I'm going to make Asian Medicine more popular but...

February 22, 2006

Zev,

Do you think it might be a good idea to have a class or presentation for the

students that frequently gets them involved with understanding of the issues

(and laws)? I am seeing that early involvement with students is imperative.

Our chiro school even sends students to Wash DC to meet with legislators.

We also pay a small fee from our loans to national associations at student

rates. I am seeing a little of this in CA, with the advent of a student

membership rate by CSOMA. I am concerned that those of us who have been

around a few years are no longer in touch with the needs and desires of the

future students nor do we have a global vision. This can further create

rifts in our small profession.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " " <zrosenbe

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Re: I'm going to make Asian Medicine more popular

>but...

>Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:49:54 -0800

>

>First of all, I don't see where anyone was putting Kelvin down for

>his work. There are many types of individuals in this profession,

>and each one has to do his or her part. I don't think everyone

>should be the same or do the same thing in this or any other profession.

>

>It is quite unfair of you to lump everyone who 'are protecting the

>roots of the medicine' as having their heads in the sand. We choose

>our battles and do our best. I myself 'did my time', spending quite

>a bit of time in state legislatures in New Mexico and Colorado,

>working on licensure bills and other issues. If I choose to

>concentrate on other issues right now, such as accurate

>terminological representation of our medical tradition, I or others

>like me should not have to bear being branded as escapists.

>

>I would say that the track record of political action here in

>California has been largely counterproductive, as a profession we've

>shot ourselves in the foot too many times. An unresponsive

>acupuncture board, and an ongoing fatuous war between the

>practitioners' associations and the schools has blown a lot of the

>gains that were made earlier on. You can't blame apathy for a lot of

>the mistakes made here, it is sheer political incompetence.

>

>An 'us versus them' mentality, 'sky is falling' mentality in

>California has led to divisiveness within the profession here, so if

>I seem a bit cynical at time about political action, this may be one

>reason why.

>

>On Feb 21, 2006, at 7:08 AM, acudoc11 wrote:

>

> > At the same time they have no interest in doing the work we are

> > doing. They

> > also have no idea of the reality that we are in (circa 2006) and

> > the 60's and

> > 70's are long gone..never to return.

> >

> > The polticial climate of today is totally different than even from

> > just a few

> > years ago.

> >

> > They can remain with heads burried in the sand (their reality) but

> > if the

> > profession as a whole doesn't succeed in the battle that is at

> > hand..........the

> > profession will NEVER survive as they envision it.

> >

> > Some speak about not caring to be included in insurance

> > reimbursement but the

> > system doesn't even want AP/OM to even have its own cash register.

> > Just see

> > what happened in California regarding their ability to diagnose and

> > treat

> > illness and injury and watch that erode even further. I believe

> > that California

> > licensees also LOST a bundle in Workers Comp coverage. These people

> > shouldn't be

> > putting down others like yourself who fighting another just as

> > valuable

> > realistic battle.......maybe even more important.

>

February 22, 2006

In a message dated 2/22/06 2:18:30 PM, acudoc11 writes:

> Does anyone really believe that JAHCO will ever allow any OM licensee into

> a

> hospital?

>

Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Hospital here in NYC sent out a job

notification for a full-time acupuncturist last fall. They wanted a minimum of

5 yrs

in the field and said degrees in nursing or PT were a plus but not a necessity

for the job. I do not know who got the job, or the salary.

I don't know if it really means much, but PCOM-NY has internships at St.

Vincent's Hospital here in Manhattan, as well as at NYU Medical Center/Hospital

for Special Surgery, and at a hospital in the Bronx.

--roseanne s.

February 22, 2006

Richard,

Well spoken. I often wonder if our collective profession is ready to accept

that various forces, ie the medical/insurance industry, will try everything

to stay alive and maintain power. Downsizing of their monopoly will create

more struggle within them and tend to reduce our ops within them. On a side

note, I think that the collaborations (w/DAOM programs) of various OM

schools with hospitals stands to help us in this. Creating more options is

a good thing for all of us.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>acudoc11

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Re: I'm going to make Asian Medicine more popular

>but...

>Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:17:17 EST

>

>No one was lumping anyone into any category.

>

>Those of us who choose to champion the cause the way Kelvin and I do

>should

>be supported just as much as those who wish to protect the roots and

>accurate

>terminology. One without the other will make for a poor survival.

>

>They both have their place.

>

>The disease condition is getting worse and being cynical is not what is

>needed regardless of where anyone has come from or what they did for the

>profession yesterday/yesteryear.

>

>Maybe in the past there were some shouting doom and gloom (way too soon)

>but

>today that reality is stronger than ever. Just look at the AMA and local

>web-sites. Look at the TV.....and SEE the move by allopathic medicine to

>WIPE

>OUT anything and everything in its way.

