I'm going to make Asian Medicine more popular but...

February 13, 2006

I need to know some things first.

How is Asian Medicine perceived by our prospective clients?

How do we wish to be preceived?

What is our core message?

Who are we?

What business are we in?

What people do we serve?

What are the special needs of the people we serve?

With whom are we competing?

What makes us different from our competitors?

What unique benfit does a client derive from our service?

Kelvin

February 13, 2006

Dear Z'ev

In a message dated 2/13/2006 10:24:04 A.M. Central Standard Time,

zrosenbe writes:

> With whom are we competing?

No one. Chinese medicine is self-cultivation and dedication. When

practiced as a way of life, not just a profession, one's dedication

becomes apparent to potential patients/clients.

I must say, with all respect, that Chinese medicine does compete with

Western medicine. While the rest of your replies, Z'ev are excellent and

eloquent,

consider that the person who is not committed to Chinese medicine only knows

that he has a condition (low back pain, depression, hepatitis... whatever)

and wants to have a treatment that works.

In that sense, you are competing with Western medicine for the attention,

the dollars and the patronage of that person or class of persons.

Given the great start that the rest of your answers are to the fundamental

question, this one error could put your efforts off course.

Guy Porter

February 13, 2006

On Feb 13, 2006, at 12:09 AM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

> I need to know some things first.

>

> How is Asian Medicine perceived by our prospective clients?

It depends on how we perceive our own practice. My own patients

perceive Chinese medicine as either a clear alternative to

biomedicine, or as a compliment to it.

> How do we wish to be preceived?

As confident practitioners of a medical tradition that works for many

conditions and situations.

> What is our core message?

The body and mind have self-healing powers that can be enhanced,

awakened and put to work with the tools of Chinese medicine

> Who are we?

Dedicated practitioners of a 2000 year old medical tradition who use

the medical philosophy of millenia to treat the illnesses of today.

> What business are we in?

The business of preventative health and illness resolution

> What people do we serve?

That aspect of the public who want full attention, time, and care,

and intelligent participation and responsibility for their own health

care

> What are the special needs of the people we serve?

They see health and disease as potentials for growth and self-

awareness, as messages from the body and mind letting them know when

they are losing equilibrium.

> With whom are we competing?

No one. Chinese medicine is self-cultivation and dedication. When

practiced as a way of life, not just a profession, one's dedication

becomes apparent to potential patients/clients.

> What makes us different from our competitors?

See above.

> What unique benfit does a client derive from our service?

Gaining the tools to maintain and cultivate one's own health and

awareness.

>

> Kelvin

>

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February 13, 2006

Guy,

If we perceive what we do as competitive with WM, we will lose

hands down. Too much political and economic imbalance. We need to

strengthen our own hand by deepening our knowledge and conviction in

what we do.

On the other hand, I agree we need a stronger, clearer more

definitive political presence, with individuals who are clear about

what it is we actually do in this field. I am not saying we should

lie down and play dead.

Our greatest advocates are our patients who actually benefit from

the work we do. There are so many people who are into our medicine,

despite all the negative press and media whitewash.

Sorry, I don't feel like I am competing with anyone, in this

field or any other. There are certain people I can help, and I get

to them by the recommendations of other people that I help.

On Feb 13, 2006, at 8:41 AM, DrGRPorter wrote:

> I must say, with all respect, that Chinese medicine does compete with

> Western medicine. While the rest of your replies, Z'ev are

> excellent and eloquent,

> consider that the person who is not committed to Chinese medicine

> only knows

> that he has a condition (low back pain, depression, hepatitis...

> whatever)

> and wants to have a treatment that works.

>

> In that sense, you are competing with Western medicine for the

> attention,

> the dollars and the patronage of that person or class of persons.

>

> Given the great start that the rest of your answers are to the

> fundamental

> question, this one error could put your efforts off course.

>

> Guy Porter

February 13, 2006

Thanks for you perspective Z'ev, can you think about other ares of the

US where you perspective won't be so black and white?

