only part of a normal >bowel > > > > > > flora, in men perhaps, but in women, candida is most >definitely > > > > part > > > > > > of the normal flora of the vagina. > > > > > > > > > > I know, problems arise when the other bugs become depleted - its >a > > > > balance > > > > > issue, not an infection issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Secondly, higher levels of hormones DO lead to some insulin > > > > > > resistance and subsequently can lead to higher blood sugar > > > > levels. > > > > > > That is why women on the contraceptive pill and pregnant women > > > > are > > > > > > more prone to candida overgrowth. Also this is coupled with > > > > changes > > > > > > to mucous consistancy and vaginal pH which contributes. A > > > > slightly > > > > > > higher blood sugar level may normalize as the pregnancy > > > > progresses, > > > > > > or the woman may develop gestational diabetes (often combined > > > > with > > > > > > other factors). A hint to you that candida does NOT CAUSE > > > > pregnancy > > > > > > related diabetes is the " gestational " bit. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe the candida imbalance is already there and the pregnancy > > > > changes simply > > > > > make the candida imbalance worse. After all if pregnancy caused > > > > caused a > > > > > diabetes like condition, then all pregnant women women would get > > > > it, but not > > > > > all do. Common sense says then, that those women who get >diabetees > > > > when > > > > > pregnant have one or more other factors underneath the pregnancy > > > > which were > > > > > sub-clinical before pregnancy. > > > > > > > > > > > Thirdly, because candida is part of the normal mucosal flora >of > > > > the > > > > > > genitourinary tract in both men and, particlularly women, it >is > > > > > > often overlooked as an STD, which in some cases it most > > > > certainly > > > > > > can be. As candida, like many microorganisms, has different > > > > strains, > > > > > > and sometimes people develop a strain that is particularly >good > > > > at > > > > > > overgrowth due to an increased ability or tendency to " bud " or > > > > > > hyphenate. Which can then be passed on to a sexual partner > > > > leading > > > > > > to an overgrowth infection in the ABSENCE of other factors >such > > > > as > > > > > > overgrowth in the gastro intestinal tract, immunosuppression, > > > > > > antibiotics or hormone use. (Although these can make it >worse.) > > > > This > > > > > > sexual transmission is often overlooked, too, because in men >it > > > > is > > > > > > not so overt and can indeed be subclinical. > > > > > > If you have any concrete information to back up why you >believe > > > > that > > > > > > overgrowth of candida in the bowel can cause diabetes, please > > > > share > > > > > > it, I would be interested to learn. It would be nice if such a > > > > > > complicated pathology had such a simple aetiology. :-) > > > > > > > > > > Well, I`ve treated maybe half a dozen `diabetes` cases for whom > > > > clearing (re- > > > > > balancing is a better word)the candida, resolved the `diabetes`. > > > > There`s been > > > > > a few, also, for whom clearing candida did not resolve diabetes, > > > > other factors > > > > > are involved - chromium deficiency, mercury/other heavy metal > > > > poisoning, > > > > > parasites, vaccinosis, virus. All told I`ve had a go at mebbe 20 > > > > cases of > > > > > diabetes and helped to resolve say a dozen, and most of the >others > > > > improved > > > > > somewhat anyway. > > > > > > > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Lea. > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > > > > > stephenmacallan@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > thrush is not a symptom of untreated diabetes - >thrush > > > > is a > > > > > > symptom of > > > > > > > candida overgrowth in bowel and diabetes MAY be a symptom of > > > > > > candida > > > > > > > overgrowth in bowel also.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lea you have a good point here. Its definitely worth > > > > testing > > > > > > this lady's > > > > > > > > blood glucose because thrush can be a symptom of untreated > > > > > > diabetes. If her > > > > > > > > sugar level is high, whatever you do will not cure the > > > > thrush > > > > > > until her > > > > > > > > glucose level is reduced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Susie Parkinson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " leabun1 " <leabun1@> > > > > > > > > > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think its the pregnancy hormones that > > > > > > > > > leads to a bit of relative insulin resistance and higher > > > > blood > > > > > > sugar > > > > > > > > > levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at >Chinese > > > > > > Medicine Times > > > > > > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > > > > > > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and adjust > > > > > > > > accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication > > > > outside > > > > > > the group > > > > > > > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this >message > > > > if > > > > > > absolutely > > > > > > > > necessary. > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 22, 2006 No one has come up >with the solution of including a TCM pattern analysis into the RCT model. >>>>>>>>> Attilio Look the the irritable bowl study. Oakland, CA 94609 - mike Bowser Chinese Medicine Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:00 AM RE: Re: pregnancy tx's It sounds like you need to conduct a study with two filters that allow for population entry. One is the modern chief complaint or illness and the second is to have only those with a specific TCM pattern. Should not be that hard as long as one chooses a broad problem like low back pain. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >RE: Re: pregnancy tx's >Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:31:53 -0000 > >The inclusion of a pattern analysis into RCTs is something I've been >thinking and talking about for sometime. It is the crux of the problem TCM >faces in getting evaluated as evidence based research. No one has come up >with the solution of including a TCM pattern analysis into the RCT model. >The problem is that there are many different schools of thought within TCM, >many different diagnosis to the same problem and these cannot be expressed >within a strict RCT framework. I was thinking about using the statistically >significant model on the pattern analysis as well after asking a committee >of 10 leading pattern analysis experts. What do others think to this? > >Warm regards, > >Attilio D'Alberto >Doctor of (Beijing, China) >B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. >Editor > Times >+44 (0) 208 367 8378 >enquiries > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Alon >Marcus DOM >21 March 2006 00:38 >Chinese Medicine >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > > > >If only specific studies for >Chinese herbal medicines matched to biomedical diseases can be >included as evidence (without pattern differentiation), > >>>> >Why would you not have patter dx? >you can still have an objective evaluation even when doing pattern dx > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > > Chinese Medicine > Monday, March 20, 2006 4:34 PM > Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > > > The issue isn't so much whether practice should be evidence-based, > but what are the criteria for evidence? If only specific studies for > Chinese herbal medicines matched to biomedical diseases can be > included as evidence (without pattern differentiation), it will > pretty much eliminate any evidence for its efficacy. Two thousand > years of case histories would have to be discarded, and the pattern- > based studies done in mainland China in modern times as well. This > type of 'evidence' will lead to the complete exclusion of Chinese > medicine from modern health care. > > If the concept of 'evidence' can include the case histories, pattern- > based studies of historical record as well as modern times, than > these criteria can be used. > > " Evidence-based " medicine is an often culture-bound phenomenon as > presently expressed, that eliminates most of the useful criteria > already existing within the body of Chinese medicine. > > > On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:22 PM, suecochrane36 wrote: > > > I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/ at > > University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism > > from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as > > compulsory units. There is much discussion of whether we are taking > > TCM off-track by such an emphasis on western scientific method. Some > > of our first graduating students argue that they can now read > > research reports critically and understand the flaws and biases > > within the available research. Surely a skill we should value. But > > I am about to send an email to a student who is considering > > withdrawing because of this emphasis within the course! Just as > > well TCM is a diverse church! > > Sue > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 22, 2006 Hello all, I do not think that this debate is limited to chinese medicine. Have a look at environmental science sometime! Which is all the more reason for students of chinese medicine to recieve good training in analysis of data of this type. It is also important for chinese medicine practitioners to be able to critically analyze western medicine studies as well, as almost all your patients will be recieving some type of western medicine treatment in their lives as well. This was exemplified by somebody previously on this forum who was unable to properly analyze the efficacy of cervical pap smears and thought that a lower percentage meant that it was not useful, and I think somebody replied well in explaining how this is just incorporated into the protocol for frequency of use, which makes the screening quite successfull. At RMIT university there have been a few studies done recently in the chinese med. dept. that I am pretty sure incorporated CM differentiation into the selection criteria, you could always go to www.rmit.edu.au and have a look for them, a hayfever study was published in many journals, and there is a migraine trial underway at the moment. (Just look for the name Xue, hes the head of the unit, so his names on everything I think.) I believe one thing they did in designing these trials was to go to the head of the statistics dept. of the university, and ask them if they wanted to have their name on a paper. I believe that their statistics are beyond reproach, for that reason. But RMIT is a large university with a large biomedical science faculty and so has alot of resources to draw on, and postgrad research positions for people to conduct these studies. On another note, I believe it was Mike Bowser who posted the question about the term TCM? I actually use it in the opposite sense and try never to use the term " traditional " for post 1940's CM. I refer to what I do as Chinese medicine, as it is anything but traditional, and this is a good thing. I do not practice so called " medical acupuncture " or " medical herbalism " , I practice herbal medicine and acupuncture in the way it has always been practiced, based on chinese med. differentiation and the use of classical formulae. And I prefer raw herbs by decoction, if I can get my patients to take them, but I also make tinctures and stock patents. Only I incorporate in new knowledge that has been acquired with modern science and the dissemination of knowlege from other traditions. If anyone here uses Gan Mao Ling, then you should know that some of the herbs in that have only been in use in CM for less than 100 years. I also find the ability to get updates and alerts on the presence of aristolochic acid in herbs and patents, to be invaluable. Also, China now grows more ayurvedic herbs than India and exports them back to them. I also dont use violent purgatives in disease treatment, and will happily refer a patient back to a western doctor so as to have access to western diagnostics, and I think that given a choice I would rather have western med for treatment for something like glaucoma. (When we did opthalmology at Uni, they dug up this old guy who had been an opthalmologist in China to come and talk to us, who said that they would have to palpate their own eye and then feel the patients eye to compare pressure... " if hard, like a pebble, then glaucoma. " Given a choice, I'd rather go to an optometrist and have a carefully calibrated bubble of air bounced off my eye.) Another example is that TB had a very poor traditional prognosis as it was differentiated as being a deficiency syndrome, and yet with the advent of modern microbiology, it became known that TB was actually a pathogen, which is technically an excess type of disease, which needed to be treated with different herbs to combat the underlying cause. Now we know that there are herbs that prove to be at least somewhat effective against TB and these are incorporated into treatment. A great example is the isolation of Qinghaosu, or artemisinin from Artemisia Annua, Qing Hao, for use as a malarial treatment. Which kills more people than HIV/AIDS). (My mother met one of the chinese researchers who isolated this, in Nanning in the early eighties, I think she has a copy of his original paper, but shes not a CM doctor, shes a marine biologist, so I dont know what she did with it, but I digress.) This is a wonderfull treatment for people already infected with the ovale or vivax strains (Im not sure if its used for falciparum) and has saved many lives. Its ease of use in an isolated form, makes it more readily available to poor areas where malaria is endemic, and its just not practical