>

>What has been one's protected cubby-area of treating patients is not going

>to be so safe much longer even though the public is clamoring for our

>services.

>

>If collectively we don't wake up soon and support EACH OTHER......the

>future

>for AP/OM is questionable.

>

>One such resolution should more importantly address the silent apathetic

>majority. Therein lies the real problem. Apathy appears to be a human

>condition

>and not just in the AP/OM profession.

>

>Richard Freiberg

>

>First of all, I don't see where anyone was putting Kelvin down for

>his work. There are many types of individuals in this profession,

>and each one has to do his or her part. I don't think everyone

>should be the same or do the same thing in this or any other profession.

>

>It is quite unfair of you to lump everyone who 'are protecting the

>roots of the medicine' as having their heads in the sand. We choose

>our battles and do our best. I myself 'did my time', spending quite

>a bit of time in state legislatures in New Mexico and Colorado,

>working on licensure bills and other issues. If I choose to

>concentrate on other issues right now, such as accurate

>terminological representation of our medical tradition, I or others

>like me should not have to bear being branded as escapists.

>

>I would say that the track record of political action here in

>California has been largely counterproductive, as a profession we've

>shot ourselves in the foot too many times. An unresponsive

>acupuncture board, and an ongoing fatuous war between the

>practitioners' associations and the schools has blown a lot of the

>gains that were made earlier on. You can't blame apathy for a lot of

>the mistakes made here, it is sheer political incompetence.

>

>An 'us versus them' mentality, 'sky is falling' mentality in

>California has led to divisiveness within the profession here, so if

>I seem a bit cynical at time about political action, this may be one

>reason why.

>

February 22, 2006

It is in Asia and if we want it to become so here, I think we need to work

better with those across the world to better utilize our resources and

educate the populace better.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " acupuncturebeverlyhills " <acupuncturebeverlyhills

>Chinese Medicine

> Re: I'm going to make Asian Medicine more popular but...

>Tue, 21 Feb 2006 20:35:52 -0000

>

>Chinese Medicine , " "

><zrosenbe wrote:

> >

> > Actually, I think we are winning. Small victories. Every patient

> > that gets well, or is less dependent on medications is a victory.

> >Let's not be grandiose about it.

>

>Well, the other Z've, said this.

> " especially since twenty years

>ago the situation was much less severe (with abuse of

>pharmaceuticals). "

>

>We need to be grandiose, we need to be heard, to get the word out that

>you can actually fix problems with Asia medicine and not just mask

>them with drugs, we need to show that some incurable deseases can be

>cured.

>

>Small victories on Z'ev street, how wonderful they may be, isn't going

>to do this.

>

>To any one reading this, I'm not fighting or picking on Z've, I

>respect his hard work and what he has done so far. I just believe it

>is time for Asian Medicine to go main stream.

>

>Kelvin

>

> >

> > On Feb 21, 2006, at 11:53 AM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > You want to get them before the drugs, they want them on the drugs.

> > > You are competing and, it seems over the last twenty years, you are

> > > losing.

> >

February 22, 2006

The schools have been at odds with the practitioners from day one. That's

the way this whole game was set up.

No one seems remember that it all started with ONE man at the helm of ALL

the ruling organizations....such as AAAOM, NCCAOM, CCAOM, ACAOM...not to forget

that this same person also started a school not to far from his teaching

position at Harvard. Imagine that an acupunture-ist was allowed to teach at

Harvard.

And not to forget that the same crew of those organizations played musical

chairs throughout many years and now no one sees whose who......but all roads

appear to go back to those questionable beginnings.

In a message dated 02/22/06 3:10:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

zrosenbe writes:

This is a very good idea. Unfortunately, here in California, the

adversarial atmosphere between the schools and the practitioners'

associations makes it difficult to create a united front for the

field.

February 22, 2006

In a message dated 2/22/2006 2:18:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

acudoc11 writes:

Does anyone really believe that JAHCO will ever allow any OM licensee into

a

hospital?

This came from Family Practice web site as you can see MD that do family

practice can have a hard time getting privileges in a hospital. Please see my

bolded parts must be trained in C sections. Part of hospital policy.

And see that last part about the legal side.

Scope-of-practice issues have been and will continue to be a crucial

battleground for family physicians. Although turf battles typically originate

from

political and economic motives rather than true quality-of-care concerns, they

are not to be taken lightly. They can ultimately limit a physician's scope

of practice. At the heart of this struggle is the process of credentialing and

privileging, which, if done correctly, ensures both quality patient care and

the ability of qualified, well-trained family physicians to provide that

care. If it were easy, you would not be reading this article, which tackles the

question " What do I do when faced with a privileging battle? "

Pre-empt the battle

The best way to guarantee you never lose a privileging conflict is to never

have one in the first place. Your hospital should have a privileging process

that is fair and grants privileges based on documented training, experience

and current clinical competence. Privileging based on any other factors is

contrary to the written standards of the Joint Commission on Accreditation of

Healthcare Organizations (JCAHO). When privileging battles go to court, they

are won principally because the privileging process deviated from this

standard. Specialty designation in and of itself is not grounds for granting or

denying any privilege, period.