Who are we?

Any more perspectives from others? Are we seen as Doctor wanna be's?

Shamans? Bipolar cat people?

If we have no competition then why are we usually the last to be seen

after MD's, Chiro's, and physios?

Do you take western diseases and look up the Chinese equivalent of

that disease or do you keep it Chinese?

Are all you pulses slipper wiry or can you detect excess earth in the

GB and deficient water in the liver?

Do you use R.I.C.E. on a sprained ankle or do you know how to make a

plaster that cools and invigorates.

I'm going to do an advertising campain to let people know that there

is an option of seeing us first. This is to find out who us is, so to

speak.

Kelvin

Chinese Medicine ,

" acupuncturebeverlyhills " <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

>

> I need to know some things first.

>

> How is Asian Medicine perceived by our prospective clients?

> How do we wish to be preceived?

> What is our core message?

> Who are we?

> What business are we in?

> What people do we serve?

> What are the special needs of the people we serve?

> With whom are we competing?

> What makes us different from our competitors?

> What unique benfit does a client derive from our service?

>

> Kelvin

>

February 14, 2006

In a message dated 2/14/2006 2:45:47 A.M. Central Standard Time,

writes:

I agree fully with Mr. Rosenberg in all previous points made as well as

this one! Competing with WM is the giving way to a more mechanistic

approach towards health care - Competing with WM will force us into

becoming mechanics (by all means, we need those too) since competition

is tough and on top of that it will be a losing battle as Mr. Rosenberg

points out.

I think that maybe we should define what we mean by competition.

Consider that one is in competition with WM if for any dollar of health care

spending not yet allocated if the patient (allocator) has to make a choice

between WM and TCM. Thus, I described a case where the person with an illness

had no previous contact with TCM and had to choose a doctor.

Of course I agree that what we do is very different from WM. Of course I

agree that TCM, with it's non mechanistic approach to human health is superior.

But this is not the issue meant by " competition. " You are speaking well of TCM

because you are bathed in it, you are surrounded by it, you are committed to

it.

I think the " competition " aspect that first started in this thread has to do

with how we reach people who have very little experience with or commitment

to TCM.

If in this economic or marketing (dare I say it?) sense of the word, you

believe you are not in competition, we'll not do very well as a group. And I

think that this is some of the essence of what Rachel (RIP) had to say in

between invectives.

So, while I agree that TCM is quite distinct and in many cases superior to

WM, to say it is not in " competition " in the marketing sense of the word would

be incorrect. Thus, a Porsche dealership does in a sense compete with a GM

dealership, but of course, there is no comparison if you are a Porsche

enthusiast. On the other hand, there are people who have not purchased a car and

must decide between the two.

Guy Porter

February 14, 2006

Gentlemen,

I agree fully with Mr. Rosenberg in all previous points made as well as

this one! Competing with WM is the giving way to a more mechanistic

approach towards health care - Competing with WM will force us into

becoming mechanics (by all means, we need those too) since competition

is tough and on top of that it will be a losing battle as Mr. Rosenberg

points out.

If we take advantage of the true strength of CM - that of empowering of

people - we can develop our own niche and the people who needs us will

come! At least that's how it was in my case. And as Mr. Rosenberg I - no

longer - feel that I am competing. How can I when I have something so

unique to offer people - that no one else have, being a part of many

generations of tradition bearers efforts in developing this special and

wonderful (scientific) art of CM.

Humbly,

Thomas Sorensen

L.Ac.

is not about disease it is about life.

skrev:

> Guy,

> If we perceive what we do as competitive with WM, we will lose

> hands down. Too much political and economic imbalance. We need to

> strengthen our own hand by deepening our knowledge and conviction in

> what we do.

> On the other hand, I agree we need a stronger, clearer more

> definitive political presence, with individuals who are clear about

> what it is we actually do in this field. I am not saying we should

> lie down and play dead.