to send a team of herbalists with a boatload of raw herbs to do it the traditional way. Unfortunately it was originally intended that this drug would be offered in combination with other antimalarials to prevent or reduce resistance, but the next thing you know, a friend told me he bought it over the counter in Papua New Guinea. (Worked a treat, too.) So we might yet screw this one up. Now current research is showing that Qing Hao is also useful for certain types of cancer, and cancer is another good example of why we need to pay attention to Western science. In a statement that I believe is accredited to Hippocrates, he said that if you were lucky enough to find a patient with cancer, they were almost sure to die of something else, first. These days, we are seeing the advent of many types of cancer that can be very aggresive. This is a modern disease and older traditional medicines, whilst of great value, dont always keep up and may need to be modifed to suit. (Im not saying that western medicine is on top of this either, we're all floundering around in the dark to a certain extent.) Let necessity be the mother of invention, I say. When wen bing, warm disease theory was first expounded, it was in response to pestilential epidemics that required new thinking and new treatment, but it didnt devalue the thinking behind the shang han lun. I wish I could spend more time on this post and polish it up a bit, but I have to go. More later. Regards, Lea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 22, 2006 mike Bowser wrote: > Pete, > The one that I find incredible is a conclusion without any merit or that was > not even what was studied. Like the one I read awhile ago that studied > acupuncture for something but then concluded that LAc should not be in > practice. > Hi Mike! The quackwatch guy, Dr. Stephen Barrett, while admittedly irritating, has posted something interesting about TCM research. If we could design and produce trials that satisfied the objections, they would be good trials. But it is not strictly necessary to do this, only to identify where it has or has not been done. A larger question, how much WESTERN research satisfies the criteria? Regards, Pete http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html Begin quote: The quality of TCM research in China has been extremely poor. A recent analysis of 2,938 reports of clinical trials reported in Chinese medical journals concluded that that no conclusions could be drawn from the vast majority of them. The researchers stated: In most of the trials, disease was defined and diagnosed according to conventional medicine; trial outcomes were assessed with objective or subjective (or both) methods of conventional medicine, often complemented by traditional Chinese methods. Over 90% of the trials in non-specialist journals evaluated herbal treatments that were mostly proprietary Chinese medicines. . . . Although methodological quality has been improving over the years, many problems remain. The method of randomisation was often inappropriately described. Blinding was used in only 15% of trials. Only a few studies had sample sizes of 300 subjects or more. Many trials used as a control another Chinese medicine treatment whose effectiveness had often not been evaluated by randomised controlled trials. Most trials focused on short term or intermediate rather than long term outcomes. Most trials did not report data on compliance and completeness of follow up. Effectiveness was rarely quantitatively expressed and reported. Intention to treat analysis was never mentioned. Over half did not report data on baseline characteristics or on side effects. Many trials were published as short reports. Most trials claimed that the tested treatments were effective, indicating that publication bias may be common; a funnel plot of the 49 trials of acupuncture in the treatment of stroke confirmed selective publication of positive trials in the area, suggesting that acupuncture may not be more effective than the control treatments. [9] End quote. > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > >>petetheisen <petetheisen >>Chinese Medicine >>Chinese Medicine >>Re: Re: pregnancy tx's >>Tue, 21 Mar 2006 05:49:59 -0500 >> >>mike Bowser wrote: >> >>>So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical >>>studies or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or >>>change results? >> >>Hi Mike! >> >>Oh, yes. It appears to be a trend to just publish the conclusion, not >>the method or (heaven forbid) the data. Maybe I just don't know where to >>find the good stuff? >> >>Regards, >> >>Pete > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > and adjust accordingly. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 22, 2006 I also dont use violent purgatives in disease treatment >>>>> Lea why not? these can sometimes be the only effective approach Oakland, CA 94609 - leabun1 Chinese Medicine Tuesday, March 21, 2006 4:39 PM Re: pregnancy tx's Hello all, I do not think that this debate is limited to chinese medicine. Have a look at environmental science sometime! Which is all the more reason for students of chinese medicine to recieve good training in analysis of data of this type. It is also important for chinese medicine practitioners to be able to critically analyze western medicine studies as well, as almost all your patients will be recieving some type of western medicine treatment in their lives as well. This was exemplified by somebody previously on this forum who was unable to properly analyze the efficacy of cervical pap smears and thought that a lower percentage meant that it was not useful, and I think somebody replied well in explaining how this is just incorporated into the protocol for frequency of use, which makes the screening quite successfull. At RMIT university there have been a few studies done recently in the chinese med. dept. that I am pretty sure incorporated CM differentiation into the selection criteria, you could always go to www.rmit.edu.au and have a look for them, a hayfever study was published in many journals, and there is a migraine trial underway at the moment. (Just look for the name Xue, hes the head of the unit, so his names on everything I think.) I believe one thing they did in designing these trials was to go to the head of the statistics dept. of the university, and ask them if they wanted to have their name on a paper. I believe that their statistics are beyond reproach, for that reason. But RMIT is a large university with a large biomedical science faculty and so has alot of resources to draw on, and postgrad research positions for people to conduct these studies. On another note, I believe it was Mike Bowser who posted the question about the term TCM? I actually use it in the opposite sense and try never to use the term " traditional " for post 1940's CM. I refer to what I do as Chinese medicine, as it is anything but traditional, and this is a good thing. I do