You must be completely familiar with your institution's privileging process

and bylaws and, if needed, must work to change them so that they are

equitable. The following elements are essential to a fair process:

Full clinical departments. Your hospital should provide a full clinical

department of family medicine, not merely an administrative department. The

department of family medicine must function in exactly the same manner as any

other

department in the hospital and must have membership standards that keep it

from becoming a dumping ground for hard-to-place physicians. Ideally,

membership in the department would be limited to family physicians who are

residency

trained and board certified, those who are board certified although not

residency trained and those who have several years of experience and

demonstrated

competence as family physicians even though they are not residency trained or

board certified.

Uniform criteria. The JCAHO recommends that hospitals develop specific

privileging criteria for most procedures and apply those criteria

hospital-wide.

For example, criteria for electrocardiogram interpretation, pneumonia

management or colonoscopy must be the same for all physicians in the hospital,

regardless of departmental affiliation or specialty. There should not be one

set of

criteria for family physicians and another for internists. If your hospital

does not have hospital-wide criteria for the major procedures, work with your

department and credentialing and executive committees to develop them.

Full credentialing authority.

The privileging and credentialing processes in the family medicine

department must occur exactly as they do in any other department, without

exception.

For starters, family physicians must be credentialed and considered for

privileges by their own departments, just as other specialists are. Privilege

recommendations from the department of family medicine should then be forwarded

directly to the credentials committee; the assent or approval of other

departments is not needed.

When the recommended privileges fall outside the normal scope of practice of

the department making the recommendation, the use of hospital-wide criteria

can be very helpful. At our hospital we have established criteria for

Cesarean section, which any physician - regardless of specialty - uses when

applying

for that privilege._1_ (http://www.aafp.org/fpm/20040300/69figh.html#refs)

As a result, the family medicine department may evaluate applicants and send

recommendations directly to the credentials committee without going through

the obstetrics/gynecology department. The establishment and use of

hospital-wide criteria does not preclude any department from seeking input and

advice

from any other department.

Board ownership of privileging. No department owns any privilege. The role of

clinical departments and credentials committees must be limited to

evaluating physicians' applications for privileges and forwarding

recommendations to

the next level. Legally, only the governing board of the hospital has the

right to grant privileges, taking under advisement the recommendations from

both

the physician's department and the credentials committee. Governing boards

have recently been held accountable in court for the privileges they grant,

bringing to an end the days when recommendations from the medical staff were

simply " rubber stamped. " Hospital boards have a fiduciary responsibility to the

institution and the community to take credentialing and privileging very

seriously, which brings the process out into the open. This is as good for

patient care as it is for family medicine departments.

February 22, 2006

Richard,

This is the ugly side of healthcare politics that most of us do not want to

acknowledge. We think that all will be OK because we say so. I thinks a

reality check might be in order for the associations. No membership means

no money which means no association.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>acudoc11

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Re: I'm going to make Asian Medicine more popular

>but...

>Mon, 20 Feb 2006 16:42:20 EST

>

>Kelvin

>

>Here in Florida the HEAT is on to REMOVE our titles and THEN SOME.

>

>A very FEW of us are doing ALL the defense while the masses of

>practitioners

>sit on their asses.

>

>In the END there will be no one to blame but THEMSELVES.

>

>The allopaths are good at turning us against each other and other

>practitioners, such as Chiros etc.

>

>The system infiltrates our associations via lawyers & lobbyists who are

>beholden to THEM. They rack up huge bills which the memberships can't pay

>and

>ultimately will be flushing our practice scopes DOWN the TOILET.

>

>And those infiltrated acupuncture/om organizations SELL a 'bill of goods'

>of

>nothing but lullaby stories.......telling us not to worry....and that

>everything will be all right.

>

>My response IS....MAKE those AP/OM orgs which have been infiltrated along

>with the state or federal legislators give all practitioners a WRITTEN

>GUARANTEE. Of course the response will be.....'oh we can't guarantee

>anything'.

>

>And therein LIES the TRUTH. Acupuncture & Oriental medicine is about to

>become more subservient in the US than its ever been. We are not even

>addressing

>the issue being reimbursed by insurance.

>

>The system as it exists doesn't like or want anyone who has their own cash

>register. You either work for them or STARVE or worse yet...be put out of

>business. Its that simple. It is ALL about money.

>

>Richard A. Freiberg, OMD, AP

>

>In a message dated 02/20/06 2:58:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

>acupuncturebeverlyhills writes:

>

>It's great that you are in a place where you feel that you don't have

>to compete with anyone. So maybe this topic doesn't concern you.