> Our greatest advocates are our patients who actually benefit from

> the work we do. There are so many people who are into our medicine,

> despite all the negative press and media whitewash.

> Sorry, I don't feel like I am competing with anyone, in this

> field or any other. There are certain people I can help, and I get

> to them by the recommendations of other people that I help.

>

> On Feb 13, 2006, at 8:41 AM, DrGRPorter wrote:

>

>> I must say, with all respect, that Chinese medicine does compete with

>> Western medicine. While the rest of your replies, Z'ev are

>> excellent and eloquent,

>> consider that the person who is not committed to Chinese medicine

>> only knows

>> that he has a condition (low back pain, depression, hepatitis...

>> whatever)

>> and wants to have a treatment that works.

>>

>> In that sense, you are competing with Western medicine for the

>> attention,

>> the dollars and the patronage of that person or class of persons.

>>

>> Given the great start that the rest of your answers are to the

>> fundamental

>> question, this one error could put your efforts off course.

>>

>> Guy Porter

>>

>

February 20, 2006

I agreee with Zev's comments completely. We will lose if we are in

competition with WM. WM has a place, emergeny care. My first window of

healing is alternative care, and I will even go to an MD that leans this

way (however most are no where near my house). There have been times in

my life when WM came in an saved the day (once a child).

Many people have a deep trust in it and others are starting to move away

from it, and still keep a foot in the door. We have to play along with

that. Definetly follow the rules and keep supporting patients in their

jouney to get well and stay well, at all levels - body, mind and spirit.

Anne

wrote:

> Guy,

> If we perceive what we do as competitive with WM, we will lose

> hands down. Too much political and economic imbalance. We need to

> strengthen our own hand by deepening our knowledge and conviction in

> what we do.

> On the other hand, I agree we need a stronger, clearer more

> definitive political presence, with individuals who are clear about

> what it is we actually do in this field. I am not saying we should

> lie down and play dead.

> Our greatest advocates are our patients who actually benefit from

> the work we do. There are so many people who are into our medicine,

> despite all the negative press and media whitewash.

> Sorry, I don't feel like I am competing with anyone, in this

> field or any other. There are certain people I can help, and I get

> to them by the recommendations of other people that I help.

>

> On Feb 13, 2006, at 8:41 AM, DrGRPorter wrote:

>

> > I must say, with all respect, that Chinese medicine does compete with

> > Western medicine. While the rest of your replies, Z'ev are

> > excellent and eloquent,

> > consider that the person who is not committed to Chinese medicine

> > only knows

> > that he has a condition (low back pain, depression, hepatitis...

> > whatever)

> > and wants to have a treatment that works.

> >

> > In that sense, you are competing with Western medicine for the

> > attention,

> > the dollars and the patronage of that person or class of persons.

> >

> > Given the great start that the rest of your answers are to the

> > fundamental

> > question, this one error could put your efforts off course.

> >

> > Guy Porter

>

February 20, 2006

Kelvin

Here in Florida the HEAT is on to REMOVE our titles and THEN SOME.

A very FEW of us are doing ALL the defense while the masses of practitioners

sit on their asses.

In the END there will be no one to blame but THEMSELVES.

The allopaths are good at turning us against each other and other

practitioners, such as Chiros etc.

The system infiltrates our associations via lawyers & lobbyists who are

beholden to THEM. They rack up huge bills which the memberships can't pay and

ultimately will be flushing our practice scopes DOWN the TOILET.

And those infiltrated acupuncture/om organizations SELL a 'bill of goods' of

nothing but lullaby stories.......telling us not to worry....and that

everything will be all right.

My response IS....MAKE those AP/OM orgs which have been infiltrated along

with the state or federal legislators give all practitioners a WRITTEN

GUARANTEE. Of course the response will be.....'oh we can't guarantee anything'.

And therein LIES the TRUTH. Acupuncture & Oriental medicine is about to

become more subservient in the US than its ever been. We are not even

addressing

the issue being reimbursed by insurance.