not practice so called " medical acupuncture " or " medical herbalism " , I practice herbal medicine and acupuncture in the way it has always been practiced, based on chinese med. differentiation and the use of classical formulae. And I prefer raw herbs by decoction, if I can get my patients to take them, but I also make tinctures and stock patents. Only I incorporate in new knowledge that has been acquired with modern science and the dissemination of knowlege from other traditions. If anyone here uses Gan Mao Ling, then you should know that some of the herbs in that have only been in use in CM for less than 100 years. I also find the ability to get updates and alerts on the presence of aristolochic acid in herbs and patents, to be invaluable. Also, China now grows more ayurvedic herbs than India and exports them back to them. I also dont use violent purgatives in disease treatment, and will happily refer a patient back to a western doctor so as to have access to western diagnostics, and I think that given a choice I would rather have western med for treatment for something like glaucoma. (When we did opthalmology at Uni, they dug up this old guy who had been an opthalmologist in China to come and talk to us, who said that they would have to palpate their own eye and then feel the patients eye to compare pressure... " if hard, like a pebble, then glaucoma. " Given a choice, I'd rather go to an optometrist and have a carefully calibrated bubble of air bounced off my eye.) Another example is that TB had a very poor traditional prognosis as it was differentiated as being a deficiency syndrome, and yet with the advent of modern microbiology, it became known that TB was actually a pathogen, which is technically an excess type of disease, which needed to be treated with different herbs to combat the underlying cause. Now we know that there are herbs that prove to be at least somewhat effective against TB and these are incorporated into treatment. A great example is the isolation of Qinghaosu, or artemisinin from Artemisia Annua, Qing Hao, for use as a malarial treatment. Which kills more people than HIV/AIDS). (My mother met one of the chinese researchers who isolated this, in Nanning in the early eighties, I think she has a copy of his original paper, but shes not a CM doctor, shes a marine biologist, so I dont know what she did with it, but I digress.) This is a wonderfull treatment for people already infected with the ovale or vivax strains (Im not sure if its used for falciparum) and has saved many lives. Its ease of use in an isolated form, makes it more readily available to poor areas where malaria is endemic, and its just not practical to send a team of herbalists with a boatload of raw herbs to do it the traditional way. Unfortunately it was originally intended that this drug would be offered in combination with other antimalarials to prevent or reduce resistance, but the next thing you know, a friend told me he bought it over the counter in Papua New Guinea. (Worked a treat, too.) So we might yet screw this one up. Now current research is showing that Qing Hao is also useful for certain types of cancer, and cancer is another good example of why we need to pay attention to Western science. In a statement that I believe is accredited to Hippocrates, he said that if you were lucky enough to find a patient with cancer, they were almost sure to die of something else, first. These days, we are seeing the advent of many types of cancer that can be very aggresive. This is a modern disease and older traditional medicines, whilst of great value, dont always keep up and may need to be modifed to suit. (Im not saying that western medicine is on top of this either, we're all floundering around in the dark to a certain extent.) Let necessity be the mother of invention, I say. When wen bing, warm disease theory was first expounded, it was in response to pestilential epidemics that required new thinking and new treatment, but it didnt devalue the thinking behind the shang han lun. I wish I could spend more time on this post and polish it up a bit, but I have to go. More later. Regards, Lea. Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 22, 2006 Do you have any more info on that study Alon? Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. Editor Times +44 (0) 208 367 8378 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Alon Marcus DOM 22 March 2006 00:04 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: pregnancy tx's No one has come up >with the solution of including a TCM pattern analysis into the RCT model. >>>>>>>>> Attilio Look the the irritable bowl study. Oakland, CA 94609 - mike Bowser Chinese Medicine Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:00 AM RE: Re: pregnancy tx's It sounds like you need to conduct a study with two filters that allow for population entry. One is the modern chief complaint or illness and the second is to have only those with a specific TCM pattern. Should not be that hard as long as one chooses a broad problem like low back pain. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >RE: Re: pregnancy tx's >Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:31:53 -0000 > >The inclusion of a pattern analysis into RCTs is something I've been >thinking and talking about for sometime. It is the crux of the problem TCM >faces in getting evaluated as evidence based research. No one has come up >with the solution of including a TCM pattern analysis into the RCT model. >The problem is that there are many different schools of thought within TCM, >many different diagnosis to the same problem and these cannot be expressed >within a strict RCT framework. I was thinking about using the statistically >significant model on the pattern analysis as well after asking a committee >of 10 leading pattern analysis experts. What do others think to this? > >Warm regards, > >Attilio D'Alberto >Doctor of (Beijing, China) >B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. >Editor > Times >+44 (0) 208 367 8378 >enquiries > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Alon >Marcus DOM >21 March 2006 00:38 >Chinese Medicine >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > > > >If only specific studies for >Chinese herbal medicines matched to biomedical diseases can be >included as evidence (without pattern differentiation), > >>>> >Why would you not have patter dx? >you can still have an objective evaluation even when doing pattern dx > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > > Chinese Medicine > Monday, March 20, 2006 4:34 PM > Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > > > The issue isn't so much whether practice should be evidence-based, > but what are the criteria for evidence? If only specific studies for > Chinese herbal medicines matched to biomedical diseases can be > included as evidence (without pattern differentiation), it will > pretty much eliminate any evidence for its efficacy. Two