>Would you feel different if there was a bill being passed saying you

>had to be AMA certified to do acupuncture in CA? Some insurance

>companys already say you need to be a " Acupuncture Physician " .

>

>For the rest of us please go back to the original thread and let me

>know what you think.

>

>You may believe you are not competing but I'll tell you they are

>competing against us. Read this article and it tells about the money

>at stake. Re-read the first sentence.

>http://www.locateadoc.com/articles.cfm/672/217

>

>Kelvin

>

February 22, 2006

In a message dated 2/22/2006 2:43:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

yorkstreet.clinic writes:

Unfortunately true, for many so called Doctors or healers it is about the

money and not the patient. If they were truly looking at patient needs they

would be supporting anything that helped not opposing us or other healing

arts.

I went to cancer seminar taught by a MD, he stated " unfortunately medicine

is a business " .

February 22, 2006

Mike Richard Z'ev Kelvin et al

On 2/22/06, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

> Richard,

>

> > I often wonder if our collective profession is ready to accept

> that various forces, ie the medical/insurance industry, will try

> everything

> to stay alive and maintain power. Downsizing of their monopoly will

> create

> more struggle within them and tend to reduce our ops within them. <

Unfortunately true, for many so called Doctors or healers it is about the

money and not the patient. If they were truly looking at patient needs they

would be supporting anything that helped not opposing us or other healing

arts.

At the same time I do not think that setting ourselves up in opposition /

confrontation/ or competition with them is the answer either.

I believe that our best strategy may well be to simply do what we do best

-helping our patients- while keeping an eye open in the state and federal

legislatures and international forums like the WTO/EU/FTAA etc for the Big

Medicine/ Big Pharm tricksters.

> On a side

> note, I think that the collaborations (w/DAOM programs) of various OM

> schools with hospitals stands to help us in this. Creating more options

> is

> a good thing for all of us.<

I agree!

Also it is of great value as well when we are able to build referral

networks with individual Dr.s and Hospitals as I and others here have done.

I have been accepted for practice within the Allopathic hospital system for

more than 25 years and this has in turn opened doors for others in our

profession.

> >Those of us who choose to champion the cause the way Kelvin and I do

> >should

> >be supported just as much as those who wish to protect the roots and

> >accurate

> >terminology. One without the other will make for a poor survival.

> >

> >They both have their place.<

Hmmm sounds like - dare i say it - Yin Yang.

> Just look at the AMA and local

> >web-sites. Look at the TV.....and SEE the move by allopathic medicine to

> >WIPE

> >OUT anything and everything in its way.<

The AMA was specifically set up in the 1800s to wipe out -as you put it- the

Homeopathic Physicians here in the USA. Their mission is to keep their

monopoly.

(At that time Homeopathy was the preferred form of treatment)

> >I would say that the track record of political action here in

> >California has been largely counterproductive, as a profession we've

> >shot ourselves in the foot too many times. An unresponsive

> >acupuncture board, and an ongoing fatuous war between the

> >practitioners' associations and the schools has blown a lot of the

> >gains that were made earlier on. You can't blame apathy for a lot of

> >the mistakes made here, it is sheer political incompetence.<

Z'ev as you point out it your own statement is not political action but

politicaly naive thinking and in fighting that are the problem.

Let us not confuse positive political action with the incredible

petty nonsense you have going on with the numerous seperate associations in

CA.

Thanks to the ground work by you and others here in Colorado we have so far

managed to avoid this.

Doc

February 22, 2006

Mike,

This is a very good idea. Unfortunately, here in California, the

adversarial atmosphere between the schools and the practitioners'

associations makes it difficult to create a united front for the

field. At some point, I think, I'll prepare an article for

Acupuncture Today on my perspective of the political history of our

profession in California. I'm just not prepared to dodge the bullets

right now.

On Feb 22, 2006, at 9:27 AM, mike Bowser wrote:

> Zev,

>

> Do you think it might be a good idea to have a class or

> presentation for the

> students that frequently gets them involved with understanding of

> the issues

> (and laws)? I am seeing that early involvement with students is

> imperative.

> Our chiro school even sends students to Wash DC to meet with

> legislators.

> We also pay a small fee from our loans to national associations at

> student

> rates. I am seeing a little of this in CA, with the advent of a

> student

> membership rate by CSOMA. I am concerned that those of us who have

> been

> around a few years are no longer in touch with the needs and

> desires of the

> future students nor do we have a global vision. This can further

> create

> rifts in our small profession.

>

> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

>> " " <zrosenbe

>> Chinese Medicine

>> Re: Re: I'm going to make Asian Medicine more popular

>> but...

>> Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:49:54 -0800

>>

>> First of all, I don't see where anyone was putting Kelvin down for

>> his work. There are many types of individuals in this profession,

>> and each one has to do his or her part. I don't think everyone

>> should be the same or do the same thing in this or any other

>> profession.

>>

>> It is quite unfair of you to lump everyone who 'are protecting the

>> roots of the medicine' as having their heads in the sand. We choose

>> our battles and do our best. I myself 'did my time', spending quite

>> a bit of time in state legislatures in New Mexico and Colorado,

>> working on licensure bills and other issues. If I choose to

>> concentrate on other issues right now, such as accurate

>> terminological representation of our medical tradition, I or others

>> like me should not have to bear being branded as escapists.

>>

>> I would say that the track record of political action here in

>> California has been largely counterproductive, as a profession we've

>> shot ourselves in the foot too many times. An unresponsive

>> acupuncture board, and an ongoing fatuous war between the

>> practitioners' associations and the schools has blown a lot of the

>> gains that were made earlier on. You can't blame apathy for a lot of

>> the mistakes made here, it is sheer political incompetence.

>>

>> An 'us versus them' mentality, 'sky is falling' mentality in

>> California has led to divisiveness within the profession here, so if

>> I seem a bit cynical at time about political action, this may be one

>> reason why.

>>

>> On Feb 21, 2006, at 7:08 AM, acudoc11 wrote:

>>

>>> At the same time they have no interest in doing the work we are

>>> doing. They

>>> also have no idea of the reality that we are in (circa 2006) and

>>> the 60's and

>>> 70's are long gone..never to return.

>>>

>>> The polticial climate of today is totally different than even from

>>> just a few

>>> years ago.

>>>

>>> They can remain with heads burried in the sand (their reality) but

>>> if the

>>> profession as a whole doesn't succeed in the battle that is at

>>> hand..........the

>>> profession will NEVER survive as they envision it.

>>>

>>> Some speak about not caring to be included in insurance

>>> reimbursement but the

>>> system doesn't even want AP/OM to even have its own cash register.

>>> Just see

>>> what happened in California regarding their ability to diagnose and

>>> treat

>>> illness and injury and watch that erode even further. I believe

>>> that California

>>> licensees also LOST a bundle in Workers Comp coverage. These people

>>> shouldn't be

>>> putting down others like yourself who fighting another just as

>>> valuable

>>> realistic battle.......maybe even more important.

>>

February 22, 2006

This wall needs to come down. Duck!

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " " <zrosenbe

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Re: I'm going to make Asian Medicine more popular but...

>Wed, 22 Feb 2006 12:08:25 -0800

>

>Mike,

> This is a very good idea. Unfortunately, here in California, the

>adversarial atmosphere between the schools and the practitioners'

>associations makes it difficult to create a united front for the

>field. At some point, I think, I'll prepare an article for

>Acupuncture Today on my perspective of the political history of our

>profession in California. I'm just not prepared to dodge the bullets

>right now.

>

>On Feb 22, 2006, at 9:27 AM, mike Bowser wrote:

>

> > Zev,

> >

> > Do you think it might be a good idea to have a class or

> > presentation for the

> > students that frequently gets them involved with understanding of

> > the issues

> > (and laws)? I am seeing that early involvement with students is

> > imperative.

> > Our chiro school even sends students to Wash DC to meet with

> > legislators.

> > We also pay a small fee from our loans to national associations at

> > student

> > rates. I am seeing a little of this in CA, with the advent of a

> > student

> > membership rate by CSOMA. I am concerned that those of us who have

> > been

> > around a few years are no longer in touch with the needs and

> > desires of the

> > future students nor do we have a global vision. This can further

> > create

> > rifts in our small profession.

> >

> > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> >

> >> " " <zrosenbe

> >> Chinese Medicine

> >> Re: Re: I'm going to make Asian Medicine more popular

> >> but...

> >> Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:49:54 -0800

> >>

> >> First of all, I don't see where anyone was putting Kelvin down for

> >> his work. There are many types of individuals in this profession,

> >> and each one has to do his or her part. I don't think everyone

> >> should be the same or do the same thing in this or any other

> >> profession.

> >>

> >> It is quite unfair of you to lump everyone who 'are protecting the

> >> roots of the medicine' as having their heads in the sand. We choose

> >> our battles and do our best. I myself 'did my time', spending quite

> >> a bit of time in state legislatures in New Mexico and Colorado,

> >> working on licensure bills and other issues. If I choose to

> >> concentrate on other issues right now, such as accurate

> >> terminological representation of our medical tradition, I or others

> >> like me should not have to bear being branded as escapists.

> >>

> >> I would say that the track record of political action here in

> >> California has been largely counterproductive, as a profession we've

> >> shot ourselves in the foot too many times. An unresponsive

> >> acupuncture board, and an ongoing fatuous war between the

> >> practitioners' associations and the schools has blown a lot of the

> >> gains that were made earlier on. You can't blame apathy for a lot of

> >> the mistakes made here, it is sheer political incompetence.

> >>

> >> An 'us versus them' mentality, 'sky is falling' mentality in

> >> California has led to divisiveness within the profession here, so if

> >> I seem a bit cynical at time about political action, this may be one

> >> reason why.

> >>

> >> On Feb 21, 2006, at 7:08 AM, acudoc11 wrote:

> >>

> >>> At the same time they have no interest in doing the work we are

> >>> doing. They

> >>> also have no idea of the reality that we are in (circa 2006) and

> >>> the 60's and

> >>> 70's are long gone..never to return.

> >>>

> >>> The polticial climate of today is totally different than even from

> >>> just a few

> >>> years ago.

> >>>

> >>> They can remain with heads burried in the sand (their reality) but

> >>> if the

> >>> profession as a whole doesn't succeed in the battle that is at

> >>> hand..........the

> >>> profession will NEVER survive as they envision it.

> >>>

> >>> Some speak about not caring to be included in insurance

> >>> reimbursement but the

> >>> system doesn't even want AP/OM to even have its own cash register.

> >>> Just see

> >>> what happened in California regarding their ability to diagnose and

> >>> treat

> >>> illness and injury and watch that erode even further. I believe

> >>> that California

> >>> licensees also LOST a bundle in Workers Comp coverage. These people

> >>> shouldn't be

> >>> putting down others like yourself who fighting another just as

> >>> valuable

> >>> realistic battle.......maybe even more important.

> >>

February 22, 2006

Hi there, I am going to be one of the fellows working

at St Vincent's Hospital in NYC. I will writing in

occasionally to inform you all on its' progress. We

start in 2 weeks.

Freddy Jente

--- ra6151 wrote:

>

> In a message dated 2/22/06 2:18:30 PM,

> acudoc11 writes:

>

> > Does anyone really believe that JAHCO will ever

> allow any OM licensee into

> > a

> > hospital?

> >

>

> Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Hospital here in NYC

> sent out a job

> notification for a full-time acupuncturist last

> fall. They wanted a minimum of 5 yrs

> in the field and said degrees in nursing or PT were

> a plus but not a necessity

> for the job. I do not know who got the job, or the

> salary.

>

> I don't know if it really means much, but PCOM-NY

> has internships at St.

> Vincent's Hospital here in Manhattan, as well as at

> NYU Medical Center/Hospital

> for Special Surgery, and at a hospital in the Bronx.

>

> --roseanne s.

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

February 22, 2006

Guy,

What did you do to make Asian medicine more popular locally?

DrGRPorter wrote:

Kelvin:

I have to tell you that I fully respect your zeal and commitment to making

Asian medicine more popular. I did that very thing where I practiced, and it

made a difference for a lot of people in my town and it definitely helped me

personally.

I hope you will do what you set out to do without waiting for approval or

agreement from " the list " as a whole. I encourage you to go out and do your

best.

You will most certainly thrive.

Guy Porter

February 23, 2006

Let's not forget your great work in Colorado to help establish the

profession there. It was great working together with you on the

licensing bill. . .. hard to believe it was so many years ago already!

On Feb 22, 2006, at 11:40 AM, Colorado Healthcare Associates wrote:

> Z'ev as you point out it your own statement is not political action

> but

> politicaly naive thinking and in fighting that are the problem.

> Let us not confuse positive political action with the incredible

> petty nonsense you have going on with the numerous seperate

> associations in

> CA.

> Thanks to the ground work by you and others here in Colorado we

> have so far

> managed to avoid this.

>

> Doc

February 23, 2006

Similarly,

Emperor's college set up an agreement for its doctoral interns to practice

within Freeman Memorial Hospital in LA. As the degree focus is on pain and

ortho problems these would be mostly non-critical patients, but still.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>ra6151

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Re: I'm going to make Asian Medicine more popular but...

>Wed, 22 Feb 2006 17:37:37 EST

>

>In a message dated 2/22/06 2:18:30 PM, acudoc11 writes:

>

> > Does anyone really believe that JAHCO will ever allow any OM licensee

>into

> > a

> > hospital?

> >

>

>Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Hospital here in NYC sent out a job

>notification for a full-time acupuncturist last fall. They wanted a

>minimum of 5 yrs

>in the field and said degrees in nursing or PT were a plus but not a

>necessity

>for the job. I do not know who got the job, or the salary.

>

>I don't know if it really means much, but PCOM-NY has internships at St.

>Vincent's Hospital here in Manhattan, as well as at NYU Medical

>Center/Hospital

>for Special Surgery, and at a hospital in the Bronx.

>

>--roseanne s.

>

February 23, 2006

Richard,

I spoke with a practitioner in FL who allows med students from both DO and

MD programs to observe her in practice. She is in the process of being

allowed to follow the DO's in clinic in the near future and has a very good

relationship with the program supervisor. She felt it was only fair. The

MD's appear to be another issue.

The DAOM was not meant to be entry level but post-graduate. ACAOM has

recently been finalizing standards for an entry level doctoral program that

will no doubt be released soon. The only thing that comes to mind as far as

regional accreditation is for the non-OM classes otherwise it makes no sense

to me. I could be wrong as to what this all means so be free to correct me.

The only program's that come to mind are multi-disciplinary programs such

as SCUHS and NWHSU that offer chiropractic as well. Bastyr migh also be as

well. This only makes to me if we want to have a much stronger program with

more integration of western science.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>acudoc11

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Re: I'm going to make Asian Medicine more popular but...

>Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:16:53 EST

>

>Mike

>

>The primary problem is that the DAOM doesn't appear to really be an entry

>level doctor degree that is needed in order to move the profession

>forward. The

>only real deal will be a Regionally Accredited entry level

>Doctor/Physician

>OM Degree.

>

>Does anyone really believe that JAHCO will ever allow any OM licensee into

>a

>hospital?

>

>We have such a foolish person here in Florida who is touting that she wants

>to follow the MD she works for in his practice, around the Breast Cancer

>ward.

>

>What a bill of goods she is being told/sold. JAHCO will NEVER allow it nor

>will the hospital administrators. And if they do at some point ........you

>can

>bet that that individual will be extremely subservient in function and pay

>and there will be very few of them around.

>

>Richard

>

> In a message dated 02/22/06 1:34:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

>naturaldoc1 writes:

>

>Richard,

>

>Well spoken. I often wonder if our collective profession is ready to

>accept

>that various forces, ie the medical/insurance industry, will try

>everything

>to stay alive and maintain power. Downsizing of their monopoly will

>create

>more struggle within them and tend to reduce our ops within them. On a

>side

>note, I think that the collaborations (w/DAOM programs) of various OM

>schools with hospitals stands to help us in this. Creating more options

>is

>a good thing for all of us.

>

>Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

February 23, 2006

Freddy,

Congrats. Can you tell us if you have any other designation other then your

OM training?

This is how we keep working to

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>freddy jente <drschnitzelheimer

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Re: I'm going to make Asian Medicine more popular but...

>Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:44:39 -0800 (PST)

>

>Hi there, I am going to be one of the fellows working

>at St Vincent's Hospital in NYC. I will writing in

>occasionally to inform you all on its' progress. We

>start in 2 weeks.

>

>Freddy Jente

>

>--- ra6151 wrote:

>

> >

> > In a message dated 2/22/06 2:18:30 PM,

> > acudoc11 writes:

> >

> > > Does anyone really believe that JAHCO will ever

> > allow any OM licensee into

> > > a

> > > hospital?

> > >

> >

> > Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Hospital here in NYC

> > sent out a job

> > notification for a full-time acupuncturist last

> > fall. They wanted a minimum of 5 yrs

> > in the field and said degrees in nursing or PT were

> > a plus but not a necessity

> > for the job. I do not know who got the job, or the

> > salary.

> >

> > I don't know if it really means much, but PCOM-NY

> > has internships at St.

> > Vincent's Hospital here in Manhattan, as well as at

> > NYU Medical Center/Hospital

> > for Special Surgery, and at a hospital in the Bronx.

> >

> > --roseanne s.

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> >

>

February 23, 2006

In a message dated 2/23/06 10:01:33 AM, naturaldoc1 writes:

> I am blown away

> when I read that graduates do not know billing codes or how to fill out the

> insurance form. We should be expert in all areas of our profession.

>

I agree with you, Mike. We had 2 different business courses at my school,

and still the business side is a challenge. On the other hand, I think this

same phenomenon shows up in many professions - many people get degrees in

subjects that never become a way of making a living, including other professions

such as law, architecture, the arts...just to name a few that I am familiar

with.

---roseanne

February 23, 2006

In a message dated 2/23/2006 10:42:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

ra6151 writes:

I agree with you, Mike. We had 2 different business courses at my

school,

and still the business side is a challenge.

Many colleges offer MD's a night course for a MBA.

Medicine is a business.

February 23, 2006

Unless one wants to do this as a hobby, it is important to be aware of the

business side of things. I am familiar with too many graduates who never

take on full-time practice. It is very problematic and a bad sign that

maybe something is wrong with the non-TCM side of their education. This is

an aside but I feel that we need to better prepare graduates with more

business ideas and info on how to start and run a practice. I am blown away

when I read that graduates do not know billing codes or how to fill out the

insurance form. We should be expert in all areas of our profession.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>KarateStan

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Re: I'm going to make Asian Medicine more popular but...

>Wed, 22 Feb 2006 19:28:30 EST

>

>In a message dated 2/22/2006 2:43:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

>yorkstreet.clinic writes:

>

>Unfortunately true, for many so called Doctors or healers it is about the

>money and not the patient. If they were truly looking at patient needs

>they

>would be supporting anything that helped not opposing us or other healing

>arts.

>

>I went to cancer seminar taught by a MD, he stated " unfortunately medicine

>is a business " .

>

February 23, 2006

I also have a master in nutrition and Chinese Herbal

Medicine.

This should be a pretty big step for all of us. Wish

strength and lots of Qi.

freddy

--- mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

> Freddy,

> Congrats. Can you tell us if you have any other

> designation other then your

> OM training?

> This is how we keep working to

>

> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

> >freddy jente <drschnitzelheimer

> >

> Chinese Medicine

> >Chinese Medicine

> >Re: Re: I'm going to make Asian

> Medicine more popular but...

> >Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:44:39 -0800 (PST)

> >

> >Hi there, I am going to be one of the fellows

> working

> >at St Vincent's Hospital in NYC. I will writing in

> >occasionally to inform you all on its' progress. We

> >start in 2 weeks.

> >

> >Freddy Jente

> >

> >--- ra6151 wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > In a message dated 2/22/06 2:18:30 PM,

> > > acudoc11 writes:

> > >

> > > > Does anyone really believe that JAHCO will

> ever

> > > allow any OM licensee into

> > > > a

> > > > hospital?

> > > >

> > >

> > > Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Hospital here in

> NYC

> > > sent out a job

> > > notification for a full-time acupuncturist last

> > > fall. They wanted a minimum of 5 yrs

> > > in the field and said degrees in nursing or PT

> were

> > > a plus but not a necessity

> > > for the job. I do not know who got the job, or

> the

> > > salary.

> > >

> > > I don't know if it really means much, but

> PCOM-NY

> > > has internships at St.

> > > Vincent's Hospital here in Manhattan, as well as

> at

> > > NYU Medical Center/Hospital

> > > for Special Surgery, and at a hospital in the

> Bronx.

> > >

> > > --roseanne s.

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > removed]

> > >

> >

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at

> Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

>

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

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> and adjust accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any

> duplication outside the group requires prior

> permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this

> message if absolutely necessary.

>

February 25, 2006

Not sure what you want us to get from this article you sent but in truth

hospitals in some parts of the country are using LAc. It is true that some

are dually licensed and others may come from MD backgrounds. I have

previously mentioned that some US TCM programs have agreements for students

to do internship hours and even treatment in hospital or outpatient clinics.

This is a big step in the right direction, as far as the future of the

profession is concerned. This will also bring down barriers to our

participation in these settings.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

February 25, 2006

mike Bowser wrote:

> Unless one wants to do this as a hobby, it is important to be aware of the

> business side of things. I am familiar with too many graduates who never

> take on full-time practice. It is very problematic and a bad sign that

> maybe something is wrong with the non-TCM side of their education. This is

> an aside but I feel that we need to better prepare graduates with more

> business ideas and info on how to start and run a practice. I am blown away

> when I read that graduates do not know billing codes or how to fill out the

> insurance form.

Hi Mike!

I have been looking for instructions on how to fill out the insurance

form. To begin with, I haven't seen two alike . . .

Regards,

Pete

February 25, 2006

Here is a state link that shows how to fill out the new CMA-1500 form.

http://www.dhs.state.mn.us/main/groups/business_partners/documents/pub/dhs_id_01\

0115.hcsp

If you want an electronically fillable form that you can print out instead

of having to write-in, check out www.cigna.com and look for forms. They

have updated with the newer form.

Hope this helps.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>petetheisen <petetheisen

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Re: I'm going to make Asian Medicine more popular but...

>Sat, 25 Feb 2006 04:16:14 -0500

>

>mike Bowser wrote:

> > Unless one wants to do this as a hobby, it is important to be aware of

>the

> > business side of things. I am familiar with too many graduates who

>never

> > take on full-time practice. It is very problematic and a bad sign that

> > maybe something is wrong with the non-TCM side of their education. This

>is

> > an aside but I feel that we need to better prepare graduates with more

> > business ideas and info on how to start and run a practice. I am blown

>away

> > when I read that graduates do not know billing codes or how to fill out

>the

> > insurance form.

>

>Hi Mike!

>

>I have been looking for instructions on how to fill out the insurance

>form. To begin with, I haven't seen two alike . . .

>

>Regards,

>

>Pete

February 25, 2006

My chiro program has us taking business courses from the beginning and these

involve public speaking.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>KarateStan

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Re: I'm going to make Asian Medicine more popular but...

>Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:56:33 EST

>

>In a message dated 2/23/2006 10:42:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

>ra6151 writes:

>

>I agree with you, Mike. We had 2 different business courses at my

>school,

>and still the business side is a challenge.

>

>Many colleges offer MD's a night course for a MBA.

>Medicine is a business.

>

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