The system as it exists doesn't like or want anyone who has their own cash

register. You either work for them or STARVE or worse yet...be put out of

business. Its that simple. It is ALL about money.

Richard A. Freiberg, OMD, AP

In a message dated 02/20/06 2:58:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

acupuncturebeverlyhills writes:

It's great that you are in a place where you feel that you don't have

to compete with anyone. So maybe this topic doesn't concern you.

Would you feel different if there was a bill being passed saying you

had to be AMA certified to do acupuncture in CA? Some insurance

companys already say you need to be a " Acupuncture Physician " .

For the rest of us please go back to the original thread and let me

know what you think.

You may believe you are not competing but I'll tell you they are

competing against us. Read this article and it tells about the money

at stake. Re-read the first sentence.

http://www.locateadoc.com/articles.cfm/672/217

Kelvin

February 20, 2006

It's great that you are in a place where you feel that you don't have

to compete with anyone. So maybe this topic doesn't concern you.

Would you feel different if there was a bill being passed saying you

had to be AMA certified to do acupuncture in CA? Some insurance

companys already say you need to be a " Acupuncture Physician " .

For the rest of us please go back to the original thread and let me

know what you think.

You may believe you are not competing but I'll tell you they are

competing against us. Read this article and it tells about the money

at stake. Re-read the first sentence.

http://www.locateadoc.com/articles.cfm/672/217

Kelvin

Chinese Medicine , " "

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Guy,

> If we perceive what we do as competitive with WM, we will lose

> hands down. Too much political and economic imbalance. We need to

> strengthen our own hand by deepening our knowledge and conviction in

> what we do.

> On the other hand, I agree we need a stronger, clearer more

> definitive political presence, with individuals who are clear about

> what it is we actually do in this field. I am not saying we should

> lie down and play dead.

> Our greatest advocates are our patients who actually benefit from

> the work we do. There are so many people who are into our medicine,

> despite all the negative press and media whitewash.

> Sorry, I don't feel like I am competing with anyone, in this

> field or any other. There are certain people I can help, and I get

> to them by the recommendations of other people that I help.

>

> On Feb 13, 2006, at 8:41 AM, DrGRPorter wrote:

>

> > I must say, with all respect, that Chinese medicine does compete with

> > Western medicine. While the rest of your replies, Z'ev are

> > excellent and eloquent,

> > consider that the person who is not committed to Chinese medicine

> > only knows

> > that he has a condition (low back pain, depression, hepatitis...

> > whatever)

> > and wants to have a treatment that works.

> >

> > In that sense, you are competing with Western medicine for the

> > attention,

> > the dollars and the patronage of that person or class of persons.

> >

> > Given the great start that the rest of your answers are to the

> > fundamental

> > question, this one error could put your efforts off course.

> >

> > Guy Porter

>

February 21, 2006

What if. . . .(there was a bill, etc.)

means absolutely nothing. We can come up with all kinds of doomsday

scenarios. As Ron Rosen, my colleague in Colorado pointed out, 25

years ago in Colorado we practiced with no licensing to speak of, we

were not allowed to advertise, and competed with M.D.'s and D.C.'s

with 50-100 hours training. Both Ron and I were able to build up

very large practices on word of mouth, and we lobbied successfully

for a licensing bill in Colorado 20 years ago when we served in

succession as presidents of the Acupuncture Association of Colorado.

As I said in my original post, I am not saying we have to lie down

and play dead. I am all in favor of skillful political action. I

just think as a profession we still have a lot to learn on that

level. Here in California, we've had years of acupuncture

associations 'crying wolf' to the point that it is hard to know when

there is something serious at stake or not.

On competition, I was speaking about the marketplace in general, and

how one targets who you will be at service to. Word of mouth is

still the best way to get new patients, ones who you can help, and

those that you are comfortable treating. Most physicians and

chiropractors cannot afford to spend an hour with a patient and make

ends meet. Many patients want the individual care and personal

attention that a practitioner of Chinese medicine can and should

give, if they want to give quality health care.

On Feb 20, 2006, at 11:47 AM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

> It's great that you are in a place where you feel that you don't have

> to compete with anyone. So maybe this topic doesn't concern you.

> Would you feel different if there was a bill being passed saying you

> had to be AMA certified to do acupuncture in CA? Some insurance

> companys already say you need to be a " Acupuncture Physician " .

February 21, 2006

Z'ev I really appreciate where you coming from, but your reality is

not mine. I'm trying to get acupuncture as a first choice for

helthcare in the U.S. and Canada. I see to many people with a

shopping bag of meds (most are for the side effects of their meds) who

if they had seen someone like you or me 5 or ten years ago they

wouldn't be in that condition. Word of mouth in my backyard will not

acomplish this.

I tired of seeing MD's on TV giving comentary on when

a positive study on the effects of acupuncture comes out.

Read this.

Acupuncture

Definition: Acupuncture is the practice of ancient Chinese needle

stimulation based upon the occultic religion of Taoism.

Founder: Unknown; the traditional Chinese text is The Yellow

Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine.

How Does it Claim to Work?: Acupuncture claims to work by stimulating

acupuncture points with needles, supposedly permitting the cosmic

energy of the universe (chi) to flow freely through the body organs

and systems, maintaining health.

Scientific Evaluation: Disputed, but largely discredited; while its

Taoism is ignored in scientific studies, these studies have yet to

demonstrate acupuncture's effectiveness scientifically. A definitive

three-year study released in 1991 concluded acupuncture was nothing

more than, at best, a powerful placebo.

Occultic Potential: Taoist practice and philosophy; psychic

practitioners; meditative programs and other occultic practices used

in conjunction with acupuncture therapy.

Major Problem(s): Acupuncture works on the basis of psychological,

religious, or occultic principles, not scientific ones or its own

stated theories.

Biblical/Christian Evaluation: Classical acupuncture involves the

practice of an ancient pagan medicine inseparably tied to Taoism.

Potential Dangers: Needle stimulation has occasionally produced

physical complications and injuries, some serious; misdiagnosis of a

serious illness; occult influence.

The National Council Against Health Fraud has concluded:

* Acupuncture is an unproven modality of treatment.

* Its theory and practice are based on primitive and fanciful

concepts of health and disease that bear no relationship to present

scientific knowledge

* Research during the past 20 years has not demonstrated that

acupuncture is effective against any disease.

* Perceived effects of acupuncture are probably due to a

combination of expectation, suggestion, counter-irritation,

conditioning, and other psychologic mechanisms.

* The use of acupuncture should be restricted to appropriate

research settings,

* Insurance companies should not be required by law to cover

acupuncture treatment,

* Licensure of lay acupuncturists should be phased out.

* Consumers who wish to try acupuncture should discuss their

situation with a knowledgeable physician who has no commercial interest.

Now, do a google search on acupuncture and quack and see what you get.

There's a big back yard out there and it's not all southern

California's " Love and the Light " .

Kelvin

Chinese Medicine , " "

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> What if. . . .(there was a bill, etc.)

>

> means absolutely nothing. We can come up with all kinds of doomsday

> scenarios. As Ron Rosen, my colleague in Colorado pointed out, 25

> years ago in Colorado we practiced with no licensing to speak of, we

> were not allowed to advertise, and competed with M.D.'s and D.C.'s

> with 50-100 hours training. Both Ron and I were able to build up

> very large practices on word of mouth, and we lobbied successfully

> for a licensing bill in Colorado 20 years ago when we served in

> succession as presidents of the Acupuncture Association of Colorado.

>

> As I said in my original post, I am not saying we have to lie down

> and play dead. I am all in favor of skillful political action. I

> just think as a profession we still have a lot to learn on that

> level. Here in California, we've had years of acupuncture

> associations 'crying wolf' to the point that it is hard to know when

> there is something serious at stake or not.

>

> On competition, I was speaking about the marketplace in general, and

> how one targets who you will be at service to. Word of mouth is

> still the best way to get new patients, ones who you can help, and

> those that you are comfortable treating. Most physicians and

> chiropractors cannot afford to spend an hour with a patient and make

> ends meet. Many patients want the individual care and personal

> attention that a practitioner of Chinese medicine can and should

> give, if they want to give quality health care.

>

> On Feb 20, 2006, at 11:47 AM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

>

> > It's great that you are in a place where you feel that you don't have

> > to compete with anyone. So maybe this topic doesn't concern you.

> > Would you feel different if there was a bill being passed saying you

> > had to be AMA certified to do acupuncture in CA? Some insurance

> > companys already say you need to be a " Acupuncture Physician " .

>

February 21, 2006

Kelvin

There are those individuals who - rightfully so - wish to protect the roots

and western development of oriental medicine and thats important and

great.......as it should be.

At the same time they have no interest in doing the work we are doing. They

also have no idea of the reality that we are in (circa 2006) and the 60's and

70's are long gone..never to return.

The polticial climate of today is totally different than even from just a few

years ago.

They can remain with heads burried in the sand (their reality) but if the

profession as a whole doesn't succeed in the battle that is at hand..........the

profession will NEVER survive as they envision it.

Some speak about not caring to be included in insurance reimbursement but the

system doesn't even want AP/OM to even have its own cash register. Just see

what happened in California regarding their ability to diagnose and treat

illness and injury and watch that erode even further. I believe that California

licensees also LOST a bundle in Workers Comp coverage. These people shouldn't be

putting down others like yourself who fighting another just as valuable

realistic battle.......maybe even more important.

Richard

n a message dated 2/21/2006 4:52:03 AM Eastern Standard Time,

acupuncturebeverlyhills writes:

Now, do a google search on acupuncture and quack and see what you get.

There's a big back yard out there and it's not all southern

California's " Love and the Light " .

Kelvin

February 21, 2006

I agree with everything you say. Again, my point was about the day-

to-day mindset of the Chinese medicine practitioner, vis a vis

competition with other CM practitioners, other health professionals.

We have to be clear about where we are coming from and what we have

to offer. Confidence and clarity go very far in attracting new

patients.

I also see many patients who are on too many medications, and have

many side effects, and would have benefitted from CM at an earlier

stage. I share the same frustrations, especially since twenty years

ago the situation was much less severe (with abuse of

pharmaceuticals). In America we are in a very difficult phase with

politics, media and the crisis of health care. I think that despite

everything, we have a lot to offer, and that there is a large

audience for us if we state our case clearly. In the end, our

profession exists because of public demand, nothing else.

On Feb 20, 2006, at 10:32 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

> Z'ev I really appreciate where you coming from, but your reality is

> not mine. I'm trying to get acupuncture as a first choice for

> helthcare in the U.S. and Canada. I see to many people with a

> shopping bag of meds (most are for the side effects of their meds) who

> if they had seen someone like you or me 5 or ten years ago they

> wouldn't be in that condition. Word of mouth in my backyard will not

> acomplish this.

> I tired of seeing MD's on TV giving comentary on when

> a positive study on the effects of acupuncture comes out.

February 21, 2006

In a message dated 2/21/2006 10:10:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

acudoc11 writes:

They can remain with heads burried in the sand (their reality) but if the

profession as a whole doesn't succeed in the battle that is at

hand..........the

profession will NEVER survive as they envision it.

The only way I see it is to go get your MD or DO license, and do it NOW.

February 21, 2006

Kelvin:

I have to tell you that I fully respect your zeal and commitment to making

Asian medicine more popular. I did that very thing where I practiced, and it

made a difference for a lot of people in my town and it definitely helped me

personally.

I hope you will do what you set out to do without waiting for approval or

agreement from " the list " as a whole. I encourage you to go out and do your

best.

You will most certainly thrive.

Guy Porter

February 21, 2006

No one was lumping anyone into any category.

Those of us who choose to champion the cause the way Kelvin and I do should

be supported just as much as those who wish to protect the roots and accurate

terminology. One without the other will make for a poor survival.

They both have their place.

The disease condition is getting worse and being cynical is not what is

needed regardless of where anyone has come from or what they did for the

profession yesterday/yesteryear.

Maybe in the past there were some shouting doom and gloom (way too soon) but

today that reality is stronger than ever. Just look at the AMA and local

web-sites. Look at the TV.....and SEE the move by allopathic medicine to WIPE

OUT anything and everything in its way.

What has been one's protected cubby-area of treating patients is not going

to be so safe much longer even though the public is clamoring for our services.

If collectively we don't wake up soon and support EACH OTHER......the future

for AP/OM is questionable.

One such resolution should more importantly address the silent apathetic

majority. Therein lies the real problem. Apathy appears to be a human condition

and not just in the AP/OM profession.

Richard Freiberg

First of all, I don't see where anyone was putting Kelvin down for

his work. There are many types of individuals in this profession,

and each one has to do his or her part. I don't think everyone

should be the same or do the same thing in this or any other profession.

It is quite unfair of you to lump everyone who 'are protecting the

roots of the medicine' as having their heads in the sand. We choose

our battles and do our best. I myself 'did my time', spending quite

a bit of time in state legislatures in New Mexico and Colorado,

working on licensure bills and other issues. If I choose to

concentrate on other issues right now, such as accurate

terminological representation of our medical tradition, I or others

like me should not have to bear being branded as escapists.

I would say that the track record of political action here in

California has been largely counterproductive, as a profession we've

shot ourselves in the foot too many times. An unresponsive

acupuncture board, and an ongoing fatuous war between the

practitioners' associations and the schools has blown a lot of the

gains that were made earlier on. You can't blame apathy for a lot of

the mistakes made here, it is sheer political incompetence.

An 'us versus them' mentality, 'sky is falling' mentality in

California has led to divisiveness within the profession here, so if

I seem a bit cynical at time about political action, this may be one

reason why.

February 21, 2006

Chinese Medicine , " "

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> I also see many patients who are on too many medications, and have

> many side effects, and would have benefitted from CM at an earlier

> stage. I share the same frustrations, especially since twenty years

> ago the situation was much less severe (with abuse of

> pharmaceuticals).

You want to get them before the drugs, they want them on the drugs.

You are competing and, it seems over the last twenty years, you are

losing.

> In the end, our

> profession exists because of public demand, nothing else.

>

This is why I'm going to make Asian Medicine more popular.

>

Kelvin

February 21, 2006

Actually, I think we are winning. Small victories. Every patient

that gets well, or is less dependent on medications is a victory.

Let's not be grandiose about it.

On Feb 21, 2006, at 11:53 AM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

>

> You want to get them before the drugs, they want them on the drugs.

> You are competing and, it seems over the last twenty years, you are

> losing.

February 21, 2006

Chinese Medicine , " "

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Actually, I think we are winning. Small victories. Every patient

> that gets well, or is less dependent on medications is a victory.

>Let's not be grandiose about it.

Well, the other Z've, said this.

" especially since twenty years

ago the situation was much less severe (with abuse of

pharmaceuticals). "

We need to be grandiose, we need to be heard, to get the word out that

you can actually fix problems with Asia medicine and not just mask

them with drugs, we need to show that some incurable deseases can be

cured.

Small victories on Z'ev street, how wonderful they may be, isn't going

to do this.

To any one reading this, I'm not fighting or picking on Z've, I

respect his hard work and what he has done so far. I just believe it

is time for Asian Medicine to go main stream.

Kelvin

>

> On Feb 21, 2006, at 11:53 AM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

>

> >

> > You want to get them before the drugs, they want them on the drugs.

> > You are competing and, it seems over the last twenty years, you are

> > losing.

>

February 21, 2006