thousand > years of case histories would have to be discarded, and the pattern- > based studies done in mainland China in modern times as well. This > type of 'evidence' will lead to the complete exclusion of Chinese > medicine from modern health care. > > If the concept of 'evidence' can include the case histories, pattern- > based studies of historical record as well as modern times, than > these criteria can be used. > > " Evidence-based " medicine is an often culture-bound phenomenon as > presently expressed, that eliminates most of the useful criteria > already existing within the body of Chinese medicine. > > > On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:22 PM, suecochrane36 wrote: > > > I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/ at > > University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism > > from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as > > compulsory units. There is much discussion of whether we are taking > > TCM off-track by such an emphasis on western scientific method. Some > > of our first graduating students argue that they can now read > > research reports critically and understand the flaws and biases > > within the available research. Surely a skill we should value. But > > I am about to send an email to a student who is considering > > withdrawing because of this emphasis within the course! Just as > > well TCM is a diverse church! > > Sue > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 22, 2006 Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > If you're talking about Ted Kaptchuk's views on the placebo effect in > TCM not being included in the RCT model, I totally disagree. The > placebo effect is in everything and I believe is not as powerful in > TCM as people make out. I believe it's being used as a cop-out to TCM > being studied within an RCT model. Get the diagnosis and treatment > right and we'll get some good results. And we'll only get that if we > can use a pattern analysis in the inclusion/exclusion criteria. Hi Attilio! Truth be told I have gotten dramatically favorable results from some rather sloppy differentiations. This was especially true during my internship where I barely knew what I was doing. This presents a difficulty in research, where a bad (or sham) treatment produces a good result and gives critics of TCM an opportunity to toss around such terms as " placebo effect " or " bedside manner " . I like to think of all TCM/acupuncture as good, and that practiced by careful and experienced practitioners as very good. Regards, Pete Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 22, 2006 We have not mentioned or dialogued about modern knowledge of herbal pharmacological studies that have isolated various substances and tested them for effect. Do we or should we not be including this info into our educational programs as well? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <alonmarcus >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's >Tue, 21 Mar 2006 19:28:36 -0800 > >I also dont use violent purgatives in disease treatment > >>>>> >Lea why not? these can sometimes be the only effective approach > > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > leabun1 > Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, March 21, 2006 4:39 PM > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > Hello all, > I do not think that this debate is limited to chinese medicine. Have > a look at environmental science sometime! Which is all the more > reason for students of chinese medicine to recieve good training in > analysis of data of this type. It is also important for chinese > medicine practitioners to be able to critically analyze western > medicine studies as well, as almost all your patients will be > recieving some type of western medicine treatment in their lives as > well. > This was exemplified by somebody previously on this forum who was > unable to properly analyze the efficacy of cervical pap smears and > thought that a lower percentage meant that it was not useful, and I > think somebody replied well in explaining how this is just > incorporated into the protocol for frequency of use, which makes the > screening quite successfull. > At RMIT university there have been a few studies done recently in > the chinese med. dept. that I am pretty sure incorporated CM > differentiation into the selection criteria, you could always go to > www.rmit.edu.au and have a look for them, a hayfever study was > published in many journals, and there is a migraine trial underway > at the moment. (Just look for the name Xue, hes the head of the > unit, so his names on everything I think.) I believe one thing they > did in designing these trials was to go to the head of the > statistics dept. of the university, and ask them if they wanted to > have their name on a paper. I believe that their statistics are > beyond reproach, for that reason. But RMIT is a large university > with a large biomedical science faculty and so has alot of resources > to draw on, and postgrad research positions for people to conduct > these studies. > On another note, I believe it was Mike Bowser who posted the > question about the term TCM? I actually use it in the opposite sense > and try never to use the term " traditional " for post 1940's CM. I > refer to what I do as Chinese medicine, as it is anything but > traditional, and this is a good thing. I do not practice so > called " medical acupuncture " or " medical herbalism " , I practice > herbal medicine and acupuncture in the way it has always been > practiced, based on chinese med. differentiation and the use of > classical formulae. And I prefer raw herbs by decoction, if I can > get my patients to take them, but I also make tinctures and stock > patents. Only I incorporate in new knowledge that has been acquired > with modern science and the dissemination of knowlege from other > traditions. > If anyone here uses Gan Mao Ling, then you should know that some of > the herbs in that have only been in use in CM for less than 100 > years. I also find the ability to get updates and alerts on the > presence of aristolochic acid in herbs and patents, to be > invaluable. Also, China now grows more ayurvedic herbs than India > and exports them back to them. > I also dont use violent purgatives in disease treatment, and will > happily refer a patient back to a western doctor so as to have > access to western diagnostics, and I think that given a choice I > would rather have western med for treatment for something like > glaucoma. (When we did opthalmology at Uni, they dug up this old guy > who had been an opthalmologist in China to come and talk to us, who > said that they would have to palpate their own eye and then feel the > patients eye to compare pressure... " if hard, like a pebble, then > glaucoma. " Given a choice, I'd rather go to an optometrist and have > a carefully calibrated bubble of air bounced off my eye.) > Another example is that TB had a very poor traditional prognosis as > it was differentiated as being a deficiency syndrome, and yet with > the advent of modern microbiology, it became known that TB was > actually a pathogen, which is technically an excess type of disease, > which needed to be treated with different herbs to combat the > underlying cause. Now we know that there are herbs that prove to be > at least somewhat effective against TB and these are incorporated > into treatment. > A great example is the isolation of Qinghaosu, or artemisinin from > Artemisia Annua, Qing Hao, for use as a malarial treatment. Which > kills more people than HIV/AIDS). (My mother met one of the chinese > researchers who isolated this, in Nanning in the early eighties, I > think she has a copy of his original paper, but shes not a CM > doctor, shes a marine biologist, so I dont know what she did with > it, but I digress.) This is a wonderfull treatment for people > already infected with the ovale or vivax strains (Im not sure if its > used for falciparum) and has saved many lives. Its ease of use in an > isolated form, makes it more readily available to poor areas where > malaria is endemic, and its just not practical to send a team of > herbalists with a boatload of raw herbs to do it the traditional > way. Unfortunately it was originally intended that this drug would > be offered in combination with other antimalarials to prevent or > reduce resistance, but the next thing you know, a friend told me he > bought it over the counter in Papua New Guinea. (Worked a treat, > too.) So we might yet screw this one up. > Now current research is showing that Qing Hao is also useful for > certain types of cancer, and cancer is another good example of why > we need to pay attention to Western science. In a statement that I > believe is accredited to Hippocrates, he said that if you were lucky > enough to find a patient with cancer, they were almost sure to die > of something else, first. These days, we are seeing the advent of > many types of cancer that can be very aggresive. This is a modern > disease and older traditional medicines, whilst of great value, dont > always keep up and may need to be modifed to suit. (Im not saying > that western medicine is on top of this either, we're all > floundering around in the dark to a certain extent.) Let necessity > be the mother of invention, I say. > When wen bing, warm disease theory was first expounded, it was in > response to pestilential epidemics that required new thinking and > new treatment, but it didnt devalue the thinking behind the shang > han lun. > I wish I could spend more time on this post and polish it up a bit, > but I have to go. More later. > Regards, > Lea. > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at >Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, >http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and adjust >accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the >group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if >absolutely necessary. > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 22, 2006 This brings to mind the federal govt finding that only about 20% of all the medical procedures in usage at the time had any validity (wonder what he would say to address that issue). The inequality is global and not just upon us. I think we need to bring this type of thing up for discussion (educate others with talking points on this) so that we are not always on the defensive over a research model that was not of our making and has problems. This is the classic blame game that we cannot win but we can certainly change the rules and the focus of the discussion. Also, consider that focused research upon efficacy and cost-effectiveness are more likely to bend the insurance/govt ear due to healthcare costs spiralling out of control and much dialogue about cutting huge insurance co out of it. An aside, HSA's, disease mgmt and EMR (electronic medical records) have not shown any cost containment so things could continue if allowed to. Insr companies need to find inexpensive ways to do things and there is our ticket. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >petetheisen <petetheisen >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's >Tue, 21 Mar 2006 20:29:51 -0500 > >mike Bowser wrote: > > Pete, > > The one that I find incredible is a conclusion without any merit or that >was > > not even what was studied. Like the one I read awhile ago that studied > > acupuncture for something but then concluded that LAc should not be in > > practice. > > > >Hi Mike! > >The quackwatch guy, Dr. Stephen Barrett, while admittedly irritating, >has posted something interesting about TCM research. If we could design >and produce trials that satisfied the objections, they would be good >trials. But it is not strictly necessary to do this, only to identify >where it has or has not been done. > >A larger question, how much WESTERN research satisfies the criteria? > >Regards, > >Pete > >http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html > >Begin quote: > >The quality of TCM research in China has been extremely poor. A recent >analysis of 2,938 reports of clinical trials reported in Chinese medical >journals concluded that that no conclusions could be drawn from the vast >majority of them. The researchers stated: > > In most of the trials, disease was defined and diagnosed according >to conventional medicine; trial outcomes were assessed with objective or >subjective (or both) methods of conventional medicine, often >complemented by traditional Chinese methods. Over 90% of the trials in >non-specialist journals evaluated herbal treatments that were mostly >proprietary Chinese medicines. . . . > > Although methodological quality has been improving over the years, >many problems remain. The method of randomisation was often >inappropriately described. Blinding was used in only 15% of trials. Only >a few studies had sample sizes of 300 subjects or more. Many trials used >as a control another Chinese medicine treatment whose effectiveness had >often not been evaluated by randomised controlled trials. Most trials >focused on short term or intermediate rather than long term outcomes. >Most trials did not report data on compliance and completeness of follow >up. Effectiveness was rarely quantitatively expressed and reported. >Intention to treat analysis was never mentioned. Over half did not >report data on baseline characteristics or on side effects. Many trials >were published as short reports. Most trials claimed that the tested >treatments were effective, indicating that publication bias may be >common; a funnel plot of the 49 trials of acupuncture in the treatment >of stroke confirmed selective publication of positive trials in the >area, suggesting that acupuncture may not be more effective than the >control treatments. [9] > >End quote. > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>petetheisen <petetheisen > >>Chinese Medicine > >>Chinese Medicine > >>Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > >>Tue, 21 Mar 2006 05:49:59 -0500 > >> > >>mike Bowser wrote: > >> > >>>So, what are we then to say about the poor quality western medical > >>>studies or the pharmaceutical ones that intentionally mislead or > >>>change results? > >> > >>Hi Mike! > >> > >>Oh, yes. It appears to be a trend to just publish the conclusion, not > >>the method or (heaven forbid) the data. Maybe I just don't know where to > >>find the good stuff? > >> > >>Regards, > >> > >>Pete > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at >Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, >http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > and adjust >accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the >group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if >absolutely necessary. > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 22, 2006 the basically had both individual dx and fixed formula pt. The patients received their herbs from a pharmacy that would either give a placebo or the real formula. That is one example of a well done study on CM. There are many ways we can study CM and still keep the integrity of CM as well as the scientific method. Anything else is an excuse Oakland, CA 94609 - Attilio D'Alberto Chinese Medicine Tuesday, March 21, 2006 11:37 PM RE: Re: pregnancy tx's Do you have any more info on that study Alon? Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. Editor Times +44 (0) 208 367 8378 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Alon Marcus DOM 22 March 2006 00:04 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: pregnancy tx's No one has come up >with the solution of including a TCM pattern analysis into the RCT model. >>>>>>>>> Attilio Look the the irritable bowl study. Oakland, CA 94609 - mike Bowser Chinese Medicine Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:00 AM RE: Re: pregnancy tx's It sounds like you need to conduct a study with two filters that allow for population entry. One is the modern chief complaint or illness and the second is to have only those with a specific TCM pattern. Should not be that hard as long as one chooses a broad problem like low back pain. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >RE: Re: pregnancy tx's >Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:31:53 -0000 > >The inclusion of a pattern analysis into RCTs is something I've been >thinking and talking about for sometime. It is the crux of the problem TCM >faces in getting evaluated as evidence based research. No one has come up >with the solution of including a TCM pattern analysis into the RCT model. >The problem is that there are many different schools of thought within TCM, >many different diagnosis to the same problem and these cannot be expressed >within a strict RCT framework. I was thinking about using the statistically >significant model on the pattern analysis as well after asking a committee >of 10 leading pattern analysis experts. What do others think to this? > >Warm regards, > >Attilio D'Alberto >Doctor of (Beijing, China) >B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. >Editor > Times >+44 (0) 208 367 8378 >enquiries > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Alon >Marcus DOM >21 March 2006 00:38 >Chinese Medicine >Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > > > >If only specific studies for >Chinese herbal medicines matched to biomedical diseases can be >included as evidence (without pattern differentiation), > >>>> >Why would you not have patter dx? >you can still have an objective evaluation even when doing pattern dx > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > > Chinese Medicine > Monday, March 20, 2006 4:34 PM > Re: Re: pregnancy tx's > > > The issue isn't so much whether practice should be evidence-based, > but what are the criteria for evidence? If only specific studies for > Chinese herbal medicines matched to biomedical diseases can be > included as evidence (without pattern differentiation), it will > pretty much eliminate any evidence for its efficacy. Two thousand > years of case histories would have to be discarded, and the pattern- > based studies done in mainland China in modern times as well. This > type of 'evidence' will lead to the complete exclusion of Chinese > medicine from modern health care. > > If the concept of 'evidence' can include the case histories, pattern- > based studies of historical record as well as modern times, than > these criteria can be used. > > " Evidence-based " medicine is an often culture-bound phenomenon as > presently expressed, that eliminates most of the useful criteria > already existing within the body of Chinese medicine. > > > On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:22 PM, suecochrane36 wrote: > > > I am involved with the Masters of Acupuncture/ at > > University of Western Sydney and we have received much criticism > > from colleagues about offering 'Evidence based Practice 1 & 2' as > > compulsory units. There is much discussion of whether we are taking > > TCM off-track by such an emphasis on western scientific method. Some > > of our first graduating students argue that they can now read > > research reports critically and understand the flaws and biases > > within the available research. Surely a skill we should value. But > > I am about to send an email to a student who is considering > > withdrawing because of this emphasis within the course! Just as > > well TCM is a diverse church! > > Sue > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 22, 2006 I think the reason I dont should be fairly self evident. Im talking about extreme carthartics here, that have substantial toxicity and even carcinogenicity, hence the purgative nature of them. Like Ba Dou. If I had a patient with say, heart or kidney failure to the extent that I needed to use carthartics like that, they would probably be better off recieving western medicine in a hospital setting. WM is good for some things. As for ascitic patients, the ones I have treated before generally had portal hypertension. (Colourfully referred to as " squirters " by those in the paramedicine field) and I felt that this should also exclude them from treatments like this. If you have encountered patients who could not more easily be helped by western medicine and responded well to a treatment like this, then I would be really interested to know about them. It would be good to know for future reference that there is a treatment, no matter how harsh, available. I am also aware of a situation that exemplifies the toxicity of some of these herbs, a while ago in Australia a small child died from eating just one Ba Dou seed, they thought it was candy and then swallowed it, I think. (And yes, you might say that they should have stored them better, but as the mother of a three year old who can, and will, get into anything, youd have to keep them in a locked box with a padlock.) Regards, Lea. Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus DOM " <alonmarcus wrote: > > I also dont use violent purgatives in disease treatment > >>>>> > Lea why not? these can sometimes be the only effective approach > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > leabun1 > Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, March 21, 2006 4:39 PM > Re: pregnancy tx's > > > Hello all, > I do not think that this debate is limited to chinese medicine. Have > a look at environmental science sometime! Which is all the more > reason for students of chinese medicine to recieve good training in > analysis of data of this type. It is also important for chinese > medicine practitioners to be able to critically analyze western > medicine studies as well, as almost all your patients will be > recieving some type of western medicine treatment in their lives as > well. > This was exemplified by somebody previously on this forum who was > unable to properly analyze the efficacy of cervical pap smears and > thought that a lower percentage meant that it was not useful, and I > think somebody replied well in explaining how this is just > incorporated into the protocol for frequency of use, which makes the > screening quite successfull. > At RMIT university there have been a few studies done recently in > the chinese med. dept. that I am pretty sure incorporated CM > differentiation into the selection criteria, you could always go to > www.rmit.edu.au and have a look for them, a hayfever study was > published in many journals, and there is a migraine trial underway > at the moment. (Just look for the name Xue, hes the head of the > unit, so his names on everything I think.) I believe one thing they > did in designing these trials was to go to the head of the > statistics dept. of the university, and ask them if they wanted to > have their name on a paper. I believe that their statistics are > beyond reproach, for that reason. But RMIT is a large university > with a large biomedical science faculty and so has alot of resources > to draw on, and postgrad research positions for people to conduct > these studies. > On another note, I believe it was Mike Bowser who posted the > question about the term TCM? I actually use it in the opposite sense > and try never to use the term " traditional " for post 1940's CM. I > refer to what I do as Chinese medicine, as it is anything but > traditional, and this is a good thing. I do not practice so > called " medical acupuncture " or " medical herbalism " , I practice > herbal medicine and acupuncture in the way it has always been > practiced, based on chinese med. differentiation and the use of > classical formulae. And I prefer raw herbs by decoction, if I can > get my patients to take them, but I also make tinctures and stock > patents. Only I incorporate in new knowledge that has been acquired > with modern science and the dissemination of knowlege from other > traditions. > If anyone here uses Gan Mao Ling, then you should know that some of > the herbs in that have only been in use in CM for less than 100 > years. I also find the ability to get updates and alerts on the > presence of aristolochic acid in herbs and patents, to be > invaluable. Also, China now grows more ayurvedic herbs than India > and exports them back to them. > I also dont use violent purgatives in disease treatment, and will > happily refer a patient back to a western doctor so as to have > access to western diagnostics, and I think that given a choice I > would rather have western med for treatment for something like > glaucoma. (When we did opthalmology at Uni, they dug up this old guy > who had been an opthalmologist in China to come and talk to us, who > said that they would have to palpate their own eye and then feel the > patients eye to compare pressure... " if hard, like a pebble, then > glaucoma. " Given a choice, I'd rather go to an optometrist and have > a carefully calibrated bubble of air bounced off my eye.) > Another example is that TB had a very poor traditional prognosis as > it was differentiated as being a deficiency syndrome, and yet with > the advent of modern microbiology, it became known that TB was > actually a pathogen, which is technically an excess type of disease, > which needed to be treated with different herbs to combat the > underlying cause. Now we know that there are herbs that prove to be > at least somewhat effective against TB and these are incorporated > into treatment. > A great example is the isolation of Qinghaosu, or artemisinin from > Artemisia Annua, Qing Hao, for use as a malarial treatment. Which > kills more people than HIV/AIDS). (My mother met one of the chinese > researchers who isolated this, in Nanning in the early eighties, I > think she has a copy of his original paper, but shes not a CM > doctor, shes a marine biologist, so I dont know what she did with > it, but I digress.) This is a wonderfull treatment for people > already infected with the ovale or vivax strains (Im not sure if its > used for falciparum) and has saved many lives. Its ease of use in an > isolated form, makes it more readily available to poor areas where > malaria is endemic, and its just not practical to send a team of > herbalists with a boatload of raw herbs to do it the traditional > way. Unfortunately it was originally intended that this drug would > be offered in combination with other antimalarials to prevent or > reduce resistance, but the next thing you know, a friend told me he > bought it over the counter in Papua New Guinea. (Worked a treat, > too.) So we might yet screw this one up. > Now current research is showing that Qing Hao is also useful for > certain types of cancer, and cancer is another good example of why > we need to pay attention to Western science. In a statement that I > believe is accredited to Hippocrates, he said that if you were lucky > enough to find a patient with cancer, they were almost sure to die > of something else, first. These days, we are seeing the advent of > many types of cancer that can be very aggresive. This is a modern > disease and older traditional medicines, whilst of great value, dont > always keep up and may need to be modifed to suit. (Im not saying > that western medicine is on top of this either, we're all > floundering around in the dark to a certain extent.) Let necessity > be the mother of invention, I say. > When wen bing, warm disease theory was first expounded, it was in > response to pestilential epidemics that required new thinking and > new treatment, but it didnt devalue the thinking behind the shang > han lun. > I wish I could spend more time on this post and polish it up a bit, > but I have to go. More later. > Regards, > Lea. > > > > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Chinese Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > and adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites